Can we sue them based on infringement against the endangered species act due to the risk to the endangered Mexican wolf?
Can we sue them for overstepping the endangered species act in any way?
Can the Rocky Mountain elk foundation sue them for endangerment to elk herds?
Can cattlemen’s Association’s sue them for endangerment?
Is there anyway we with Hunting interests and a desire to see moose and elk populations thrive can sue them?
I think the term for stopping them before any damage is done would be an injunction.
The surrounding states and even the Colorado guides and outfitters and ranching agencies need to sue for future damages due to wolf infringement.
That will be the only way to at least delay it and possibly stop it. If it hits the ballot, it will pass. Too many voters think they are cuddly, lovable pets.
A few hundred million dollar lawsuit will at least get people's attention. Billboards with wolves killing pets unfortunately I don't think will get it stopped.
Don't tip your hand to GG he's only going to run to the Wolfies and tip em off!
So it’s pretty straightforward.... We need to prevent the feds from delisting wolves in CO.
So let’s talk PETA Into spending their money on campaigning against a delisting, and Pat can get DJ to talk POTUS into pretending to want to delist them, but never let it happen.
At least until the wolves take matters into their own paws and just Show Up.
Ugh...some people don't seem to understand. If the bill passes, the wolves still can't be reintroduced until the Feds delist them. Until then, the Feds control the fate of wolves in CO. If it passes, the ballot initiative expires in 2023. So, if the wolves stay listed for 3 more years, and the Feds don't initiate their own reintroduction program during that time, which they've shown no desire to do, then the ballot initiative goes away.
I say keep them listed, thereby using the wolf lovers tactics against them.
All of your energies are better spent politically, not legally.
Here in MT there are a handful of groups that sue to stop everything eco related. The friends of the wild swan, being one of them. I think really if a person went through and made lists of the the people on the membership lists of such groups it is the same 100 people in all the groups is just looks good to have 6 or 8 groups listed on the law suit.
They sue to stop forest service thinning units, logging units, trail development, Road improvements, and the do it on the basis of Environmental impact statements. Claiming that such and such cannot be allowed to happen because the impact statement from the USFS is incomplete and we do not know how it will impact the such and such turtle.
I would think that you could sue on the basis that there has not been a complete study on the impact of reintroduction of wolves. We could sue to protect some miniscule item that we think wolf reintroduction would hinder. I don't think I would use impact on elk and deer just because that is likely studied already, I would use impact on some high altitude plant that the elk and deer keep under control through browse. Therefore introduction of wolves would reduce populations of ungulates and thus the plant would take over and ruin the environment so that blue grouse could not reproduce.
bla blah blah, I am not well informed about things of the law I just keep reading this scenario in the news time after time.
You got any proof of that? Do share.
The only hope is for biologists to speak up and defend what they tried to manage for decades.
Yer on it like Blue Bonnet.
Get the sodium Pentathol.
5 gallon bucket, chair. Wash cloth, 100mph tape and a few bottles of water.
You’ll get your GG answer.
Thanks for your concern about my position on wolves. It hasn’t changed, ever. I recognize that wolves have and will continue to migrate to CO, compliments of our Federal government’s ill-conceived plans to force their reintroduction into neighboring states. Fortunately, the Feds have no plans to force re-intro into Colorado As long as that remains true, I’ll lobby for keeping the fate of CO wolves in the Feds hands, instead of leaving it up to ignorant urban CO voters.
They are being forced dropped. You pie in the hemp sky folks just wont believe it until your Labradoddle is being torn apart.
I enjoy shooting the wild dog either with bow or rifle. Took several already and season has not even got good yet.
Turkeys were early in 1 70’s. My father took one of the first birds with bow after a season opened. Birds did very well.
A old timer and good friend from WV worked for a big coal outfit. He worked not in mine but with land and aquisition. He caught the Lil Wolfies from US GVT dumping them on coal co land.
I will kill a few more before i head back to Pacific.
Here they are a private organization toying with the livelihoods of others and the well-being of other species to boot
It’s been proven time and time again that ballot box biology can’t be educated away. But if they are in a lawsuit they are going to have a hard time pushing the feds too hard and it may just go away before the introduction actually happens
God law dogs can get and injunction to stop anything unless its blatently frivolous.
Wolfies have tried or are trying force drop in more places than you bowhunters know.
Imagine what a pack would do in Iowa, kansas or nebraska in higher big game density areas. Like ip by Chadrin!! These folks will never stop with this crap. Hell they study groups in several big State Universities. Where big money commercial donors are laying out the$ for other agendas besides Wolves!
DjT just y did some epa regs by exec action in last couple days.
I am confident this issue will get Federal clarity by Early 2021
That would be interesting since they are still protected in Colorado.
And they want to start dropping wolves off in the middle of lynx habitat.
That would end this goat rodeo.
Keep the wolf but may limit tags.
- attack anything relating to paperwork, signatures, methods of gathering, validity, out of state interests - then have some outfitters sue for potential loss of income etc - then have some landowners sue for loss of income, conflicts, etc - then find experts that will contradict anything within their numbers/plans - stuff like the actual genetic wolf doesn’t really exist today so it would be like introducing an invasive species, etc - look for any possible impact on other threatened species the wolves could have an impact, etc
You could find stuff all day long to bring against them, it’s just going to take deep pockets along with time and effort from someone willing to carry the torch for years and at countless stages of appeals, etc.
Wolves eat mice.
The historic wolf that the Mexican wolf overlapped with to the north was similar in size and likely indistinguishable in the ares they overlapped.
Mexican wolves are german shepard sized or around 2/3 the size of the subspecies they used for introduction in WY, MT, ID.
So, now you do except that the Rocky Mountain Timber Wolf was a sub species. Wow your getting a hella education here.
So I would make this case after its voted in by the Hemper's on the Front Range and make the case.
"Gray wolves were never in CO Rockies, That sub species is gone and a Wolf is not a just Wolf ".
I think in federal appeals court 10th this case can be made and in this court a victory can be had. It will have to, of course run thru the states Superior courts but a stay could be granted until final adjudication in to the Supreme in maybe 2022-23.
I have never once said there are not subspecies of wolves. My argument was that there is only 2 species of wolves in North America. The Gray Wolf (Canis lupus) and Red Wolf (Canis rufus). Mexican, Rocky Mountain, eastern, plains, Canadian wolves are all subspecies of Gray Wolf (Canis lupus). And within those subspecies there is variation. So much so that you would not be able to tell a small Canadian individual wolf from a large Mexican wolf. There is size variation in gray wolf populations just as there are in humans. Is everyone in your family the same size? Same with wolves to a point. So this subspecies argument to me is just smoke and mirrors in regards to reintroduction into CO.
Many biologists think the subspecies protection is splitting hairs. However, when a species (not subspecies) population gets so low then isolated subspecies do become important due to genetic variation that is essential to all populations.
So the objective of the Endangered Species Act is to save the species. And in the case with Gray Wolves it was best to protect the isolated populations (subspecies) separate for management purposes and to preserve genetic variation.
Yes HH I did learn one thing from you and that was an article you posted about a large sheep kill. However, I have not learned one substantive fact regarding wolf subspecies. But I did learn very quickly that even when you don’t know what you are talking about you still keep talking and you never let facts or science get in your way. Lastly, 95% of the time you don’t back any of your statements up with proof, facts, or sources. I’m not sure if you understand the difference between opinion and fact.
Science...because it’s better than making #%^ up.
Im not litigating the case just making common sense argument that anyone can understand. No one is going stay the course with species diversification, genetic variation, which by the way is a natural occurrence. Extinction is a natural occurrence.
The need to present the case to the folks directly from folks who'll be impacted must clear, concise and at a level easy to grasp. Getting deep into weeds will not help keep large far north Gray Wolves out of the CO Rockies.
There was sound reason wolves were eliminated by a dominate species in the lower 48. We have done worse as a nation to the dominate native species of the lower 48.
It's just a dog.
Do you even see the contradiction in your statement. It’s s public vote and majority wins. Did you expect a vote and minority win? If they vote it in then apparently there are more “Wolfers” than not in CO lol.
“I will argue that those wolves are long extinct, (1930's last CO wolf was killed) that wolf gone.“. And you will be wrong. If you were to make that statement in a public meeting you would be laughed out of the room. The subspecies was extirpated from CO but the gray wolf (Canis lupus) in any form is not extinct. Please stop saying the gray wolf is extinct. You lose all credibility when you do.
Typical representation from teachers using public schools to teach their own agendas
Sounds like wolves are just larger coyotes and actually improve big game numbers....
Elk and deer numbers have increased where there are wolves and moose are only 1% of their diet. Hell, that will get half the hunters in this state to vote to haul them in!
Guess the elk and moose population crashes in the Greater Yellowstone Area when they dumped the wolves was due to Climate Change, ozone holes, or maybe it was Trump’s fault.
I will will relay what fdp or EOCP said.
“Life itself is terminal”
Half the the info i have provided is editorial but other is fact.
Most is expierence knowing and seeing how the Dog droppers did this with Yotes.
I know yhis ilk well Flat. Rabid bark biters who know more than any one.
Since when does a plurality of votes take the top seat. Didnt in 2016. Please dont get on yer soapbox on Roger Rules and State legislation body actions
Is this CO wolf reintroduction vote going to be decided by an electoral college? What the heck does a 2016 presidential vote have anything to do with a state referendum?
If you are using facts as you say then please back up your repeated claim that the feds are secretly dropping wolves, coyotes, or any other species anywhere in the U.S. Pleas show us some evidence of this claim from a credible source. Otherwise the claim is BS made up crap.
Just as I suspected it’s all made up BS. Black helicopters dropping endangered species with parachutes at night of course. Just admit that you just make stuff up to defend your arguments.
You just can rationalize the irrational.
And what the heck is an EP consulting firm?
That would be Web MD monthly but you can pick up your fav mag, lets say “The NYer” youll see similar
The deer baiting KS biologist, right.
I have a biologist and a bio senior scientist in my immediate family.
Had to listen to them cry when Trump won.
Im guessing your a Bio Consultant small cap firm and butt hurt that yer not making what you did under BO EPA exec orders.
The same Kind that love GVT $ and regulation.
The wolf is a politcal javelin to pierce the way of weatern life.
They are so far ahead of outdoorsmen, ranhers it aint funny.
Same leaf lickers who are attacking beefers out west. Cows are using up all the water. Hillarious.
Bio bark monkees make me smile.
Again do you have any proof of your claim that anyone is secretly “dropping” any endangered canine anywhere in the U.S.? Or is it just your fabricated conspiracy theory?
Consult your eye doctor, dude. Or use a cheap pair of readers. Your posts are painful to decipher.
With much looking youll find federal grants for wolf study, etc.
how do you think wolf puppies are getting into CO schools? Who would use kids to get a political foot up their agenda? I know who.
Private wolfers raise them, state U’s raise them. Study groups raise them. Do your own work smart guy.
You really think all those dogs go to zoos or die in cages?
Smell the Java. Thise wolves have and will continue to be dropped.
Sometimes the obvious needs no footnote.
GG When Bowsite limits bio diversity you’ll end up with same monkees talking and throwing chit. Now, they fling it guys they dislike. Once we are gone they’ll just fling it themselves. They cant help playing with stinky stuff.
By the way I speak English lol.
Do you even understand the illiterate crap you post? Seek help, dude. Not for me, or anyone else. Do it for yourself. Until then, you'll remain the guy that most Bowsiters will just roll their eyes at.
Colorado is doomed if they reintroduce these predators......................
Wolf Drop is nothing but a political tool of the left to execute a long term agenda.
I am sure some CO tesident will file suit after this vote in Nov.
It will stop any action plan until it works its way thru the CO Swamp and possibly to the 10th circuit, where it will have an uphill battle to be deemed legal.
Not my fight. I left CO in 88. But I will be in 201 soon if it all works out this year or next. Meat packer and caller. Hope i see those wolves in there.
Not me Teter , not my tag. Im there to call and hump horns meat out.
I take my ruck and gear. Not my rodeo.
You can hide yer Wolf lovin ways but your agenda is well known and i think it sides with the front range politics of the wolf.
If for no other reason than to spook some of the hiker crowds and keep them closer to their Subarus...
But given the choice, I would rather have neither of them here. I will continue to vote that way as long as I can.
Will be interesting to see what the predation study that the CPw is conducting turns out... Bet a lot of folks are going to be shocked how many big game animals are killed a year by the apex predators we already have.
A year or so ago, I recall an Idaho Dept of Fish and Game study in which they collared over 170 elk calves, then tracked their mortality over the course of 2 winters. They found that mountain lions were responsible for 3-4 times more calf kills than wolves.
Funny how there isn't as much disdain for mountain lions as there is for wolves.
I dunno, Matt......maybe because there isn't/wasn't a forced re-intro and there is actually a season to control the population.
Not much to add, other than the wolves ARE coming. Either by natural migration or forced re-intro. The former should prevail with a plan to manage their numbers once they reach a certain level. Unfortunately ballot-box biology along with the $$ that drives it will win, I'm afraid.
I'm not so sure the re-intro ballot initiative will pass. Our local CBS affiliate news station conducted a poll recently. The last results I saw had over 23K votes. 80% of the votes said NO to the reintroduction plan. Obviously that's not a huge sample size, but it is encouraging.
I am not supporting or slamming anything here with the following, I am merely presenting my observations: Mt lions run from dogs, and wolves run to them. Cats don't generally hunt in packs unless its a mother teaching her young to hunt, then the kittens rarely participate anyway, they just observe... And cats don't kill wantonly and leave behind basically uneaten carcasses. Maybe that's why. Cats are secretive, wolves seem empowered in numbers and boldly take out sheep herds, young cattle, and pets from yards. Griz also are way more likely to remain obscure. I have no problem personally with either cats or griz in the wild, and for that mater, wolves either if they are hunted actively, retain the fear of man and his beasts, and are allowed to be shot like coyotes. Ie, managed whether they are listed or de-listed. So for the record, I am not a 'wolfie', not a promoter of forced intro., and am a supporter of hunting them (and cats and griz too), when and wherever they can be without them going 'extinct' again... hahaha. ;^) Problem ones, those acclimated to killing domestic animals should be taken out immediately. TK
Even with unlimited lion hunting and bounties, there will still be plenty...
I bet 90% of you don't know how deep this wolf thing is in the USA. Would you be surprised if the World Wolfers are dumping big cash into "wolves at our Door" program?? That's code for getting wolves in lower 48 in all their historic ranges.
You got self proclaimed Bio Weenie here that prolly is part of it. One only needs to go to one of a handful of sites to figure the deal out and follow the liberal left finger prints into the politics of the wolf in the west.
Here are the big undisclosed donor list to the International Wolfies here in . . . . . . . Yes Minn.
-------------- $10,000 plus Estate of Kathleen F. Corbett Nancy Gibson and Ron Sternal Google Inc. The Dorothy D. and Joseph A. Moller Foundation Estate of John H. Tyler John Virr
Oh and you guessed it, Its a 501 c3 with generous GVT $ flowing in. Check this. the employees all qualify for 403b investment criteria and pensions.
If you think some petition is going stop the wolf getting into CO yer kidding yerself. Just dig thru this statement from the Wolfers in Minn and things will become clear.
I really lover the amount of cash they have poured to schools all over USA with there interactive online programs. So, you the public your tax dollars paying for this BS and you don't even know it. Yes, they have free little hour pet the dead wolf stuff but the other stuff is Your school district paying $ for it.
So when you hear guys like Flat- Hat flipping out Genetic diversity, and Bio jangle you know he's prolly doing Webinar's with the wolfies and either a Booster and or Donor.
They don't hide what they want and they want it everywhere a wolf once walked even 10,000yrs ago (everywhere) in North America.
Vision The International Wolf Center envisions a world in which populations of wolves thrive well distributed in many parts of their native range. A global system of designated wildlands supports abundant habitat and prey for wolves and other large carnivores. The Center provides useful scientific information and learning opportunities to diverse individuals and groups and supports well-informed dialogue about management of wolfhuman conflict. As a result, humans adopt an attitude of respect toward wolves. As informed participants, humans create policy and act in support of ecological sustainability, which includes the survival of wolf populations. In day-to-day life, humans accept coexistence with wolves" IWC
Be sure to read the Financial statement things become more clear. You CO residents better get on the stick or your "The Wolves at our Door" program be looking up yer ol address mighty pronto.
There you go, thanks.
Read my link. Wolves have eaten herds to the bone in BC and NW MT.
Yer a wolfer theres no doubt.
beware CO resident hunters you got Matt Teter Wolf Booster in yer midsts. K
RT/Treeline- Now, answer my question. How do you know there are plenty of cats...so much so that they don't need quotas or seasons?
HH- you are so predictable. When someone calls you out and you can't back it up you just deflect, spin, and start to name calling...every dang time. You're just mob mentality and a follower. I do not have stake in this fight regarding wolves being reintroduced in CO. I personally think doing biology at the ballot box is a bad idea. It should be left up to biologists and other stakeholders who will be financially affected. However, this is a public DISCUSSION forum. If fellow bowhunters are going to throw unfounded statements out there then they should not be surprised when others call them out. Facts matter.
WapitiBob had a good point . There are wolves currently in states where we hunt...that I hunt. The elk/moose/deer populations are still good. The data is all out there for those who take the time to look (as he stated). But I realize that it doesn't fit everyone's narrative.
To the OP. Yes, I think there are ways to file lawsuits to at least temporarily stop the reintroduction. But impacts to the mexican subspecies has no merit IMO based on reasons previously stated. It likely would be better to focus on the perceived impacts to private landowners and ranchers. However, that tactic has been tried many times before and ultimately it didn't work. If they reintroduce wolves in CO and it is still on the ESA (fed control) then I would suggest getting a lawyer to dive deep into the NEPA/Environmental Impact Statement. A smart lawyer can likely find something in there to file a lawsuit. It worked for the lesser prairie-chicken. But the Gray Wolf is proposed to be delisted. Thereafter, it is a state issue. Maybe Kansas cattleman's association can sue CO and claim damages because they will migrate and kill KS livestock? Good luck with the lawsuit but I think its a loosing battle.
Are you going to answer the question? How do you know there are plenty of cats...so much so that they don't need quotas or seasons? I gave you my answer and backed it up.
I'm sure HH will be along shortly to tell us how he's chased cats down and killed them with his bare hands. LOL.
The CPWs guess is 3000 on the low end and more than double that on the high end. They are upfront about not really being able to pin it down very close.
Bottom line is that the deer numbers are way down in areas.
I've been involved in two of those "official" counts for Bighorn sheep in Colorado. Both occurred in mid-summer. I had scouted the unit hard in preparation for my hunt, and I felt I knew where the majority of the sheep were. On both counts, we had crappy overcast weather, which made for horrible glassing conditions. We counted only a fraction of the sheep that I knew were in the area. When I asked the CPW officer we accompanied how they could possibly extrapolate any accurate information from our count, she said "good question". I've never put much stock in those population guesstimates ever since.
FYI- Most wildlife and big game populations use some kind of sample size method for estimating populations. 99% of all populations are estimates with 95% confidence intervals (statistically significant). Basically it is a very good educated guess that has a 95% probability of being correct.
Back when predator control was considered politically correct and the government and livestock interests paid guys to kill lions, bears, coyotes, wolves, etc year round with poison, dogs, guns, etc - they never ran out of predators.
We did have lots of deer though...
Does anyone have a link to the actual wording in the initiative? Sorry, I can't search for it at the moment.
The largest Wolf in lower 48 was a Prarie Wolf. Many many accounts of their size in journals , notes and writings before 1840s.
Not a pack animal per say. Roosevelt recalls seeing some of the last of them in 1870’s. Buff calf killers and scavangers.
Sub species prolly close to an Artic. Im sure the Minn Wolf Puppy Mill has mixed Artic with giant Grays as they have both and are prolly chomping to drop them in their original home ranges of Wy, ND, SD, NE.
There is hun bub about that Wolf.Org wants to drop them in the Black Hills just as elk numbers are getting higher and they are killing them off for habitat management.
Had a discussion with two black hill folks , Hot Springs and Rapid. Both confirmed the Bark biters are on the move to put these Super Dogs back in.
My assuption upon this discussions is they will pen them on the Res in NW Hills and wait. But, you know accidents happen and dogs get free!
Sourh Dakota, you best get your duks in a row as you are next.
No stopping this now im afraid.
Go to Wolf.org
Look at donors, grants, research, reeducation and financials. Once you see how this org is layed out, funded and tax shielded it is easy to see the 5 W’s of outfits like Move On .org
This Orgs profile is nearly identical most far left liberal politcal outfits. Well funded, well represented legally and tied to education grants, USFWS study grants and on and on.
You hunters are funding this. Call your House Rep and demand accountability and transparency!
Font take my word for it do your own study. I hunt nationwide grom Hawaii to ME and do about 200 dayS i. The bush. One thing about working for Uncle Sam for 25yrs i know a chit ton of guys just like myself in about every state. We all hunt, we know GVT BS and agree this Wolf Crap is big biz and they have $ and political backing.
A major major funder to the Wolfies. Nat Geo prolly number one!
They have great funding ideas' see link.
More like Rules for Radicals Alinksi's book than a Environment Bark Biter save the pooch site. Check these nut jobs out.
These are the folks running around Minn trying to stop the Wolf hunt up there.
They be dropping Teradactyls in Red districts of Penn
Let em go in those old coal mines. Maybe they eat wolves?
Here are some real Radical folks, wolves before humans. You'll notice about 80% of these folks are women. A nasty crew.
The Riman Catholic church in 999 tried to tame us by moving a southern german prince into our blood. Which happened.
My line retained the Kirally. My gg grandfather was married to a Kirally.
My pateenal grandmother was 1/4 eastern native American.
Get Trump out. They whats gonna happen after Nov win.
Habitat for Wildlife's Link
What's better? Wolves feeding on elk while their still alive or a quick harvest.
Sure the wolves got plenty of gut piles! Heard the y killed a bunch off those piles everytime.