Bowsite.com

I'm satisfied 100% with my equipment - a newer Bowtech with all the good accessories - tuned to perfection and shoots great.

The point of this post is the prove that a deer can react to the noise of the arrow flight as much or than the sound of the bow going off.

On multiple instances i have had this exact scenario happen...

Up a tree 20' Still afternoon, doe at 23 yards, aim low in the arm pit, hit her good. The exit hole comes out higher than the entry hole - Indicating that the deer Ducked and Lunged away from the arrow. I think the deer could hear the arrow coming - other wise they would not go away from the arrow.

this is not a one off instance - i've killed alot of deer with a bow - and i'm a student on every single shot i take...

So i did some testing with a good video camera and a external microphone. shooting past the camera into the target. ( i only tested fixed blades - that's all i shoot) Vented Broadheads make alot of wind Noise in flight. Blazer vanes make alot of wind noise in flight.

This year i set out to make the quietest Arrow i could This was the winner

i Fletched with AAE stealth Max, and Silent knight vanes and paired with helix 150 grain right bevel broadheads - (unvented two blad) This set up was ALOT quieter than anything else i tested, it flies really really quiet - the only sound i hear is the thud of bow going off - and the target impact....

maybe i am going overboard - but i want the quietest set up that i can get - and i always want to improve as an archer and a hunter.

share your thoughts....

Its very important to have a quite bow - i believe its also important to have a quite arrow.

That's the last time I let him use me as a guinea pig for a sound experiment...

This reverts to the question that expands the question i.e. what is essential- a quiet arrow or a quiet bow or both or does it depend on the animal size?

Anyway, it has to be more accurate than human perception & recollection. Just remember that dB are on a log scale, so the size of the gap may not seem like much on paper.....

It always seemed to me that the sound of feathers zipping through the air would not be all that alarming to a deer or Elk - birds must do it to them all the time - but then I shot a few arrows with “traditional” cut fletching that had the long, unsupported section in back and they damn near startled ME!

That’s why I’m getting fussy about tuning - the better your tune, the less drag you need, and drag is noise, so I figure a tuned arrow is a quiet arrow.

And I’m not a big fan of vented blades anyhow.

If you want a quiet bow, a heavier arrow helps. A heavier arrow is a slower arrow, but guess what? Drag increases exponentially with velocity. So speed is drag and drag is noise; so the quietest arrow of all is the one they walk right into....

I would definitely check out the dB meter app, though; I was at the club last week or so and my son was shooting one of my LBs, and I had NO IDEA how quiet that bow is until I heard somebody else shooting it....

Holding it in your hand, the perceived sound level goes WAY up.... Human perception....

We will have to agree to disagree at least on the whitetail deer I’ve had experience with in Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Kansas, and Missouri

Here is reality, modern compounds are very quiet in comparison to older ones. Deer can and will jump at the string noise. However, that isn’t the issue as much as it was 30 years ago.

Watch modern hunting shows where they do the slow motion follow ups. Often, you all an at ease animal not react to the bow noise if they are out past 25 or so yards. Instead, they continue feeding until they hear the arrow.

you guys that chimed in about "heavy arrows" and "tuned bow" are defiantly on the right track. these are the two most important factors in my opinion - after these two things - anything that you can do to get more stealth in your set up is a good thing - as long as you don't compromise your setup.

my bow is set at 74 lbs 28" draw - bowtech realm. shooting 490 grain .300 spine with 150 grain tips 4 fletch AAE Max Stealth - with 150 grain right bevel Helix broadhead shoots about 276fps ( been a while since i've chrono) Yoke tuned with bare shafts - right out of center shot - this bow is tuned well for my grip.

Its really really quiet at the shot and in flight.

Just a simple test you should try. set your Iphone below your target and record your arrow on its way to the target - do it with fixed blades, mechanicals, field points, and different variations and see the difference. shoot from 20 yards - then from 50 yards...

I feel like if i can hear the difference - then surely a deer can.

i don't know which causes the deer to react more - bow noise or arrow noise - but i know at times they do hear both.

Yep, and do it with a dB meter that records the data so you’ve got the numbers right in front of you....

Because, DATA.

I would like to agree with you on that, but their hearing is so much better than ours that I don’t think you can begin to compare it.

One thing that’s for absolute certain, though… The shorter the shot, the less reaction time they have. But you have to balance that against their propensity to blow up when there is a sudden, fairly loud, definitely unnatural sound inside of their comfort zone.

That’s one reason that I don’t quite understand the practice of getting them to stop with a grunt or whatever… even though it’s a relatively natural sound, it does put them on alert and focuses their attention in your direction.

I like my chances better swinging on a moving animal that might stop over aiming at a motionless animal that might blow up on me.

Less than 20, the noise is louder but the arrow gets there quicker. Further than 20, less noise but more time for the deer to react before the arrow hits. I will say, this was done when compound bows were a little slower than they are now.

At 300 ft./s, 60 feet takes 1/5 of a second, and that’s assuming that your arrow is not slowing down AT ALL due to aerodynamic drag, which is of course not possible.

Humans have a reaction time about 1/10 of a second, so at that rate a deer has a 10th of a second to begin its reaction and another 10th in which to execute on it.

Which is not a lot, but it’s not nothing either...

You sure about that??

The same muscles that you use to do sit ups are muscles that a deer could use to yank the front half of its body down to the ground, and I think that if they are ducking some flying object, they would make a serious effort at it.

If a batter sees a heater coming at his ear, do you think he’s just gonna go limp and let gravity do the work??

I can only speak for myself, I guess, but I sure as hell wouldn’t!

Whatever will be next??

Besides; you brought it up. Literally. LOL...

In his very long bowhunting life my father-in-law shot two deer that simply looked up when the 2 blade broadhead went through their chest. Then they went back to feeding until they fell over.

You want a quiet arrow get a longbow and shoot 600 grains out of it.

You got to think that they react to silent animals coming at them from feet away (mtn lions)

Some vanes are very loud. You can hear them coming like a jet. If a human standing down Range can hear that coming an animal can forsure.

I once listened to a guy shoot at 100 yards. He was shooting blazers. I could hardly hear the sound of the bow going off...but the arrow sounded like a jet hiss coming at me getting louder and louder.

For close shots I think the reaction is bow noise. But what about further shots? 50 yards 60 yards? When an animal does a matrix move to get out of the way of your arrow you can’t tell me they are doing that because of bow noise

It seems deer that are 35 yards or so, the few that I have shot that far, do not react to the bow shot like a deer at 20-25 yards.

But there are feathers, and then there are feathers… We had guys on the Wall about ready to throw down over 5 inch, high-profile parabolics and shields versus relatively compact 2 inchers.

But FWIW.... feathers zipping through the air is a natural sound. The clunk of a compound, not so much. And those little vanes that are supposed to really stabilize your arrow quickly? That takes work... moving air.... which produces sound waves. So I suspect that stabilization and noise levels are inextricably linked.

And also FWIW... drag increases exponentially with speed, so the faster the arrow, the more noise you’re in for.

The scenario is obvious. It’s quiet, the deer may or may not be on high alert, the bow fires, and it’s in high gear to get the hell out of there.

Hell, some deer don’t even duck.

Animals do I fact react to bow noise as well. Couple the two noise makers together and you can get sone real problems.

What happens when you have a sudden twig snap or knock your stand by accident? 9 times out of 10 a deer jerks their head around to look at you or their body has a jerk reaction but they don’t duck and run. It’s a sound. They locate and investigate. My bow is so quiet it’s hardly noticeable. Waaaaaaay quieter than these accidental noises. I would never expect a deer to duck and run from the bow noise. Yet I’ve had many deer duck and run when being shot at ESPECIALLY 33-45 yards. At a distance where the small thump of a bow isn’t even an immediate danger. I firmly believe it’s the hiss and also why I make sure to shoot quiet broadheads as well. Vented fixed blades are the worst for noise. I love the solid Iron Wills for this if I need a fixed blade.

It’s possible.

I have also visibly seen and seen on videos where deer react to a sound well after the sound of the bow going off would have reached them. I’ve seen my arrow in flight and seen a buck only react once the arrow was almost there. Had it been the bow noise he would have moved earlier. An incoming hiss out of nowhere getting louder is a reason to move.

Nope.

Download a free dB meter onto your phone - one that will hold/record the data at least temporarily - and set things up so that you can shoot just over it. The recording will include the sound of the bow and the sound of the arrow smacking the backstop, with the sound of the arrow passing in between. Then you can test all you want.....

But FWIW...

It sure does help if their ears are pointed the other way.

It’s possible.

I have also visibly seen and seen on videos where deer react to a sound well after the sound of the bow going off would have reached them. I’ve seen my arrow in flight and seen a buck only react once the arrow was almost there. Had it been the bow noise he would have moved earlier. An incoming hiss out of nowhere getting louder is a reason to move.

Take for instance, if you sharply yell at a deer, they'll snap their head up and you'll probably see some snappy muscle movement in the body as it prepares for flight. I think the bow is the initial attention grabber, and the arrow noise could be the clincher. Acceleration due to gravity takes over as the deer begins to lift its legs to let its body drop (whoever said they can pull themselves down - that makes no sense) to plant its feet and spring. The deer's reaction time combined with gravity is an event measured in hundreds or tenths of a second. The rest is up to arrow speed/ distance to subject, and the individual deer's responsiveness.

No doubt a quiet bow, and quiet arrow build all helps.... but no archery equipment is faster than 343m/s, and a deer's reaction speed ability.

Someone needs to film shooting a bow as if taking a shot at a deer, say 20-30 yards, but shoot the arrow in the opposite direction of the deer and film the deer's reaction. Do this many times to gather an average reaction sampling. I'd bet money they always flinch before sharply becoming upright and alert...but I also bet they don't always bolt!

Anyone who's ever intentionally tried to spook a deer within archery range with a sudden loud sound would know this. I've seen it a lot when I try to clear a field with a fast bark & howl combo. Deer flinch and heads shoot up, but they don't usually run right away as they assess the response required. :)

Of course it does.

Saying they can’t pull down is like saying that they can’t back up.

You guys are looking at the wrong end of the animal. Hip flexors and abdominals. Hind feet are planted, so when those groups contract, the whole front end gets pulled down and back.

Ever see slow motion footage. Feet often lift clear off the ground in the action of taking off... indicating the deer can lift its feet at a faster rate than gravity pulls. How the hell does an animal with floating feet pull itself down? C'mon Matt.

While spending days in a blind, I often experiment to see what I can get away with on deer I'm not going to shoot. The one noise that always get an immediate reaction is a sharp sniffing sound. Thumps, bumps, creaks, coughs, farts and even sneezes often only get a casual glance. But these are mule deer. The blondes of the deer world.

Edited out of my last post:

“Same muscles I use to beat my head against the keyboard because you guys can’t Anatomy.”

LOL

Not sure about comparing a vertically oriented body to a horizontally oriented. We have a major advantage over a deer in that comparison.

All the deer can do its lift or extend it legs. In the event of a lift, the abdomen might be contracted toward its hinds slightly as the hinds contract/ rise, while the front legs lift to extend outward or forward, but only to the extent where any downward "pull" stops as soon as its feet leave the ground. They were never anchored. Therefore its almost entirely gravity taking over. Which is instantaneous, albeit not faster, initially, than the deer is at lifting its legs.

Just watch this video at 1/4 playback speed. Look at that deer pull it self down with that six pack of abs.... amazing!!

If the deer flexes (“lifts”) its forelegs, it’s shifting all of its weight to the hind feet. At which point they are pretty well anchored in the dirt (fore and aft - NOT vertically) for the hip flexors to work against. Back end anchored, front end free. They're not doing crunches here; they’re using hip flexors to decrease the angle between the femur and the spine, which drives the front end down. It's like a batter or a boxer settling into his stance to swing a bat or a fist; the Power comes from the hips. Why do golfers wear cleats??? They sure don’t need them for running....

And I’m not saying they react exactly the same way every time, either. But if they hear something coming at their head, they’re not gonna simply go rag-doll to get out of the way when a coordinated, reflexive, full-body movement will get them moving faster.

And FWIW, I wasted a few minutes on that video, and here’s what I noticed... Besides an extremely well coordinated reflexive movement...

That deer heard a sound approaching from somewhat behind it when she had her right hind foot in the air. She kept weight on the left, hind leg, and her left hip was the last part of her body to move. That tells me that that hip was what was moving everything else that wasn't tied down. Once the other three legs were bearing weight, the hip flexors yanked that left hind hoof off the ground and into the next stride.

I still don't believe a human provides a relevant comparison. Besides our abdominal structure differences... A humans center of gravity being above the hips means that the entire load is columnated straight down through our 2 legs to our 2 feet... so naturally humans utilize the primary balancing member of the body to manipulate the upper torso, while sufficient traction provides the positive reaction necessary from our feet upward... by way of skeletal structure and flexors or whatever the proper anatomical terms are.

The deers center of gravity is well forward of the hips which results in a biased weight distribution, which provides almost no natural biomechanical advantage when it comes pivoting about its hips (with the exception of going DOWN). The deer has to overcome gravity to extend as it leaps, or work with gravity as it drops. In that video it is clear that 3 legs begin to rise almost simultaneously and the left hind trails by a fraction of a second. That tells me that the left hind foot bears but a marginal increase in load, nor does it control the trajectory since, well, its beginning to lift, and the center of gravity remains the same! I can also see all 4 feet not touching the ground at 4:44 as the body continues to FALL... so not sure which video you watched? This tells me that gravity is doing the majority of the work in between actions. I'd say that hardly constitutes as "pulling" itself down... which was what started this whole debate lol.

Anyways.... the deer clearly hears the arrow.

That settles it!

#1 - who suggested that deer have telescoping legs?

#2 - what you believe does not alter reality.

The difficulty arises from the fact that you aren’t interested in understanding what’s happening; you’re just convinced that your first impression is correct and trying to prove that you are right.

So here’s what I know. Not sure what I think or what I believe, but what is established fact.

All vertebrates are built on the same basic blueprint; the musculature is all but identical from limbed amphibians on up, with only minor variations between origins and insertions in keeping with the changes in bone lever ratios. Like the difference between a badger and a cat. One is built for power and the other for speed. Humans are bipedal and other primates are quadrupeds. The musculature is virtually identical. So, so much for low relevance.

“ In that video it is clear that 3 legs begin to rise almost simultaneously and the left hind trails by a fraction of a second. That tells me that the left hind foot bears but a marginal increase in load...”

Ummm... it was already bearing more than half the weight of the entire animal, but , OK... so you’re saying that a quadruped balanced on 2 legs can raise a 3rd leg off the ground without more than a “marginal increase in load” on the fourth.

And that happens because.... Fairy dust??

And you’re saying that a deer CAN raise its legs at faster than the rate of acceleration due to gravity (G) but that the same muscles - acting against resistance - CANNOT move the body downward at faster than G?

And that in that “fraction of a second”, the one planted leg could not possibly have had any effect in moving the rest of the animal, despite a full-body, reflexive reaction?

FWIW, even if we concede the notion that all 4 hooves were lifted off the ground instantaneously, the muscles of the torso can ABSOLUTELY yank the front end of the animal downward at faster than G simply by acting against the inertia of the center of mass (already accelerating at G), the same as a cat that rotates mid-air to land on its feet. For that matter, just pulling the legs up off the ground will drive the rest of the body downward at >G, because Equal and Opposite. (I Physics pretty good, too...)

And the net learning is that if you take a 35 yard shot at a wired-up whitetail.... it’s gonna hit the fan. Especially if you’re too busy taking hero video to be focused on your shot execution.

#2 I'm not trying to alter reality. I'm trying to reason with you that physics has a greater net effect on what's occurring when the deer drops.

I am interested in what's happening, as I'm sure most would be here because it pertains to something we can all learn from. I am no more wrong in trying to defend my statement than you are yours, after all, the deer dropping by "pulling" itself down is not the whole truth. I will concede that I was not giving much credit to the musculature reaction driving body position to some extent, when I made my statement. Certainly the femur to spinal column angle decrease is going to help the front portion of the body pivot downward, and the tail end to lower, but the fact remains that the center of mass and gravity are helping tremendously to expedite the resultant positional move.

No the left hind leg does not bear more than half the weight of the animal... again, the center of mass does not change. IF the leg stayed planted and the deer didn't fall, your argument would hold as the weight definitely transfers with 1 fixed point of contact! However in this case the half the weight remains biased toward the animals chest as the moment of inertia drives in the clockwise direction about the femural head, and ultimately about the tip of the left hind hoof - which is already lifting off the ground.

"And you’re saying that a deer CAN raise its legs at faster than the rate of acceleration due to gravity (G) but that the same muscles - acting against resistance - CANNOT move the body downward at faster than G?" No I never said that. But I also didn't acknowledge that they possibly could be? That would be rather difficult to prove one way or the other. I would however refer to the video to decipher that one. The lifting legs indicate that it is moving the 2 major body elements (legs, torso) closer together at a rate faster than the acceleration due to gravity. The catch is that the hooves are not fixed so therefor the resultant reaction is the legs leaving ground, at which point they do nothing in the way of "pulling".

Your point about the equal but opposite reaction is absolutely true! Lifting the mass of the legs at a high rate of speed absolutely helps to generate the same quantity of an opposite reaction force acting downward on the upper torso.

Yes, I was wrong to an extent to say that the deer pulling itself down doesn't make sense. Then again there is semantics, you know...how it's all interpreted. The bottom line is that gravity is the deer's best friend when it comes to dropping quickly, and accounts for the brunt of the positional movement.

At this point I'm done debating this subject, as we've collectively beat it to death.

Scoot, up till today I’ve agreed with almost everything you’ve ever posted. . But, Apauls and ermine are right. As well as 12 yards, everyone else saying it, and myself. Arrow noise is over looked and often dismissed. But, it’s real and it’s loud! And animals react to it. Where we get in trouble is the bow noise startling them enough to get a running start that allows them to mess up an otherwise good shot.

On another note while spearing pike I have video of a fish spinning and ducking a spear as it was only a few inches from impact. Whether he saw, felt, or heard it don't know. Fish moved from nosing the decoy to a clean miss in 2 frames.

Because noise is created by drag, which increases exponentially with velocity....

I’m starting to think that maybe “faster” isn’t so much better as the speed merchants have been telling us.

A couple weeks ago while hunting Mule Deer and Coues Deer, depending on what I saw first, I was still hunting one evening about 30 minutes before dark. I look to my left and there is a Coues buck and doe staring a hole in me from about 100 yards. Then they both got a holeshot and were at full speed lickity split. I fumbled to get my rangefinder out and was able to range a juniper they would quickly be running past at 56 yards. These Coues obviously knew I was there but when they cleared that tree, they miraculously stopped. By this time I had an arrow on the string and my release was clipped. They had stopped past that tree and the juniper was bigger round than I anticipated. I guessed the Coues buck at 60 yards. What would have been a great 1st Coues. A 4x4. I touched of the 60 yard shot and shot under his body cavity. He was looking at me the whole time and didn’t even flinch until I saw the arrow bounce off the rocks under him. Then they got another holeshot and were gone in seconds. So my question is kinda 2 fold. If a whitetail deer is looking at you, is he less likely to jump or duck the string? Or more likely when they are unaware of your presence and here a foreign sound?

A buck will stand and take it a lot more often then a whitetail doe. And, the whitetail doe is by far more likely to cause you problems at the shot then any buck. Whether she is looking or not. Or even knows your presence. They look for reason to be on edge. Throw in being harassed by bucks and it can become very hard to hit a whitetail doe with a bow.

I realize Midwestern whitetail might not fit in that group. But, I promise you any whitetail in the east and south sure does.

It gets stated a lot. And, it’s true. Whitetail deer of all species are a different breed. They are so quick it’s impossible to describe it. Therefore, those that haven’t seen it first hand can’t fathom their ability. They are as fast as any squirrel. Which is remarkable considering they weight 100 times more then the average squirrel.

When they suddenly hear something screaming their way out of the clear blue, they seem more likely to come unglued - especially if they’re on edge to begin with.

On string jumpin' son's..... a scale of 1 to 10, bow noise IMO is an 8 or 9. Arrow noise may have some impact, but I'd give it a 2. Maybe. Feathers are the noisiest of fletching and I used to shoot 5" helicals with big ol school 3 blade snuffers on aluminum shafts. I think they started to make noise as they came out of the quiver (some seemed to whine like a bird dog knowing he's going hunting....) A one arrow band marching downrange. Notoriously loud, they called that combo "the hiss of death". Honestly I couldn't tell you if I had more jumpers now or then with a far noisier arrow.

First, the flight noise is so much more natural than the twang (or thump if you're lucky) of the bow going off it's no contest. These animals hear birds zipping by all day long. Secondly.... They don't just start to make noise partway to the target, that arrow is starting to make it's noise at full throttle, top speed before it's even fully off the string. How in the world would you differentiate the two noises as the cause? I'd give you the fact they make noise for a longer TIME than the bow..... but IMO it's the bow that sets the lil' string jumpers off.... If you're seeing any "delayed" reaction it's pretty much just that animal's reaction.

But... I like playing with arrows and trying new heads and such too. Ought to see what's stuffed in my quiver any given day.... trigger the OCD guys into a seizure. Different combinations may not have the effect or be the cure anyone is looking for, but as with many things we do..... likely can't hurt....

WRT one of the questions above, I'll take a calm walking shot on an axis over stopping him every time. When you stop him you can see em wind up..... I hear coues are are wound particularly tight, going to find out someday. But these axis are some real buggers sometimes, elk and muleys seem like they are on prozac....

I’ll just put out a bait pile and dust it with Xanax. Then I’ll never miss again!!!

I do wonder, though.... Do you suppose they can hear how fast the arrow is coming? Because at compound speeds, they’re unnaturally fast. Even stickbows shoot at raptor-in-full-stoop speeds, but a light shaft from a compound is pushing 2X what a lot of Stickbow guys are using...

But you know....

If a wired-up deer tries to dodge one of my “slow” arrows like that doe in the video did..... She’d probably go unscathed...

That wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest… I figure with those great big ears stretching far apart, they can probably localize the source of a sound way better than we can, which means that they can tell when it’s coming straight at them or if it’s going to pass them at some angle. So the one that you’re shooting at would naturally have the most reason to duck.

I do think, though, that they are simple-minded enough that they cannot process two kinds of threat at once. So if they have identified you as a big, suspicious blob, and they hear something small and fast coming in their direction, they are probably more likely to be preoccupied with the big blob... and if you aren’t moving at them in some aggressive fashion, they may not give much attention to the audio signal.

At least if they’ve never been shot at before.

No good. You have no way of gauging how suspicious/wired one animal is versus the other. not beyond an impression, anyway. In order to make it worth doing, it has to be objectively quantifiable.

Bottom line is that a quieter bow and quieter arrow are likely to trigger less of a response, and that’s a good thing.

Also a good thing is the fact that the heavier arrow tends to quiet the bow and quiet the arrow in flight, as well as alleviate any “need“ for a mechanical head, so you get to use a head with a 0% failure-to-deploy rate, the animal is less likely to jump on you, and accuracy is not compromised while penetration is maximized.

100% Good.

Then it’s just up to you to not take stupid shots at wired-up animals.

Each situation is different. And, bow noise is a factor you’d better be paying attention too. But, arrow noise does indeed play a huge factor at ranges where the bow just can’t be heard over the noise of the arrow coming down range.

Was there a difference between the 2 vanes in noise? If so which one was the quietest?

There was a comment about lit up nocks earlier. Shooting at very last light on a dark night I think totally has the potential to freak a deer out when a light appears out of nowhere and comes blazing at them. Couple that with bow and arrow noise and you’re simply compounding your chances. The more you add the worse your chances get IMO.

I guess it would be easy enough to shoot at a mark a few feet away from your phone while you take a video... Interesting thing, though…

Last night I was shooting a mixed quiver, with some of my arrows at 10 GPP and some at 7. With the heavier arrows, I heard just the low Thump of the string; at 7, it sounded like a high-pitched tuning fork. And for me to hear anything high-pitched on my left side, it has to be LOUD.

Kinda nice to be point-on right at 50, though....

I may be mistaken on this point, but I don’t recall Snuffers ever being all that popular with compound shooters. At least not since they got to be appreciably faster than recurves.

I’m thinking it may be the sound of something approaching at an unnaturally high velocity that trips that trigger...

However, one thing that's more apparent to me after watching this video, is that I can't perceive a difference in noise level between the various vane types PRIOR to the arrow passing by. But each time the bow goes off, it sounds the same, and is easily more discernable to me than the approaching arrow. Maybe that last 10 or so yards of approach is enough for the deer to react to the sound of the arrow? Unscientifically speaking of course - I'm not totally convinced a deer could discern a difference between the bow sound and approaching arrow sound in say the first 50 yards... at least based on the audio in these test videos.