Be sure to tune in to the Great American Tales: The Wolf War, Modern Predator Management tonight at Friday, 7 PM ET and 3 AM ET on Saturday.
Should make for an interesting conversation after viewing. Paul Navarre, Larimer County rep, Colorado Stop The Wolf Coalition.
What audience are you trying to attract?
The voters who will decide the issue don't watch it.
If money is the issue, PBS would be a better venue.
Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into the crap fight that the other now extinct Colorado wolf thread did.
Wolves had scourged Wisconsin and the UP..... Our DNR is in love with them. We even have volunteer wolf trackers, to keep up with getting the numbers on them. Yet these trackers do not see what we see, those of us who are in the woods,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The last time Wis was allowed to hunt and trap them, their was alarm from even our own DNR, how good the sportsmen were at it.... Of course we do not have the mountains like out west, just vast northern swamps, but, tags were filled fast........
Our DNR assured us the capacity for the state should be 350 wolves. Now they have said we can handle more. They come up with something like 800 wolves for a population.... More like 1500 from those in the know.............
We all know the problems, its a darn shame, that traditional conservation has fallen to the nut jobs on the environmental movement........
One program that might air it is Front Line, which is on the PBS market,,,,,,
For all of those in Colorado,,,,, Good Luck,,,,, you have more people than we do, and when you look at the ratio, there will be more damage and interaction out there
Nothing personal against Keith, but I certainly would have liked to see someone like Rinella or Newberg host this program, much better spoken, and not made it sound like a commercial.
Maybe it's worth saving the effort until after the vote when it goes to court. That's where it's gonna end up anyway if it passes.
When outdoor writers and magazines start showing the public what is really going on. We watch shows from Africa where lions are killing baby gazelles so why don't we have videos of wolves killing moose calves? Minnesota has documents proving that wolves are responsible for 75% of moose calves killings but nobody cares. The public thinks that wolves eat grass.
That's a shame, Lou. what can we do to change that? Most of my neighbors understand proper wildlife management.
I tried to watch this program with the eyes and mind of one who knows nothing of the wolf issue but might vote in favor of the introduction of the wolf into Colorado because one might think it would be cool and in their mind, do something "green" and for the environment.
By using the above model and then watching the program, it might get one to think more of the wolf issue and maybe look farther into the subject but as we might know, the general voting public will not see this program
I also believe at this time, the vast majority of voters in Colorado know nothing of this wolf issue., do not know about Ballot Initiative 107 or the current action to get 125,000 signatures to get it on the ballot in 2020. It is also a possibility that the majority of Colorado's hunters know not much of the issue, and have not gotten involved as I have spoken with a few.
Since this program was shown on the Outdoor Channel, I would hope more hunters are now aware of the issue Nation wide and would more research on the issue.
my best, Paul.
This video needs to get to every woman and mother voter in Colorado. If you can get the women to vote no, you will win the election and this ballot initiative will go away.
Share the link on your facebook pages, this is what happens to pets in backyards.
Thats tough to watch!
I fully agree that the right people won’t see this for the most part, but someone has to start somewhere. Not being in the area where this is happening, all I’m gonna get is what I read on here, or on some other forum. Let’s face it, if it ain’t happening to us, we all have a tendency to put our own cares on the front burner and leave others on the back. I’m about done hunting the West, but this wolf crap, sooner or later, is gonna effect almost every hunter in this country. The successes of the huggers breed more of the same. Wolf introduction is going on in NM, in the SE, and at least talked about for South Texas, (although the Mexican Gray or the Red Wolf will never pose the threat to game or livestock that a 150 pound Canadian will). We have enough predators in the form of cougars and coyotes to go around.
Like i was saying about the Rocky Mt wolf . Gone ..... extinct.
Wolfies brought in the Super large northern Gray.
Check the link guy worked for USFWS for 30yrs. This jad been out there and others where they crossed Gray with Artics and recrossed with Grays for the Super Wolf in Wy, MT and ID.
The link above has a bunch of mentions of the players involed. You cam do the digging yourself to follow the money. Not hard. All open source.
People must know this Wolf was never native to CO or anywhere else in western states.
When they realized it was not going to happen per the CPW (DOW) as the Wildlife Commission is on record opposing the introduction, they found another way. The other way was the Ballot Initiative as Colorado is a Ballot Initiative state and allows game management issues to be voted on by the general public. The pro wolfers will rely on EMOTION, not science or facts, to get their message across and then hope to get the majority of the Colorado voters to vote in favor of the Initiative.
As stated before, the USFWS still is in control ( listed) of the wolf in Colorado so until that changes...............................................it is anyone's guess the future. The next 9 months should be interesting. my best, Paul
I see it strange that you had these so called Science experts in the Biology field in last thread that are not here with their agendas of fake science! This wolf issues clearly goes back to early 1990's and is all open source info.
What the CO Fight the Wolf coalition should do is partner up with anyone who'll get on board even if they maybe an enemy in another area of thought. Problem with fighting the Looney Left and Leaf Lickers is that they will call you Racists, Animal Abusers and will tie this not only to your name but your line of work, Job. Industry, Church, what have you. Your coalition needs to be ruthless and scorch the earth or these folks will see through you. I really think that this will trickle through election year and these folks will get the ear of Don Jr, you have a chance.
Look below at this Link. This is another of at least 20 that are $ing in on these city dwellars who rather give $ to wild dogs than to Americans ,Vets, Hungry and Homeless! The Center for Biological Diversity. A trove of half truth and outright lies and misinformation. Since its on the Internet it must be real and these Earth Muffins have a need to believe!
These folks are your school too. I am sure these people have Wolfers in you kids schools in CO. You can bet on it!
Now here is a site that is a big part of the problem. These folks are your jet-setters who land in Sun Valley on Leer jets and buzz down to Jackson Hole for the night, etc.
This page here has misinformation on every page and outright lies. One would never know it unless you look into it. This Myths page should be called Fake Wolf Myths.
Paul, did you mean "Elbert" not "Albert" county?
Good thing BS has Internet Police
Another question. If a state-wide referendum to reintroduce wolves is passed, what influence will these county resolutions have over it?
Wolf = Big Money
If so I have killed plenty!!!
The University of N Carolina has test tubed plenty of they super Yotes and then got a southern law firm to fight on through victory as a species and they are clone/making them ( I mean raising them). These dogs will legally or illegally will be released in Uwharri Nation Forest for sure.
You have not even scratched the surface to the new reality that the Liberal Earth Muffins have and will use the endangered species act and the dog predator to limit human and hunting rights without question. And.... When they have enough dog predators they will start with other extinct critters using the Wolf Pandemic Model of today.
Most of Colorado geographically is conservative or at least in the middle but like many States, the front range, ski towns and few odd rural areas are enough to overwhelm the rest of the State at election time.
We were purple for quite a while but not so much any more.
Dont Lick Leaves or Bite on Bark
Bad for the sensibilities.
Glunt , then CO is gonna go way of the NYC radical AOC and the Cidiots.
Those pics on the website HH posted are coyotes NOT red wolves.
So instead of getting your panties in a wad Highlife learn the ways of the pro wolfies and anti hunters instead of trying to get a shot in on a fellow hunter
Sure it’s on a hunting network but look who they are interviewing. Politicians. Who make wolf policy.
It’s politicians we need to win over. The Libs aren’t listening to the public or the Biologists.
So we need to build a bulkhead against these Lunatics.
Be fruitful and get your buddies to come to bowsite for the New Bowsite : for a hunter centiric future.
I do find it curious that those that go out of their way to antagonize those of us that are against re-introduction, are from Kansas, Illinois, etc.
Divide and Conquer.
So in NC you are not allowed to shoot coyotes?
Look for bigger predators to come and the long tail cat of sorts infestuctions from FL to ME.
Follow the $$
Thank you for that information
You more than answered my questions
Paul you guys, us guys really need to get on the Internet Fund Raising kick. That's where the $ is for grass roots Orgs of today. Those donors of 10-15$ add up fast. You put multiple sites up cha-ching! You can do things and organize more freely, put on Demo's, go to schools, travel to demonstrate against the wolf in WA DC, etc, etc.
Stop The Wolf has every donor's email address. So they pay postage, print, stuff and mail hard copy letters to everyone asking for more money? That is so 1980's.
Guy would bring in the $.
Big problem and you see it here on Bowsite. That you have bow hunters who are actually in the Wolfie club. They see a place for GrAy Wolf which is not the wolf if our Rockies. It was the Rockie Mt Timber wolf. Sub species.
You got Bowsiters regurgatating thier fake science. Guys like this are so compartmenalized they cant see the path ahead. Cant connect dots outside thier specialized perview.
Your Org Jaq needs to get a meeting with Don Jr. which can be done. You need P & Y on board as well as B&C, NRA, Comptons.
If you dont you’ll see the wolf sticker and on US Olympic Teams in the Springs!!!
This is all doable.
By the 1960s gray wolves were finally protected under what would become the Endangered Species Act. They had been exterminated from all the contiguous United States except for a portion of Minnesota and Isle Royale National Park in Michigan." Hmmm, thought you posted an article in the last thread that said GRAY wolves were not native to the lower 48, but they were instead Timber wolves. So which is it Science Guy? Which one is accurate? Hard to believe any of these articles that are in CONTRAST to one another. Is a CANADIAN GRAY WOLF any different from a lower 48 GRAY WOLF that migrated down from Canada? HMMM? Just to get the record straight, I don't want ANY species of them forcibly reintroduced into any habitat anywhere, and if they re-establish on their own, they should be hunt-managed like coyotes, or any other predator. Griz should be too. Like a problem bear they should be taken out when they become a problem. By anyone.
Rockies had Timbers in CO and south a bit Pard.
Do some research and comeback. With the libtart bark biter sites they will always print BS.
Yes they lots of plains wolves. Bison calvung alone support most those number there fake science.
They are mostly all Gray Wolves just sub species there of. The northern and the southern Rocky went extinct.
To say the Canada Gray is A northern or Southern Rocky is bold face leaf likckin lie. K
Rocky Mountain Gray Wolf = Canis lupus
They are the same species which is scientific fact.
If you want to discuss regional variations within a species (subspecies) then do so. But enough with the mixing of common names like they are separate species. Buy the way HH, what is the subspecies of the Canadian gray wolf and the extirpated Rocky Mountain gray wolf? How where they physiologically different? Is there any scientific proof or studies that shows the Canadian subspecies are any more proficient at killing big game than the gray wolves that use to inhabit Colorado?
Please refrain from any labels or name calling. I legitimately want to know if you have any science (and not just opinion pieces) to back up any of your claims.
By the way, thanks for the link to the article about wolves killing 120 sheep. That was new info to me. Do you have any more info on incidents like the one you posted or was that particular incident the exception?
A cous us a whitetail. You Saavy?
I have do my reading and historical research. The imperical evidence is there that CO Nothern Timber sub species is gone they know the date of last kill and where. That specific wolf went extinct. Its clearly listed on worlds extinct wolf sub species. Replacing it with a wolves from cunnuckistan which averages 25-35lbs larger, has different hunting abilities and will pack up to 20 dogs is just not the wolf of the Northern Rockies never was. Show me your wolf is or was.
It doesn’t make sense to me. Many here say the gray wolves from the Great Lakes region have killed all the moose. In isle Royal there is good data that they did greatly affect moose populations. So you think using the gray wolves from the Great Lakes region would be more appropriate because they are less likely to kill elk? I don’t follow.
With the cous and white-tailed deer example. They are the same species just like the gray wolves but different subspecies. If you took a cous deer and reintroduced them to KS and they were isolated from existing wt deer, it would not take that many generations before the cous deer would start to look a lot like other KS white-tails. Form follows function. You’re a self proclaimed pig hunting guy. How many generations did it take the domesticated pigs to physiologically change? Yes, the Canadian gray wolf subspecies is larger but it likely would not take many generations for their physiology to change. To adapt. Just like Trapper was saying.
While you are researching maybe it would be good to look at the wolf harvest records from ID. I’ll bet the average weight is in line with the extirpated subspecies that use to inhabit the U.S, Rocky Mountains. However, I have not looked it up so that is my guess/opinion. It’s not fact and I’m not pretending it is. But it would be interesting info.
And thanks for avoiding the name calling in your response.
Maybe a few small none 140lb wolves who dont pack up in big hunting troops in deep winter snows would be ok. The wolves forced in are and never were part of CO’s environment.
Hate to make comparisons with other species but it serves useful for folks to understand.
Thing is , you have the older grandmas back with $ wholl donate to Humane Soc, Apsca, Save whales and Wolves. They see the Blue Dog Chow commecials and give chit tons of $.
Some of us should put together a big Non Profit 501c or E for Outdoorsmen nation wide to fight these NY, CT, NJ, RI gandmums.
National Outdoor Pastimes Action Fund
This is definitely a concerned subject that will affect the future generations to come. Hope it don't get too heated and personal so it gets pulled.
Thanks A Paul's for starting it.
I'm not a biologist and even folks who are can disagree on when a population is officially a subspecies. Biologists around at the time felt they had enough data to designate them as a subspecies but either way, they were a smaller wolf. I have no idea if its 10 generations or 1,000 generations for introduced wolves to take on the regional size and behavior differences that once existed. Colorado is a very different place and the wolves won't be eating the same prey and won't be butting up against the same neighboring subspecies like they were in 1800.
There’s always got to be at least one guy incapable of self reflection. What does that make you? A Johnny come lately and a bench warmer cause I haven’t seen you post on this thread or the other one that was locked. Do you got something to add to the discussion or do you always sit on the sideline and point your finger and laugh?
Hey Paul, any answer on how influential the county resolutions will be if the state-wide referendum passes?
Thanks. I'll wait for Paul's response, since he seems to be involved with the politics more than most of us.
Umm, I asked the question, I didn't speculate about what I "feel".
As for federal law, I think it's pretty well established that the best way to keep the reintroduction from happening in Colorado is to keep the wolves on the ESA. As long as they are listed, the feds have jurisdiction over them. If/when they are delisted, the uninformed liberal urban voters of Colorado can dictate.
Attached is a link with all the info on Gray Wolves and includes all the USFWS decision documents. There is a bunch of it. Orion...your factual answer is likely in there somewhere. Good luck.
(g) MONITORING.—(1) The Secretary shall implement a system in cooperation with the States to monitor effectively for not less than five years the status of all species which have recovered to the point at which the measures provided pursuant to this Act are no longer necessary and which, in accordance with the provisions of this section, have been removed from either of the lists published under subsection (c).
They were listed at the time of reintroduction to other states. The reintroduction programs in Wyoming and Montana were created and implemented by a Dem administration (Clinton). Once they reach recovery goals, the feds delist them, and the states take control.
I don't think our current administration has any plans to reintroduce wolves in Colorado. So, as long as they stay listed, Colorado voters can't force the issue. However, if this administration delists the wolves in all of the lower 48, which they're considering, then Colorado voters can and will decide if they are reintroduced. I'd rather take my chances with the feds than Colorado voters, right now.
This was a very detailed long term strategy by the left.
Lots if Wood Boogers who worked on the intro had no idea of Clinton Plan! Was tied into Brady Ban. It was and is The Long War on Hunting to get a result on 2nd Amend ruling.
They should abandon this strategy. The current Admin has crippled this plan by filling many high court Judge Vacancies.
Stall tactics must be used in CO. CO can get anti wolf support once the DJT Admin has House and Senate or another term.
Politics of the Wolf is in JD Kings book. Get educated.
First cages acknowledged on GVT land in Jellystone was around 95ish.
USFS site can provide many details. Dont take it for hranted if you pull dates or milestones from any other sites. Wolf Politics!
Habitat for Wildlife's Link
Hunters obviously could keep the prey numbers in check while bringing in money for the state. This is what we face.
My plan for the Colorado wolf issue is to have a new 6.5 Creedmoor ready to go with drops out to 1000 so when we get the green light I can try and put a pelt on the wall.
Let’s face the truth. This issue is not about being anti-wolf in Colorado; it is all about being against the FORCED REINTRODUCTION of large numbers of the Canadian Gray Wolf into Colorado over time. There is a huge difference between Want and Need and those who WANT to FORCE greater numbers of the gray wolf into Colorado will do anything they can to get them here in greater numbers than if they just migrate in, as they have been and are doing currently. There is already the presence of wolves in Colorado which have migrated in. Those who WANT to Force the reintroduction of the Gray Wolf into Colorado found a “loop hole” in that Colorado is a ballot initiative state and that wildlife issues can be tested before the general public and many times against the recommendations of the Colorado Wildlife Commission. Those forcing the issue, have already spent nearly one million dollars to get Ballot Initiative 107 to the voting public in November of 2020. It has been reported that 99% of those monies and support came from out of state sources.
Ballot Initiative 107, many believe, is full of FALSE narratives as follows: 1. Wolves will only be introduced on Public land. 2, Wolves will only be introduced west of the Continental Divide. 3. Once established, the Gray Wolf will bring back the critical balance of Nature to Colorado. Oh, and 4. Wolves were eliminated in Colorado over 80 years ago; and while that is true, only 1.2 million persons resided in Colorado at that time; currently Colorado is pushing 6,000,000 residents statewide. Colorado has twice the population of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming combined where some wolves reside today. More than ten years ago, the Parks and Wildlife Commission approved a plan entitled, "Findings and Recommendations for Managing Wolves which Migrate into Colorado," which was in response to the reintroduction of the gray wolf by the USFWS into the Yellowstone National Park area. That same year a migrating wolf from Wyoming was found dead on Colorado's West I-70, and others have been observed since then.
The above plan (CPW Resolution 16-01 can be found on the CPW website) was developed by a group with various interests in Colorado, ie., Colorado Wolf Management Working Group, made up of environmentalists, sportsmen, local government, wildlife biologists and livestock producers. The results were comprehensive and not anti-wolf at all but developed a Colorado Wolf Management framework as follows: 1. accepting a (migrating) wolf presence in Colorado with conditions. 2. urging that wolves migrating into Colorado be allowed to live with "no boundaries" where they find habitat 3. advocating that wolves be left wherever found, providing they ae not causing problems 4. taking measures to avoid conflicts through non-lethal methods if possible and if wolves cause problems, manage them to resolve the problem 5. recommending that funding for wolf management come from sources other than hunting license sales, and then, the Resolution concluded that: "any introduction or reintroduction of the wolves into Colorado is a potential conflict with the State's livestock industry and current big game management efforts." The current Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission, appointed by the Governor, and then approved by the State Legislature, for the past 100 years, is mandated to oversee and then using current scientific big and small game management here in Colorado (not Ballot Box Biology), resolved the following: "That the (current year 2016) Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission affirms its support of the Wolf Working Group's recommendations adopted by the Wildlife Commission in May 2005, OPPOSING the intentional release of any wolves into Colorado......" (adopted, January 13, 2016)
Most Colorado citizens believe in the legitimacy of the Colorado Wildlife Commission and the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Director and staff to scientifically manage Colorado's big game populations and we should follow their lead and recommendations concerning this forced wolf introduction issue. If you understand and believe in the science of Colorado’s wild game management and the North American Conservation Model, you will support their recommendations.
Currently, there are 21 Colorado Counties (more to come) which have signed a County Resolution opposing the forced reintroduction of the gray wolf into Colorado. (Five of those are Front Range Counties) These counties have studied and examined the effects that forced introduction of the gray wolf may have on its communities, its citizens, its wildlife and its livestock, both commercial and domestic.
No doubt the subject of the wolf can be a very emotional subject and the voting public needs to examine all sides of this Colorado issue before voting for or against the Forced Introduction of the gray wolf to Colorado.. I would recommend visiting the Colorado Parks and Wildlife website and also visit the Stopthewolf.org website and see for yourself that there is more to this Wolf issue than one can imagine.
My best, Paul Navarre, Ft. Collins Colorado
I would think the single most important line item to fight for is how it is funded.
Hunters should not be forced to fund this “Reintroduction”
Need to combatively contrast and compare the lies of all the internet garbage and bring in JD King, Don Trump Jr, the USFS experts. Use there own GVT data from the last wolf infections of the past. You fill up a small trawler with the lies from the Org's and GVT from the forced infection in Jellystone all those years ago.