Explanation of P&Y membership changes
General Topic
I wanted to start a new thread and attempt to better explain the recently approved changes.
#1. We lowered the number of years it takes to become a voting or REGULAR MEMBER from 10 years to 5 years. Why? We are missing out on a lot of very experienced and possibly important members who didn't think about joining until later in life or just never thought about it. If we are going to ask those who are qualified and able to help fight the fight, we need to make it easier for you to feel like you have a voice. Why do I have to wait 5 years to begin with? From the beginning we wanted and expected our voting members to be well rounded, well traveled experienced bowhunters. You have to safeguard from having 5,000 unknown members join tomorrow and change the direction of the club. In our first 20 years of existence, it took about 5 years to make it to Regular if you had the species requirements.
#2, To qualify to move up you must have taken 3 different species with your bow irrespective of entry in the record book. You can now also qualify if you have 3 of any animals in the book, they can all be the same species. Why? We have a number of hunters who have many whitetails in the book but aren't able to take the time off to hunt other species. This goes against our original theory of needing well traveled hunters but we decided it was unfair to exclude these members from advancement.
#3 What happens with my lifetime General Membership? Give us a few more months on this one. We do intend to figure out a way to give you credit for your investment. Believe it or not, this is not as easy to accomplish as you would think. Everyone has a suggestion and you can spend hours debating it. The Board passed it on to the Membership Committee to let them figure it out. This will be addressed at our Board meeting in Virginia the last week in March.
#4 If I'm just a peon member, I'm not allowed to attend the membership meetings. This is not entirely true. At our conventions we have 3 membership meetings. One for Regular/Senior members, one for General Members and a "Town Hall Meeting" for all members. One of the perks of sticking with the Club and stepping up to be a voting (Regular) member is being able to influence the direction of the Club. If you are not willing to wait 5 years and show some Club involvement as well as actual hunting experience, then why would you think you are qualified to make decisions that effects every bowhunter in North America?
#5 Zack has to wait 22 years to become a Senior member. That was a result of our old rules. If you have been a Regular member for 8 years and have taken 5 different species with at least 3 in the book, you can advance to Senior member. Senior members are treated no differently than Regular members. It is more of a status symbol that shows you have been a member a long time and you have hunted a lot of animals. Years ago, we limited the number of Regular members to 100, just like B&C. We created the Sr member level to move people out of Regular membership to make room for more voting members. Our membership structure has been an issue since early on. We are trying to make it as fair and simple as we can while still maintaining the integrity of the organization.
#6 We lowered the Regular/Senior member annual dues to $100. Some of our Seniors are struggling to pay the annual dues. This provides some relief. It costs money to keep the doors open. We wanted to help those who were struggling to afford it whether they are older or younger members. We hope by lowering the dues, we can encourage more to move up to Regular membership to make up for the loss of income that will result in the lower amount coming in per member.
#7 What was the reason for people who had the qualifications but were not advancing? Our member survey showed many reasons. Too expensive. I shoot multiple whitetails every year but can't hunt other species. I have 5 species but none in the book. I can't make it to a convention unless it is closer to home. I just never bothered to fill out the paper work.
I realize this is way long but you all had questions and maybe this clears things up a little. I'll repeat that we are going to address how to deal with lifetime general members moving up and what to do about the dues they have already paid in. Please be patient on that one. We'll figure out a fair way to do it that. Jim
What about the guy who just wants to bowhunt and eat venison? It does not mean he is not "serious" about bowhunting. Is there a place in this club for him?
I think there is place in our club for every bowhunter.
Jim thanks for addressing some of the concerns. Looking forward to speaking with you at the NYB banquet.
PECO...Did you read the post above yours? You can become an Associate Member at any time. All you have to do is join. Join the club and after 5 years if you’ve killed three whitetails with a bow in your life that make book and you can advance to become a “Regular” Member if you wish. If you want to become a Senior member, you’re gonna have to kill a few more species (5) and wait 8 years. Looks to me like there’s a place for anyone and everyone in P&Y. Now, just don’t pay for an Associate Life Membership if you want what you paid to go towards a “Regular” Life Membership, but it even looks like they’re working on that! ;). Great post Jim...
PECO:
Yes! Many in the Club are just as you describe. Simply become a general member.
Excellent job Jim! P&Y moved ahead a lot under your several terms of leadership. Thanks for giving the club your time and energy while still hunting a whole bunch! Kurt
Nice explanation, thanks.
I realize that not every bowhunter is driven to be politically involved, whether it be in a local, state or national organizations. You may not be able to get involved in activities that effect seasons and legislation. You are free to do that. Supporting P&Y at any level, which can include simple cash involvement in the way of dues or entry fees does make a difference. We are under attack from all sides and if we expect to be hunting 20 years from now, we need to get involved. For those not able to go toe to toe with representatives and commissioners, realize that providing financial support to those who do is more important today than it has ever been. The other side has unlimited funds. All we have is truth and science and a small number of hunters willing to get involved. We could sure use a lot more money to fight the fight. If you don't support P&Y, support your state organization. If you don't support either then you deserve what is coming. We need numbers and we need money if we expect to keep doing what we love.
So do I need 3 animals in the book to be a voting member? I'm not clear on this.
I just submitted my annual application. If you turn me down you can keep the $40 as a donation.
PECO, as I understand it, you would need either three different species (whether they qualify or not), or three qualifying animals of the same species. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken.
Living in CO, you shouldn't have any trouble getting three species if you really want to (assuming you haven't).
I have not much of a desire to hunt a bunch of different species as I really only want to hunt mature whitetail but if I have 3 that qualify I can be a voting member after 5 years correct? I have more than a few that will quailfy I just never entered any. I would like to contribute and become a member but I will not enter any animals so I will just be a non-voting member correct? Shawn
I believe it means you can have three members of any species that are covered by the records program....Thus for example if you've taken 3 whitetails with you bow, none of which actually qualify for the P&Y record book, you would still be eligible to become a Regular Member.
I'm sorry that it isn't clear. You need to have taken either 3 different species of big game animals, even if none of them make the book or you have 3 animals entered in the book, all can be the same species. Either one of these requirements show the experience that is needed to be "qualified" for lack of a better word to make decisions on a national level.
So if all you hunt is whitetails, and you have 3 that are entered in the book, once you have been a member for 5 years, you can apply for Regular membership. I understand that this still requires a member to jump through some hoops to advance, which is not what people want to hear today, but how else do you ensure that we don't end up with a bunch of closeted anti hunters making decisions for all of us?
We have one member who has 22 whitetails entered in the book but has no other species. Our old rules wouldn't allow that person to advance. Our new rules do.
I've been offline for a while but I'll monitor this post over the next week or so and respond to any questions.
"PECO...Did you read the post above yours?"
Yeah, it is right in the first paragraph. ;-)
Thanks for the explanation Jim. Some paragraph breaks would make it much easier to read though.
But unfortunately as this thread points out there is still confusion of membership levels. Even after you took the time to give a detailed description of each. Things that people don’t understand are just easier to forgo than try to figure it all out. Just my opinion.
I personally am happy to be a member, and have no intention to advance, so I guess My opinion is pretty low overall ;)
—Jim
P&Y is the last relevant organization left to give legislators an intelligent pro bow hunting voice. Every bow hunter should support P&Y whether they have animals entered or not. There is no other national voice.
Jim, You are right about the paragraph breaks. I hit enter after a paragraph but on here you need to hit enter twice. I forgot to do that.
Shawn (Scooby doo)...you are correct. Either three of any recognized NA 29 species or 3 of anything that makes book. eg. 3 book whitetails 125” or larger, 5 years as an associate and you are eligible to be a voting member.
Jim, Thanks for the detailed explanation.
Incidentally, you can hit the edit button on your original post and go back and put the paragraph breaks in your post now.
Excellent clarifications, Jim!
Thank you for all the hard work for bowhunting and all North American bowhunters!
Somewhere I read that there has been a loss of 11% of the voting members. Is there a mechanism where previous Reg's/Srs could be allowed back to voting status if they have maintained their membership through either general of life memberships?
In other words, do you have to qualify twice if you have stayed an active member?
This is a very good move for the Pope and Young Club!!
So, I've taken black bear, whitetail, and free range feral hog with archery tackle. No P&Y class animals. Does that qualify or are we looking at native big game species? Also in my State (Virginia) Eastern Wild Turkey are considered "big game", would my turkey kill qualify?
Maybe I'm wrong, but there are two voting "levels" ?
One allows you to vote for office bearers.
The next allows you to vote on resolutions as well.
Fuzzy,
Read Charlies post. Must be 3 animals IN the records program. Basically any animal in the NA 29.
The changes make it very achievable for pretty much everyone. Looking forward to what the committee proposes for the life membership upgrades,.
"What about the guy who just wants to bowhunt and eat venison? ....... Is there a place in this club for him?"
If you like to bowhunt and eat venison, then why wouldn't you support an org that protects and advances your right/privilege or ability to do just that.
Nothing against the P&Y Club, but it is just not for me. You can be a VERY avid bowhunter without ever killing 3 of the NA 29 or 3 P&Y whitetails. I will stick to my State Bowhunting Org...………………………….
It is permissible to be a member of more than 1 organization, and if I read the OP correctly you can be an Associate member without ever killing 3 of the NA 29 or 3 P&Y whitetails.
Sure you can be a member of more than one organization. I belong to 3 state bowhunting orgs.
Yes you can be a associate member without killing any animals.
The way I read it when applying yesterday was that I have to be an associate member to start. I’ve killed enough species to qualify for the three minimum. But, I don’t have the time in to need a sponsor for a regular membership. Am I correct?
That last part is assumption. And, I apologize if I muddied the waters. Just wanting to know if I figured it right.
Yes, you need to be an “Associate” for 5 years WV.
Stringwalker,
It is possible for voting members who dropped out for a few years or moved back General membership for financial reasons can move back to voting member. Contact the office to get in touch with the Membership Chair if you or someone you know is in this situation.
Fuzzy, We currently don't accept wild hogs or turkeys as a qualifying animal. We are discussing changing that and possibly accepting javelina and turkeys. Feral hogs hasn't been part of the discussion but I'll bring it up. Like you said, they are considered big game animals in many states.
Ambush, A voting member votes for the Board and any by-laws changes. 12 of the 13 Board members come from within the Regular or Senior member ranks. The 2nd VP is a General member and is elected by the General members.
FYI, the species we accept into our records and consider North American big game is listed in our by-laws. In order to add or remove any species it would have to pass with 2/3 majority Board vote and then be approved by a majority of our voting members. Any significant changes from the Club has to be approved by our members or it does't happen. That is the way it should be.
Thanks for the advice on how to edit a post. I had no idea you could do that.
JSW, just to clarify: I've been an associate member for over ten years and as an associate member I receive ballots to vote for office positions.(?) I sign in and read the platforms on-line. Or am I mistaken?
Get them feral hogs on the docket! I've got numerous P&Y and a couple of booners. Although, I have no idea what the criteria might be. Skull, cutters... :)
Turkeys??? You must be kidding?
Many of folks really don't understand the reason about having to have taken 3 of any of the North American 29 which don't have to meet the clubs minimums scores, they could even be a white tail doe, a mule deer doe and a cow elk or have 3 of the same species entered in the clubs books to become a regular member.. The reason for this is it shows that you are now opposed to hunting . This is the way of keeping non-hunters out of the club. It's not to show that you are a great hunter. I know that a few I've chatted with believe that's the reason. The reason that you must meet these requirement is to simply keep pure "hunters" involved in making decisions. Ed
Teeton,
A person may be very serious about archery hunting. Say someone has taken well north of 150 whitetails by bow, a dozen that would make the minimum. Plenty of turkey as well as coyotes and bobcats. Throw in a few bear.
Unless they enter their deer in the books, they would not qualify for a certain status. They may not want to enter them.
I will accept that because you guys convinced me you are committed to fair chase and protecting the hunting heritage in general. (Being honest, I support our firearm brethren even though I no longer participate.)
Maybe down the road this can be looked at again with a little more flexibility on defining serious hunter? Maybe a suggestion is to have a P&Y certified measurer file an affidavit that 3 deer will qualify without having to enter them? I am 61 and so really don't care that I will never get to vote. But others probably do. Thanks.
If joining compromises your values they will gladly accept a donation check with no membership application. Helps the sport that way and the rest of the drama some cite is averted.
Ambush, no matter how many years you have been an associate member (or even Lifetime), the only office position you have ever been solicited to vote for is 2nd Vice President. You are not permitted to vote for any of the other officers. That has been the case and it sounds like it remains that way.
Grant,
Strength in numbers is a solid argument to have as many join as possible. Maybe a win/win can be had where the organization attracts only serious hunters in a way that does not ask them to compromise anything? But, I joined and accept as is, or rather I applied. If accepted I am going to upgrade to the four year immediately if allowed.
Ok, thanks Marvin. I guess I’m getting to that age where I can remember fifty years ago better than what I had for breakfast this morning.
Hmmm? Did I even have breakfast this morning??
JSW, Glad to hear you might be open to considering harvest of turkeys, feral hogs, etc. in qualifying for Regular Membership. In my case, I would not currently qualify. However, I have extensive experience that **should** give me valuable insight to issues relating to bowhunting: I've taken an elk with a bow, I've got one whitetail in the P&Y book, and have taken over 40 other whitetails with a bow. I have taken well over 100 feral hogs with a bow, plus a dozen or so turkeys. I am a Hunter Ed and IBEP Bowhunter Ed instructor, former president of my state bowhunting organization, and as both a volunteer and professional archery instructor have taught hundreds of folks to shoot bows. Professionally I work for a prominent conservation NGO in TX, the Texas Wildlife Association. I've been a P&Y member for 9 years, and helped with the convention held in Dallas in 2013. Not trying to blow my horn, just providing an example of a highly experienced outdoorsman that but for some bad luck on a pronghorn hunt, would not currently qualify for Regular membership because I haven't taken a 3rd qualifying big game species yet. So essentially that lack of a third species negates the remainder of my background. I feel sure many others could tell a similar story. I understand guidelines/rules must be made, but perhaps some other factors could be incorporated that achieve the goal of a Regular member being a serious bowhunter.
Thanks for the clarification Jim.
Personally, I'd be a life member, but I've always had plans of becoming a regular member eventually and it didn't make sense. I'm glad the Club is addressing this.
I understand that some bowhunters have no desire to enter qualifying animals into the record book. As soon as I get a little free time, I'm going to start another thread explaining why we need those statistics. Our records have been used and are still being used for important purposes. I'll give past and present examples to help you understand why we need those statistics. Stay tuned.
I enter my qualifying animals so hundreds of years down the road there will be some record I was indeed alive here on earth and loved to shoot arrows at NA animals. My version of 23 and me:)
"Maybe down the road this can be looked at again with a little more flexibility on defining serious hunter? Maybe a suggestion is to have a P&Y certified measurer file an affidavit that 3 deer will qualify without having to enter them?"
Or maybe if you want to ascend in the club's membership ranks you get more fully aligned with the organization's values and objectives? I don't really understand the perspective of being upset by not being accepted as "all in" by a private club when you are very clearly not "all in".
I am not one for entering animals in record books either, but that hasn't kept me from being an associate member to support all the other things "we" do.
Matt,
Are you looking for argument? I said I accept it as is. Christ, it's a free country. We are allowed to have different opinions. If you are not OK with that, move to another country.
Sorry, it just gets old people not being able to accept other ideas. It was just a thought, fuel to ponder. Nothing else!
JSW thank you for the clarification. I have perceived it as a secret handshake club and a riddle to try and figure out how to be on the inside. I understand that some older membership may not be as accepting of the changes, which speaks to exclusive as opposed to inclusive, but is a must in moving the club forward imo. Thank you for breaking it down to better understand the mindset of the club.
JSW thank you for your concise and respectful answer.
moutainman, thank you for your reply. I went back and read Charles' post. I am not versed in trophy hunting details and don't know what "the North American 29" is or even where to find that information.
"Maybe down the road this can be looked at again with a little more flexibility on defining serious hunter."
I like this, and believe redefining a serious hunter may greatly increase your membership.
TMac: There is value to the opinions of members of the Club for the last 25, 35 and 45 years.
Think of our immigration policy where folks play by the rules, wait in line and do the things required for membership only to see people jump the line. Where’s the balance?
The Club officers are balancing the history of Club membership with a desire to grow voting membership. Balance is the key word and they are doing their best.
JSW,
Your style is commendable. I just upgraded via phone call to a four year membership. At my age I won't have to worry about renewing for a long time!
I will probably always remain a regular member and I am fine with that. Have fun at your convention and continue to fight the good fight.
I’m not anti P&Y club. Been an avid Bowhunter since 1977. Have nine or so NOAM species on the wall and few more than that from Africa. Never been a P&Y member. Back in the day, I looked at joining but it seemed mostly a take of my money and a few elite would be the decision makers. And I would have no input. Now there are rule changes to the membership, and it seems there is a lot of explanation on how the rules have changed, what it means etc. As a non member now and for the foreseeable future, it seems to me that significant simplification of membership levels might be helpful. Just an opinion, take it or tell me to GTH.
Dale06:
Come on board......we need bow hunters just like you!
I am pro P and Y. My discussion here is not anti P and Y. Some argue that this is not the place to discuss club matters. This site is a very popular bow hunting site. One that even club officers navigate and visit. It reaches more bow hunters than a P and Y survey could arguably. I think it is a good place to discuss. Balance. I often hear that P and Y wants more members. Does it really? How many does it currently have? I think i saw 10k but do not know for sure. It is a fraction of the number of bow hunters in the nation and world wide no doubt. Could it double in size tomorrow? 20k? Could it go to 100k? It would still be a fraction of the number of people participating in the act of bow hunting if so. The people that are members are passionate and do care about the future of the activity.
Does it really want to grow? How could it? Perhaps changing the common perception of the club is a start towards growth. The two things perceived that I notice are that it is a record keeping club only and that it is elitist. If the club wants growth it may be smart to work on these two perceptions.
One way would be to change the membership structure so that it is not perceived as elitist. Inform all members of goings on. Include everyone when dishing out information on everything. If protection is a concern, have all members be able to vote after 5 years. This may help the concern for balance.
Currently the cost for lifetime memberships and advancement is an issue. Supposedly being discussed which is good. This can be easily fixed? It is a notable problem for some considering advancement. Does P and Y really want growth? if so, changing the perception of a record only organization should be done. Perhaps concentrate on the conservation side of things during the off year of awarding and recognizing records.
It is obvious that the current board is listening to the public and trying to make changes for the better. I believe they are doing a good job.
Just thoughts of this member but shared by others also.
I think loesshillsaecher summed up my feelings/thoughts pretty much to a T. He is just much more eloquent than me.
—Jim
Honestly I think the image problem P&Y has is separate conversation
If I ever attended a convention, I hope there is a room where the only business conducted is that guys like me get to sit back in a comfortable chair with an adult beverage and cigar and listen in great detail to stories of hunts I will never go on. Other than that there are wiser people with a lot more time dedicated to the organization to steer things.
Do they have a room like that? If so, is it open to all or just those with the special handshake;-) Seriously though, listening to someone and hearing the excitement in their voice and their animation is much better than reading about it, at least to me. So, that's my suggestion!
ahhhhh, yeah. The Bowsite meet and greet! :)
Frank, there is such a room. Just don’t get put in the room underneath it! :-)
I think I am missing a story?
I hope the P&Y can grow, but with so many quitting bow and arrow hunting for the scoped crossbow, I see some major head winds, ..unless???
531 will live on for eternity!! Well, until the next convention and a new room number takes its place!
Fuzzy, the NA 29 description can be found right next to the 23 arrows you didn't bring to Kodiak last fall!! ;)
Never happen in my lifetime Jimmy.
Habitat, What you ask for has been my experience at every convention. All you have to do is find a group of bowhunters sitting in one place. You can find it at the Bowsite meet and greet or in any one of the suites, with the door open, after the festivities each evening. Sometimes it gets a little rowdy but you won't feel left out. I'm telling you, that is exactly what's special about P&Y. Everyone is the same there. Everyone is a bowhunter. It's hard to explain until you've experienced it.
Offer is still open for the KBA membership/Convention too Frank...bring it
I hope not, but the P&Y has a rich history of making major changes in the name of growth potential. We have been there before, never say never!
DEMO, that was 25 arrows ;)
DEMO it just occurred to me that if I'd only brought a dozen more arrows on that trip I coulda maybe joined P&Y! lol
