Contributors to this thread:
You can add your own dot to this picture.
You can add your own dot to this picture.
If you don’t like my spots then add your own on the un-spotted elk!
For some context, 30 yards, you’re slightly downhill as you can see. OTC unit, with 5 minutes left of shooting light on the last day of the season! Shoot or go home and make tag soup!
Here are some dots for the less computer savvy!
I like the light blue spot, that's where I would aim
Right in the center of the orange,blue,green and purple. I believe I still get the a hole in the diaphragm and both lungs that way. Shawn
If I’m on my knees I’m aiming top of red, standing I’m aiming bottom of blue
I’m thinkin’ I sure wish I could get away with tossing a rock or something off to my right to get him to stop and turn that direction to see what’s going on over there, and there’s a real good chance I’d pass if he didn’t turn off some....
But if I were inexplicably compelled to take a chance on this one, I’m thinking split the difference between yellow and green but (editing here!) [a few inches] higher, because the lungs extend farther back up higher and I would hate to hit the paunch; if he’s got a belly full of grass, there’s no way I’m getting through that, but maybe at last light that’s less likely to be an issue.
Trouble is that the spine dips low up front, and you have to stay under it, which makes the high lung area to the rear problematic.
Alternatively.... Hitting high under the spine, there are kidneys and big vessels branching off of the DA/AVC if you stray aft. Trouble is that spot will lodge the head under the off scap, and that blood trail is going to SUCK. Which at last light is kind of a deal- breaker....
Overall, this one just doesn’t work for me.
With the angle he is at if hit perfectly will only get the liver & one lung IMO. You will need to give him a long time before tracking, and it will likely be a long track job. I'm passing due to the angle.
Hunt addict, there’s a heart in there too! And a bunch of arteries that go in and out.
Blue dot. I’ve shot a doe just like that at 35. She went less than 30 yards with a last rib entrance. She could have been slightly more quartered. There’s a chance I miss the opportunity waiting on him to turn though because at 30 if he didn’t know I was there id likely give him the opportunity to turn. First or last day makes no difference unless I’m hunting an oil tag then he might walk anyways.
Umm what's up with the butthole dot?
Too tight quartering away. If more open, I would op for the yellow dot as I did with this elk. At 20 yards, Arrow entered at last rib and came out opposite front shoulder. Dead in 40 yards.
Last light of last day. Shot has to be perfect at 30 yds or you're tracking the next day when it won't be legal to carry your bow. I'm passing.
In order to hit the bull's left lung your arrow would have to pass thru his ribcage on the left side of center (i.e. left of his spine). At this angle I think you'd have to shoot quite a ways left (black dot) in order to get your arrow far enough left to also hit the left lung. But I'm not shooting that close to the hind quarter and the black dot might be too low and be under the lungs. I don't think there's a shot there that gets you both lungs because by the time the arrow gets left of center it will be in front of the lungs.
I think this shot gets you one lung and also possibly the heart and the major vessels connecting to the heart.
I'm concerned though with the steep angle and the possibility of deflecting off the ribs rather than penetrating the rib cage.
At 30 yards I'm not very comfortable with this shot and I would probably cow call to try to turn him and give me a better angle. If he doesn't turn I'll probably have tag soup.
Right between blue and yellow. He'd have to be 30 or under for me to take that shot angle tho.
Light blue Partial liver, right lung, front of left lung, the largest artery’s and Veins in the body,
He won’t go 100 yards
Between light blue and red for me.
All the forward dots have potential of an arm pit only shot. Yellow, blue and Red and even black dots all would kill the elk pretty quick, but not an easy shot - only a few inches of error left and right.
I'd let him turn away a little more, then aim at the white dot. ;-)
Matt
Looks a little up hill so Lite blue. I killed a few deer and bear in that spot. No never shot a elk there, but one hasn't presented that shot to me. None of the deer or bear made it more than 4 or 5 seconds before down. Ed
At 30 yards I am waiting for a better shot. If elk hunting is just get an arrow in one and take your chances fine, but that mentally has led to too many lost or wounded elk on archery hunts. I do not be the elk hunting stud at the expense a great game animal. Especially on the last night, no time for a responsible search as your hunting partner needs to head for home please the wife or boss or both. My 2 cents.
I’m not sure how, but I must’ve missed the 30 yard part in the OP. In which case, yeah, I’m out.
Looks like I got to zoomed in, also, and missed the uphill aspect; in which case my first call for this one is way too high.
And rather than disagreeing with anybody in particular on their choices, I will simply say that this goes to show that it’s difficult to read these quartering angles. The longer I look at this one the more I wonder what the hell I was ever thinking in the first place. The front end of that dude is pointed almost straight away.
But I’m sure glad that it’s the next morning and I’m wondering what the hell I was thinking from here at home and not up on the hill...
Lots of guys liked this shot from the front, frontal shot. Not as many guys like it from this side but the arrow path is almost identical. The light blue is going to come out right where you’d put a frontal shot. Those of you that like the frontal but not this one, why the change of heart?
Quartered a little too steep for me...pass !
For me the two major differences between this and the frontal shot scenario are the facts that this one is at 30 yards, and his right hind quarter is really close to where I want to shoot. Miss a little left and you shoot him in the ham. Other factors are the steep quartering angle turning the ribcage into a wall of bones that could deflect the arrow and the fact that a cow call will probably turn him to a more favorable angle.
I also have experience with the frontal shot and no experience with this shot on an elk.
Cheesehead X2. I took a shot exactly like that on a muley several years ago. Caught him right in the ham. Took me over 2 miles to catch up to him and get another arrow in him. Pass for me at that range. Under 20yds, yes. I like that quartering to frontal shot though.
Between the blue and the black
I'm gonna pass from this side; ribs at that angle bother me. I'd shoot him if I was on the other side and semi frontal though.
"Lots of guys liked this shot from the front, frontal shot. Not as many guys like it from this side but the arrow path is almost identical. "
At least two major differences. First; he's farther away AND accuracy is more critical with this angle. If he moves AT ALL, things will go bad in a hurry, and by move, I mean forward, back, or even a slight turn, or just bringing that right rear forward. A bit left, you hit the heavy muscle of the ham. A bit right, you may get some amount of deflection off a rib. Either way, you have to go through a lot of soggy hay to hit anything good, limiting penetration and making a good blood trail less likely. As is indicated by all the different aiming points suggested, figuring out where the heart is isn't easy, and if you miss that, or left, or right just a bit, you only get one lung and probably liver. An elk can go a long way with a hit like that. Also, for me, I never like to intentionally go through the guts before hitting the chest cavity. Too much can go wrong.
If I had a lot of oomph, blue dot. Having to traverse that much gut would worry me with my set-up in terms of getting full penetration/exit. You'll get little to no blood from an entrance wound at that angle.
Pass. I don’t need to kill an elk so bad that I’m taking such a poor shot.
"Lots of guys liked this shot from the front, frontal shot. Not as many guys like it from this side but the arrow path is almost identical. The light blue is going to come out right where you’d put a frontal shot. Those of you that like the frontal but not this one, why the change of heart?" First, most guys would agree 30 yards is too long for a frontal shot. Second, from this angle there's a good chance of ribs defecting an arrow and having it slide forward of what you intended. Extremely small margin of error here, and plenty of chance to turn out badly.
Ucsdryder, stated downhill to me it looks a little up hill. Am I seeing it wrong or is it up hill? Ed
"Lots of guys liked this shot from the front, frontal shot. Not as many guys like it from this side but the arrow path is almost identical. The light blue is going to come out right where you’d put a frontal shot. Those of you that like the frontal but not this one, why the change of heart?"
30 yards on a frontal shot doesn't worry me but, as I mentioned, I don't like ribs at that angle. In addition, a 3 blade vented head will clog up real bad going thru the paunch. Just too much going on for me.
I know John posted the white dot in jest, and I'd never advocate intentionally taking that shot, but I do know from experience that it's an extremely lethal shot. I once had a bull whirl and run directly away from me just as I released my arrow. The arrow hit the white dot, traveled the entire length of his body, and lodged in his brisket. The blood trail was like someone had sprayed it from a garden hose. He went about 75 yards and piled up.
Matt
"...a 3 blade vented head will clog up real bad going thru the paunch."
A vented head will clog up on pretty much all tissue - so why use one when there are quality unvented heads to choose from, and they tune the same?
In addition to the 30 yard distance, a difference for me on this angle vs. frontal is that on a frontal if you hit your spot your arrow is in the boiler room. From behind you have to get through a lot of body and have the angle that will exit out the boiler room. Angle through the vitals is always important, but especially in this scenario. IMO it’s a tough shot. Not saying can’t be done, just that I’d probably wait.
Ziek said it best: “Either way, you have to go through a lot of soggy hay to hit anything good, limiting penetration and making a good blood trail less likely.”
Who cares if your arrow stops in the paunch AFTER you’ve hit all the important stuff?
60# and any arrow over 400grs is going out that bulls chest
This is a good reference thread when guys say “you don’t need more than 70 pounds” or “a 375-400 grain arrow is more than enough” or some variation of Broadhead, bow, arrow setup. If you’re shooting a heavy arrow with lots of momentum, even if you catch a couple inches of ham, you’re burying that arrow.
It’s probably not the shot for a 2” rage on a 425 grain arrow
I may be wrong, but I think Blue should be above the stomach Hitting Liver then Diaphram then lungs arteries and large Veins then brush or dirt.
But if the stomach IS hit first, I agree the proper weight arrow and design BH will drive through the stomach and pass through the front of the bull. A hole in the diaphragm also kills quickly
Even if you were off and went through the front of the rear leg
a 65 lb bow and a well tuned 500-700 grain arrow and BH will go through the front
the Wrong BH and a 400 grain arrow probably would not
At 30 yards I’m taking the shot, inch’s more room for error than the frontal at 20.
And I’m also taking that frontal at 20
Of course not the same as an elk For demonstration purposes Only
A penetration test
A straight flying 1100 grain FMJ 250 5mm arrow from a 75# Mathews Vertix At 30 yards
250 grain Iron Will
Large bag target
Just to the right of the base of the tail
I shoot a 480-500 gr arrow with a 2" vortex. Out of a new hoyt at 70# . If I hit that red or blue dot I'm not sure if he would even run away.....but I know he would die fast.
Said many a guy with a new .338 Mag.
Very similar to a video I took a few years back. I passed on the shot, but not because of angle, but it was an LE unit and I was early in hunt. (25 yards) Sitting on my butt. (He woke me up!)
"Lots of guys liked this shot from the front, frontal shot. Not as many guys like it from this side but the arrow path is almost identical. The light blue is going to come out right where you’d put a frontal shot. Those of you that like the frontal but not this one, why the change of heart?"
The frontal shot doesn't have to angle through ribs and then go through an indeterminate distance of paunch before encountering the vitals. So, not the same arrow path.
I’ve taken that shot on a bull at 11 yards though I was a bit more level. Hit at the yellow dot and it stuck in his off side shoulder. He died in site with in 2 min. Inside 20 I might take it again, at 30 I’m a pass.
Think I would rather wait for him to turn or pass, don't want to punch the gut and ruin the map eat.
Think I would rather wait for him to turn or pass, don't want to punch the gut and ruin the map eat.
I would pass at 30. Take it at 15 or under. Blue dot.
Don't like the angle at all. Wait for him to make another move & hope he offers a better angle, if he doesn't & starts to leave I'd nervous grunt him while at full draw & pin him as he turned to look at the sound! Works like a charm!
ElkNut
I will be at full draw, give a whistle and hope he turns to look. If he doesn't he wins. I have plenty of tag soup recipes and another close encounter story. Doesn't matter if it's first day or last.
The last day of season, he is smelly, all rutted out and wore down, those hams look noticeably small, or he is stage 2 CWD.
Doesn’t look arrow worthy.
If I'm looking for a trophy bull, I'm passing because he's not big enough.
If I'm just looking for venison I'm putting my arrow just low and right of the light blue dot. Then back to camp for my tracking spiders.
I'm hoping I'd pass. But in the heat of the moment, and because I've never shot an elk before, I'd probably make a mistake and take a shot in between yellow, green, blue, purple. Then I'd probably be looking for it the next day hoping I hit something more vital than just one lung.
On quartering away shots I normally try to aim at the opposite side leg as a point of reference. However, that would not work well in this scenario given the distance the arrow would have to go to get to the vitals. I'm aiming at the light blue spot.
Not many here are factoring in that this shot is 5 min before dark on the last day. Looking for a hit bull as you are driving home is hard to do. You need a good group to get this handled. The angle likely will have an entrance hole behind the diaphragm and maybe no exit hole. If you shoot enough bulls you too often find they are not always great bleeders and that is without weather issues. Chance of a deflection off of a rib with some heads or even plain bad luck. Then you have the one lung issue here.
Every one of those dots is a fatal shot (although some will take a while). I like the light blue one the best.
That said, I don't like hard quartered away shots because I like to eat my hearts and I don't like dragging a bunch of crap into the chest or into the offside shoulder.
Between light blue and red. I probably would not take the shot personally, but I might.
For those worried about penetration. . . . a buddy of mine took a follow up shot at a wounded bull with this angle at 44 yards. True, the bull was hurt bad, after two arrows in a single lung, and was not very likely to duck, turn or otherwise react to the shot sound. He was shooting a Mathews Outback at about 60 pounds, with a light arrow, but 125 grain Muzzy. Not shooting very fast or hard. Penetration at this angle at 44 yards was up to the fletchings. Happened to pierce his other lung, and the bull fell over dead pretty quick.
I agree with Midwest 100%.
I'd pass. But if I've learned anything in 20 years here, no such thing as a bad angle and a lot of people will take any shot presented and talk themselves into how it was a good shot but just don't know what happened when it doesn't work out.
What?? Nooooooo! Now you’re just making stuff up...
;)
I’m with Elknut and if he still doesn’t turn he walks and lives and I walk back and head for home
I'd shoot the light blue dot.
I would pass that exact angle, but after I give a quick soft voice grunt , he will turn to look back, opening up the angle and providing a much better shot. Been there and done than a number of times.
