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Wolves Delisted
Small Game
Contributors to this thread:
No Mercy 29-Oct-20
LINK 29-Oct-20
No Mercy 29-Oct-20
Jaquomo 29-Oct-20
No Mercy 29-Oct-20
Ucsdryder 29-Oct-20
jjs 29-Oct-20
TrapperKayak 29-Oct-20
chukarchump 29-Oct-20
Mule Power 29-Oct-20
Jaquomo 29-Oct-20
KSflatlander 29-Oct-20
Ucsdryder 29-Oct-20
KSflatlander 29-Oct-20
[email protected] 30-Oct-20
Ermine 30-Oct-20
[email protected] 30-Oct-20
Treefarm 30-Oct-20
KSflatlander 30-Oct-20
KSflatlander 30-Oct-20
KSflatlander 30-Oct-20
wackmaster2 30-Oct-20
Norseman 30-Oct-20
WapitiBob 31-Oct-20
TEmbry 31-Oct-20
KSflatlander 31-Oct-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
Ermine 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
IdyllwildArcher 01-Nov-20
RT 01-Nov-20
Jaquomo 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
Jaquomo 01-Nov-20
Jaquomo 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
Jaquomo 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
Matt 01-Nov-20
Jaquomo 01-Nov-20
Jaquomo 01-Nov-20
[email protected] 01-Nov-20
KSflatlander 01-Nov-20
Jaquomo 01-Nov-20
[email protected] 01-Nov-20
Matt 02-Nov-20
KSflatlander 02-Nov-20
KSflatlander 02-Nov-20
TrapperKayak 02-Nov-20
From: No Mercy
29-Oct-20

No Mercy's Link
It’s finally happening

From: LINK
29-Oct-20
About time. Can you say winning!

From: No Mercy
29-Oct-20

No Mercy's Link
Hunters-go take this survey please!

From: Jaquomo
29-Oct-20
Buckle up for the next lawsuit in front of a liberal, sympathetic judge.

From: No Mercy
29-Oct-20
OH for sure Jaq-Humane Society is sharing the hell out of the DNR survey I posted above. I am guessing it will be tomorrow that we will see the lawsuits.

From: Ucsdryder
29-Oct-20
How does colorados ballot 114 play into this? My understanding is that they can’t do anything until they’re delisted, assuming this goes to court, does 114 (assuming it passes) still happen? Or does it get put on hold until the lawsuits are done?

From: jjs
29-Oct-20
About time, we are increasingly in contact with wolves each year in northern Mn, they have no fear of humans.

From: TrapperKayak
29-Oct-20
Good, a move in the right direction. Hope it sticks.

From: chukarchump
29-Oct-20
And yet again another reason to vote Trump. Thank You

From: Mule Power
29-Oct-20
For sure Lou. I wouldn’t get too excited just yet. Judge Malloy is cracking his knuckles with a smug look on his face!

From: Jaquomo
29-Oct-20
My understanding is that delisting opens the door for the forced intro into CO after the initiative passes. Without delisting, USFWS is still in control no matter what passes at the ballot box. That is how I interpreted it (and was explained by someone smarter than I)

From: KSflatlander
29-Oct-20
Based on my experience with the Endangered Species Act, Lou is correct. Delisting will open the door to CO reintroduction.

From: Ucsdryder
29-Oct-20
Soooo for selfish reasons a lawsuit halting the delisting would be good for keeping wolves out of colorado? At least short term.

From: KSflatlander
29-Oct-20
Possibly, the state of Colorado would have to get a ESA permit from the USFWS to do it while they are listed. Getting the permit would take a lot of time and $$$ and likely delay the reintroduction.

If delisted it’s a state only issue.

30-Oct-20
I believe in WI the season starts as soon as this del-listing goes into effect which should be January 4th. They have a state law that says there will be a wolf season ending in February so unless a lawsuit stops it, they should be up and running.

From: Ermine
30-Oct-20
Dang so for Colorado we don’t want them delisted. I’m sure the vote will pass. To many people here think it would be neat to see a wolf

30-Oct-20
Ideally they would have just delisted them in the Great Lakes Region (again), but even though it makes our situation likely worse here in CO, I'm glad they can start managing them up there.

The prowolfers love the ESA until following it no longer serves their purpose, then they just switch to lawsuits with the USFW suddenly becoming their enemy.

From: Treefarm
30-Oct-20
The continual argument in the lawsuits revolves around the fact wolves have not reestablished much of their former range, even like where much of Chicago has built up. Using that premise, elk and bison need to expand . The argument wolves have not fully recovered to historic range is silly. It simply is impossible for wolves to expand in all historical range of the lower 48 because post-European settlement has changed the dynamics. It is simply unfair to force wolves to try to live in what is now sub-marginal habitat crisscrossed with roads and houses.

Yet another is, “get rid of ranches and farms”. What pro-wolfers don’t understand is, these ranches and farms grew in the absence of wolves. Wolves had been extirpated. Is this fair to single out that segment, just to bring wolves back into submarginal habitat, only to have conflicts??

The fact is, wolves are wilderness animals. When their population increases, the excess are forced into non-wilderness area. Very little true wilderness remains in much of USA.

From: KSflatlander
30-Oct-20
Shawn Magyar/KD is Native American lol...kind of like Elizabeth Warren is.

From: KSflatlander
30-Oct-20
Shawn/KD- Seriously you think we don’t know who you are. You have been kicked off Bowsite so many times for your stupid crap.

You are Shawn Magyar/Hedgehunter/HH/Koa Puna...I’m sure I’m missing a few handles. You are also a liar. Kind of below a Ranger don’t you think.

From: KSflatlander
30-Oct-20
It’s funny you say your not Shawn Magyar as you are sharing a photo of a deer he shot, from the same location he shot it, with the exact same custom made self bow he shot it with.

So if you shoot a bow made by Shawn Magyar and you don’t know him...how do you come in possession of a Hedgehunter custom SELFbow?

Seriously Shawn, give it up cause you’re not good at it.

From: wackmaster2
30-Oct-20
bring it

From: Norseman
30-Oct-20
And Minnesotans up north all arewearing Covid masks too.....r-i-g-h-t

From: WapitiBob
31-Oct-20
I believe Colorado will want wolves delisted even if it means a state introduction; the state can set minimum and maximum numbers as well as methods of control. As long as the feds are in charge the wolf population can and will go unchecked until such time as the state and feds reach a management agreement.

From: TEmbry
31-Oct-20
Regardless of the situation for each individual state, this is the right decision. The point of the Endangered Species Act is to rehabilitate a failing species and then delist them for individual states to manage on their own as with all other species. If a particular state is liberal or messes up the management, It’s not a reason to misuse or overuse federal authority through this protection act. We constantly whine about animal rights activists misusing the court systems and federal government to supersede states management. We can’t have it both ways but only when it suites us as hunters.

From: KSflatlander
31-Oct-20
Shawn Magyar/HH/Hedgehunter/KD is wrong again. Stop making crap up and spreading misinformation, telling tall stories, or just outright lying.

Red wolves (subspecies; Canis lupus rufus) are in the east and are smaller than Gray wolves (Canis lupus) in the Rockies and northern U.S. Mexican gray wolves (subspecies; Canis lupus baileyi) are in the southwest and are also smaller than Gray wolf in the Rockies.

Pick up a book and read or just google it before you spew your crap.

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20
Nice link Shawn Magyar lol. “ Red wolves are only found in a small area of coastal North Carolina.” Please show me a link that’s says red or Mexican wolves are bigger.

I’d also like to see a link where I said they won’t be delisted. Again another lie.

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20

KSflatlander's Link
“The red wolf (Canis rufus) is a native North American canid intermediate in size between the coyote (Canis latrans) and gray wolf (Canis lupus).”

“Range: Eastern North Carolina”

Wrong again Shawn.

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20

KSflatlander's Link
“The Mexican wolf is the rarest subspecies of gray wolf in North America. Once common throughout portions of the southwestern United States...”

“A typical Mexican wolf weighs between. 50-80 pounds, is about 5 ½ feet in length including the tail (German Shepard size)”

Wrong again Shawn Magyar/KD/HH/hedgehunter/ 5 time banned Bowsite poster.

From: Ermine
01-Nov-20
Speaking of endangered... why are they on the endangered list anyways? Isn’t that a mid use of the word? There are 60,000 of them in Canada. They aren’t on the brink of extinction

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20
Because the ESA covers U.S. species. American wildlife species...doesn’t look at world wide populations.

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20

KSflatlander's embedded Photo
KSflatlander's embedded Photo
This photo was from this morning. 2 does and a fork horn.

Nice try Shawn the imposter.

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20
Truly ironic that a guy lying about his identity accuses another of the same thing they are currently doing...while they are doing it.

What kind of traditional bow do you shoot...oh yeah...a Hedgehunter custom SELFbow. It says so on your profile. Mmmmm...I wonder who makes those? Shawn Magyar

01-Nov-20
If it walks like an HH and talks like an HH, it must be HH.

From: RT
01-Nov-20
I once saw an elitist wood bow shithead at the range. His cedar half pound arrows arced to the 20 yard target, half of them literally smacking it sideways. He said it didn't do that with broadheads.

From: Jaquomo
01-Nov-20
"Because the ESA covers U.S. species, doesn't look at worldwide populations".

Exactly. And one of the major flaws with the ESA, because this stipulation can be manipulated and abused for political purposes. And is, like now with Canadian wolves being listed as "endangered" as soon as they passed through Customs, even though they weren't endangered where they were captured, before they were trucked into the Lower 48.

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20
Lou- would you feel that way if it were elk? I mean there is plenty in Canada so we shouldn’t manage them in the U.S. for Americans to enjoy? Hunters and otherwise.

Should we never have listed and protected bald eagles as endangered because there were plenty in Canada?

It’s about all the values of all Americans. As a biologist I do value all wildlife...even top predators. With that said, I agree with you that the CO wolf ballot biology is a bad idea.

From: Jaquomo
01-Nov-20
This is a different situation because these big Canadian wolves were trucked in and released, and as soon as they ran out of the truck they had the protection of the ESA, which they didn't have a few days prior. They were not native to Wyoming, nor were they native to Colorado.

American "values" WRT wildlife have been artificially groomed by Hollywood and the media over the past 40 years, creating a false narrative for urbanites far removed from any contact with real wildlife. Even 25 years ago this wolf initiative would have failed by a large margin. Now it will pass by a large margin by low information voters who have been fed a total pile of spit about "restoring natural balance" when they have no clue about what that term really means in a state with 6 million people, growing to 10 million.

From: Jaquomo
01-Nov-20
This is a different situation because these big Canadian wolves were trucked in and released, and as soon as they ran out of the truck they had the protection of the ESA, which they didn't have a few days prior. They were not native to Wyoming, nor were they native to Colorado.

American "values" WRT wildlife have been artificially groomed by Hollywood and the media over the past 40 years, creating a false narrative for urbanites far removed from any contact with real wildlife. Even 25 years ago this wolf initiative would have failed by a large margin. Now it will pass by a large margin by low information voters who have been fed a total pile of spit about "restoring natural balance" when they have no clue about what that term really means in a state with 6 million people, growing to 10 million.

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20
I’ll have to disagree with you on the native issue. If the gray wolves that were reintroduced from Canada were not (Canis lupus) then they wouldn’t be delisting them today. Canis lupus that is on the ESA. The same species. The wolves reintroduced were within the size range of native Gray wolves in the American Rockies and northern latitudes. That’s a fact based on science and biology.

By law, if the reintroduced gray wolves were not the same species the USFWS would not be able to reintroduce in the first place.

I don’t know the info for all states but the largest gray wolf taken In Idaho since they were introduced is in the 130lbs. Those wolves are decedents of the gray wolves introduced from Canada.

From: Jaquomo
01-Nov-20

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20

KSflatlander's embedded Photo
KSflatlander's embedded Photo
There is variation in all species.

From: Matt
01-Nov-20
You are missing the point. The wolves introduced from Canada were a different subspecies than the wolves that existed in the region at the time which were physically smaller, different pack size, etc. The Mexican grey wolves are Canis Lupus as well but a different subspecies with significant differences. Therein lies the rub with the Canis Lupus subspecies introduced into Yellowstone.

From: Jaquomo
01-Nov-20
This goes back to the taxonomic battle between lumpers and splitters. In the trout world, all subspecies of cutthroats are lumped into Onchoryncus Clarkii species. But there are many subspecies, some of which are extinct, some of which are endangered, some of which are common as houseflies. But you can't dump Colorado River Cutthroats into Greenback Cutthroat habitat and claim they are Greenbacks simply because they are the same "species". And give ESA protection to the Colorado River fish simply because they were dumped into where Greenbacks used to live. Yet that's exactly what has been done with wolves.

From: Jaquomo
01-Nov-20
BTW, the photo I posted is from the Smithsonian showing the comparison between the extinct southern subspecies and the Canadian subspecies. Not a local variation like your antler comparison.

01-Nov-20
Canus Lupus Irremotus and Canis Lupus Youngi were the native wolves here in Colorado. Both smaller than the C.L. Occidentalis they introduced in WY, ID & MT. Same species, different subspecies shaped over likely thousands of years due to geographic area, prey base, weather, competition, etc..

From: KSflatlander
01-Nov-20

KSflatlander's Link
If you feel the USFWS did not reintroduce the same species under the ESA then you should sue them...you would win easily and the protection for Canis lupus would have ended long ago. But your argument has been tried before and it didn’t hold up in court. I guess they lumped it instead of splitting it.

From: Jaquomo
01-Nov-20
As I mentioned earlier, the ESA has been used as a political cudgel, and federal agencies applying the ESA usually have political motivations. The USFWS could challenge this taxonomic lumping, but it doesn't serve their purpose because wolf dumping is a major long-term (almost permanent) initiative, justifies funding, and frankly, justifies the jobs of a whole bunch of USFWS funding. They are all over the splitting of Cutthroat trout for the same reasons.

01-Nov-20
Suing for introducing a different species would get no where since it is the same species (Canis Lupus) Suing because its a different subspecies won't get anywhere due to what Jaq already posted.

Regardless, the wolves put in the west now are bigger than the ones that were killed off. When Colorado has a thriving population they will start to overlap with the Mexican Wolf (Canis Lupus Baileyi) if they range similarly to what the WY wolves do currently. No one seems to dispute that Mexican wolves are a distinct subspecies and are definitely smaller. Mexican wolves, although Canis Lupus, are not included in the recent delisting. Not sure who will be on what side of the issue if they start losing their genetic distinction due to the bigger wolves moving in.

Sometimes being a subspecies means nothing, other times it means everything.

From: Matt
02-Nov-20
This is one of those threads where everyone but one guy gets it, and no one's opinion is going to be changed.

The only remaining question is, in threads like there where there is the one guy who represents the opposition and posts 5x more than everyone else, why is he always from Kansas?

From: KSflatlander
02-Nov-20
First- I thought this was a discussion forum...my mistake.

Second- my points were on the ESA listing for which I have 25 years experience dealing with the USFWS on the issue. So Matt it may be you that “doesn’t get it.” You want to call me the opposition that’s fine. Try to make me out to be the problem or the opposition if it makes you feel better. Just keep narrowing down the coalition. Build your coalition with people like Shawn Magyar/KD/HH/Hedgehunter. That should help things.

There’s more value to wildlife and wild places than can you hunt it and kill it.

Carry on fellas.

From: KSflatlander
02-Nov-20
Pig Doc- please show me where I denied the Mackenzie and Northern Rocky Mountain wolf weren’t subspecies. Or were I denied that Mackenzie subspecies was used in the reintroduction. I simply stated that the variation between the subspecies was overlapping and they fill the same niche. I provided evidence as the the current size of wolves that are the descendants of the reintroduction wolves. It’s a scientific fact that a large Northern Rocky Mountain subspecies wolf can be bigger than a Mackenzie subspecies. They are biologically not very different.

You all would be just fine should they have reintroduced the Northern Rocky Mountain subspecies? You really think they wouldn’t have preyed on elk the same as the Mackenzie subspecies?

IMO as a wildlife biologist the super wolf stuff doesn’t hold water. The Mackenzie and Northern Rocky Mountain subspecies ranges historically overlapped. Their size variation overlapped. Look up the size range for both subspecies. Some want to discuss them like the are separate species. They are not. That argument didn’t work in the past and won’t in the future IMO.

Point well taken though. You all don’t want to hear different opinions. Cool.

It is ironic that Chad sits on his high ground about admitting when someone is wrong when Shawn Magyar is talking about a super red wolf and saying the stupidest stuff that is easily proved wrong. What a joke. Where was your lecture about that Pig Doc? Seems a bit hypocritical don’t you think? Or maybe it’s just that you can’t stand that I’m a hunter who isn’t in the “can I kill it” crowd?

I’m out.

From: TrapperKayak
02-Nov-20
LOL, very entertaining. I thought I'd never see this stuff again after 8 mos out of the picture but its all still here. Like a bad dream.

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