Mathews Inc.
The Quiet Arrow
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
olebuck 16-Sep-20
Scoot 16-Sep-20
Mpdh 16-Sep-20
LINK 16-Sep-20
JL 16-Sep-20
12yards 16-Sep-20
olebuck 16-Sep-20
GhostBird 16-Sep-20
greg simon 16-Sep-20
beemann 16-Sep-20
Dale06 16-Sep-20
smarba 16-Sep-20
APauls 16-Sep-20
Buffalo1 16-Sep-20
Scoot 16-Sep-20
Rickm 16-Sep-20
GF 16-Sep-20
bowhunter24 16-Sep-20
IdyllwildArcher 16-Sep-20
Twinetickler 17-Sep-20
Zim 17-Sep-20
MichaelArnette 17-Sep-20
Reggiezpop 17-Sep-20
MichaelArnette 17-Sep-20
WV Mountaineer 17-Sep-20
Bou'bound 17-Sep-20
Scoot 17-Sep-20
olebuck 17-Sep-20
GF 17-Sep-20
Thornton 17-Sep-20
GhostBird 17-Sep-20
GF 17-Sep-20
Mpdh 17-Sep-20
12yards 17-Sep-20
GF 17-Sep-20
Boone 17-Sep-20
GF 17-Sep-20
GF 17-Sep-20
12yards 18-Sep-20
Shrewski 18-Sep-20
GF 18-Sep-20
Bou'bound 20-Sep-20
GF 20-Sep-20
Glunt@work 20-Sep-20
LKH 20-Sep-20
WV Mountaineer 20-Sep-20
GF 20-Sep-20
smarba 21-Sep-20
Ermine 01-Feb-21
Ermine 01-Feb-21
Candor 01-Feb-21
GF 01-Feb-21
Glunt@work 02-Feb-21
rhoggman 02-Feb-21
TREESTANDWOLF 02-Feb-21
CraigL 02-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 02-Feb-21
APauls 02-Feb-21
12yards 02-Feb-21
3arrows 02-Feb-21
Gileguy 02-Feb-21
APauls 02-Feb-21
jstephens61 02-Feb-21
GF 02-Feb-21
12yards 02-Feb-21
GF 02-Feb-21
APauls 02-Feb-21
Scoot 03-Feb-21
SaddleReaper 03-Feb-21
GF 03-Feb-21
SaddleReaper 03-Feb-21
Ambush 03-Feb-21
Ironbow-cell 04-Feb-21
12yards 04-Feb-21
Scoot 04-Feb-21
GF 04-Feb-21
SaddleReaper 04-Feb-21
GF 05-Feb-21
SaddleReaper 06-Feb-21
GF 06-Feb-21
SaddleReaper 06-Feb-21
Beachtree 06-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 06-Feb-21
Dale06 06-Feb-21
Tonybear61 06-Feb-21
3arrows 06-Feb-21
Scoot 06-Feb-21
GF 07-Feb-21
trophyhill 07-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 07-Feb-21
GF 09-Feb-21
Ollie 09-Feb-21
TD 10-Feb-21
GF 10-Feb-21
goyt 10-Feb-21
SaddleReaper 11-Feb-21
GF 11-Feb-21
nchunter 12-Feb-21
GF 13-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 13-Feb-21
goyt 13-Feb-21
BR 14-Feb-21
APauls 14-Feb-21
GF 14-Feb-21
jjs 14-Feb-21
GF 14-Feb-21
beemann 14-Feb-21
SaddleReaper 30-Mar-21
From: olebuck
16-Sep-20
I've bow hunted my entire life. 36 years old - Killed my first on public land at 14 years old. What I love the most about bow hunting - is you can always improve, become a better shot, a better hunter, the equipment gets better.. On and on...

I'm satisfied 100% with my equipment - a newer Bowtech with all the good accessories - tuned to perfection and shoots great.

The point of this post is the prove that a deer can react to the noise of the arrow flight as much or than the sound of the bow going off.

On multiple instances i have had this exact scenario happen...

Up a tree 20' Still afternoon, doe at 23 yards, aim low in the arm pit, hit her good. The exit hole comes out higher than the entry hole - Indicating that the deer Ducked and Lunged away from the arrow. I think the deer could hear the arrow coming - other wise they would not go away from the arrow.

this is not a one off instance - i've killed alot of deer with a bow - and i'm a student on every single shot i take...

So i did some testing with a good video camera and a external microphone. shooting past the camera into the target. ( i only tested fixed blades - that's all i shoot) Vented Broadheads make alot of wind Noise in flight. Blazer vanes make alot of wind noise in flight.

This year i set out to make the quietest Arrow i could This was the winner

i Fletched with AAE stealth Max, and Silent knight vanes and paired with helix 150 grain right bevel broadheads - (unvented two blad) This set up was ALOT quieter than anything else i tested, it flies really really quiet - the only sound i hear is the thud of bow going off - and the target impact....

maybe i am going overboard - but i want the quietest set up that i can get - and i always want to improve as an archer and a hunter.

share your thoughts....

From: Scoot
16-Sep-20
olebuck, are you talking about the noise from the arrow in flight or the noise from your bow when you shoot said arrow? It sounds like you're talking about the latter. I'm more concerned about the former- I want my bow to shoot the arrow quietly. Just looking for a little clarification...

From: Mpdh
16-Sep-20
How do you know the deer didn’t react to movement of bow limbs or string hand etc?

From: LINK
16-Sep-20
Anyone that’s stood down the firing line and maybe slightly forward of someone shooting knows that an arrow can be noisy. I don’t think fletchings are near as noisy as a vented broadhead. I like shooting solids for this reason. Vented broadheads sound like a Mack truck coming. Solids are comparatively silent.

From: JL
16-Sep-20
I think it's also possible the deer can see the arrow coming. If I can see it going downrange, I suspect they can see it incoming and can react.

From: 12yards
16-Sep-20
I really struggle with the arrow noise thing. I think by the time an animal can hear and determine the arrow noise is dangerous, it's too late. Bow noise on the other hand, I think deer absolutely react to and have experienced this first hand. I could possibly see on a long shot where a deer is not alarmed by bow noise, the arrow noise might spook the animal. But I question whether they could mentally process the arrow noise as dangerous and then react in time. I just don't buy it. I think the bow noise causes most reaction which is loud and sudden compared to arrow noise that gradually increases in noise as it approaches like a big bumble bee flying by.

From: olebuck
16-Sep-20
The deer definitely hear the bow going off - and i believe they also hear the arrow approaching impact. the fact that in some cases the deer move away from the arrow implies the deer can hear it coming...

Its very important to have a quite bow - i believe its also important to have a quite arrow.

From: GhostBird
16-Sep-20
I shoot a heavier than required arrow for deer for this exact reason, a few extra grains of arrow weight definitely makes for a quieter shot. Not so worried about a flat shooting arrow, as most of my shots are within 25 yards. I also like unvented broadheads.

From: greg simon
16-Sep-20
A quiet arrow can only be to your advantage. Assuming no compromises were made in performance to reduce noise. The sound of the bow firing comes from the same direction as the arrow so it is difficult to determine which sound an animal is reacting to. I tend to believe bow noise causes more animal reaction than arrow noise.

From: beemann
16-Sep-20
Stand downrange and listen to the arrow go past it is an eye-opener . Your on the right track Olebuck....

From: Dale06
16-Sep-20
What Mpdh said above. And don’t over think things. Alert deer are often going to react to abnormal noise, like a bow firing. They are crouching to run, not dodge your arrow. Now go kill something.

From: smarba
16-Sep-20
When I let Scoot shoot an apple off my head, the arrow sounded loud to me LOL

That's the last time I let him use me as a guinea pig for a sound experiment...

From: APauls
16-Sep-20
I agree wholeheartedly. Also shoot solid fixed blades!

From: Buffalo1
16-Sep-20
Jim, this is a great discussion question. The animal that I have experience the greatest "string duck" is an impala- even more so than a whitetail deer. I have shot 7 and have lost 3 due to "string duck" and missing the lungs (drew blood but missed lungs) I have also experienced that the larger the animal size , the less "string duck" is an issue. Examples that come to mind include elk, moose, bison and larger African plains game.

This reverts to the question that expands the question i.e. what is essential- a quiet arrow or a quiet bow or both or does it depend on the animal size?

From: Scoot
16-Sep-20
Haha Carl, and that was after a 6 pack of beer!

Olebuck- the deer moving away from the approaching arrow is also moving away from the sound of the bow. Which is the deer reacting to? How can you tell given they are completely confounded with each other? Personally, i don't believe the arrow plays near the role that the bow does. Sounds like you disagree with that.

From: Rickm
16-Sep-20
Yep, I am in the deer reacted to the sound of the bow camp. Speed of sound is pretty well established. I feel they react before the arrow is off the string. Usually the closer shots.

From: GF
16-Sep-20
There are a LOT of free decibel-meter apps out there that you can use; they may not be properly calibrated to be absolutely accurate, but that should not prevent it from telling you how loud one arrow is compared to the other.

Anyway, it has to be more accurate than human perception & recollection. Just remember that dB are on a log scale, so the size of the gap may not seem like much on paper.....

It always seemed to me that the sound of feathers zipping through the air would not be all that alarming to a deer or Elk - birds must do it to them all the time - but then I shot a few arrows with “traditional” cut fletching that had the long, unsupported section in back and they damn near startled ME!

That’s why I’m getting fussy about tuning - the better your tune, the less drag you need, and drag is noise, so I figure a tuned arrow is a quiet arrow.

And I’m not a big fan of vented blades anyhow.

If you want a quiet bow, a heavier arrow helps. A heavier arrow is a slower arrow, but guess what? Drag increases exponentially with velocity. So speed is drag and drag is noise; so the quietest arrow of all is the one they walk right into....

I would definitely check out the dB meter app, though; I was at the club last week or so and my son was shooting one of my LBs, and I had NO IDEA how quiet that bow is until I heard somebody else shooting it....

Holding it in your hand, the perceived sound level goes WAY up.... Human perception....

From: bowhunter24
16-Sep-20
I remember seeing a Bowhunter T.V. episode where one of the guys held up a deer target on a pole beside a building. When the other guy shot his bow he would lower the paper target simulating a deer's drop. It worked pretty much every time the guy was faster than the arrow. Seems like he was shooting around 270 fps. I am of the camp alert deer aren't good to shoot at now matter what your setup is.

16-Sep-20
Unless you're close. If you look at the slo-mo videos of deer ducking the string, they don't make the duck till the last moment. I just don't think that a deer in the 5-15 yard range out of a tree has much of a chance to duck the string. Some chance, but not much. Push that shot out to 30 and you can completely miss. I've had several Coues deer jump the string and at 30ish, it's a mile behind them. even at 15ish, you're still hitting high and back from where you aimed, but you're still hitting them.

From: Twinetickler
17-Sep-20
That's why I use owl feathers....

From: Zim
17-Sep-20
Sounds like you wound up in a similar spot as I did. The only detail you left out was arrow speed and weight. If one shoots a heavy arrow with a solid fixed blade broadhead you’ll have night and day difference from the “average” speed setup. I suspect you got a good arrangement there

17-Sep-20
Yeah I am not of that school of thought. The reason being that I have shot self pose that are whisper quiet but have whistling feathers. The deer do not react, a little bit of extra noise on my recurve or the average compound different story.

We will have to agree to disagree at least on the whitetail deer I’ve had experience with in Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Kansas, and Missouri

From: Reggiezpop
17-Sep-20
To the guys that are in the don’t shoot an alert deer camp, do you ever stop a walking deer or shoot while it’s walking? I feel stopping a deer does more harm for my concentration then it does alerting the deer.

17-Sep-20
*selfbows

17-Sep-20
Anyone confused about deer reacting to arrow noise, pick up a trad bow. You’ll see it just fine.

Here is reality, modern compounds are very quiet in comparison to older ones. Deer can and will jump at the string noise. However, that isn’t the issue as much as it was 30 years ago.

Watch modern hunting shows where they do the slow motion follow ups. Often, you all an at ease animal not react to the bow noise if they are out past 25 or so yards. Instead, they continue feeding until they hear the arrow.

From: Bou'bound
17-Sep-20
Hearing something and being able to do something to affect the outcome as a result in a fraction of a second are two different things

From: Scoot
17-Sep-20
Bou, I agree. However, if your point is that deer can't duck a shot, then I disagree. I have absolutely, unequivocally seen it 1st hand multiple times.

From: olebuck
17-Sep-20
Lots of good info here! thanks to you guys that chimed in on the discussion.

you guys that chimed in about "heavy arrows" and "tuned bow" are defiantly on the right track. these are the two most important factors in my opinion - after these two things - anything that you can do to get more stealth in your set up is a good thing - as long as you don't compromise your setup.

my bow is set at 74 lbs 28" draw - bowtech realm. shooting 490 grain .300 spine with 150 grain tips 4 fletch AAE Max Stealth - with 150 grain right bevel Helix broadhead shoots about 276fps ( been a while since i've chrono) Yoke tuned with bare shafts - right out of center shot - this bow is tuned well for my grip.

Its really really quiet at the shot and in flight.

Just a simple test you should try. set your Iphone below your target and record your arrow on its way to the target - do it with fixed blades, mechanicals, field points, and different variations and see the difference. shoot from 20 yards - then from 50 yards...

I feel like if i can hear the difference - then surely a deer can.

i don't know which causes the deer to react more - bow noise or arrow noise - but i know at times they do hear both.

From: GF
17-Sep-20
“ Just a simple test you should try. set your Iphone below your target and record your arrow on its way to the target - do it with fixed blades, mechanicals, field points, and different variations and see the difference. shoot from 20 yards - then from 50 yards...”

Yep, and do it with a dB meter that records the data so you’ve got the numbers right in front of you....

Because, DATA.

From: Thornton
17-Sep-20
If you think about the speed of sound, the deer is reacting to the bow rather than the arrow. If you've stood near a target and listened to the zip of an arrow, it's too late by the time they've heard the arrow IMO. I could be wrong, but that's what I've observed.

From: GhostBird
17-Sep-20
When your set up allows for the arrow to be faster than the speed of sound, then your onto something.

From: GF
17-Sep-20
“ If you've stood near a target and listened to the zip of an arrow, it's too late by the time they've heard the arrow ”

I would like to agree with you on that, but their hearing is so much better than ours that I don’t think you can begin to compare it.

One thing that’s for absolute certain, though… The shorter the shot, the less reaction time they have. But you have to balance that against their propensity to blow up when there is a sudden, fairly loud, definitely unnatural sound inside of their comfort zone.

That’s one reason that I don’t quite understand the practice of getting them to stop with a grunt or whatever… even though it’s a relatively natural sound, it does put them on alert and focuses their attention in your direction.

I like my chances better swinging on a moving animal that might stop over aiming at a motionless animal that might blow up on me.

From: Mpdh
17-Sep-20
Seems like I read something yrs ago about a study done on this subject. I think it was decided that 20 yds was the best distance to take the shot. This was based on the noise level a deer hears when a bow is shot, and the time it takes for the arrow to hit.

Less than 20, the noise is louder but the arrow gets there quicker. Further than 20, less noise but more time for the deer to react before the arrow hits. I will say, this was done when compound bows were a little slower than they are now.

From: 12yards
17-Sep-20
When does the animal hear the arrow and react? Is it loud enough as it leaves the bow? Is it alarming when it's within 15 yards of the animal? When? I think by the time instincts tell the animal "get the hell outa here!", it's too late. Bow noise however is different. They hear that right away. I believe the 20 yard rule. If they're outside 20, they can react.

From: GF
17-Sep-20
Like the old half-joke about the advantage of a slow bow being that any deer that tries to get out of the way will have time to get ALL THE WAY out of the way before the arrow gets there...

From: Boone
17-Sep-20
Anyone actually have a shot clock per say on how long your aarow takes to go 20 yards? Quick math says 20 yards equals 60 feet your bow shoots 300 fps. Once the aarow leaves the bow it's already to late for the deer to react to the aarow noise. So I guess I'm on the quiet the bow down side compared to quiet the aarow down.

From: GF
17-Sep-20
LOL.... There’s no way in hell any of my bows will shoot a hunting arrow much more than 180 FPS.... with a strong tailwind!

From: GF
17-Sep-20
And FWIW...

At 300 ft./s, 60 feet takes 1/5 of a second, and that’s assuming that your arrow is not slowing down AT ALL due to aerodynamic drag, which is of course not possible.

Humans have a reaction time about 1/10 of a second, so at that rate a deer has a 10th of a second to begin its reaction and another 10th in which to execute on it.

Which is not a lot, but it’s not nothing either...

From: 12yards
18-Sep-20
Yes, and then there's the whole gravity thing. The deer isn't pulling itself down, it is merely dropping due to gravity as it lets its legs buckle under themselves. What is the acceleration of gravity equation?

From: Shrewski
18-Sep-20
Acceleration due to gravity is 32 feet per second squared

From: GF
18-Sep-20
“ The deer isn't pulling itself down...”

You sure about that??

The same muscles that you use to do sit ups are muscles that a deer could use to yank the front half of its body down to the ground, and I think that if they are ducking some flying object, they would make a serious effort at it.

If a batter sees a heater coming at his ear, do you think he’s just gonna go limp and let gravity do the work??

I can only speak for myself, I guess, but I sure as hell wouldn’t!

From: Bou'bound
20-Sep-20
This debate has been fought before

From: GF
20-Sep-20
What??? On Bowsite???

Whatever will be next??

Besides; you brought it up. Literally. LOL...

From: Glunt@work
20-Sep-20
The noise of the shot/arrow flight gets to a deer about 4X faster than the arrow does for guys shooting modern stuff. If we could deer hunt on the moon they wouldn't hear it coming.

From: LKH
20-Sep-20
The reason a deer can move at the sound if that unlike humans, they don't have to make an observation followed by a decision. They simply react.

In his very long bowhunting life my father-in-law shot two deer that simply looked up when the 2 blade broadhead went through their chest. Then they went back to feeding until they fell over.

You want a quiet arrow get a longbow and shoot 600 grains out of it.

20-Sep-20
Feathers are not the definition of quite. 600 grains arrows or not.

From: GF
20-Sep-20

GF's embedded Photo
GF's embedded Photo
There you go.

From: smarba
21-Sep-20
Feathers are definitely "quite". Quite loud, quite a pain in wet weather, quite light, and quite trendy in an old school sort of way. But they aren't "quiet". LOL

From: Ermine
01-Feb-21
I believe animals will react to arrow noise. Sure they react to bow noise and that’s probably majority of the time. But I am certain some species and some instances are result of the animal reacting to the arrow.

You got to think that they react to silent animals coming at them from feet away (mtn lions)

Some vanes are very loud. You can hear them coming like a jet. If a human standing down Range can hear that coming an animal can forsure.

I once listened to a guy shoot at 100 yards. He was shooting blazers. I could hardly hear the sound of the bow going off...but the arrow sounded like a jet hiss coming at me getting louder and louder.

For close shots I think the reaction is bow noise. But what about further shots? 50 yards 60 yards? When an animal does a matrix move to get out of the way of your arrow you can’t tell me they are doing that because of bow noise

From: Ermine
01-Feb-21

From: Candor
01-Feb-21
I am in the bow noise is the problem camp. I could see if you were shooting deer at 60 yards the arrow noise might be an issue.

It seems deer that are 35 yards or so, the few that I have shot that far, do not react to the bow shot like a deer at 20-25 yards.

From: GF
01-Feb-21
I’m not going to argue that feathers are quieter than vanes, because I’m not sure that they are....

But there are feathers, and then there are feathers… We had guys on the Wall about ready to throw down over 5 inch, high-profile parabolics and shields versus relatively compact 2 inchers.

But FWIW.... feathers zipping through the air is a natural sound. The clunk of a compound, not so much. And those little vanes that are supposed to really stabilize your arrow quickly? That takes work... moving air.... which produces sound waves. So I suspect that stabilization and noise levels are inextricably linked.

And also FWIW... drag increases exponentially with speed, so the faster the arrow, the more noise you’re in for.

From: Glunt@work
02-Feb-21
The Twin Strike solves this. I sight the bottom bolt in 11" low and pull both triggers. They can duck all they want.

From: rhoggman
02-Feb-21
Heavy arrows significantly reduce bow noise. Since your shooting a heavy draw weight try a 200 grain insert and a 200-300 grain broadhead. You'll be flabbergasted by how much it dampens the bow noise. Also it will reduce drag on the arrow. Some of the arrow noise is due to drag or the rate at which your arrow is slowing down.

02-Feb-21
While there is really no argument that an arrow makes some noise, close or down range, a deer definitely “ ducks” based on the bow firing the arrow.

The scenario is obvious. It’s quiet, the deer may or may not be on high alert, the bow fires, and it’s in high gear to get the hell out of there.

Hell, some deer don’t even duck.

From: CraigL
02-Feb-21

CraigL's embedded Photo
CraigL's embedded Photo
This is my "highly scientific" calculation of how far my arrow gets away from my recurve before the sound of the shot reaches the deer. If the deer is at 20 yards and my bow shoots an arrow at 160 fps my arrow is only 8' from me when the deer hears it. Feel free to check my math, it's not one of my strong points. :)

02-Feb-21
Arrow noise causing reaction is a very real thing. Don’t believe me? Shoot at a whitetail deer at 30 plus yards with a trad bow.

Animals do I fact react to bow noise as well. Couple the two noise makers together and you can get sone real problems.

From: APauls
02-Feb-21
I’m with Ermine on this. I think arrow noise is a way larger proponent than most people think.

What happens when you have a sudden twig snap or knock your stand by accident? 9 times out of 10 a deer jerks their head around to look at you or their body has a jerk reaction but they don’t duck and run. It’s a sound. They locate and investigate. My bow is so quiet it’s hardly noticeable. Waaaaaaay quieter than these accidental noises. I would never expect a deer to duck and run from the bow noise. Yet I’ve had many deer duck and run when being shot at ESPECIALLY 33-45 yards. At a distance where the small thump of a bow isn’t even an immediate danger. I firmly believe it’s the hiss and also why I make sure to shoot quiet broadheads as well. Vented fixed blades are the worst for noise. I love the solid Iron Wills for this if I need a fixed blade.

From: 12yards
02-Feb-21
Close shots I think it is bow noise. And I used to not believe the arrow noise thing, until I shot my MN buck last fall at about 35 yards. My arrow is a 486 grain with a 150 grain Magnus Stinger 4 blade and Blazer vanes in a moderate right helical. I distinctly recall the sound of the arrow flying toward that deer. That is the furthest deer harvest in my long bowhunting career and the sound of the arrow really opened my eyes (ears). I ended up spining that buck and I honestly don't know if he reacted to my bow noise or I just aimed high. But I can imagine on a longer shot, say 35-60+ yards, that an animal could react to that arrow noise. It was that loud! It is so hard to prove though because you would need an absolutely silent bow to observe it. Not sure that exists. The question is, does a deer duck and run every time a hummingbird or big bumblebee flies by? They are pretty wound tight animals, so who knows.

From: 3arrows
02-Feb-21
Are expandables quiet and what would be the a quiet vane ?

From: Gileguy
02-Feb-21
We were shooting in my basement one day, about 15 yrs. From behind the fireplace wall I could listen for bow/arrow noise. For fun I would lift my hand above my shoulder and try to slap my thigh before the arrow hit the target. I could this so easy that I'm pretty sure with your eyes closed you could drop a target out of an arrow's path from as close as 10 yards.

From: APauls
02-Feb-21
Well of you’re arrow is 250 fps and you had a perfect reaction time of 0 seconds l, something dropping at speed of gravity would fall roughly 3.5 feet if you dropped it at the same time as you shot a bow and the arrow went 10 yards. If that makes any grammatical sense. 10 yards, 3.5 feet.

It’s possible.

I have also visibly seen and seen on videos where deer react to a sound well after the sound of the bow going off would have reached them. I’ve seen my arrow in flight and seen a buck only react once the arrow was almost there. Had it been the bow noise he would have moved earlier. An incoming hiss out of nowhere getting louder is a reason to move.

From: jstephens61
02-Feb-21
Reminds me of a customer that didn’t want flo nocks on his arrows because he didn’t want the deer to see them coming. I told him if the deer can see the nocks coming, he’s got bigger problems.

From: GF
02-Feb-21
“ It is so hard to prove though because you would need an absolutely silent bow to observe it. ”

Nope.

Download a free dB meter onto your phone - one that will hold/record the data at least temporarily - and set things up so that you can shoot just over it. The recording will include the sound of the bow and the sound of the arrow smacking the backstop, with the sound of the arrow passing in between. Then you can test all you want.....

From: 12yards
02-Feb-21
GF, but not to decipher what the deer (animal) is reacting to. I know my arrow makes noise and I stated I heard it. But you absolutely don't know what the deer is reacting to. You either need just the noisy arrow and no bow noise, or, to be able to ask the deer.

From: GF
02-Feb-21
OK - can’t argue with that. :D

But FWIW...

It sure does help if their ears are pointed the other way.

From: APauls
02-Feb-21
Well of you’re arrow is 250 fps and you had a perfect reaction time of 0 seconds l, something dropping at speed of gravity would fall roughly 3.5 feet if you dropped it at the same time as you shot a bow and the arrow went 10 yards. If that makes any grammatical sense. 10 yards, 3.5 feet.

It’s possible.

I have also visibly seen and seen on videos where deer react to a sound well after the sound of the bow going off would have reached them. I’ve seen my arrow in flight and seen a buck only react once the arrow was almost there. Had it been the bow noise he would have moved earlier. An incoming hiss out of nowhere getting louder is a reason to move.

From: Scoot
03-Feb-21
"I have also visibly seen and seen on videos where deer react to a sound well after the sound of the bow going off would have reached them. I’ve seen my arrow in flight and seen a buck only react once the arrow was almost there. Had it been the bow noise he would have moved earlier. An incoming hiss out of nowhere getting louder is a reason to move."

APauls, I agree with about 98% of what you post here, but I disagree with you on this one. It's really, really tough to disentangle the sound from an arrow and the sound from a bow and reasonably judge what a deer is reacting to. Wind velocity and direction are a couple important factors, I imagine. I wouldn't doubt that GF is right and the direction of a deer's ears may matter too. Also, couldn't deer react to the noise of a bow without that reaction happening instantly (slight delay in reaction, for some unknown reason)? Regardless of the many, many factors that might matter, I don't think it's possible to determine that a deer is reacting to arrow noise vs. bow noise because you think the reaction came too late to have been caused by bow noise. It could be tested in a lab if you could silence the bow and the arrow and look at reaction time while varying those variables. Given that's not going to happen, we'll just be left bickering about it online. :) You may disagree. Heck, I may even be wrong. But, I just think those two variables are so confounded with each other it's really tough to determine the influence of one of them vs. the other.

From: SaddleReaper
03-Feb-21
I believe the reaction is a response in combination of both sounds. They certainly hear the bow... but I'm not totally convinced a bow alone makes them jump - all of the time.

Take for instance, if you sharply yell at a deer, they'll snap their head up and you'll probably see some snappy muscle movement in the body as it prepares for flight. I think the bow is the initial attention grabber, and the arrow noise could be the clincher. Acceleration due to gravity takes over as the deer begins to lift its legs to let its body drop (whoever said they can pull themselves down - that makes no sense) to plant its feet and spring. The deer's reaction time combined with gravity is an event measured in hundreds or tenths of a second. The rest is up to arrow speed/ distance to subject, and the individual deer's responsiveness.

No doubt a quiet bow, and quiet arrow build all helps.... but no archery equipment is faster than 343m/s, and a deer's reaction speed ability.

Someone needs to film shooting a bow as if taking a shot at a deer, say 20-30 yards, but shoot the arrow in the opposite direction of the deer and film the deer's reaction. Do this many times to gather an average reaction sampling. I'd bet money they always flinch before sharply becoming upright and alert...but I also bet they don't always bolt!

Anyone who's ever intentionally tried to spook a deer within archery range with a sudden loud sound would know this. I've seen it a lot when I try to clear a field with a fast bark & howl combo. Deer flinch and heads shoot up, but they don't usually run right away as they assess the response required. :)

From: GF
03-Feb-21
“ whoever said they can pull themselves down - that makes no sense”

Of course it does.

Saying they can’t pull down is like saying that they can’t back up.

You guys are looking at the wrong end of the animal. Hip flexors and abdominals. Hind feet are planted, so when those groups contract, the whole front end gets pulled down and back.

From: SaddleReaper
03-Feb-21
Uh... The feet are not secured to the ground....They lift, the body falls due to gravity. Its that simple.

Ever see slow motion footage. Feet often lift clear off the ground in the action of taking off... indicating the deer can lift its feet at a faster rate than gravity pulls. How the hell does an animal with floating feet pull itself down? C'mon Matt.

From: Ambush
03-Feb-21
You hear the bow go off before the deer does, so it may seem that his reaction is delayed.

While spending days in a blind, I often experiment to see what I can get away with on deer I'm not going to shoot. The one noise that always get an immediate reaction is a sharp sniffing sound. Thumps, bumps, creaks, coughs, farts and even sneezes often only get a casual glance. But these are mule deer. The blondes of the deer world.

From: Ironbow-cell
04-Feb-21
Muscle reaction pulls you down. Boxers duck punches because of abdominal muscles. If they don’t and get clocked, then you get to see gravity at work. Much slower than ducking.

From: 12yards
04-Feb-21
Well Ambush, If, after a fart, a minute later the deer looks at you again, then starts shaking its head, does that mean you had Taco Bell last night?

From: Scoot
04-Feb-21
"The blondes of the deer world."

Bwahahahahaha!!!

From: GF
04-Feb-21
Thank you, Ironbow....

Edited out of my last post:

“Same muscles I use to beat my head against the keyboard because you guys can’t Anatomy.”

LOL

From: SaddleReaper
04-Feb-21

SaddleReaper's Link
Haha! You should beat your head a little harder, maybe those keys will help you physics :)

Not sure about comparing a vertically oriented body to a horizontally oriented. We have a major advantage over a deer in that comparison.

All the deer can do its lift or extend it legs. In the event of a lift, the abdomen might be contracted toward its hinds slightly as the hinds contract/ rise, while the front legs lift to extend outward or forward, but only to the extent where any downward "pull" stops as soon as its feet leave the ground. They were never anchored. Therefore its almost entirely gravity taking over. Which is instantaneous, albeit not faster, initially, than the deer is at lifting its legs.

Just watch this video at 1/4 playback speed. Look at that deer pull it self down with that six pack of abs.... amazing!!

From: GF
05-Feb-21
Dude. Your explanation only holds up if you assume that the legs only go up and down.

If the deer flexes (“lifts”) its forelegs, it’s shifting all of its weight to the hind feet. At which point they are pretty well anchored in the dirt (fore and aft - NOT vertically) for the hip flexors to work against. Back end anchored, front end free. They're not doing crunches here; they’re using hip flexors to decrease the angle between the femur and the spine, which drives the front end down. It's like a batter or a boxer settling into his stance to swing a bat or a fist; the Power comes from the hips. Why do golfers wear cleats??? They sure don’t need them for running....

And I’m not saying they react exactly the same way every time, either. But if they hear something coming at their head, they’re not gonna simply go rag-doll to get out of the way when a coordinated, reflexive, full-body movement will get them moving faster.

And FWIW, I wasted a few minutes on that video, and here’s what I noticed... Besides an extremely well coordinated reflexive movement...

That deer heard a sound approaching from somewhat behind it when she had her right hind foot in the air. She kept weight on the left, hind leg, and her left hip was the last part of her body to move. That tells me that that hip was what was moving everything else that wasn't tied down. Once the other three legs were bearing weight, the hip flexors yanked that left hind hoof off the ground and into the next stride.

From: SaddleReaper
06-Feb-21
Of course the deer doesn't have telescoping legs!

I still don't believe a human provides a relevant comparison. Besides our abdominal structure differences... A humans center of gravity being above the hips means that the entire load is columnated straight down through our 2 legs to our 2 feet... so naturally humans utilize the primary balancing member of the body to manipulate the upper torso, while sufficient traction provides the positive reaction necessary from our feet upward... by way of skeletal structure and flexors or whatever the proper anatomical terms are.

The deers center of gravity is well forward of the hips which results in a biased weight distribution, which provides almost no natural biomechanical advantage when it comes pivoting about its hips (with the exception of going DOWN). The deer has to overcome gravity to extend as it leaps, or work with gravity as it drops. In that video it is clear that 3 legs begin to rise almost simultaneously and the left hind trails by a fraction of a second. That tells me that the left hind foot bears but a marginal increase in load, nor does it control the trajectory since, well, its beginning to lift, and the center of gravity remains the same! I can also see all 4 feet not touching the ground at 4:44 as the body continues to FALL... so not sure which video you watched? This tells me that gravity is doing the majority of the work in between actions. I'd say that hardly constitutes as "pulling" itself down... which was what started this whole debate lol.

Anyways.... the deer clearly hears the arrow.

That settles it!

From: GF
06-Feb-21
“ Of course the deer doesn't have telescoping legs! I still don't believe a human provides a relevant comparison.”

#1 - who suggested that deer have telescoping legs?

#2 - what you believe does not alter reality.

The difficulty arises from the fact that you aren’t interested in understanding what’s happening; you’re just convinced that your first impression is correct and trying to prove that you are right.

So here’s what I know. Not sure what I think or what I believe, but what is established fact.

All vertebrates are built on the same basic blueprint; the musculature is all but identical from limbed amphibians on up, with only minor variations between origins and insertions in keeping with the changes in bone lever ratios. Like the difference between a badger and a cat. One is built for power and the other for speed. Humans are bipedal and other primates are quadrupeds. The musculature is virtually identical. So, so much for low relevance.

“ In that video it is clear that 3 legs begin to rise almost simultaneously and the left hind trails by a fraction of a second. That tells me that the left hind foot bears but a marginal increase in load...”

Ummm... it was already bearing more than half the weight of the entire animal, but , OK... so you’re saying that a quadruped balanced on 2 legs can raise a 3rd leg off the ground without more than a “marginal increase in load” on the fourth.

And that happens because.... Fairy dust??

And you’re saying that a deer CAN raise its legs at faster than the rate of acceleration due to gravity (G) but that the same muscles - acting against resistance - CANNOT move the body downward at faster than G?

And that in that “fraction of a second”, the one planted leg could not possibly have had any effect in moving the rest of the animal, despite a full-body, reflexive reaction?

FWIW, even if we concede the notion that all 4 hooves were lifted off the ground instantaneously, the muscles of the torso can ABSOLUTELY yank the front end of the animal downward at faster than G simply by acting against the inertia of the center of mass (already accelerating at G), the same as a cat that rotates mid-air to land on its feet. For that matter, just pulling the legs up off the ground will drive the rest of the body downward at >G, because Equal and Opposite. (I Physics pretty good, too...)

And the net learning is that if you take a 35 yard shot at a wired-up whitetail.... it’s gonna hit the fan. Especially if you’re too busy taking hero video to be focused on your shot execution.

From: SaddleReaper
06-Feb-21
#1- nobody, but you said if "you assume that the legs only go up and down". I'm well aware the range of motion is greater.

#2 I'm not trying to alter reality. I'm trying to reason with you that physics has a greater net effect on what's occurring when the deer drops.

I am interested in what's happening, as I'm sure most would be here because it pertains to something we can all learn from. I am no more wrong in trying to defend my statement than you are yours, after all, the deer dropping by "pulling" itself down is not the whole truth. I will concede that I was not giving much credit to the musculature reaction driving body position to some extent, when I made my statement. Certainly the femur to spinal column angle decrease is going to help the front portion of the body pivot downward, and the tail end to lower, but the fact remains that the center of mass and gravity are helping tremendously to expedite the resultant positional move.

No the left hind leg does not bear more than half the weight of the animal... again, the center of mass does not change. IF the leg stayed planted and the deer didn't fall, your argument would hold as the weight definitely transfers with 1 fixed point of contact! However in this case the half the weight remains biased toward the animals chest as the moment of inertia drives in the clockwise direction about the femural head, and ultimately about the tip of the left hind hoof - which is already lifting off the ground.

"And you’re saying that a deer CAN raise its legs at faster than the rate of acceleration due to gravity (G) but that the same muscles - acting against resistance - CANNOT move the body downward at faster than G?" No I never said that. But I also didn't acknowledge that they possibly could be? That would be rather difficult to prove one way or the other. I would however refer to the video to decipher that one. The lifting legs indicate that it is moving the 2 major body elements (legs, torso) closer together at a rate faster than the acceleration due to gravity. The catch is that the hooves are not fixed so therefor the resultant reaction is the legs leaving ground, at which point they do nothing in the way of "pulling".

Your point about the equal but opposite reaction is absolutely true! Lifting the mass of the legs at a high rate of speed absolutely helps to generate the same quantity of an opposite reaction force acting downward on the upper torso.

Yes, I was wrong to an extent to say that the deer pulling itself down doesn't make sense. Then again there is semantics, you know...how it's all interpreted. The bottom line is that gravity is the deer's best friend when it comes to dropping quickly, and accounts for the brunt of the positional movement.

At this point I'm done debating this subject, as we've collectively beat it to death.

From: Beachtree
06-Feb-21
A deer can drop a full body size in 3 /10 of a second ask the wensel brothers. I have watched a herd of deer in a field on camera in slow motion the deer that's being shot at is the first one that drops because it hears the arrow coming at it .

06-Feb-21
Get behind something down range. Get a shooter at 25 plus yards. Listen. You will hear a very light thump. Mixed in with a ripping roaring arrow coming down range. The arrow noise and string noise is very easy to distinguish. The string noise will be very subtle. But, that fletched missile coming down range is going to sound like a po’ed belt sander and bee hive mixed together.

Scoot, up till today I’ve agreed with almost everything you’ve ever posted. . But, Apauls and ermine are right. As well as 12 yards, everyone else saying it, and myself. Arrow noise is over looked and often dismissed. But, it’s real and it’s loud! And animals react to it. Where we get in trouble is the bow noise startling them enough to get a running start that allows them to mess up an otherwise good shot.

From: Dale06
06-Feb-21
Well, I’ve read all the above and concluded that I’m going to keep shooting feathers, vented broadheads ( Iron Will) , and a pretty heavy arrow that will help on bow noise. After 43 years of avid bow hunting, I believe that deer, usually alert deer, react to the bow firing, not the arrow. You can believe whatever you want, and we will both be happy.

From: Tonybear61
06-Feb-21
Probably a combination of sound from the bow, the arrow and movement from shooting. If they are all keyed up anyway; yes they can duck, lunge, etc. either as a part of preparing to run or dodging an arrow if they see it. That said, I have had multiple shots on deer with really well-tuned bows and covered with string silencers, anti-vibration stuff. One guy didn't run til I hit him with the third shot.(all three were vital hits). Zwickey Fixed blade with 70# , shooting fingers.

On another note while spearing pike I have video of a fish spinning and ducking a spear as it was only a few inches from impact. Whether he saw, felt, or heard it don't know. Fish moved from nosing the decoy to a clean miss in 2 frames.

From: 3arrows
06-Feb-21
So what is the quietest fletch and broadhead?

From: Scoot
06-Feb-21
"Scoot, up till today I’ve agreed with almost everything you’ve ever posted."

Haha I'm pretty sure you disagree with one thing I did previously! Of course you were right...

I'm not even sure i disagree with you, WV. I'm just saying the two are fully confounded and proving they are reacting to one vs. the other is really tough. ...and there's no doubt the sound of an arrow zipping along out of a modern bow is significant.

From: GF
07-Feb-21
“ and there's no doubt the sound of an arrow zipping along out of a modern bow is significant.”

Because noise is created by drag, which increases exponentially with velocity....

I’m starting to think that maybe “faster” isn’t so much better as the speed merchants have been telling us.

07-Feb-21
I’ve never had a mule deer “jump” or “duck” the string. Although I’ve heard of it happening on occasion.

A couple weeks ago while hunting Mule Deer and Coues Deer, depending on what I saw first, I was still hunting one evening about 30 minutes before dark. I look to my left and there is a Coues buck and doe staring a hole in me from about 100 yards. Then they both got a holeshot and were at full speed lickity split. I fumbled to get my rangefinder out and was able to range a juniper they would quickly be running past at 56 yards. These Coues obviously knew I was there but when they cleared that tree, they miraculously stopped. By this time I had an arrow on the string and my release was clipped. They had stopped past that tree and the juniper was bigger round than I anticipated. I guessed the Coues buck at 60 yards. What would have been a great 1st Coues. A 4x4. I touched of the 60 yard shot and shot under his body cavity. He was looking at me the whole time and didn’t even flinch until I saw the arrow bounce off the rocks under him. Then they got another holeshot and were gone in seconds. So my question is kinda 2 fold. If a whitetail deer is looking at you, is he less likely to jump or duck the string? Or more likely when they are unaware of your presence and here a foreign sound?

07-Feb-21
Truthfully, He has to know something is up for it to matter most tImes. Take the hot doe out of the equation you just mentioned and it’s a whole different ball game though.

A buck will stand and take it a lot more often then a whitetail doe. And, the whitetail doe is by far more likely to cause you problems at the shot then any buck. Whether she is looking or not. Or even knows your presence. They look for reason to be on edge. Throw in being harassed by bucks and it can become very hard to hit a whitetail doe with a bow.

I realize Midwestern whitetail might not fit in that group. But, I promise you any whitetail in the east and south sure does.

It gets stated a lot. And, it’s true. Whitetail deer of all species are a different breed. They are so quick it’s impossible to describe it. Therefore, those that haven’t seen it first hand can’t fathom their ability. They are as fast as any squirrel. Which is remarkable considering they weight 100 times more then the average squirrel.

From: GF
09-Feb-21
I have a crackpot theory that a deer that has seen “something” may just stand there because they hear a foreign sound, but if their attention is on you, and you’re not coming at them, they may disregard that odd, whistling sound because they’re preoccupied with what their eyes have identified as a potential threat.

When they suddenly hear something screaming their way out of the clear blue, they seem more likely to come unglued - especially if they’re on edge to begin with.

From: Ollie
09-Feb-21
Your bow makes noise. Your arrow makes noise in flight. Some animals are more than capable of reacting to this noise turning what could have been a perfect hit into a wounding hit or complete miss. It only makes sense to do what you can to minimize bow/arrow noise.

From: TD
10-Feb-21
Here's the arrow noise proponent's definitive test. Eliminate the arrow noise, dry fire your bow and come back and tell us if the deer jumped...... =D

On string jumpin' son's..... a scale of 1 to 10, bow noise IMO is an 8 or 9. Arrow noise may have some impact, but I'd give it a 2. Maybe. Feathers are the noisiest of fletching and I used to shoot 5" helicals with big ol school 3 blade snuffers on aluminum shafts. I think they started to make noise as they came out of the quiver (some seemed to whine like a bird dog knowing he's going hunting....) A one arrow band marching downrange. Notoriously loud, they called that combo "the hiss of death". Honestly I couldn't tell you if I had more jumpers now or then with a far noisier arrow.

First, the flight noise is so much more natural than the twang (or thump if you're lucky) of the bow going off it's no contest. These animals hear birds zipping by all day long. Secondly.... They don't just start to make noise partway to the target, that arrow is starting to make it's noise at full throttle, top speed before it's even fully off the string. How in the world would you differentiate the two noises as the cause? I'd give you the fact they make noise for a longer TIME than the bow..... but IMO it's the bow that sets the lil' string jumpers off.... If you're seeing any "delayed" reaction it's pretty much just that animal's reaction.

But... I like playing with arrows and trying new heads and such too. Ought to see what's stuffed in my quiver any given day.... trigger the OCD guys into a seizure. Different combinations may not have the effect or be the cure anyone is looking for, but as with many things we do..... likely can't hurt....

WRT one of the questions above, I'll take a calm walking shot on an axis over stopping him every time. When you stop him you can see em wind up..... I hear coues are are wound particularly tight, going to find out someday. But these axis are some real buggers sometimes, elk and muleys seem like they are on prozac....

From: GF
10-Feb-21
TD! That’s GENIUS!

I’ll just put out a bait pile and dust it with Xanax. Then I’ll never miss again!!!

I do wonder, though.... Do you suppose they can hear how fast the arrow is coming? Because at compound speeds, they’re unnaturally fast. Even stickbows shoot at raptor-in-full-stoop speeds, but a light shaft from a compound is pushing 2X what a lot of Stickbow guys are using...

But you know....

If a wired-up deer tries to dodge one of my “slow” arrows like that doe in the video did..... She’d probably go unscathed...

From: goyt
10-Feb-21
There are a lot of good arguments here both supporting arrow noise as a cause of deer reactions and minimizing it. An interesting experiment would be to shoot to miss at a specific deer in a group that is spread out. If there are say 6 deer in a field and they are spread out but all about the same distance away shoot a foot in front of one of the does. If after doing this a number of times the deer that is shot near reacts significantly more than the others we have our answer that arrow noise is a big factor. If they all react about the same we know that bow noise is the biggest factor. I am starting to think that the deer I shoot at reacts more than a deer that is only few yards from it but I am not sure.

From: SaddleReaper
11-Feb-21
^ This! Or just shoot in the opposite direction of a deer at say 20-30 yards and see if it even runs... I'd bet they flinch pretty good but maybe don't run.

From: GF
11-Feb-21
“ I am starting to think that the deer I shoot at reacts more than a deer that is only few yards from it but I am not sure.”

That wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest… I figure with those great big ears stretching far apart, they can probably localize the source of a sound way better than we can, which means that they can tell when it’s coming straight at them or if it’s going to pass them at some angle. So the one that you’re shooting at would naturally have the most reason to duck.

I do think, though, that they are simple-minded enough that they cannot process two kinds of threat at once. So if they have identified you as a big, suspicious blob, and they hear something small and fast coming in their direction, they are probably more likely to be preoccupied with the big blob... and if you aren’t moving at them in some aggressive fashion, they may not give much attention to the audio signal.

At least if they’ve never been shot at before.

From: nchunter
12-Feb-21
There is a quick and easy way to solve this. Two guys go up in the same tree. Only one has a bow and the other a camera. A deer approaches at 20 yards, the hunter turns 180 degrees to the deer and fires while the other guy films the deer. Wait for another doe to come by and actually try to shoot her around the same distance while being filmed. Compare the reactions.

From: GF
13-Feb-21
“ Compare the reactions.”

No good. You have no way of gauging how suspicious/wired one animal is versus the other. not beyond an impression, anyway. In order to make it worth doing, it has to be objectively quantifiable.

Bottom line is that a quieter bow and quieter arrow are likely to trigger less of a response, and that’s a good thing.

Also a good thing is the fact that the heavier arrow tends to quiet the bow and quiet the arrow in flight, as well as alleviate any “need“ for a mechanical head, so you get to use a head with a 0% failure-to-deploy rate, the animal is less likely to jump on you, and accuracy is not compromised while penetration is maximized.

100% Good.

Then it’s just up to you to not take stupid shots at wired-up animals.

13-Feb-21
The speed of sound is only a very small fraction later reaching the deer at those longer ranges. Like in the hundredths. Yet, the amount the deer is reacting is not anymore then those at 20 yards. So, it’s got to be the arrow noise at the longer ranges. For two reasons. The first being Because bow noise is impossible to hear over the arrow noise at those ranges. And, if it were discernible, enough to be the cause at those ranges the deer would be long gone by the time it got there.

Each situation is different. And, bow noise is a factor you’d better be paying attention too. But, arrow noise does indeed play a huge factor at ranges where the bow just can’t be heard over the noise of the arrow coming down range.

From: goyt
13-Feb-21
Using 1,123 fps as the speed of sound and 280 fps as the speed of the arrow, the sound of the bow and the start of the arrow noise get to the deer when the arrow is about 25% of the way to the deer regardless of the distance. With a 30 yard shot the arrow still has to travel 22.5 yards after the noise gets to the deer. With the arrow noise increasing as it gets closer I can see where it could be a factor.

From: BR
14-Feb-21
i Fletched with AAE stealth Max, and Silent knight vanes and paired with helix 150 grain right bevel broadheads

Was there a difference between the 2 vanes in noise? If so which one was the quietest?

From: APauls
14-Feb-21
I don’t care what anyone says after watching reactions from deer I am 100% convinced the noise of an arrow CAN make them jump. Just like bow noise it doesn’t do it every time. So I always work on quieting my arrow as well as my bow.

There was a comment about lit up nocks earlier. Shooting at very last light on a dark night I think totally has the potential to freak a deer out when a light appears out of nowhere and comes blazing at them. Couple that with bow and arrow noise and you’re simply compounding your chances. The more you add the worse your chances get IMO.

From: GF
14-Feb-21
Not that I would guess anybody has stood down-range and watched, but are you sure that illuminated nocks are at all visible when the arrow is pointing straight at you? I guess on an elk, the eyeball could be 3 feet or more away from where you’re aiming, so there would be some angle to it, but....

I guess it would be easy enough to shoot at a mark a few feet away from your phone while you take a video... Interesting thing, though…

Last night I was shooting a mixed quiver, with some of my arrows at 10 GPP and some at 7. With the heavier arrows, I heard just the low Thump of the string; at 7, it sounded like a high-pitched tuning fork. And for me to hear anything high-pitched on my left side, it has to be LOUD.

Kinda nice to be point-on right at 50, though....

From: jjs
14-Feb-21
I always thought that the Snuffer was the 'whistling of death'.

From: GF
14-Feb-21
That was before the deer had all read up on laminar air-flow.

I may be mistaken on this point, but I don’t recall Snuffers ever being all that popular with compound shooters. At least not since they got to be appreciably faster than recurves.

I’m thinking it may be the sound of something approaching at an unnaturally high velocity that trips that trigger...

From: beemann
14-Feb-21
Years ago a buddy gave me some big snuffers to try. They mounted up nice and spun true. I was very excited to use them they were my dream broadhead. I remember shooting them after dark on a dead calm night. From a 70 pound recurve you could hear them whistling all the way to the target. They flew absolutely perfect but because of the high pitched whistle I never used them.

From: SaddleReaper
30-Mar-21

SaddleReaper's Link
Came across this today. Check out the link. The vane sound test done by this guy is interesting... some vanes are noticeably quieter than others (well known fact) - as they pass by the camera.

However, one thing that's more apparent to me after watching this video, is that I can't perceive a difference in noise level between the various vane types PRIOR to the arrow passing by. But each time the bow goes off, it sounds the same, and is easily more discernable to me than the approaching arrow. Maybe that last 10 or so yards of approach is enough for the deer to react to the sound of the arrow? Unscientifically speaking of course - I'm not totally convinced a deer could discern a difference between the bow sound and approaching arrow sound in say the first 50 yards... at least based on the audio in these test videos.

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