I’m 70 and have seen bowhunting sadly deteriorate over the years. Things like if you can shoot a deer at 50-60 yds you can hit and elk at 100-120 yds. Saw a post the other day of a guy showing the bull he shot with an arrow to the brain. All a person has to do is hang out at a bow shop if they want to hear stories. Had one guy tell me you just have to get an room in them, they’ll eventually die. These bulls were in Oregon on public land and they were shot during archery season. The last one was a 6x. No they weren’t killed by anything other than an arrow. Some Bowhunters are more of a danger to hunting than anti hunters. If the subject can’t be discussed on a bow site then where can it be? Or do we just not ever bring the subject up and let them go. This long range shooting isn’t just an archery issue. Rifle hunting and so called primitive weapons like muzzle loaders that can kill animals out to 300 yds. Nothing primitive about that. I haven’t shot a recurve in quit a few years but I’m beginning to think maybe bowhunting should mean recurves and longbows. If some of the nonsense keeps going on that maybe where some states will revert to.
Sounds good to me!
Everything that everybody likes to complain about in bow season goes away without rangefinders and releases. Takes it right back down to a 30-yard proposition.
Which most “bowhunters” will surely pass up.
Likewise, all of those weapons can be used beyond the shooter’s proficient range.
The fact of the matter is that most hunters are part timers who hunt a few days a year or less, practice the day before a hunt only and if that, and are never going to put the effort into success that the sorts of us who can’t get enough of hunting while we’re not hunting so we come argue about it and wring our hands online while not hunting.
There are guys of every weapon type who wound more animals than they take home. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.
If there were strict proficiency tests administered in order to hunt and individually mandated distance laws based on those tests, there’d be a fraction of us afield.
It is what it is. It’s unfortunate.
And proof of it is that there’s far more hunters than NRA members, yet we don’t have much of a voice because most hunters just don’t care enough about hunting and those of us who wring our hands just don’t understand them. If all hunters cared as much as we do, we’d have a national organization that would make the power of the NRA look like child’s play.
Sounds to like you have a problem with bow hunters in general, I've seen lots of animals killed by poachers or scum that just shoot them for the hell of it and leave them lay right before archery season, unless you or someone else did a necropsy on those animals and a comprehensive investigation you don't have a basis for your accusation and you are just spouting off crap, your post is what makes me nauseas
If you want to have a conversation about it than have one with the guys that you have heard in the bow shop, also have a conversation with the bow shop owners, they are in a solid position to push/portray good bowhunting practices as they sell and work on peoples bows.
Sounds like DL is saying get off my lawn. I would support archery going “ primitive”. That said if you had the same number of hunters using long bows and recurves there would be just as many wounded animals. Sure range would be somewhat limited but how many compound shooters are going to put in the time with a stick to be proficient at 30 yards. There would be a lot more guys launching wooden arrows at 30 yards with no business doing so than there are compound shooters shooting 70+ with no business doing so.
Something about this story sounds fishy though. I just can’t believe he found 3 archery kills in a couple days!
"No they weren’t killed by anything other than an arrow"
I have a hard time accepting your second statement as "fact"...considering your first statement...
It's easy to assume the worst about another hunter(s) but sometimes sh#* happens even in nature. Three bulls does sound fishy.
I kind of disagree with Link, though :
“ Sure range would be somewhat limited but how many compound shooters are going to put in the time with a stick to be proficient at 30 yards. There would be a lot more guys launching wooden arrows at 30 yards with no business doing so than there are compound shooters shooting 70+ with no business doing so.”
You think so?
I think an awful lot of them would put in for ML tags or shift into early rifle. Seems to me that far too many “bowhunters” are just opportunistically exploiting a season that’s too good a deal to pass up, especially those who’ve convinced themselves that a fast bow and a rangefinder are all they need for those 70-yard Hail-Marys to turn out OK.
Call me a cynic if you want, but these days, most people don’t seem to hunt Elk with a bow because they want to hunt with a bow; they do it because they want to kill a bull, and (in their minds) the longer season and the rut outweigh the perceived handicap imposed by a 50-100-yard weapon... so they believe that their chances of filling a tag are simply better than waiting for first Rifle. And I do believe that banning electronic rangefinders would cut Archery license sales very deeply and very fast, because they’re the hinge-pin for accuracy past about 30 yards.
Even (especially??) among as hardcore a bunch as this, there are not many compound shooters who think of a rangefinder as “optional” equipment, and I might just bet that you characters are WAAAY better qualified to be shooting 40+ yards without a rangefinder than the average Joe is at 30 WITH one.
But (if we’re honest here) it’s not primarily the hard-cores who are causing the overcrowding, the point creep and the dead bulls that litter the hillsides post-season; there just aren’t that many out there.
Question is, are you hard-cores hardcore enough to give up some of your gee-gaws if that were what was required to maintain an Archery season? You all say that you’re not The Problem, but we didn’t HAVE these problems until so damn many people showed up... with gear just like yours..
And FWIW, nobody in the “get back to where this started” camp wants to deprive anyone of Non-electronic sights if people want to use them; we’d just like to see them used with no let-off and no laser rangefinders. And Truth is, 30-yard hunting accuracy with a stickbow os not all that difficult unless you choose to make it so.
Just don’t tell The Masses ;)
I have enough issues with the Trad fan-boys as it is; people who (for example) will insist that it’s “cheating” to use a shot sequence that produces reliable results. They’re as snobbish about Plaid Wool and Fedoras as the Techie Boys are about Digital Camo and high-dollar broadheads, and they seem to be as proud of their inability to shoot past 17.4 yards as some other people seem to be regarding their inability to get inside of 174 feet.
The only up-side would be if the Fans were to buy into the short range HUNTING proposition; which is arguably not where modern bowhunting started off, but it’s a good place for it to be. If everybody were to keep all of their shots smart and inside of 30 (or acknowledge their own limitations and choose a different weapon), the crowds go away, the wounding rate comes down, and the whole deal gets re-set to about 30-40 years ago.
Which suits me fine, because I don’t have to change a THING.
Funny how everybody always comes down right where they already are.....
Great message right there!
I'm not sure I understand the reset to 30-40 years ago. There was plenty of wounding and Hail Mary shots then too.
There was a time when the majority of bow and arrow hunters evolved from the 1940's strategies of longer range, running away shots, and deer fleeing a deer drive, to a more conscientious effort to limit shots to a higher percentage outcome. My family bow and arrow hunted during all of these periods, and continue today.
As horn porn at all cost, and technology in weaponry began to dominate, videos in particular seem to worship and praise the long range efforts of the hunter and technology. This, almost as if it is a challenge in marksmanship and equipment. We are once again back to the 40-100 yards shots being somewhat normal, especially on larger animals. The scoped and cocked crossbow is now pushing the limits even beyond 100 yards. These are general statements only, but can easily be verified by reading past posts and threads on this very forum about long range shots. You know the supportive statements such as " if they practice that far then I am good with it ". Well, from my observations practice at 60 yards on a target is a bit different than hunting conditions with an animate object as the intended target. Just my opinion, but that is where the statement in a previous posts came from. Good hunting to all.
The core values of the Pope and Young Club revolve around the principles of high standards of conduct and ethics in our bowhunting lifestyle. The Club believes that an ethical code is necessary for all responsible bowhunters and is the key to protecting bowhunting's future in our society.
Better to think about it than be haunted by the failure, though, eh?
“ There was a time when the majority of bow and arrow hunters evolved from the 1940's strategies of longer range, running away shots, and deer fleeing a deer drive, to a more conscientious effort to limit shots to a higher percentage outcome. ”
And THOSE were the good old days, whenever they were; back when it took the average Bowhunter 7 years to get his first deer and everyone was OK with that.
The size of the deer population has changed that equation, but it does appear that there’s no appetite for delayed gratification these days.
The “common sense” solution to this “huge” problem plaguing our country is ban compound bows, fancy clothes, flat brim hats and electronic range finders from use during bow seasons.
After ONLY 20 years of bow hunting A LOT all over Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Utah,Wyoming,Texas, California, Arizona, Alberta Canada Canada, and South Africa I am having a hard time recalling finding any wounded, not recovered animals. Even though I fill a pretty high percentage of my tags, I must not be hunting the right areas where the animals live and others hunt them.
I often read here a compound bow can be picked up by a beginner and easily shot accurately to 60 yards with little practice. Now in this thread it’s the other way around. Only the most hardcore compound bow hunters can shoot well, and the “average joe” can’t shoot a compound d 30 yards!
Since I began shooting a bow I spend a lot of time at different archery ranges and 3D shoots. I only recall a couple of traditional bow shooters that could consistently shoot a 10 inch group at 20 yards, although on the internet most traditional shooters are easily very deadly out to 30 yards with lots of practice. Also the guys that can shoot a trad bow well, and actually fill tags on this website and in real life I met are usually pretty low key and don’t belittle other hunters/archers. Actually most highly successful compound archers and gun hunters I see or know aren’t real big on talking down to others, and typically don’t have a my way is the best way attitude. In fact they are generally real nice people that have a great passion for the outdoors, hunting, and nearly always love helping others new or old to the sport get better by sharing their knowledge!
Which isn’t that unusual, especially when it’s deliberate, but what the hell, I’ll play....
“ I often read here a compound bow can be picked up by a beginner and easily shot accurately to 60 yards with little practice. Now in this thread it’s the other way around. Only the most hardcore compound bow hunters can shoot well, and the ‘average joe’ can’t shoot a compound d 30 yards!”
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but a LOT of people say that archery season is too damn crowded; especially out West. Some of us believe that high-let-off compounds, mechanical releases and laser rangefinders have contributed to that. Yeah, I know - just another left-wing conspiracy theory. Pass the tin-foil.
And some of us believe that punching paper or foam at known distances is a totally different proposition than knowing how to choose your shot, pick the right spot, and execute it well under field conditions and on live targets. Sorry if you are offended by the suggestion that there is more to hunting than on-paper effectiveness on the practice range.
That said, I’d bet money that the “average joe” would discover his limitations a lot faster without a rangefinder in his pocket. Most of the guys I see down at the club are ranging every single shot; and they’re DEADLY on foam that way. On foam.
They won’t just shoot from wherever the stake might be, because between the rocks and the swamps, that gets expensive real fast here when you start missing the target entirely. And these aren’t Back-yard Joes; these are the Regulars.
And after 30 years of hunting wherever could get to, chasing whatever animals happened to be there, I don’t see how the number of animals I’ve killed have a single damn thing to do with my ability to count how many camps are in a drainage that used to have ZERO or figure out that those guys wouldn’t be there if they didn’t figure their chances of filling a tag are better during archery than they are during rifle. And I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to conclude that they wouldn’t take that bet if they were planning to pass on anything past 30 yards.
“I’m beginning to think maybe bowhunting should mean recurves and longbows. If some of the nonsense keeps going on that maybe where some states will revert to.”
To which you responded immediately after:
“ Sounds good to me!
Everything that everybody likes to complain about in bow season goes away without rangefinders and releases. Takes it right back down to a 30-yard proposition.
Which most “bowhunters” will surely pass up.”
I like how you put bow hunters in quotation marks. I’m guessing that’s to let everyone know people who shoot over 30 yards, use a release, and range finders aren’t real bow hunters:)!
My reading comprehension is just fine, and i haven’t deliberately missed any point. You have stated your views why archery season should be traditional bows only.
“But (if we’re honest here) it’s not primarily the hard-cores who are causing the overcrowding, the point creep and the dead bulls that litter the hillsides post-season; there just aren’t that many out there”
There’s not enuff hard core compound bow hunters that are up to your standards, so everyone should shoot a trad bow so we can eliminate “the dead bulls that litter the hillsides post-season”.
This is the exact point I disagree with.
I do agree with your opinion that archery season would be less crowded if everyone had to shoot a traditional bow and there would be less demand for archery tags if that was the case.
And no, I don't believe that thrusting a recurve into a guy's hands will make him into a Model Citizen if he's basically an ass to begin with. By the same token, you give somebody a compound and teach them to punch paper with it, and that doesn't make them a Bowhunter. So yes, I will reserve the right to use quotation marks to describe those whose sole motivation to use a bow is the opportunity to cash in on what looks like a better deal than firearm season.
But let's say that "hard-core" simply means "among the top 10%" in their dedication to learning to hunt, track, call, shoot, tune their equipment, etc. I think that (once upon a time) , being in the top 10% was actually part of the definition of "Elite".
You know, as in "10% of the fishermen usually catch 90% of the fish".... But I'd bet that the Top 10% of bowhunters account for far less than 10% of the wounded & lost animals
I can't imagine that there is any "trad guy" out there who honestly thinks the season would still be overcrowded if 90% of the people who are/were out there this year with compounds were to go back to rifle season... I'm sure there are plenty for whom that would not be good enough... and they do have a point, but that has nothing to do with crowding per se....
It's a line in the sand; you've gotta draw it somewhere. Most dedicated single-string guys think compounds are over the line. Most Compound shooters think that's hogwash, but Crossbows are the Work of the Devil; and the Crossbow guys have their panties in a wad over the AirBow...
Did you ever notice that the rules always seem fair enough to those who are winning?