Black Gold Sights - Pure Gold
Wolf Management Outdoor channel tonight
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Paul@thefort 27-Dec-19
Stix 27-Dec-19
Paul@thefort 27-Dec-19
Stix 27-Dec-19
yooper89 27-Dec-19
ground hunter 27-Dec-19
Inshart 27-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 27-Dec-19
drycreek 27-Dec-19
ground hunter 27-Dec-19
ground hunter 27-Dec-19
Inshart 27-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 27-Dec-19
Jaquomo 27-Dec-19
MtnHunter 27-Dec-19
Orion 27-Dec-19
Jaquomo 27-Dec-19
Jaquomo 27-Dec-19
Stix 27-Dec-19
MtnHunter 27-Dec-19
rodb 27-Dec-19
RK 27-Dec-19
Jaquomo 27-Dec-19
TD 27-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 27-Dec-19
Jaquomo 27-Dec-19
Paul@thefort 27-Dec-19
Grasshopper 28-Dec-19
SBH 28-Dec-19
Danbow 28-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 28-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 28-Dec-19
drycreek 28-Dec-19
bowbender77 28-Dec-19
HH 28-Dec-19
Paul@thefort 28-Dec-19
HH 28-Dec-19
HH 28-Dec-19
Paul@thefort 28-Dec-19
HH 29-Dec-19
RK 29-Dec-19
HH 29-Dec-19
Paul@thefort 29-Dec-19
HH 29-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-19
cnelk 29-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-19
Lone Bugle 29-Dec-19
Paul@thefort 29-Dec-19
Orion 29-Dec-19
HH 29-Dec-19
HH 29-Dec-19
Highlife 29-Dec-19
Glunt@work 29-Dec-19
HH 29-Dec-19
RK 29-Dec-19
altitude sick 29-Dec-19
Orion 29-Dec-19
HH 29-Dec-19
HighLife 29-Dec-19
RK 29-Dec-19
wyobullshooter 29-Dec-19
Stix 29-Dec-19
wyobullshooter 29-Dec-19
Drahthaar 29-Dec-19
RK 29-Dec-19
HH 29-Dec-19
elkstabber 30-Dec-19
RK 30-Dec-19
HH 30-Dec-19
Jaquomo 30-Dec-19
HH 30-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 30-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 30-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 30-Dec-19
HH 30-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 30-Dec-19
KSflatlander 30-Dec-19
Drahthaar 30-Dec-19
HH 30-Dec-19
KSflatlander 30-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 30-Dec-19
HH 30-Dec-19
Orion 30-Dec-19
Tlhbow 30-Dec-19
Tlhbow 30-Dec-19
TrapperKayak 30-Dec-19
ground hunter 30-Dec-19
Shoots-Straight 30-Dec-19
Glunt@work 31-Dec-19
KSflatlander 31-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 31-Dec-19
Orion 31-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 31-Dec-19
Orion 31-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 31-Dec-19
Orion 31-Dec-19
KSflatlander 31-Dec-19
WapitiBob 31-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 31-Dec-19
KSflatlander 31-Dec-19
HH 31-Dec-19
Grey Ghost 31-Dec-19
KSflatlander 31-Dec-19
brunse 31-Dec-19
Glunt@work 31-Dec-19
HH 31-Dec-19
goelk 31-Dec-19
HH 01-Jan-20
Whitey 01-Jan-20
Glunt@work 01-Jan-20
wyobullshooter 01-Jan-20
Tlhbow 01-Jan-20
Paul@thefort 01-Jan-20
Mad Trapper 02-Jan-20
altitude sick 02-Jan-20
HH 02-Jan-20
From: Paul@thefort
27-Dec-19
Colorado Stop The Wolf Coalition members Hunter Nation and Outdoor Channel have produced a special program airing tonight about the challenges and limits in effectively managing wolves in the west.

Be sure to tune in to the Great American Tales: The Wolf War, Modern Predator Management tonight at Friday, 7 PM ET and 3 AM ET on Saturday.

Should make for an interesting conversation after viewing. Paul Navarre, Larimer County rep, Colorado Stop The Wolf Coalition.

From: Stix
27-Dec-19
Just curious, why is it on The Outdoor Channel?

What audience are you trying to attract?

The voters who will decide the issue don't watch it.

If money is the issue, PBS would be a better venue.

From: Paul@thefort
27-Dec-19
I would expect hunters watching will pick up some good talking points to past on to non hunters. Let watch and see before throwing rocks. my best, Paul

From: Stix
27-Dec-19
Got it. Sounds like something we could all benefit from.

From: yooper89
27-Dec-19
I mean yeah they need to get it on the nations largest news source providers but that’s just not feasible.

27-Dec-19
PBS would not allow the program to air, I am sure,,,, they are so unbias,,, (ha ha ha)

From: Inshart
27-Dec-19
Set to record, Thanks Paul.

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-19
Thanks for your efforts, Paul. I, too, have it set to record.

Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into the crap fight that the other now extinct Colorado wolf thread did.

Matt

From: drycreek
27-Dec-19
Thanks Paul, got it set.

27-Dec-19
I just watched it.... I am sad to say, coming from Wisconsin, that when Paul Ryan was speaker of the House, and the Republicans had the Senate also, they did nothing, and they had the President who would support them..... Paul Ryan was quoted as saying he did not have the time, for that issue............... He let all of us down here, that is for sure...

Wolves had scourged Wisconsin and the UP..... Our DNR is in love with them. We even have volunteer wolf trackers, to keep up with getting the numbers on them. Yet these trackers do not see what we see, those of us who are in the woods,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The last time Wis was allowed to hunt and trap them, their was alarm from even our own DNR, how good the sportsmen were at it.... Of course we do not have the mountains like out west, just vast northern swamps, but, tags were filled fast........

Our DNR assured us the capacity for the state should be 350 wolves. Now they have said we can handle more. They come up with something like 800 wolves for a population.... More like 1500 from those in the know.............

We all know the problems, its a darn shame, that traditional conservation has fallen to the nut jobs on the environmental movement........

One program that might air it is Front Line, which is on the PBS market,,,,,,

For all of those in Colorado,,,,, Good Luck,,,,, you have more people than we do, and when you look at the ratio, there will be more damage and interaction out there

27-Dec-19
In Amasa Michigan they well a T shirt..... Its a picture of a wolf, with a sight picture on the face.... It says,,, Yes they are Endangered.............

From: Inshart
27-Dec-19
I just finished watching it as well. Extremely disappointed! They made it into a commercial for Hunter Nation!

Nothing personal against Keith, but I certainly would have liked to see someone like Rinella or Newberg host this program, much better spoken, and not made it sound like a commercial.

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-19
Colorado still has the largest elk herd of any state, and realizes the most parks and wildlife management revenues from it. Don't be so quick to write off Colorado,

Matt

From: Jaquomo
27-Dec-19
All my nonhunting voting neighbors who think wolves are COOL could give a damn about how much revenue the CPW gets from elk hunting.

From: MtnHunter
27-Dec-19
When are the hard hitting graphic commercials with wolves attacking moose and elk gonna start airing on local channels? Or better yet get them on the YouTube or Facebook.

From: Orion
27-Dec-19
That was actually a waste of time and money and will have no effect on the upcoming vote. They are not reaching the people they need to by airing infomercials on the outdoor channel

From: Jaquomo
27-Dec-19
Scott, too early for that. The dumbass low-information voters who will decide this at the voting booth have either made up their pea brains already or will decide in the last few days before the election based on 30 second soundbites or video clips. Right now the (basically free) multi-pronged, linked social media campaign the pro wolf people are running is killing it. Stop The Wolf is basically absent from any social media avenues any voters from the Front Range would ever see unless they are specifically looking for "Stop The Wolf".

From: Jaquomo
27-Dec-19
One organization that really does know how to play the GenX-Millenial social media game is BHA. Unfortunately, they appear to be on the side of wolf reintroduction, or at least ambivalent, so they'll be of no help in this battle.

From: Stix
27-Dec-19
Best wishes to you folks donating your time and resources to try and defeat this. It's an uphill battle with this electorate.

Maybe it's worth saving the effort until after the vote when it goes to court. That's where it's gonna end up anyway if it passes.

From: MtnHunter
27-Dec-19
It's all gonna be fun and games until the first hippie backpacker gets attacked or some yuppies golden retriever gets eaten on a 14er trail.

From: rodb
27-Dec-19
"When are the hard hitting graphic commercials with wolves attacking moose and elk gonna start airing on local channels? Or better yet get them on the YouTube or Facebook."

When outdoor writers and magazines start showing the public what is really going on. We watch shows from Africa where lions are killing baby gazelles so why don't we have videos of wolves killing moose calves? Minnesota has documents proving that wolves are responsible for 75% of moose calves killings but nobody cares. The public thinks that wolves eat grass.

From: RK
27-Dec-19
Well the hippies may be eaten but not the golden retrievers. They are the closest known relative of the wolf so the wolves should not eat them

Very disappointing

From: Jaquomo
27-Dec-19
MtnHunter, it won't matter. Dogs and people are attacked by coyotes all the time and yuppies figure its part of living in "nature"... in Boulder... A goldendoodle killed by a wolf in Indian Peaks Wilderness would be celebrated by the howlers.

From: TD
27-Dec-19
Well, unless they're weak, sick or old and the wolf is starving nothing has to worry about being attacked and eaten, not even an elk much less a hippie.... that's what the experts tell me.....

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-19
"All my nonhunting voting neighbors who think wolves are COOL could give a damn about how much revenue the CPW gets from elk hunting."

That's a shame, Lou. what can we do to change that? Most of my neighbors understand proper wildlife management.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
27-Dec-19
Matt, you don't live on the Front Range. We change it by getting the entire mainstream media, every green enviro organization, every Hollywood producer, every school curriculum, every social media viral thread to broadcast the truth.. Which will never happen.

From: Paul@thefort
27-Dec-19
I do believe most of us know a lot more about the wolf issue than the general voter and can be more critical of this program/contents. As one who is knowledgeable, I found the contexts to be fair and a couple of the interviews very weak in info and content. I personally did not learn anything new or exciting and found some information to be very slanted, but as expected.

I tried to watch this program with the eyes and mind of one who knows nothing of the wolf issue but might vote in favor of the introduction of the wolf into Colorado because one might think it would be cool and in their mind, do something "green" and for the environment.

By using the above model and then watching the program, it might get one to think more of the wolf issue and maybe look farther into the subject but as we might know, the general voting public will not see this program

I also believe at this time, the vast majority of voters in Colorado know nothing of this wolf issue., do not know about Ballot Initiative 107 or the current action to get 125,000 signatures to get it on the ballot in 2020. It is also a possibility that the majority of Colorado's hunters know not much of the issue, and have not gotten involved as I have spoken with a few.

Since this program was shown on the Outdoor Channel, I would hope more hunters are now aware of the issue Nation wide and would more research on the issue.

my best, Paul.

From: Grasshopper
28-Dec-19

Grasshopper's Link
Saw it, that was about building an email list so they can plead for funds. Missed the mark. Not sure what they paid for that, hope it was free air time.

This video needs to get to every woman and mother voter in Colorado. If you can get the women to vote no, you will win the election and this ballot initiative will go away.

Share the link on your facebook pages, this is what happens to pets in backyards.

From: SBH
28-Dec-19
Where is that footage from Grasshopper?

Thats tough to watch!

From: Danbow
28-Dec-19
The Foundation for Wildlife Management is doing a great job with helping control wolves in Idaho. They have a huge task there but would be great with their knowledge base if they could expand to neighboring states and the midwest. Then alot more people would be more inclined to join their organization. Good podcast with them on Stickbow Chronicles. Colorado will have wolves one way or another. For sure you have them now but once on the endangered list you are screwed!

From: Grey Ghost
28-Dec-19
I don't think I'll watch it. It sounds like one of those videos that makes you wish you could un-see it. I can guess what it shows.

Matt

From: TrapperKayak
28-Dec-19
All six of those bastards would be dead if that was my dog and I got to the door with my semi. in time. I'll deal with the conssequences and pay the fine later. Let em live in the wilderness and shoot them on sight outside it.

From: drycreek
28-Dec-19
My thoughts on the program are somewhat like Paul’s. I knew in a general way, but certainly did not know the numbers of elk, moose, etc. involved in the carnage at Yellowstone. I do know from firsthand knowledge the lack of animals seen from the first time I visited until the last (two years ago). I’m taking my granddaughter to Yellowstone next summer, I hope there’s something left besides mud pits for her to see.

I fully agree that the right people won’t see this for the most part, but someone has to start somewhere. Not being in the area where this is happening, all I’m gonna get is what I read on here, or on some other forum. Let’s face it, if it ain’t happening to us, we all have a tendency to put our own cares on the front burner and leave others on the back. I’m about done hunting the West, but this wolf crap, sooner or later, is gonna effect almost every hunter in this country. The successes of the huggers breed more of the same. Wolf introduction is going on in NM, in the SE, and at least talked about for South Texas, (although the Mexican Gray or the Red Wolf will never pose the threat to game or livestock that a 150 pound Canadian will). We have enough predators in the form of cougars and coyotes to go around.

From: bowbender77
28-Dec-19
Wolf introduction is going on in Arizona as well.

From: HH
28-Dec-19

HH's Link
Some more info for the gake sciece guys we got here.

Like i was saying about the Rocky Mt wolf . Gone ..... extinct.

Wolfies brought in the Super large northern Gray.

Check the link guy worked for USFWS for 30yrs. This jad been out there and others where they crossed Gray with Artics and recrossed with Grays for the Super Wolf in Wy, MT and ID.

K

From: Paul@thefort
28-Dec-19
If all true. WOW! Thanks for posting that. my best, Paul

From: HH
28-Dec-19
The King book or Documentary Crying Wolf is a must read to understand the politics of how the wolf was/is being used bu who and to what end.

The link above has a bunch of mentions of the players involed. You cam do the digging yourself to follow the money. Not hard. All open source.

KANA

From: HH
28-Dec-19
The Wolies are way ahead. Prior Admin has really helped them. NRA NBF and orher must stand with the folks where the wolf impact will be felt.

People must know this Wolf was never native to CO or anywhere else in western states.

K

From: Paul@thefort
28-Dec-19
Introducing the wolf to Colorado is not about Need but all about Want. The pro wolfers Want them here and are willing to doing most anything to get them here. They spent nearly one million dollars (of which 99% came from out of state) to get this issue on the ballot and I bet they will spent double that to get the voters to vote in favor of the forced introduction.

When they realized it was not going to happen per the CPW (DOW) as the Wildlife Commission is on record opposing the introduction, they found another way. The other way was the Ballot Initiative as Colorado is a Ballot Initiative state and allows game management issues to be voted on by the general public. The pro wolfers will rely on EMOTION, not science or facts, to get their message across and then hope to get the majority of the Colorado voters to vote in favor of the Initiative.

As stated before, the USFWS still is in control ( listed) of the wolf in Colorado so until that changes...............................................it is anyone's guess the future. The next 9 months should be interesting. my best, Paul

From: HH
29-Dec-19

HH's Link
It is a shame Paul that the demographics of CO has changed so drastically in such a short time . I would love to see what would happen if the GVT said " Co you have failed and the some federal lands in CO will be sold in trust for the people". I for one do not going forward we can trust the GVT or rather half the gvt after the current Admin.

I see it strange that you had these so called Science experts in the Biology field in last thread that are not here with their agendas of fake science! This wolf issues clearly goes back to early 1990's and is all open source info.

What the CO Fight the Wolf coalition should do is partner up with anyone who'll get on board even if they maybe an enemy in another area of thought. Problem with fighting the Looney Left and Leaf Lickers is that they will call you Racists, Animal Abusers and will tie this not only to your name but your line of work, Job. Industry, Church, what have you. Your coalition needs to be ruthless and scorch the earth or these folks will see through you. I really think that this will trickle through election year and these folks will get the ear of Don Jr, you have a chance.

Look below at this Link. This is another of at least 20 that are $ing in on these city dwellars who rather give $ to wild dogs than to Americans ,Vets, Hungry and Homeless! The Center for Biological Diversity. A trove of half truth and outright lies and misinformation. Since its on the Internet it must be real and these Earth Muffins have a need to believe!

Kana~

From: RK
29-Dec-19
Great info HH AND great work Paul Keep it up

From: HH
29-Dec-19

HH's Link
Just another of the Org's that would have you believe you are not the Apex predator of the planet. Check the ASPCA too. They are neck deep in the Wolfer Projects with large $ infusions.

These folks are your school too. I am sure these people have Wolfers in you kids schools in CO. You can bet on it!

K

From: Paul@thefort
29-Dec-19
FYI, There are now 20 Colorado Counties that have signed (County Commissioners) a County Resolution against the forced introduction of the wolf to Colorado. Albert and Douglas were the latest Counties to sign up. More to come in the near future . I am working on the Larimer County Commissioners as we speak. Moving forward. my best, Paul

From: HH
29-Dec-19

HH's Link
Good News Paul. Fundraising . . . .Need $ Click on Websites where you can get monies with a click.

Now here is a site that is a big part of the problem. These folks are your jet-setters who land in Sun Valley on Leer jets and buzz down to Jackson Hole for the night, etc.

This page here has misinformation on every page and outright lies. One would never know it unless you look into it. This Myths page should be called Fake Wolf Myths.

K~

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-19
"Albert and Douglas were the latest Counties to sign up. "

Paul, did you mean "Elbert" not "Albert" county?

Matt

From: cnelk
29-Dec-19
^^^ Of course he did.

Good thing BS has Internet Police

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-19
Just clarifying, Cnelk. No need to get snarky. I happen to live in Elbert county, hence my question.

Another question. If a state-wide referendum to reintroduce wolves is passed, what influence will these county resolutions have over it?

Matt

From: Lone Bugle
29-Dec-19
Thank you Paul!

From: Paul@thefort
29-Dec-19
Gray Ghost, Exactly and a good question and I will have an answer shorty. Paul

From: Orion
29-Dec-19
The county resolutions will do nothing but make people feel good. Sort of like the magazine ban, red flag law, etc. etc.

From: HH
29-Dec-19

HH's Link
More Bark Biters gaining $ for the wolf. You can do this all day.

Wolf = Big Money

Kana

From: HH
29-Dec-19

HH's Link
This is one I really think should be watched. The Southeastern Red Wolf. LMAO

If so I have killed plenty!!!

The University of N Carolina has test tubed plenty of they super Yotes and then got a southern law firm to fight on through victory as a species and they are clone/making them ( I mean raising them). These dogs will legally or illegally will be released in Uwharri Nation Forest for sure.

You have not even scratched the surface to the new reality that the Liberal Earth Muffins have and will use the endangered species act and the dog predator to limit human and hunting rights without question. And.... When they have enough dog predators they will start with other extinct critters using the Wolf Pandemic Model of today.

Kana~

From: Highlife
29-Dec-19
So you've just admitted on a public forum that yove killed endangered Red Wolves?

From: Glunt@work
29-Dec-19
Colorado has a Dem governor (who's husband is an animal rights activist), and both sides of the state legislature are Dem majority. We have one Dem and one Republican in the Federal Senate but that is likely to go full Dem as well. Hickenlooper was mayor of Denver and Governor and is now running to unseat the Republican Senator as an after thought since he washed out of the Presidential race.

Most of Colorado geographically is conservative or at least in the middle but like many States, the front range, ski towns and few odd rural areas are enough to overwhelm the rest of the State at election time.

We were purple for quite a while but not so much any more.

From: HH
29-Dec-19
If thats the big coyote running free in southeast USA ? most definately. Pert-near hunnerds I reckon over 40 or so years.

Dont Lick Leaves or Bite on Bark

Bad for the sensibilities.

Glunt , then CO is gonna go way of the NYC radical AOC and the Cidiots.

K

From: RK
29-Dec-19
I'm with HH. I have killed and trapped those big coyotes for decades

Those pics on the website HH posted are coyotes NOT red wolves.

So instead of getting your panties in a wad Highlife learn the ways of the pro wolfies and anti hunters instead of trying to get a shot in on a fellow hunter

29-Dec-19
I just joined (Hunter Nation) after watching “ Wolf War” The best messaging I’ve heard or seen to date.

Sure it’s on a hunting network but look who they are interviewing. Politicians. Who make wolf policy.

It’s politicians we need to win over. The Libs aren’t listening to the public or the Biologists.

So we need to build a bulkhead against these Lunatics.

From: Orion
29-Dec-19
Did you see who is associated with Hunter Nation? I wouldn't give that crook any money look what he has done with SFW

From: HH
29-Dec-19
Great Finally on bowsite and new non Rhode Island Rodeo Riders.

Be fruitful and get your buddies to come to bowsite for the New Bowsite : for a hunter centiric future.

K

From: HighLife
29-Dec-19
Hey sweet heart my panties aren't in a wad but thanks anyways for your concern

From: RK
29-Dec-19
Always highlife got to protect the snowflakes :)

29-Dec-19
This is like the other wolf thread that was banished to the cyber junk pile...the gift that just keeps giving, and giving, and giving....

I do find it curious that those that go out of their way to antagonize those of us that are against re-introduction, are from Kansas, Illinois, etc.

From: Stix
29-Dec-19
That now closed wolf thread was a great score for the pro wolf crowd.

Divide and Conquer.

29-Dec-19
Yeah, right. Go back to hugging your tree. In the meantime, we’ll keep killing them once they cross your northern border.

From: Drahthaar
29-Dec-19
I live in Eastern N.C. where the Red Wolves were introduced , they have wiped out our deer herd, no foxes ,rabbits. they have interbred with coyote ,you can't tell a Red Wolf from a coyote except for using DNA test. they say their is only 11 Red wolves left in the wild, Bull Shit, they are in 5 surrounding counties, they said they would never leave the Alligator River refuge , that was a lie also ,I hope they all die of heart worms. Forrest

From: RK
29-Dec-19
Drahthaar

So in NC you are not allowed to shoot coyotes?

From: HH
29-Dec-19
Yes, this Wolf stuff is just the flavor of the decade.Like I was saying.

Look for bigger predators to come and the long tail cat of sorts infestuctions from FL to ME.

Follow the $$

K

From: elkstabber
30-Dec-19

elkstabber's Link
RK, I'll answer for Drahthaar. There are a couple of counties in northeast NC where coyote hunting wasn't allowed for a number of years. The reason was that they coyotes and red wolves are indistinguishable (except by DNA test). Recently the coyote hunting has been reopened but coyote hunters have to apply for a permit. And there are many rules and requirements. For example, you have to send in a hair sample from the dead coyote in order to verify that it wasn't a red wolf. Which is likely too risky for a coyote hunter to want to do.

From: RK
30-Dec-19
Elkstabber

Thank you for that information

You more than answered my questions

From: HH
30-Dec-19
All part of the Lefty Plan to get rid of Hunting then guns. Red Wolves=Big Coyote

Paul you guys, us guys really need to get on the Internet Fund Raising kick. That's where the $ is for grass roots Orgs of today. Those donors of 10-15$ add up fast. You put multiple sites up cha-ching! You can do things and organize more freely, put on Demo's, go to schools, travel to demonstrate against the wolf in WA DC, etc, etc.

K

From: Jaquomo
30-Dec-19
Like I mentioned before in the other thread, it's too bad BHA is pro-wolf. They really know how to influence and recruit millenials, use modern communication tactics.

Stop The Wolf has every donor's email address. So they pay postage, print, stuff and mail hard copy letters to everyone asking for more money? That is so 1980's.

From: HH
30-Dec-19
Yep they need Trumps internwt/ web guru.

Guy would bring in the $.

Big problem and you see it here on Bowsite. That you have bow hunters who are actually in the Wolfie club. They see a place for GrAy Wolf which is not the wolf if our Rockies. It was the Rockie Mt Timber wolf. Sub species.

You got Bowsiters regurgatating thier fake science. Guys like this are so compartmenalized they cant see the path ahead. Cant connect dots outside thier specialized perview.

Your Org Jaq needs to get a meeting with Don Jr. which can be done. You need P & Y on board as well as B&C, NRA, Comptons.

If you dont you’ll see the wolf sticker and on US Olympic Teams in the Springs!!!

This is all doable.

Kana~

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-19
"Wolves once roamed freely throughout North America, in numbers estimated at some 2 million. But federal extermination programs reduced their numbers to the breaking point.

By the 1960s gray wolves were finally protected under what would become the Endangered Species Act. They had been exterminated from all the contiguous United States except for a portion of Minnesota and Isle Royale National Park in Michigan." Hmmm, thought you posted an article in the last thread that said GRAY wolves were not native to the lower 48, but they were instead Timber wolves. So which is it Science Guy? Which one is accurate? Hard to believe any of these articles that are in CONTRAST to one another. Is a CANADIAN GRAY WOLF any different from a lower 48 GRAY WOLF that migrated down from Canada? HMMM? Just to get the record straight, I don't want ANY species of them forcibly reintroduced into any habitat anywhere, and if they re-establish on their own, they should be hunt-managed like coyotes, or any other predator. Griz should be too. Like a problem bear they should be taken out when they become a problem. By anyone.

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-19
'A REMARKABLE COMEBACK, BUT A LONG ROAD TO RECOVERY After receiving federal protection, gray wolves saw tremendous recovery in the western Great Lakes region. Their populations grew and expanded through Wisconsin and Michigan. Through natural migration from Canada and reintroduction to Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho, wolves returned to the northern Rockies and are establishing a toehold in the West Coast states. Recovering populations exist in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Washington and Oregon, with a few wolves beginning to range into California.' Makes me wonder who to believe - a government Pittman/Robertson fund manager/govt employee whistleblower (from your other threads link), or this group of lefty 'wolfies'. I'd like to believe the whistleblower, but this puts doubt as to his credibility when it comes to 'species' accuracy. Since you seem to have a lot of scientific knowledge (more than the actual wildlife biologists), you tell us what to believe Hless.

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-19
HH said: 'They see a place for GrAy Wolf which is not the wolf if our Rockies. It was the Rockie Mt Timber wolf. Sub species.' HH's link he posted said the above (in my two previous posts). Credibility at risk here, Hench......

From: HH
30-Dec-19
Snowflake alert, fake science monkees are back.

Rockies had Timbers in CO and south a bit Pard.

Do some research and comeback. With the libtart bark biter sites they will always print BS.

Yes they lots of plains wolves. Bison calvung alone support most those number there fake science.

They are mostly all Gray Wolves just sub species there of. The northern and the southern Rocky went extinct.

To say the Canada Gray is A northern or Southern Rocky is bold face leaf likckin lie. K

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-19
Northern canada whitetail deer average probably 30% larger than many lower 48 whitetail deer, but the species is the same. Its common knowledge that northern counterparts of many species are larger than central,and,southern ones of the same,species due to evolution in large body size to combat the cold climate...hold body heat in more effectively. Not the same species? I dont need to research it. I already have for the last 40 years.

From: KSflatlander
30-Dec-19
Canadian gray wolf = Canis lupus

Rocky Mountain Gray Wolf = Canis lupus

They are the same species which is scientific fact.

If you want to discuss regional variations within a species (subspecies) then do so. But enough with the mixing of common names like they are separate species. Buy the way HH, what is the subspecies of the Canadian gray wolf and the extirpated Rocky Mountain gray wolf? How where they physiologically different? Is there any scientific proof or studies that shows the Canadian subspecies are any more proficient at killing big game than the gray wolves that use to inhabit Colorado?

Please refrain from any labels or name calling. I legitimately want to know if you have any science (and not just opinion pieces) to back up any of your claims.

By the way, thanks for the link to the article about wolves killing 120 sheep. That was new info to me. Do you have any more info on incidents like the one you posted or was that particular incident the exception?

From: Drahthaar
30-Dec-19
RK , Elkstabber answered for me correctly ,thank you. All I can say is you do not want wolves is your area , don't care what kind ,specie or sub species . DAM A WOLF. I never thought our deer hunting would come to the day you hardly ever see a deer , where I hunt I would see 25 deer in a morning or afternoon hunt ( before the Wolves), now you are lucky to see 1 a hunt. Forrest

From: HH
30-Dec-19
Better check your sub species flatlander.

A cous us a whitetail. You Saavy?

I have do my reading and historical research. The imperical evidence is there that CO Nothern Timber sub species is gone they know the date of last kill and where. That specific wolf went extinct. Its clearly listed on worlds extinct wolf sub species. Replacing it with a wolves from cunnuckistan which averages 25-35lbs larger, has different hunting abilities and will pack up to 20 dogs is just not the wolf of the Northern Rockies never was. Show me your wolf is or was.

K

From: KSflatlander
30-Dec-19
Some of what you are saying could be true. However, if the subspecies of Gray Wolf is extirpated (not extinct as that term in the biological world relates to species not subspecies) then what choice would the USFWS have to reintroduce gray wolves to there original range in the Rocky Mountains? Gray wolves from the Canadian Rocky Mountains or gray wolves from The Great Lakes region? Which likely makes more biological sense?

It doesn’t make sense to me. Many here say the gray wolves from the Great Lakes region have killed all the moose. In isle Royal there is good data that they did greatly affect moose populations. So you think using the gray wolves from the Great Lakes region would be more appropriate because they are less likely to kill elk? I don’t follow.

With the cous and white-tailed deer example. They are the same species just like the gray wolves but different subspecies. If you took a cous deer and reintroduced them to KS and they were isolated from existing wt deer, it would not take that many generations before the cous deer would start to look a lot like other KS white-tails. Form follows function. You’re a self proclaimed pig hunting guy. How many generations did it take the domesticated pigs to physiologically change? Yes, the Canadian gray wolf subspecies is larger but it likely would not take many generations for their physiology to change. To adapt. Just like Trapper was saying.

While you are researching maybe it would be good to look at the wolf harvest records from ID. I’ll bet the average weight is in line with the extirpated subspecies that use to inhabit the U.S, Rocky Mountains. However, I have not looked it up so that is my guess/opinion. It’s not fact and I’m not pretending it is. But it would be interesting info.

And thanks for avoiding the name calling in your response.

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-19
Wiki: Empirical evidence is the information received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and documentation of patterns and behavior through experimentation. The term comes from the Greek word for experience, ????????. Hen, you must be one heluvan old dude to be able to document this subspecies existence and 'extinction' using empiracle evidence. YOU are labeling and knocking wildlife scientists as. Fake Science? THAT is priceless based on your generalized bias blather. Ya have some valid stuff, and then you go spout this type of thing. Neither one of us wants wolves miaming ungulates in this hemisphere anywhere. A few scattered fearful of man wolves would be okay, but it's not happening because of the new false narrative. It does suck. But dont push more in that,direction with all your hate and bias.

From: HH
30-Dec-19
You have to keep it simple for the folks.

Maybe a few small none 140lb wolves who dont pack up in big hunting troops in deep winter snows would be ok. The wolves forced in are and never were part of CO’s environment.

Hate to make comparisons with other species but it serves useful for folks to understand.

Thing is , you have the older grandmas back with $ wholl donate to Humane Soc, Apsca, Save whales and Wolves. They see the Blue Dog Chow commecials and give chit tons of $.

Some of us should put together a big Non Profit 501c or E for Outdoorsmen nation wide to fight these NY, CT, NJ, RI gandmums.

National Outdoor Pastimes Action Fund

K

From: Orion
30-Dec-19
Trapper are you seriously quoting from Wikipedia?

From: Tlhbow
30-Dec-19
Ok here's another amendment ; #1. cut (1) nut out of the males . #1a. Add (2) stiches to the females .

This is definitely a concerned subject that will affect the future generations to come. Hope it don't get too heated and personal so it gets pulled.

Thanks A Paul's for starting it.

From: Tlhbow
30-Dec-19
Oops; paul@thefort..

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-19
Orion, I did this time...take with grain of salt, I was short on time about that moment. It's a pretty straigtforward definition for empirical. All sources say pretty much the same thing. Nonetheless, Julian would be proud...8€ Seriously, these arguments get old, and I should just stay the hell out of them. HH has some good stuff to say but his delivery needs serious improvement and his bias is as far right as our opposition's is left. That usually leads to skepticism. I am done here, the topic is pulverized.

30-Dec-19
I think the Colorado Fish and Game should come to the UP and Northern Wis,,, they can trap and take all the wolves they want.... I mean those dope smokers can have them all............... that is going to be one f..... up state,,,,,,,, in the near future

30-Dec-19
I love the "Johnny come Lately" wolf experts on this thread. Too funny!

From: Glunt@work
31-Dec-19
The wolf that was extirpated from Colorado was Canis Lupus Youngi. Similar to Canis Lupus Irremotus (Wyoming) if anyone wants to learn more about what was here. We likely had both and I doubt they were distinguishable where they overlapped.

I'm not a biologist and even folks who are can disagree on when a population is officially a subspecies. Biologists around at the time felt they had enough data to designate them as a subspecies but either way, they were a smaller wolf. I have no idea if its 10 generations or 1,000 generations for introduced wolves to take on the regional size and behavior differences that once existed. Colorado is a very different place and the wolves won't be eating the same prey and won't be butting up against the same neighboring subspecies like they were in 1800.

From: KSflatlander
31-Dec-19
“I love the "Johnny come Lately" wolf experts on this thread. Too funny!“

There’s always got to be at least one guy incapable of self reflection. What does that make you? A Johnny come lately and a bench warmer cause I haven’t seen you post on this thread or the other one that was locked. Do you got something to add to the discussion or do you always sit on the sideline and point your finger and laugh?

From: Grey Ghost
31-Dec-19
The taxonomy of wolf species and sub-species has been studied and debated amongst biologists for decades with no resolve. I doubt anyone here has the definitive answers.

Hey Paul, any answer on how influential the county resolutions will be if the state-wide referendum passes?

Matt

From: Orion
31-Dec-19
Grey Ghost unless those counties plan on wolf proof fencing their entire border those resolutions are nothing but a feel good piece of paper

From: Grey Ghost
31-Dec-19
Orion,

Thanks. I'll wait for Paul's response, since he seems to be involved with the politics more than most of us.

Matt

From: Orion
31-Dec-19
so you really feel a county resolution will trump state and federal law? Let me know how that works out. This is a waste time and shows that the state didn't learn anything from the spring bear debacle, or our use of leghold traps

From: Grey Ghost
31-Dec-19
" so you really feel a county resolution will trump state and federal law?"

Umm, I asked the question, I didn't speculate about what I "feel".

As for federal law, I think it's pretty well established that the best way to keep the reintroduction from happening in Colorado is to keep the wolves on the ESA. As long as they are listed, the feds have jurisdiction over them. If/when they are delisted, the uninformed liberal urban voters of Colorado can dictate.

Matt

From: Orion
31-Dec-19
I'm still a little confused by the ESA ruling. Were they not listed when they were introduced in other states?

From: KSflatlander
31-Dec-19

KSflatlander's Link
Yes, they were listed during the first reintroduction in GYA and ID. I'm speculating but they are now proposed for delisting because they have reached recovery goals. By law, that is the only way to delist a species from the ESA.

Attached is a link with all the info on Gray Wolves and includes all the USFWS decision documents. There is a bunch of it. Orion...your factual answer is likely in there somewhere. Good luck.

From: WapitiBob
31-Dec-19
" If/when they are delisted, the uninformed liberal urban voters of Colorado can dictate."

(g) MONITORING.—(1) The Secretary shall implement a system in cooperation with the States to monitor effectively for not less than five years the status of all species which have recovered to the point at which the measures provided pursuant to this Act are no longer necessary and which, in accordance with the provisions of this section, have been removed from either of the lists published under subsection (c).

From: Grey Ghost
31-Dec-19
Orion,

They were listed at the time of reintroduction to other states. The reintroduction programs in Wyoming and Montana were created and implemented by a Dem administration (Clinton). Once they reach recovery goals, the feds delist them, and the states take control.

I don't think our current administration has any plans to reintroduce wolves in Colorado. So, as long as they stay listed, Colorado voters can't force the issue. However, if this administration delists the wolves in all of the lower 48, which they're considering, then Colorado voters can and will decide if they are reintroduced. I'd rather take my chances with the feds than Colorado voters, right now.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
31-Dec-19
Monitoring is not managing. Noticed that it says “the states.” That’s because they are no longer on the ESA and no longer under federal jurisdiction. GG is right. If they are delisted then it’s a states matter. The USFWS will have no jurisdiction to manage wolves if they are Delisted from the ESA.

From: HH
31-Dec-19
They been listed for a long time. 95 maybe.

This was a very detailed long term strategy by the left.

Lots if Wood Boogers who worked on the intro had no idea of Clinton Plan! Was tied into Brady Ban. It was and is The Long War on Hunting to get a result on 2nd Amend ruling.

They should abandon this strategy. The current Admin has crippled this plan by filling many high court Judge Vacancies.

Stall tactics must be used in CO. CO can get anti wolf support once the DJT Admin has House and Senate or another term.

Politics of the Wolf is in JD Kings book. Get educated.

K

From: Grey Ghost
31-Dec-19
The whole irony of Colorado's situation is those who are opposed to reintroduction, should also be opposed to delisting wolves. Which puts conservative Colorado voters in the awkward position of opposing the current administration's efforts to delist them.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
31-Dec-19
The gray wolf has been listed since 1978.

From: brunse
31-Dec-19

From: Glunt@work
31-Dec-19
I'm hoping for delisting in the Great Lakes region and stopping there for now. Populations were met in that region a long time ago and the USFW delisted them. The courts overturned it and they were relisted.

From: HH
31-Dec-19
Yes Gray in Gray listing.

First cages acknowledged on GVT land in Jellystone was around 95ish.

USFS site can provide many details. Dont take it for hranted if you pull dates or milestones from any other sites. Wolf Politics!

K

From: goelk
31-Dec-19
grasshopper that was tough to watch.

31-Dec-19

Habitat for Wildlife's Link
Here is what our environmental science professor posted on FB.

Hunters obviously could keep the prey numbers in check while bringing in money for the state. This is what we face.

From: HH
01-Jan-20
Great Article. You see how they're using this testube made wolf everywhere. We need help From DC. We need Don Jr!

K

From: Whitey
01-Jan-20
100 thousandth wolf thread in 25 years and not one wolf reintroduction has been stopped. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

From: Glunt@work
01-Jan-20
I dont know many who expect different results. Most I know see the odds of stopping the pro wolfers as slim.

My plan for the Colorado wolf issue is to have a new 6.5 Creedmoor ready to go with drops out to 1000 so when we get the green light I can try and put a pelt on the wall.

01-Jan-20
Whitey, nobody’s saying reintroduction can be stopped. The trick is gaining control after the forced-down-your-throat reintroduction. Many/most said Wyoming was arrogant for not compromising like Montana and Idaho. Thanks to a higher court ruling the lower courts (Mallory) were wrong, we have regained control without compromise.

From: Tlhbow
01-Jan-20
That was a nice write up in the Steamboat Pilot and Today in the comments section on 12/31/2019 by Paul regarding opinions.

From: Paul@thefort
01-Jan-20
Thanks Tlhbow. I have added my write up you refer to. My best, Paul

Let’s face the truth. This issue is not about being anti-wolf in Colorado; it is all about being against the FORCED REINTRODUCTION of large numbers of the Canadian Gray Wolf into Colorado over time. There is a huge difference between Want and Need and those who WANT to FORCE greater numbers of the gray wolf into Colorado will do anything they can to get them here in greater numbers than if they just migrate in, as they have been and are doing currently. There is already the presence of wolves in Colorado which have migrated in. Those who WANT to Force the reintroduction of the Gray Wolf into Colorado found a “loop hole” in that Colorado is a ballot initiative state and that wildlife issues can be tested before the general public and many times against the recommendations of the Colorado Wildlife Commission. Those forcing the issue, have already spent nearly one million dollars to get Ballot Initiative 107 to the voting public in November of 2020. It has been reported that 99% of those monies and support came from out of state sources.

Ballot Initiative 107, many believe, is full of FALSE narratives as follows: 1. Wolves will only be introduced on Public land. 2, Wolves will only be introduced west of the Continental Divide. 3. Once established, the Gray Wolf will bring back the critical balance of Nature to Colorado. Oh, and 4. Wolves were eliminated in Colorado over 80 years ago; and while that is true, only 1.2 million persons resided in Colorado at that time; currently Colorado is pushing 6,000,000 residents statewide. Colorado has twice the population of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming combined where some wolves reside today. More than ten years ago, the Parks and Wildlife Commission approved a plan entitled, "Findings and Recommendations for Managing Wolves which Migrate into Colorado," which was in response to the reintroduction of the gray wolf by the USFWS into the Yellowstone National Park area. That same year a migrating wolf from Wyoming was found dead on Colorado's West I-70, and others have been observed since then.

The above plan (CPW Resolution 16-01 can be found on the CPW website) was developed by a group with various interests in Colorado, ie., Colorado Wolf Management Working Group, made up of environmentalists, sportsmen, local government, wildlife biologists and livestock producers. The results were comprehensive and not anti-wolf at all but developed a Colorado Wolf Management framework as follows: 1. accepting a (migrating) wolf presence in Colorado with conditions. 2. urging that wolves migrating into Colorado be allowed to live with "no boundaries" where they find habitat 3. advocating that wolves be left wherever found, providing they ae not causing problems 4. taking measures to avoid conflicts through non-lethal methods if possible and if wolves cause problems, manage them to resolve the problem 5. recommending that funding for wolf management come from sources other than hunting license sales, and then, the Resolution concluded that: "any introduction or reintroduction of the wolves into Colorado is a potential conflict with the State's livestock industry and current big game management efforts." The current Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission, appointed by the Governor, and then approved by the State Legislature, for the past 100 years, is mandated to oversee and then using current scientific big and small game management here in Colorado (not Ballot Box Biology), resolved the following: "That the (current year 2016) Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission affirms its support of the Wolf Working Group's recommendations adopted by the Wildlife Commission in May 2005, OPPOSING the intentional release of any wolves into Colorado......" (adopted, January 13, 2016)

Most Colorado citizens believe in the legitimacy of the Colorado Wildlife Commission and the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Director and staff to scientifically manage Colorado's big game populations and we should follow their lead and recommendations concerning this forced wolf introduction issue. If you understand and believe in the science of Colorado’s wild game management and the North American Conservation Model, you will support their recommendations.

Currently, there are 21 Colorado Counties (more to come) which have signed a County Resolution opposing the forced reintroduction of the gray wolf into Colorado. (Five of those are Front Range Counties) These counties have studied and examined the effects that forced introduction of the gray wolf may have on its communities, its citizens, its wildlife and its livestock, both commercial and domestic.

No doubt the subject of the wolf can be a very emotional subject and the voting public needs to examine all sides of this Colorado issue before voting for or against the Forced Introduction of the gray wolf to Colorado.. I would recommend visiting the Colorado Parks and Wildlife website and also visit the Stopthewolf.org website and see for yourself that there is more to this Wolf issue than one can imagine.

My best, Paul Navarre, Ft. Collins Colorado

From: Mad Trapper
02-Jan-20
Very well written Paul!

02-Jan-20
Very well written. Not an emotional rant but factual.

I would think the single most important line item to fight for is how it is funded.

Hunters should not be forced to fund this “Reintroduction”

From: HH
02-Jan-20
That's a sensical way to write a opposition to the wolf in CO. Folks with common sense will agree. Unfortunately your going to have to burn the barn down to get the Subaru's, Grannys in LA and NY, Humane Society etc to even look or listen.

Need to combatively contrast and compare the lies of all the internet garbage and bring in JD King, Don Trump Jr, the USFS experts. Use there own GVT data from the last wolf infections of the past. You fill up a small trawler with the lies from the Org's and GVT from the forced infection in Jellystone all those years ago.

K

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