I got my "new to me bow" back from the bow shop a couple of weeks ago. Been shooting field points for a couple weeks and couldn't be happier. Shoots awesome. Today I put broadheads and at 20yds they are hitting 4 inches left and 6 low. Wondering what I need to do to fix the issue. Do I have a bow not in tune? Or is just a matter of adjusting the sight? It's a Elite V37 with a whisker biscuit and Muzzy 3 blade 125's. Thanks. Rusty
Assuming the field tips and broad heads are the same weight, you have a tuning issue. A well tuned bow will group both arrow/head combinations in the same spot at 20 yards.
My suggestion is to read up on bare shaft tuning. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. There are many experienced bow tuners, here.
It could be a few things like fletching contact (with riser - obviously with a biscuit it's a guarantee you'll get fletching contact), your rest isn't exactly lined up to give perfect arrow flight (which the FBBH makes worse), or form issues.
I struggled with this myself. Almost the same set-up - muzzys and a biscuit out of my bowtech experience. Tore through a few targets moving my rest around but could never line it up exact to my FPs. I thought my form was good but I never really knew for certain. I loved my biscuit so I didn't really want to give it up.
Finally had enough and bought a drop away. In a few hours I was squared away and they group fine now. I'm not an advocate for drop aways (I love biscuits), but that was what fixed my issue. I've read it can be done with a biscuit but I just couldn't figure it out.
I'd start by making sure you don't have fletching contact on your riser. If not, then google broadhead tuning - some good charts to reference which ways to move the rest. If/when that happens, you won't need to move the rest much. A small change can go a long way.
With that said, there are some much better and more experienced guys on here that I'm sure will chime in. But that was my experience.
Start by raising your rest a touch, then see, should still be hitting left, now move your rest right a touch. You might be over spined. I use muzzys for broadhead tuning, then switch to exodus
Don’t listen to cnelk. Muzzys fly fine. Been shooting them for over 15 years, Hundreds and hundreds of shots taken and can get them to hit exactly with field tips. My dad is the same. Cnelk has much good to say most times. Lol
Thanks guys. GG, that's what I have always thought. That if they weren't hitting the same, bow needs tuned. Cnelk, are you serious about the Muzzys? I am in no way married to the muzzys. If another BH would fix it. I would be all over it
4" left and 6" low at 20 yards is NOT due to the type of broad heads Rusty is using.
Rusty, try this. Strip the fletching off of one of your field tipped arrows. Shoot 2 fletched arrows, then shoot the non-fletched arrow. You want to adjust for any up/down difference in impact, first. If the non-fletched arrow impacts lower than the fletched arrow, either raise your rest slightly or lower your nocking point slightly. Vice versa if the non-fletched arrow impacts high.
Once you get the up/down impacts the same, then you can work on the side to side impacts. This is where it gets a little tricky with a Whisker Biscuit, in my experience. The normal rules are often opposite with a WB. A little trial by error may be necessary. Make VERY SLIGHT left or right adjustments to your rest. If the groups improve (get closer together) make another tiny move in that direction until the fletched and non-fletched arrows are grouping in the same spot at the same angle. Then adjust your sight accordingly.
Be aware that the wrong spined arrows may never allow your bare shafts to group with your fletched arrows side to side. If the bare shaft continues to group left, no matter what adjustments you make, your arrow may be a bit too stiff. Adding weight to the head, or length to the shaft will soften the spine. Vice versa for right bare shaft impacts.
This all assumes you are shooting right handed. Hope this helps.
Muzzy and thunderheads need to go to the retirement home. Yep, they’ve both killed a lot of critters....so has obsidian. They’re possibly the most finicky flying Broadheads currently made. Try a pack of exodus or Magnus hornets.
Ground Hunter, when I bought the bow I took it to a archery shop in Wichita,Ks. Heard great things about them. They put new mods on to get draw length for me. And new string and cable. I left them one of my arrows so they could tune it. So its tuned (as far as I know, which isn't very far). Shooting a B3 "claw" release with d loop. Carcus, I didn't think about the spine. I am at 70lbs, 28.5 in arrow, 125 gr head. Shooting 300 spine, wondering if I need the 340. If it is the spine, will moving the rest fix the issue or just bandaid it?
Man, I started shooting Muzzys 20 years ago. Struggled with exactly what is being explained above. That is until I switched to SlickTrick 10 years ago.
Started with spinning your arrows with broadhead, if they spin true and assuming your shop tuned properly. I then would start moving your rest like 1/32-1/64 of a inch at a time. Broadhead low move rest up. Broadheads shooting left move right. Don't do both at the same time. Get them shooting up down together first then move to left right. Last thing or I guess first thing mark were you start off on your rest in case things go haywire you can set to were you started.
I have only had one broadhead I could not get to shoot with field tips and that was Muzzy MX4s, that was a long time ago. With that said they can't suck too bad or Muzzy would not have sold the numbers they have.
Assuming your bow is properly tuned, you need to sight in with your broadheads. If your field points are the same weight, they should hit the same spot as the broedheads.
You can go to www.bowtuningtips.com to find a good explanation of this method as well as close to 100 other useful tips.
WW video is what I was saying above. One thing the video did not show. Is when you get field tips and broadheads hitting together your pins will be off. Don't just get your broadheads hitting the bulleye. Get field point and broadheads hitting the same place. Once you do that, then move whole sight to get sighted back in. If you get one distance correct your other pins should be good to go. One more thing once you get it right at 20 yards fine tune at further distances. I would do it to your max distance you would shoot at a animal.
I would ignore the part about indexing your felching to broadheads. My guess that was to plug the FOBs he was shooting. I personally think the FOB's are a joke.
Ok. Stripped fletch of an arrow. 20yds. Shot 3 fletched arrows. Looked like they flew like darts and hit perfect. THEN, shot the bare shaft. HOLY CRAP! Looked like a drunk side winder. And ends up about 2in low and 7in left, sticking in at a hard right to left angle.
Going to have to give a break for a while, fatigue is setting in. 20 yd groups are widening out to 4in. Bareshaft and fletched are hitting the same horizontally. Almost the same side to side. I am moving the rest to the left to get them closer. Both arrows move to the left when I move the rest to the left. The fletched arrows just move farther. It seems they have hit a stalemate at around 1-2 inches from grouping bare and fletched. I have moved the rest about 1/8 inch left of where it was. The fletched arrows are sticking in the target straight. Bare is still in at a hard right to left angle
When you get back after it, try taking exactly one turn out of both limbs. If the groups and angles improve, your spine is a little too stiff. If that doesn't help, we may be dealing with cam lean, or a poor grip/form.
Don't worry, we'll get you there. 2" left isn't awful by any means. The hard angle of the bare shaft is what still concerns me. You are very close. Stick with me for a little while longer.
Ok. I feel like they are grouping together fairly good. The arrows are hitting about 6in high left of where they were when I started. I just nocked an arrow and noticed it is NOT pointing straight out the front of my bow. The arrow is pionted out to the left.
The eyeballl center shot test means little. Don't worry about it.
Also, don't worry about where the arrows are hitting right now. All we are looking for is groups. When we get your bow tuned, a simple sight adjustment will have you hitting bullseyes with either field tips or broad heads.
I could get you dialed in but man guys got you spinning and moving and twisting lol. The first thing you need to do with an Elite binary system is ensure the cams are timed. That is likely the up and down issue. Put it in a draw board and insure the draw stops are hitting the limbs at the same time. If they aren’t a twist or two in the control cable will bring them in time. The left and right difference can be taken out by micro adjustments of your rest. Your spine and everything else is good. Time cams, set center shot, and nock level arrow through the Berger hole. You will be close.
I had them grouping good, or the best I could. Then pulled one turn out of each limb bolt. Now bareshaft shooting 4in lower than fletched. On the verge of spear chucking this POS in the driveway and running it over
Every archer should learn how to tune their own bow, IMO. It’s a fundamental part of the game. Their aren’t many archery shops in the wilderness, when you have a mishap and cut a string or knock your rest out of alignment. But then, I change the oil in my pickup myself too.
Rusty, you were at it for only one afternoon, and got very close. Don’t give up now.
"I had them grouping good, or the best I could. Then pulled one turn out of each limb bolt. Now bareshaft shooting 4in lower than fletched. On the verge of spear chucking this POS in the driveway and running it over" Do that then get a tunable bow, like a bowtech with yokes or even better the new deadlock system! I hated trying to tune my elites, I owned 4 of them, never could get them tuned. The new elite kure might be better as you can move the limb pockets Right now I am in the process of trying to tune my vxr 31.5, its looking like the top hats will have to be moved and more than likely I will have to get some different sizes of top hats, with the my bowtech just turn a screw and tuned
first things first. id check for paper tune first. then id check arrows and spin test broadheads. i killed my first elk with a Muzzy. i later found out that i am lucky to get 2 out of 3 to spin true. i was also having issues with broadheads v field tip flight. i changed to a different head that spins true 99.999999% of the time. i think I've only had 1 that didn't spin true. unfortunately they stopped making my beloved RazorTricks
Good morning, Rusty. I hope you've awoken with renewed determination to get your bow tuned properly.
There are only a few things that will cause left or right bareshaft impacts. The most common is either a too weak or too stiffly spined arrow. A left impact usually indicates a slightly stiff arrow. So, I gave you some bad advise, yesterday. Instead of taking one turn out of your limbs, I should have had you put one turn more to your limbs. The additional poundage should offset the slightly stiff spine. So, return the limbs to the previous poundage, then add a turn, if you have that much adjustment left in the limb bolts. Try that and see if the bareshaft impact improves.
The second most common reason for left/right bareshaft impacts is poor shooter form. If you squeeze your grip like you're choking a chicken, you are applying torque to the riser, and that will kick the arrow left or right at launch. Also, if your bow arm is fully extended and your elbow is locked at full draw, that will also create unwanted torque at launch. Your bow arm should be slightly bent at the elbow at full draw. That allows your bow to recoil, or follow-thru, towards the target, as it should. With a fully extended and locked bow arm, the only way the bow can follow-thru is to the left (right-handed shooter).
And the last common reason for left/right bareshaft impacts is poor nock travel. This is usually caused by a mechanical problem with the bow. It can be excessive cam lean, a worn out bearing, or bent cam axle, a weakened limb, or a crooked limb pocket. Any of these conditions will likely require a shop technician's help to address.
Happy tuning, my friend. Let us know how things go.
I haven't read through all the posts, but if you are shooting an Elite and having tuning problems, you should really take it to a tech who has experience dealing with the Elite shims. For whatever reason, quite a few of the Elites (my Ritual 35 included) do not have the shims set up properly. I paper tuned mine and had some wild tears I couldn't get out until we pressed the bow and got the shim combination right, top and bottom. Now it shoots bullet holes. It will take you an hour tops to fix it with the right help.
Update. One turn back down on the limbs is maxed out (literally bottomed out). Adjusted rest to get bare shaft shooting with fletched. To do this, it has my WB as far to the left it can go (adjustment wise). So, fixed that issue. Which now created another. Next I tried to use the sight to bring the group back to the right. Well, the sight wont move far enough left to get arrows back to where I am aiming. Urr!
I hate to say it, Rusty, but it sounds like you have a form/grip problem, or there's a mechanical problem with your bow. You should never have to move the rest or sights to the outer limits of their adjustment range.
At this point, either you can post a video of you shooting, and perhaps we can spot a problem in your form or bow, or you can seek help at a shop. If I lived closer to you, I'd come over and help you.
Your arrows shouldn’t point way out to the left when the bow is relaxed. Center shot needs to be ballpark. It’s time to go to a pro shop and have someone else shoot it. That’ll tell you if it’s grip or the bow.
And just to make you feel a little better I had the same issue this year. Shooting fp to 100. Put on Broadheads and they were 6” left at 40. I messed around for 3 days. Took it to a pro shop and he got the same tear in paper. It ended up needing to be shimmed. Now it’s lights out.
A quick search shows an unusually high number of cases of excessive cam lean with the Elite Victory bows. Especially the bottom cam. Rusty, I would love to see a picture of your cams at rest and at full draw, if you get a chance.
Update. My brother came over to shoot. He can shoot a group in the same spot I can with BS,BH and FP. But the BS flies like crap. When I move the sight back to where it cam from the bow shop. My group dissapeared. BS and BH go way left. When my brother shoots it, his groups perfect. And the BS looks like it flies a lot better. No matter where the rest is. He can group them. I can only group them in one spot. And where that is, my sight wont adjust far enough to hit right. So, in conclusion. My grip isn't right.
I agree as well. My bow shoots Slick Trick Standards perfect but if I put on an Exodus at 1 1/4” wide they aren’t as accurate as my Tricks. I’m thinking mess with the rest a bit to tune. Also throw away those Muzzys why shoot old school aluminum when their are steel ferrules out there that won’t bend.
If Rusty gets his bow and shooting form tuned properly, it shouldn't matter what broad head he sticks on the end of his arrows. As long as they weigh the same as his field tips, and spin true, his arrows should group in the same place at 20 yards. At longer yardage, there might be some minor differences between broad heads, but not at 20.
Nope. You have way too much pad on there. It needs to stay on your thumb pad. It shouldn’t cross the line that goes between your palm pad and the rest of your palm.
Funny the muzzy comments on here. Throw the muzzy and shoot something better/more advanced/ blah blah when from some of the same people they say why update camo from old school to Sitka or whatever. Lol. The irony is hilarious.
Other than all that funny business of the Broadhead debate, this thread has been helpful in tuning and grip placement and such. Thankful for the knowledge shared on this site.
Your second grip pic is better, but you still have too much tension in your hand. Notice how relaxed the hand looks in John's pics? His thumb is straight and relaxed, as is the rest of his fingers. The only thing that should prevent your bow from jumping out of your hand is your wrist strap. It will take some practice to get used to, but the payoff will be big.
How about your bow arm? Do you have a slight bend in your elbow at full draw (you should), or is your bow arm fully extended with a locked elbow (a no-no)?
String, there’s no debate that some Broadheads are more forgiving than others. Just like some bows are more forgiving than others. It has been proven over and over again. Go on YouTube and search a Broadhead test with muzzy in the title. You won’t find many positive things about their flight or durability.
"The bare shaft flying straight is what you want, not necessarily hitting the same spot as the field point."
I respectfully disagree. At 20 yards his bare shaft should group with his field tips and enter the target at the same angle. I can shoot a bareshaft out to 40 yards and they still group with my field tips, or broad heads, or small game heads. In fact, I used to mess with guys heads at 3D shoots that way. If I shot first in the group, and the target was under 40 yards, I'd occasionally shoot a bare shaft, so that the other shooters didn't have a bright set of fletchings to aim at. ;-)
Uscdryder- I agree with you. No doubt Muzzys are not the greatest, but neither is the old school camo or “regular” granola bars many on here debate in favor of Over Sitka/Kuiu/etc or mountain ops bars (recent thread). I’m just pointing out the irony.
I shoot muzzy because they fly great with my set up (4 different bows) and consistently kill elk just as good with them as any other head I’ve shot.
Uscdryder- I agree with you. No doubt Muzzys are not the greatest, but neither is the old school camo or “regular” granola bars many on here debate in favor of Over Sitka/Kuiu/etc or mountain ops bars (recent thread). I’m just pointing out the irony.
I shoot muzzy because they fly great with my set up (4 different bows) and consistently kill elk just as good with them as any other head I’ve shot.
I guess I don’t get your point. There’s a guy with a tuned bow, confirmed by someone else, that is having trouble grouping Broadheads and a couple of people recommended finding heads that are more forgiving to hand torque. Heck, Brad even offered to send him one for free! Anyway, carry on...
Back from a long weekend away... I missed out on the kind of thread I was made for...
Sling is way too tight! It's not a rifle sling, it's only purpose is to catch your bow if it flies out of your hand. With that Elite, that'll never happen. Also, don't wrap your hand so far around the grip. Just let your fingers lay limp.
Nope. You have way too much pad on there. It needs to stay on your thumb pad. It shouldn’t cross the line that goes between your palm pad and the rest of your palm.
Had someone tell me to try a slick cotton glove. Well got one and gave it a try. BH is the middle fletched arrow. 1in to the left and right of it is FP. Then 2in left of the BH is the BS FP. Group got WAY better. But BS is in at a pretty hard angle.
Well get rid of the Muzzys and you might get even better than that! Lol. Study’s show they aren’t up to par! Lol. Glad you are making progress. Nice shooting there
Did you get the center shot and sight back to reasonable positions?
Step back to 40 and see if your FP and BH still group together. If so, crack a beer and call it a day. You probably won't get the BS to fly any better until you get completely comfortable with your new grip. Or, get rid of the WB and get a drop-away. That would help minimize the affects of grip torque.
Couple things.... first, if you're rest is set visibly way off of centershot or near it's limits, something is really wrong. Always been best IMO to hit the reset button and go back to square one, start over. Make sure bow is TIMED to factory specs. I'm not familiar with Elite bows at all, but every spec they consider essential. Could be cam stops synced, ATA or brace.... whatever they say is important. Start over, set the rest down the pipe and a curly hair tail high. Work your tuning from there. If it's getting very far outside that initial set, something is very wrong and needs to be corrected. Cam lean (Lord, I love yoke systems....) I've seen limb twist and even bent risers. Form, contact.... Lots of things can go wrong.
Secondly, Whisker Biscuits are good rests but have their quarks, as all full contact rests can. One being if they are off very far they can "bounce" the arrow the other way and lead the tuner to adjust things in the opposite way they should be, making things even worse as they keep following it out to the end of their adjustments. See above. Start over with things set down the pipe. if an adjustment isn't having the effect you think it should..... move it the opposite way and try it. WB can drive you crazy in that regard.
Thirdly (yeah, yeah, I know I said a couple things.....) You can get a good tune bareshafting, but IMO it's not the best method for a WB as you are changing things up with fletch contact. In fact you likely won't catch a fletch contact issue with any rest bareshafting. It's a good method, just a personal preference, I like to get things close with paper (yoke tuning is great for this) and finish up broadhead tuning. But everybody has their favorites. And WRT to spine.... as with many things in life, you really can't be too stiff.... but not stiff enough can create issues.....
Regardless of the method, at tuned bow will shoot any straight spinning head of similar weights just fine. Right now I think I have 3 different heads in my quiver. I'd shoot any of em at most anything.
Or failing all that, do what many here seem to advance..... essentially just screw on a mech and fuhgeddaboudit.... =D
From what you said (low and left) i would get it retuned.
Recently I stumble up on a "walk back tune, aka french tune"
Check it out, doesn't sound like your situation since it usually doesn't involve height issues only left or right. I thought I was having the issue as I was sighting in my farther pins with field tips. Turned out it was just me shaking off the rust from not having shot in a while.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCiTPJrCNA8 a good video on the matter
(personally I have never had my broadheads not in the same spots as my field tips.)
Lots of good advice here, and some not so good, not going to reinvent the wheel, but you have to be consistent enough to know if it's you or the bow. Once you work on your grip,( and do tuck two fingers up, like someone mentioned), recheck the bareshaft. I think the case is, you have to shim the cams over some. I have a very decent grip ( IMO ) and have had a to shim 2 out of 3 binary cam bows. Just the nature of the beast. Once you get it shimmed correctly, they hold a tune better than most.
It's a variable issue, lots of things can cause poor BS flight ( incorrect DL, stance, release arm elbow position etc..) but if the bow needs to be shimmed, you can't make it work without shimming. Find a good shop to help you.
Bareshafts tell the truth. Once you can shoot 30 yds with a BS and it hits straight, then you can even shoot muzzy BH's with a good chance of success. ;)
Lol. Great thread. Sorry I missed it, but almost more fun to read straight through. Loved the muzzy assault--i too have some 15 year old muzzy in the "won't fly like FP pile", then I realized my bow wasn't tuned as well as it could be and I wasn't was as consistent as I thought I was because I rarely shot my broadheads. So I learned to tune my bow, like GG walked him through. And I read until I realized that any broadhead not flying was creating more drag and my fletching was not creating more drag than that. Now I tune and fletch and just need to learn to shoot more consistently, so I'll have to talk to my boss about that issue, cause that takes time. If you don't have a proshop in your backyard then you must know how to do basic bow maintenance and tuning. I could own a bowpress for the price of the pile the muzzys are sitting in.
Pro-tip from YouTube learning, always learn about 3 steps beyond what you think you're trying to learn cause you'll realize there's a little more involved than you initially thought, but you'll also realize you're totally capable. Good luck this season!
UPDATE. Just got back from the pro shop. 2 hrs drive one way. The guy was awesome. I did get rid of the WB. Went with the Elite QAD ultra rest HDX. He said main problem was nock too high, and d-loop too tight on nock. After putting on rest and setting bow to spec. Took 9 arrows to get it bareshaft tuned till he was happy. He then asked if I brought my BH with me so we could shoot them. I didn't, so I picked up 2 packs of 125gr Slick Tricks. Went to their 20yd range. Shot a 3 shot field point fletched group, perfect. Then shot a single fletched broadhead 3 different times, exact same spot. So all is good. Then he said "now for the bareshaft". WOW, right in the middle of them. AND sticking out of the target at the exact same angle, which is straight back. Ready to get all dialed back in. He said my grip isn't horribly bad. He said, just shoot more.
A good pro shop is worth it’s weight in gold. I do all my own tuning and every once in a while I’ll get stumped to the point I make the drive to the shop! Glad you were able to buy something from them as well! Now shoot a few from 40-60 yards and confirm everything is good.
Oh, and forgot. The string was hitting the VERY edge of the string stop. He spun it around so the string hits it in the middle. And I tried to patronize them them the most I could. Bought some quick fletch and a field point pocket clip quiver. Spent $320 with them.
KsR, this stuff can be humbling at times! Glad you got it all straightened out. Sounds like you’ve got a shop that is willing and knowledgeable, and when you drop some coin after a job well done, they’ll continue to be in the future! Get that thing dialed and go kill some critters!
"Oh, and forgot. The string was hitting the VERY edge of the string stop. He spun it around so the string hits it in the middle. And I tried to patronize them them the most I could. Bought some quick fletch and a field point pocket clip quiver. Spent $320 with them."
You make for a $#!++y liberal
Kidding. Glad you got it worked out and sounds like you found a reputable shop to work with.
Good for you! Glad to hear things are working out. Yes a good pro is priceless. There are things that are obvious to a good pro in person that will take forever, and may never be diagnosed on the internet.
