Electric Pack Wheel legality
Elk
It appears that the electric pack wheel (single wheel) cart can only be used where electric bikes are legal. I emailed San Juan National Forest and asked them if it is legal to use one of these on NON motorized trials where pedal bikes are legal.
Their answer: NO
According to them, it is not legal to use the single wheel electric pack cart on non motorized trails. Sorry to rain on anyone’s parade but wanted to know for sure for myself.
It’s also illegal to drive over the posted speed limit.
Yes it is. But a little different situation. Just want people to go into it with eyes open.
Both probably result in a similarly priced fine and there are alot more speed enforcers. I never speed ;) but I also don’t have an e anything so carry on.
It was a $250 fine the last I heard. So would sting a little.
Last time USGS wrote a citation for it was...never? The Regional Supervisor told me they hadn't written a citation for ebikes anywhere, that he knew of.
It's not a vehicle if you don't sit on it. You could argue (in court if you want) that it is no different than any other electronic device, or mechanical device as long as its legal. Last I checked there was no ban on using electronics?
I have an ebike. When I plan to use it for hunting - very early mornings/ late evenings - I’ve never seen a Forest Service LE person. Plus, I won’t be advertising that I’m using an ebike either.
WildWilderness is correct.
As long as there is t a seat on it, and no way to ride it, it’s no different than an electric chainsaw.
Why is that breaking any other law hunting except with e-bikes is heavily frowned on on this site. But E-bikes get a pass?
It’s also a good bet the person that answered the phone & question, had absolutely no clue.
At least that’s been most of my experiences
I don't have anything nice to say about it so I'm not gonna say anything. OH WAIT
Probably because everybody is getting old....
You guys should let this topic stay on topic. Let's not get into the hypocrisy of who uses what modern technology to make their hunting "easier", ok?
“Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching—even when doing the wrong thing is legal.” ~Aldo Leopold
Yep, like the thousands of bowhunters hunting with illegal 80+ lb letoff bows in Colorado. Haven't heard anyone discussing the ethics of that....
Hi,
Thank you for your question about motorized use on non-motorized trails. You cannot use an electric single wheel game cart on a non-motorized trail. You could use one of the non-motorized ones shown on the website—similar to a mountain bike. And you are right about wilderness—no mechanized or motorized equipment allowed (i.e. no mountain bikes or wheeled carts allowed at all). Just foot and stock travel.
Let me know if you have further questions, and thank you for caring about your public lands. Christy
Forest Service Shield Kathryn (Christy) Garrou Forest VIS Lead Forest Service San
The e-wheelbarrow laws will be enforced like the 14 day camping limit on BLM...not too much, if at all.
Does that make it OK? Your call.
Matt
I too only follow the laws and rules I agree with.
On a serious note, would it be deemed an illegal kill if you were to use one to help your hunt? Would one be considered a poacher?
tx58, did they point you to the written law that states that?
No real difference between my gas powered bike and an ebike either. Guess it's ok to use it anywhere I see someone go with an ebike. Not much difference between the bike and an atv come to think of it. And really no difference between an atv and a jeep. Or my truck. Guess I should just use my truck on those FS roads that are closed to motor vehicles. They don't really mean it for me.
Aspen Ghost, Federal law and CO state law disagree with your opinion.
Its poaching if you use a bow with greater than 80% letoff in Colorado. How many new bows have more than that, and for those that do, how many have changed out the cams to make it so?
So let's discuss "degrees" of poaching and lawbreaking while we're on the subject. How many of you guys hunt with a bow with greater than 80% letoff? Thought so...
The e-packwheel rule is not a law. It is one USFS lackey's interpretation of their TMR (Travel Management Rule). Contact another one and you may get a completely different answer. I asked our USFS Regional office if I could walk my assist bike while turned off across a nonmotorized trail to reach a legal ATV trail 200 yards away. The first answer was "yes, of course". The second answer was "no". Then I asked if I could remove the battery and ride it as a regular 7 speed fat bike. The same deal -yes, followed by no.
And be sure to obey the speed limit
I see the internet lawyers are abundant on BS.........how appropriate an acronymn. LOLOLOL
I have never seen a speed limit sign on the trails I hunt elk in. I will be looking out for those now though.
I don't shot a bow with 80% let off.
I'm not trying to pick on anyone here. I don't have a problem with ebikes or whatever.
I was asking if you knowingly break the rule, are you now a poacher? That's all? What is everyone's thought?
In new Mexico it says it's illegal to drive on a closed road to pursue game. Would that make me a poacher if I drove on one and killed an elk?
It appears that the op was just letting people know the rule as it was explained to him.
Again, just trying to get clarification, for a friend lol
These naySayers don’t bother me. I am going to enjoy the heck out of my new Ebike. I will be riding it on legal trails and all those who don’t like it can lump it while riding to the mountains-in their $60,000 4x4 trucks pulling their 4 wheelers. If they can’t see the difference between a loud smelly passive 4 wheeler and a silent bike you pedal as part of the package, then that’s their loss.
But I didn’t start this to get the ebike haters going. Just wanted to let people know that currently the “rule” is that they are not legal on places where Ebikes can’t go. At least at this moment in the San Juan forest
And yes. I suspect if you were ticketed hauling an animal out with one on a closed trail, they could confiscate you animal.
Oh, did I forget to mention that I’ll also be using my ebike on legal trails? Silly me.
BYW, if Robb is on BLM, he's perfectly legal. Or on NF on any of the Forests where e pilot programs are in effect.
BYW, if Robb is on BLM, he's perfectly legal. Or on NF on any of the Forests where e pilot programs are in effect.
Never used the debate free option yet, but I am tempted with ones like this
Just an FYI, the forest service rangers are cracking down on stuff here in the San Juan national forest. And these guys are out on Saturdays and Sunday's!! The 14 day camping in one spot is being enforced a lot by these guys, as is illegal camp fires at night and littering. Arrests for dui's on forest service roads seem to be the norm now, vehicles and atv's. Mountain bikers now know the penalties for riding Rainbow Trail and riding bikes past the wilderness sign on the Turkey Lake trail. You see the three rangers more then you see the F&G guys...
Full discloser, I have been around for years on this forum. I have rarely posted and have not posted in years. With that said, these e-bike threads over the last year or 2 have intrigued the heck out of me. I have now test ridden a couple and reached out to whom I think is credible for advice, and asked some questions. The great news is, it appears that I can score a really nice bike within my budget. And... if I start archery elk hunting again, I can see myself incorporating it into my hunts. As of 2 weeks ago I am eligible for early retirement and I am kicking around the idea of pulling the trigger within the next 12 months. Sounds like a great retirement gift to myself. All I have to do is figure out where I can ride the thing. Thanks for the help, it is greatly appreciated. It's nice to see a good amount of people supportive of these things. They are incredible to ride!
I personally would not report someone that was using an electric game cart in a non motorized area but on the same hand I would possibly report someone that was using a quad in a non motorized area. I would be willing to bet that the majority of people that are against them probably shoot a compound bow, use binoculars or spotting scopes to assist in locating game and a rangefinder to figure out how far to shoot. Im personally all against motors, wheels and horses in wilderness areas but am totally fine with e bikes and e carts on all other lands. Fact of the matter is you still need to be able to hike to where the game is once you get there.
tx~~ did the correct action by reaching out and getting a response about using his e-Pack with in that area.
It looks like an email so he has that as proof of response although an actual attachment of the Law/regulation would have been more efficient on her part when she responded.
I started reaching out when I first got my e-Bike so I could be legal using it in whichever state I was hunting/BLM or FS or State Ground.
Where I am hunting in Utah on my LE Bow Bull has a bunch of 30 year old/grown in/rutted out logging roads. It's gated at the main access point.
I was legal to use my e Bike before I sold it and I'm legal to use my e-Pack if needed.
I do agree 100% that it sometimes depends on Who ya talk to or get a response from as many are working from home and just basically doing Off The Top of The Head answers.
Thanks for the follow-up tx~~, pretty simple, follow the rules and life is sweet! Enjoy your e-Pack man.
Good luck, Robb
PS ~~ I do sometimes carry my 10 inch Ryobi 18 volt chain saw with me when going back in to get an animal off the mountain for trees in trail ect. for years now.
Good luck with the e-pack and your hunt Robb! Looks like fun and I hope you pack out a big one!
For those that say it’s not a vehicle, prob should look up the definition
Vehicle: a thing used for transporting people or goods, especially on land, such as a car, truck, or cart
It’s off topic. But if I were to Be walking down a trail and an Ebike or an Ecart came By it wouldn’t bother me. Like seeing or hearing quads and UTVs ripping down FS roads and trails.
To me it’s about the experience and a silent Ecart going By wouldn’t affect me or disrupt animals.
The first off topic, on target post on this thread :-)
Hard to fathom that something you walk in is illegal. That’s like up here, bicycles are illegal but fwd pickups are not. Luckily, the Feds are lazy and are either playing with their computers or sucking down coffee. A wonderful welfare system.
It has a motor, that is all you need to know. They are restricted on where you can take them on the NF or BLM. Good luck with your hunt .
Wytex, BLM allows Class 1 and 2 ebikes and e packwheels anywhere a regular bike is allowed on nonmotorized trails. They wanted to align with the federal law that says those two classes are considered "non-motorized", which many states also follow (including CO and WY). USFS is the only remaining holdout, and correspondence I get from them includes the caveat "for now, as we reevaluate our policies".
Ebikes and epack wheels are good for the hunting community. Just like spending $250,000 to shoot an elk is.
Lets promote them both
So many haters, so much jealousy, lol!
Brad they are good for hunting just like Pick up trucks and ATV's as long as those using them use them in accordance with the law. Lou no one is hating or jealous. I could sell my ATV and buy two or three of them or just buy one - if I wanted to. Hell someday I might buy one. But there is no reason a guy should be able to drive one up a trail that is not attended for motorized vehicles any more than they should a ATV or dirtbike. If a old guy should be able to get to his hunting spots on a ebike he should be able to do it on a ATV and I'll be a old guy before I am a young guy again.
I've owned an ATV for 15 years, for chores around my property. But, I've never hunted with it because I've seen the adverse reaction to them when animals hear them from miles away...many times. Where I hunt elk, they react far less to a regular truck, than they do to an ATV. I think they are used to hearing rancher's trucks, so they aren't as alarmed by them The ATVs seem to signal DANGER to them, and rightfully so, I guess.
I'll be using my e-bike on BLM roads and trails, where there are no motorized restrictions, in order to extend my range quickly and silently. I think if more hunters utilized e-bikes instead of ATVs, it would improve the hunting for all. At least it would in my area;
Matt
John, I was poking at some of the ebike haters who were critical of anyone who didn't agree with the methods and process in the 470 bull thread. Anyone who doesn't think that whole deal is peachy is accused of being jealous and a hater. Which Brad also alluded to.
As far as reaching the same spots on an ATV - nope. Many of the trails where I ride my ebike have too much deadfall for an ATV, but I can ride around it or lift my bike over the fallen trees. USFS doesn't maintain them and I'm not going to saw my way in and out. Some others are so eroded that taking an ATV on them is death-defying, but I can ride the edge safely on the Rambo. And in many places, ATVs do signal danger. I've seen it up close and personally. The ATV engine sound stops, even a half mile away, and the elk quietly leave.
"But there is no reason a guy should be able to drive one up a trail that is not attended for motorized vehicles any more than they should a ATV or dirtbike." Umm, ok, you should probably make that argument to the Department of the Interior and the states of CO and WY, because they disagree with that premise for Class 1 and 2 assist bikes. They have made them legal wherever old fashioned bikes can ride. As have a bunch of other states. And the USFS is conducting pilot programs in some National Forests and finding no conflicts with other users. Matt is right - If everybody parked their ATVs and rode ebikes, the hunting world would be a much better place.
There's photo on last year's elk meatpole thread of one outspoken ebike hater with his whole elk loaded on the back of a trailer pulled by a side-by-side. He complained about the damage to the fragile environment caused by low-pressure fat tire ebikes. Classic!
I'll give you this Lou it is as much a non motorized bike as a crossgun or one of these new airbows is bow. Since being quiet is important I think we should start allowing rifles with silencers in archery season too.
LOL, John, many would argue that these 100 yard capable machines with gears, cams, pulleys and angle-compensating, range-finding sights aren't really "bows" either. Engineered cams are activated rather than limbs being draw and held. , A hater might say that they make it easier for those who are too weak, lazy, old or otherwise unskilled to become proficient with a bow. Everyone who uses one justifies it in a different manner, but we all know the honest truth, right? (Wink). But the government says they are legal so they are allowed in "bow" hunting seasons....
See how I did that? :-)
John, so you don't think being quiet when approaching wild game is important? Or are you one of those guys who drives his ATV around all day, stopping periodically to cut loose a few bugles, then complains about the slow hunting when he gets back to camp? That may sound ridiculous, but I've seen it many times.
Matt
Yep that it is Matt. No I think neither Trucks, ATV, dirtbike, electric bikes, electric cars, or electric ATV/UTV should be allowed on any trail designated not motorized. You all can dance around it all you want but the e bikes are motorized. It is black and white. I am not anti e bikes I think they are great idea. When I get as old as you guys ;) I might get one, maybe sooner. I can think of places I hunt and have hunted they would be a great tool. But they should stay on roads and trails designated for motorized vehicles. Lou dances around the issue if allow by this agency or that or that and what someone told him and about pilot programs. Lou is a much better wordsmith than I. But it sound like most inquiries say they are not legal on trail that motorized vehicles are not allowed. I also find it disappointing when I hear hunters say it like going over the speed limit and no one is there to enforce it. Hunters would be a sorry group if we took that approach to all the "small" laws and rules that apply to us.
Well, John, you can't deny that Lou is correct. Many states have determined that e-bikes can go anywhere a regular bike can be ridden, in many places. Just like they've determined that your 80% let-off compound bow with all the gizmos is considered a "archery" weapon. If we've learned anything over the years, it should be that there's no "black and white" when it comes to hunting regulations.
Matt
Matt this thread was start with a email to San Juan National Forest and asked them if it is legal to use one of these on NON motorized trials where pedal bikes are legal. Clearly came back NO.
Jac I know they can be used on same trails on BLM as regular bikes, however they are restricted in not being able to go off trail, that is what I was referring to. That pack cart would be restricted to trails only was the point I tried to make.
This from https://www.fs.usda.gov
The Forest Service Travel Management Rule defines motor vehicles as any vehicle that is self-propelled, with the exception of a vehicle that travels on rails or fits the vehicle criteria for “mobility use” for mobility impaired individuals. The Forest Service considers technologies that merge bicycles and motors (gas, batteries or electric powered) as motor vehicles. E-bikes, therefore, would be considered a motorized vehicle and not allowed on non-motorized trails.
COLORADO’S E-BIKE LAW FOR TRAILS
LOCAL: Consult your local land management agency.
STATE: E-bikes are allowed in all 42 Colorado State Parks where bicycles are permitted. Contact Colorado State Parks for more information.
FEDERAL: As of August 29th 2019 all eBikes up to 750 watt can now access Federal Lands and National Parks anywhere a regular bicycle can access. The one exception is National Forests, the forests are managed by the Department of Agriculture and these changes are not implemented yet on the forests. Changes are happening to align all Federal land to the recent Order. Contact the US Forest Service Rocky Mountain Regional Office or the BLM Colorado State Office for more information.
Matt
So thank you Matt for pointing that National Forest does not allow e-bikes on same trails it allows bikes
So thank you Matt for pointing that National Forest does not allow e-bikes on same trails it allows bikes
John, I'm not dancing around anything, just stating facts. I know these laws and ruling can be confusing, so just trying to help out. Under federal law, Class 1 and 2 are not regulated as "motorized". Says it right there in the text. Basically the only agency still holding out is USFS, and they are moving to align with the Department of the Interior, per my personal conversation with a USFS Regional Supervisor. He said he agrees with the Interior ruling and thinks Class 1 and 2 should be allowed, but "the wheels turn slowly in DC."
Like it or not, assist bikes are coming to a trail near you. I'm old enough to remember this same wailing and gnashing of teeth when compound bows first became popular. Now look at where we are.....
Lou much of elk hunting is done on FS. If legal elsewhere go for. I personally am not for. With that said there very well may come a day if I can't beat them join them. But if they are never allow I am ok with that. The day will come hopefully not for another 15-20 years that I just can't get to where I once could. I am ok with that. It is the way it always been and I'll get out the way for the next generation.
As I see it, you can either embrace new regulations that may improve your chances of success, or you can sit around and complain about them. Of course that all depends on your definition of “success”.
We all draw our own lines in the sand on what regulations we support or not. I drew a line on allowing muzzleloaders to hunt during the archery season, but my line didn’t matter, and they got their wish. I drew another line on allowing cross-guns in the archery season. That line is holding in the west, so far, but I’m sure the tide will soon erase that line too. I draw a line on selling special tags with no limits to the highest bidder under the guise of “conservation”, but that line doesn’t seem to matter to many, either.
Now that I think about it, allowing e-bikes where regular bikes can be ridden is about the only new hunting regulations that I support, and will take full advantage of. Your mileage may vary, and I’m cool with that, too.
Matt
Oh Gees...Where are they selling special tags with no limits to the highest bidder? I see them in most states but most are very limited.
Arizona. 365 day season in any unit with any weapon. That was the discussion on the 470 AZ bull thread.
I sure understand your sentiment that you will be willing to get out the way once you can no longer (fill in the blank). I felt that way once, too. Until that day comes and you still have the fire. That's why I switched to shooting one of those cam-driven arrow propelling machines - because I still live to bowhunt but can no longer shoot my stickbows as I did since childhood. Does that mean I should step aside and leave bowhunting to the flat-brimmers? No, I decided to shoot a machine (for now) because it is legal and allows me to continue doing what I love. Someday you guys will understand. Meantime do whatever you like as long as it is legal and have a great fall.
Lou you have 20 years on me. I doubt I would be doing any waiting around for you up a mountain. Might be the other way. I would be more supportive of ways to keep the "old guys" in the field if you could make it exclusive to them. I hate crossbows in archery season. With that said I got a couple of buddies in their 70's that are still bowhunting I'll help them get their paperwork in order that CO require to get a medical exception to hunt during archery with a crossbow if they can't shoot a real bow anymore and a crossbow will buy them a few more season. But every Tom, Dick, and Harry on a e bike trying to get 4 miles back to hunt elk is not good for the sport.
“ But every Tom, Dick, and Harry on a e bike trying to get 4 miles back to hunt elk is not good for the sport.”
But those $250,000 Elk tags sure are good for the sport.
I can’t wait to reap the benefits of them.
Four guys are getting ready to head up a F.S. trail. The first one takes off riding and leading a string of horses that crap along as they go. Two guys follow up through the crap on mountain bikes. The last guy has an class 2 e-bike. Does it really make sense that the guy on the e-bike is being told he cannot use the trail with his bike? I suspect that is the question the F.S. is contemplating.
Government rules and policies always have a difficult time keeping up with technology. Here in the Intermountain West, the Pack Wheel e-cart is legal in "most" National Forests. There are a few high profile areas around Jackson Hole and Park City that have enacted some restrictions. These will continue to evolve.
In Western Wyoming, the forest service itself has been using e-bikes for some back country (non-wilderness) work for a couple years. I'm not a huge fan of seeing these riders in the back country, but the down side is pretty limited.
Like everything in life, responsible use is the key. Don't be destructive to fragile habitat and there won't be an issue. Game carts have a long history of use in National Forests and on BLM land for many years. Few, if any, ever complained about a guy hauling out an elk on a cart. Putting a battery on the cart for an uphill assist is unlikely to offend any but the keyboard warrior. Most people I've met on the trail can't tell if I am pushing the cart or using the battery, unless on an obviously steep trail. All I have met have been supportive and expressed positive comments.
Having used the Pack Wheel for two years, I can tell you it has definite advantages. The biggest draw back is that it will always be back in camp, so after a kill you have to go get it. No big deal. You also do have to walk, obviously. Most people aren't willing to even walk off the road several miles, let alone pack an elk. I've packed well over 100 elk on my back, and as the years increase I am looking for another way to extend my time in the back country. The Pack Wheel has provided one way to do that. And it is legal in all the areas I hunt in the region.
Bill
Simple solution: Only seniors or disabled can use them. Same as many places for crossbows.
Back in the day when I was a longhaired wild man backpacker all over the West, I used to despise people with travel trailers and RVs. Yelled at them when I passed them on the road. I was "BHA" before Land Tawney was born. Now I have two - my hunting base camp and a his-hers for our fishing/ebiking base. Life brings changes.
You have to admit, Lou is a sexy man, even at his his advanced age. ;-).
Matt.
Swede your phobia for horse crap is the deciding factor in your opinion. We’ll never agree with that. Moose elk deer bears and YOU all crap in the woods. That has nothing to do with advantages of accessing far away places. My take is cut and dried... if motorized is legal then it’s legal and if someone doesn’t like it they have the right to hunt elsewhere. But if the trails are off limits to motors then that should include ALL motors and if people with motorized bikes carts wheelbarrows etc don’t like it they also have the right to go somewhere else. Pretty simple.
Mule Power, if people were unloading big piles of fly-covered crap every 10 feet on the trails and tearing it up with their feet like iron-shod horses do, you might have a valid point. Personally I'd like to see foot trails be just that - FOOT trails. Humans only, on foot. If trails are opened to horses, then open them up to ebikes too, because it takes a hell of a lot more effort and skill to ride a Class 1 or 2 ebike up a rocky trail than to plop a fat ass on a saddle and drink a beer riding up the trail.
You probably aren't going to be very happy when USFS gets on board with Department of Interior, which they will.
The 2019 Department of Interior's order #3376 literally opened up thousands of trails to e-bikes, where they were banned before. Thank you President Trump!!
;-)
Matt
Time for someone to invent an E-Horse. Put hooves around the wheels.
Of corse to make it authentic, it would have to be programmed to randomly throw its load, rub you against trees, bite and step on your foot and not be there in the morning.
Hmm, just because someone doesn't agree with a progressives non traditional opinion he now becomes labeled a "hater". Sounds like something out of a high school girls locker room.
JusPassin, you missed the 470 AZ bull thread apparently. That's where the "hater" reference came from. Anyone who disagreed with the process of that "hunt" were called haters and jealous. But calling ebike advocates "progressives" is pejorative and hateful in it's own right.
JP. There ARE ebike haters. Not locker room, just fact. You or anyone else can dislike Ebikes or electric one wheel carts all you want. Doesn’t bother me one bit. What bothers me is EVERY Ebike post seems to bring out guys who dislike them even when it has nothing to do with the post. I posted info and guys feel compelled to chime in negatively. THAT is high school locker room stuff.
Oregon:
It is illegal to put a box of human feces on the side of the road. 811.172 Improperly disposing of human waste; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of improperly disposing of human waste if the person is operating or riding in a motor vehicle and the person throws, puts or otherwise leaves a container of urine or other human waste on or beside the highway.
And your horse should not be allowed to crap on the trail either. E-bikes forever!
Also don't bike ride "fancy" in part of Illinois. It is ill eagle.
When laws don't make sense, people tend to ignore them.
Dang it! After reading Jaq’s post above about drinking a beer while riding a horse up a trail I realized all the lost opportunities from hunts when I was younger and packing in using horses every year. I realize he was already 70 then, long haired and yelling at everyone and everything but it’s too bad Bowsite wasn’t around back then since his wisdom would’ve been very helpful!
Tilzbow, lol! You didnt pack beer in the panniers? I always did, figured that was partly why I fed those horses all year. And yes, I did enjoy one now and then when riding up the trail, while some were still cold!
“ And your horse should not be allowed to crap on the trail either. E-bikes forever!”
Lol
Off topic rant Swede. Crap and land access have nothing to do with each other. But carry on if it tickles your old fancy....
Disclaimer: I own an e-bike.
That being said, if a trail is designated as non-motorized my personal belief is that anything that has a motor should not be allowed on it. Seems weird that a motor is only labelled a motor if it puts out a non-consequential arbitrary amount of power. That would mean e-wheelbarrows, bikes, scooters, whatevers all should not be allowed. (opinion)
THAT being said, I don't really think ebikes should be disallowed on any trail that allows anything but foot traffic. If you are using any mode of travel OTHER than foot travel, there is nothing that is quieter and will do less damage to the soil than a low pressure fat tire bike. I think it's arguable that the ebike will cause less erosion to a trail than foot traffic. Since a fat tire bike with low air pressure is extremely difficult to pedal, IMO a low pressure fat tire e-bike is about the best thing you can use to get anywhere. It's quiet, it doesn't smell, it doesn't lay down scent, and if I was a foot-hiking hunter I would thank the Lord that other people are making the investment and getting further, increasing pressure in hard to reach areas pushing the elk back to me.
Some still missed my point. The term "haters" pops up all over social media and usually refers to anyone who doesn't support someone else's point of view. Pejorative in itself. As for the e-bike thingy, I think I would like one, but wouldn't ride it anywhere where it says "motorized prohibited".
"But every Tom, Dick, and Harry on a e bike trying to get 4 miles back to hunt elk is not good for the sport."
It is for those hunting 1-3 miles from the road. ;-)
JusPassin, so you wouldn't ride it on a trail on BLM or State land marked as "No Motorized Vehicles" even though it is perfectly legal?
Well, you see, I'm old but still smart enough to know what a "motor" is. So no, not even if it's "legal".
I bet this thread will still be going when ebikes and epacks become legal EVERYWHERE. :)
Wow, JusPassin, I admire your...whatever....I guess. Strange way of thinking but to each his own. Legal should not be bracketed in quotation marks in this case, because they are permitted wherever old fashioned bikes are permitted.
It seems the anti e-bike crowd is so hung up on the definition of a "motor", that they don't even care what the law says. I have yet to see anyone claim an e-bike doesn't have a motor, but the fact is the Department of Interior has ruled that e-bikes are allowed anywhere a regular bike is on the federal lands they manage. And many states have ruled the same on state lands. And it appears the same will apply to National Forrest soon, too. So, it's really no different than when they determined that high-letoff compound arrow flinging machines are considered "archery" weapons. Times and technology change, and so do the laws that regulate them. Every hunter has a choice on what technologies he embraces, or not, as long as it's legal.
Matt
Matt said today in another thread:
I love the mission statement of the company in Kannuck's link. "Some lessons can only be learned the hard way, amassing time in the field. When you strip away the challenges you impose on yourself, you become more available to enjoy the pure challenges of the hunt."
So, by that logic we should all be "hunting" with drones equipped with heat seeking cameras and homing missiles to "enjoy the pure challenge of the hunt". What a joke.
Matt
How can you say that in one thread and also not see the point of people's issue with e bikes? Baffling
It's simple John, not baffling. To me, e-bikes are more challenging and less disruptive to wild game than are ATVs that have become all the rage in recent decades. Just like hunting DIY is more challenging than hiring a team to hunt for you, so that you only have to pull the trigger.
As I've said several times, I will using my e-bike on BLM roads and 2-tracks that I could drive my Jeep or ATV on, because I like the additional effort and stealth that my e-bike will provide. I don't view that as embracing some new technology that will make my hunt easier, like a cross-gun or one of those arrow slinging air guns would. Actually, riding an e-bike will be a step back in technology from the ways I've accessed hunting spots in past years. My old Jeep won't get as much use, but it's 40 years old, and is due for retirement, anyway.
Matt
Well a crossbow would be more challenging and less disruptive to wild game than a muzzleloader or rifle. I am all for them on BLM roads and 2-tracks that you can legally drive a Jeep or ATV. That is a lot different than a trail not allowing jeeps or ATV through the National Forest. That when new technology will make someone's hunt easier. I am not suggesting outlawing them, but lets not calling them a non motorized vehicles or maybe we can just start calling them Caitlyn Jenner! ;)
I have yet to see anyone claim an e-bike is a "non-motorized vehicle", so can we stop with that straw man argument?
How many times have you been passed on a trail by a hunter on a regular bike? For me, the answer is never. So, do you honestly think the woods are suddenly going to be crawly with old guys on e-bikes? Find something else to fret about, dude.
Matt
The only people claiming them to be "nonmotorized" are the folks in the U.S. Congress and the President, who signed into law HR 727. That says "a low speed electric bicycle shall not be considered a motor vehicle and defined by section 30102(6) of Title 49, United States Code". "For purposes of this section, the term low-speed electric bicycle means a two or three wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts".
750 watts is less than half of the wattage of a typical bathroom hairdryer.
Matt you might read again above. It was said the class 1 & 2 are consider "non-motorized" by federal law.
You sure did fret about a very small number of governor tags being handed out. I've been pass a few times by bikes on trails but never ran into anyone with a governor's tags, dude. Maybe the solutions is to sell a few governor's permits to use e bikes on the non motorized trails. ;)
Is it safe to assume GG, Jaquomo and JohnMC don’t have antelope tags right now? Maybe ya’ll should do a Hooter’s meet up and hash it out over a beer and a nice view? Why wait until Christmas for the Bowsite gathering? :)
I do have a antelope tag and sweated by balls off yesterday. Today I am at work just not working very hard. I could have really enjoyed a good bowsite debate yesterday if the cell service did not suck so bad at my blind. Wish I had a e cart yesterday my cheap game cart was a pain in the ass hauling blind, chair (one of those heavy zero gravity ones), and hooper cooler to tank. Plus backpack with bow tripod and heavy camera because what else is there to do for 14.5 yours in a blind with no cell services and very few lopes than take pictures of birds. BTW the book I took sucked.
"Matt you might read again above. It was said the class 1 & 2 are consider "non-motorized" by federal law."
Yup, thank the President and Congress for that. Or, lobby to have the law repealed, if it's that important to you. Until then, guys like myself, Lou, and several others will take advantage of the law where e-bikes make more sense than other means of transportation in areas where they are legal.
Matt
Or maybe we should just get over it and accept that ebikes are here to stay, just like ATVs, cellular trail cams, rangefinders, rangefinding fiber optic sights, lighted nocks, 85% letoff compound bows, on and on and on.
Just think how awesome hunting would be if we returned to the days of Willys Jeeps and recurves! Right?! I would gladly trade in my ebike for that to be the rule on all public land.
Quinn, I only come on Bowsite when I'm taking a dump or resting after an ass-kicking ebike ride. :-)
Quinn, I'd rather hang out on Bowsite, in between e-bike rides and long hikes with a weighted pack on, then hunt prairie maggots. They never did much for me. ;-)
"Just think how awesome hunting would be if we returned to the days of Willys Jeeps and recurves! Right?! I would gladly trade in my ebike for that to be the rule on all public land."
Lou you kind summed up how I fill about a lot of hunting technology theses day. I am not suggesting we go that far back. But I think there will be a day not all that far in the future when if not us our kids will have wished we would have self regulated or lobbied for a brake to a lot of tech in hunting. CO has done a better job than most states. For example no lighted sights, can't use the sight with a built in rangefinder, so far no crossbows. I believe cellular trail cams are illegal during season. They keep muzzleloaders more traditional than most states. E bikes are certainly not my biggest concerns but it one more step on the way.
Bowhunters have long season mostly in the prime times to hunt. Mostly because those that make the season don't expect us to be very successful and because traditionally not very many people did it for that reason. Equipment that can kill a animal at 100 yards much easier than even a handful of years ago and equipment has become fairly easy to become proficient with is not in the best interest of bowhunters as a whole.
When new tech comes out the question needs to ask if it better for the sport of hunting or for the people/company marketing it. Especially bowhunting.
If I use it it’s fine and I’ll spend all day justifying it. If I don’t same thing.... I’m good at debates!
I was born a hundred years too late. Between politics, gadgets, and things that eliminate working for what we want this world is going to $h1t.
John, I generally agree with your last post.
The problem with reverting back to an earlier less technologically advanced era is everyone would have their own ideas on how far back we should go. I'd be fine with Lou's suggestion, since I spent many years bouncing around in my Father's old Willys jeep, with a 30-06 Springfield pinched between my legs. That was some of my fondest hunting memories.
Sadly, technology never pauses in hunting, or any other way of life. So, you have to pick and choose what old technologies you cling to, and what new technologies you embrace. I hung in longer than most with my old flip phone, but now I love my new iPhone 11.
Good discussion, my friend.
Matt
Not at all suggest we go back in time on technology. For the most part you can't put the cat back in the bag. But when new crap comes out it does not always need to be accepted into regulations. E bikes included.
"For the most part you can't put the cat back in the bag."
E-bikes are out of the bag, if you haven't noticed. You might as well embrace it, now. In 20 years, you may be arguing about jet packs being legal for hunting.
Matt
Allow them on non motorized trails or not on National Forest is very much still in the bag. Matt since you agree about to much tech in hunting help by stopping e bike on non motorized trail on National Forest. It won’t just be hunter driving them all the Forest before we know it we will be dodging granola crunchers on their e bikes too. Keep them were you are currently using them on trails for ATVs, dirt bikes, and Jeeps.
John,
In my experience, "granola crunchers" are generally lazy, and cheap. I don't worry much about them invading hunting areas on e-bikes.
Matt
I’ve spent a lot time last couple of years in sheep country. Lots of them above tree line. If they are lazy I am sure they would love a easier way to get there like a e bike. ;) I doubt they are any more or less cheap than hunters. You got the Sitka e bike hunters and the ones hunting with a 20 years old bow and their cotton clothes. Looking at the cars at a trail head during the summer I’d say granola crew fairly similar in that respect.
The vast amount of places I can get to on an e-bike are accessed by old logging roads that go to no place of interest to granola crunchers. These spots hold deer and elk, and maybe some berries on occasion. I see wood cutters go there in their beat up pickups because they don't care if the truck get scratched or even dented. These roads may get closed by fire restriction, but my e-bike is good. As far as going into some place closed to all motorized vehicles is concerned; I think that is a small part of the total picture. If the road or trail is open to a horse or a regular bicycle, I see no reason to restrict the e-bike. Just my opinion.
John, I know exactly where you killed your Bighorn in 2019 from your pictures, because I hunted that same area for sheep 15 years ago. I doubt there were any e-bike riders up there.
Matt
No never seen one on NF hope it stays that way. Where I killed him was easiest place to get to I hunted not sure why I waited 12 days to go there. Also would have been perfect for a e bike.
Swede are those logging roads open to motorized travel? Whether they are or not I know the country you hunt and you and I are talking apples and oranges. A guy could tear up your neck of the woods on a pedal bike or on foot. I’m talking about keeping some sacred ground sacred. One thing I will say us that I am all for keeping older hunters in the game. I’d feel differently if a couple twenty somethings came buzzing up the trail straddling a motorized bike... oops I’m sorry “E” is the term.. than I’d feel about two 60 somethings doing the same thing.
John, don't BS me. An e-bike hunter may have ridden the road from the top of Berthoud Pass a short ways. But traversing to were you killed your ram would have been a nightmare.
Matt
Somehow I don't see a 10 horse pack string carrying four fatass hunters and all their gear, whiskey and cigars, crapping all the way up the trail and pushing me off into the trees to let them go clomping past with zero physical effort as "keeping sacred ground sacred", but that's just me. Everybody has different perspectives.......
If you're going to use an e-whatever, you need to read the rules/regs for that particular area. For Wyoming, which Jaq mentiond, if hunting an HMA or TMA you need to read those rules. It may be perfectly legal to ride an e-bike for bird watching but illegal to ride one for hunting. Oregon has some of the same TMA regulations; no motorized vehicles, and wattage doesn't matter as it's not a state regulation but falls under ODFW pervue.
I’m waiting for Sitka or Kuiu to put out an ebike before I buy. That way my flat brim won’t be out of place.
Lou you know I love you brother. You have a way with words. But it’s still foot travel. And crap is crap. Some people refer to it as fertilizer. It’s organic. I hunted an area in Montana that was used by dirt bikes and lots of mountain bikes. What the people with that mentality left was anything but organic. Oil cans, food wrappers, and the worst.... fires that weren’t dead out that took off when the wind picked up.
But all of that is off track. With pollution and erosion aside... it’s ALL about access. About opening doors to people who wouldn’t be there is it weren’t for that motor. You don’t just turn a key or push a button on a horse. They add 2 hours to the beginning and end of every day. Time and effort! And you don’t learn how to use them in a couple weeks. Add to that the fact that they ate a year round expense and responsibility. About the furthest thing from a bike regardless of whether you pedal it or not.
But hey... I’ll let you guys pave the way to low impact motorized travel. I’m saving up for the day when you get them to agree that drones that carry me and my gear are legit. After all they don’t even touch the trails or poop so why not??? It’s all about the poop right? ;-)
For better or worse the horse/mule was there long before anyone's granddaddy considered using a Willy Jeep to go hunting.
MP, you know I respect the hell out of you. You also know I used to be a horseman and packer. So let's turn it around.
Horses open up roadless areas to those otherwise unable or unwilling to put in the physical effort themselves. They pay someone to do it for them. It IS all about access. The only "foot travel" required is from the truck to the saddle. It takes no skill or effort to sit in the saddle of a made horse or mule. They are the furthest thing from bike travel. Those four shod hooves do 1000x the damage to the trails as a low pressure fat-tire bike. Hundreds of piles of horse poop dont fertilize anything in the middle of a trail. Your analogy confuses the people who own the horses with those paying someone to haul them into the backcountry on the backs of them.
Let's not confuse ethical bike riders with slob dirt bikers. Different mentality, and I agree with you that many of them are pigs. But the demographic who rides ebikes is dramatically different. All of the pilot programs conducted by cities, states, and feds prove this. No oil can or beer bottle has ever been left behind by an ethical ebike riding hunter. We also arent talking about wilderness access, as the MTB groups are lobbying for. Only access to trails and closed roads that other bikes can use.
And there are motorized ultralights you could use to get in and out now. They are illegal. "We" aren't trying to get "them" to agree to legalizing those, so let's keep the "Straw Man" arguments out of this discussion.
"it’s ALL about access. About opening doors to people who wouldn’t be there is it weren’t for that motor."
Speaking of opening doors for access, do you think this guy could have ridden an e-bike into the hole where his hired team of scouts located and led him to a 470" bull?
Matt
If it had a recliner for a seat he might've had a chance! Maybe he's a sumo wrestler on the side and in much better shape than he appears.
Come on Lou... No oil can or beer bottle has ever been left behind by an ethical anybody. You don't really believe anyone going to buy the argument that all e bike rides are going to be ethical do you? In this thread alone there are folks equating riding on closed roads to doing 5 mph over the speed limit and no one is out patrolling so why worry about it.
No John, but equating ebike riders with go-to-hell motocross riders is a reach. Painting any group with a broad brush is antithetical to the discussion. Except people who pay someone to haul them into the backcountry on the back of a horse. Not one of them puts in a lick of effort to get back in there.
Your argument is lack of effort of horseback riders to get into backcountry, but discounts the argument that motorized e bikes allow less effort than on foot or a real bike?
I beg to differ Lou. If you “sit” in a saddle you’ll cripple yourself. Riding a horse properly is as much work as riding an e bike. You and I both know that nobody ever hops off of a saddle after an hour or three and says “Wow that was great”. That’s not to mention the work required just to have a saddled horse standing at a trailhead ready to go.
No need to add a paid outfitted hunt versus diy to this conversation. A whole other subject. I’m talking about an old arthritic diy hunter doing it all by himself. That guy would be me! Lol And it gets harder every day the hunt. The only thing as rewarding as seeing a dead bull on the ground is when I see those stinky ponies walk away for the last time I swear!
Sure, I know how to properly ride and post. But I never, ever see anyone riding properly on an outfitter pack horse. They all look like our wealthy friend in GGs post. He wasn't too crippled to shoot a 470 bull at the end of the trail..
John, one question - have you ever muscled a 65 lb ebike up a steep, rocky trail while wearing a loaded pack? Thought so.
Lou early the motorized e bike was a way to keep the older guys in the game. Now your one bad ass mother F'er if you can get up the mountain on one. Love ya Lou but your all over the place on this one.
I believe that the make it easier stuff will in time put a lot more non-hunters into the back country, hard to get to places.. That once took a whole day on foot, will now take only a couple of hours. Hunters will soon have a lot more company. I'm glad the the e-bike use here in Pa on our hunter owned land got shot down. It was stated that the e-bike industry was trying to open up this land to e-bikes, which had wording drafted so all could used this land. They know that they could not just ask the Game commission to open up this land. So they tried to do it by using the hunters to get it open. So if it went through it would of been for non hunters also.
I believe that the make it easier stuff will in time put a lot more non-hunters into the back country, hard to get to places.. That once took a whole day on foot, will now take only a couple of hours. Hunters will soon have a lot more company. I'm glad the the e-bike use here in Pa on our hunter owned land got shot down. It was stated that the e-bike industry was trying to open up this land to e-bikes, which had wording drafted so all could used this land. They know that they could not just ask the Game commission to open up this land. So they tried to do it by using the hunters to get it open. So if it went through it would of been for non hunters also.
Anyone who thinks riding a horse up a trail is as much work as riding an e-bike up the same trail obviously hasn't ever ridden an e-bike. And, yes, I own hay-burners too, and know how to ride them.
Matt
John, you guys keep changing the argument and taking it down bizarre paths (drones to deliver you into the backcountry, motocross riders leaving unattended fires and oil cans, the extreme effort required to sit on a made horse, on and on). I'm just responding in kind. Let it go. They are here to stay, will soon be accepted wherever regular bikes can go. They won't be allowed in wilderness areas or off-trails, which will still leave 112 millions acres of "solitude" available only to Born and Raised wannabes and lazy fat guys on horses.
John, you guys keep changing the argument and taking it down bizarre paths (drones to deliver you into the backcountry, motocross riders leaving unattended fires and oil cans, the extreme effort required to sit on a made horse, on and on). I'm just responding in kind. Let it go. They are here to stay, will soon be accepted wherever regular bikes can go. They won't be allowed in wilderness areas or off-trails, which will still leave 112 million acres of "solitude" available only to thousands of Born and Raised wannabes and lazy fat guys on horses.
I have not changed my argument one iota. That is they are a motorized vehicle, keep them were all motorized vehicle can go and we don't have to accept every new tech gadget that comes along. You guys and the e bike lobby have thrown out ever red herrion you can think of and want to change the definition of what is, is.
John, I don't think anyone expects you to "accept" e-bikes at this point, until you actually ride one, or course. Part of having an objective and impartial opinion is having experience with that which you object to. I was guilty of the same thing on the Sues Vide thread not too long. I thought they were just another yuppy gimmick for people who couldn't cook traditionally. That all changed when I actually ate a meal that was prepared in one.
It cracks me up how some you apparently think the small bit of pedal assist that a 750W e-bike provides suddenly turns an average hunter into a mountain scaling beast who can propel himself into your deepest honey holes.
Matt
Serious question. Why would anyone in their right mind muscle a heavy e-bike up a steep rocky trail? I've thought about getting one but everywhere in Nevada that I can think of using one in has steep rocky trails or roads that are better suited for an ATV (which I don't own), a good 4x4 or foot travel. In NV we have open roads, steep nasty rocky roads and roads closed due to wilderness (no wheels allowed) so I just don't see a practical use in this state. The trails, if you can find one, in the areas I hunt are all rocky and nasty or in wilderness (see the Ruby Mountains). I can definitely see the use on closed roads or trails in other states I've hunted, just not here.
Is it a matter of getting to the top and then riding a much longer distance on a much nicer, flatter road while smelling the daisies?
Tizbow,
For me, the advantage of an e-bike will be being able to cover a lot of ground on motorized roads and 2-tracks, quickly and silently. For example, I've found a couple of honey holes in the trophy unit I'll be hunting this year that are 3-6 miles off the county roads on BLM. Any yahoo on a ATV or 4x4 can drive the 2-tracks into these honey holes, but doing so would undoubtedly spook the elk. I'm confident I'll be able to slip into these spots on my e-bike without being detected in a fraction of the time it would take to walk in.
Matt
I feel like Bowsite has become the new Nextdoor app
Tilz, it is more climbing steep, rocky sections in between more rideable sections.
"We don't have to accept every new tech gadget that comes along". Except, of course, the new tech gadgets YOU want to use. I know what you shoot, which "you guys" lobbied for and had legally accepted as a "bow".
Good morning Lou! I figured this would be a great place to find you. I have you patterned. Lol
Dang! Are you boys STILL at it?! ;-)
