Road head failure?
Equipment
Do you call this a failure? BROADhead.....NOT Road head failure....that’s a painful discussion for a very different kind of forum....
Mature cow elk at 42 yards, very slightly quartering to, basically broadside. The arrow dead centered the humerus about 5” above the elbow, shattered that bone, sliced a rib, dead centered the heart, put a hole in the offside lung and lodged in the rib cage on the off side, just under the skin.
Here’s how the 125 gr ST Viper Trick emerges from it’s mission:
Failure, or Mission accomplished?
Considering you hit the humerus. That's what I'd expect.
I definitely thought this thread was going a different direction
You should be very pleased. Great result. Congrats
It did it’s job, may not be pretty, but it worked. Mission a success.
Id say it was put through a brutal test and passed. Kinda like a major car wreck that you walk away from.
Dead elk means the broadhead did it’s job.
That's one way to get people to click on your thread.....
You abused that poor head! I hope you apologized to it! ;-)
Dead elk good.
Master baiter for sure....
Certainly not a failure.
The head failed. The only reason it penetrated all that is because it was being driven by enough force to keep going.
Mission accomplished!!! Failure only if you had plans to kill multiple animals with that broadhead :)
Definitely a success! And congrats!
That’s the advantage of the Trocar style point. It’s like throwing a splitting maul through them.
Some heads would have performed as well, and would have not been damaged. The ST did it’s job. Congrats on the elk.
LMAO, you hit the humorous all right.
But honestly what are you expecting if you don’t call that a success?? Are people expecting broadheads to go through the worst of the worst and come out the same as they left the bow? All I want from my broadhead is for it to get the job done hopefully even in difficult circumstances. Yours did just that.
Looks like a big success to me.
A great testimony for the toughness and reliability of a ST. Congrats on the harvest !!
I would say for the path it took, it held up very well for a $10 broadhead with a soft metal ferrule. It sacrificed itself to kill the elk. So success
Iv had muzzy trocar hold up extremely well for what I have put them through.
I'd say it worked as it should. Hit some big bone, and kept on going. Dead elk, one shot, easy track, apparently. Not sure what else you could ask for..... I've never re used a head after it's been through an animal. I usually set em up by my pictures and whatnot. BH's are cheap, even at $10-$20 each, as long as they do their job, which it looks like this one did.
That's not failure. What would you expect a head to do after center punching the humerus, a rib and still penetrating enough to bury into the elk's heart? The head did it's job.
I believe the idea of higher FOC is exactly for the purpose of hitting bone. I believe even a well made, heavy single bevel would have sustained damage as well.
Actually it's *in case* you hit less-than-perfectly.
Yes Dana you are correct, but this happens to be "the case" with all the bone this broadhead contended with. Dr. Ashby had several tests he used to put broadheads through. The worst was taking a freshly killed African game animal, and intentionally shooting the arrow and broadhead through bone. And yes, so he could appeal to Africa to allow archery kills in the first place, where at one time only guns were allowed. The "in case" portion of this, was because many African game animal's vitals are forward, and often protected by bone. I think he knew many people were going to need all the advantages they could, to be consistantly killing those animals. At the birth of his research, the modern bow was a far cry of what it is today. Hell, in the 80's, we shot razor blades on aluminum heads. At one time Satellites were all the "Rage" pun intended lol.
“ Failure, or Mission accomplished?”
Hard to argue with Dead.
The question for me is just how sharp were those blades after the fact? Had you not hit the heart, would the wound channel have bled hard enough to drop the animal close enough to find it without much blood on the ground?
I can’t imagine I would ever be able to do that kind of damage to a head; my stoutest bow probably would not do that if I shot a slab of granite.
Interesting, though, how the tip is bent and that blade is missing on that side… I’m trying to think through the angle of impact on the round section of the bone…
I killed a large black bear thru a rib, shattered the off-side humerus, which on a big bear is also a very stout bone. I wish I had taken a photo of the bone. Broadhead fared extremely well, also ST Viper.
While your Viper doesn't look great, given what it did I'd hardly call it "failure".
Guess you could say the head failed as it is no longer useful. But it successfully killed the Elk (with one of the most extreme hit possible) and did what it was designed to do so overall it is successful. It really does not matter what the head looks like once it has killed something, all that matters is that does the job it is designed for.
IMO...when ya get into bow hunting ya have to expect some of your heads, arrows and nocks will be expendable on some shots. I figure it's the cost of doing bidness.......
Be realistic, steel while tough isn't indestructible. That's a $10 head that broke through a large heavy bone. I'd say that's a success. Ask the elk, I'm sure she agrees.
ki-ke, what is your total arrow weight and FOC?
It wasn’t a failure in my book.
No failure that I can see!
As bad as many would like to say differently, a chisel tip head out performs any coc head except a heavy blades single bevel. They bust right through stuff like a maul. There is reasons same people don’t split firewood with an axe instead of a maul. The same principal applies here. Who cares if the head is bent, the blades are bent, etc... It would literally take a brainless moment to suggest there was failure here.
Still laughing at the thread title, Steve....lol!
Ya, someone needs to change that title
For the record....the thread title was absolutely unintentional....coulda been one of those Freudian(?) slips, but was not intended as click bait!! I'm concerned that a few of you jumped on the thread thinking I had some amazing Penthouse forumesque story with a Steamboat hotty that I picked up on the way back from the processor...........
I'm not Lou......
Thanks for the feedback. Pretty much what I expected. Besides Ziek (who we know is a misguided soul anyway) JK ZIEK!!, most agree that even though thoroughly trashed, the head fulfilled its intended purpose. I liken it to an MMA fighter who just choked out his opponent with 30 seconds left in the 5th round, after a brutal 4-1/2 rounds of back and forth and his orbital bone is broken, he's concussed, he's got a 2" gash in his forhead from an elbow strike and he will be in the hospital for 3 days recovering, but he decisively won. Thats kinda how I see that broadhead.
This was a new arrow set up for me this year. A couple seasons ago, I decided to experiment with a bit more FOC. The extent of that experiment was going from a 100 grain head to a 125. Accuracy and consistency definately improved. Everything else stayed same. I had also came to the realization that regardless of the broadhead riding on the end of the arrow, there exists a weak link at the shaft/broadhead connection. For years, I had been shooting Axis shafts with the HIIT insert. Regardless the head, broadhead or field point that is screwed tight to that exposed end of the narrow walled carbon shaft, there exists high probability of failure at that junction. Even a field point, striking a glancing blow to the reinforcing rod on a dropped shot into a Rhinehart target can easily result in a torqued head and splintered shaft that is rendered useless. In an animal, the torqued head would surely affect penetration on a bone strike!
This thought train, (I've been accused of occasionally having one) led me to research products that address this weak link. I looked at the in/outsert from Easton, but it seemed the tolerances were a bit loose. I was also looking for a bit more weight up front withoiut playing with collars, weed whacker line, etc. While at the PnY convention in Omaha, I visited the Valykrie Archery booth. Their solution answered all my requirements, but came with a steep entry fee. I also visited the VAP booth. Lots of shaft options, an insert/outsert that appeared to be perfectly functional, as well as availability in different weights across all their offerings. I liked the precision and the cost as well! DONE!!
I went into the season shooting the VAP/TKO shafts with a 50 grain in/outsert and feeling good about the strength of the front end of my arrow. I didnt lose any arrows to splintered shafts during 3D season. Broadheads aligned beautifully and spin perfectly! Arrow weight was just north of 500 grains. Out of a BT Revolt X at 74 lbs and 29.5", the math seemed to indicate a deep penetrating setup.
Back to the head......All that to say, had this same shot situation occurred with my previous arrow set up, I truly believe that the tremendous forces applied to the front of that arrow when it it hit that heavy bone and all but wrecked that broadhead, would have resulted in the front of the shaft failing, the head torquing and not penetrating as it did. In this case, the sum of the parts....heavy shaft, solid insert and broadhead is what held together for the duration of the mission and resulted in my full freezer.
That's kind of what I expected. A relatively heavy arrow, with higher FOC, shot out of a heave set-up. In other words, the arrow penetrated very well DESPITE the BH failing on impact, because of other factors, not because IT performed well. The goal we all try to accomplish is sending a sharp BH into the vitals. By the time that BH reached vitals it was just a collection of scrap metal on the tip of the arrow. Granted, that was a very challenging impact for any BH, but I don't see it as a success DUE to the BH. ki-ke made some other good decisions in arrow assembly that resulted in a successful outcome.
I love Slick Tricks and have killed a lot of game with them. But they are not the BH for the front of that set up. There are many harder steel and ferrule combo BHs out there. Several brands My choice for heavy bows, Arrows and bones Would be an Iron Will. I have 2 IWs that we’re put through worse, in front of a much heavier arrow and bow. And came out ready to hunt with.
Dang it! I was gonna share some stories! ;-)
Congrats on the job getting done Steve.
The elk is dead. What heads would have also killed it? 2 of my last 3 bulls had expandables from prior years either in the spine or along the spine.
Thanks Rick!
Glunk- Same! my last 2 NM bulls had bits and pieces of expandables near the spine.....not a crack on mechanicals, simply factual findings....
I’m going to agree with Ziek. If you’re delivering those kinds of impact forces (and not many do), you need something close to the stoutest head you can get your hands on. Credit to the arrow and bow, but that head gets a DQ for future use out of that set-up.
Elk are BIG, and resistant to penetration.
Compounds generate ridiculous amounts of KE/Momentum compared to single-strings.
Replaceable blades are potential points of failure.
Mechanicals multiply the potential for failure with long lever arms.
The constant quest for higher speeds leads to lighter broadheads made of flimsier components.
And taking longer shots multiplies they potential for imperfect placement.
So (JMO, but looking at the Physics if it all) its no wonder that you hear about so many Elk outfitters who don’t want mechanical heads in their camps.
IMVHO, this proves a head doesn't have to be "scary" sharp to kill an animal; so sharp you cut yourself looking at it sharpness. If you can get a head to shave hair or catch your nail you're good to go. I'll duck and get the hell out of the way now! LOL.
“I'll duck and get the hell out of the way now! LOL” That’s funny,
Thanks Rick!
Glunk- Same! my last 2 NM bulls had bits and pieces of expandables near the spine.....not a crack on mechanicals, simply factual findings....
I loved ST's , they fly great, and have killed a bunch of critters with them, but I went away from them precisely because I didn't like how the blade edges curled after a hit. They just aren't hard enough for me. If they hardened them up some, I would be using them again.
And 12yards is partially correct, a piece of fishing line is round, and you can wrap it around your hand and put great tension on it and it won't cut you...but put a Barracuda on the other end and grab it whiles he's running. Different story. Velocity not only helps with BH terminal performance, but it is a necessity. More is better.
There is a tradeoff between what some consider sharp - like a razor blade, and what is sharp enough to be effective AND will hold up long enough to still be sharp enough when it gets through the heavy stuff to where it needs to be to do its job. Those very thin, scary sharp feeling edges are good for shaving, but I want to kill the elk, not shave it. A well built, solid 3-blade like VPA, or heavy two blade do that much better than ANY replaceable blade. Also, vents are a weak spot in any BH and contribute no other offsetting benefit.
Don't believe Freud wore slips.... more of a garter belt guy from all I hear......
Seeing as you're not hunting cape buffalo...... Slick Tricks are good well built heads and have the track record to prove it. They've killed trainloads of stuff. I honestly know of no head in the normal 100-125 range that would take a major elk bone at those speeds and energy and be able to put it back in the quiver and shoot it again. None I'm aware of unscathed. Seeing how most bones are kinda roundish an attached to animals that move and arrow impacts are very dynamic events..... not all bone hits are even remotely the same. Great many would not have gotten past the bone, Personally I don't care for three blade fixed heads in that situation as they have a tendency to "stick" in big bones and not shatter or split them like a good two blade or tricar style head might. Tendency. Not "always and forever......"
Congrats on the elk! Give that head a toast, a salute and it's rightful place near the bow bench for stories later on......
I'd say that broadhead did it's job.
I hope to never be involved in an incident of "Road head failure" that curls my tip over like that, yikes! But, I'm married so those situations are few and far between.
TD there are several brands that will stand up to any elk bone. In 100-125 grains. Same design and steel quality? just less weight. Slick tricks are great Broadheads.
I think the point is; if your going to heavy arrows and bow weight to help with incidental bone contact. There are better heads. That will go through ANY elk bone and hold it’s edge to cut organs.
I disagree altitude sick. Any head standing up to an elk humerus bone without some significant damage is an exception to the norm. I think the broadhead functioned well.
Guys, I am agreeing with you that the BH did it’s job. It held up against a lot of abuse and killed the elk. Slick Tricks are a great BH. I LOVE Slick Tricks. And to add to our friendly discussion.
My point I that if you are going through the cost and effort to build an arrow BH combo to deal with bone. There are better choices. Harder steel and better edge retention.
Here is a BH I shot through a Baboon and into an old concrete water tank.
75 bow 1028 grain arrow behind the BH at 15 yards a lot of energy driving the BH.
It suffered some minor damage to the front and didn’t bend the ferrule, still spun straight.
This was old, very solid concrete. Not a cinder block.
All steel is not created equal.
I don't think the Slick Trick family of broadheads have their historically long deadly reputation based on being indestructible. It's because they are dead on accurate and fly like fieldpoints so putting one in the pump house is a more likely outcome for an average Joe like me even shooting a senior citizen draw weight. Yes, elk are big but they don't like holes in their chest.
I truly believe that ANY sharp broadhead would have sustained damage on that hit. I also am of the opinion that the tip curl on a 2 blade head would likely have been at least, if not more signifiant that what the ST evidenced on my elk.
Someone said it above and it is precisely as I feel. 1st and foremost, I wont shoot a head that is not as accurate as field points. I could care less how stoutly built a head is if it doesnt hit where I point it. I will gladly give up a bit of perceived stength in exchange for a high level of accuracy. I need all the help I can get!
Regarding 2 blade heads, I have never been a fan. I dont like the "knife stab" slit they make in an animal. I believe there is great advantage in the increased cutting surface of multiple blades.
I've killed a number of elk with Slick Tricks and I'll hopefully kill a few more with them! Or VAP's...I like them too. I need to look at the SS version.
I am surprised that blade sheared off - Slick Tricks are wicked tough
Ziek, Bleeder blades have the function of making a larger entrance hole for bleeding, cutting a 4 blade hole through the animal and same with an exit hole. In the case of heavy bone they blow up but as they are attached to a stouter main blade the penetration continues as the head needs to get by the bone to get to the vitals. If an iron will had a break away bleeder blade it would be a better head unless they could not make it fly.
i love being able to pull a bloody broadhead from the dirt - resharpen it and drop it in the quiver - but that's not always the case - if its bent, broken, or destroyed and i have a short blood trail - i'm just as happy about it!!!!
“ will gladly give up a bit of perceived stength in exchange for a high level of accuracy. I need all the help I can get!”
A (perhaps) heavier arrow and a well-tuned bow should allow you to shoot any head you like without any concerns over accuracy. And if you really “need all the help you can get”, I’d say the first course of action should probably be to keep your shots that much closer.
I don’t know how many knowledgeable hunters have observed that the number of blades is of little import compared to shot placement, but they sure seem to have ample evidence to make that case....
Agree olebuck. A broadhead that notches me a tag owes me nothing.
GF- Always just a matter of time before you inject conjecture and judgement. I bow to your obvious archery wizadry and promise to try and do better...... you're a joke
This problem nearly caused me to have a motor vehicle collision one time in college..
If he had been shooting a Thunderhead the broadhead would not have been damaged like that.
I’m gonna see if I can make nice with a butcher and get some fresh bones to shoot into.
I even have an old Thunderhead or two that I’d be willing to subject to Destructive Testing in the name of figuring some of this stuff out.
ALL broadheads make it through major bone and gain full penetration due to the energy imparted behind it by the bow/arrow setup. There is NO broadhead made that simply by design smashes through major bone without consuming a major portion of the arrows energy. Some may be more structurally designed to withstand the impact better than others, but I doubt ANY head on the market would have survived that impact in 100% "use-again" condition. The BH did its job. Takeaway from the shot?.....its always better to miss major bone with an arrow. :)
I haven't found anything "good" behind bone in almost 50 years of hunting so I tend to keep my arrows away from them.
Arrowflinger my experience with Thunderhead vs. Slick Trick is ST has held up much better. Your results may of course vary.
Nothing to add....just LMAO everytime I see the thread title.
Broadhead I killed a Cape buffalo with 1.5 yrs ago.
Note the slight tip damage
Broadhead I killed a Cape buffalo with 1.5 yrs ago.
Note the slight tip damage
Ok I performed a little test to demonstrate that all BHs are not created equal.
And quality steel does make a difference.
And there are indeed BHs that would have not only survived but been usable after hitting an elk leg bone.
Sharpness test of BH after going through 1” buffalo ribs and sitting around for over 1 yr
Sharpness test of BH after going through 1” buffalo ribs and sitting around for over 1 yr
Large angus femur
Large angus femur
After one shot
The tip that was damaged on the Cape buffalo is now missing 1/64”
Still spins straight and is sharp
After one shot
The tip that was damaged on the Cape buffalo is now missing 1/64”
Still spins straight and is sharp
OK, now the suspense is killing me…
What happens if you back up far enough to add 1/4 turn rotation on that arrow so that the blade strikes parallel to the ground instead of perpendicular to it?
Appears to me that you have split that bone (pretty near perfectly) along the grain, so to speak... Just looking at how the split is much longer than the blade width and wondering what happens at 90°?
Time to destroy the broadhead
Time to destroy the broadhead
So after 3 shots the broadhead is still alive and flying fine. Hitting where aimed from 20yds. Testament to the arrow construction also.
The next shot should answer that Matt
From 25 yds to get a little different rotation at impact. I was a little off and hit the top left of the outside femur and punched through the 2nd femur. Kind of a glancing blow on a ridge of the bone at its widest point.
Slight chipping in front edges. Back edge still sharp
The ferrule spread a little bit after killing a Cape buffalo, punching through a large angus femur 3 times. And then through 2 femurs once. This BH still spins straight.
Also I have zero affiliation with any companies. But thought we should keep Bowsite members the most informed archers and hunters.
I think this demonstrates all steel is not created equal. And that some BHs do Fly great, survive severe impacts and still cut.
That’s INSANE to think that you would be able to get a head to spin true after soaking up that kind of damage…
Pretty sure that my arrows will be bouncing right off when I get to this, but it’ll be interesting to see.... First thing, I’ve got to send my stoutest bow out for a little work so that the only things destroyed with be 20 yards down-range.
Or 30, on a day when I’m shooting like this ;)
Thanks for the test Altitude sick!
That arrow BH combo was 1028 Grains. Flying very straight. So all energy is driving right behind the BH
But this wasn’t a penetration test it was to show what good steel is capable of. I’ve killed a lot of animals with Slick Tricks and far less weight and energy.
But some think that any BH would have suffered the same damage by hitting an elk leg.
Not True
LOL...you proved my point. Even broadheads on the extreme edge of construction will likely not be 100% unscathed. Slight tip damage, resharpening etc. Likewise will go 99% of all over the counter BH's to a greater extent. :)
Nice tests!
With all that. I’m currently using an old Bear arrow with a Razor head and my self bow. It doesn’t generate enough energy to destroy a Razor head. A great old design by the way.
Yes you are correct after going completely through 15” of bone it’s slightly damaged. Still flys straight and could be resharpened.
Great test Altitude! No argument here, the IW is obviously an incredible tough head! I still like multi blade heads (3 or 4).
If hunting Cape Buff, possibly even American Bison, I would be inclined to shoot a 2 blade.
Please do that test with a VPA 125 gr unvented! I'll replace what you detroy. Maybe I'll hit the butcher and see if he can get me some thigh bones.....
Thanks again for sharing your tests!!
The bones are about $1 a piece Ask for soup bones. They are fresh and provide a better test than a dry dog bone.
Success for sure! The Viper Trick is at the top of my favorite all time heads used on elk. I put it above the IW heads & I've taken elk with both. Great job ki-ke!
ElkNut
At a buck each, even I can talk myself into that! And at that rate, you know, I think I will.
I suppose the only sure-fire way to identify the weakest link in the chain involves the certain destruction of at least one arrow and most likely a head as well, but then my broadheads don't cost $35 a pop. More like $35/half dozen (and Made in the USA!).
But if I could somehow (miraculously!) split a bone like that without blowing up an arrow, I guess that'd be pretty OK, too.
At this moment in time I’m whitetail hunting out back. Using an Osage self bow. A vintage Bear arrow and RazorHead. RazorHeads are very easy to sharpen high carbon steel. Also very easy to bend the tip over on bone. But, this bow does not generate enough momentum and the arrow is not heavy enough to do that anyway.
But the OP had a very stout arrow and used a fair amount of draw weight, with a mild steel ferrule.
And we see the results. The elk died. The broadhead worked. And I agreed it was a success.
But some people like to purchase things that can be used more than once. Some prefer to use things once and throw them away. Some use both for different set ups and or species. The more stout the animal the more stout BH I use. For Groundhogs I use blunts That’s the beauty of capitalism. :^)
