After 2 scouting trips in the trophy elk unit I drew, I've realized I'm not too good at field judging elk antlers. I can usually guess a Mule deer's rack within a few inches, but I haven't hunted enough giant bull elk to get a feel for judging their antlers. I've always said if the bull looks like he can scratch his butt with his antlers, he's a big bull.
Now that I have the opportunity to actually chase some trophy bulls, I want to hone my field judging abilities. Any tips and/or pics of giant bulls, and what they scored, would be most appreciated. I know I could just do a Google image search, but I thought it would fun to hear from fellow bow hunters about how they field judge elk antlers.
I'll start with a pic of a bull that my buddy sent to me. What do you think he'd score, and why? To me, he lacks the width and mass to push him towards 400". I'd put him in the 370" range. What say you?
Try and get good at measuring the first 3 points. You wont kill a huge bull if the fronts are BIG. We use this method: add points on one side then double those and then add 200" for beam length, mass, width. This only works on big heavy bulls. Might only be 150-175 on thinner horns or shorter main beams. Example: if all 5 points on one side are 15" that equals 75", mulitply by 2X for the other side gives you 150 then add 200 for a 350" bull. Not a pic, but hope it helps.
I wouldn't have guessed that Arizona bull would have scored 400". Yes, the Chuck Adams pose makes him look HUGE, but his 3rds aren't what I'd expect from a 400" bull. Perhaps his 4ths make up for that.
My friend got a 368” bull and we thought it was a lot smaller than that. What really fooled us was the body was so massive it made the horns look smaller. His beams were just over 50” but his mass was amazing. I have big hands but could not touch fingers on any part of the beam even between the 4th and 5th points. Good luck
I'd like to know the official score on that Arizona bull, doesn't look like 400+ to me, however judging by pics is clearly not my strong suit. This bull found dead goes 367 and change officially.
I know a couple Bowsiters and one other friend who have taken scored 400" bulls and have photos, but I'm not at liberty to post them. What I will say is that in each case, the rack configuration is different but there will be several factors that are truly "WOW!" compared to a really nice 350-360 bull.
Matt, assuming that bull is in velvet, I would guess him in the low 370s. Great bottoms, average tops (for that area), doesn't have the width or mass, as you judged.
Surprised by that Arizona score, was it with velvet ? Goes to show pics never do them justice. The huge bulls I've see or held all had either extreme mass or very long tines and long main beams and width. cnelk did he have a left foot or leg injury ? Wondering about those shorter fronts on the right side.
Lou, he is in velvet, and I agree, width and mass are the only thing he lacks to push 400". As a side note, I think I've found that same bull this year. His 5ths and 6ths aren't quite as long this year, perhaps due to lack of vegetation from the drought conditions, but everything else is almost identical.
job(CO), that bull would have fooled me. I would have guessed a bit higher gross with all the extra stuff going on.
LOL @ Cnelk!! JohnMC's pic is more representative of the 15 bulls Ive killed with my bow. ;-)
Thanks for all the responses so far, gentlemen. If you can't already tell, I'm like a cat on a hot tin roof right now. September can't come soon enough for me.
Matt, Agreed. When I shot him I guessed him at 370ish. The extra points and 59" beams give him the big gross score. He is 386 4/8 net. In all honesty there was big 6x6 that I was orginally after that had more wow factor, but this guy showed up and there was no way I wasnt shooting.
Perhaps this picture of the Arizona bull will convince you that it's bigger than it appears from the "Chuck Adams" photo? It was killed by a special (365 days per year) hunter in the unit I have a tag in a few weeks. Another special tag hunter also wounded and lost a huge bull, and two more special tag hunters have been added to the mix this week. Always nice to wait for years and years to draw a tag, just to have the top end bulls killed off by special tag hunters. I'm NOT a fan of special tags, for the most part because I don't feel they should be allowed to hunt before the draw hunters and certainly not 365 days per year.
This is not always easy and the curve of the brow tines can mess you up, but we always went by “end of the nose” is 16-17” and to get a bull to 380+, you must average 17” per point (so like the math above, 17x6x2 + 200ish = gold). So, if brown tines are close to nose and rest of the rack is at least as big as the brows, it’s a bull of a lifetime.
FWIW....this video was posted in Jan of this year so I'm guessing it was taken last year?? Lee T. shot this one in Colorado with a ML. Don't know how big it is...but it looks very big in the video.
Apparently this bull was shot by one of those long range rifle hunters, a 1,000 yd plus shot. Hunting with a guide on national forest here in Montana. He thought he had missed and didn't follow up when the elk went over the ridge. It was found by a mushroom picker the following spring.
Irishman, that's the most impressive bull posted yet, IMO. The circumstances of his death are a shame.
I like the "end of nose" measuring technique, Welka. I had heard something like that years ago from a taxidermist, but I'd forgotten the specifics. Thanks.
I wonder how often that happens with long range rifles. Often you’re hiking down and up the next canyon. That’s a long way to walk if you’re “sure” you missed. I hope that was the mushroom hunter. Zero chance I’d give that “hunter” the rack back.
I've often heard that the 3rds are where many exceptional bulls fall a bit short on score. Several of the bulls I've found scouting seem to demonstrate that characteristic. They've got everything else, but their 3rds are weak. Have you guys noticed the same?
That ND state record typical has short G1s. I'd pass, lol!
UCSD, I suspect it happens often. In the ranch where I used to guide rifle hunters, we would go back in the summer and occasionally find deadheads 30 yards back in the timber behind bald ridges. Once one of my hunters ignored my instructions not to shoot, took an 800 yard shot, and was really pissed when I made him climb down the valley and up the other side to check for blood.
After two other guys opened up on a herd at close to 1000 yards while I was screaming at them to stop, wounded several, killed a calf (they had bull tags) I decided guiding rifle hunters wasn't for me. All this outfitter cared about was the money.
Those bulls above were both taken the first year the season opened outside Theodore Roosevelt National Park. They had plenty of years to get big. There are some legit 400's running around the Badlands however. I scored this one at 374 3/8 NET with the broken RH 4th point.
Nevada 437 that was killed the second day of the archery season right in front of us by a rifle hunter with one of the go anywhere anytime heritage tags - he shows up at 2:00mins
A wyoming general area giant that I believe would make the mark - just wait for it at 30 seconds :)
Both videos are breath-taking. Thanks! It really helps me to see these caliber bulls on the hoof. The hero shots can be very deceiving, but when you see these bulls up and moving around, it puts their antler size in better perspective for me. The top end bulls also seem to have a different demeanor about them. Like they know they are the baddest a$$ in the woods.
Those monster Arizona bulls all seem to have similar characteristics. The long massive tops almost make the bottoms look small in comparison. Awesome bulls!
When you are out in that area, make sure to swing by the Meeker Hotel. There are some giant bulls on the walls there that are worth looking at up close and personal...
I've been in the Meeker Hotel many times. I used to hunt on privately landlocked BLM that is about 20 minutes from Meeker. Every year we'd make a point of stopping in and staring at the mounts in the Hotel.
Altitude Sick, my goal is a 350" or better. That seems like a realistic bar based on what I've seen so far. Whether it's deer or elk, I've always preferred mass over length or width. So, if I find a massive old bull that may not score that well, I'll be plenty happy with him, too.
After seeing all these pics and videos on this thread, I don't think I've found a legit 400" bull, yet. There is one that may be close, that I call "Daggers" because of his super long 4ths, but I think his bottoms may lack the length for 400". It's nice to dream, though.
I agree, it's very exciting. On my last scouting trip, I found a group of 8 bulls that were all much larger than any bull I've ever had a chance at. I just hope I don't get an early itchy trigger finger. I can hunt the entire season if I want, and I think the rut is going to be insane up there, so I really want to hold off and experience that.
I think 350 in that unit is a realistic target for someone with your experience. In all our camming and glassing before season, we only saw a couple we believed would honestly score at that level. Lots with big tops and weak bottoms or vice versa. Based on that, I lowered my expectations a little (it was a severe drought year). Since we killed both our bulls in the first six days, I still wonder what we may have found if we'd been more patient. But 350+ bulls in the hand.....
During your drought year, did you notice a lot of bulls that seemed to be underdeveloped on the tops? I've seen several nice 6x6 bulls that carry good length and mass thru their 4ths, but the 5ths and 6ths are short. I was wondering if that could be due to lack of nutrition during the latter part of the antler growing season.
GG, I heard a podcast, I believe it was Jay Scott, and he was with Steve Ward I believe and they were saying a drought could impact horns by up to 30”. Bulls they had seen the year before were 30” smaller than the year before type deal.
I saw this bull the night after punching my tag on a 311" net bull. He was archery shot 5 days later and grossed 405" and Net 396 4/8". Basically an almost perfect 7x7. Unfortunately the hunter who shot this bull was a friend and about 2 months ago felt depressed and ended his own life so I post this in memoriam of "Mike". RIP.
Matt, yes, we did see quite a bit of that. But Tom's bull had huge tops, sort of "weak" bottoms (for a bull that grossed 368). Mine has great balance and symmetry all the way through.
As I said, Paul, I've stared at those Meeker Hotel mounts many times. I always loved the one with the palmated top on his left side. They have some impressive Mulie bucks, too.
John, I've believed precipitation and nutrition plays a big part in antler growth for years. I've seen big Mulie bucks lose at least 10" during drought years. 30" seems like a lot to me, however, but I guess that's less than 10% of the total on a big bull, so it's believable.
Now that we are into the first week of August, how much additional growth would you expect on an elk rack before they become hard horned? 5%.....more? less?
Saw some cedars all beat up last week where there were several bull groups up in 2. They are already starting to rub out, particularly the older ones. Seems like the older ones are the first to get ready for the rut...
I have only seen one elk that was a 400 incher. Took a picture of him standing next to a fence and after having the picture developed went back and measured the fence post he was standing next to. Using that as a reference was able to tell it was about 400 inches.
However I did not need to measure him when I saw him in the wild. He was just awe inspiring. I kept muttering under my breath, wow,wow. He had about 30 cows with him so they must have been impressed too. No tag, so he was safe from me.
If you see a 400 bull in the wild, you will know it.
I'm making an exception to my "no pic posting" policy, for the sake of continuing this thread.
This is a bull I hope to get a closer look at this weekend ( pic taken thru my spotter from about 2 miles away). Even with my spotter cranked up to 60X, I couldn't tell specifics about his antlers. All I know is he dwarfed the other nice bulls he was hanging with, both in body and antler size. Thoughts?
I don't have any pictures to share but I've seen two 400+ bulls in the wild. One in NV after I was done hunting and killed a much smaller bull. Then another on day 2 of a hunt in Unit 13 in NM in 2007. The NM bull had a huge herd of 100 or so cows along with at least two satellite bulls that were 350 class animals. When I saw the 400+ bull pushing cows up a fence line I about crapped myself. A few seconds later, the bull hung up behind a cedar 45 yards out and then shortly after that the herd blew out due to changing winds. I got a real good look at the bull on his way out and starting shaking. My guide was also shaking.
All I can say is when you see one, there's zero question what you're looking at.
Yeah, it's tough to tell exactly what he has for antlers. The thing that jumped out at me was how big his body was compared to the nice bulls in the foreground, who were much closer to me. He looked like Shaq standing amongst normal sized people. That bull intrigues me.
The photo is just fuzzy enough that I can't tell for sure, but if what I am seeing if his left third (and if the right side matches it) , he's got a chance....but my gut guess is 380-390
The other thing I noticed about Shaq was he's definitely the large man in charge of the other bulls he was with. Every time he got close to one of the lesser bulls, they'd turn and submissively slink away. At one point, 2 of the other bulls were playfully sparring. Shaq walked over, as if wanting to get in the game, and the 2 bulls immediately stopped sparring and trotted away. They didn't want any piece of Shaq. LOL!
Thanks for confirming what I was seeing, guys. I hope Shaq stays in the same area, because it wouldn't be an awful pack out, if I was lucky enough to kill him. And I agree, he didn't get that big by being stupid. From my experience from chasing big Mulies, the biggest boys often have some remote sanctuary they retreat to during the hunting season. They opt for safety over participating heavily in the rut in more hunter accessible areas. Maybe I can get on him early enough, before his survival instincts kick into high gear. If not, there are plenty of other outstanding bulls to chase up there. I'm a pig in sh!t right now. ;-)
He's got a lot of time to go to his safe space. If you don't kill him before he switched on then think of any borders to private, or inaccessible land with cows on it. That's where he will be.
He might be good at surviving. But he's still got testosterone coursing through him. Women ruin us all.
I think I know the private sanctuary he goes to. If so, and he continues to go there, he’ll probably die of old age rather than an arrow or bullet. My only chance at him will be early, when he’s still hanging with his butt buddies.
Places like that are a blessing for them. That's how they get how they are. I hope you slip one through his lungs if you decide to pursue him. Seems to be a worthy adversary to me. Good luck, brother!
Knowing that I'd probably have to target Shaq very early in the season to have a chance at him presents an interesting dilemma for me. Would I rather kill a true monster in the first few days of the hunt and be done, or have a prolonged experience of a once in a lifetime hunt and kill a very respectable bull later on in the season? Hmmm....
The quest or the kill, what's more important to you guys?
"Don’t put any pressure on yourself. Live in the moment, have no regrets about your decisions. Enjoy the little things."
That's great advice, Thomas. I've been guilty of putting too much pressure on myself on special hunts in the past. I was so obsessed with finding and killing the biggest animal in the area, that I rarely stopped to smell the roses along the way. Hopefully I've gained a bit of wisdom from age, and I won't do that to myself on this hunt. I really want this hunt to be the cake, and the kill to be the optional icing. I think knowing I can hunt the entire season, if I want or need to, will help along those lines.
I was doing some scouting this weekend and passed through Meeker today to glance at the aforementioned bulls (the Meeker Hotel Treeline mentioned). From left to right, they net scored 446, 391, and 447. Great place
Looking for photo's of 400" bulls? The Pope and Young records show photos of the top 10 typical elk ever killed. I think only 9 of them scored above 400". The thing that stands out is the length of their tines. Unlikely to ever see one alive. Grey Ghost, looks like your bull has at least 7 points. I don't know what the expectations are for your trophy unit, but I can't imagine there are many bigger bulls in it, especially since he looks so much bigger than the other bulls. A huge body can definitely make the antlers look smaller.
As Royboy noted in his post above some of these giants have such large bodies it gives a diminished perspective of their massive racks. Several in camp had seen this bull , one while he was fighting a bull of equal size, and all put him at 360-370. When I saw him my first thought was that as well. He grossed 408 3/8 with the SCI scorer and 402 5/8 by B&C. His tops not that impressive but all six of his fronts exactly 20 inches, 50 inches wide and 57 inch main beams. Public land bull on a premium draw tag , would have been happy with a 320 til I saw him and got lucky. Hunted the Mescalero once and told by my guide that big thirds are often the difference between the really big and the giants. I took it for what it’s worth. Killed a bull there that scored 375 that lookEd bigger than the bull pictured here because his tops were so much bigger. But his fronts were not nearly this big and he wasn’t as wide. Also, body not as big. For me I get wowed by tops,Both elk and whitetails , and misjudge them because of it. Besides I get excited and wouldn’t even think of body size. Heck , If I kill a 310 in NM this year I’ll get excited as hell. Too old to get get too picky anymore.
NW CO doesn't have many really wide bulls in my somewhat limited experience, only having hunted it 4 times. My 377" gross bull had 56" main beams but was only 38" wide spread and was a tank. My other nice bull from up there was only 34" wide inside spread. Definitely hurts the score when they are narrow, but they are great looking elk anyway.
I am always wowed by the Royals and whale tale of a big bull.....but the first thing that I always look at is the thirds......I don't think that I have ever seen a 390+" bull that didn't have extraordinary thirds....
Kurt, yes, we saw quite a few bulls in that unit with long main beams but very narrow spreads. I saw one whopper that was a WOW bull until he turned straight on. I bet he wasn't more than 30" wide. OTOH, mine had 53" beams and was 50" wide, so you never know.
glidingindian, the bottoms of your bull are exceptional. And I love the forked 4ths on your bull, Willieboat.
I took my young hunting buddy scouting with me last weekend. I'm not sure what I enjoyed more...seeing over fifty 300"-plus bulls in a day and a half, or watching his reactions to seeing all those big bulls. What a great time we had.
We found Shaq, but once again, he was too far out for clear pics. He and his buddies have been very predictable, and I didn't want to risk pressuring him by getting any closer, so we settled for just watching him from afar. He's definitely one of my target bulls.
Above is one of the better pics we got last weekend. I never thought I'd look at a bull like that and shrug it off as just another solid but not exceptional bull. This place is truly special.
Here's a pic from a while back. I ran into this bull alive on an Arizona archery hunt in the late '90s --- unfortunately, he disappeared on me. Found him during the next year's archery season (he'd been dead for 2.5 days, liver shot by a guy who gave up looking for him). Would have been the new P&Y world record at that time if he'd been recovered --- 426 6/8 gross, 411 2/8 net (typical 6x7). Both main beams 61" with 48.5" inside spread. Entered bull into B&C as pick-up (he deserved recognition for living) --- #13 B&C all-time typical at that time. Some 20+ years later he's still about #25 or so. You'll know it's a really big bull when you see him --- you'll shake in your boots ...
Kurt- I didn’t post the other bull pic because I caved to pressure and shot him with a rifle. I think it was 1997 and a guy couldn’t make it to the Mescalero so I got his spot, discounted as I recall. They had just stated bow hunting and had 4 previous archery hunters, all wounded. When I showed up with my recurve ( (Black Widow) they were pretty uncomfortable and said so. Said they wouldn’t have allowed me to come if they had known. I passed a couple great bulls and they assumed I wasn’t confident. Hell, I was looking for something exceptional because I had never been to a place like that. My buddy had killed 2 booners there On day 4 of a 5 day hunt they asked me to shoot the guides rifle and some back later with a compound. My shoulder that I later had surgery on was hurting Some so I caved. Have regretted it since , last NA animal I killed with a gun. Wish I had shot the 330 bull day one at 12 yds. Their average bull that year was 351. I was asked to go again in 2009 when a friend of a friend bailed on two tags and killed a 335 bull day one with a compound, regretting again for shooting too soon. Average bull that year was 331. As I sit here typing this I realize a lot of time has passed quickly and I am so grateful for these great experiences elk hunting. I tell all the young guys to “go while you can” ,getting old sneaks up on you!
That's an incredible bull, and I love all the character his antlers have.
I get the "you'll know it when you see it" mantra, but when you see as many 330"-plus bulls as I have in 3 scouting trips, they all start looking similar. None of them stand out, because they are all HUGE. A good problem to have. ;-)
Matt: You were looking for tips about field judging bulls. Give a listen to Jay Scott Outdoors podcast, Episodes 50 & 51. It's more detailed than you may want to get into 'tho ...
Matt: This side image was published a few years ago. Rotate that rack back and you get a better idea of its size when still on the bull (which was aged at 8.5 years) ...
Thanks for the podcast recommendation. I'll look into it. You also bring up something that I'm beginning to figure out. The overall main beam length, relative to the length of the bulls body, is a tale tell gauge of a true monster. As I mentioned earlier, the big boys look like they can literally scratch their butts with their antlers.
I wish I knew what the average width of a bulls hind quarters are. Similar to using the span of a Mule deer's ears to judge width, that would be a good way to judge a bulls width.
Honestly, the excitement has been worth the 22 year wait. Heck, at this point, killing a respectable bull will be extra gravy on the mash potatoes...it isn't necessary, but it'll make the meal even tastier.
Kurt- I didn’t post the other bull pic because I caved to pressure and shot him with a rifle. I think it was 1997 and a guy couldn’t make it to the Mescalero so I got his spot, discounted as I recall. They had just stated bow hunting and had 4 previous archery hunters, all wounded. When I showed up with my recurve ( (Black Widow) they were pretty uncomfortable and said so. Said they wouldn’t have allowed me to come if they had known. I passed a couple great bulls and they assumed I wasn’t confident. Hell, I was looking for something exceptional because I had never been to a place like that. My buddy had killed 2 booners there On day 4 of a 5 day hunt they asked me to shoot the guides rifle and some back later with a compound. My shoulder that I later had surgery on was hurting Some so I caved. Have regretted it since , last NA animal I killed with a gun. Wish I had shot the 330 bull day one at 12 yds. Their average bull that year was 351. I was asked to go again in 2009 when a friend of a friend bailed on two tags and killed a 335 bull day one with a compound, regretting again for shooting too soon. Average bull that year was 331. As I sit here typing this I realize a lot of time has passed quickly and I am so grateful for these great experiences elk hunting. I tell all the young guys to “go while you can” ,getting old sneaks up on you!
I'm not doing too well on my "no pic posting" policy, but I learned how to eliminate the metadata from them, so I'm not as reluctant to share them.
This is one of my favorite pics. That's a group of 8 mature bulls that I've located in the same general area twice. There's nothing exceptional in that group, but the one on the far left has potential in a few years, I think. You just don't get to see sights like that in the vast majority of elk country, in my experience.
