SG2
Oregon NR Just Say No
Mule Deer
Contributors to this thread:
Zim 18-Oct-20
Bowboy 18-Oct-20
wildwilderness 19-Oct-20
RJ Hunt 19-Oct-20
IdyllwildArcher 19-Oct-20
Zim 19-Oct-20
IdyllwildArcher 19-Oct-20
Zim 19-Oct-20
greg simon 19-Oct-20
WapitiBob 19-Oct-20
midwest 19-Oct-20
BOHNTR 19-Oct-20
Zim 19-Oct-20
Zim 19-Oct-20
elkmtngear 19-Oct-20
goyt 19-Oct-20
wyliecoyote 19-Oct-20
BOHNTR 19-Oct-20
Zim 19-Oct-20
'Ike' (Phone) 19-Oct-20
Royboy 20-Oct-20
wyliecoyote 20-Oct-20
WapitiBob 20-Oct-20
Drnaln 20-Oct-20
DonVathome 20-Oct-20
Zim 20-Oct-20
NoWiser 20-Oct-20
Firsty 20-Oct-20
TurboT 20-Oct-20
smurph 20-Oct-20
sdkhunter 20-Oct-20
stealthycat 20-Oct-20
badbull 20-Oct-20
TurboT 20-Oct-20
Zim 21-Oct-20
BULELK1 21-Oct-20
Hackbow 21-Oct-20
Zim 21-Oct-20
Zim 21-Oct-20
WapitiBob 21-Oct-20
Firsty 21-Oct-20
Drnaln 21-Oct-20
Zim 21-Oct-20
Zim 21-Oct-20
IdyllwildArcher 21-Oct-20
bowhunt 22-Oct-20
Dan Mallia 03-Dec-20
TreeWalker 03-Dec-20
BOWUNTR 04-Dec-20
Dale06 04-Dec-20
DonVathome 07-Dec-20
Ollie 07-Dec-20
rjlefty3 07-Dec-20
WapitiBob 07-Dec-20
Glunker 07-Dec-20
Zim 08-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 08-Dec-20
Treeline 08-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 08-Dec-20
Zim 08-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 08-Dec-20
Drnaln 08-Dec-20
Tilzbow 08-Dec-20
Drnaln 08-Dec-20
Zim 08-Dec-20
From: Zim
18-Oct-20
To you nonresidents who for some reason are stuck on the big game hunt treadmill in Oregon, I have some reviews for you. This is based on the burning of my 21 points for elk last year, and 22 points for pronghorn & deer this year. These were all used to draw supposedly “top 3” units for each species. I have hunted extensively in most all the worthwhile states out west. The best analogy I can make for my hunts is to compare the value for each of these to Wyoming unit values. My 21 point archery elk hunt was about as good as a 4 point WY elk unit. My 22 point pronghorn hunt was equal to a 2 point WY goat unit. And my 22 point deer hunt was actually below the equivalent to an OTC deer hunt anywhere out west who sells them. That’s it. The elk hunt was the only one even worth the cost of burning my PTO days at work for. The travel expenses alone were not worth the second two hunts and I seriously wish I’d just abandoned those points and walked away. Unless you have some kind of private land super secret I’d strongly recommend dumping all your points to escape that scam. Just my serious opinion. No joke. After my hunts, I can’t believe some of these hunting consultant outfits even bother to cover this state. It’s a disservice to their clients to lead them on into thinking this state is worth its salt. Stop giving your money to a liberal state that does horrible game management. The only worse investment in my life was marrying my dead beat ex in 1985. Keep your money. Don’t fund this 2 1/2 % NR quota clown show. Just say no.

If you are still buying hostage points in this state, you are welcome to PM or call me for more details.

From: Bowboy
18-Oct-20
I grew up in Oregon and have went back a couple times for Blacktails. I never purchased any points for any thing. I went in the military and got stationed in WY back in the early eighties. When I retired from the service I moved back to WY as soon as possible. I totally agree with your comments about Oregon wildlife and, it's not a place I would want to hunt and live in. The only good elk tag is the Weneha unit, but most NR will never draw it, and residents it's pretty much a once in a lifetime hunt.

19-Oct-20
Glad I never started getting points there

From: RJ Hunt
19-Oct-20
I live here in Oregon, close to Idaho. Our big game is pretty miss managed sad to say.

19-Oct-20
Zim,

please don't take offense to this, but you've shown yourself over many years on Bowsite to be a pretty cynical guy. I'm a cynic too, but you're really cynical.

That said, I don't doubt anything you've said and I thank you for posting this for the hunting community.

When I got into the point game over a decade ago, I did my research and found that Oregon is just not worth it and that their management is horrible and I'm so glad I didn't waste 2 grand over the past decade applying there.

It's really bad news to hear your report and I feel bad for you and especially the residents of OR who don't really get a big advantage for being a resident of a western state like residents of so many other states do.

From: Zim
19-Oct-20
IWA, Cynical means looking out for my own interests. You have never met me and have no clue about me. You could not be further from the truth. Yes, I wear my heart on my sleeve, but that’s not cynical.

I am posting this opinion here for two purposes only. To help others in a similar situation. And to call out ODFW for peddling perceived value, not real value........and not doing their jobs.

I very much enjoy helping others. This year alone two fellow Bowsiters were very grateful for me putting them directly on top of a Kaibab stud mule deer & possibly the top archery bull elk harvested in the state of Nevada for 2020. I’d hardly call that cynical. Both taken exactly where I advised them to hunt.

BTW the OR mule deer hunting had a much better reputation back when I got in the points game 2 1/2 decades ago, not one. I did my research back then too, but the liberals took over long afterwards and converted half the NR tags to outfitter welfare. And filled the state with wolves, and mountain lions snacking on mulies. I saw plenty of tracks on my hunts. I never would have bought in if the NR quota was 2 1/2%. Those buying in since then have a far far easier decision. I’m just trying to advise those who are stuck on the treadmill today.

19-Oct-20
Fair enough. I take back the word cynical and replace it with pessimistic. Although, again, I feel your pessimism regarding Oregon is well-founded.

From: Zim
19-Oct-20
If I were pessimistic I would not have cashed 20 PTO days, and invested in all the travel expenses to fly cross country. In fact looking back at it I can say I wish I’d been pessimistic enough to dump my points and walk away, which I did consider. But no I gave Oregon the benefit of the doubt and got burned. What I can say is I am pleased I insured our trip by squeezing in some quality tourist stuff for the wife. We visited Yosemite & Crater Lake among other things. And stayed at a 5 star Reno casino hotel on the cheap. So it wasn’t a total loss. Biggest price was blowing valuable PTO days I actually could have spent on real hunting.

I hope I can save some other fellow Invested Bowsiters a similar experience.

From: greg simon
19-Oct-20
Long ago when I first entered the points race I made the tactical decision that for Oregon "The juice ain't worth the squeeze" so I never got in there. Looks like I made the right call. Thanks for the info Zim!

And kudos to you for helping out fellow Bowsiters as well!!!

From: WapitiBob
19-Oct-20
ODFW doesn't peddle "perceived value". You perceived a value based on points needed to draw. Points to draw are a simple function of supply and demand on a singular state basis. Warner is one of the better Antelope and Deer units in this state but, what's "good" here has no correlation to what's good in NM, AZ, or WY.

From: midwest
19-Oct-20
Ike, you forgot "pugnacious". ;-)

From: BOHNTR
19-Oct-20
Maybe you're just not that good of a hunter? (J/K) :) Sorry, Zim, couldn't resist.

From: Zim
19-Oct-20
WB - There are many factors that go into perceiving a value. Points required is just a single one of them. My best hunting buddy lives in Oregon and had hunted this unit, among many others. I got input from many other sources as well. I knew going in it was sketchy quality. It was a close call but at least this happened in a year I failed to draw a tag in any other state. And I am thrilled to permanently stop donating money to a liberal state, and officially exit their dumpster fire. So it’s not all bad!

From: Zim
19-Oct-20
BHNTR - Don’t know. Never claimed to be. But would not matter because you can’t hunt what’s not there. Not intending to offend anyone or any state DNR. In fact I live in one mismanaged deer state (IN) and hold a LL in a liberal mismanaged deer state (IL). Just facing reality and trying to help others. It’s still a good year for me by just overcoming several physical problems including rotator cuff damage enough to simply draw my vertical bow and not go xgun. Good luck to all fellow Bowsiters this season.

From: elkmtngear
19-Oct-20
Killed a few bucks, and chased a few elk back in the Mid 90s, in the John Day region. Thought I'd give Oregon another chance back in 2012, and I regretted it.

That being said, I've never put in for any of the LE units, but what I'm seeing in the General units certainly does not justify building points.

From: goyt
19-Oct-20
I stopped sending money to OR about 20 years ago. I feel validated now. Thank you!

From: wyliecoyote
19-Oct-20
Zim, I have accumulated more Oregon PPs than I will ever use...can you tell me which hunts you went on that were way below reasonable expectations....

Thanks, Joe

From: BOHNTR
19-Oct-20
Yeah, Zim......I pulled out of that state's system a long time ago for the same reasons. It's ashamed what has happened to the Hart Mountain hunt(s).

From: Zim
19-Oct-20
Wylie, Both my lope & deer hunts were in Warner. But I don’t think it matters. Bad predator management creates deer snacks statewide. If you live near Oregon it might be worth burning the pronghorn points. If you are retired, not losing PTO days, and are OK with a glorified hiking trip, then it’s a different story. For me personally, you are a loser on any of these hunts if it’s costing you PTO days. You could be on a real hunt somewhere instead. Or just cashing in your unused PTO days January 1st.

19-Oct-20
Oregon, kind of like WA...They don’t really care if you (A non-resident) want to hunt there! Just the way it is...

From: Royboy
20-Oct-20
I agree about poor management however I disagree about the top three units not being worthy. I helped a friend in the Walla Walla unit a couple years ago and it was a great hunt. He ended up getting a 368” bull . It truly was a different class of elk. I feel bad for those that are stuck in no mans land but if you look hard their are ways out of your dilemma. Pm me if you have points and wonder where you might burn them. Also remember if you buy the license for elk points don’t forget to apply for Mt goat and bighorn sheep, neither have points just a straight lottery.

From: wyliecoyote
20-Oct-20
I just burned 16 PPs for the Keno buck Bow tag (season Nov 2-19)....Am I gonna be dissappointed?? Hunting the last 7 days and hoping for snow and rut....

Joe

From: WapitiBob
20-Oct-20
Maybe, it only took 5 points to draw.

From: Drnaln
20-Oct-20
Oregon has been really good to me.

From: DonVathome
20-Oct-20
Thanks Zim! I never got on the Oregon hamster wheel. I apply for a LOT of tags but skipped them. Glad I did.

From: Zim
20-Oct-20
RB, I did caveat my review by posting the elk hunt value was better than the goat or deer, but that hunt was still no where near paying or waiting 22 years for a NR. The ODFW fills those units with spike hunters, and they are inundated with wolves (lots of them) which grossly diminishes the quality, and thus I rated that equivalent to a 4 point WY unit. A 368” is not impossible but not typical for even a big three. More average is 300-320” unless you have horses to escape the spike pressure. That’s very realistic. With NR quotas we are only talking a few NR tags for all big three units combined. Most NR’s building OR points will never even sniff a big three tag in their lifetimes. Just donate a lot of coin.

From: NoWiser
20-Oct-20
I think attitude has more to do with the quality of hunt that you experience than anything. I'd rather go on a 2 point hunt with a good attitude than a 30 point hunt with a lousy one.

From: Firsty
20-Oct-20
Zim has been crying and pouting on forums for over 20 years. I can imagine he would be a great guy to share a camp with...............smh.

From: TurboT
20-Oct-20
I don’t know Zim, but I know hunting in Oregon. He is pretty accurate. Our state manages hunter numbers much more than health of herds compared to other states. I have been fortunate to hunt elk in 6 states and have spent a lot of time in our big 3 units. Our big 3 are good but pale in comparison to average units in other states.

From: smurph
20-Oct-20
Um, I would say a 368" bull is uncommon anywhere. That said I live in Oregon and agree Hart mountain is a disaster right now! Elk is decent for residents as it relates to quality/preference points, but is a rip off for nonresidents due to low tag allotment. P.S. I feel like Utah isn't far behind Oregon on screwing the nonresident DIY hunters.

From: sdkhunter
20-Oct-20
It would seem like to me you got about what you should have expected out of the hunt? I don't think anyone that has spent any amount of time researching hunts/states would think that an Oregon elk or mule deer hunt would be on par with what you could experience in some of the other states high end units that manage their resources differently? (don't mean any offense by it) I remember reading someplace years ago that if you build in OR, you are essentially buying a lottery ticket or investment in case they have a worthy hunt down the road - not because of what they have now... At the end of the day - its peoples responsibility to know what they buying and the value. There is a reason I don't build in OR, NV, UT - for me it's not that I feel in my case that the hunts wouldn't be worthwhile - it's just that the cost doesn't match up with what I feel the experience should be and mix in the percentage of NR tags, etc - just not worth it for me personally.

From: stealthycat
20-Oct-20
"The only worse investment in my life was marrying my dead beat ex in 1985. Keep your money"

I don't know about the Oregon thing but I married a demon witch in 1995 and stayed married 24 years and you're right - NOTHING is worse !!

From: badbull
20-Oct-20
Zim, thanks for the update. I bowhunted Oregon in the late 1970's and early 1980's. It was going downhill back then so I avoided the point game with them as they are not NR friendly. I really like some of the western states but glad l quit Oregon especially after your verifying what I had thought was the case.........Badbull

From: TurboT
20-Oct-20
I don’t know Zim, but I know hunting in Oregon. He is pretty accurate. Our state manages hunter numbers much more than health of herds compared to other states. I have been fortunate to hunt elk in 6 states and have spent a lot of time in our big 3 units. Our big 3 are good but pale in comparison to average units in other states.

From: Zim
21-Oct-20
sdkh, As I mentioned a couple times, the state was not rated so poorly back when I began applying 23 years ago. So you must keep that in perspective. From what I’ve heard quality was better back in 2009 when I would have drawn if not for liberal outfitter welfare. Not many wolves back then too.

Bottom line is if you are a NR and building points in Oregon, in most cases I’d strongly recommend considering dumping your points and simply exiting the money grab. Or if you can keep your expenses VERY low, cash all the points now for whatever units you can draw, then exit promptly. But stop investing $170/year ASAP. With the 2 1/2% quota unless you are in the top point pools for your units it’s definitely not worth holding out. Just my opinion based on first hand experience. I have great hunts everywhere else I have gone.

From: BULELK1
21-Oct-20
How many Zim handles are there on the bowsite?

Thanks for the heads-up Ken, although, I never have had any desire to hunt Oregon other than maybe for a Rossie Bull.

Good luck, Robb

From: Hackbow
21-Oct-20

Hackbow's Link
Oregon hunting may not be great, I wouldn't know. But the OP whining, pissing and moaning about how bad hunting is in (name of state) has become one of the more reliable themes on Bowsite. He has bashed IN for decades and when IL didn't have a Booner tied to every tree like he believed, he bashes them now as well. The attached link is a recent look at which states produce the deer with the most bone on their heads. Pay special attention to the results since '08. Horn porn addiction must be a horrible thing to go through.

From: Zim
21-Oct-20
Hack bow, The first sentence of your personal attack says it all. NR investors on the Oregon treadmill could care less about your opinion because you don’t know anything about the topic. They don’t care about your personal attacks. They are not helpful nor productive in any way, shape or form. Get a life.

As I’ve said, I’m not posting here to offend any residents. But they don’t have to deal with 2 1/2% quotas. I’m here strictly to warn fellow nonresidents that for whatever reason found themselves buying into this state’s system. I used near max points to draw three “big 3” tags. I think if I had current NR points there, I would appreciate the constructive opinion of someone in my position. I would care less about your’s HB.

To those few whining about my negative reviews on Bowsite, why ignore all my positive ones such as those about my recent Iowa, Arizona & Wyoming hunts??? Go figure. Put the rose colored glasses down. Just say no to those as well.

From: Zim
21-Oct-20
Rob, I’m the original. Old timer been a member here since............1996. Yup. Long time. But ya allowing duplicate handles is kind of odd.

From: WapitiBob
21-Oct-20
I'm waiting for you to post on the sites where you asked for help, ifish and monster muleys.

On another note, you could have Elk hunted at least twice over those 20+ years in a unit that produced more 350 bulls than any of the "big 3" over that time.

From: Firsty
21-Oct-20
At it again

From: Drnaln
21-Oct-20
Gotta love Bob! He says a lot in very few words!

From: Zim
21-Oct-20
WB,

Post what?

Yes and I’m sure over that same time span I could have also drawn 3 NR tags In Oregon units that produced more 240” mule deer & 90” pronghorns. My bad.

From: Zim
21-Oct-20
WB, Also the number of 350” bulls taken in 4 point & below Wyoming units would blow away the entire total of all Oregon units combined. And don’t even bother considering deer & pronghorn. Hahaha. I think my analogy of comparing OR’s top quality to 4 point, 2 point & OTC hunts elsewhere is very accurate as many have agreed. That is what will help other NR OR point builders make their 2021 & beyond application decisions. They deserve to know the reality. I’m not providing a biased opinion. Just the truth based on my first hand experiences.

21-Oct-20
One thing some people tend to do is look at point costs and ascribe units value due to those points, when in reality, the point cost is more influenced by when the state instituted their point system - CO being one of the first and WY being one of the last. If Wyoming had instituted its point system for elk/deer/ph a decade earlier when many of the other states did, tags would cost a lot more points by now.

I absolutely agree with you though, that the money needed for an NR to get 20+ points in OR is not worth it and I'm someone who happily sends NV $200 every year.

From: bowhunt
22-Oct-20
I would think a lot of the NR buying points in Oregon might hunt here anyways on the over the counter tags. That is all going to change on the the eastside of the state ext year. All east side mule deer hunts will be a draw. All east side elk hunts are scheduled to go to a draw for 2022. This will end applying for the top tier units and building points, and then hunting over the counter tags east of the cascade mountains.

I hunt the east side of the state for elk. I’m very glad I drew a top tier tag in 2016 with Max points, and my hunting partner drew last year with max points.

This change in the archery tag process will probably create quite a shake up. Since we both drew our tags, and likely would never draw again, I’ll just apply every year in the current otc unit I hunt. The change will probably have a positive effect on my hunting. If I had 12-14 points to I would be pretty upset with this change. You would be 3-7 years away from drawing 2 of the 3 top elk tags, and unable to elk hunt the east side until you get the tag you are waiting for.

From: Dan Mallia
03-Dec-20
I buy an Oregon license every year for OTC Archery deer (and waterfowl and turkey) and have been buying points for a while. I know what I've got myself into as I'm at the stage in my accrued points that I'm a ways from getting a great unit but have too many points to burn on a so/so unit. It's like with all the NR points I've been putting in for the last decade or so. I feel I'm making an investment in an "opportunity" to hunt. My career keeps me locked down in the summer and early fall so when I retire I plan on burning all my points a few years after on good, solid units. I've realized that the blue chip, awesome units are probably not in my reach so I'll draw a tag, do my homework and give it all I can with the "opportunity" afforded me.

From: TreeWalker
03-Dec-20
Oregon does not manage for a single "trophy" big game limited draw hunt. I have over 20 elk points and there is not a hunt that is not screwed over by F&G running 100s of spike or cow elk hunters through the unit before and/or during the hunt. I agree with what Zim posted and if you are not trying to draw a Blue chip unit the pain is still real as you need a unit with 100 or 200 tags just to have a decent chance to snag a tag due to the sub 10% allotment to hunters in the draw which is about 1/2 of the allotment as outfitters get a cut. I used to be an Oregon resident or never would have started "investing" in points there.

From: BOWUNTR
04-Dec-20
I pulled out about 6-8 years ago. The only reason I'd get back it would be to get a better Roosevelt elk tag of Columbia Whitetail tag. Ed F

From: Dale06
04-Dec-20
What Ike said above. I also lived there in the early 80s. Had some good black tail, elk and bear hunting. Would never consider living or hunting there again. The state has flushed itself in many ways.

From: DonVathome
07-Dec-20
I cannot speak from experience but I apply extensively out west for around 50 tags. I never applied to Oregon which says a lot because I did not mind the cost and really want to harvest every species I can DIY - and currently I apply nowhere for roosy elk. Given how aggressively I apply I skip Oregon (and CA and WA).

From: Ollie
07-Dec-20
Why are you accumulating so many points in Oregon if the hunting is not that good? Spend your money getting points in states with better opportunities.

From: rjlefty3
07-Dec-20
I dunno guys, while Zim isn't exactly the most optimistic in outlook - his point here was that it wasn't worth the time and effort to build points in OR. Maybe I/you/we knew that before and weren't doing it, but if anyone wasn't it should make them at least think twice about it.

He never said that there weren't any big animals, it's impossible, etc. Just that it wasn't worth the time and effort. I don't apply for those very reasons. At least my thought process is somewhat validated.

From: WapitiBob
07-Dec-20
20 years ago it was more than worth it but most had their heads in magazines and believed the advise that said to hunt wenaha, mt emily, or walla walla.

From: Glunker
07-Dec-20
I had accumulated about 6 OR pts for several species in 2006 and walked away. Just like i did a couple of years ago in WY with 11 moose pts. You need to crunch the numbers to know where the odds are.

From: Zim
08-Dec-20
Ya me too I walked away from 12 WY sheep points same time when they jacked the nonrefundable to $100. Cashed WY moose points and promptly exited that as well. As you say ya gotta crunch the numbers. It's a little more difficult for NR OR investors. That's why I am trying to bring attention to them. For the vast majority (but not all), they need to walk away now.

From: Grey Ghost
08-Dec-20
Zim,

I have to ask, how much scouting effort did you put into you OR hunts? Did you spend any time actually burning some boot leather in the areas before your hunt?

The reason I ask is, I met a bowhunter, Bob, on my 22 point Colorado elk hunt this year who had a strikingly similar attitude as you have about OR. His scouting consisted of a friend circling a few spots on an old tattered BLM map. Bob showed up the day before the season started expecting to see 350" bulls behind every juniper tree. After only one day of hunting he told me the unit was "way over-rated", and he wouldn't pay $40 for the tag again, even if took zero points. Bob lasted 3 days, then packed up and went home. I went on to have a hunt of my lifetime.

My point is, hunters can have completely different attitudes, expectations, and commitment levels to a hunt, and their experiences can vary widely. I'm sure Bob is telling anyone who'll listen that the unit we hunted is garbage and not worth the wait, while I have the polar opposite opinion.

Matt

From: Treeline
08-Dec-20
My experience in OR was amazing this year. Can’t complain!

From: Grey Ghost
08-Dec-20
Tavis,

I was thinking of you when I posted.

Matt

From: Zim
08-Dec-20
GG, My best hunting buddy is a lifelong Oregon resident. This was part of the reason I decided to get in their game 23 years ago. He has hunted Warner several times. As I live in Indiana, obviously I can't scout in advance of my hunt. I did arrive a week early to scout and spent the full hunts there. A big handicap was no ATV. I typically backpack wilderness areas, but this unit was not conducive to that. My buddy went there two weeks in advance to scout. Then brought his camper again and helped scout with me immediately in advance of my hunt. It didn't matter. As I have stated, I'm not advising ALL NR's to bail. If a guy lives right next door in Idaho or Nevada and can scout extensively and often, like you would on an OTC hunt, that may be just fine. But the vast majority of the western hunts I wait 20 years for have been pretty much outstanding to anyone who has basic knowledge of big game behavior. One week has always been adequate for scouting. It is certainly not the case in Oregon. That's what I'm trying to point out to all the guys stacking points in OR. As many have agreed, I think my WY 4 point/2 point/OTC analogy is reasonably accurate. I think the few residents who disagree with my evaluation don't take in mind the 2 1/2% NR quota which basically locks NR into their current point pools. Not much to look forward to.

From: Grey Ghost
08-Dec-20
I have a feeling we're going to hear a completely different opinion about Oregon, when Tavis gets around to re-capping his hunt.

Matt

From: Drnaln
08-Dec-20
I really enjoy hunting Oregon every year but live just a few miles from the border. I've drawn elk, deer & pronghorn tags & had great hunts for all 3. I hunt OTC blacktail every year & the last few years I've purchased an archery OTC elk tag. In 2019 I didn't punch my elk tag but this year I got lucky & arrowed a great Roosevelt bull on public ground. Probably not worth it for some to spend the money but I love to hunt & Oregon gives me more time in the woods!

From: Tilzbow
08-Dec-20
I’ve seen a pattern with Zim over the years. He discourages others from applying and is consistently critical of western point systems, yet he’s drawn some great tags. One could come to the conclusion that’s he’s trying to discourage others from applying to improve his and his family’s draw odds. Hmmm....

From: Drnaln
08-Dec-20
^^^^^ I think some guys expect too much when they apply for tags & finally draw. Areas change all the time & hunters change as "Father Time" works against us. I really enjoy spending time in the woods & have ate some pretty good tags over the years. Still tasting my Arizona strip 13B deer tag & 23S elk tag along with several others.

From: Zim
08-Dec-20
Tilzbow, Apparently you haven't read much of this thread. I have zero OR elk points. I have zero OR deer points. I have zero OR pronghorn points. I will never apply there again. Obviously, I have no horse in this race. I'm strictly trying to help others who are investing in this dumpster fire. Period. What are you doing?

And I'm going to mention to my critics again..........Why do you mention my negative reviews while at the same time totally ignore my raving excellent reviews of my last hunts in Arizona (2), Wyoming & Iowa??? (crickets chirping) Your wild accusations of someone you never met not only don't hold water, but leak like a rusted out sieve.

I have more points in 8 states than I can even use in my lifetime. So I'm just trying to prevent others from making the same mistake I did. Sorry if you can't get a grip on that. I wish someone had told me this before I wasted 20 PTO days. The vast majority of those leaving comments here agree with me, not you.

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