Grain Arrow and Broadhead
Elk
New to archery hunting elk. I am currently shooting 250 grain blue streak's with a 100 grain Rage broadhead for whitetails. Looking to see what everyone is using for arrow weight and broadhead to hunt elk. Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank You.
Go with an overall arrow weight equal to 7 times your draw weight, in grains and use a 125 grain cut on contact broadhead. You can use a 100 grain broadhead and then add some additional weight to the front end. Keep the FOC of your arrow high.
That seems like a pretty light setup for elk. I like 450 grains
What is the draw weight of your bow?
Killed a lot of elk with a 425 grain arrow tipped with a Snuffer off of 55-65# longbows...
Got to hit them in the right spot!
I prefer a little heavier total arrow weight though - 525-550 grains seems to penetrate much better and be a good balance of trajectory and mass for penetration. Increasing the weight up front (FOC) will also help a lot for penetration. My current arrows are tapered carbon with 200 grain, 2-blade, single bevel, solid broadheads up front with a total arrow weight of 535 grains. Amazing penetration, even on bad angles and through bone.
Your set up will work just fine - under the right conditions and with the right shot angle. Most of the time, elk don't give you a perfect, broadside, standing shot though... Have seen too many elk shot and lost with compounds shooting light arrows and expandable broadheads. Solid, cut-on-contact heads have less chance of failure.
I would rather have too much arrow than not enough... Especially with elk or other big critters with limited time and the possibility of only getting one animal in range on your hunt. In range doesn't necessarily mean that perfect shot angle either!
Good luck!
My elk arrows are Beman ICS Hunter camo 340 spine with 150 grain Magnus Stinger 4 blade. 486 grains total arrow weight.
I am currently shooting the Mathews Vertix, 27" draw length set at 65 pounds but looking to bump it to 70 pounds. If anyone has suggestions on what exact arrow to go with, with specifications and what broadhead I would greatly appreciate it. I want to take all of my guess work out of it and go with what has actually worked for guys that have shot elk with their bow. Thank You everyone for the help on this.
Axis 340’s, with 100gr Vipertricks and 75gr brasss inserts. Total weight is 430gr. 26” DL and 61# draw weight.
Don't over bow yourself.
A modern compound at 45 pounds will send an arrow with a lot more energy and momentum than a 60 pound longbow!
If you can't sit on the ground on your butt with your legs straight in front of you and draw your bow straight back, you are shooting too much weight.
A heavier arrow will be quieter, more efficient off your bow, less stress on your bow, and will penetrate better.
500ish grain total arrow weight
Vipertricks for compound
Ace or Zwickey two blade for recurve
I shoot 70lbs. 490 grain arrows with 125grain broadhead and 50 grain outsert.
Go with heavier arrow with a brass insert 50 or 75 grain. As previously mentioned, heavier and more FOC and cut on contact broadhead. I shoot a 475 grain arrow with 95 grain insert and 100 grain head. 16% FOC. Great penetration.
Shooting 190 2 blade up frint with 425grn shaft.
K
Shooting 190 2 blade up frint with 425grn shaft.
K
FMJ 300 arrows with a 125 grain Magnus Snuffer SS weighing right at 500 grains out of a 72lb Carbon Spyder Turbo gets awesome penetration on elk for me.
Gold Tip Hunters for me, dropped my total weight down to 425 gr. for compound (450 with stickbows) for trajectory purposes after I switched to 125 gr. Iron Will heads. My trad bows are 53-57#, compound is 58#. No issues with penetration.
A well tuned setup that flies like a dart and hits where you're aiming is way more important than total arrow weight/draw weight/FOC if the arrow has even a slight wobble, or you misjudge distance (trajectory). My partner and I have never shot higher draw weight than 58# (mostly recurves and longbows) and 450 grain arrows, and we've killed a LOT of elk.
FYI, there is a man on the Bowsite who rarely posts anymore, who has killed more elk with a bow than anyone alive. He shoots 390-400 grain arrows with 10% FOC, for what it's worth.
Listen to wyobullshooter, jaq and treeline. They have killed a bunch of elk. I would not increase weight ( just my opinion). Last elk I killed was with a 57 lb compound and 425 gr arrow ( 3 blade muzzy) quartering away shot and complete pass through. Get your bow fine tuned and shot placement with a sharp Broadhead will get it done. (I would use a 340 spine shaft if I was you). Enjoy the process!
my arrows, 60 pound recurve, Bemam Centershot 400, 250 grain cutthroat, total arrow weight 580. Fly like darts.
Bloodtrail, no, not Burnworth. This man is one of the best western bowhunters few have heard of. Very humble and unassuming. All he does is kill big stuff. He posts occasionally on this forum. I believe (at last count) he has killed 53 at age 53. He was a friend of, and sometimes hunted with Danny Moore.
Shooting 50# and 400gr this coming year with slick trik standards or nap spitfire 125's.
I shoot everything with the same arrow and weight combo. I shoot 62#s and draw 27.5"s. I shoot a 175 grain COC broadhead and total arrow weight is 475 grains. Shawn
My arrows are 470 grains with COC broadhead out of a 74 lb bow
Correction to my post above... He's only 52. ;-)
My arrow is Axis 340 cut to 26.5 with a 125 grain Magnus Buzzcut two-blade total weight 435 grains. My draw weight is 65lbs at 27DL. Like stated you can shoot a lot less weight and still kill elk. Shot placement is the key!
At which point do you know when to switch spines? I shoot FMJ 5mm. 60lb draw, 30.75” arrow, 29.5” draw length with 100gr Ramcats. Could I get away with a 50/75 grain insert shooting 340’s? Is it just build them up and trial and error? I’m guessing I would have to switch to 300’s at some point, which I’m not opposed to.
My arrows are 26.5"s and .400 spine and I shoot a190 grains up front with insert. At almost 31"s for arrow length you maybe ok with the340s but I would think the .300s may be best. Shawn
I usually use a arrow that is around 415 grains total arrow weight ....really don't have a clue what my FOC is....Easton sends inserts in the package the shafts come in and thats what i use.
Biggest thing in my mind is shot selection....get them close and less goes wrong.
Gold tip has a chart that is pretty clear with arrow weight, draw length and #'s on your bow for spine selection. It may be a good reference point to start with.
Gold tip has a chart that is pretty clear with arrow weight, draw length and #'s on your bow for spine selection. It may be a good reference point to start with.
I have added 100 grain stainless steel ethics inserts into 300 FMJs so I am at about 600 grains with 100 grain broadheads. DO not use big 2" expNDABLES ON ELK. you want an exit hole and penetration is really important on elk. I am 67 now and had to crank my peak weight down to 64 this year after shooting 80 lbs for decades.
Big Bandit, did you mean your arrow is a 250 spline or 250 grain?
What spline are you shooting and how long is your arrow?
Do not over think it - get some 340 spine shafts - total arrow weight 425 grains or more at your 65 pounds. Pick a sharp head - tune it all up and practice. Go kill elk.
Big Bandit, did you mean your arrow is a 250 spline or 250 grain?
What spline are you shooting and how long is your arrow?
Guys I am not very Techy on this and have always just shot Whitetails and what I have used has worked so i haven't looked much into it. Teeton this is what I am shooting. I assume it is 250 Grain with 400 Spine. Carbon Express Maxima® Blu™ RZ Arrows. I don't know my exact arrow length but draw length is right around 27". I apologize for my lack of knowledge on all of this guys but do really appreciate the information on all of this and seems I may need to visit a Pro Shop and go through a lot of this to get the proper set up.
I will add and please comment thoughts on this but I bought the Vertix at the start of 2019 deer season. I also switched to 3 Blade Rage instead of the 2 Blade. Vertix is much faster than the Hoyt Alphamax I was shooting, killed many deer with it though. Anyways I was using the same arrow set up other than broadheads from the Alphamax to the Vertix. I had a quatering away shot on a buck at 38 yards. Shot placement was perfect but I only got 4" of penetration and was almost like the arrow entered the hide, hit a rib and just deflected forward. I know this because we killed the buck later in gun season and the broadhead was still in him. Would the lack of penetration be to light of an arrow with a faster bow or simply a broadhead that did not perform as it should have? Any thoughts on this as I do not want it to happen again. Thank You all for the feedback on this thread.
First things first. Since you’re new to elk hunting, you need to realize elk aren’t just big whitetails. They are big, hardy animals with thicker hide and bigger, thicker bones. If you read through the posts, you’ll find the answer to your question. MOST experienced elk hunters use arrows that range from roughly 425-450gr, and MOST also use COC fixed blade broadheads.
Sounds like your total arrow weight is around 350 grains. That will give you speed, but the lack of mass can hurt penetration when you hit a rib at an angle or a shoulder blade with about any broadhead. Expandable broadheads compound the problem.
A heavier arrow will be harder to stop or deflect off course. If you have more mass up front and a stiff arrow shaft following that broadhead, it will penetrate better. Laws of physics.
A stiffer spined arrow with a heavier, cut-on-contact, solid broadhead will penetrate better for you on whitetails as well as bigger critters.
In my world, arrows tuned to 150 grain broadheads are the minimum for reliability. For bigger, tougher animals 200 to 300 grain broadheads are way tougher and more reliable. My arrows that are tuned to 150 grain points are finishing at 475 grains.
I just checked my arrows tuned for 200 grain point weight and was surprised that they are only 505 grains. That is on a .325 spine tapered carbon arrow that flies perfectly off my longbow. Have shot a couple of elk, several deer, an antelope and an oryx with that arrow setup with 2- and 3- blade broadheads and have been amazed at the performance. The 2-blade single bevel Cutthroats have blown through off-side scapulas on elk and the oryx.
The carbon express Webb site says this arrow is 400 spine. The 250 just designates it as that. The weight is 7.45 gr per in. So a 27 in arrow would weigh 201 grains plus knock, insert, fletching, and Broadhead. Also that arrow has been discontinued. A 340 gold tip xt with 125 gr fixed Broadhead would work fine. But there are a lot of great options out there. Enjoy the process.
Not to make this difficult i would say 400gr the lightest id ever shoot for elk and 600 the heaviest.
“ there are a lot of great options out there. Enjoy the process.”
Wellllll.....
JMO, there are those who love digging into this stuff and experimenting with all the Whys and Wherefores and Howzzatts and Guzzintas.... And I have to confess that I’m usually one of them… and honestly, I really DO enjoy the process and the tinkering, so no harm done.
But then there are other, probably more sensible types who just want to know what’s going to work. And the great thing about the current state of bowhunting technology is that if you shoot a compound probably you can be one of the latter without any meaningful penalties. Just find yourself a good pro shop and take their advice. Most likely, this will not be any kind of a chain operation. Just sayin’... 40 years ago we had a shop like that in Denver, but he sold out and an REI store moved into that space. I don’t know where you’d go now, but I’m sure nobody can tell you right if they don’t know the neighborhood...
So I’m not about to give anybody any advice about setting up a compound, because I’ve only taken it half-seriously once, and all I had to do was walk-back tune it, which took like 2 small adjustments to get everything right down the middle as far as I had room to shoot. Seemed pretty straightforward, but what do I know? LOL
One thing, though... Compound guys seem to be obsessed with speed (I guess for those long shots that we’ve all agreed should be taken by few and discussed by none), but... what’s the point? If it’s past your first pin, you probably really ought to be using a rangefinder, shouldn’t you? And at that rate, the velocity is kind of a non-issue. A .50 BMG sniper rifle isn’t any faster than a .270 or even an ‘06, is it?
At #60, 8 GPP is only 480, and that’s not exactly a heavy arrow; a lot of Trad guys would call that about right for a #45 or a bit light at #50. I’m leaning towards about 540 for my “heavy”, which runs right about #62.... With a moderately wide COC 2-blade, it’s probably overkill (assuming I’m tuned right), but I’m OK with that...
I’ll be using what I used last September that blew through a large 5x5 bull. That would be a 63 pound compound, 31” arrow tipped with an Iron Will 125 grain, total arrow weight 475 grains.
Carbon Express Mutiny - 400ish grains and a 100 gr 3 blade muzzy broadhead.
Before designing your Elk Arrow, these questions must be answered. Are mechanical broadheads legal where you are planning to hunt? Does that state have a minimum arrow weight? How far of a shot are you willing to take?
I've seen success and failure with most types and brands of broadheads. When a shot goes bad, the only thing that will save the hunt is penetration caused by a heavy, sharp broadhead/arrow combination.
Over the years I've made a few observations and will share them with you.
Design your arrows to get the most penetration. Elk require an arrow with an FOC greater than 18%. The heavier the arrow, the better. Something in the 465 to 520 gr. range seems to be a good. I would suggest this being the minimum weight range.
I've shot a small fortune in arrows and broadheads into elk bones. I observed a threshold at which the bones would shatter. Not just be cut, or break, but actually shatter. This normally occurred in the 460 - 500 gr. total arrow weight. The slight trade off in speed loss is out weighed by the penetration potential one could gain.
When a broadhead bends or breaks, you don't get penetration. Look for a Titanium or Steel ferrule. When striking bone, a 2 blade will normally out penetrate a multi-blade broadhead all things being equal. Smaller diameter broadheads will penetrate deeper than a large diameter.
Topping the list of 2-blade cut on contact (COC) broadheads would be those styled like German Kinetics, Iron Will, Day Six Evo and Bone. All are good. Day Six Evo being the best in my opinion, but pricey. Magnus makes some good heads as well. All depends on your budget.
If your blade sharpening skills aren't the best, consider Exodus or the G5 Striker V-2. Both are good replaceable 3-blade broadheads. Steel Force Phat Head's with the steel ferrule are one of the toughest.
It all boils down to what works best for your setup. Penetration is probably the most important element. But it must be delivered accurately. So let's take a look at that part.
First off, I admire your quest for information. It can only make you a better hunter!
Easton Axis "Match Grade" shafts are among the toughest and most consistent I've tested. My favorite shaft is the Black Eagle "X - Impact" for ease of building, it's not quite as tough (won't bounce off metal) as the Axis . Both are quality shafts and easy to build. The Black Eagles uses a Stainless Steel Outsert to get to an FOC to 18 - 19%. If needed, to get that FOC up to 18-19% use an extra weight at the tip. Ethics Archery and Easton both have a good selection of weight inserts, just get the correct (ID) inside diameter. It makes no difference if you shoot a 200gr. broadhead or a 100gr. insert with a 100gr. broadhead up front. Why 18-19% FOC? You will see better and more consistent grouping at longer ranges plus more penetration at any range. As "Treeline" mentioned, the ability to "Buck Brush" and not deflect off course improves with a higher FOC. Most hunters get so excited when a big bull is within range they have a problem picking a spot on the elk to aim at. They commonly don't see obstructions in the way.
You will need to up the Spine rating on your arrows when raising the FOC. If you are presently shooting 350 spine arrows in your Vertex, go to a 300 spine if staying at 65#. At 70# use a 250 spine shaft if your arrow length is 29" or more.
Vane choice is totally up to you. What ever you like. I've seen good results with all. Firenock AeroVane 3's are the quietest and spin an arrow the hardest.
Undoubtedly lots of elk have been taken with lighter setups, why not put the odds in your favor?
Try this, hold a volley ball out at waist high, drop it on you toe. Now do the same test using a bowling ball. Same principle applies to your arrow set up. OK, might be a bad example, but think about it.
Good Hunting! PS. I too have hunted with Danny Moore aka "Daniel Boone"!
IMO Elk do not have a wide body and the hide isn’t very thick over the ribs. Most people’s set up will kill an elk. And 400 grain setups have killed a lot of elk.
Even with that said
I still prefer to be at least closer to high 400s. And in the 500s much better.
I use Low 400s for deer sized animals
But I prefer pass throughs and dirt on my broadhead.
I don’t prefer to Find my animal with the arrow still in it Not a hard and fast rule by any means.
Outthere, lots of good advice but a couple of points I think are worth contesting.
"Elk require an arrow with an FOC greater than 18%."
I would venture that a very small percentage of elk have been killed with arrow with that level of FOC, so I would strongly disagree with that comment.
"Try this, hold a volley ball out at waist high, drop it on you toe. Now do the same test using a bowling ball. Same principle applies to your arrow set up. OK, might be a bad example, but think about it. "
A more relevant example would be to compare a volley ball to a soccer ball (~1.8x weight differential between the two, which is comparable to the difference between a 350 gr. arrow and a 625 gr. arrow). More weight is better, but IMO the benefit tends to get dramatically overstated.
^^^ this. I've never shot an elk with anywhere near 18% FOC, or hunted with anyone who has.
Some good advice above that works for Outthere, but certainly not necessary to kill elk consistently.
If you're hitting bone that needs to be shattered other than ribs, you've made a really bad shot. Some would argue that we should hope for the best and plan for the worst. Agree to a point, but accuracy at unknown distances and shooting at reasonable ranges helps minimize the odds for worst case. Almost every miss or bad hit we hear about is either high, low, or gut. Two of those are caused by misjudging trajectory, and the third is just poor placement. A lighter, flatter arrow can help with the first two, and heavy arrow/heavy FOC makes no difference on a gut shot.
Of all the variables we can control, accuracy at unknown distances and a perfectly-tuned arrow/broadhead package top the list.
Adding: I love it when I find the front half of my arrow inside the elk. Means I've made a perfect shot tight behind the crease quartering away, or broadside straight up the front leg in BB's "V", with the broadhead lodged in the offside shoulder.
I've had good luck w/ 550 grains plus w/ a big 3 blade Snuffer.
My elk setup for the past few years has been 500 grain total arrow weight, Easton match grade Axis with Iron Will 25 grain HIT, Impact Collar, and s125 broadhead. Passed through at 52 and 67 yards on a big bull last year. With a 70 lb bow, I like 450-525 total arrow weight personally for a good balance of trajectory and penetration, along with a durable cut on contact head for elk.
418 grain arrow, 67# 30.5" draw. I've shot three good bulls with Montec G5s, but switched to Grim Reapers for a whitetail hunt two years ago and that broadhead destroyed that buck. Last year I shot a RMBS and goat with the same setup and both animals expired within 30 secs. Going to try that setup this year on elk. I may regret not using a fixed blade, but only one way to find out.
It's great that you're asking and learning. I don't think you need to over think it. A lot of guys shooting extremely heavy arrows and broadheads are shooting recurves and long bows. For a compound, if your arrow is in the 400-500 grain range with a good 100-125 grain fixed blade broadhead like a slick trick or G5 Stryker you should be good to go.
And yes, I also had a mechanical (Wasp Jak Hammer) deflect off of a deers ribs and not enter the ribcage. I killed him with a follow up shot and verified the deflection and lack of penetration.
BigBandit, You are right to look for advice here. In my opinion, your current setup is NOT sufficient for an elk hunt. You have too many factors against you such as short draw length, light arrow, and wide-cut mechanical broadhead. Your setup is barely enough for whitetails much less elk, where your primary goal is two-hole penetration. Collapse only one lung and you will not recover an elk. Your bow is fine, and your draw length is fixed, so I would recommend you go up in arrow weight to at least 450 grains or higher. The lower your draw weight/arrow speed, the heavier your arrow should be. Also, considering your potential arrow speed I would go with a cut-on-contact broadhead like many of the ones already mentioned or at least a fixed-blade broadhead. It's not the opening of the mechanical broadhead that robs penetration as much as it is the wide, two-inch-plus cut. Those who are shooting considerably more arrow speed and weight can get excellent results with a wide-cut mechanical but penetration suffers with a light arrow like yours, even on deer. Anyway, this has always been a hot topic for me and I had to throw in my two cents. Tune your bow to a heavier arrow, and when that elk comes walking in, draw your bow before you think you need to, then pick a spot. Good luck.
Curt, as your editor, I would suggest an occasional paragraph break to make your essay more readable.
;-)
Here a arrow Kinetic energy calculator. Click link Ed
https://www.westernwhitetail.com/tools/archery/arrow-kinetic-energy-calculator/
I get 80.77
Dear Editor,
My paragraphs did not show up in the copy for some reason.
Evidently, a double-tap is required?
Maybe.
Lowly Scribe...
Need four taps for the first one, then double-tap after that. But your input is so valuable that I forced my way through it!
not to takeaway from this post Kinetic energy 41.63 From Teeton chart link my set up for my recurve. whats yours for other trads on this chat
KE is only one small part of the killing equation. My partner and my longbows and recurves generate between 40-45 ft/lbs. More than 55 of our elk have been killed with those bows, and most with Muzzy 4 or 3 blade 125s, or Slick Trick 125s.
Agree with most here that your setup is a bit light. 65# is plenty, but as many have said, get your total arrow weight up some. Find a combo that shoots well out of your bow and work to get a reasonable shot. It's mostly about shot placement. For what it's worth I shoot 63# 28.5 draw length with total weight around 435 grains and a fixed blade COC broadhead. I've killed quite a few elk with this setup.
Heavier arrow is almost always a good idea for elk. I come in around 580gr total weight, with an 80 lb draw weight, and a longer draw. I shoot Rages for elk, but also have a setup that is conducive for it. For what you have I would not recommend Rages. I would try to get your arrow weight a little a higher for sure. I really like Easton Axis 5mm with a footer in the front. A 125 grain head with a footer really helps with FOC. I have been amazed at how well a heavy, front loaded arrow penetrates. I have also used Slick Trick viper tricks with great success, and believe it is a superb head design with the ferrule tip in line with the blade angle. Good luck to you, whatever you choose!
