Tight Spot Quivers
Will Bowtech recover?
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
BowJangles 02-Mar-20
APauls 02-Mar-20
WapitiBob 02-Mar-20
JTreeman 02-Mar-20
Ucsdryder 02-Mar-20
WV Mountaineer 02-Mar-20
WapitiBob 02-Mar-20
Ermine 02-Mar-20
WapitiBob 02-Mar-20
WapitiBob 02-Mar-20
wyobullshooter 02-Mar-20
wyobullshooter 02-Mar-20
Trophyhill 02-Mar-20
jingalls 02-Mar-20
Pig Doc 02-Mar-20
jingalls 02-Mar-20
Pig Doc 02-Mar-20
jingalls 02-Mar-20
Teeton 02-Mar-20
Matt 02-Mar-20
HDE 02-Mar-20
jingalls 02-Mar-20
WapitiBob 02-Mar-20
Thornton 03-Mar-20
Ambush 03-Mar-20
Matte 03-Mar-20
12yards 03-Mar-20
rodb 03-Mar-20
ELKMAN 03-Mar-20
Jaquomo 03-Mar-20
BTM 03-Mar-20
Trial153 03-Mar-20
HDE 03-Mar-20
Jaquomo 03-Mar-20
Huntcell 03-Mar-20
Jaquomo 03-Mar-20
HDE 03-Mar-20
bowbender77 03-Mar-20
'Ike' (Phone) 03-Mar-20
skull 03-Mar-20
Buffalo1 03-Mar-20
Trophyhill 04-Mar-20
ELKMAN 04-Mar-20
PutcountyBowhunter 04-Mar-20
splitlimb13 04-Mar-20
SaddleReaper 04-Mar-20
DanaC 04-Mar-20
Pig Doc 04-Mar-20
Grey Ghost 04-Mar-20
PECO 04-Mar-20
splitlimb13 04-Mar-20
Shawn 04-Mar-20
Pig Doc 04-Mar-20
HDE 04-Mar-20
SaddleReaper 04-Mar-20
Redheadtwo 04-Mar-20
ground hunter 04-Mar-20
RD in WI 04-Mar-20
JL 04-Mar-20
Bowfreak 05-Mar-20
bigswivle 05-Mar-20
Bowfreak 05-Mar-20
SaddleReaper 05-Mar-20
PECO 05-Mar-20
wkochevar 05-Mar-20
Missouribreaks 05-Mar-20
KHNC 06-Mar-20
carcus 07-Mar-20
Missouribreaks 07-Mar-20
Boreal 07-Mar-20
Missouribreaks 07-Mar-20
Bowfreak 07-Mar-20
Pig Doc 07-Mar-20
Bowfreak 07-Mar-20
From: BowJangles
02-Mar-20
Mathews wins the patent infringement suit against Bowtech. Can they recover?

Hard not to laugh at them with a slogan like "Refuse to Follow" after they get slammed for ripping off a competitors designs. Ouch.

From: APauls
02-Mar-20
Not sure what it has done to them corporately, but will the average consumer care?...highly doubt it. They just want a good bow.

From: WapitiBob
02-Mar-20
They already settled, consumer won’t see any difference.

From: JTreeman
02-Mar-20
I would say APauls is spot on. Most consumers won’t ever even know. Unless there is a financial penalty they can’t recover from I see it being a moot point. Hell I consider myself up on most archery happenings and I don’t even know what it’s about, so it obviously would not effect my decision.

—Jim

From: Ucsdryder
02-Mar-20
What part did they copy?

02-Mar-20
^^^^This^^^^^

What exactly did Bowtech supposedly copy too close?

From: WapitiBob
02-Mar-20
Multiple claims, but I believe the basis deals with the yoke ends moving when drawing the bow which infringes on the AVS patent claims.

From: Ermine
02-Mar-20
These things happen all the time with companies. This was filed like 6 years ago. People infringing on patents and holders having to defend patents. I think a lot of archery companies copy each other quite often

From: WapitiBob
02-Mar-20
I believe these suits were filed in 2017 and 2018, the 6 year old suit was tossed out and dealt with the flex riser or whatever they called it and a guy from down south somewhere.

From: WapitiBob
02-Mar-20
The court posting today was the culmination of talks and the resulting settlement between the two parties; admission of infringement, terms for back royalties if any, and royalties going forward if there was any licensing agreement.

02-Mar-20
What Apauls said. I’ve been shooting BowTech since around 2003-2004. I shoot them because for me, I haven’t found anything better. As far as them “infringing” on Mathews? I couldn’t care less.

02-Mar-20
I ordered one last week. I hope I receive it still. Maybe it will say 'Matthews' on it?

;-)

Waiting for Elkman. Maybe he is shooting for Matthews now?

02-Mar-20
^^^^Habitat, that’s too funny! Good one!!

From: Trophyhill
02-Mar-20
Ya I'm sure he's renegotiating his contract renewel for "Pro Staff Member" with them right about now ;)

From: jingalls
02-Mar-20
Maybe BT should adopt the motto,”Catch us if you can!” 8^D

I shoot BT by th way!

From: Pig Doc
02-Mar-20
As an inventor with several patents I have a real problem with the "I couldn't care less" attitude on patent infringement. It is stealing, no different than if someone walked into your house and stole your TV, only on a much larger scale. I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars protecting intellectual property that I spent years developing from thieves like this. I hope they go broke.

From: jingalls
02-Mar-20
Chad, I can understand your frustration. But you honestly think that when you get a patent no one is going to try and use your design?

I have dealt with business my entire career. I don’t know if any businessmen or attorneys that won’t tell you a patent is only as good as you are willing to defend it.

It is a common practice. Mainly due to companies tweaking a design to get around a patent. Sometimes it works...and sometimes it doesn’t.

And congrats on earning your patents. Obviously you are gifted to achieve them!

From: Pig Doc
02-Mar-20
And the only winners are the attorneys....

From: jingalls
02-Mar-20
Unfortunately...you are correct! Don’t let it get to and keep working hard!!!

From: Teeton
02-Mar-20
I know many don't care and yes the consumer won't Care,. But I bet B -T will care in the form of $$$. I'm sure the law suit was not only about having them stop using it. If it was just a settlement, I'm sure we'll never know the outcome..

From: Matt
02-Mar-20
Jingalls, reading your post I couldn't help but wonder if substituting your wife for the patent would change your perspective?

Can't blame them for trying.

And if it was just the tip, it might not even be cheating.

From: HDE
02-Mar-20
Difference is that it became illegal to own a person decades ago...

From: jingalls
02-Mar-20
Matt, typical response from the BS crowd! If you read my post, “NO” where do I say I agree with it nor support it!

It is a fact of being in business! If you have a patent you will need to have the mindset that you will need to defend it to protect what you have created.

From: WapitiBob
02-Mar-20
Bowtech is nowhere close to going broke. They admitted the infringement and agreed to license the technology. This stuff happens in archery all the time, difference here is that most just license because it’s cheaper than calling in the lawyers. There is nothing on a compound bow that isn't patented or wasn't patented at some point.

From: Thornton
03-Mar-20
I'll buy Bowtech any day over the others regardless

From: Ambush
03-Mar-20
"Catch Us If You Can".

"But pay us if WE CATCH YOU!"

From: Matte
03-Mar-20
Inventions with a patent is one thing. Improving the wheel is not.

From: 12yards
03-Mar-20
Any Bowtech shooters banging on Mathews bows will now have to go to time-out.

From: rodb
03-Mar-20
It didn't seem to bother PSE when they had to pay up for Allen patent.

From: ELKMAN
03-Mar-20
So funny

From: Jaquomo
03-Mar-20
Mathews should pay Bowtech for improving the design...

This kind of stuff happens all the time in technology. My career was in big tech and suits were ongoing continuously. Suing over cable routing? Really? Lawyers for both sides will make more money and we, the shooters, will pay the bills. Even if Mathews wins a big $ settlement, you don't suppose they'll pass that on to consumers by lowering prices, right?

Every bow maker since the very first one has borrowed design ideas from others. Allen was suing Jennings when he died. Larson archery previously sued Mathews and Bowtech. Mathews sued PSE. Bowtech was sued by Claude Hadley. Garmin was sued by WAP for patent infringement on their compensating sight. Every little engineering change is patented, and by the time the suit is settled the defendant has moved on to a slightly different design.

Much ado about nothing...

From: BTM
03-Mar-20
Good one, Ambush!

From: Trial153
03-Mar-20
Pretty sad how people in such a small community industry like archery treat each other and disrespect each other’s work. The whole thing is silly.

From: HDE
03-Mar-20
Like it or not, one of the nuances of capitalsim in the race to "build a better mouse trap".

If anyone thinks human nature will always sit idle and not take advantage or credit for others accomplishments is fooling themselves...

From: Jaquomo
03-Mar-20
Thank goodness there weren't patent lawyers around back in 1000 B.C. when the first composite recurves were invented....

From: Huntcell
03-Mar-20
Ya the Turks bowyer showed the Mongols a thing or two on the field of battle.

From: Jaquomo
03-Mar-20
How 'bout the English and their longbows kicking the Frenchie's crossgun-toting asses at Agincourt? 600 years later and the X-bow guys still haven't gotten the memo.

From: HDE
03-Mar-20
But a crossbow bolt killed Richard on his way back to England...

From: bowbender77
03-Mar-20
Bowtech will recover WAY before Bowjangles.

03-Mar-20
Lol...This is cute! Some great reply’s though...

From: skull
03-Mar-20
I knew was something wrong about my bowtech, there was some mathews parts on it

From: Buffalo1
03-Mar-20
De Ja Vu- Patents fights between Bear Archery & Jennings Archery circa 1970’s.

From: Trophyhill
04-Mar-20
I didn't know Bowtech was trying to make a slow bow.....

From: ELKMAN
04-Mar-20
Agreed Jaq...

04-Mar-20
Haha trophyhill!!! I was in the market for a new bow last year. Had previously shot hoyt but it came down bowtech or Mathews and went with bowtech- both were smooth and dead in hand but those were only similarities I noticed. Very happy with my bowtech and hope they keep on trucking!

From: splitlimb13
04-Mar-20
Everyone just buy a Hoyt n all problems solved!

From: SaddleReaper
04-Mar-20
The archery industry is one of the most litigious...that's an unfortunate fact.

There is a lot to this case that people don't know, not just pertaining to reading and understanding each claim and the designs on both sides which are in question. Think prior art... and an examiner that had their head up their ass. Some patents should have never been granted.

Anyways, Mathews, the marketing machine, presented this news release in a way to make them look good of course! And people eat it up.

From: DanaC
04-Mar-20
Patent infringement has been going on forever. Little remembered fact - prior to World War 1 the US was paying Mauser of Germany because the Springfield '03 rifle was deemed to be a close copy of the Mauser 98. Plus ca change...

From: Pig Doc
04-Mar-20
Theft has been going on forever. Doesn't make it right.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Mar-20
"Patent infringement has been going on forever."

So has robbery, but that doesn't make it right.

Matt

From: PECO
04-Mar-20
"Everyone just buy a Hoyt n all problems solved!"

I would, maybe, if I were looking for a new bow. However, word on the street is that Hoyt is still using ancient technology and they are light years behind the other bow companies. Plus they are heavy and overpriced.

From: splitlimb13
04-Mar-20

splitlimb13's embedded Photo
splitlimb13's embedded Photo
I am pretty biased. Shooting Hoyt for 16 years. Shoots awesome .

From: Shawn
04-Mar-20
Shoots awesome and costs 1600 bucks for about 150 in material. Sorry talked to a Hoyt rep yesterday and he even said, no reason they could not sell them for 12 hinge and still do well. Shawn

From: Pig Doc
04-Mar-20
These threads always devolve into "my brand is best" garbage. The thread is about patent infringement, and no one but you really cares what brand you shoot.

From: HDE
04-Mar-20
But if people actually stayed on the topic of the thread, they would only be 3 or 4 posts long, 5 tops.

What's the fun in that...?

From: SaddleReaper
04-Mar-20
$150 in material Shawn?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

From: Redheadtwo
04-Mar-20
They're all the same. Some are just uglier than others.

04-Mar-20
Bottom line reps can not sell bows, so no pay checks,,why. Crossbows one and done

From: RD in WI
04-Mar-20
It is too bad that patent infringement occurs and competing companies cut corners instead of properly using licensing agreements. I'd like to think that sharing ideas will speed up the refinement process of certain technologies, so the consumer would eventually have the best possible product available - this won't happen rapidly if companies continue to act poorly. I turn 50 in October and I am still waiting for a 37" ATA compound with a 7+ inch brace height that shoots a 500 grain arrow at 300 fps with a 27.5 inch draw length - and is whisper quiet. Archery companies please unite!

From: JL
04-Mar-20
"But if people actually stayed on the topic of the thread, they would only be 3 or 4 posts long, 5 tops."

^X2....there would be alot of short threads to weed thru.....or skip.

From: Bowfreak
05-Mar-20
"$150 in material Shawn?

You have no idea what you're talking about. "

Yes. It was a ludicrous statement. I know for a fact that an archery manufacturer that did everything in house, machining, strings, film dip, etc. had $400 invested in every bow.

From: bigswivle
05-Mar-20
Oneida eagle has been ahead of this from the beginning, ain’t no one gonna copy that thing

05-Mar-20
Bowfreak,

What did he pay for insurance, legal, marketing etc?

From: Bowfreak
05-Mar-20
I have no idea but nobody is building a for for $150.

From: SaddleReaper
05-Mar-20
COG's around $400 is the case for many smaller mfgs. Likely lower for the big 4 for most models - with the exception of some carbon models probably.

From: PECO
05-Mar-20
Maybe $150 in raw material.

From: wkochevar
05-Mar-20
Who knows, but the $1,200 I'm gonna plunk down later this afternoon for one certainly isn't going to hurt them.... ;-)

05-Mar-20

Missouribreaks's Link

From: KHNC
06-Mar-20
This lawsuit was a compromise by both parties. No real winner or losers. Also, the current "deadlock" technology from Bowtech was not part of this. Bowtech has already moved forward on this. It will not affect day to day operations or warranty issues.

From: carcus
07-Mar-20
"Mathews wins the patent infringement suit against Bowtech. Can they recover?" I hope so cause they are the only bow I could tune without moving my rest way out of center!

07-Mar-20

Missouribreaks's Link
As the industry changes, this is how they and others may survive.

From: Boreal
07-Mar-20
The "article" you referenced is a cut and paste sales pitch for industry market reports.

07-Mar-20
The message is there, that is all.

From: Bowfreak
07-Mar-20
KHNC,

While this is nothing out of the ordinary or crippling, Bowtech will be paying money to Mathews that they didn't in the past. They lost. If it didn't matter they would have been paying from the get go.

From: Pig Doc
07-Mar-20
"This lawsuit was a compromise by both parties. No real winner or losers."

Innovation is expensive. Protecting innovation is expensive. Defending innovation is expensive. Patent lawsuits are expensive. The losers in all of this are purchasers of archery equipment.

From: Bowfreak
07-Mar-20
Agreed Pig Doc.

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