Summit Treestands
Took Ebikes out Yesterday
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
KHNC 02-Jan-20
Jaquomo 02-Jan-20
Will 02-Jan-20
Huntcell 02-Jan-20
cnelk 02-Jan-20
Kodiak 02-Jan-20
smarba 02-Jan-20
swede 02-Jan-20
t-roy 02-Jan-20
Brian 02-Jan-20
Pig Doc 02-Jan-20
Will 02-Jan-20
KHNC 02-Jan-20
cnelk 02-Jan-20
KHNC 02-Jan-20
ElkNut1 02-Jan-20
KHNC 02-Jan-20
Pig Doc 02-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 02-Jan-20
ElkNut1 02-Jan-20
Jaquomo 02-Jan-20
Scar Finga 02-Jan-20
BULELK1 03-Jan-20
Candor 03-Jan-20
eBike John 03-Jan-20
elknailer 03-Jan-20
Bowsiteguy 04-Jan-20
Jaquomo 04-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 04-Jan-20
Ziek 04-Jan-20
Ziek 04-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 04-Jan-20
swede 04-Jan-20
APauls 04-Jan-20
Jaquomo 04-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 04-Jan-20
cnelk 04-Jan-20
Jaquomo 04-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 04-Jan-20
Jaquomo 04-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 04-Jan-20
Dale Hajas 05-Jan-20
Jaquomo 05-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-20
Knife Cobbler 05-Jan-20
Jaquomo 05-Jan-20
Knife Cobbler 05-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-20
Jaquomo 05-Jan-20
swede 05-Jan-20
Jaquomo 05-Jan-20
Twinetickler 05-Jan-20
swede 05-Jan-20
Jaquomo 05-Jan-20
cnelk 06-Jan-20
smarba 06-Jan-20
swede 06-Jan-20
elkmtngear 06-Jan-20
cnelk 06-Jan-20
smarba 06-Jan-20
Jaquomo 06-Jan-20
swede 06-Jan-20
smarba 06-Jan-20
NoWiser 06-Jan-20
APauls 06-Jan-20
cnelk 06-Jan-20
swede 06-Jan-20
Jaquomo 06-Jan-20
Jaquomo 06-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-20
Pig Doc 06-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-20
Jaquomo 06-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-20
Jaquomo 06-Jan-20
swede 06-Jan-20
Burt 06-Jan-20
Twinetickler 06-Jan-20
ElkNut1 07-Jan-20
Jaquomo 07-Jan-20
smarba 07-Jan-20
Jaquomo 07-Jan-20
smarba 07-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-20
lewis 07-Jan-20
KHNC 08-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 08-Jan-20
Jaquomo 08-Jan-20
swede 08-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 08-Jan-20
NoWiser 08-Jan-20
swede 08-Jan-20
Grey Ghost 08-Jan-20
Jaquomo 08-Jan-20
NoWiser 08-Jan-20
smarba 08-Jan-20
From: KHNC
02-Jan-20

KHNC's embedded Photo
KHNC's embedded Photo
Put 13 miles on the M2S ebikes yesterday. Pretty easy terrain, so we didnt have the boost very high. Used leg power as much as possible. Not a bad 13 mile afternoon on the broad river in SC.

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-20
Good for you! They are fun, and you can get as much workout as you want. Just read a study where they found ebike riders attained within a couple percentage points of the same cardio workout as conventional riders on the same routes.

Then again, to quote one idiot Bowsite poster, "Couldn't you just walk?", lol!

From: Will
02-Jan-20
Looks fun - good for you!

Jaq, I should screen shot the Heart Rate data for MX racers I work with and bicycle racers. so long as speed was not noted in the image, people would have no idea which was which.

Can the ebike be easier, sure. But it doesnt have to be!

From: Huntcell
02-Jan-20
What style ebike rear hub motor or center hub motor ? I have a M2S rear hub drive really like it on paved roads , hard packed bike trails and two track small elevation change trails.

Have found that mountain bike trails , rough single track trails and non trail cross country or mild inclines of more than 100 yards and any steep inclines i am stopped . Basically if I couldn’t pedal a regular Mt bike on a trail I can’t get a rear drive ebike up there either.

My mistake from what I am reading is I should have bought the mid drive motor for those application . M2S website has same reccommendation but I thought I could get away with the higher mph and longer battery life of rear drive and still do trails , I was wrong .

From: cnelk
02-Jan-20
I bought my ebike in december - Love it. Here is a short video I did a couple weeks ago about some mods I did

From: Kodiak
02-Jan-20
"Just read a study where they found ebike riders attained within a couple percentage points of the same cardio workout as conventional riders on the same routes."

Oh I'll call BS on this.

From: smarba
02-Jan-20
Kodiak: I tend to agree with you. Then again when an e-bike weighs 50 lbs maybe the battery is mainly just helping lug all that extra weight LOL

But seriously. I was riding my road bike up a fairly steep sustained hill commuting home from work a few months ago. I began to hear a distinct treaded rubber tire humming from behind me and here comes a dude with cutoff shorts, tennis shoes, flat pedals no helmet and a flannel shirt on an e-bike. He blew past me. No way we were getting an equivalent workout...

It's not my intent to demean those who ride them, you're still able to get a workout and if it helps you get out there and burn some calories go for it.

From: swede
02-Jan-20
Kodiak: You can get no workout by just using the thumb throttle and riding, or a harder that standard bike workout by just not turning on any assist. My e-bike is 70 pounds. You pretty much get what you want. I do not know about the couple of points on the same route. It is probably mostly hype but I go eight miles per ride, get a good workout, and enjoy my trip.

From: t-roy
02-Jan-20
How steep of an incline will these ebikes climb?

From: Brian
02-Jan-20
I was on e-generation bike website again last night, drooling over the Mule. I have my ATV for sale. I would like the extra cash in my pocket before I pull the trigger. I cannot wait!

From: Pig Doc
02-Jan-20
"Oh I'll call BS on this."

Precious when guys with fake registrations and no supporting data call BS on a guy with a rock solid reputation on this site and a wealth of experience on this topic.

From: Will
02-Jan-20

Will's embedded Photo
Will's embedded Photo
One of these heart rate plots is from a professional mountain bike racer doing a long tempo session... The other is from an age group enduro (motor cycle) racer doing an aggressive race simulation workout... It's not a perfect comparison (at all - so dont get nit picky, it's just an interesting example), but interesting to see that one guy worked harder than the other, while riding a motorized bike :)... (moto on top). the HR looks similar, but the moto guy was at his maximally sustainable rate or very near it, while the cyclist was about 10-15 beats below. I put the dashed lines in at about 150bpm just as a point of reference.

Point being... Can you ride the same course easier on a motorized bike... I'm sure you can, but you sure dont have to - you can work your tail off if you choose.

Heck, this past year was the first UCI eMTB world championships, and the folks who were racing best were also former international pro cross country riders. You can work as hard as you want on an eMTB and even a motorcycle...

(again, the top HR chart was done on an actual motorcycle, vs a mountain bike on the bottom chart)

From: KHNC
02-Jan-20
The M2S version we have is 350W mid drive. No thumb throttle. On the 13 mile ride, we had the boost on 2 of 5 and only one bar was used on the battery. So, at that rate, i assume we could cover 35-40 miles. With more boost, i would assume 25-30. Not likely i will ever travel more than 15 miles on it in a day, especially hunting. I have taken mine up some SERIOUS inclines to test it out. Boost on 5 and lowest gear. I had to pedal hard but it made it all the way up a 150 yd pull without me having to stop. The mid drive matches your output up to 750-800w equivalent. It weighs about 60lbs and is bigger than other versions i have ridden. I am a former MX racer of 10 years. I know the cardio workouts I used to get just running practices moto's for 15-20 mins. Completely exhausting! Just for reference, my garmin watch said i burned 678 cals on the 13 mile ride. On gym days, 4 days per week, i average 650-1000 cals on an hour workout. Usually i am soaked in sweat and exhausted. The bike ride took about 1:45 and my legs and arms were tired, but i was not dead exhausted. Today, it feels like a solid leg day in the gym. To say it wasnt a workout is not accurate. On this trail, the terrain was easy though. I did 5-6 miles on true MTB terrain near the house and was just as tired. Keeping the boost low helps increase the workout.

From: cnelk
02-Jan-20
The way I look at it is for every mile I ride my ebike, is a mile more than I wouldve not having it.

My typical rides are about 8 miles long. Yes, I get a workout, but like Kenny said above, its manageable. I can ride it everyday without having to rest a muscle group. I can feel my legs getting better circulation, lungs working and Geez! - its just damn fun!

And the best part? They are coming to your elk woods

From: KHNC
02-Jan-20
Haha! Its pretty neat that you can ride the fat tire version in the snow. Thats a negative on a regular size tire bike.

From: ElkNut1
02-Jan-20
Damn, I need to get one of those! (grin)

ElkNut/Paul

From: KHNC
02-Jan-20
Do you mean the bike? HAHA! ;)

From: Pig Doc
02-Jan-20
All this eBike talk got me inspired. Just got done ordering the Bakcou Mule, 750 watt, 19" in Kuiu Verde camo.

From: Grey Ghost
02-Jan-20
Congrats KHNC!

I think I've finally gotten my wife warmed up to the idea of getting an e-bike. Of course, that was New Years evening after a few cocktails. It could all change the next time we talk about it. As usual, the way it will go down is I will just show up with it in the back of my pickup one day. She'll throw a fit about spending too much money, then she'll get over it, and probably end up wanting one of her own. .

Matt

From: ElkNut1
02-Jan-20
Yes sir, the E-bike! I've been on the fence, unsure of what models still have umph to get up tough trails & hopefully can do 20 miles+ of it if need be. They certainly have my attention, thanks!

ElkNut/Paul

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-20

Jaquomo's Link
Ok, Kodiak, here's your "B.S." on cardio comparison.

Once again we have a thread where some feel compelled to post crap on topics about which they have no clue.

From: Scar Finga
02-Jan-20
^^^ PERTY TYPICAL^^^^ LOL!

From: BULELK1
03-Jan-20
Good for you 2 and ya look happy too.

I certainly enjoy mine when I take it out.

Good luck, Robb

From: Candor
03-Jan-20
I wonder how these things would handle my vermiculite and red clay roads. They are worse than pluff mud on traction.

From: eBike John
03-Jan-20
Nice pic, lovely day for it!

From: elknailer
03-Jan-20
I had my rad rover at the Compton trad shoot last June, let quit a few friends go for a ride and everyone of them came back with a big ole grin on their face. Just plain fun.

From: Bowsiteguy
04-Jan-20
Jack___, the hard ass again. The Vox/Verge article was an e cheerleading fluff about a test on a rolling course in Utah. I assume Kodiak had in mind something like two bikes starting at the bottom of the same hill arriving at the top at the same time. Equal effort? You have to figure out what it is exactly that you are arguing about. Just because someone doesn’t agree with your opinions doesn’t mean they are automatically wrong, or an “idiot,” or “posting crap.” Settle down.

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-20
I don't know what Kodiak had in mind because he just threw mud, didn't elaborate. Just like I don't know what the hell is wrong with you Bowsiteguy, but as irritable as you appear, you might think about getting checked for food allergies...

I made a statement. Kodiak called B.S. So I posted a link to the study I referenced. Kodiak rolls over and wakes you up and says, "Waaa, Jaquomo supported his position again and my feelings are hurt!" So you get out of bed and post up more distorted nonsense.

And if you want to insult me and call me a jackass, why not go ahead and spell it out?

From: Grey Ghost
04-Jan-20
OK, I actually read the entire study Lou linked to. Each rider rode the same course on both a conventional mountain bike and on a e-bike. The average heart rate on the e-bike was 94% of the heart rate on the conventional bike. But, the average elapsed time to ride the course was 12 minutes and 40 seconds shorter on the e-bikes. So, the e-bike riders maintained almost the same level of exertion, but for only about 2/3 of the time. So, I think it's misleading to suggest an e-bike provides the same level of cardio workout over the same distance.

Matt

From: Ziek
04-Jan-20

Ziek's embedded Photo
Ziek's embedded Photo
We bought ebikes a couple of year's ago, mainly to use when traveling. They're Riese & Muller Tinkers designed as compact bikes for around town. They have 20" wheels, class one (peddle assist only), belt drive (stays cleaner with less maintenance), and the handle bars fold down to make them pretty compact so they fit in the pick-up bed where we can secure them easily while traveling. But we use them for some off-road riding too. Pretty sporty with those small tires on the Slick Rock Bike Trail in Moab. ;-)

The main reason we got them was because my wife has ankle problems and can't ride a regular bike for very long any more. She use to ride a lot, including Ride the Rockies, and Tour of Colorado. The ebike now allows her to stay in the saddle for much longer rides.

From: Ziek
04-Jan-20
"So, I think it's misleading to suggest an e-bike provides the same level of cardio workout over the same distance."

But many who ride for recreation and exercise ride for a period of time, not a specific distance. And for transportation, say to/from work, better an ebike than a car if you're time limited or don't want to arrive soaking wet instead of just damp. Same thing for bowhunting. Why would you want to get to the trail head or your stand, worn out and sweaty when you could ride there more efficiently and rested to start your hunt?

From: Grey Ghost
04-Jan-20
Ziek,

I hear you. I was just responding to Lou's claim that....

" Just read a study where they found ebike riders attained within a couple percentage points of the same cardio workout as conventional riders on the same routes."

The study clearly didn't conclude that.

Matt

From: swede
04-Jan-20
With OFF, six running modes, a thumb throttle, nine gears and an open hilly road, I can get as much of a cardio workout as I want, or as little as I want with my e-bike. With the same road and my mountain bike, I can get all of the workout I want there too. The open road is limitless for me and the different bikes. The difference is that with the e-bike I can have a battery assist in climbing the hills and carrying gear into places I want to hunt or do whatever I choose, and I am not necessarily beat when I arrive. With the e-bike I can go farther than I can with my mountain bike, stay longer and hunt harder because I have not worn myself out just getting to where I want to be. With my e-bike; if I do not get the same cardio workout as with a conventional bicycle, it is because I do not want the same workout, plus I go farther. This was kind of funny to me: Yesterday I went out on my e-bike. The same road and same distance I usually go was covered. Due to rain and the New Year I had not ridden for several days. I always ride in Mode 1. When I got back from my ride I felt less tired than I normally do, so I thought I must have improved a little on my stamina. "I am getting in good shape for hunting season", I thought, until I looked down at the visual display. Somewhere and somehow during the ride I had bumped the mode button, and was in Mode 2 for some time. So much for being in better shape. The sun is shining again this morning, so I am going to jump on the Mule and go for a ride now. Mule was fed again yesterday afternoon. He is full of oats and ready to go as far as I like, but he will be in Mode 1 only. They say a mule has a mind of its own. We will see.

From: APauls
04-Jan-20
With an ebike you’ll easy attain same exertion levels, you’ll just go way further faster in the same time. OR you can do the same distance in the same time as conventional with way less exertion. Or anything in between. Isn’t choice beautiful?

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-20
Matt, I said "on the same route". Yes, the same route.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Jan-20
If you maintain the same heart rate over the same distance, but for 1/3 less time, as the study showed, it isn't the same cardio workout. Not even close.

Matt

From: cnelk
04-Jan-20
I went for another 8 mi ride today. Beautiful weather. 50 degrees- nice cardio workout.

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-20
Matt, other studies show that ebike riders tend to ride further on recreational rides than conventional riders, so it balances out. And it's all about what you put into it. I live in the mountains at 8500' and push myself hard up hills with level 1 assist that I couldn't climb on my conventional MTB. Feels like my quads, heart, and lungs are going to explode. When training, I pump that 55 lb machine up grades with no assist, where my former MTB racing girlfriend on her 21 lb, $6000 conventional MTB is having to push hard. Last summer she said I was an "animal" for climbing some the stuff we ride.

It's all about what you put into it. Like most everything in life.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Jan-20
I get it, Lou. You can go farther on an e-bike for the same amount of cardio workout than on a conventional bike. That's what appealing to me about e-bikes. But, that's different from your original claim.

I can't wait to take an e-bike on some of the trails around my condo in Winter Park. And I'll be a pig in shit with an e-bike, if I draw my trophy unit elk tag in NW CO this year.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-20
Yep, Matt, the point is that you get your heart rate up. How long and how high is up to you. My resting heart rate is only 52-54 so I have to work pretty hard to get it into the 100s.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Jan-20
You’re my hero, Lou. Always have been.

;-).

Matt

From: Dale Hajas
05-Jan-20
How are you guys accessing old threads? Do I do a google search for Bowsite.com ebike? I just found the threads where I contributed so that may help

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-20
Matt, I don't know which unit you're trying for in NW CO but I really REALLY wish I'd had my ebike when I hunted Unit 2. Would have been a game-changer.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-20
See my PM, Lou.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-20
OK guys, I'm very close to pulling the trigger on an e-bike, but I'm undecided on which one. I'm a fairly large guy (6'4" and 240#), which seems to limit my options some. I think I've narrowed it down to the Rambo 750XPC or the Bakcou Mule 750. Equally accessorized with a rear luggage rack, they are about the same price.

Can anyone give me a quick rundown of the pros and cons to each of these models? Or is there another model I should be considering? Thanks!

Matt

05-Jan-20
I have the Rambo, now in my 3rd year. I use it for wt hunting on private ground here in Buffalo county WI and last fall in Kansas. I am 6' 2 and 225, so about the same. I have pounded the bike, and put it through the paces. I am honest about it, not a fan boy or justifying my purchase in any way.

The bike for me is overall a good tool. I would buy one again. Having said that some cons:

When I am geared up, pack, hunting clothes and bow, I feel the bike struggles on some of the hills here. I had to email the company and they sent me a different sprocket and chain. It would slip when I pressured the pedals to get up some hills. My partner with the same bike weighing around 170 soaking wet had way less issues with that. The hills here are short and really steep, the bike would not go up them, no way, no how. Dont let anyone fool you, they are limited for bigger guys.

I also dont like the fact the pedals have too little ground clearance when in some ruts, or turning corners. I wish they were farther off the ground.

I wish I would have gotten the shocks on my bike, I get pretty beat up out here on some trails. I would have liked hydraulic brakes also, my disc brakes really squeak sometimes in the morning when Im trying to be stealthy. It is REALLY loud in the quiet dark thirty times.

I have a trek mountain bike that is built like a tank and has had no issues in 15 years. This bike, the actual bike, is built pretty cheaply I think. The cost is in the motor. The bike has had lots of things rattle loose, nuts and bolts , handle bars, the grips have already been replaced etc. Its high maintenence, not in the same league as a high end fat tire or mountain bike. The bike also has an audible click click when coasting, it drives me nuts. I wish it was dead silent.

The battery life is an issue for me also, I wish it lasted longer. My hunting shack has no power, so recharging is an issue. The cold weather seems to affect it a lot. Tried a power inverter, bad answer. Have not tried a solar charger, thats my next venture.

I had 2 flats in Kansas, my own fault. I found out what honey locust trees are all about, stuck in the middle of Kansas with 2 flats, not a lot of bike shops in the area :) Not having the bike really limited my time getting to some of my areas.

I think the pros here have been covered well, I would do it all again with a little more knowledge. I love the bike for checking areas, cameras etc. without having to fire up my truck. It is a great addition to the tool box.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-20
Knife Cobbler, I also wish the pedals had more clearance. I'm 6' 4' and a little over 200# and have no issues climbing the steepest stuff I can find where I live in the CO mountains. I am also upgrading to the front fork with shocks later this spring. Costs about $150. As for flats, after getting a couple right away I installed tire liners and am happy that I did. Otherwise I love the bike, ride it hard in rough rocky terrain, and have not had anything rattle loose, etc..

05-Jan-20
Im sure you can with a tank top and bike shorts. Im geared up with sitka bibs, a bow, pack, rubber boots etc. I guess maybe your bike just has a better motor, my biggest incline here gets me to the top of my property. No way will the bike make it, when your geared up, it is limited for me. I actually bought the bike just to get up that ridge trail, and was pretty disapointed. Maybe the 1000 was a better option, but $$ prohibitive.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-20
Thanks Knife.

Hopefully they’ve addressed some of the cons you mentioned in the last 3 years.

The pedal clearance of the Rambo concerns me. I have that same problem with my regular mountain bike, and it’s annoying and dangerous at times. I tried researching which models offer more clearance, but didn’t find any info.

I’ve reached out to ebike John for recommendations.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-20

Grey Ghost's Link
On the pedal clearance issue, I've read that you can get shorter cranks to improve clearance. 170mm is the standard. The article I read concluded 160mm worked the best, overall.

Anyone know what length cranks they put on the Rambo model, and if they can be swapped out for shorter ones?

Matt

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-20
I'm sure Rambo is 175 mm and the crank is standard, so I'm going to try swapping with the 160 to see if it makes a difference.

From: swede
05-Jan-20
I have the Bakcou Mule 750. I don't know of anything I would do to the basic bike to improve on it. I am not a bike expert by any means, but my only thoughts are about equipping it for camping and packing things in and out.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-20
Swede, just for comparative info would you measure your minimum pedal clearance to ground?

From: Twinetickler
05-Jan-20
Here is a clip of a hill climb on my Biktrix Juggernaut. My Dad and I used ours extensively hunting this fall. From high country elk hunting to mid November freezing cold temps hunting whitetail. The 4 wheelers collect dust anymore. As Brad and others have said they are not only effective, but a ton of fun!

Biktrix Juggernaut hill climb! - YouTube https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s75aujgHMeQ

From: swede
05-Jan-20
As best I can measure it has just a little over 5 inches clearance on the low side of the pedal, with the bicycle totally vertical. My bike has the 17 inch frame.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-20
Cool, thanks. I'll measure my Rambo tomorrow.

From: cnelk
06-Jan-20
Heres a direct link to Twinetickler's YouTube video. In this video you can tell that pedaling these things isnt a walk in the park

From: smarba
06-Jan-20
This thread has gotten sidetracked from the OP "I'm out having fun on my new ebike".

I do not want to discourage him from riding it and having fun.

However, I find it interesting that the views presented by proponents of ebikes "almost the same cardio"; "the same impact on the trails as a MTB"; etc. are very similar to the views presented by Xbow proponents.

Both technologies are designed to make something easier so more people can join. Yet Xbows are evil and ebikes are wonderful LOL.

I personally don't think mountain biking needs to be made easier. It's a slippery slope. Right now there is a limit on the power of an ebike regarding whether it can be ridden where MTB can. Just like letoff on bows, that limit will continue to increase. And many models online have limiters to meet the standard, but adjustability to boost the power if the rider chooses to do so (um, nobody would do that, right?).

What happens when a 2 wheeled ebike is "too difficult" for me to ride because I don't have good balance? Can I use a 3 wheeled ebike? And then a 4 wheeled quad ebike? and then what?

I realize with national forest and others now defining ebikes as usable where MTB can be used there's no stopping them.

I just find it amusing that some use the same arguments for use of ebikes, while they denounce others using similar arguments for use of Xbows.

Carry on.

From: swede
06-Jan-20
Smarba: I disagree. We have always had limitations on the weapons we can use on big game. Comparing limits on cross bows to allowing e-bikes is the same as arguing because we are against hunting with machine guns, we should require everyone to drive to camp in a Model T Ford truck.

From: elkmtngear
06-Jan-20
Had a failure in NM, when riding with KHNC, on a borrowed E-bike. Interface cable had come unplugged...and being to green to figure out what had happened...I had to coast off the top of the ridge, and ride "old school" back to camp, on the FS road (3 miles, neverending uphill grade).

I can tell you, I was missing that "assist" button...riding a 75 pound mountain bike up a hill is no bueno.

So, you CAN burn way more calories on an E-Bike...my sweat-soaked clothes in 40 degree weather proved it! ;^)

From: cnelk
06-Jan-20
Who said anything about arguing against Xbows? Thats my next purchase! The way I figure, a Xbow will compliment the ebike nicely.

From: smarba
06-Jan-20
"Smarba: I disagree. We have always had limitations on the weapons we can use on big game. Comparing limits on cross bows to allowing e-bikes is the same as arguing because we are against hunting with machine guns, we should require everyone to drive to camp in a Model T Ford truck."

Swede: just like weapons limitations we had limitations to trails/areas for non-motorized (mountain bike/MTB). Now "a little" motor has been defined as OK in those areas. Give it a few years and "more motor" or "more wheels" will be OK.

There are virtually no restrictions for MTB regarding "off road". It is legal to ride cross country wherever you want without a trail. The limiter used to be many places were too difficult to ride under one's own power. Now with "a little" motor more places are accessible.

We (I'm painting with a broad brush here) argue tooth and nail to not allow Xbows in bow seasons because it makes things easier for the masses. But "a little" motor in an unmotorized area is apparently just fine...

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-20
My objection to xbows in archery seasons is that they create more competition for limited tags, and bring more hunters into already crowded OTC public lands. Not about anything being "easier", because compound bow manufacturers have done that already. Your analogy is closer to the trad arguments when compound bows first arrived. "Where will it stop?" They wailed. I remember it all. Substitute "ebike" for compound, and this is simply a rerun from the past.

So let's talk about transportation... I bet almost every hunter who objects to assist bikes drives a 4WD vehicle to where they park and start to hunt. Why? Because it makes many areas more accessible, and frankly, makes it "easier" than driving a '59 Chevy station wagon.

From: swede
06-Jan-20
Even since I started out in the late 1950s, hunting equipment, including transportation, camping gear and bows/guns have changed enormously. I prefer the old ways, but there is no going back. I don't think we should conflate e-bikes and Xbows. I agree with Jaquomo. The issues are different.

From: smarba
06-Jan-20
Perhaps my analogy isn't exactly right. Don't get me wrong I use technology too: compound, laser rangefinder, GPS, whatever.

Issues are different, but similar. Jaq you refer to driving to where you park to start to hunt with a 4x4 versus a 2WD. But the ebike has moved the demarcation of where you park and start to hunt. The line is now into non motorized zones with "a little" motor. Just seems ironic.

By your own words Xbows are bad "because they create more competition for limited tags, and bring more hunters to already crowded OTC public lands". Ebikes have the same potential.

There are closed logging roads all over the place. We gnash our teeth at lazy ATV slobs who break the rules and drive over berms to get where we have hiked to hunt. But taking an ebike there is now hunky dory... Same with cattle trails that ATVs can't fit on because they are too narrow. I believe most of us would be upset if a dirt bike cruised past us on an elk trail, but now ebikes are OK there?

The main reason good areas are good is they are difficult to access. Before ATVs if you hiked half a mile from your parking spot you'd be into game. Then people didn't want to hike so began driving ATVs another half mile from the parking spot. So now the good areas are a little farther than an ATV will get you. So let's start using ebikes…

Don't get me wrong, the rules have changed: ebikes are now legal. I may well get one to access areas just like others are doing. It's just unclear why some "improvements" are applauded and others are scorned. A little inconsistent if you ask me.

From: NoWiser
06-Jan-20
Logic doesn’t apply to this topic on Bowsite, Smarba. Don’t waste your time. For the record I agree with you 100%.

From: APauls
06-Jan-20
Grey Ghost, Does the Rambo have the brush deflectors for the chain and derailleur? The Bakcou does which is a major selling feature for me. My Bakcou has no chain issues like Cobbler, but I'm also only tipping the scales at 165lbs fighting weight. Can't remember exactly but I thought the components were better but I could be wrong. I also forget what technology is in the tires in the Mule, but they are supposed to be very difficult to get flats in. The mule does have front suspension as well as some kind of miniature suspension on the seat post. I'm no bike guy so please excuse my lack of term knowledge. The stock battery that comes on the Mule is 14.5AH vs the Rambo's 11.6AH, so another win there. You've got 9 gears on the Mule, and I believe 3 on the Rambo? Could be wrong on that. Best thing to do is talk to John at ebike Generation. The guy lives and breathes these things and will point you straighter than your own research can get you, especially since you've narrowed it down to 2 bikes that he sells. He can give you the skinny on what is what.

Lastly, the Mule comes in Kuiu vs the Rambo in some kind of home-brew Viper camo?? Camaaaaan. lol

I know I've absolutely abused the Mule. Rammed through brush, overloaded it, taken it down cliffs, and used it in -20 degrees. It keeps asking for more so I have no complaints yet. Although I will agree with others saying more clearance would be nice.

From: cnelk
06-Jan-20
The areas I hunt elk are laced with approved motocross/dirtbike trails - single tracked ones. Ive found out the elk love to walk these trails at night. Ive also found out that most MX riders like to party and sleep in.

So, instead of hiking these miles of approved MX trails, Im going to ebike them. No hiking at 4am, no going around gates....No gas smell.... Win. Win.

Good God I cant wait to take pics of packing out elk on my ebike/trailer.

From: swede
06-Jan-20
lol Using smarba's logic, every woman in America should have become a baker with the invention of the electric mixer. Let's not forget the electric range. She is sure cheating not working over a wood fired stove.

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-20
Just curious as to why ebike haters don't seem to possess the same venom toward horses? Horses make it easy to go anywhere, even deep into wilderness where the demarcation point is beyond where foot-bound hunters can go. They provide zero physical benefit, require zero physical effort, give users an unfair advantage, and tear the shit out of trails.

Yet whenever there is a drop camp or horse packing thread, the haters stay silent. Hmmm....

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-20
Adam, my 2017 Rambo has 7 rear sprockets and 9 levels of assist. Don't know if they've changed it since then. Has a derailleur guard on the hub. I've never had any chain issues either, even when riding fully-loaded with pack and bow (my total weight would be around 250# then).

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-20
I had the privilege of helping two 65-plus year old men pack a monster bull out last season. They were on e-bikes, I was on foot. It was truly inspiring seeing those ol' boys fly past me with full hind quarters strapped to the luggage racks of their e-bikes, and with huge smiles on their faces. They covered the 8 mile round trip twice in the time it took me to pack my single load out on foot. I was sold at that moment.

I'm still waiting on ebike John to get back to me. He must be busy filling Christmas orders.

Matt

From: Pig Doc
06-Jan-20
eBike John just filled my order for a Mule. Bakcou has a deal on right now, $500 off if you buy the bike and one of their pull-behind carts. The carts are about $300 so you get a free cart and $200 off the Mule. The Mule has a walk assist which sealed the deal for me. Not sure if the Rambo has that feature or not.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-20
Pig Doc,

Doesn't the 750W Mule also have the option of bumping it up to 1000W, if you want? The more I research, the more I'm leaning towards the Mule.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-20
Rambo does have a walk-assist. Matt, just be aware that 1000w puts it into Class 3 category, which is considered "motorized" by CO law and Department of Interior rules, and not permitted where other bikes can ride. So you'll be much more restricted around Winter Park.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-20
Lou,

Doesn't that 750W restriction only apply if I choose to switch the bike to 1000W? If so, I'm thinking having that option could be nice in certain situations where the Class 3 category doesn't apply.

I was on the eastern plains of Colorado solo hunting pheasants today. It was calm in the morning, and birds were flushing as soon as I parked and turned my pickup engine off. It dawned on me what a game changer an e-bike would be. I could park my pickup well out of range of spooking the birds, then silently ride the e-bike in to closer range.

I can't wait for my new toy.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-20
Dunno how that restriction works. I need to find out how the Class 1-2 distinction works because in Steamboat they only allow Class 1, so can I just unplug the throttle or do I have to remove it? I only ever use it for walk-assist anyway, on stuff too horrible to ride.

From: swede
06-Jan-20
There is no switch on the Mule to bump it up from 750 W. You can order the 750 W or 1,000 W bike. Also the 750 W has the same wiring as the 1,000 W Mule, but I know of no quick modification that will convert one to another. In other words it is time to hear from E-bike John.

From: Burt
06-Jan-20
Don't be hating on my horses Jacquomo. " They provide zero physical benefit, require zero physical effort, give users an unfair advantage, and tear the shit out of trails." You must have never owned and riden horse LOL. Tons of physical work, plenty of costs, and generally a lot more challenging and difficult to ride than any ATV or ebike. When was the last time your bike spooked and dumped you? They do have the side benefits of making ladies happy and deer aren't spooked by them, but definitely not free and easy.

From: Twinetickler
06-Jan-20
One thing to strongly consider is battery size, the larger the battery the longer and further it will last. If they give you an option to upgrade it is worth the money.

Haha Brad are you suggesting I was breathing hard??? but but but an ebike is like riding a dirt bike or a horse.....no physical exertion required! Let the ignorant be ignorant they dont know what they are missing. Those Rovers are solid bikes and a nice price point, glad you are enjoying it!

From: ElkNut1
07-Jan-20
Brad, great video, those Ebikes are very impressive in challenging hills & that rocky terrain. It helps a lot!

ElkNut/Paul

From: Jaquomo
07-Jan-20
Burt, I was in the business, breeding, training, packing, owned a 72 horse stable, owned 26 horses of my own at one time. I know full well what all is involved. They are absolutely not more challenging to ride than an ebike. On a made horse a fatass hunter only needs to sit in the saddle for half a day and he's further back into the wilderness than the BRO flat-brimmers, with a case of beer in the panniers and not even breaking a sweat. But you missed my point, that the ebike haters seem to give horses a free pass in the backcountry hating department.

BTW, I've never had to walk my ebike all night in elk camp when it colicked, never had to walk it out of the wilderness and drive 2 hours to a vet to have it sewn up, never had it kick me in the head or decide to go 150 miles back home while wearing hobbles. So there are definitely challenges, but for some reason the ebike haters are ok with riding a horse, but not pedaling. Maybe because some have been on drop camps or outfitted hunts, so that was ok??

From: smarba
07-Jan-20
I'm not an eBike hater. And although horses allow access, that ship has sailed centuries ago. Horses and pack in hunts are part of the picture and will never change, despite some areas horses causing substantial damage to trails. So moot point arguing against the use of horses.

eBikes are a NEW way of accessing areas. There WILL be an increased impact. And that will only continue to increase. It is unstoppable since National Forest and others have defined "a little" motor as being OK.

For the moment Jaq and others think it's great...because they can access areas easier than ever before. When 50 guys do the exact same thing and are all camped in Jaq's favorite back country spot perhaps it will be viewed differently.

From: Jaquomo
07-Jan-20
Right now there are 50,000 guys doing the BRO-Cam Hanes "backcountry athlete" craze, camped in my favorite spots, because technology had presented us with lighter, stronger, easier backpack hunting equipment, GPS, mapping apps, and social media, which have all made backcountry hunting easier than ever. I want to go where these guys are not - back in on on old logging roads and washed-out ATV trails where deadfall has made ATV travel impossible but I can lift a bike over or around. Vs. Going deep into the wilderness where bowhunting is essentially hand-to-hand combat.

Smarba, I understand your argument, but it sounds a bit self-serving, like "Stop everything right where I am right now! Let me keep my technology and use it to the max, my 4WD, compound bow, laser rangefinder, GPS, Kifaru super-light backpack hunting setup, but don't allow anything else!"

From: smarba
07-Jan-20
Technology has helped make things more comfortable (better clothes, wicking, etc.) and to some extent lighter. Definitely has made navigation and mapping substantially easier.

eBikes have changed the PHYSICAL abilities of people. No different than Xbow removed the need to physically draw and hold your bow. No different than anti-gravity boots that would allow someone to hike farther, easier. Or levitation backpacks so you can just stroll while your gear floats behind (yes I'm exaggerating, but it's along these lines).

You want to go where the BRO guys are not. At the moment. When they get eBikes they will be there too.

Not self-serving on my part. I may even utilize an eBike now that Pandora's box has been opened.

I'm not even arguing against eBikes, I'm just saying it's interesting that several are embracing them to the extent they are. In the short term I think it provides a great way to access "better" areas. In the long term I think more and more people will do the same thing to the point where "better" areas are simply that much farther than they are now. Just like ATVs, eBike use will be abused. The current power limitation will be increased. Nobody will ever check the wattage compliance.

I think eBikes are perfect for trails for which cnelk refers (dirt bike trails). But allowing "a little" motor in otherwise unmotorized areas is not much different than allowing "wheels" in a Wilderness. Allowing a new method to access for which it was not historically allowed. eBikes are an entirely new method to access areas that were historically limited due to physical limitations because it was too difficult (for most) to access with un-aided mountain bikes.

I want to get there, it's a little too hard for me to walk, just let me ride my mountain bike in the Wilderness...

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-20
If you accept the fact e-bikes are here to stay, then you might as well embrace them while they are still relatively new to most hunters. When most hunters have them there will be some new technology for us to complain about. At least that’s the way I see it.

Matt

From: lewis
07-Jan-20
Kinda funny if you want to start a heated debate on here just mention E-Bike in the title and get out the popcorn ?? Lewis

From: KHNC
08-Jan-20
Well, one thing is for sure, coming from the east , driving is the only way to get your ebike to elk country. Many more people fly out to elk hunt than drive, in my opinion. I will drive up to 25 hours one way myself. That is pushing it, but i will do it. Past that, i am flying, meaning no ebike comes with me. I dont see that many people paying 2-3k for ebikes to use for 10 days max on an elk hunt. There will be some, but i dont think it will be an epidemic.

From: Grey Ghost
08-Jan-20
I just ordered my 750W Mule from ebike John. I chose the Kuiu camo version with the largest battery. Should be here in about a week. WOOHOO!

FYI, the 750W Mule motor is a 1000W motor that is dialed down to 750. I'm not sure exactly what's involved, but you can have it dialed back up to 1000W, if you wish. That and the walk-assist feature sealed the deal for me.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
08-Jan-20
Matt. In your research did you find any that don't have walk-assist? I thought all the hunting style bikes had that.

I dunno, but not sure you'll ever find a need to dial it up to 1000 unless you want to use it for a road commuter bike. You're going to be thrilled with the performance of 750. I think I read that the Mule comes with tire liners, which I added to my Rambo. They are a good thing.

From: swede
08-Jan-20
My Mule came with tire liners but I needed to install them myself. It is not a big deal to do that, but I bought a plastic spoon so I would not risk accidently cutting the tube, and I am glad I have an air compressor.

From: Grey Ghost
08-Jan-20
Lou,

You are correct, most of the hunting e-bikes have the walk-assist. I've never even ridden an e-bike, so I don't have any reference for an opinion on 750 versus 1000W. I just like the idea of having the option to go either way.

The Bafang Ultra motor on the Mule seems unique over most hunting e-bikes that have the regular Bafang motor, in that it has a torque sensor. It automatically adjusts the amount of power based on how much pedal pressure you are using. The reviews I read said this feature made it more comfortable and safer to ride. We'll see.

Matt

From: NoWiser
08-Jan-20
Swede, go tubeless. It's not hard to do.

From: swede
08-Jan-20
Thanks NoWiser. I have not thought about that option. I will consider one when it is time to replace the ones I have. E-bikes are expensive. I went with the Bakcou Mule because they are highly rated and extremely well made. It does not hurt that they are designed by and for hunters. Mine appears to be bullet proof. Some options I have considered are the extra volume battery, or a spare. I would prefer that, but due to cost I went with the regular one. I can get up to 80 miles on hilly paved roads in mode 1 with the battery I have. I will get a 12 v/110v inverter so I can recharge in hunting camp. Also for now my son got us a bicycle trailer designed for carrying kids. Again it may not be quite as good as one from E-bike John, but he got it on Craig's List for $30. It is rated for 100#. It will handle the old logging roads we plan to hunt from.

From: Grey Ghost
08-Jan-20
How are you guys carrying your bows on your e-bikes? Strapping them to your backpack, or handle bar mounts? Are handle bar mounts even possible, or practical?

Matt

From: Jaquomo
08-Jan-20
I tried handlebar mounts for awhile and didn't like them. Too much up front for the rough rocky stuff where I hunt and I felt like the bow and quiver were bouncing around too much. Now I carry my bow on my pack and find it's much easier, better balance. Don't even know it's there.

NoWiser, I'm definitely going tubeless when these tires wear down. Great suggestion.

From: NoWiser
08-Jan-20
When I switched to tubeless on my fatbike I use the 3M 8067 flashing tape we use here at work. It's pretty incredible stuff. With that on the rims I used Orange Seal in the tires and it has worked perfectly. I've never gotten a flat, including trips to antelope country with all of the cactus where a normal tire wouldn't have made it a mile.

I'm seriously thinking about converting my fatbike to an ebike for hunting. My biggest holdup (aside from the money) is not knowing how much of a project the conversion is. I'd like to switch back to motorless in the summer to ride the local singletrack.

From: smarba
08-Jan-20
Regarding Tubeless - there's nothing incredibly magic about Tubeless. An actual Tubeless tire has tighter tolerance for sealing against the rim and is more air-proof rather than relying on the tube to hold the air.

Still I've used non-tubeless tires as tubeless many times and there's no risk. Just put any air-sealing tape on the inside of the rim just like you have to do with any tubeless tire (I've only used Stan's) and get a removable score valve stem (if your bike has a Schrader/standard car stem it is removable - if you have a Presta/racing bicycle style your core may or not be removable).

Remove the core, use air compressor to set the bead (goes way faster if you have the core out, plus easier to add sealant), fill with sealant like Stan's (I prefer to Orange, but there are also other brands), then replace the valve core.

Plenty of on-line instruction. The only difference with a non-tubeless tire is it sometimes uses more sealant to fully seal the tire sidewalls versus a tubeless tire is already fully sealed. But you don't have to wait until your current tires wear out before you make the switch to tubeless.

I've ridden tubeless on MTB for many years and way less flats compared to with a tube. If you do get a flat in the back country that you can't seal, you'll have to yank tire off and install a tube though.

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