I have a guy who has let me do some hunting on his property for a number of years. He is a hard core deer hunter so he doesn’t let me hunt deer. Just things that don’t conflict with the deer season. I was able to get permission to hunt the property right next to his but this property holds no deer and only has a few trees. It’s legal to bait so I could throw out a pile of corn and lure the deer off of his property and probably have a chance at a good buck. The bait pile and stand will only be a few yards off of his fence line since that’s the only place that has any trees. Even then, there are only a few trees. If it weren’t for the bait pile, deer would rarely be on the property that I can legally hunt.
If I shoot a deer it will likely go back onto his property before it dies.
How many of you would be okay hunting like this?
Now why can't you set up a ground blind further away( a few hundred yards) and do a bait line from the property boundary to your set up?
If that’s the case, maybe they need a vocabulary lesson?
Simplest definition, “Ethical” means you’d be just as happy if the shoe were on the other foot.
So if you were allowing someone to hunt your property except for deer, how would you like to find out he was baiting the place next door?
Of course, the deer do not belong to him, so he should maybe wonder how his neighbors feel about him harboring an unusual number of deer on HIS place if those deer are feeding on THEIRS.... but that’s not necessarily the case here..
Doing what you’re asking about would put you in company you probably wouldn’t want to associate with.
The answer is yes I can hunt his property or no I can't, not "you can come to out house for thanksgiving but you can't eat anything."
Let me just say that I have never seen more poor sportsmanship in anything outdoors than when guys get caught up in trophy deer hunting. Don't let yourself get caught up in that racket.
Weird scenarios like this between hard core landowner/hunters start feuds that last for years.
I wouldn't do it here in kentucky because that would start a feud. You want your truck tires slashed and a 2 liter of coke poured into the gas tank...go for it.
I know many places like West Virginia, Upstate New York, Appalachian mountain KY and Virginia where an act like that would definitely start a battle.
NOOOO WAAAY! I'm out there to recreate, see nature and disconnect, not start a war.
I’ve seen some pics of your trophy room, JSW! This is purely hypothetical;-)
So that tells me this is either being done to him or someone he knows, not him doing it to someone else. Or he has a similar situation that he sees and is polling people to see if he's crazy in thinking that it's not ok...
Seriously... Some folks are so quick to judge...
As far as the OP question: No, I think it's not ok because the LO has paid it forward to the person by letting them hunt the land (turkeys), has no obligation to allow anyone to hunt deer on his land, and the guy setting up on the edge of his land is sticking it to someone who did him a favor, which is not how I was raised...
And redquebec, I couldn't disagree with you more. And who says they're friends? He called him "a guy," not a friend.
But if you're disagreeing with me on an act like that creating bad blood, that's been my family's experience. Luckily for me personally, I've never been on either side of such a scenario.
Sounds like bad ethics to me. However, if hypothetically, the two guys have a man to man conversation about it an agreement could be reached either way.
P&Y Club fair chase rules state if its legal in the state its ok for entry. What an individual does after that is on them.
Much of whitetail hunting is people management in addition to deer mgt.
In this situation it is cut and dry why I feel it shouldn’t be done. Only place to setup, he doesn’t want you deer hunting his land so he will likely see it for what it is, etc... However, if the line is the boundary, what is considered the boundary? His side, the side you’d be hunting, or a given distance from the line.
Seems most here have a problem with line setting. I would too in this instance. But, why does anyone else control where you set if you aren’t on their property? See my point? If it’s the only place to hunt the adjoining property, why does the other guy get so much preference over where it’s ethical to set? What’s the magical distance where it becomes acceptable. ?
I guess the best way to say it is does it matter the distance one sets from the line if their intent is to kill deer that the other person has feed, built habitat for, and planned on killing them selves?
Don’t blame you at all for being pissed, JSW. Pretty dick move on the guy’s part, IMO.
As hunters, we're often more about 'whatever it takes to succeed at our goals' and many times that involves pushing the limits of ethical behaviors toward neighbors, other hunters, and even our quarry.
As for the scenario described above, my personal ethics would prevent me from baiting (or plotting for that matter) to deliberately pull deer off the neighbor. There are some NJ guys leasing land next to my farm currently and their entire hunting strategy is based around spin-feeders and corn piles near neighboring land. 4-wheelers with sacks of corn on back and they look like they're running a feedlot for deer somewhere. But hey...it's the rut or gun season. They drove hours to get here. They just HAVE to get that big Ohio buck if at all possible. And I'm pretty sure they won't be hesitating to cross a boundary (quietly but still illegal) if a shot deer heads to the next farm.
Since he knew you and you were gracious enough to let him turkey and coyote hunt there, he should have, at the very least, spoken to you about his plans. Illegal trespassing to retrieve the deer was totally unacceptable.
Jim, if he had told you his plans first, what would you have said to him?
It would also make a difference knowing if the neighbor liked to hunt or not. If I knew for a fact that the neighbor had zero interest in the deer or hunting I would probably be ok with sitting near the line. If I knew he was a die hard habitat guy, hunter, and enthusiast I would feel guilty as hell sitting on his fence.
It would also make a difference knowing if the neighbor liked to hunt or not. If I knew for a fact that the neighbor had zero interest in the deer or hunting I would probably be ok with sitting near the line. If I knew he was a die hard habitat guy, hunter, and enthusiast I would feel guilty as hell sitting on his fence.
Unless the landowner on the other side of the fence was O.K. with retrieving a deer in his property...
Technically they aren’t breaking any laws (minus shooting multiple bucks in a one buck state) but I don’t like it any. I am completely at a loss here. Every year I remove snares on my side of the fence. Three years ago I hinge cut a 10’ wide swath of trees about 90% of the border. It created a pinch point at one end and they just relocated their stands. I didn’t want to cut off the entire travel between the two properties but may need to. This isn’t about them shooting deer because that doesn’t bother me it’s about them sitting where they do and the methods in which they hunt. I’m quite sure the same guy shoots multiple bucks (small ones to boot) and uses family members to tag them. It has caused me some anxiety for sure. I have considered an actual fence. I don’t hunt anywhere near the line and it’s some of my best cover. I don’t want to risk loosing a deer over the line. I don’t want to do anything malicious but any thoughts on a solution? I am leaning towards completing sealing off the travel between the two parcels and making prime bedding along the border so they bump deer into my property every time they get into stand. At the end of the day I don’t even care about the bait I just wish they would move off the line.
As far as RIT's situation, If you suspect they are illegally taking wild game I would try to come up with proof positive and then turn them in to the game authorities.
I have dealt with the same issues. I have a guy right over the fence with a feeder set up. I have the timber he has thick pasture.
I once found a stand in a tree on the fence line that was literally hanging over my property, and facing my property. No way could he shoot toward his side. I took it down and left it at the base of the tree. He took it out.
It is nice to have this perspective when you have a great piece of ground that has bottle necks, food sources, and plenty of deer.
How do you look at it when your only opportunity to hunt is on a marginal ground that is short of food and cover? how do you hunt?
I don't own hunting land, but I've been thinking about buying, so I pay attention. I hear a lot about how people sculpt their property into "whitetail heaven", by planting, cutting, etc. You could say that this is what that hunter was doing? He set up a stand in the best location available, and he provided a food source to attract deer. Isn't that the private land formula? Sure, it sounds like this hunter may have chosen the wrong property to start with, and his food source was questionable, but maybe he doesn't know any better, or has no other options?
I've ended relationships for far less than what that jackass did. Totally unacceptable in my book.
Not so much when there is good science behind it.
Fence-sitting..... Hooo-boy! How much uglier does it get?
Per my last post....
If you’re raising crops to make a living and the guy next door creates a whole bunch of bedding/cover area to hold deer that feed on your paycheck... that’s a pretty crappy neighbor.
But that shouldn’t be an insurmountable issue...
As hunters we only exist as long as public perception is neutral to positive about how we do things. When you walk onto a property and see a pile of corn the size of he average bedroom do you have a positive or negative reaction to that. How do you think the average farmer sees it? How do you think the average non hunter sees it? I've heard from farmers who are disgusted with it. The only way we survive is if we maintain a positive image among the non hunting public. Some things are socially acceptable and some things are not. 100 years ago you could buy opium and cocaine over the counter. Society decided that was not a good thing and took away the rights of the pharmacist to sell those things and the public to purchase them.
I think it's way more important to police ourselves and stand up when we see something that is bad for our image. Many things that were legal have been stopped because it was the ethical thing to do. Think about how the average Joe sees things, not what makes it easier to kill a deer.
Banning an ugly and questionable practice is not a slippery slope. It is a matter of survival. There are many things that are legal in some areas that will hurt us if we don't pay attention.
Well stated, my friend.
What about Texas, Oklahoma and the other states that allow baiting? Are they next on the list or will banning baiting in Kansas be enough?
This is a slippery slope as John points out. Trojan horse. Divide and conquer from within. The antis need only sit back and relax.
And if you’re going to argue about public perception.... Then you absolutely must include the image of bear baiting. You can’t tell me that the general public knows the difference between baiting for deer or bear. If someone in the general public hates one,, They hate both.......
Are you prepared to throw baiting for bears under the bus too ??
I see that you regularly hunt water for western game. Can you explain the ethical difference of hunting a water hole in a hot and arid climate where animals must come to the water.... and placing some corn on the ground and hunting over that ??
Like say, five yards from your private property that's set up to attract deer?
I'm sick of the "fighting amongst ourselves excuse". We routinely draw lines in the sand on what we will accept as fair chase. Was it divisive to ban spotlighting? High fence hunting? The poison bod? Shooting from a boat or moving vehicle? Things are either acceptable or they are not. When the majority of states say baiting is illegal, maybe we need to take a closer look. I entered this arena 6 years ago and spend the majority of my non hunting time researching and addressing issues that affect our heritage. If you don't think public perception is one of our biggest issues, then you aren't paying attention. As Fred Bear always said, "if you are not working to protect hunting or you are working to destroy it." I think this practice is harmful.
In a perfect world, we would all be courteous and polite to those on the other side of the lines, unfortunately it's not a perfect world and that is why laws exist. Heck, we can't even do that on the highway.
I own private land and I use it all the way to its borders. My land borders public land on three sides and while I may not particularly like it, the people that use that land have every right to use it all the way to the borders.
I've never stopped a person from retrieving a wounded deer on my land...as a matter of fact I've helped them drag. No deer, no matter how big or small, is worth the aggravation, at least not to me. If I see a hunter on the public land that borders mine, I will always try to let them know exactly where my stand is and request that they don't shoot directly toward me and I will do the same. I've never had a problem.
Also...... You said that your organization is not currently addressing the issue. Does your organization accept deer into your record books that were killed over bait ???
And, again, are you talking about banning baiting for big game?
Do you think the general non hunting public sees that difference ??? Do you think those non hunters think that bear baiting is acceptable because it’s needed as a management tool ??? I can’t tell you how many non hunters have made negative comments to me on hunting bears over a pile of donuts.
We try to justify what we do by making comparison to similar activities. Well this is okay so this is not really much different. By doing that, eventually you can justify just about anything. If a crossbow is alright in archery season, why not a muzzle loader? If that's alright, why not a rifle? We all draw lines in the sand. We have to or it gets out of control.
Animals in hot arid climates MUST go to the water holes if it doesn’t rain. How about cattle tanks of water..... ??? OK to hunt over them too ??? How do you know the public doesn’t take issue with that ???
Personally.... I think hunters that don’t like baiting for deer push the issue about the public perception of the practice.... Way more than any non hunters that I have ever talked to.
In contrast, I've put up 12' of chain link to keep guys from shooting across my fence where they had trimmed out the trees to do just that. The same neighbors bragged about shooting over the limit every year. I've put up no hunting signs in front of 2 round bails stacked up with a blind on top which was high enough to allow them to shoot over the trees onto my property. I've even found where they drove into my property to load up a deer that the shot on my property. I've dealt with all of this over the years. You do what you can to build mutual respect but it doesn't always work.
It's like a well off guy from the Somewhere Else that buys one hundred yards along a five mile trout river. A little cabin and his little slice of fly fishing respite. But soon he starts lobbying for a bait ban on the entire river. For the good of the fish and the river of course! Then works to turn it into a fly fishing only river, again for the good of the resource. He claims he really has no problem with the town kids riding their bikes out and chucking worms and bobbers next to his fenced property line. Or the locals parking at that spot across the river for a picnic and some fishing. But really, do they have to cook a fish from THIS river?? Nothing against eating a fish, but can't they eat one from some other water?
Lots of people claim that they want to grow hunting for the good of all hunters, but they sure don't mind throwing up roadblocks if it might infringe on their experience.
I own the property so it's OK for me to set up five yards from the line. But for the poor shmuck from town that will never have that, he shouldn't set up five yards on "his" (public) side of the line and utilize the means available to him? There's a word for that.
And JSW, you were the first to mention baiting in your own thread, so I believe it is on topic. Would you be on board with the Alberta model? Would you be on board to eliminate all baiting for all big game?
Bows just wound animals. hunting out of a treestand or blind is not real hunting, hunting from the ground is the only real hunting. Game cameras are an unfair advantage.
It can go on endlessly.
I own land in Oklahoma and a few week s ago I heard some people talking nearby and I got out of my stand and walked over to see what was going on. I found my neighbor about 20 yards from my fence, he had shot a deer was looking for it. His stand was located within 100 yards of my fence line and he had corn and a small throw and grow food plot. He was clearly hunting deer that were coming off my property and going over to him. What did I do? I jumped the fence and spent a couple of hours trying to help him find his deer. When we lost the trail, he decided to go get a dog to help find the deer, I told if the deer went on my land to just go ahead and cross the fence and find him. We will probably be friends and have a good relationship going forward.
I relate this story because let’s contrast that story to the story by the OP.
Hunter leases land and puts up tree stand and baits deer on his “land” in the best location. Hunter shoots deer on his land but it runs over to his neighbor’s land and dies 40 yards into the property. Hunter crosses fence to retrieve deer (should have asked permission). Neighbor finds out hunter has killed buck and retrieved it on his property. Neighbor is mad that the hunter did not ask permission to retrieve deer (rightfully so). Neighbor see’s bait pile and is mad hunter is baiting his deer. Neighbor tells hunter you cannot come on my land in the future to retrieve a deer. (This is the neighbor’s right but it is just going to waste the animal and possibly more than one).
Now when you read through all this a reasonable person may come to the conclusion that neighbor is mad that the hunter killed one of his deer and he is mad that he was baiting because he couldn’t have killed the deer without it. He wants to eliminate this possibility of the hunter killing his deer in the future by making it illegal to bait deer. So to accomplish this he just invokes the argument that non hunters don’t like baiting and therefore for the good of all hunters it should be illegal.
In reality baiting is currently a non-issue among non-hunters; there is deer corn and feeders in every small town, they don’t understand it and don’t really care. The only place I ever see it as an issue is among hunters, usually due to sanctimonious-elitists one side and Slob-jerks on the other that see no consequences in their actions.
Jim you came on here for validation of your position, I want you see both sides of the fence and not take lightly proposing to eliminate a legal hunting method, there are often unintended consequences from such actions.
Who showed his property potential to someone with lesser opportunities?
Who in effect tempted a weaker soul to the forbidden fruit? Torture perhaps!?
Sharing and giving are elements of transcending the human condition. You feel hurt and betrayed now without realizing you helped point that dagger at your heart yourself. A good host offers a friend guest the best he has be it food, shelter, clothing, ... deer. You hurt him first. You have to look at this beyond the material consequences. This is the story of Cain and Abel repeated becasue we are unable to learn and remember it.
I once took a friend to hunt on my property and put him in a spot with less opportunities. He knew that from my own prior bragging and he did not have a good time hunting. I felt awful about what I did. I invited him again and I had to insist for him to join me. When we got there I told him to go in the excellent spot and he killed a 10 point buck I missed on before few times. Not only I helped him find the buck and drag it out, but I felt great about it. I felt redeemed of my previous mistake. Our friendship is stronger today as we share.
I have not, and never will hunt there;-)
Imagine you're a non-hunting family going for a walk in the woods and you come across a pile of corn. You may be perplexed and you might even find the idea of baiting to kill a deer as not very fair once you figure it out.
On the same walk, your family comes across several barrels scattered about tethered with chains, food scraps, popcorn and doughnuts smelling like a Mcdonald's dumpster and one or two skinned beaver carcasses slowly turning in the breeze. All to kill a bear.
Which site do you think might be more offensive to that family?
Another thing to consider when contemplating banning someone else's activities is the repercussions to yourself. If landowners/leasee's successfully got rid of baiting, the baiters would be entirely justified in lobbying to have hunting within a certain distance of a food plot; then eventually within the same distance of any ag crops. And they WOULD lobby for that!
Now before you say ".. haha, I just won't plant food on my quarter." Well your east and west neighbours with poor ground that used to bait, now just till a four wide strip along each of their borders with you and plant a plot. If the buffer zone is three hundred yards, you can't hunt your own place. But they still each have three hundred yard wide swaths that they can hunt. Think what anti's could do on smaller parcels just by planting Cabelas Whitetail attractant in all four corners of ten acres. Or they could simply dump corn along your shared borders and tell you. And please don't go "..with the intent to hunt" angle. If you know there is bait there and you hunt there you'll still have to convince a CO and a judge that you're innocent of intent.
As always, be careful what you wish for.
And if government regulations get that ridiculous, we might just ignore them. I know folks still bait where it is illegal.
Are you saying that if the Government went so far as to say that you couldn’t place a bird feeder outside your house..... you would ignore it ?
I agree with Jim on this.
Chasing a wild animal, on it's terms, an ethical shot and meat for the freezer...that was my thought, maybe I'm different.
I’ll strive to keep my shots at 10-15 yards.
Seriously?!! Do you really believe this. There's a whole other half of this country east of the big river with little tiny properties and extremely overpopulated whitetail herds.
And these same people see the difference between a bait pile or bait broadcasted as they do habitat work which is much more similar to agriculture practices than baiting. They understand the cost differential, sweat equity and the similar way the animals interact with created habitat as they do agriculture.
As with the last class of each semester, I bring in a log of venison summer sausage from I deer I harvested and crackers to share with the class. They have to hear my talk on wildlife conservation, and how it relates to business and free markets. Robin and I have taken literally scores of kids to tour the farm, and some to learn to shoot firearms for the first time (parent required to be in attendance). I know first hand dozens of young men try hunting for the first time, others thank me for being open about my support of the outdoor sports.
JMO, but our image matters tremendously in regards to our future ability to continue hunting. And for me, it's really not about the hunting any longer, it is about nature and what we leave to future generations.
I do not support government ending baiting where it has been legal and is part of tradition. I do support government encouraging LOs and sports people to be more involved, and for us to continue being more educated in the best ways to secure not only the future of hunting, but what I believe is a national treasure-our diverse wildlife and native habitat.
So baiting is banned. The guy that has land goes along his merry way, plotting and shooting deer and the world is good. The guy that doesn't have land and because of work and family only has a few days per season, weekends or maybe one week that he can take for himself. He goes and sits in a tree where he used to sometimes get a deer, but now without the five gallons of corn, he sees nothing. So guess what? he loses interest and figures fishing and golf are more fun. That means he doesn't take his kids or neighbor kids anymore either.
"Ahh, my woods are peaceful without those baiters on the public next me.", says the landowner sitting over his plot.
Sure is. And the balance of non-hunter to hunter just became more uneven. Good for you for today. Not so much for "..the future of hunting" tomorrow.
Try putting yourself in the other guys shoes and sincerely try making his case.
Spend some time over on "Deer Builder" or QDM sites. "Growing deer'"and "Holding deer" is the main focus and nearly all the practitioners are deer hunters whose intent is to kill "quality" bucks. I have no problem with that and can see the satisfaction a person can derive from their work. It really is a hobby that can grip a person, no different than many other passions.
Just don't allow your passion to kill someone else's. Again, try your feet in the other shoes and see if they are still comfortable to wear.
And I also do not believe it is possible for nearly everyone to "sacrifice and buy land".
When one feels someone else's suffering as their own, and is able to rejoice in other peoples happiness as their own.
Frank. Is it self centered to sit over a cattle water tank for antelope ?? How about a water hole ?? If an antelope hunter doesn’t improve the antelope habitat in which he is hunting..... Is that self centered ???
That can apply to any other species as well. Look.... I think what you do with your Habitat Management is fantastic.... But I think that those who spend great amounts of time and money to do what you do tend to look down their noses at guys who don’t do what you do......... Calling other hunters self centered is no way to recruit others to do what you do.
My experience is that kids never really express a concern over types of hunting or methods, they just like to participate with whoever is willing to take them or give them a chance. The only times in my life I've ever heard complaints of baiting is on hunting forums. Never once have I heard an adult talk about a pile of corn who wasn't a hunter. I have many times heard non-hunting adults talk of wounded or lost deer due to archery. Maybe I'm just unlucky with that.
I still stand by my view that laws should not be made to appease a non-participating group's feelings. Laws should be based on data and management. I also still stand by the fact that you can't have it both ways. If you let them tell you that you can't bait because it hurts their feelings, you also have let them tell you what else hurts their feelings.
I agree with you that we should be wise with what we project. I get what you are saying and do a great deal to promote conservation and good practices. It seems ill-chosen pictures on social media can breed contempt in people who otherwise would never give hunting a second thought. I agree that image is important and should be carefully maintained, but it isn't a basis for laws regarding management.
Regarding woundings, my response is to ask if they have ever been to a slaughter house. They don't get it right there the first time always either. But we are obligated to try. Thanks.
I agree Chris, so quit insulting my intelligence by going along with someone just because they bait like you. If you are going to try and justify baiting to reduce herd numbers in an attempt to slow/stop the spread of CWD, don't look the other way when someone says they pass on numerous deer over bait. The most likely reason is they want a better deer, whatever better is in their mind.
The one talking down their noses is Kevin and the high number of snide remarks he has taken towards habitat managers. Though you have been complimentary, appreciated thank you, you have not pointed out his style is not a way to have people buy in. I get tired of the hypocrisy and double standards, and will call it out.
The stock tank argument doesn't work for me. You have land, you know how to get more deer if you want them. You want your cake (trees) and eat it to (deer). Life's tough, we make hard choices. I don't support baiting but in a few instances, not to include your type of situation. I also do not support the government dictating private land use unless there is a compelling reason to do so. I see no compelling reason, including herd health, for them to do so.
That position doesn't seem acceptable to you. I have to agree that baiting is OK. I don't for the many reasons discussed. Please accept that.
Yes, grab a chain saw, put some sweat equity in it and bring the wildlife to your slice of heaven.
He also said this; “If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” -Winston Churchill
Letting small freedoms be stripped, and fighting among ourselves is a sure way to feed an insurmountable enemy in the future. All laws and regulations should have considerable merit, and I will never tell someone how to hunt based on my preferences.
I have simply stated that is how I enjoy hunting deer.
If I were a public land only deer hunter..... would you see me as self centered if I do absolutely nothing to help to improve deer habitat.... All I do is buy a tag and go out hunting ???? If you don’t see that guy as self centered.... Then why am I self centered because I do the exact same thing as him but I put down 2 gallons of corn ???
As to passing on deer.... The only deer that I’m passing are deer that are too small to get enough venison from to justify killing that deer.... or a doe with fawns......
The rules of fair chase that we as members of B&C and P&Y commit to guide ourselves by is a higher standard than that of the general public. Wildlife laws are designed to manage people to conserve wildlife for the enjoyment and use of future generations. The above Items are not all illegal in all states for instance you can spotlight hogs in some states, high fence hunting is not illegal in all states, hunting from a moving vehicle may be legal on private property. The only thing listed that is universally illegal is the poison pod which uses a dangerous Federally controlled substance.
All of these methods are mentioned in the Rules of Fair Chase or Fair Chase Affidavit of either B&C or P&Y except Baiting. B&C has a webpage which discusses baiting but in the end leaves it up to the laws of the individual states, as I recall there are something like 22 or 23 states in which baiting is legal in some form.
I strongly advise against pursing a ban on baiting for deer in Kansas
1) There is no current or emanate controversies that threatens hunting in Kansas associated with baiting. 2) Thousands of hunters across the state use bait in a responsible and legal manner and enjoy the experience. 3) To do this you will have to bring the issue up with the Department of Wildlife and have public hearings 4) You will portray legal hunters in a negative light. 5) You will force the opposing side to counter attack and disparage your agenda. 6) You will likely attract an Anti-hunting element (they will be on your side). 7) If the media gets involved things could spin out of control.
you make a great point. Your ethics are yours, mine are mine. We have guys on this site that think anyone hunting with a compound bow are cheating. Dont mention e bikes, atvs, rifles, or the real deal breaker- baiting deer.
I'm of the opinion that in the 2A and hunting/fishing/trapping space if it's legal I'll support it. Doesnt mean I have to like it or that I'll participate, but if you wish to do it and its legal I'm sure as hell not going to question your ethics.
My ethical position has definitely shifted as I age. I just turned 46 a few days ago and things I did as a child. or even in my 20's or early 30's i couldn't even imagine doing today. Some of the things i did as a child horrify me today.
You know my position. The government should not be involved. Hunters should elevate our standards on our own. As JM's post points out, standards have changed. I will not be surprised if the organizations he mentions do not some day define fair chase as to exclude baiting. And if that includes plots, I will be OK with that.
Not all, but many do.
One of the biggest complaints I see voiced by the QDMA crowd (many of which fancy themselves "habitat managers") is that they just don't have any control of what happens to a buck once it leaves their managed property. It frustrates them to no end to pass on what they consider to be an immature non-shooter, only to have some greedy jackass on the property next door blast him. Now, if that jackass happened to lure that immature non-shooter off their QDMA property with a feeder or a pile of apples, that sends some of them into the stratosphere.
As is evidenced in this particular thread, some are even so arrogant to believe they actually claim to know the motivations behind other's harvest choices.
Being from Michigan, you know well how diverse our state is in terms of deer populations. Some areas are so overpopulated that the DNR has threatened to use sharpshooters (over bait, no less) to bring down the population . At the same time some areas are so underpopulated they pass regulations making it illegal to shoot any does at all, in any season, with any weapon.
Some people are simply too ignorant to realize that conditions on a DMU level, or even a square mile level depending on the breakdown of private and public land, may be vastly different than conditions on a state wide level.
What kind of person who fancies himself a "habitat manager" wouldn't realize that if populations are extremely low in a particular area, only a greedy, selfish hunter would kill every deer they had the opportunity or legal right to kill? What kind of person would accuse that hunter of being "self centered?"
Those are rhetorical questions BB, the answers are as obvious as the nose on your face.
One other thing I think needs to be addressed is the notion that everyone can sacrifice and own their own land and perform their own habitat improvements. That is patently ridiculous.
First of all, that assumes that deer hunting is a main priority in life. For the majority of deer hunters, it isn't. Even if it is a main priority, just look at the what it costs on average to raise a child. Statistics show that it takes on average, almost a quarter of a million dollars to raise a child through age 17. That doesn't include the bloated costs of higher education. Now, if a couple has the audacity to have 2 or 3 children...
So BB, how much more land and "habitat improvements" could you have financed with an extra $300,000.00 - $500,000.00 or more?
Yes, that's a rhetorical question too. It doesn't take a masters degree to figure that one out. It's 3rd grade math.
I mean that sincerely. Extremely low populations, your words, yet you readily capture pictures of different deer in a very small area.
LMAO. Good grief, you just can make this stuff up.
All of us get to do what we think is proper. I have expressed my thoughts, and encouraged a path other than baiting. From my view, if I don't accept what some of you think is proper, then you feel free to insult and lie about me. You guys have good company.
You hit the nail on the head. The QDM crowd are the main players pushing to outlaw baiting.... Because it pisses them off to no end that the average Joe throws down a couple of gallons of corn and shoots a year and a half old buck.....
So the next step for them is to outlaw shooting that little buck to force the average Joe to go along with their desire to grow big bucks....
Take a drive around the thumb..... QDMA signs everywhere....”Let them go and let them grow “...... and QDMA lobbied legislature to outlaw the shooting of young bucks..... It’s all about the racks..... anyone who says any different is blowing smoke.....
For not caring what others think, you sure put together a lengthy response, two days later. Hope you feel better.
A few thoughts...
Yes, I think able bodied and able minded people can accomplish about anything they are fully committed to and make the necessary sacrifices. I get we think differently on that, it goes back to how we paid for college in my mind. I am nothing special, so if I can have success most anyone can IMO. I have this same attitude towards welfare recipients as I do comfortable, educated people.
As stated previously, my habitat projects do not take from our household budget. We find cost share and I make sacrifices like driving vehicles until they die. Further, you have no idea who we have helped in our family since we were not blest to have children. And it will remain that way, so try practicing what you preach and don't make assumptions about people.
You trying to pull the money angle would be laughable if not a further reflection of your integrity. I remember your former comments on wealth, leaving it to your children, that you could have retired by 50 etc. Chris owns two homes and 20 acres in the UP. God bless none of us are hurting!
I started my habitat projects with a 5 hp tiller and a McCullough chain saw. It can be done on the cheap.
By your own words your property is surrounded by thousands of acres of public, better quality habitat. I and many others would die to be in your shoes. Sorry you ad your fan club cannot accept that my opinion is you have not justification for baiting, and habitat projects, including but not limited to, good plots are not baiting and are vastly superior for wildlife. It's my opinion. Others agree and disagree. It's a free country still boys.
I plant plots, trees, open canopy, do periodic burns to promote forbs, coppice browse trees, and a whole host of other things to benefit wildlife. I pass numerous bucks that many would consider shooters in the hopes that I will have shots at them in following years as monsters! Yes, I love big antlers and do many things to promote that resource. With that said if the neighbor called and said he would like help dragging out the buck he just shot I wouldn't say a thing about it being the number one "save" buck on my place. I would grab a couple of beers and head his way. After I helped him load it I would shake his hand, drink a one of those beers with him, and tell him I wanted some of the jerky he makes from it for Christmas.
Not everyone has the desire to become a farmer or habitat manager.....
I have planted food plots... and I will again. They are kill plots..... small enough that if a deer walks into them... I can reach them with my bow.....
I have friends who are planting food plots. To help them to kill deer. They are not of the QDMA mindset.... neither am I.
You see guys that don’t want to do what you do as lazy. I don’t see that at all. The guy who wants nothing more than to walk out and hunt with zero involvement in farming has just as much right to buy a license and hunt deer as a deer farmer. And what does it hurt if he uses a couple gallons of bait ??
I get it, I understand. Not everyone wants to.
Now get that not everyone agrees baiting is necessary or healthy and some would like to discourage it. That's all!!!!
And you have also stated that if the teat dried up (CRP is taxpayer $$'s) you would significantly scale back your habitat work. Nice. Taxpayer funded hobby. Wonder how many others in the QDMA crowd are operating the same way?
Let's be honest. Sacrifice is when it hurts to do it, but doing it anyhow.
You are correct. I don't know about numerous times, but the following was posted a couple days ago on this very thread:
"You know my position. The government should not be involved. Hunters should elevate our standards on our own.
Even when you quote some people directly, it is you and others that will somehow be accused of having a lack of integrity, insulting them, or outright lying.
Now you know why, when there was still a Community Forum, I made the decision to never again respond directly to some people (4 to be exact), that I determined to be obvious trolls, outright liars, or mentally unstable, no matter how they attempt to goad me into it.
You run a deer feeder yourself for God’s sake.
Wanting to discourage hunters from baiting is one thing. Belittling them.... calling them lazy selfish slobs isn’t gonna discourage them...
It’s not wanting to discourage the practice that I take issue with........
It’s the guys that want it OUTLAWED.
I have never once said or implied government should outlaw it. Read the articles posted to see how it can affect herd health. My feeder is along a creekway with timber. The deer travel it, that's why I bought that specific lot. The feeder and adjacent food plot does not change deer behavior.
You do have a reading comprehension problem..
The government should not be involved, they should not make a law banning it unless there is a compelling reason to do so, and CWD does not meet those standards were my exact words.
I ask that you honor your word and quit responding to me.
The HUNTERS that show up to NRC meetings and ask for baiting to be outlawed and antler point restrictions to be made into law.
I could farm that land and take the money. It is a sacrifice.
I use the money for direct out of pocket expenses. I do all of the work. The opportunity cost is a huge sacrifice, as many of you pointed out that you don't want to do the work.
CRP is cash rent for the land. It has an impact on commodity prices, erosion, water health etc. The government is getting something in return and so is society. Wish we had more responsible LOs.
Please read the articles! I did not say or imply a gravity feeder is any different than a bait pile for health or any other variable. They are exactly the same!
Mine doesn't re-direct herd behavior. They travel the creek, there is ag on both ends of that creek right outside our development.
As stated before, they are not eating the corn, they are in he plot.
Whatever issues are going on with QDMA and your state, I represent my own views. Discuss those please, do not lump me in with anyone else.
Subtle dig Frank? I sent all three of my kids to private school. $6K per year. THAT's a sacrifice. Because I CHOSE to do that, I really don't have the $$ to buy land and manage it. I've stated before what I would do if I owned the 1000 acres I hunt on.
"I could farm that land and take the money. It is a sacrifice."
No, Frank. It is not. It's only a sacrifice, if the $$ from farming were intended for budgetary use. Apparently it's not, or it would be. So, again you are using taxpayer $$'s to fund your hobby, and have expressly stated you would scale back if those $$'s were to cease. Sacrifice isn't using someone else's $$'s.
I would use ag revenue for my family budget. We use CRP money to give back and dull the criticism you are trying to level. Nice try though Tom.
Thanks for sending your kids to private school. We support that as well!
Thanks for a balanced response. Robin and I recognize we have been blest. One of those blessings is living in a country where dreams are possible!
Truth be told, I would rather live where we had close access to large tracts of public land. I am a bit of explorer at heart. Had a job offer in CO when I was young. Wife does not like the mountains. Broke my heart a little. I try and make the best of it with what I do here. Just my personality to look for win-win situations.
People think someone else always has it better. I try and appreciate what I have.
Lots of things change travel patterns. What gives anyone the right to expect certain travel patterns? Does the fact that someone does "habitat improvements" entitle them to certain travel patterns? What were the travel patterns prior to someone planting a food plot? Did the plot you just planted change travel patterns?
How presumptuous is it to expect that just because you do habitat improvements, or nothing at all, that certain travel patterns are somehow permanent and yours to exploit?
Why would what biologists think matter to someone who hasn't cared about what others think since the 8th grade? Personally, I only thought about myself in the 8th grade, then I grew up.
Something doesn't smell right. I received a PM from a poster on the other thread. Claimed he was just there to level the playing field for Kevin. Today it seems to me that Kevin is just trying to be antagonistic. Texas Ranger serving up warnings?
Kevin is giving as good, if not better than he receives.
My request he read what biologists say is sincere. For example, baiting in areas that may have harsh climates may cause young deer not yet experienced in yarding or other protective behaviors to hang around a bait site too long. By the time they realize the food is out, they might have to find their way to the herd walking through virgin deep snow instead of trails blazed by other deer. This may weaken them allowing predators to pick them off or wear down fat reserves causing death.
For you private or public land experts what is this
Who claimed that?
As see it as an outsider looking in, Michigan has 3 problems. Too many deer, too few hunters, and lack of mature bucks. The easy solution to those problems in my mind is to kill more does, and let young bucks survive until mature. Do those 2 things and I think the hunters would flock to MI, and it could have hunting on par with Iowa.
But maybe I'm over-simplifying it.
And open does back up to archers in the U.P.,,,,, As John Ozoga says........ you can’t stock pile deer in the U.P. Killing less does simply means more starve in the yards.
Yet Michigan will never be quite like Iowa. I think Iowa has only about 1% of their land that is State Land or Federal Land..... While 12% of Michigan is State Land..... Not to Mention our vast Federal Forests....10% of the land in Michigan is Federal Land.... So Iowa is mostly private land..... Big difference..... If you look at the areas of Michigan where most of the big bucks come from....... Its the southernmost counties where most of the land is private.
You bet I know the difference between the UP and LP Winters. Road closures, accidents, snow, deer/truck collisions were all part of my job. And yes I know the UP is where yarding takes place, yet deer will congregate around needed habitat during periods of stress, just like my one picture shows.
I don't cherry pick biologists, and no disrespect to Kevin's neighbor, but I will defer to a wildlife biologist over a CO as typically CO's have as much or more emphasis on law enforcement as they do biology.
I don't remember the study, it was years ago, maybe WI or MN...reported on behavior of radio collared deer. Don't remember exactly, but something about yearling bucks, rut time, their being displaced out of their home range during this time, coinciding with the start of harsher weather and not knowing who to follow...these young bucks were more at risk. Seemed to make sense to me, but I am no biologist, that's why I try and keep an open mind to what they say.
Yep not fair to the average Joe, I get that. But what really is. Does Disneyland give free or reduced tickets to the average Joe?
There is away to solve it hopefully Michigan can figure it out
Do you know if MI deer were re-stocked? If so, were the same sub-species stocked north to south? Thanks.
Well now, isn't that a coincidence BB. The only part of MI where deer yard to any extent, and it's the only part of the state that's open to baiting. That is why I eluded to my neighbor and I having a good laugh about deer starving to death in the LP due to baiting.
I do have to admit, it's kind of fun watching people chase their tails from Toledo to Traverse City in an attempt to show how smart they are about the complexities of managing deer in a state like MI.
I agree with your last post except that private versus public is probably only part of the explanation for size differences.
You know more than me I am sure, but the sub-species can explain size differences.
Since that is eliminated, I bet soil profiles are much different in the southern ag areas, and the crops are more effective at delivering the higher nutrient content those soils have.
Here in MO in the NW as we get closer to IA and the soil that grows those big deer, we see the same effect here. One of the reasons I like this area of MO.
Why don't you give it a rest? You have over played your hand.
Southern Michigan grows the big racks more consistently than anywhere in the state...
Yes, the theory that deer/animals increase in body size in northern latitudes adapting for survival should be what is taking place. Seems the talk here was LP deer were bigger though. Nutrients do affect the racks for sure. Not many P&Y come out of MO Ozarks. Thanks.
But maybe I'm over-simplifying it."
Yes, I think you are. Michigan has more than 20% public land, Iowa has about 1%.
Farms make up about 90% of Iowa's land, Farms make up about 28% of Michigan's land.
Those two things alone make the comparisons between the two states difficult at best, without even getting into huge differences in number of hunters/number of tags issued (both res. and non res.) and number of deer harvested per year.
Look at a map of the original range of native grasses. Mainly this encompasses our fertile farm belt today.
Prairie grasses, especially after centuries of growth, significantly build the fertility and bio-mass in the ground.
I believe it is commonly accepted soil nutrients/nutrition, along with genetics, age etc play a significant role in deer/antler development.
To me this explains a lot in the difference in herd numbers north to south in MI, and rack size. Just not enough quality food in the north.
I also see here the attitude I witnessed when I hunter there...any buck is good. QDMA principles are having a tougher time catching on, tradition is difficult to change. And not saying it should!