Biden Interior pick great for hunters
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Jaquomo 19-Dec-20
Pat Lefemine 19-Dec-20
Adventurewriter 19-Dec-20
Jaquomo 19-Dec-20
White Falcon 19-Dec-20
Jaquomo 19-Dec-20
Glunt@work 19-Dec-20
White Falcon 19-Dec-20
Matt 19-Dec-20
White Falcon 19-Dec-20
Drnaln 19-Dec-20
LBshooter 19-Dec-20
White Falcon 19-Dec-20
White Falcon 19-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 19-Dec-20
Drnaln 19-Dec-20
JohnMC 19-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 19-Dec-20
Mike in CT 19-Dec-20
Bou'bound 19-Dec-20
Jaquomo 19-Dec-20
drycreek 19-Dec-20
Old School 19-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 19-Dec-20
JohnMC 19-Dec-20
Jaquomo 19-Dec-20
ahunter76 19-Dec-20
ahunter76 19-Dec-20
JohnMC 19-Dec-20
jdee 19-Dec-20
Percy 19-Dec-20
jstephens61 19-Dec-20
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Bowbaker 19-Dec-20
altitude sick 19-Dec-20
bigswivle 19-Dec-20
bowbender77 19-Dec-20
Jaquomo 19-Dec-20
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Stix 19-Dec-20
jingalls 19-Dec-20
wilhille 19-Dec-20
Woods Walker 19-Dec-20
Stix 19-Dec-20
JohnMC 19-Dec-20
Stix 19-Dec-20
ahunter76 19-Dec-20
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Adventurewriter 19-Dec-20
KSflatlander 19-Dec-20
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Stix 19-Dec-20
Bowfreak 19-Dec-20
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From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20

Jaquomo's Link
Tongue firmly planted in cheek. She is super-left, all about "environmental justice". Co-sponsor of Green New Deal. Expect many policies that are bad for hunting if she is somehow confirmed. You Bidenistas should be thrilled!

From: Pat Lefemine
19-Dec-20
Wonder where she is on the polar bear importation issue?

19-Dec-20
No wait Lou your just getting caught up in Silly details Orange man out all is good....

So she starts declaring all public lands are stolen lands from the Indians ohhh private land too....in our PC environment who will call her out... Nobody will.

When I first became aware of the green new deal I thought it was from the Onion ..this has to be parody...nope they are that dumb

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
Pat, I'm sure polar bear importation lifting will be her third EO, right after relisting wolves and declaring anyone with at least 1/8 Indian ancestry as immune from all state wildlife laws and seasons.

From: White Falcon
19-Dec-20
Dang people, get over it, YOU LOST THE ELECTION, and trump pulled a fast one on you SHEEPEL!

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
White falcon, you wouldn't spout that garbage if you were a hunter. Instead, today you are trolling Bowsite in your capris, with a severe man-bun, in the far corner of a Starbucks

From: Glunt@work
19-Dec-20
All that matters is that Trump can be an arrogant jerk and doesn't pretend not to be.

To teach him a lesson, people voted in folks with terrible policies who are arrogant jerks that sometimes pretend not be.

It makes perfect sense to some. Given the options, I was fine with the arrogant jerk who's policy moves I agreed with.

From: White Falcon
19-Dec-20
Don't think so. Does the truth hurt! I think so!

19-Dec-20
Ok seriously. Can we stop with the childish bickering with politics? I’m here to read about bowhunting. Not read two grown men bitch and moan about political affairs because its late season.

Sorry for the language but I’m sick of it.

From: Matt
19-Dec-20
"White falcon, you wouldn't spout that garbage if you were a hunter. Instead, today you are trolling Bowsite in your capris, with a severe man-bun, in the far corner of a Starbucks."

You couldn't even weave in a White Claw reference? Would have been too easy to tie it all together. ;-)

From: White Falcon
19-Dec-20

White Falcon's embedded Photo
White Falcon's embedded Photo

From: Drnaln
19-Dec-20
People don't have to open a thread or read a thread but still have to comment on a thread they don't agree with.

From: LBshooter
19-Dec-20
White falcon LMAO. A fast one? Well after the year and half of Joe Bama administration compare notes on Econ and accomplishments. Biden won't last his term and the democrats will be the ones sticking the knife in.

From: White Falcon
19-Dec-20
Glasspoweredhooser, your are more than correct. These looser keep bringing crap up, just like the raciest comments about Obama. They can't except a loss. They clam to be CHRISTIANS, B.S.

From: White Falcon
19-Dec-20
You want more? Have a nice day.

19-Dec-20
For four years you could count the number of threads on one hand about Trump and his negative public land policies. All started by the same few people.

One thing is for sure, Life won’t always be ok if the average American is too dumb and lazy to neglect responsibility of electing people who have the best interest of America in mind. Joe Biden ain’t that guy. And, this nomination is proof of it.

From: Drnaln
19-Dec-20
Infrastructure won't be a problem now. The new Secretary of Transportation is really over qualified for the job. He road a train before & proposed to his husband in an airport terminal. All is going to be OK now!

From: JohnMC
19-Dec-20
So the left wing limp wristed one is going to come on here and make fun on Mexicans accent. Not very woke of you.

19-Dec-20
WF, unless Trump wanted to pay for it with his own money, he can’t be blamed for not getting the funds to do that. Incase you lived under a rock, every budget he proposed was shot down. Even before ‘18.

From: Mike in CT
19-Dec-20
"You want more?"

That depends on whether it's more of recycled talking points that someone else created or if you're actually going to post proof that you're capable of original thought and some critical thinking.

Given your limited history I'd say the former is all you've got offer and frankly, I just as soon pass; regurgitation, while having a vital role in the avian community has no appeal to me in discussion.

"Have a nice day."

Every day above ground is a nice day; I get to marvel at the beauty of a god that can create spectacular wonders along with run-of-the-mill mediocrities who imagine themselves exponentially more intelligent than their works indicate.

Have a nice day with your fellow mediocrities.

From: Bou'bound
19-Dec-20
Blah blah blah. Same old crap.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
Hoosier, this post is ALL about bowhunting and the future of it. The Trump administration did more for hunters than any in our lifetimes. This incoming administration could (likely will) do more to reduce hunting opportunity than any other before them.

If you don't understand that, you deserve what we are about to get.

From: drycreek
19-Dec-20
I’ll just go out on a limb here and say if any guys that hunt voted for Biden they must be addled in the brain. The next four years are gonna rival “The Twilight Zone” for weird and stupid.

19-Dec-20
Re-read my comment. Where did I complain about politics than you two handling things like 8 year olds?

If you’re going to call me out at least have a good foundation to do so. Go back to high school and learn to read.

From: Old School
19-Dec-20
This is just the beginning of Biden “healing the land and bringing us all together”. Get ready for a 4 yr dumpster fire.

From: Grey Ghost
19-Dec-20

Grey Ghost's Link
I'm so relieved the "voice for our wild public lands, waters and wildlife" (aka: the BHA) supports her nomination.

Matt

From: JohnMC
19-Dec-20
I guess we can now say that BHA is in support of the New Green Deal. Not that should surprise anyone.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
Hoosier, why are you on this thread bickering and bitching? Run along and stick your head in the sand.

To paraphrase Leon Trotsky, who was also a "democratic socialist", "You may not be interested in politics, but politics is very interested in you"

From: ahunter76
19-Dec-20

ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
Can't wait for more 1-Cash for Iran 2-Fast & Furious gun deals, 3- Bengahzi 4-Burgdahls & just plain selling out America

From: ahunter76
19-Dec-20

ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
And more of THIs for darn sure.

From: JohnMC
19-Dec-20

JohnMC's Link
Don Jr. said today, "In my next life I want to come back as a Democrat -- but I'm not sure I can get my testosterone that low."

He could talk to a few on bowsite maybe get some pointers on lowering the male testosterone level.

From: jdee
19-Dec-20
Don Jr got that right !!

From: Percy
19-Dec-20
Hey White Falcon, Why don't you take your BS and go have a good day somewhere else! Percy

From: jstephens61
19-Dec-20
Wow, and I thought the “Illinois “ site got ugly!

19-Dec-20
White Falcon mocking Hispanics and clearly her handle is a white supremist tip of the hat...for shame

From: Bowbaker
19-Dec-20
Yep I am from new mexico and she is a real winner. NOT

19-Dec-20
All is good.

The “Journalists” can all go back to sleep.

The sleazy politicians are all oozing back into Washington.

The mere commoner peasant has been defeated. How dare someone from the public think they can come out of nowhere, to be President. without whoring themselves for 40 years first.

Everything can get back to “Normal”. People that have never worked a day in their life getting rich from deals with Iran and China. Joe Biden started out 47 years ago at around 30k per year. Maxed out at what, 180k per year. But yet some how has 3 mansions. And flys everywhere on private jets while lecturing us on global warming. The Swamp is back!

From: bigswivle
19-Dec-20
It’s amazing how volatile politics have become

From: bowbender77
19-Dec-20
WHITE FALCON = CNN

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
I want to apologize to White Falcon. I did not know the bird self identified as a "she". My mistake. Be whatever you want to be. A racist, xenophobic, leftist female from a heavily Hispanic state is a strange anomaly.

19-Dec-20
Altitude sickness for the win.

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
I don't know much about the nominee.

What specifically has she said or done that is bad for the American hunter?

From: jingalls
19-Dec-20

jingalls's embedded Photo
jingalls's embedded Photo
This is for White Sparrow

From: wilhille
19-Dec-20
I can't find anything on her anti hunting stance. I am familiar with her being from new Mexico. Haven't hear anything on anti hunting. Can someone point me the right direction to that references anti hunting or anything else along those lines?

From: Woods Walker
19-Dec-20
First off, Biden couldn't pick his NOSE by himself. His "pick" has NOTHING to do with what he himself believes or thinks. It was made by the hidden power brokers who he's the puppet for. Ask them!!!

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
I don't know much about the nominee.

The statements from from the folks here claim she will be bad for hunting. Please posts specifics.

What specifically has she said or done that is bad for the American hunter?

Without proof, it might look like another example of the Trumplicans spreading misinformation, and I know no one would do this here. Look at the follow-up posts on this thread. What I do see is condemning for every other issue but the nominee. Now you know why the supreme court, with all Trump appointees refusing to take any of the election claims. The answer: just like the follow up posts, no proof of the issue being discussed.

From: JohnMC
19-Dec-20
There is a great example of a typical low IQ Biden voter asking for people to give him information on a internet forum instead of doing some actual research for himself all the while calling the same people Trumplicans spreading misinformation. You can't make this stuff up!

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
As Trump was rejected by unaimously by the supreme court, you have to furnish proof. It's not for the judges or anyone else to look up. That's why the Trumplicans lost their court cases. Accusations are nothing more that that without proof. It's up to the accusers to prove, not anyone else. Expecting that, then the accusers IQ is below zero.

So please, don't fulfill the perceptions of the general public that all Trump supporters are brainless lemmings that will walk right in line with whatever he says.... What proof is there that she is bad for the American hunter? Not a hard question to answer. You have had to have proof to make the accusation. I checked and couldn't find anything, but maybe you know something I don't....

From: ahunter76
19-Dec-20
Hey White Falcon, did I see where your going to be at Callahan Ranch in Texas March 4th?? Javi time??

19-Dec-20
You mean the White Swallow???

19-Dec-20
Ton more evidence that the joke Mueller Investigation just to clear the air Stix how about just 1/10th of the time and effort on this as Mueller...does it bother you that a least half of the county has lost faith in the election process...if it doesn't it should

From: KSflatlander
19-Dec-20
So someone posts that this new DOI Secretary is bad for hunters, Stix asked for info on why they have that opinion, they can’t post anything to back it up and Stix is low information? LMAO. Only JohnMC can follow that kind own logic.

Stix for the win again.

By the way, this thread reminded me that it’s time to renew my BHA membership.

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
Now we're talking about Mueller.

As Trump was rejected by unaimously by the supreme court, you have to furnish proof. It's not for the judges or anyone else to look up. If the accusers are expecting that, then their IQ is way below zero.That's why the Trumplicans lost their court cases. Accusations are nothing more that that without proof.

So please, don't fulfill the perceptions of the general public that all Trump supporters are brainless lemmings that will walk right in line with whatever he says.... What proof is there that she is bad for the American hunter? Not a hard question to answer. You have had to have proof to make the accusation. I checked and couldn't find anything, but maybe you know something I don't....

From: Stix
19-Dec-20

Stix's embedded Photo
Stix's embedded Photo

From: Bowfreak
19-Dec-20
Finally Ksflatlander rides in on his wolf to set everyone straight.

19-Dec-20
Yeah Stix it appears to be hard for some to think in an objective way...I know multi -thinking is hard for some so lets slow down a bit. I see the full out many year bottomless pit of money and full force of the federal Govt to find anything in the Muller investigation a valid comparison....when it appears there is WAAAAY more apparent evidence. Just 1/10th is that asking too much for the sanctity of our elections and wouldn't it be a great opportunity to show Trump supporters what fools they are...lets bring it all out in the open...certainly you are in favor of the truth coming out not matter what that truth is?? Of course your not. But I will give you credit KS Flatbrainer just ignores valid points and move on to mindless chatter

From: KSflatlander
19-Dec-20
Bowfreak- I’m flattered you look for my posts with such anticipation.

Adventurewriter- nice straw man. The only valid point I see on this thread is Stix and GG. It would be a great improvement to see more truth here and in politics. It’s would sure beat most those idiotic memes.

19-Dec-20
As in every debate, liberals or master debaters like to change the topic to fit a narrative. The point never was stating The nominee was anti hunting. The point is she is a very left leaning liberal who openly supports liberal ideas. Which, regardless of those liberals here claiming differently, means she isn’t as friendly to hinting as a more conservative pick would be.

That can’t be argued. Though I am sure it will be. Nor can the irony that the “non political” BHA finds great support in her nomination. National is nothing more then a political tool. I don’t care who’s the members are or who says different. That’s what they’ve proven to be. Over and over again.

I’m just excited to hear the next 4 years of public land scares the average BHA member is going preach since the office of choice for their club, now has the reins. BHA cronies talk about scare tactics of the conservative. Well get ready, even though we are finishing up a 4 year term with the most public land friendly, pro hunter the White House has seen in a half a century or more, we are going to get to hear all the bad they can scare up if the dems don’t win the senate.

From: KSflatlander
19-Dec-20
“ Tongue firmly planted in cheek. She is super-left, all about "environmental justice". Co-sponsor of Green New Deal. Expect many policies that are bad for hunting if she is somehow confirmed. You Bidenistas should be thrilled!”

From the OP.

“As in every debate, liberals or master debaters like to change the topic to fit a narrative.“

Who’s changing the topic?

From: wilhille
19-Dec-20
I just want to know why this is a bad pick! I've found nothing on her stating an anti hunter stance! It's not about me supporting her either because I don't know if I do. I want to know what you guys have found so I can educate myself. All that I've found are mainly about anti fracking, anti public land sales etc. Stuff that doesn't scream anti hunter. I'm not doubting that she might be anti hunting, I just haven't found anything supporting that claim. But if it's just because the guy, who hasn't even started his administration or made one single policy as a president, isn't the guy you voted for and made the nominee and that's why it's a bad pick, it's pretty childish. So, why is she a bad pick for hunters?

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
From the original post:

"Expect many policies that are bad for hunting if she is somehow confirmed."

Let's stick to the proof. Not narratives that even supreme court appointees can't agree with.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
Sorry for the delay in responding. I was working in my PhD dissertation on Liberalism as an Emotional Disorder.

This woman is so left-leaning that she can't see the middle. Rather than doing the research for you, study her core values of "Envitonmental Justice". She co-sponsored the "Thirty by Thirty" initiative, as well as the Green New Deal. She is in favor of choking public lands with gigantic wind and solar farms. You can bet your bottom dollar she will relist wolves.

Name one thing progressives have done to benefit hunting in the past 30 years, besides locking the public out of public lands all over the West by abuse of the Antiquities Act. You can bet your house she will convince Biden to take that to levels never seen before, even worse than Obama.

She will also overturn the ruling that allowed the State of Alaska to manage predators as the biologists see fit.

The fact that Backcountry Hikers and Anglers is so excited about her nomination raises red flags, as well. They hate Trump, hated his nominees, had to grudgingly give him a sliver of credit for finalizing the LWCF, which Obama wouldn't do.

Otherwise, she will be a GREAT choice! Can't wait for the confirmation hearings!

19-Dec-20
I misspoke. In my urge to point out the hypocrisy with liberal bowsite’ers. Lou never said she was anti hunting. Only bad for hunting. Which I plainly stated why that would be the case. So, while I don’t correlate the difference in the two, I get that some do. I mean we are dealing with men who claimed the VP elect never called the president elect a rapist. She just said she believed his accusers. My bad.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
For those too lazy to do research "Environmental Justice" is a principle which seeks to replace capitalism with socialist redistribution of natural resources.

From: wilhille
19-Dec-20
"principle which seeks to replace capitalism with socialist redistribution of natural resources."

Haha sounds like every fish and game department in the nation. Wink wink

Thanks for the clarification that it was just a presumption.

Merry Christmas everyone.

From: sbschindler
19-Dec-20
I applaud the guys who are looking at this objectively

From: Glunt@work
19-Dec-20
I honestly don't know many specifics about her views regarding hunting. I do know from what I have seen her views on most every major issue are incorrect, uninformed or formed from a very different worldview than most hunters I know. From that, its not a stretch to expect poor decisions from her on about anything. Things like the endangered species act and the Antiquities act (creating more national monuments) are likely areas I can see we already part ways.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
How about this- let's end this thread and agree to give her the benefit of the doubt that she will be a great friend of hunters. Then if she is confirmed (unlikely), every time she or her Department enact a policy that is detrimental to hunting, takes away wildlife management from the states, or uses the ESA as a weapon, I'll start a new thread entitled "I told you so"

From: KSflatlander
19-Dec-20

KSflatlander's Link
Lou- no offense but that’s not what environment justice means in regards to federal policy and law. Maybe you are referring to something else?

“ Environmental justice is the fair treatment and meaningful involvement of all people, regardless of race, color, national origin, or income, with respect to the development, implementation, and enforcement of environmental laws, regulations, and policies. Fair treatment means that no population bears a disproportionate share of negative environmental consequences resulting from industrial, municipal, and commercial operations or from the execution of federal, state, and local laws; regulations; and policies.”

The federal government has been doing environmental justice reviews as a part of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) since 1994. It’s has been federal policy for over 25 years.

From: Old School
19-Dec-20
Lou and his baseless assumptions... how can he draw those conclusions based upon the other known facts?

Perhaps it’s called deductive reasoning.

From: Dutch oven
19-Dec-20
I agree with KS Flat, Stix, and others on here. I come here to read about archery and hunting, not to listen to people bicker about politics. It's easy to see where that discussion always ends up. It is too bad this website allows these discussions as they always result in one side bashing the other with junior highish language and grade school "logic". This site could be so much better.

From: djb
19-Dec-20
Lou, I like that idea but I'm afraid you would wear out some keys on your keyboard.

19-Dec-20
I like Lou’s idea. Let’s give it a try.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
KS, you are confusing the official bureaucratic PC definition with the new progressive evolution of policy application, and weaponization of agencies like the EPA. Do some research. The 21st century iteration of Environmental Justice is openly anti capitalist, and now incorporates "Climate Justice" into the operating philosophy. Climate Justice didn't exist in 1994. Read some of the published papers by progressive literati and you'll learn what the imposition of Environmental Justice means to 21st century liberals who who openly want to transform our country into something unrecognizable. Imagine AOC as Secretary of the Interior. With this woman, based upon her leanings, we'll simply get an older, more experienced version.

From: djb
19-Dec-20
People have control over what threads they open and read. If you don't want to read threads like this just don't open them. There are lots of threads I'm not interested but I don't want them banned.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
"Junior highish language"... That's one of the most ironic and hilarious terms posted on Bowsite in a long time. Maybe "gradeschoolerish" would be more appropriate for you. You knew what this thread was about before you opened it. And then you complain about the content? Typical snowflake. Maybe Pat needs a forum entitled "Liberal Snowflake Safe Space" with a rainbow unicorn icon.

From: LUNG$HOT
19-Dec-20

LUNG$HOT's Link
It’s ok guys. We have “lab grown” meat getting ready to hit the shelves. No more need to hunt, fish or even slaughter cows for store bought meat. We can be totally dependent on the socialist government getting ready to infiltrate and take over our once free, great nation. I’m absolutely blown away by anyone who can call themselves a hunter, outdoorsman, or at this point even an American and vote for a candidate who clearly hates and wants to change the very fabric of our country.

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
I'm guessing by some of the posts, there's some folks here that have voluntarily given up their retirement social security checks, refused their medicare coverage, sent back their stimulus checks, refused to hunt on public land, because they are socialist ideals. Am I right? Or are you doing the Hippo Stomp? (Steppenwolf song about hypocrisy.)

From: Mike in CT
19-Dec-20
"As Trump was rejected by unaimously by the supreme court"

Actually this isn't true; Associate Justices Alito and Thomas were in favor of hearing the TX lawsuit the other justices were opposed. I know, it's a moot point in the grand scheme of things but it's embarrassing when (rightly or wrongly) you reference respondents IQ's and post something inaccurate.

"That's why the Trumplicans lost their court cases." I'd suggest checking into how many cases were lost on policy versus merit; this one's not a moot point as the distinction is significant. On a personal note I find the term "Trumplicans" to be as valueless to any discussion as "libtards" or any other juvenile sobriquet; why anyone would feel any such term fosters effective communication is beyond me.

Now to the actual question of the day; I don't see any glaring threat to hunting, just a few caution signs, one that immediately springs up is her position on gun control. When the conversation moves towards "assault weapon" bans, magazine restrictions , etc I see her as another potential voice in the Biden choir that would attempt to put onerous taxes on firearms and ammunition to place burdens on sportsmen that do nothing to promote public safety.

Her stance on stripping the power of the NRA are also hypocritical given the vast reservoirs of funding her colleagues have no trouble accepting contributions from. If you feel there's too much money in political campaigns then be consistent and push for universal, not targeted reform.

I can see where some of her positions, if they were to become law could be detrimental, but not just to sportsmen; moving away from fossil fuels is likely to lead to higher prices and a push for a national $15 minimum wage will also add to the cost of doing business which of course is passed onto the consumer. As these impacts would be universal it's hard to feel singled out as a sportsman; we'd all be in the same boat.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
I'm over the moon right now," Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said in response to the news of Haaland's nomination. "I think the Biden climate appointments, they represent progress... Congresswoman Haaland would not just represent the first Native woman in charge of federal lands, but she brings a philosophy of both a commitment on climate and justice and the historic weight of having a Native woman, no less a progressive one, in charge of federal lands, is pretty enormous."

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
Read the writ, Alito and Thomas disagreed with the other justices decision that the case did not meet the legal hurdles to be heard, but they noted that there was nothing in merit to support the claims. They signed on unanimously with the other justices decision that the case had no merits.

Sounds like you are inaccurate Mike.

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20
I paid for my Social Security, as did you, Stix, and based upon the stock market return since I started contributing, we got ripped off. That money was used to fund government pet projects, while borrowing from the future. Medicare is funded by payroll taxes, etc, that would otherwise be paid in wages and benefits, and we still have to pay for it even after retirement. Your "public land" example is a weak straw man, because confusing land ownership by the government (which allows limited restricted use on some of it) is astronomically different than socialism and redistribution as an overriding economic policy. They are oceans apart. Environmental Justice and Climate Justice are so far from the concept of hunting on (some) public land that they don't belong in the same conversation.

From: Stix
19-Dec-20

Stix's Link
Here is one of the links to the Alito/Thomas issue I mentioned. It will help explain the issue.: https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/explaining-supreme-courts-ruling-denying-183648729.html

From: KSflatlander
19-Dec-20
Lou- I have to disagree. I’ve done plenty of research on environmental justice. Professionally, I do NEPA reviews which includes environmental justice and it has absolutely positively nothing to do with socialism or redistribution on natural resources. It simply means you can put a landfill in a poor rural country simply because you think residents can’t afford to fight back (just an example).

Environmental justice became federal policy by executive order. It could be removed with one. There a reason why no president (including Trump) has rescinded the order. It’s not figure out why.

You don’t like the DOI nominee and you have your reasons. I see your logic but environmental justice isn’t what you claim it is regarding federal policy.

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
Regardless of all the off topic stuff, where is either historical or even circumstantial proof in the assertions that the nominee would be bad for hunting?

Is it an assumption?

From: LUNG$HOT
19-Dec-20
Dutch, spoken like a true Dem! Hate it or love it, you are on a hunting site. Hunting is the one thing that “I assume” we all have in common on here. Unfortunately for us, this one thing has become highly political and the truth is that there’s one party who believes in true freedom, relaxed regulation, and MOSTLY supports access to our public lands and preserving our hunting heritage. Birds of a feather if you will. The other party MOSTLY supports the exact opposite. I’m sorry but I was raised in a democrat family and they are not the same party that our parents and our grandparents used to support. The last 6 years of my Grandfathers life he talked about how ridiculous, radical, lazy and soul sucking the Dems had become. He was a true Democrat. Member of the teamsters union etc... but, he was smart enough to see the destructive, bull$h!t path his once beloved party was on. They don’t like this country. Open your eyes.

And oh yeah, your not forced to read any thread on this site. If you don’t like a thread don’t click on it. Your job to have self control (another character trait most Democrats lack).

19-Dec-20
The smart ones see past the bumper sticker and shiny objects and fancy wording and reassurances it is all about fairness. People can't see the con... The complexities much deeper than could ever be discussed here when too many of the arguments here sound like "see it says fairness...how is fairness bad"???

From: Jaquomo
19-Dec-20

Jaquomo's Link
KS, you are confusing 25 year old official policy with modern progressive philosophy. Do some reading of progressive philosphy on the subject. The order has never been rescinded because it has never been used as a behavioral cudgel before. Once again, I'll be happy to start a "Told you so" thread.

Stix, I detailed the expected impacts based upon her leftist philosophies in posts above. Why don't you describe for us how she will be GOOD for hunting. Let's start there.

From: Stix
19-Dec-20
She's against the publuc sale or transfer of BLM lands to private interests of states. But I didn't make any accusations, or start this thread.

From: TD
20-Dec-20
Lou..... he knows you point. It's just more leftist double speak, depending on what the meaning of "is" is. Apparently common sense isn't very common, walks, quacks, etc..... Biden et al are at their hearts.... liars. Leftists, career politicians in general, will tell you what you want to hear. Biden and all around him have been doing so for decades, not like they are an unknown, like they have suddenly reinvented themselves. Was shutting down fracking....before he wasn't..... now what? Any clues as to what he will really do? I don't think he knows, maybe not even what day it is. Not that it matters. his global corporate/Chinese handlers will tell him what he wants to do.

Words mean nothing. She could give a hundred speeches on how awesome hunters and hunting was, completely meaningless. Actions. What has this lady signed onto in the past? Her actual voting record. What was her stance on wolves, delisting... guessing you guys will be holding your breath wondering her stance on grizzly delisting. Did she support national monument listing (antiquities act. see: loss of public hunting land and public input) States rights on wildlife and land management, etc. For me just the Green New Deal is enough. That's a deal breaker. Big time. But go ahead and try to argue she will be good for sportsmen and hunters. Maybe you also think Betto will be great for gun owners and the 2nd..... I mean, he hasn't done anything YET against us......

One of the things I liked about Trump. He'd tell you what he was thinking, like it or not. Not what he thought you wanted to hear, he really didn't care. Called the media what they are. Called out a good many of the swampy public sector who worked for themselves, entrench themselves and their careers, not for the good of the actual public, much less for the county. The enemies of the people. Hurt their lil' feewings he did.....Swamp was getting drained, on their way out..... and now Biden is just filling it right back up with the very people made it a swamp.

Cankles for SOS! I mean...... what has she actually done to hurt us.... well, lately.....

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20
Hmmm, look at who is endorsing her pick: HSUS, Defenders of Wildlife, Earth Justice, Center for Biological Diversity, Sierra Club. (Notice, I left BHA out this time...) What do they all have in common?

Stix, the public land transfer scare is another straw man. Trump was against it as well, but that didn't stop your Backcountry Hikers from vilifying him and his appointments.

Once again, I will advise all of you to watch Michael Moore's excellent documentary, Planet of the Humans if you care about the damage her public lands energy policy will do to wildlands amd wildlife under the guise of "saving the earth".

From: bowbender77
20-Dec-20
TD x 2. Well stated !

20-Dec-20

DiRTY MiKE 's embedded Photo
DiRTY MiKE 's embedded Photo
Commie bastards.

From: LINK
20-Dec-20
Dang it Jaq I’m a 1/16 Indian.

20-Dec-20
I fully expect all aspects of our country to take a turn for the worse. Not just hunting. With a moron (puppet) like Biden in place, the strings have been set into motion. And the morons who voted the puppet in? Well, ya can’t fix stupid.

I’m just waiting to see the police defunded. I fully expect to see a game of cowboys and liberals break out. It will be the Wild Wild West all over again

From: Bowbender
20-Dec-20
Here is PA we are living under the rule of a democrat Governor and his cronies. There's pain for quite a few of our 12 million residents under his reign. For those that elected and support Biden, there is pain coming. Real pain. I hope you feel every iota of it. You've earned it. 'Course those that suckle at the teat of goverment regulation will rejoice.

From: Stix
20-Dec-20
"Stix, the public land transfer scare is another straw man. Trump was against it as well, but that didn't stop your Backcountry Hikers from vilifying him and his appointments. "

Trump may have stated he was against the sale or transfer of public lands, yet his appointment to the BLM administrator had always advocated for it. Thankfully his nomination was pulled. I'd like to think that one of our BHA life members who is near the top in Trump circle of leadership lobbied for his dismissal.

From: nchunter
20-Dec-20
The Human Rights Campain - the largest LGBT civil rights organization is already pushing Biden for this: HRC is urging the Biden administration “to deny accreditation – or, at the very least, to facilitative the denial of accreditation – to Christian institutions, Christian colleges and universities, and, for that matter, any other religious institution or school that does not meet the demands of the LGBTQ orthodoxy,” he said. “This would mean abandoning biblical standards for teaching, hiring, admissions, housing, and student life. It would mean that Christian schools are no longer Christian. This concerns me more then hunting. Only people that believe in globalization, no family structure, no God and if it feels good do it, will have a place in the future USA. That is unless you are a Muslim,,, then you fall into protected status although your women are second class citizens. This is becoming one mixed up world. I loved it when the USA was basically made up of like minded people- proud of their country and their belief in God. Diversity is over rated.

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20
Pendley stated his past views on land transfers were "irrelevant" because the Administration was against wholesale transfers. But that didn't stop BHA and their sister, Sierra Club, from using it as fundraising and recruiting fodder.

"The administration’s critics could not point to any major sales of federal lands to outside entities in the 19 months since the Republican took office. Interior Department spokeswoman Molly Block said two of Pendley’s initial acts involved land acquisitions, not sales: the first piece of a planned 20.3-square-mile (52.6-square-kilometer) purchase near Montana’s Lower Blackfoot River and 17.4 square miles (45.1 square kilometers) along Oregon's John Day River.

Pendley's nomination wasn't "pulled". An Obama-appointed liberal judge ruled to remove him. Another hole in the narrative.

The day Haasland says her former positions are irrelevant on the Green New Deal, Climate Justice, 30 by 30, construction of massive solar and wind farms and thousands of miles of transmission lines on our precious public lands, is the day I will buy a life membership to BHA. Deal?

From: BOWNUT
20-Dec-20
Did you hear our new secretary of energy this morning? We have a abundance of public land that can be used for wind mills and solar panels. A president is only as good as the people he appoints. So far I'm not impressed.

From: RK
20-Dec-20
Bowhunt I think we are all in for four years of not being impressed.

20-Dec-20
That’s the lefts plan. Green energy all over public lands. But, we will still hear from the BHA how horrible fossil fuel is for public land. It’s their agenda.

From: Stix
20-Dec-20

Stix's embedded Photo
Stix's embedded Photo
I would rather see either a wind farm or solar farm, than oil well or fracking on targeted lands that have been deemed appropriate via engineering study and public comment.

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20
Stix, have you watched Michael Moore's documentary? If not, PLEASE do. Every lefty environmentalist should be required to watch it to understand the massive damage done to the environment and atmosphere by those things. The Casper WY landfill is now full of windmill blades that can't be recycled.

From: Stix
20-Dec-20
Will do

20-Dec-20
Not to mention the destruction of the views in the west...its perfect and windy off of Martha Vineyard the nest of rich liberals windmills here...Good lord no we can't ruin OUR views when we are sailing.... that is for peasant classes.

Dated a woman who was a Manager for windmills power and such once I got to know her better she explained EVERYONE in the know knows they use way more power to create and run and install than they create. So I said what are they good for She smiled and said...it makes people feel better... A classics Dem move if it doesn't work double and triple down on it

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-20

KSflatlander's Link
More misinformation.

“Researchers have carried out an environmental lifecycle assessment of 2-megawatt wind turbines mooted for a large wind farm in the U.S. Pacific Northwest. They conclude that in terms of cumulative energy payback, or the time to produce the amount of energy required of production and installation, a wind turbine with a working life of 20 years will offer a net benefit within five to eight months of being brought online.”

20-Dec-20
As I mentioned before, all liberal voting hunters should be thrown out of your camps. If you tolerate them, you are the problem.

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20
KSflatlander, have YOU watched Michael Moore's documentary? Please do.

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20
Two can play the cut and paste game!

"In two papers — published in the journals Environmental Research Letters and Joule — Harvard University researchers find that the transition to wind or solar power in the U.S. would require five to 20 times more land than previously thought, and, if such large-scale wind farms were built, would warm average surface temperatures over the continental U.S. by 0.24 degrees Celsius."

"For wind, we found that the average power density — meaning the rate of energy generation divided by the encompassing area of the wind plant — was up to 100 times lower than estimates by some leading energy experts,” said Miller, who is the first author of both papers. “Most of these estimates failed to consider the turbine-atmosphere interaction. For an isolated wind turbine, interactions are not important at all, but once the wind farms are more than five to 10 kilometers deep, these interactions have a major impact on the power density.”

This is fun!

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-20

KSflatlander's Link
I have not but I will this week. Have you fact checked it?

Have you watched Michael Moore’s Bowling for Columbine documentary? Do you believe everything in that movie about guns? There a pattern with Michael Moore that requires some healthy skepticism no matter what he produces.

From: Michael
20-Dec-20
Today’s turbines consume ruffly .1 percent of the power they generate over a year. To say they consume more then they produce is false.

The amount of energy that goes into building a wind tower is very high. I have seen studies where it’s bigger then coal or natural gas plants.

I build wind farms for a living. I know first hand the amount of energy it takes to erect a wind farm. I get a kick out of the anti oil crowd but there pro wind. We are wrapping up a project in Michigan as I type this. To ship out equipment and materials used to build this wind farm we are up to 408 semi loads.

I don’t want to see wind turbines on public land. However on private land I believe in private land owner rights whether I like the view or not.

From: Stix
20-Dec-20
I'm usually pretty repulsed by anything related to Michael Moore so it will be a struggle to watch it.

From: Michael
20-Dec-20
Yes Lou, wind turbines create turbulence in the winds for other turbines. That is why you do not see many string lined sites being developed anymore.

The one site I helped develop it took us a couple years to get things hashed out and dialed in for construction. We had to take into account wind turbulence, environmental and non participating land owners and there wind rights.

We would have chaos if the green new deal went through. Manufactures can not keep up now with what is being built. Experienced help is spread very thin as well. I see it in the manufacture site teams and there lack of knowledge. I find it funny that a contractor has to tell the supplier how to build there tower.

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-20

KSflatlander's Link
You have any source links?

For wind it is true that they are spread out. However, if you look at the land use within the wind farm they only convert 1-2% of the land for turbine pads and access roads. I don’t have a source link for this but I’ve done the calculations myself on over 50 wind projects in the U.S. Why do you think ranchers and farmers even entertain wind projects? They get paid and they lose little in the way of ranching and farming. Yes, that is not possible with solar. Which relates to your second point. Why do you think they spread the turbines out. To prevent air disturbance interaction to maximize efficiency. There are engineers and meteorologists that specialize in this. Every wind company pays close attention to turbine efficiencies.

Wind turbines causing global temperature increases vs fossil fuel estimates. 0.24...I’ll take it. If 0.24 is even correct. See link.

Oh that’s right...you all believe burning fossil fuels has no effect. I hate to break it to you but there will always be an effect when it comes to energy production. Renewables have less of an overall impact and help conserve our fossil fuel reserves. And they are getting more efficient and cheaper every year.

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-20
My observations are the same as Michael’s and he pretty much nailed it.

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Watch the film for yourself . But what I've learned in my long life is that whenever leftist media sources "fact check" and loudly shriek about something which contradicts the narrative, there is usually some serious "there" there.

I think one thing all hunters can agree on is that we don't want to see millions of acres of public land spoiled by massive wind farms, gigantic solar farms, and mazes of new transmission lines. Which is why I'm puzzled by hunters who vote for someone who promises to do exactly that..

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-20
They can’t just build projects anywhere they want. There is a siting process and environmental regulations they have to follow. There is also public involvement. Thank goodness Trump didn’t deregulate those laws, huh? There’s those dang Environmental regulations...until you need’em.

And Forbes is not a left wing source.

From: Michael
20-Dec-20
I wouldn’t say I am anti solar but I don’t think we are using our heads when it comes to solar. I see lots of solar farms in Minnesota. They consume on average 15 acres of land and only produce 5 megawatts of power.

Some of the new turbines we are building kick out over 4 megawatts per turbine. So you have a site road that is 16’ wide and a pedestal with a beauty ring consisting of a 45’ circle. That is a long ways from consuming 15 to 20 acres of land for a single turbine that can almost produce the same amount of energy.

From: RK
20-Dec-20
Any of you guys invested in wind or solar ?

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20
Forbes may not be left wing, overall, but David Vetter, the author of the linked story sure is when it comes to everything "green".

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-20
Ok. Don’t fact check any of Michael Moore’s “documentaries.” Eat it up. Don’t fact check stuff you base your opinion on. It still doesn’t change the facts and I hate to tell you but renewables aren’t going away in the long run. They are part of the all sources to our long term energy solutions.

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20
Sure they are. The question is how soon, and at what cost to our economy and the environment. That's where those on either side of the debate disagree.

But back to the original theme of my post. If every major anti-hunting organization and AOC are "over the moon!" with her appointment, then I guess she's an awesome choice! You lefties can put a poster of her on the ceiling over your beds and go to sleep knowing she's looking out for our best interests.

20-Dec-20
Flat brainer seem to think if he reads it it is true... written right there see...look it look all official...you know nothing but facts!!!!! govt agencies NEVER lie or fudge to promote their lane of traffic or agenda...billions wrapped up in these boondoggle projects....private interests and govt bloating on power ohhhh look words from heaven...look look it right there there is an official logo and everything.. Fools

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-20

KSflatlander's Link
That picture is from an article in Centers for American Experiment (Americanexperiment.org). And you complain about my source from right center. See link.

That photo says or doesn’t say much of anything since the source does not say anything about it. Is it from the U.S.? Did a tornado hit it? Was it abandoned and left to rot? Who knows?

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-20

KSflatlander's Link
Adventurewriter- so your ex-girlfriend is a better source? Your statement was laughable through just common sense. Plainly it’s wrong and misinformation.

I do know that wind turbines pay for themselves quickly compared to the life of the turbine. That’s an easily provable fact and it’s in the numbers.

Here is another credible source for you.

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-20
You will learn about that abandoned solar farm in the CA desert when/if you watch the film. But the point is, solar and wind farms on public land occupy exponentially more footprint than fracked gas and oil pads and displace exponentially more wildlife. On private land? Hell yes, go for it. I can't believe public land advocacy groups like Sierra Backcountry Hikers are all for this on "their" land they "own"

From: Matte
21-Dec-20
I love to hunt the Kansas prairie. I know have to see these ugly wind farms for miles and miles and miles of what was once wonderful countryside. How long is a turbine towers life? I know blades only average about 15 years. So hop many landfills will be filled if the towers lifespan is 45 years.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Dec-20

Grey Ghost's Link
I had to laugh at Lou using a Michael Moore film to argue his position.

BTW, there are several companies developing ways to recycle or re-purpose the fiberglass wind turbine blades. See link.

Matt

From: Old School
21-Dec-20
Those windmill “farms” across Oklahoma and Kansas are quite the eyesore. When we hog hunted in Oklahoma I was also surprised at how noisy they were. From what I heard from the locals, the equipment reaches the end of its usable life before you break even $ wise - without the govt subsidies it’s a losing proposition financially.

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
Regardless of what you “heard from the locals” that is completely and totally false. See links above.

From: Michael
21-Dec-20

Michael's embedded Photo
This coyote didn’t mind living around wind towers. I called it in a couple weeks after getting done building the wind farm.
Michael's embedded Photo
This coyote didn’t mind living around wind towers. I called it in a couple weeks after getting done building the wind farm.
The average ROI on a wind farm is 6%. I wouldn’t say investors are loosing money. Depending on what a wind farm has for a PPA will greatly determine there ROI.

Technology in today’s wind towers is night and day different from 20 years ago.

Blade lifespan has grown considerably over the years. Performing maintenance every other year goes a long ways in trying to get 30 years out of a set of blades. One of the hardest things on blades is lightning.

The tower itself can stand considerably longer then the nacelle, hub and blades. There is a lot of repower going on in our country at this time. Basically remove the rotor and nacelle. Install new updated units and there good to go.

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20
"Eight hundred seventy-four wind turbine blades have been entombed in the city of Casper’s regional landfill. The blades once powered Wyoming’s burgeoning fleet of wind turbines but have succumbed to a utility company’s effort to upgrade several wind farms across the state.

The blades, which make up about 10 percent of a wind turbine’s total material, are made of fiberglass, a tricky material that can’t be recycled or easily repurposed."

From: Stix
21-Dec-20
Forgot to mention, I make 2 trips/year to BC. Spring bear and Christmas.

Thanks BC-BHA chapter for leading the charge to protect BC's spring bear season last year from an attack from the anti's. You did what no other hunting group could do, like what happened in. Colorado in the 90's

From: RK
21-Dec-20
Stix. I did not realize the border was open now. When did they do that?

From: Stix
21-Dec-20
Today

From: Stix
21-Dec-20

From: Old School
21-Dec-20
Lou - Don’t bring actual facts into the equation - windmill parts are green, recyclable and the wind farms are such an aesthetically pleasing view - nature lovers will come across America to view them. Kind of like they will do with the wolves in Colorado.

From: RK
21-Dec-20
Stix. True to liberal lying form the border is NOT open

Just got off the phone with a client in Calgary

Please document your trip today while traveling to BC. Especially the Canadian customs part

LMAO. you Libs are ALL the same.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Dec-20
I thought the last official border opening date was extended to Dec. 21, 2020. Has there been an official new extension?

Matt

From: JSW
21-Dec-20
The single most important factor to consider when casting a vote for president or governor is what type of judge they will nominate. I challenge all of you to tell me, with a straight face, that Sotomayer or Kagan will rule in a way favorable to hunters. You have a much better chance from a Thomas or Scalia.

How many liberal judges have stopped legal hunting in a given state? How many conservative judges? Everything that is bad in this country comes from a liberal activist court. Expecting that that will change under Biden is idiocy.

From: JSW
21-Dec-20
"I would rather see either a wind farm or solar farm, than oil well or fracking on targeted lands that have been deemed appropriate via engineering study and public comment."

Stix, that has to be the saddest thing I've heard a hunter say all year.

We've been so conditioned to hate oil that we refuse to acknowledge the life changing benefits it has given us. In contrast, we've been so conditioned to believe that wind and solar are the answer that we refuse to acknowledge the failings of that industry.

One well sight can have as many as 64 gas wells on one location (probably more). A footprint about the same size as one wind generator. An entire wind farm is an environmental catastrophe.

Fossil fuel emissions are a problem but they are not the end of the world. Every second of every day that we live is made better by the cheap energy we get from fossil fuels. Look around, we live in the cleanest, safest, healthiest environment in the history of mankind. Why? Fossil fuels.

From: Glunt@work
21-Dec-20
The border isnt open but there are exceptions for family, work, refugees, etc.

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20
Maybe Stix qualifies as either a climate refugee or a political refugee?

From: Tate
21-Dec-20
You folks south of the border make me and the rest of the world LAUGH with your incendiary politics.

First, The border is closed for non-essential travel, but open if you or your spouse have family in Canada. I believe the person traveling here mentioned something about family.

Second, even with all the talk of gun confiscation etc. up here, you can still buy ammo at any local sporting goods store that sells it. I have never seen such fear that the shelves are wiped clean by mindless people who have OCD and panic. Up here, clear minds prevail.

Third, and I admit I don't have all the details, the backcountry hunters sent out emails to all their followers asking for testimony and email writing campaigns to stop the spring bear hunt initiatives in a couple of provinces. It was successful, as they were dropped in the various ministries due to the public response.That's the way the backcountry hunters work, boots on the ground, grassroots campaigns.

I cannot believe that some folks would let one conniving man as your president, be the catalyst for such vitriol, and aggressiveness towards brother sportsmen. You folks should be ashamed of yourselves.

I am going to post this on the other thread also, since people seem to be going back and forth. I am so glad my work transferred me up here, living in peace of mind, not fear and panic.

The world is laughing at you.

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20
You have Trudeau. Nothing more needs to be said.

From: Rupe
21-Dec-20
All you anti oil clowns need to give your vehicles away now or STHU and stop whining. Second only an ignoramus believes wind farms pay for themselves and are a net energy producer.

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
So much for facts and the truth lol.

There is another word for willful ignorance.

From: RK
21-Dec-20
Ks do you really think you are speaking the truth with facts?

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
About wind turbines paying for themselves and being net energy producers...absolutely.

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Go easy on KS. This is his new rig..

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
That’s actually pretty funny...touché Lou.

From: RK
21-Dec-20
Yep

From: bb
21-Dec-20
I ran into a couple of guys this year in Idaho, we got talking, during the conversation they told me they installed and serviced the wind turbines all over the West. I was curious about the break even, they said 20 something years. That's with routine maintenance. They also told me there was an astronomical amount of maintenance required. I would think after 20 + years, they would be ready for a new one.

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
Everyone knows someone who knows somebody who knows something...Lol.

Retraction: Between adventurewriter’s ex-girlfriend, Old School’s “locals”, Rupe, now bb’s wind turbine techs it’s settled. Wind turbines don’t pay for themselves and don’t have a net positive energy production. I was totally misled by science, engineering, accounting, mathematics, and investment returns.

Carry on

From: bb
21-Dec-20
"Everyone knows someone who knows somebody who knows something...Lol." That's usually the way it works either that or you read an article from someone who was told something by someone who did something......next you're going to pick u your toys and go home.

From: Rupe
21-Dec-20
“ There is another word for willful ignorance.”

Yeah it’s “Ksflatlander”

From: RK
21-Dec-20
Ks. Yep. All that and you still are Not right. Smug but still not right.

Good stuff though

From: Stoneman
21-Dec-20

Stoneman's embedded Photo
Stoneman's embedded Photo

From: djb
21-Dec-20
Here is an interesting article about how well Germany's is doing in their effert to cut their green house gase emmisions using wind and solar. High cost and poor results. https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/germanys-energiewende-20-years-later

From: djb
22-Dec-20
Here is another interesting read. https://www.americanexperiment.org/2020/07/bidens-new-energy-plan-is-terrible/

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20

KSflatlander's Link
bb- your last post explains a lot. What you describe is how people who believe in QAnon, 2020 widespread voter fraud, flat-earth, and 9/11 conspiracies get their “information.” What you describe is low information voters processes. That is willful ignorance.

And not one of you can dispute what I said with any credible information.

RK, Rupe, bb please post a credible source that shows that today’s wind turbines do not pay for themselves and are not net energy producers. No straw man arguments or opinion pieces from fake right wing news. A peered reviewed scientific article that states that I’m wrong. Plainly, back up your statements to the contrary.

From: woodguy65
22-Dec-20
Stop and think about the mountains and valleys that are ripped to shreds and the earth that has to be consumed in order to get the amounts or iron ore to produce steel for those windmills. The amount of gasoline and diesel to move the earth - to get the iron to the factories, the amount of coal it takes to reduce the iron-ore to steel. The diesel it takes to truck them all over the US. Laughable, but hey we are green!

From: Will
22-Dec-20
I avoided the other thread and this one to sustain lower blood pressure. Then I clicked. Sometimes, I am a dolt.

I do love though, when the FREEDOOOOOOM crowd says any and all regulation on capitalistic strategies are bad... But then says solar/wind/green energy production is horrible and shouldnt happen and any miss-step shows it's stoopud. There is a fix, think with foresight, plan, regulate while also encouraging new technology and deploy it responsibly.

But that requires regulation (BAD), new technology (BAD), independent oversight - aka, actual experts likely government funded (BAD - both oversight, and experts).

It's funny, we have a guy on the board with DECADES of work in the field, dealing with issues directly related to the OP's topic and later in the thread the off shoots of green energy etc, and the idea is that he's only purveying BS because it's not party line... Denial of expertise is a legit issue in the US today.

22-Dec-20
Any of the rumors coming out of WH “leaks” have any credibility to them, such as....

Trump would like Sydney Powell appointed SP to look at the election?

Trump was advised by Flynn and others to consider Marshall Law and told its not that big of a deal?

Trump was advised to consider federally confiscating the Dominion voting machines in states he lost?

If any of this is true, I hope you freedom loving small government guys reject it forcefully.

Will, I think you are on to something about rejection of science, whether that be COVID or energy etc. OTH, I am not in favor of government incentives favoring one industry over another. Investors should be forced to look at the long run, if the return is not there, tough.

Prove the cost of carbon emissions, tax the spillovers and then let all alternative sources of energy compete on an equal footing...no incentives to build, operate or tear down competing structures. The market is much better than government in figuring these things out IMO.

22-Dec-20
I think Will is confusing opposition with party line stances.

I do t know the return on wind farms or solar fields. I do know that they aren’t what the Democratic Party makes them out to be. And, I too believe we need progress and innovation in alternative power sources. I think everybody agrees with that.

What’s not agreeable is doing so at the cost of the tax payer. What’s not acceptable is partisan BS in order to handicap free markets in order to progress it. And, what’s not acceptable is spreading lies as the Green Party does, in order to brain wash people.

If wind farms were what some fought, there be no more fossil fuel energy. If solar was the same, it’d be the same. The problem most here and, anyone with an ounce of sense realizes, is fossil fuels are still the most affordable, efficient way to make power. And, it’s dumb to surrender our public access to an agenda contrary to best interest for all of America.

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-20
For me, the biggest grind with switching to renewables too quickly is the idea that the government is trying to force us to do it by "this" date, regardless of whether the technology is cost-effective or technologically efficient. You "must" retrofit your home or business, even though it will cost a ton of money. You absolutely have to absorb increased costs of energy, fuel, goods and services - yeah YOU, low income folks. You MUST give up cheap transportation and limit your driving distance (think about hunting - no more driving from NJ to CO to hunt elk in your little electric car, which may not be a bad thing. No more summer trips with the RV).

Never mind the horrific impact on our public lands, it HAS to be done and you all have to suffer because our religion - oops, I mean, "some" scientists who are grant funded to develop unproven models with predetermined outcomes by cherry-picking selective data have been used in the media narrative to scare half the country into believing that anthropogenesis is the ONLY cause of this particular warming cycle that graphs exactly like the past three nearly identical warming cycles, and if we all don't agree to play this unbelievably expensive and explosively disruptive game, civilization as we know it will end in 30 years.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-20
"What’s not agreeable is doing so at the cost of the tax payer."

I agree. So, can I assume you were also against the taxpayers subsidizing the oil and gas industry for decades, and continue to do so? The amount of subsidies we've paid for renewable energy pales in comparison based on annual averages over time.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
WV- I agree with a lot of your post. Anyone that tells you that renewables (as they are now) can replace fossil fuels is misinformed or lying. Without an efficient storage system, wind and solar will never replace fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are cheaper right now but we know the cost will only go up as supplies go down. Renewables are getting cheaper but they too are made of finite materials. However, renewables do help conserve traditional energy sources and are a part of the “all sources” solution along with energy efficiency initiatives.

I get that there are those that don’t think the government should incentivize one energy source over another. I believe it is acceptable to do so because we are on the clock. Energy is a part of national security and investment in alternative energy sources and ideas helps drive innovation. Yes, some ideas will crash and burn but there are some that are net positive and spawn other ideas. I think this is what Will was referring to. For National Security sack we better keep innovating and looking for ways to improve and conserve our energy sources. Societies that do will be in a better position than those that don’t.

We are all not still driving Model A’s but Henry Ford’s idea has led to competition and building upon his ideas. Cars a much cheaper and energy efficient than a Model A.

The alternative is to remain static and just keep relying of fossil fuels which we know without a doubt will get more expensive over time and eventually run out. Is there a long term energy solution out there...we don’t know unless we look for it and test ideas.

22-Dec-20
Grey ghost, let’s take things in context. Subsidies in the form of what? Tax breaks? I can deal with that on all fronts and In all sectors of energy development.

That’s not what I’m referring to. I’m referring to policy and regulations set up to limit fossil fuel procurement and development on government property to favor solar and wind. Let economics decide. Not politicians and their sponsors.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-20
WV,

I'm talking subsidies in all forms. If you think oil and gas hasn't benefitted from favorable regulations on government property, you haven't been paying attention over the years, or you just ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Matt

From: lawdy
22-Dec-20
I live in a village where over over one third is owned by the feds. Anyone who believes public lands are public is naive. Up here they use eminent domain and set the rules. He who controls the land basically owns it. The long term plan is the total takeover of Northern Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. As the manager told us, “you only have what is left of your lifetimes to fight us, we have plenty of time.” The only solution is taking their money away, but with the shysters we elect, fat chance. Karl Marx would be so proud at we have become. The only positive thing about fed lands up here is that they are incredibly lazy. Late afternoon you will never see a fed. Poachers know this, but it hurts those of us who don’t poach, but we can at least bicycle without getting pinched. Fight on gentlemen, we are screwed.

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-20
GG, I agree in principle. But billions of those tax dollars have been returned to states in the form of extraction royalties. How much is being returned to taxpayers from wind and solar royalties? Honest question, because I don't know.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
One way is that wind and solar bypass paying the state and directly pay landowners. Often times they pay fees to the local communities too. I’m not sure about payments to states or payments on public land.

22-Dec-20
GG, I think you are being typical and not paying attention to what I said.

22-Dec-20
Ryan,

I get that you are willing to allow government incentives because of "national security", but honestly, that excuse can be abused. Allowing for government incentives forces taxpays to pay for the bureaucracy that will be needed to manage those incentives.

A better way IMHO, is to use market incentives, i.e. zero capital gains taxes so when venture capitalists and others place "bets", when they hit home runs they keep it all. That will attract enough capital IMHO.

Of course, this will be attacked as a source of increased wealth disparity by the left, which is only a concern as we have moved away from meritocracy IMHO. Help those that can't help themselves, not anyone else. Tough Love!

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-20
I don't know either, Lou. But it's a good question, and worth researching. Perhaps KSFlatlander can shed some light, since that's the industry he's been in for 20 years, I believe.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
To be clear, I’m not part of the “renewables industry” per se. I have worked in that renewables sector for decades on the natural resources permitting side. I also help permit other energy sources usually on the transmission side. Yes, that includes fossil fuels.

From above: One way is that wind and solar bypass paying the state and directly pay landowners. Often times they pay fees to the local communities too. I’m not sure about payments to states or payments on public land.

Frank- you make a good point and I’m out of my depth on best way to incentivize innovation without picking winners or rewarding dead end ideas. We can chew that fat sometime over a beer. I would like to hear your take.

To be upfront, I’m also that someone that somebody knows so please please don’t simply rely on my word alone. Check it against credible sources.

From: Michael
22-Dec-20
Landowner payments can very depending on the land as well as other factors. I have seen landowners getting as high as $10,000 a year per tower.

The last project I did in Texas they payed landowners $4,500 per turbine and had a $1,500 increase every 5 years.

Depending on negotiations I have seen landowners get as much as $2,000 for just letting collection go through there land 5’ below the surface.

From: smurph
22-Dec-20
Ksflatlander, I live in Oregon. We have big wind farms in the eastern part of the state. I am hearing that the turbines are killing large numbers of raptors and bats. Do you any knowledge on this issue?

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
Yes, we do a lot of studies on interactions of birds and bats with wind turbines.

Feel free to PM me.

22-Dec-20
Ryan,

Please don't misunderstand me about believing my approach is the best way to incentivize innovation. Rather it was offered as it is consistent with my own personal belief that markets are the best approach for coordinating economic activity in general.

Recognizing nothing is perfect, government involvement should be minimized except in rare cases, such as market failure. My definition of market failure though would need something stronger than beer to convince you we don't need more regulation, LOL.

Where some of the more conservative folks would not have an affinity for my philosophy is sharing my belief that carbon based fuels do have spillovers, i.e. negative effects on the environment. (I grew up on the shores of Lake Erie remember? ) Spillovers, costs in this case, do allow for an entity to force payment for those spillovers. Typically government has been the only agency with power to do this, usually thru taxes...In this case a carbon tax, which you know is controversial.

I say this questioning my own beliefs as we have seen the miraculous "partnership", for lack of better terminology, between government and Big Business that resulted in a vaccine in record breaking time. So, not sure I can win any debate, but would consume enough Crown Royal to make it interesting.

From: TD
22-Dec-20
Just a touch of honesty is needed WRT alternative energy discussions. Any and all costs associated with it are ON TOP OF current conventional on demand systems costs, not instead of as a replacement or direct cost per watt. Alternative systems are not on demand. And are not necessary to the system like the conventional system is. The ONLY savings to apply are direct fuel costs and wear and tear to the conventional system, which at it's base, it's foundation, is a fixed cost of any system in the real world. Alternative is all added cost to that base.

With the cost of hardware, installation, infrastructure and the maintenance of all of that.... they are never going to be cost effective with the only offset of fuel and wear and tear. They are in use because of tax CREDITS as opposed to deductions and government MANDATES that force utilities to buy and use X amount of "renewable" energy from these systems.... an increasing amount every year.... but still must maintain full on demand systems for the real world when the sun goes down or the wind stops blowing. They are very much a "feel good" stopgap to when a real cost effective on demand replacement may come available.

It has been said above, that people resist them because they "don't like change" is demonstrably false. If you can show me such a system that is stand alone, on demand, more cost effective I will guarantee you it will take over in very short order, as pretty much ALL technology that show such advantages have done and will do in the future. Nothing on earth moves faster at such things than our system of freedoms and free enterprise. Nothing.

Right now it's not. It has some justified cost effective uses, such as off grid low volume personal use where conventional sources are not readily available. Even those normally require an evil fossil fuel generator for on demand back up. (A state of the art $5000 generator to back up a $20-30,000 system, go figure) If such fuels as hydrogen are developed for common use, they could be excellent for that type of production.... essentially a form of cost effective energy "storage" that doesn't currently exist.

One can make up many reasons (excuses?) for the use of "renewable" or "alternative" energy..... cost effective is not one. Not currently.

From: Rupe
22-Dec-20
All you clowns touting solar and wind should hand in your car keys, stop flying in planes, and stop using any energy other than solar or wind. Your constant virtue signaling is getting old. The truth is you won’t because you know it’s absurd.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
TD- tell that to companies that sign power purchase agreements with renewable energy companies that contract fixed energy costs for 30 years. Companies love the certainty with that for forecasting costs. Name one fossil fuel company that can do that.

From: TD
22-Dec-20
They do so because they have to. Mandates.

Interesting bringing up the forecast costs. Have any actually been accurate, much less under in their budgets for construction or maintenance? Or are overruns and, lets call it "optimism" more the rule?

I know our utility is mandated to purchase a certain percentage of "alternative" energy from producers. They had quite an aggressive campaign to get to that level or face fines. Private individuals could install systems and the company was required to purchase that power.... for a residence it essentially runs your meter in reverse, you don't get a check in the mail, but aren't charged for use if you produce more than you use. I have a 10KW system (largest that can be permitted on a residence, at least at the time. About 80 panels if I recall? Was over $20,000. But with tax credits, state and federal (public funded for essentially personal use) combined with the electric bill it covers ($700+ some peak months with fuel price adjustments), it made economic sense for us. I think we pay around $30 now as a base fee? We've produced more than we ever use since it was fired up. Couple more years of payments and it's paid for. Worked out well for us. But I'm not about to be hypocritcal and say it's some great success for everyone and for the solar companies it's bought a bunch of boats and put kids though college for sure. Ain't America great?

For the utility..... not so much. They are going under water with the program, no longer offering the buy back. You can install solar etc. but only supplement your actual use in real time. i.e. it can halt your meter at best, but not sell and bank the power, run it backwards. They were trying to sell the company a couple years ago..... but all buyers bailed out when courts ruled the potential new owners could not void the contracts (30 years I believe) with the utility. We are under contract. WE personally have benefited. The company..... yeah, not so much. The rest of their customers not so much. But it's playing out like this because it was a state mandate. Not because someone in the state said it would be cost effective, save anyone any money (don't forget the state and fed taxpayer money essentially funding a good deal of it) Or that the mandate was based on anything but WAGs.

And also take into account this is in an area it probably makes the greatest sense in the nation. We have to import ALL of our fuel. Electric rates are the highest in the nation last I looked, so it makes more economic sense where energy "necessarily skyrockets". Nearest to the equator so sun angles are best for all year round, and the weather.... well, we get a lot of sun in most places.

Also have had solar hot water since the 80s. That's a great system, relatively inexpensive and pays for itself quickly. I'm not an enemy of alternative energy. But honesty is required as to it's value and implementation, not unicorn farts, dreams and feelings. All "green" is not good, nor makes real economic sense. Some is, some isn't. Just as all hunting, fishing, gardening may or may not make economic sense, but in some cases it can and does. You'll get far more bang for your buck with a good job of sealing and insulating your home, etc and while not glamorous or as big a virtue signal as a Prius (Tesla?) is likely more cost effective and "green" dollar for dollar.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
TD- one of the projects I worked on signed a 30 year power agreement with Anheuser-Busch. There was no mandate that a private company had to purchase renewables. You’re confusing renewable portfolio standards (RPS) with states. Some were mandated and some were just a goal. All of the 25 year RPSs in U.S. were accomplished in half the time as was stated as a mandatory.

22-Dec-20
I have figured out you can't reason with Donkey they love the sound of their own braying too much. We already have the miracle energy source Nuclear....ohhhh wait that for bombs ohhhh bombs bad baddddd baaaad

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
I’m still waiting on that source to prove me wrong. I think it’s called “put up or shut up.”

Hey, looky there we agree on nuclear...being a part of the energy solution that is.

Sincerely

the talking Donkey.

From: TD
22-Dec-20

TD's Link
It's state by state. Others I don't know. Hawaii was a mandate, not a recommendation or wish with a side order of hope. 30% by 2020 if I recall. They were at some 28% due to the huge number of solar systems installed. Word I heard is they got "close enough" and let em slide on mandates. The big mandate is 100% renewable by 2045. They are saying they will meet that goal. cool.

But... they can't really tell you how. Because, well, they don't know. The adaptable, economically feasible solution doesn't currently exist. They are banking on..... something, someone, somehow.... coming up with the magic technology to make it happen. Someday. Soon maybe. They may be right.... American ingenuity and tech.... something could happen and may not even involve solar or wind. Or not. But hey, those brave folks are willing to take that chance with..... well, with us.

Those contracts to purchase power are the reason the MECO sale blew up. New buyers (mainland utility companies) could not void the contracts. Bailed out as the numbers were then a hot mess. Writing on the wall was clear, they were gonna lose their azz.... see ya. So we are stuck with it once again.....

They also promised a mass transit rail system, construction of the 20 mile project started in2012 at a projected cost of 5 billion and was due to open in 2019. Awesome. As is, I don't believe a single mile is open, they are 10 billion over budget (set a record I hear for most over budget of any public project in the US) and are proposing to open in.... 2033. Runs on electric too I think......

Gotta love the Socialist Republic of Hawaii......

22-Dec-20
the talking Donkey.....ahhhh no i said braying...and what is that other word for donkey just can't think of it three letters think is starts with and "a" then a double letter just can't think of it

From: Sitting Bull
23-Dec-20
Not sure if you all know that Fiberglass resin is a biproduct of the petroleum industry. No oil, no resin, no resin, no light weight wind turbine blades. Just saying...

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-20
So is the hydraulic oil used in turbine generators. So is the insulation around all the wiring...on and on. Why do people say stuff like this? Who ever said that wind and solar would replace plastic products? This is the misinformation stuff that spreads.

100% renewable by 2050 does not mean that there are no fossil fuel energy sources or products. It means the renewables have the capacity to supply enough electrons to power what we need. However, we must have a traditional power source to counter act renewables intermittency.

From: jingalls
23-Dec-20
Have you guys noticed on here that the leftists never post their names on their profile. It’s like they even lie on it?

23-Dec-20
Brayyass I see ya skipped right past Nuclear...

From: kakiatkids
23-Dec-20
We keep bitching about the left and the right. It's all of them! Look at the "Covid relief bill"...over 5,500 pages of spending that took three hours to print out the day it was voted on. No one saw any of it before then....no amendments...no votes...no nothing. The day it was voted on you had 5,500 pages to read. Please don't lower my IQ by blaming one party...its both of them. If you support the ruling classes...did you get anything besides $600. Do anyone of you think they represented us by sending billions to other nations while American people suffer? I love the ethics and moralities each side profess to have while totally ignoring the needs of America...America first hasn't ever meant more and received less from either party. Its horrifying global interests exerts this much control over the purse of Americans. What is wrong with the omnipotent globalist ruling classes Americans support. Rant over...

From: krieger
24-Dec-20
Ol Tate the Canadian swinging in for a drive-by, cracks me up. Hey Tate, if you ever do get out in the wild make sure you have your sidearm handy for a bear attack. Oh wait, you can't , because " calmer heads have prevailed". Someone decided that you don't really need one. Someone living in a fantasy land of concrete and steel, ( mostly dug out of mines, pillaging the earth, hauled by those nasty fossil fuel burning trucks and trains) getting consistent electricity from a ( gasp!! ) coal fired plant....someone controlling your every move, for the " greater good " of course...

go ahead and use that bear spray,

I will be laughing at you.

From: Grey Ghost
24-Dec-20
"...over 5,500 pages of spending that took three hours to print out the day it was voted on. No one saw any of it before then....no amendments...no votes...no nothing. The day it was voted on you had 5,500 pages to read. Please don't lower my IQ by blaming one party."

If you actually think that's what happened, your IQ can't get much lower.

Matt

24-Dec-20
Let me go on record to say I'm not a fan of either party now the republications wave the flag more and hit the conservative bullet points but the majority are swamp rats

From: Jaquomo
24-Dec-20
"..over 5,500 pages of spending that took three hours to print out the day it was voted on. No one saw any of it before then....no amendments...no votes...no nothing. The day it was voted on you had 5,500 pages to read."

That is almost word for word how Tulsi Gabbard described the process when explaining why she voted against it.

From: Grey Ghost
24-Dec-20
Then Mrs. Gabbard admitted to dereliction of her duties as a legislator.

As with most bills, this one was first introduced almost 2 years ago and has been revised and added to ever since. The final version was a collection of many smaller bills that our legislators have been working on for months. Every Congress member has a small army of hired staff to keep track of the progress of each piece of legislation that reaches the House and Senate floors.

To think that one of the largest bills of our nation's history was printed up the night before, and voted on without any knowledge of what's in it, shows complete ignorance of our legislative process.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
24-Dec-20
Guess it's good that Tulsi wasn't elected president then! Instead, we got a guy who may not have read a bill in the past 40 years..

From: Grey Ghost
24-Dec-20
Lou,

Agreed. Along those same lines, how many sleepless nights do you think Trump spent reading every word of this bill, or any bill that he's signed? I'm betting he spent more time on Twitter.

Look, I'm not happy with the out of control Federal deficit spending, either. But, if you think Trump did anything to change that, you're sadly mistaken. Now, he's advocating to add to a bloated bill, without offering any real solutions to where that money should come from. Targeting foreign aid is nothing but a political ploy. They could eliminate all foreign aid, and it wouldn't scratch the surface of what he's proposing to add to the relief package on this bill.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
24-Dec-20
I agree that Trump was certainly not a deficit hawk. What he was, was "Trump".

From: RK
24-Dec-20
What's Trump adding to the Bill?

From: Grey Ghost
24-Dec-20
RK.

He wants to more than triple the amount that goes to people who qualify for social subsidies.

Matt

From: Tonybear61
24-Dec-20
Wind and solar will never give us more than 2-3% of our energy needs.

In the meantime lose your hunting land to vast solar farms, and sight pollution with those stupid wind towers.

Don't forget who co-authored the New Green deal and who passed the Wild Lands Act.

The proof will be when we move forward into 2021 and beyond.

From: KSflatlander
24-Dec-20

KSflatlander's Link
Wind and solar are already over 8%?

From: WoodMoose
25-Dec-20
"It’s amazing how volatile politics have become"

USA political history is full of "volatile politics",,, it isn't anything new

From: RK
25-Dec-20
GG. he said he wants to leave the numbers the same BUT Increase the actual amount that people receive to 2k rather than 600.

From: Grey Ghost
25-Dec-20
RK,

There's currently $166 billion in the bill for "direct checks" to qualifying recipients, also known as welfare. That's about $600 per person. Trump wants $2000 per person. So, the direct checks budget would have to climb to $553 billion. That's $387 billion more that he'll need to pull from some other budgets in the bill, or just add that amount to the overall bill.

Is that clear as mud?

Matt

From: Jackaroo
25-Dec-20
People think that bills are still written by congressmen like they were taught in civics. It hasn’t been that way for a long long time. A congressman’s primary job now it to fundraise for their party, themselves and to get re-elected. Part of that is meeting with the lobbyist that donate to their campaigns. K street in Washington DC is where all the lobbyist have offices . The lobbyist propose legislation And once the congressmen agree to back it the lobbyist provide the written legislation. My niece was one of 15 or so lobbyist responsible for a few billion in pork. She works for an organization that lobbies to get funding for governments in Asia on behalf of women’s rights. So when Pelosi said they have to pass it to see what’s in it she was telling the truth. They typically never see it in its final form until all the separate pieces are added together to form the Bill.

From: Jackaroo
25-Dec-20
The process is all about pork spending in DC it’s not a political problem. That’s why it continues no matter you elect in either party. When you have that much money up for grabs it becomes about who is most effective at getting it for you. And you are represented by lobbies not your congressman.

From: RK
25-Dec-20
Yep clear as what he said. Cancel some of the othe distributions and put that towards a higher payment to citizens. No increase in total amount. But if that does not make sense then stay with what you got. Means more to you to be right than it does to me

Merry Christmas !!

25-Dec-20
Nuclear is the answer instead of Wind and solar....but its a GRRREAT way to line the pockets of political buddies

From: Rupe
25-Dec-20
Rk, you nailed it.

From: Rocky D
26-Dec-20
Man has this thread really wandered from Joq’s original post . These issues are nothing more than smoking mirrors. It’s like the $2K per individual has become the debate but the pork is the real issue pumped in at the last minute and not giving enough time to read the bill. Why are we funding the Kennedy Center, Pakistani women’s and etc all in the name of COVID relief. This discussion reminds of the old saying of “ don’t piss on my leg and tell me that it is raining.” Look at the history of the left and look at her history and you know where we are heading. Do not try to convince me that the left’s earth friendly platform is going to better support hunters!

26-Dec-20
Rocky D for the win.

From: tobywon
26-Dec-20
I’ll just say it’s sad to see so many hard working Americans that struggle to make a living to support their families and pay their taxes year in and year out only to see so much go to waste by people that have an agenda and don’t give a crap.

From: lawdy
26-Dec-20
We have a biomass plant up here, actually several. If they weren’t heavily subsidized they would fold. Because chips don’t pay for even the trucking, most are coming from Canada. Wagner/Bayroot has stopped sending chips and most softwood logging is on hold as softwood prices have plummeted. I was going to cut on my land, but will hold off. We are surrounded by windmills but they constantly break down. They were put in by a Spanish outfit with $169,000,000.00 of taxpayer money during Obama’s reign. It would have been better to outfit every home in Coos County with solar panels. Those windmills are a joke and eagle killers up here. It gets cold on these mountains and mechanical things break.

From: Jaquomo
26-Dec-20
Amazon rainforests are being cleared for biomass. And the greenies think that's perfectly fine because, you know, it isn't burning evil fossil fuels.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-20
RK,

FYI, the bill they are currently working on to increase the $600 checks to $2000 is in addition to the previously passed $900 billion relief bill. It adds over $400 billion to the overall number. So, yeah, I'll stick with what I said earlier.

Matt

From: bigdog21
29-Dec-20
Not worried about hunting. there are bigger things to worry about.. like Bidens new world order UN agenda 2030 and agenda 21. this is real. to many on board not to worry Busch, Obama, clintons, sorals,and other big hitters.

From: Orion
29-Dec-20
Curious on all you green energy people can any of you tell me a more efficient and cleaner way to heat your house then natural gas???

From: Jaquomo
29-Dec-20
Blankets. Lots and lots of blankets.

29-Dec-20
They could indeed tell you how to do it Orion. However, like the rest of us, they can’t afford to do it. Nor, would they be willing to do it if they could afford it. Because as individual producers, it wouldn’t take long before maintenance costs and inconsistencies eat away that warm and fluffy feeling of going all green.

29-Dec-20
I don’t read anyone posting on this site that we need to go all green.

OTH, my campus has built two new, energy efficient buildings that just opened two years ago. They use 20 percent less energy per volume to heat than our “conventional” structures and have a 20 year max payback even adjusting for time values of cash flow. Life expectancy is 100 years. Decisions like that I support.

When we built the home we live in now we did double wall construction and other reasonable efforts. Our home is very efficient and also super quiet. I think these are approaches that should be looked at from a cost/benefit analysis and undertake the ones that will provide positive net benefits.

29-Dec-20
Yes, I support it too. I don’t think the question was building energy efficient buildings. I can do that now. I thought the question was converting your building over to green energy sources. Efficiently and economically. I’ll be waiting on the science of that. Like I have been for a long time.

From: Jaquomo
29-Dec-20
Frank, nobody posting on this thread is advocating it, but Haasland, the subject of the thread, supports AOCs proposal to "get rid of farting cows and airplanes, upgrade or replace every building in America, replace every combustible-engine vehicle and provide 'economic security' for people “unwilling to work”" within 10 years.

Meaning if their dreams come true, hunting will be dramatically affected. Think Tesla pickups with ebikes in the back and charging stations at every trailhead. The good news is that nobody has to work to earn money, so we'll have lots of time to hunt! :-)

From: Rocky D
29-Dec-20
If 90% of a particular group that is brought together by a particular activity is supporting one political group and I was part of the 10% that differed I would spend more time trying to figure out why I was in the minority instead trying to convince everyone that I am the one seeing with clarity. Trump, COVID, and $600 vs 2K has nothing do with Biden’s pick and whether she is going to be good for hunters. If you are playing the long game with the left’s caring for the environment as being ultimately in hunters best interest then I would question that logic. The left has repeatedly sided against hunters so why would they change now?

29-Dec-20
Exactly.

From: KSflatlander
29-Dec-20
The faulty assumption is that all Americans fit in 2 boxes...left or right. Trump and McConnell right now with the stimulus is a prime example. Is Trump on left and McConnell on the right?

Too many think all people are only binary in their politics which is not true and will never be true. It’s just not that simple.

29-Dec-20
In reality, Life isn’t that complex as a whole. It’s people that make it that way. Right versus wrong. Moral versus immorality. It’s all defined for us. It is so simple it’s comical that it’s even debated. But, we gotta do that because people muddy the water with personal interpretations of life’s obvious absolutes.

From: Rocky D
29-Dec-20
KS, it’s either one or the other. This doesn’t even require critical thinking!

From: KSflatlander
29-Dec-20
If it’s one or the other is Trump a leftist now?

From: Rupe
29-Dec-20
There are indeed 2 sides. The looney tune nut jobs on the Left and Constitutionalist and perfectly sane people on the Right!!!

From: Rocky D
29-Dec-20
KS, don’t get caught up in the drama.

From: KSflatlander
29-Dec-20
It doesn’t get any more looney tune nut job than QAnon.

Rocky- I noticed you didn’t answer the question.

From: Jaquomo
29-Dec-20
I know there are at least 72 million racists, ugly folks, and dregs of society in this country who voted for Trump. So let's all unite and come together for the good of the country.

Right.

From: Rocky D
30-Dec-20
KS, no Trump is not a leftist! Hmm, that was petty with no point. You need to look at the body of work. No single action makes you one or the other.

30-Dec-20
I’m sorry if this was covered already.

Remember what the swamp creatures did to Trumps Appointment. Retired Seal team six officer, Montana representative Ryan Zinke?

The same thing the corrupt POS did to anyone that came to town that wasn’t part of the oligarchy.

He resigned because he couldn’t afford to defend himself against all the environmental lobbyists behind furniture gate. And oh he was in a real estate deal in Montana.

All while Beijing Biden and his whole family are making millions selling out the US.

Most of the greaseballs in Washington have similar deals all over the world.

And Zinke has to resign because his office desk was too expensive and how dare he be in real estate in his home town in Montana

He should have gotten into Ukrainian or Chinese real estate to get along with the sleaze factory eco terrorists.

From: Junior
30-Dec-20
The spending bill with 1% foreign aid happens every year! This funds the government 2021. The covid bill was attached to the spending bill. Trump played everyone on this, and twisted to look bad. He talks all this BS with every bill, then signs the thing anyway?//???? I am a Conservative Democrat of old school that voted for Trump twice, and I can tell you, I always keep an open mind with politics. Red or Blue, when they are fighting each other and causing chaos, you best get out the lube, as somebody is getting screwed! I don't trust none of them!

30-Dec-20
Trump was trying to get re-elected.

Some of you people amaze me. It’s as if you forget how this democracy works. It was one man. Who openly talked of his ideas and goals. Which were geared to make American lives better. Against the whole corrupt bunch.

Yes he voted for bills he shouldn’t have. And openly said as much. He did so because old and young alike feel as if the government is their babysitter. People medicate to lifespans well beyond sustainable, then get angry at any president if their government provided insurance takes a hit. When in reality, that hit has come from a bill sponsored by our legislative branch. President aside. Same with the young. They want everything free. To dumb to realize it’s just political banter. Yet vote against those who point that out.

No president has ever been elected on the promise of raised taxes. No president has ever been elected with such a small campaign effort. No president has ever been elected that was shown and known to take foreign money for personal gain. No president has ever been elected campaigning against the 2nd amendment. Until now.

From: Rocky D
30-Dec-20
Junior, if you vote for the Democratic Party then you cannot be a conservative Democrat! Conservative is not part of the Democratic Platform, go read the insanely over generalized document and tell me exactly where conservatives are represented. I am not telling you who you should vote for but do not be mistaken about whether there is no place for a conservative Democrat in the the current Democratic Party other than your vote. As far as the OP’s original statement why are we discussing the President when evaluating Biden’s selection. Stay on target, aim small miss small, and don’t get caught up in the smoking mirrors.

From: Junior
30-Dec-20
You got to think a little deeper! If I can vote out a far left D than I have more control than a R that can't vote D at all! Also don't ever think that some of the R's aren't waist deep in the swamp! Look to the Senate for the more conservative D's, such as Joe Manchin. I do plan to switch to independent eventually, just not sure it even matters after this election. So many lies nobody knows what to believe. I do honestly think, the only way to beat the D's is from the inside out.

From: Junior
30-Dec-20

From: Tate
30-Dec-20
" Stay on target, aim small miss small, and don’t get caught up in the smoking mirrors. "

Yeah, let's save these comments for the BHA thread where they belong! LOL!

I am really surprised that there are people easily duped by someone like Trump who spoke the words people wanted to hear, but lied through his teeth.

Proof: He said in a address to reporters that Covid will be just like the flu and gone in a couple weeks, all while he admitted knowing that he was briefed by aides that the virus was severe. His response: " I didn't want to cause a panic". Now 300,000+ deaths later... I wish I would have known then that that it was so serious. Let me be the judge if I should panic.

The smoke and mirrors Trump used showed that you were duped, and you were too indifferent to even know it. SAD....

Also, with Trump's insistence on the $2000(us)/person payment. He has put conservative members of your congress in a tough spot, especially the 2 in a runoff election in Georgia. They have to go against their conservative principles in order to get elected. In doing so, he may have just tilted the special election towards the liberal party. Trump is selling out the conservative party out of spite because the leaders are unwilling to continue his charade over the election. It seems he is willing to take anyone down with him that does not do or say what he wants. It's called BEING DUPED!

From: Jaquomo
30-Dec-20
"Let me be the judge if I should panic." Seriously, Tate, you are such a sheep that you need a politician to tell you how to live your life? That is sad and pathetic, but typical of a weak-minded liberal.

Fauci said back then that COVID was no big deal, Proof: he said, "this is not a major threat to the United States, and is not something people should be worried about". He also said, "there's no reason to be walking around with a mask".

So Tate, your guy is a big fat liar too. Trump was trying to be positive and reassure people, instead of the typical liberal response of running around with their hair on fire screaming, "We're all going to die if you don't do what I say, right NOW!" (See: climate change..)

Forgot to mention that back in the spring when Trump promised we would have a vaccine "by the end of the year", and then rejiggered regulations to make that happen, all you hateful, lying liberals scoffed and ridiculed him. Now we have three vaccines, which under Barry Soetero's regulations would have taken 3-5 years to bring to market.

From: BC
30-Dec-20
Tate, keep the blame for this thing where it belongs...China.

30-Dec-20
“ Trump was trying to be positive and reassure people...”

Lou, someone has to say this...if you believe that, you are not too bright or maybe not honest. And the rest of us are not dumb enough to believe it. He said it simply not to tank the economy with his eye on the election.

I voted for the man so quit with calling everyone who doesn’t genuflect a liberal. We went nuts when Obama told us we could keep our doctors, this is no different. Quit making excuses, use the same standards. Integrity demands it!

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-20
The Liberals' version of producing meat for consumption in lieu of hunting will be entitled: 'The Soylent Green New Deal'.

From: Rocky D
30-Dec-20
Tate, why are you talking about Trump? The discussion is on Biden’s selection not on what Trump did or did not do!

Junior, when posed complex issues it is best to use some critical criteria to help unclutter the process. For the party that I support with my vote I use things like the 1st and 2nd amendment, liberty, defense, and the economy. This ensures that I do not get confounded and make a decision based on subordinate issues vs primary or better yet more overarching issues. If a Democrat best supports me then I would be the first to support them with my vote for president.

If anyone is basing the vote on an individual vs a party then at best they are confused and don’t understand the current political state of affairs.

Tate, I am sorry read your post and you are clearly confused. You jump COVID to COVID relief. Again, what does this have to with Biden’s selection? Remember, stay on target!

Would one of you people come with one valid comment on how Biden’s selection is going to directly support hunters. Please excuse me when I don’t accept your reach around by spewing out vomiting about global warming, earth friendly, or green be deal. Talk about sheep and being duped, all I here are CNN talking points.

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-20

TrapperKayak's embedded Photo
TrapperKayak's embedded Photo
Just in time for the new 'Regime'.

30-Dec-20
I’m not the smartest guy in the world. But, an ounce of non objective thought would put not tanking the economy in the same boat as trying to prevent panic. Am I wrong?

Tate, on the BHA thread, you openly said you didn’t trust the death count of Covid reported deaths in this country. Yet, took another sucker punch at a guy that isn’t even your countries leader. By acting as if they are credible for this argument. Which is it butter cup? It can’t be both ways.

Get it, liberal minded folks don’t like brash in your face personalities. It hurts their feelings. I also get it that a lot of Canadians don’t like Trump. His policies saw to that. I do understand he rubs people wrong. M

But, truth be known, I don’t like Justin either. I also don’t care if America first policy levels the playing fields of markets that gives American labor a fighting chance against the most absurd trade policy ever devised. And, some sources are stating the Covid counts are 40% inflated in their own states. That is coming from liberal land Minnesota.

It is what it is. Other wise pretty intelligent men incapable of an in your face guy telling it like it is. SMH.

From: 70lbdraw
30-Dec-20
"I am really surprised that there are people easily duped by someone like Trump who spoke the words people wanted to hear, but lied through his teeth."

Is it as surprising to you that people accused Trump of trying to convince them to inject Clorox, or drink fish tank cleaner, in an effort to cure COVID? Seems that your team was the one that tried to push that tripe. Yeah, You libs sure are savvy when it comes to sniffin' out the truth! Lol!

30-Dec-20
There is no telling it like it is, you are delusional. You always have an excuse why when your guy gets caught with a non-truth it is different. Try telling that to St. Peter when the time arrives.

It is clear that for many of you it is about your god, and not conservative ideology. And I don’t have a problem with that, just embrace the truth. Trump and everyone else is just a messenger to be used to advance the cause of freedom, nothing more.

From: Jaquomo
30-Dec-20
"There is no telling it like it is, you are delusional. You always have an excuse why when your guy gets caught with a non-truth it is different. Try telling that to St. Peter when the time arrives."

Going to be a lot of liberals and liberal politicians in hell too.

Frank, I do believe Trump was trying to calm the waters to prevent panic, for many reasons, including the economy. Even Fauci was telling him it wasn't a big deal. The Left and their media obviously wanted to instill panic to assert control while praying for the economy to tank before the election. Most politicians panicked, shut down the country (except for liquor and pot - because liberals love their weed..). That's a flashing billboard to anyone capable of objective reasoning.

The Left won the idea battle and look what happened. The economy has been destroyed, life savings and businesses permanently lost, people still died by the hundreds of thousands despite all the draconian measures. But hey, Biden was elected so it was all worth it.

There is a sickness in this country that's far worse than COVID. And unfortunately it will be around long after COVID is under control.

30-Dec-20
Lou,

Sorry, but guys our age have to fight ‘old man syndrome’. Trump is motivated by what’s in it for him, period. Any other National figure who had the marital experiences he has, the bankruptcies etc. you guys would be raking over the coals.

What we need to be concerned about is the lack of rational thought that now allows for the full embrace of every radical conspiracy theory. History will show what a sham Trump’s proclamation of a stolen election was really about... a complete narcissist unable to cope with losing. And all of you who bought into it I hope will one day realize you embraced it because deep down you know you were taken by a con artist.

Conservative philosophy remains supreme, in spite of a narcissist who is willing to sell off everything he said he believed in.

30-Dec-20
So Frank, We are to believe corrupt cities like Detroit, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Las Vegas. Baltimore, Chicago Cities that are in complete shambles from theft, corruption and dirty politicians for the last 50 years. Chose Election Day 2020 to finally follow the law and keep their outlaws running the city from ballot harvest, disposing of ballots, re counting the same ballots. Entering dead people’s ballots, blocking election workers from monitoring the ballots with threats of violence if they kept insisting on watching the count. Etc.

That’s a pretty tough one. They chose one day. Election Day to not be corrupt. Unless you think those cities are not corrupt.

From: Rocky D
30-Dec-20
“ There is a sickness in this country that's far worse than COVID. And unfortunately it will be around long after COVID is under control.”

X2 Joq

30-Dec-20
I agree with Rocky D, and Jaquomo.

From: TD
30-Dec-20
Good grief. Some either have terminal TDS, are intentionally lying (for your own good of course) or just flippin' nuts.

WRT covid, while Trump was shutting down International travel and assembling a covid response team..... while at the very same time, every one of those you support, including the brain dead sellout traitor who you just elected, was calling him racist and xenophobic for his actions. Leftists from Pelosi on one coast to Cuomo on the other were telling people to ignore the virus and literally.... word for word.... go downtown and party. Ignore Trump and his travel shutdowns. Actions? International shutdowns are legally about the only shutdowns available to the Executive under federal law. And Trump is the fascist dictator? Think about that. Think about the reality and what is the real lie. Folks wouldn't know a fascist dictator if they had one's rope around their neck. It's just a factually ignorant derogatory term to them.... like Nazi. Or you're ugly. Clueless as to it's real meaning. And blind as to the real actions of those they are supporting.

These same politicians screamed they had no ventilators.... Trump assembled private industries and hands them ventilators by the truckload, which they never used. "We have no hospital beds!" Here's a few navy medical ships..... which they never used. Fast tracked vaccines, which these same people claimed was impossible. huh. News "released" just a couple days AFTER the election... well, look at this, we have 3 vaccines.... how did that happen? Crickets. Why? Completely dishonest bastages is why. Evil.

Trump DIDN'T put covid patients in rest homes, increasing the death toll by the thousands. Dem run states with not only the strictest lock downs as well as the highest infection rates.... they have the highest DEATH rates as well. Then writing books and hailed by the left as heroes for how they handled things so awesomely..... yes.... literal insanity. What else would explain such cognitive dissidence, denial of reality. Only other option is just simply evil. You know.... that uncomfortable right and wrong thing again....

He handled it EXACTLY as he should have. His team made recommendations with the best info available (which the best "science" by the top experts changed week to week. so much for "following the science"...) and he followed them. States manage themselves in emergencies. Need some help, ask and you shall receive. But legally, constitutionally..... each state determines their own actions and responses. Feds cannot (and should not) order such actions. He did all that he had available..... and more, removing costly and time eating regulations to fast track needed medical innovation.

But covid is all Trumps fault..... Yup, you people are flippin' nuts.

From: Jackaroo
30-Dec-20
Some people are mind readers. They can read people minds over the internet or tv and ascribe positions to them based on their mind reading. They can even do it face to face. It’s a super power in their mind.

30-Dec-20
Jackaroo,

You talking about me or Lou? I am willing to bet you are only critical of the one you disagree with, and that’s exactly what I am pointing out... the vast hypocrisy with you trumplicans.

TD... I don’t even bother reading your posts any more...too lengthy and always say the same...trump is great.

Altitude, none of the crap you list has been proven. I wii take the word of the AG, our security specialists, scores of judges from both sides and the SC over another whiny trump conspiracy. Seriously, in school if a guy whined as much as he does for being picked on, he would have been given something to really whine about.

Get over it, your god lost. Start fixating on how we minimize the damage and turn it around in 2022 and beyond. Please don’t become a bunch of whiners like trump, too many of you I have held respect for as tough guys...up until now.

From: Jackaroo
30-Dec-20
Habitat. I was addressing to anyone that applies their own filters to what someone says. Thanks for reading my mind.

From: TD
30-Dec-20
Rocky is right..... all this covid stuff has nothing to do with this nominee, this Junior member of the AOC Squad. But it's hard to sit quietly while people knowingly lie and justify it because Orange Man Bad. My bad Rocky.

Nothing I can even imagine is positive about this leftist/socialist WRT hunters and hunting, much less for the country. Although there may be a bunch more bowhunters after she and her party takes away your guns.... if they let you hunt on fed land after it's all national parks. The intentional blindness to these political agendas is breathtaking. Truly amazing the knots and pretzels folks will twist into to avoid "being judgemental". Well, unless you're orange.....

It was stated how most folks are politically "neutral" and that may be somewhat true.... for the general public. But it may come as a shock, politicians.... are political. THEY have ideologies. Agendas. Nature of the beast, like it or not. Some are clearly driven by them. These people are the ones who are running for office. You have..... a vote. Pick one, yes, pick a side. Neutral is rarely a given option. Neutral and neutered share a base origin.

Quite interesting.... some here claim to hate the "black and white" ideological politics.... and those politicians. Yet hate one of the only non-politicians to ever be elected to high office. As well as one of the least ideological WRT party, which made him hated by both. He just wanted to get things done, to hell with the feel good BS. Loved personal freedom and rights. And the country. America First. Americans First. But there is one group, one party, America First is bad. The American flag is bad, patriotism is bad.

Globalism is good. Ruled by consensus of global interests is good. Global Corporate rule is good. No more American Companies, now to them there are only American Consumers whose money (and military power) they want and need. Literally our highest offices openly bought and paid for (and slept with even) by Global interests (yeah, the Chinese) and those Globalist corporations/interests like Google, Facebook, Apple, NBA, Academia, etc. stand quietly by as those entities that own them literally commit/support genocide and slavery on massive scales. Crickets from Corporate Media, Academia and Tech. And anyone standing up to them and calling them out (like Trump) will have the full force of their power against them in opposition.

Only in this party of Globalist worship is there no black and white, right or wrong. Just what we tell you to think.... what makes you feel good and not have to face up to what makes you feel bad. Anything which gives them and keeps them in money and power. Whatever that thing may currently be. Right and wrong? Seriously? You'd need morals and ethics for that.....

From: TD
30-Dec-20
Frank.... you seem confused about many things. Mostly how I really couldn't care less what you read and even less what you might have garnered from it. I left hall monitors to their demons long, long ago...

I write for myself.... often just for therapy.... talking out loud so to speak (write?) try to make sense of the blind or insane.... and sometimes because I believe lies as well as those who promote them (for your own good of course) need to be challenged. Like a high fast ball, just can't lay off em. If they can't defend the stuff they push with any kind of reality or facts.... then are offended anyone challenged them at all in their safe space.... maybe commenting on a public internet forum is likely a bit too much for their high strung selves......

30-Dec-20
Frank, would you care to elaborate on anything Trump purposely lied about?

The WSJ stated today that Trump is killing the Republican Party. I say good if that’s the case. It needs restructured. To get back to its roots.

I’ll say it again. Most of Trumps supporters don’t align with him because he is a Republican. They do so because he is America first. To the bone. And, makes zero apology about it.

I don’t know why anyone would be so arrogant to suggest his supporters liken Trump to God status. It’s absurd, ignorant, and misguided. Not to mention a direct route to assigning the problem lies with the accuser.

He tells it like he sees it. If that chaps your sensitive backside, sobeit. It really isn’t a debate that many feel that way. The only thing in question is why? I’ll leave that to the individual. Because whatever caused it, I’m certain it’s a personal problem. Because it’s simply impossible to declare anything except that Trump’s motivation was making America Great Again.

From: akbow
30-Dec-20
I've watched this thread as an observer and I have a question for both sides. I think both sides could at least agree that the root problems is career politicians and I think that was a big part of the allure (to some obviously--at least initially). Could someone (Right or Left) run on the premise of setting term limits in Congress? If so, could they get it done? In one term or by the second term? I tend to think most people (right or left) are sick of career politicians.

30-Dec-20
Ahhhh Habitat for dumb thoughts and simple thinking can only follow along it if fits on a bumper sticker and concise points and logic that is for suckers..orange man bad that is all I need to know "TD... I don’t even bother reading your posts any more...too lengthy and always say the same...trump is great."

30-Dec-20
LOL

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-20

TrapperKayak's embedded Photo
TrapperKayak's embedded Photo
We are right here, this is Liberal NOW. Hard to believe some of you are on board with this insanity. Glad you are the minority, and yes, you did lose the election, and no Bidn admi,. is legitimate. Its criminal insanty, and right in time with this movie's fictional year. You will not endure though. Good prevails in,the end. Anarchy,loses.

From: Glunt@work
30-Dec-20

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-20

TrapperKayak's embedded Photo
TrapperKayak's embedded Photo

30-Dec-20
Jackaroo,

It was a question followed by an ‘if’. Thanks for not understanding English.

From: Jaquomo
30-Dec-20
Term limits will never happen at the federal level. Voluntary, yes. But power-hungry pols on both sides will NEVER vote to fire themselves from the most awesome job anyone could have. Do nothing, reap amazing financial benefits and perks for themselves and their families, fly home for weekends on government jets. Who would want to end that after working so hard to fool so many people to finally achieve that goal?

30-Dec-20
“ Frank, would you care to elaborate on anything Trump purposely lied about?”

Do you have a short memory? We just discussed his lying about the severity of COVID. It doesn’t matter what is pointed out Justin, you will make up another justification in your mind. Lou keeps using a common argument for justifying poor ethical behavior which is someone else displayed worse behavior. It doesn’t hold water. And a typical response from you will be to use a Bible passage “proving” your justification is on solid Christian ground. It is not. Here’s the difference between us, I don’t expect any human to be without faults, so I can readily admit my own and all of his. Many of you cannot find fault with trump without qualifying it.

If we can ever focus on the ideology and how to pitch it inclusively, we will make progress. If we continue with ‘Orange man god’ we all lose.

And I did mean small g god, not good.

30-Dec-20
Lou x2. No one in office is going to vote that they only get a certain number of terms.

Term limits were built into our democracy anyways. We exercise that right every single time we cast a vote for the House.

From: akbow
30-Dec-20
What if a potential candidate that hasn't been part of the "establishment" at DC were to run on that platform--similar to Trump or even a Ross Perot-type. It will never come from a Senator/Governor/Rep for the reasons mentioned above plus more (dirty secrets, voting record, etc...) It seems that would be one way to consolidate both sides since I think both sides agree on that point at least--long term/career politicians are the root of the problem.

30-Dec-20
No, I don’t have a short memory. Just a totally different approach to defining a liar. And, I’m pretty sure if it didn’t involve Trump, that probably wouldn’t be the case

From: Bowbender
30-Dec-20
"I tend to think most people (right or left) are sick of career politicians."

And your wrong. Incumbents average like 90% re-election. If the electorate was truly sick of career politicians they would vote the bastards out.

From: akbow
30-Dec-20
Incumbents are still likely running against another career politician though. It's the devil you know versus the unknown devil.

From: akbow
30-Dec-20
Incumbents are still likely running against another career politician though. It's the devil you know versus the unknown devil.

From: akbow
30-Dec-20
Incumbents are still likely running against another career politician though. It's the devil you know versus the unknown devil.

From: Tate
30-Dec-20
This thread is a perfect example of the effects of Trump leadership. A lot of bashing, kicking, and screaming at folks with an alternative opinion. I form my opinion from what I have seen.

Lying to you American citizen about the severity of Covid, rationalized by "I don't want to cause a panic".

Chaotic administration, Firing and hiring folks so quickly that they don't get a chance to get confirmed by your senate. Most cabinet secretaries have (acting) in their title. Important department head coming and going with no stability...defense dept, attorney general, secretary of state, head of cia, there are many more, but me not being akin to your govt, I may leave many out.

Bible photo op at church after using tear gas to disburse protestors. Tries to look sacred but say things like "Jon Bon Jovi kisses my ass when he sees me". Stormy Daniels hush money. He can grab girls by the Pussy because when your famous they let you do it.

One of his supporters who he pardoned has a tattoo of Nixon on his back. Want to do a pre-emptive pardon on himself and his family.

Holds up your covid relief bill for really distressed American's, but then signs it after unemployment benefits expire. There was no explanation for this one.

Consistently over inflating the facts on just about every subject.

It's true, populists say what the masses want to hear to gain their approval, but then look out for the madness they cause. Similar to Castro, Lenin, Ho Chi Min, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini.

He needs to go away before he does any more damage to your country.

From: Michael
30-Dec-20
Trumped lying about the severity of COVID is laughable.

The easy way to tell if Biden is lying is his mouth is moving.

You want to be anti Trump knock yourself out. I just wouldn’t want to die on the Trump lies hill when all politicians lie including Sleepy Joe.

30-Dec-20
Please feel free to Come to this country, get a podium, and voice your opinion.

From: Treeline
30-Dec-20
Major problem we have in front of all of us right now.

Does your, my, or anyone else’s vote mean a damn thing?

Apparently not.

Especially with the voting machines programmed, built and paid for to be corrupted...

All driven by the Globalist Agenda!

Now, back to Lou’s original premise... If any of you think this libtard hack will do anything whatsoever to improve access for hunting, you are sadly mistaken. The left has been very clear, they want your guns, they want retributions, they want to control you. Anyone that thinks that they should be able to do anything remotely resembling self reliance is the enemy. Bow to the all powerful Government or PERISH!

From: TD
30-Dec-20

TD's embedded Photo
TD's embedded Photo
Seriously? Hitler, et al? Credibility meter on the floor. You are literally part of the problem as you have no connection with reality much less any accurate history. Just parroting what you are told to believe.... again, with no facts. Look at actions, reality.

Hitler, Lenin, etc. Who is it again who wants guns outlawed? (first step, take away firearms, personal defense) Free speech censored? Control of the media? (second step) Higher taxes? A foreign policy that creates and literally funds wars and terrorist groups like ISIS and Iran? (4 major middle east peace deals on table right now) Who is funding/supporting organized rioting and looting across the country? Literal book burning/banning and tearing down historical monuments, attacking organized religion? Yep, Hitler, Lenin all over, to the letter..... damn those facts.....

Trump reformed the justice/criminal system for the first time in DECADES where as those just those two people "elected" are personally responsible for more POC being imprisoned than anyone alive. That's a fact. But obviously, if your feelings dictate, facts can be ignored.... Go Beijing Biden and Heels up Harris! Orange Man Bad.....

Trump lead the deregulation on private business and individuals along with encouragement of personal freedoms and responsibility. Reduced reliance on government support in nearly all ways, not increased it. His actions have been the polar opposite of Lenin, Hitler, etc. but he did speak mean and hurt snowflakes around the globe.... (winks eye.....) so that makes him like, a bad man.... you know, Hitler or something..... good grief....

If you will look with open eyes.... this is the American Left doing and supporting all this. And all those actions were the exact actions taken by Hitler and those you mentioned to take power from their opposition, take power from the citizens. And as history shows.... the left ate it up, the power and control, and the violent mobs and thoughtless masses brought those people to power. Millions of souls died at their hands. Millions.

You just literally accused Trump of the exact actions and motives of his leftist opposition, he has done none of that. But leftist like to toss around terms they think are just derogatory and have no historical knowledge of, much less any proof or action of. That's what they want you to think because if they say it enough the weak minded start to believe the lie. It's as dishonest as it gets. Total loss of intellectual integrity. But, you know.... Orange Man Bad.... and dammit we do what we are told.....

Was that too many words? Yeah likely..... I know, I know, feelings matter more than any facts or reality.....

From: Tate
30-Dec-20
You are correct, my political rant was not appropriate and China is the main culprit for the severity of the effect of this virus do to the lack of accurate initial reporting. I apologize.

The American political machine is far to complicated and shall I say corrupt for the injection of my opinions as an outsider. I will no longer contribute my opinions on this thread. Happy New Year fellow bowhunters.

From: TrapperKayak
30-Dec-20
'Lying to you American citizen about the severity of Covid, rationalized by "I don't want to cause a panic".' Good timing tate. I was just about to comment on your statement here, as well as your other assessments. They are without a doubt laughable. The truth is this: Pelosi is one one the first to mimimize the impact potential of covid by saying 'come visit Chinatown', etc. This is but one minor issue in a sea of corruption that led to the escape of this disease world wide to begin with. The left and their Biden puppet have their noses so far up the globalists' collective butts that IMO led to this entire Preventable farce of a pandemic, in the name of ripping the American Way right from the hands of good honest hardworking solid family Americans living Constitutional freedoms for 234 years, only to see its fortune all be 'given' to illegal immigrants, lawless thugs, rioters, moral-less punks, and lazy gluttons and slobs too stupid to figure out how to live independantlg of Government and its control disguised as handouts. Liars and cheats are trying to rape us all of our,freedoma and give it to the lemmings they have brainwashed into leadi,g off their cliffs, and taking the Constitutional America with them. God knows the good in this country, and most of it resides right of center. The far left...and globalists, are trying to kill you off. Covid is just one attempt at such a scheme. They will stop at nothing, mark my words. They have,some,of you brainwashed, its obvious by your posts, and we all know who you are. You won't last. Well...........Bye!

From: KSflatlander
30-Dec-20
Well...bye. You can say that again. That’s the last two words Trump will hear when he leaves the 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

31-Dec-20
“No, I don’t have a short memory. Just a totally different approach to defining a liar. “

Yes, you have proven this statement accurate. Your different approach is everyone else lies, trump does not or if he did it is for the greater good. Some day you will find out you don’t get to define what is an untruth.

And Justin, the electorate did exercise term limits on Trump, they said, “well, bye.”. Everyone says they want term limits until their god is limited.

Stop and think, the majority cast a vote for the other terrible choice. Trump is mainly responsible for that, he could have prevented it. The good news IMHO is this means the majority of Americans still expect decency and respectful behavior from those who want to lead. We can build on that if we can quit whining about what the other side gets away with. But, I think most here would rather whine and see more gun restrictions to be able to say “see, I told you”.

31-Dec-20

Habitat for Wildlife's Link
Hope more like him run for office. He gets it!

From: Jackaroo
31-Dec-20
More mind reading.

31-Dec-20
No, more opinion like everyone else here, but you don’t point that out. Hmm... more bias?

From: Rocky D
31-Dec-20
“I will no longer contribute my opinions on this thread. Happy New Year fellow bowhunters.”

Tate, you do not have to go silent. I actually appreciate the view from the North but wished it be more objective. You basically sound like us. We need you for clarity since you should not be as biased as us in your perspective. We are the problem not you.

Our biggest problem in that our politics are polarized and the left uses racism, sexism, and abortion which are extremely emotionally changed issues. Conservatives view America as a success in progress. Whereas, the left views that we must repent and pay for the sins of racism and sexism. I.E. social justice.

Many conservatives feel that the left’s position is a means to gain and maintain power and control. The left may view this as a necessity whereas the end justifies the means.

Clearly, there is doubt about the voting process being fair. Trump getting the record number of votes and Biden winning everywhere that he needed. This with his lack of campaigning and and now his low popularity ratings. On the other hand Trump was number one so it makes you think that something is fishy. This with many states using COVID to go against the constitution and do as they pleased in regards mail in voting. These are all issues but their is a greater concern for America.

There is a divide where you have Americans divided on what direction that we go into the future as a country. Conservatives mostly want to proceed with a lot of what got us to be what is seen as the leader of the world. The left sees America as flawed and in need of improvement. This improvement as perceived by the right will ultimately change or at least restrict how we have been living. So these individual issues have little to do with the overall issue but everything to do with where people align their vote. So the real issue is how we proceed into the future. Trump has simply become the cudgel or wedge that is symbolic of the divide! Many who vote for him do not like him but many like me RESPECT him for what he does and how he does it.

This is just my opinion and I may have missed the mark and I do not think that I speak for most conservatives. It is just my opinion.

It is also my opinion that it would not be good for you or Bowsite to remain silent. Many times an outsider brings a different point view that is not only needed but is appreciated.

From: Z Barebow
31-Dec-20

Z Barebow's embedded Photo
Z Barebow's embedded Photo

Z Barebow's Link
Since this thread is all over the board, I will chase another squirrel.

(Let me preface my comments. Although I support most of President Trump's policies, I am not a fan of his behavior)

Voters have short attention spans and selective amnesia. I remember when Trump was elected in 2016, the pundits/experts were telling us the economy will never recover with the zest of previous economic recoveries. It was just a function of the "new" economy. (Read "World Economy"). In the weeks after the 2016 election, the stock market went on a good run leading up to inauguration. The Obama defenders claimed it was the recovery finally kicking in. (And taking credit). Almost no credence was given to the psychological affect the 2016 election had on businesses and investors. As someone who owns a small business, lives in a state with significant revenue from fossil fuels, and watches his retirement funds, the economic fresh air was palpable.. The 8 year wet blanket was being lifted.

As I witness the preparation for President elect Biden (Agency/ Cabinet Appointments ), I have very little doubt we are entering at least 4 years Obama 2.0. Greater government regulation and bureaucracy. The current cadre of elected and appointed officials have zero connection to the small businesses or folks who have to balance a bank accounts or have any idea of revenue/expenses which impact most working folks. If someone lists previous work experience as "Community Organizer", this should automatically disqualify that person from any govt position (local, county, state, federal) which has fiscal decision making within the job description. President Trump has been a great disappointment when it comes to fiscal responsibility. But it appears as the Democratic new mantra is to support institutional fiscal irresponsibility. (Check out Link). I do not fear for myself. I have economic fear for my kids, grandkids, and our country.

Love or hate President Trump, my retirement plan has NEVER experienced a 2 year return like this. (Which includes a once in a century pandemic) . I have been contributing to a retirement for 35+ years. I am sure the Biden supporters will be blaming Trump and the pandemic when the economy returns to Obama era "recovery" rates.

Back to thread title, Biden's nominee for Dept of Interior sucks!

From: bowbender77
07-Jan-21
Biden's nominee foe Dept of Interior SUCKS X2 !!!

From: sundowner
07-Jan-21
I wonder why some politically oriented threads are not poofed, while OTHERS ARE NOT..??

From: Blue Buck
07-Jan-21
Rocky D I agree with your opinion 100%. Very well stated.

From: Ziek
07-Jan-21
So no one is going to comment on the events of yesterday? No outrage? Every Trump supporter is partly responsible for that debacle. I still don't understand why the Capital police didn't start clogging up the entries with bodies. I did particularly like the poster boy for Trumpublicans with his bison hat on.

My take on the difference between Trumpublicans and Democrats is that Trumpublicans believe, without ANY proof, what a confirmed pathological liar says, and any number of ridiculous conspiracy theories that fit their narrative of an alternate reality. They defend him and his party above even the country. They are NOT Patriots in any way. Trump would never be satisfied until you place a crown on his head. Real Republicans were smarter than that, but FINALLY even most current Republican senators can no longer deny that Tump is for Trump first last and always, above everything else, including the Country. Unfortunately, the party was taken over by nut-jobs led by a deranged narcissist. And the result is they turned it ALL over to the Democrats. Thank you Trump!

07-Jan-21
The narrative is crazy.

Libs burn down cities for a year and it's called peaceful protest. Trumpers riot and it is the worst day in american history.

Media bias is alive and well.

From: KSflatlander
07-Jan-21
I feel like my vote for Biden is fully vindicated considering the insurrection by pro-Trump supporters.

Trump is a National disgrace and international embarrassment.

From: SIP
07-Jan-21
Every Trump supporter is partly to blame???....

Then you as a hunter are partly to blame for poaching? Got it...

From: Supernaut
07-Jan-21
KSflatlander, I'd bet no one besides you cares that you feel like your vote for Biden is "fully vindicated".

I figured the "Hunters?" that support the party that would love to take away our second amendment rights would be here waving their banners today and I was right. Just remember to reap what you sow.

From: Ziek
07-Jan-21
It was clear to anybody that was paying attention before he even won the nomination that he was unqualified, unsuitable, incompetent, and corrupt, with only his own fortune as his motive. That became increasingly evident over his four-year term. You might be forgiven for 2016, but by 2020 supporting him meant you supported party over country. Or rather, Trump over everything. Many claimed fear of Socialism. Better Democratic Socialism (which is a hell of a stretch to begin with) than a Dictatorship.

From: SIP
07-Jan-21

SIP's embedded Photo
SIP's embedded Photo

From: Glunt@work
07-Jan-21
Lol

From: 3rd Degree
07-Jan-21
Zeik, Your Bison hat wearing fool is a verified Antifa antagonist. There were more than a few there, and it has been verified. Some media has verified that, and stated that there was more than a few there. I am not trying to say that this was only them, and no Trump supporters took part in it. I am sure quite a few did.

The left's hypocrisy is astounding. I couldn't believe the double talk I heard on what limited mainstream media I listened to yesterday. The left spent millions of taxpayers money on Russia gate, for quite a long time, years. All based on 2 individual informants statements. But now there are hundreds of signed affidavits from people claiming fraud. And we are told too bad, you lose, shut up and go home. Hypocrisy. We are not children, and being told "because I said so" is not ok. By the way, why is anyone questioning this election an evil conspiracy theorist? But they went on for years on much less? And the investigation shows that the Russiagate informers were paid by the DNC. Nothing to see here folks. Go home and shut up.

If Biden won fair and square, fine. Well not really, but I, and most others will deal with it.

It's not even about Trump, it's about stealing this country. And then they say "Trump" did this. No, they did it. Shut up and go home, we don't answer to you.

The problem here is that there are too many unanswered questions. If he won, be transparent. Shove it in our faces, gloat, whatever. But when you outright lie, and omit infomation to fit a narrative, it will make people angry. If there is no integrity of our election process, this country is lost. Don't ever bother voting again, it doesn't matter. It has all been decided ahead of time, just like the WWE.

Even if there were no antifa provocateur's there, maybe this was a shot over the bow. This is our country, everybody citizens country. It's about time our representatives start fearing the people. I for one am tired of fearing my government. They are elected to represent us. Not to rule over us.

And then they, and the BS media says this is an attack on the constitution? Maybe they look at it as defending the constitution. After all, state and the Fed's have performed quite a few unconstitutional acts this year alone.

Our government has done this all over the world, to many countries. Creating insurrection, so they can topple an existing government, and put the government that they want in place. And now they did it on our own turf.

Maybe I am a little jaded living under King Cuomo. I should have probably ask him to approve this post, as he wants to dictate just about every aspect of lives here in NY.

From: 3rd Degree
07-Jan-21
How is it possible for anyone to compare achievements of Biden and Trump, and come to the conclusion that Biden is better? I just don't get it. But then again, I am deplorable.

From: Jaquomo
07-Jan-21
Where was the outrage when thousands of Biden supporters burned and looted cities, destroyed businesses, assaulted people who wouldn't pledge allegiance to them, and overran and occupied the center of Seattle, including a police precinct headquarters? Should conservatives now riot because an unarmed white woman was shot and killed by police yesterday, for the heinous crime of being inside a public building I, myself, have been inside? The hypocrisy is hilarious.

By Ziek's logic, he and KSflatlander are partly to blame for all that.

I supported Trump's policies, and because the only other choice was a senile, lying, plagiarizing, incompetent, corrupt swamp dweller who has done absolutely nothing in 47 years in Congress, and who is bought and paid for by foreign interests, there was only one choice.

From: midwest
07-Jan-21
"I feel like my vote for Biden is fully vindicated considering the insurrection by pro-Trump supporters."

That's hilarious. DC would be burned to the ground by now had Trump won.

07-Jan-21
Yep, it’s getting old being called all the things liberals have called Trump supporters. Yet, they wander why yesterday happened? You keep kicking a horse and you are going to get an unfavorable result. And, as it continues, so will the intensity of these occurrences.

It’s funny to me that people like the liberals in this thread, talk of inciting violence by Trump. Totally arrogant in the reality that each of those who broke into the capital were totally responsible of their own decisions and actors. It’s typical though. Because anybody who’d support Trump is deplorable and dumb anyway. Right?

I got news for you guys. The best thing to do is call it what it is. Because it was people like you who enraged that mob. You talk of things as if you are above it all. Yet, are so ignorant of reality you can’t see the vitriol your kind has created over the last 4 years. All the broad brush name calling, insinuations of ignorance, the biased bs the msm put out. Then, to have these obvious discretions in our elections receive zero attention, we are lucky they didn’t chase down every senator and congress person and kill them on the spot.

It’s funny to me we get senators from both sides saying we need to look into the rule changes that made fraud a possibility. Yet, they wanted to do it all after Trump was gone. Sounds like they have a problem with something. But, it isn’t half of America being degraded for the last 4 years. Or, a possibility of a fraudulent election.

Anyways, it’s probably best for all of America that we find some common ground. But, as always, it’s going to have to be on your terms. Or, those that disagree with you will be racists, homophobic, ignorant pony faced blah, blah, blah.

From: KSflatlander
07-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
“The horned man in question is none other than 32-year-old Jake Angeli, a familiar face at pro-Trump rallies and a purported QAnon conspiracy theorist sometimes referred to as the “QAnon Shaman,” according to the Arizona Republic’s website.“

If there is a riot, I don’t care who it is they should be arrested and prosecuted. Antifa, proud boys, I really don’t care. Storm the Capitol...that’s next level and the prison sentences will reflect it.

However, those of you that consume Newsmax and Oann with your breakfast and eat dinner with Hannity every night assume because I’m a liberal that I’m a socialist, Antifa sympathizer, communist because right wing fake news and Trump feed you that crap. That’s your problem for listening to that crap.

I’m for the 2nd Amendment, think blue lives matter, and have did an honest days work for honest days pay all my life. But I believe my own eyes and ears and am loyal to no man. I’m loyal to the Constitution and the institutions/branches of government it creates.

I stand by my vote and my words in the previous post.

From: RK
07-Jan-21
Awesome comments KS

NOT TRUE but awesome. Golf clap and kudos.

You could not possibly have Those opinions and voted the way you did.

I'm sure you are a good dude. Just misguided.

From: NoWiser
07-Jan-21
The hypocrisy in this thread is mind blowing.

From: NoWiser
07-Jan-21
The hypocrisy in this thread is mind blowing.

From: Michael
07-Jan-21
According to De Blasio protests don’t have to be peaceful. At least that is what he told us back last summer.

The left has no leg to stand on when it comes to criticism of yesterday. They covered up the rioting that took place all summer.

From: KSflatlander
07-Jan-21
RK- thank you for making my point so clear with a poignant example.

From: Ziek
07-Jan-21
You guys do understand that this wasn't a simple riot? They attacked the Senate and House of Representatives while they were in session! Yes, it was a pretty pitiful attempt at a coup, (about what you would expect from morons) but that's what it was, orchestrated by the President! If you can't wrap your mind around that, I give up trying to sway any of you. You don't even seem to get that the Trumpublican Party is gone. I'd bet that one of the first things we'll see this year is our 51st state. Trump screwed ALL of you, but you're willing to keep bending over. Evidently it's true, you just can't fix stupid.

From: trublucolo
07-Jan-21
A lot of people didn't support Trump until he was the only thing left between us and a Hillary pResidency, and I would do it again because Joe Biden is no better than hillary. For a lot of us, Trump was just a catalyst that exposed the left for the bootheels they are starting with the "Russian Collusion", the sham impeachment, the lefts turning a blind eye to the rioting, burning, and looting in the left controlled metropolis's, the media bias finally being fronted out for what it is. I could keep going but most people here are well aware of what the dems stand for at heart - absolutely nothing but power and control. With that said, this issue is far from settled. Explain how the only contests Biden won were the ones he absolutely had to have. How is it that there were just enough votes out there to flip red districts to blue for Biden, but stayed red down ticket in most other races. Ossoff in Georgia, give me a break.... he was a telephone operator for the rep who thought Guam was going to flip over because of troop numbers. The other idiot Warnock is a "Reverend" Jeremiah Wright disciple with absolutely nothing to show as to why he will accomplish anything other than a "present" vote for his string masters. Amazing how those races were so close, but just enough beyond the numbers that would trigger a recount and closer scrutiny??? We're expected to believe there was no election rigging because democrats said there was no election rigging, after years of democrats renouncing mail in voting because democrats felt they could be rigged. C'mon man.....

From: trublucolo
07-Jan-21
The stupid ones here are the ones who think all Trump supporters eat from the same plate.

From: bigdog21
07-Jan-21
So what is your thoughs on Binden one wourld Gov. agend 2030, and de-arming america. child slave labor.. ect. " "

From: bigdog21
07-Jan-21
need to watch on youtube paul harvey ( we were warned freedom to chains)

From: Stix
07-Jan-21
As I view it, the folks storming capital and the ones violently rioting through the summer are of the same mold. When you protest, there had to be a goal or set of goals you're trying to achieve. The rioters in the summer walked through the streets carrying BLM signs and set businesses on fire, looted businesses, caused mayhem to life and property. What was the goal?

The capital rioters carrying Trump signs broke into the capital building, entered congressional offices, took selfies, ransacked, stole laptops, interrupted a constitutionally legal process that was upheld by federal courts with Trump appointed justices. What was the goal?

Same bat time, same bat channel.

From: BC
07-Jan-21
The attack on democracy began on inaugural day 2017 when Trump was sworn in. That attack came from the left. Antfia mobs burnt cars, smashed windows and attacked Trump voters on the streets of DC. The media declared “not my president “.

The next four years were a constant organized attack on a duly elected president with one purpose, overthrow Trump.

We suffered through the Russia hoax, the impeachment bs and all summer we watch cities burn. The dems and their media lap dogs never made a peep. They actually encouraged it. Now they steal elections.

The assault on our democracy started long before yesterday. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

07-Jan-21
Paul,

If you look at down ballot races, especially at the state level (legislatures and governorships), R did exceedingly well. Some of the analysis of the election I have read said this happened because of a repudiation of Trump personally, not policy wise. Offered as proof is that he actually increased his percentages in Democrat strongholds like metropolitan areas, but this was offset by significant percentage losses in suburbia, especially with female voters turning their backs on him. I am still amazed at the number of trump supporters who seem incapable of understanding likability matters to most people. Not saying it should, just saying it does and hopefully we get that before the next nomination process.

From: TrapperKayak
07-Jan-21
Ziek, KSflat, and all the rest of you Lefty Bidenists, I bet you're 'Over the Moon' like AOC that Ossoff and the Dems now own the Senate. Lol! I can't WAIT til you get what you voted for. I bet yu will love the taxes you'll be paying, for the Green New Deal $90 Trillion....Hahahaha! Then, maybe you'll finally STFU.

From: bigdog21
07-Jan-21
ITs not over by far just the beginning. the worst has yat to be seen.

From: Michael
07-Jan-21
A friendly reminder. If Trump hadn’t won in 2016 it would have been smash my phone Hillary as president from 2016 till 2024.

08-Jan-21

Adventurewriter's embedded Photo
Adventurewriter's embedded Photo
It is staggering how dumb people can be...really

From: Bowman
08-Jan-21

Bowman's Link
I have read your post, it's very interesting. Enjoy the fun game Puzzle jigsaw with your child

From: Rupe
08-Jan-21
Only a total ignoramus would have voted for Hiden Biden. The senile hustler that was accused of rape. Maybe that’s the common denominator for the love affair with him. Who knows.

From: Rocky D
08-Jan-21
It’s amazing how our leftist breathers on this site has such a feeling of superiority.

Go and read my post! That is the National synopsis. The Bowsite synopsis is that for us on the right right cannot understand how hunters can come to the decision to vote left.

Ziek - B careful, you have already said enough that it probably would not be wise to repeat in the presence of the right person.

The left has been using divisive language for years and have been playing the race card. Words have the power to divide and with division comes violence. This behavior is not a surprise to me and should not surprise no one else.

KS - As for as you, once your connection with green energy was established it was clear what the basis of your bias.

From: KSflatlander
08-Jan-21
Rocky D- “Words have the power to divide and with division comes violence.” You’re seriously oblivious. Now this matters to you. Tell that to Trump.

Go ahead an tell yourself that it must be that I have done bio work for renewables and my vote is only self serving. Does it make you feel better? FYI I also have worked on the keystone XL, coal plants, etc. I have also worked on natural gas oil pipelines this year.

Maybe my vote can simply be explained because I thought a senile old man who leans left was better than a conspiracy theorist fascist.

08-Jan-21
Yes. Please feel free to insult the next person you meet in person Ziek. The way you do on your key board. Moronic, ignorant, lost individuals as you see them. I bet you’d stopped them morons from disgracing our capital.

FWIW, the capital building are chambers of the government OWNED by the people. Not the legislative branch. I do t condone tearing it up. But, I have no problems with making elected officials accountable.

From: Loprofile
08-Jan-21
Half of the country’s voters disagree with the other side Anyone who is 100% sure that they are on the right side is probably kidding themselves.

08-Jan-21
Really? I’m pretty sure morality is defined for us.

08-Jan-21
We hold elected officials accountable at the polls, not with attempted illegal and violent coups. And it appears that Trump and others are not willing to accept the election outcome and took failed actions to overturn it.

I for one gladly accept a democracy with temporary weak (hopefully temporary) leadership over a dictatorship.

From: Tate
08-Jan-21
Habitat, KS, Ziek, Stix, and others. It's apparent that this and the other BHA thread are saturated in a deep political divide that has become the essence of life in the US.

The debates you are trying to settle will be unending, and you are engaging with a mindset in folks that will never end. I applaud you for your passion in trying to make the US a better place from the deep divides that have been caused, especially in the last 4 years.

At this point you would be better off getting on with the prospect of a more peaceful and hopefully adventurous life in the outdoors. Let the arrogance continue on amongst themselves. The energy they are expelling on this thread would be so useful if channeled in the right direction. Don't let yourself be dragged down with the ignorant vitriol and circular logic these people using. They are better off arguing amongst themselves. let them have an audience of themselves.

The time to walkaway is now, in the victories you have achieved, and let the defeated wallow in their own mud.

From: Rocky D
08-Jan-21
I for one gladly accept a democracy with temporary weak (hopefully temporary) leadership over a dictatorship.“

“Habitat - Evidently, you do not understand the seriousness of the accusations from the left and the potential threat to a society when you pit one group against another. America has already been in one civil war. The rhetoric is not just opposing opinions. The rhetoric is a philosophy that many have died to defend. To many bar fights has have occurred because of loose talk. These are scary times. I have spent the forty three years defending this country directly or indirectly as an Army employee. Be careful when playing with the American story because there’s no guarantee that it will remain as is.

This is serious, we had better start moving to the middle or this is not going to end well. Some of the changes that people are talking of making will not be tolerated by a significant segment of society.

As you say, “ We hold elected officials accountable at the polls, not with attempted illegal and violent coups.” Many think and the facts support that there was already a deep state coup attempt with the bogus Russia investigation. Liberals don’t jump up and go conspiracy theorists! The fact have proven this out even you do not acknowledge it.

Deny the fact that the DOJ used the Hillary bought and paid for Russian dossier, the DOJ used it knowing full well knowing that it was not from a credible source, and that this was known all the way to The office of the president.

The left continues to play identity politics and the right has been identified as racist, deplorable, and a bunch rednecks that do not want to progress. This will not go on forever! It lands to close to home. People will not stand to be condemned forever without opposition. If you think that people are going to let the polls determine their level of freedom then we are all naive.

From: Stix
08-Jan-21
Thanks, good advice, I'll take it. BYE!...:

'Habitat, KS, Ziek, Stix, and others. It's apparent that this and the other BHA thread are saturated in a deep political divide that has become the essence of life in the US. The debates you are trying to settle will be unending, and you are engaging with a mindset in folks that will never end. I applaud you for your passion in trying to make the US a better place from the deep divides that have been caused, especially in the last 4 years.

At this point you would be better off getting on with the prospect of a more peaceful and hopefully adventurous life in the outdoors. Let the arrogance continue on amongst themselves. The energy they are expelling on this thread would be so useful if channeled in the right direction. Don't let yourself be dragged down with the ignorant vitriol and circular logic these people using. They are better off arguing amongst themselves. let them have an audience of themselves.

The time to walkaway is now, in the victories you have achieved, and let the defeated wallow in their own mud.'

08-Jan-21
If you think these problems are just temporary, then you are part of the problem. I agree you hold politicians by accountable at the polls. Until the polls are no longer valid. And, regardless of what the WSJ or any other media group says, there are mountains of evidence that is the case in certain areas.

From: BC
08-Jan-21
"And it appears that Trump and others are not willing to accept the election outcome and took failed actions to overturn it".

You could substitute "Trump" with "democrats" and this statement would describe the last four years.

08-Jan-21
Rocky,

We agree on one thing, we better start moving to the middle. And the electorate confirmed most Americans are centrists with our most recent election.

I acknowledge and accept the fact that the dems in Congress attempted to overthrow a legitimately elected president. I also acknowledge that our president's behavior made this effort much easier than it should have been.

Mr. Trump is a narcissist incapable of receiving sound advice. If he could have acted with the decency expected of the office, he would have won in an actual landslide instead of the imaginary one he cannot let go of. Too bad for the nation, but especially we conservatives who actually believe in a limited government, one not driven by populist trends as Mr. Trump was/is prone to do. $2K checks is not conservatism, no matter what the ACU says.

What else can I say about the left that other than their opportunism has left them morally bankrupt IMO.

Rocky, thank you for your service! What is important now is Republicans agree upon an actual right of center platform that takes a big tent approach, and finds a spokesperson that can be embraced by the majority because they recognize their role is as a servant to the people, not to themselves.

Getting America back on track will not be done quickly, but will require time and effort to win the hearts and minds of those still learning. It will require accepting some temporary setbacks, it will require a uniter, not a divider. I am a teacher, and I try to do my part by explaining to my students why I believe in economic freedom (markets) and that requires political freedom, democracy to function as efficiently as possible. And that there are no perfect solutions, markets may create challenges such as inequity at a level a moral populace may find untenable, yet no doubt they have raised standards for more by far than any other system.

Rocky, both sides have fringes that are not acceptable or tolerable today. And both sides seem incapable of admitting those fringes exist, and then having the courage to distance themselves because they might need their votes. I am almost 62, too old to be threatened as I have been that the fringe right knows who I am and I will not last. I continue to speak out, just as I do when folks want identity politics to dictate how and what I can think.

Yes, let's move to the middle, I am with you on that!

From: Jaquomo
08-Jan-21
Tate, the "deep divide" started 12 years ago when Obama and the Dems had a super-majority. When McCain and other leading Repunlicans met with Obama to offer to work with them, Obama smirked and said "John, I won". Then hevrefereed to Republicans as "the enemy". Then Crazy Nancy enacted a rule in the House that prevented Republicans from offering any amendments to bills. Then Harry Reid eliminated the filibuster for judicial appointees so they could ram everyone through with no opposition. Republicans might as well have gone home for two years.

Obama and the Dems created the wide divide which in turn created Trump.

Just wait a couple months when the charges are dropped against the police in the George Floyd fentanyl overdose case. Ziek, Ksflatlander, and all their people will be burning cities again, and the media and Left will call it "righteous indignation".

From: Glunt@work
08-Jan-21
Move to the middle? Like a scenario where a conservative like me can be happy or at least ok with 25% - 50% of the decisions and policy that DC turns out?

I'll take it.

From: NoWiser
08-Jan-21
I seriously doubt either Ziek or Ksflatlander have burned or will burn down any cities.

From: TrapperKayak
08-Jan-21
And I doubt anyone on here on the right broke down the barriers to and stormed the Capitol.

08-Jan-21
Lou, if you want to bet me, let's do one, benefits to P&Y? I say the charges will not be dropped, at least not all of them.

And let me state unequivocally, nor should all of the charges be dropped IMO. I am not a criminal attorney, but kneeling on a man's neck for almost 9 minutes, several of those with no movement observed, while said individual was face down in handcuffs ought to be recognized as egregious government behavior. That said, I support the use of deadly force when life is threatened, and even property, can reasonably be expected to occur such as what we observed this week in our Nation's Capitol.

From: Rupe
08-Jan-21

'TD, RK, Jaquomo, BC, WV Mountaineer, Rocky D, Trapperkayak and many many others. It's apparent that this and the other threads are saturated in a deep political divide that has become the essence of life in the US. The debates you are trying to settle will be unending, and you are engaging with a mindset in folks that will never end. I applaud you for your passion in trying to make the US a better place from the deep divides that have been caused by the Obama years and Democrats in general.

At this point you would be better off getting on with the prospect of a more peaceful and hopefully adventurous life in the outdoors. Let the arrogance continue on amongst themselves. The energy they are expelling on this thread would be so useful if channeled in the right direction. Don't let yourself be dragged down with the ignorant vitriol and circular logic these people are using. They are better off arguing amongst themselves. Let them have an audience of themselves.

The time to walkaway is now and let the clueless Leftwing nut jobs wallow in their own mud and the destruction they have insured for this Nation”

*FIXED

From: Rocky D
08-Jan-21
HBW, if we keep wanting to win the argument their is no movement to the middle. I got it, procedures and protocols should quickly identify the wrongdoing. We got played on this and all other blue on black crime. When was the last time that you saw blue on white crime on national TV. Where is the equality? In the Breonna Taylor case she was harboring a criminal. Ooops, punked again!

Where was the left’s outrage in Seattle, Chicago, and Portland. Where is it when we are turning over statues? Where is your condemnation of Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg? The last I can say about Trump is that the left spent four years and thirty plus millions of dollars to find the president’s so called corruption and failed to corroborate with evidence while on the other hand found repeated corruption in the Democratic administration!

Do you see a trend? To move to the middle means that you have to change your lens or at least look through the other guys lens.

I am profoundly aware of the president’s shortcomings. I have been listening to the echoes from the Democratic Party! Where was the much talked about civility?

In closing, moving to the middle requires both parties to move but understand that U. S. Constitutional foundational rights are probably non starters. If it is guns, as they say in the South “that dog want hunt”.

From: KSflatlander
08-Jan-21

KSflatlander's embedded Photo
KSflatlander's embedded Photo
We will all get to see if the new DOI is good for hunters.

On a common ground note, I did some treestand maintenance recently and took some of my older half platform stands and made them full platform with flip up seats. I added a foot rest and painted them with bedliner from a rattle can. How did I do?

I’m good with meeting in the middle without all the name calling and vitriol.

Hey, Trax. I enjoyed reading the rundown of your season via PM. Sounds like you and your boys had a fun year hunting.

From: x-man
08-Jan-21
Pot----meet kettle

08-Jan-21
Rocky,

I have condemned all that you refer to and at times in person.

I prefer the market place undo Zucker and his virtual monopoly, we need a conservative leaning social media platform. To me at least, this last election showed not all is lost to liberal causes.

I agree on not giving up Constitutional Rights, unless done so through the process allowed for in the Constitution itself, such as giving women the right to vote.

I am pro-life, but the Libertarian in me doesn't care about civil unions/marriages or other social issues that seems to bother some. I want to move to less regulation, lower taxes and portability of health care coverage. In that regards, especially on the last issue, flexibility from both sides is necessary. And deficits/debt!

From: OneBooner
08-Jan-21
I would not meet in the middle with any leftist because the middle isn’t really any where close to the middle.

From: Michael
08-Jan-21
Things are looking up. Biden doesn’t want to make uncle Bernie secretary of labor. His reasoning is he doesn’t want to risk loosing the seat.

08-Jan-21

DiRTY MiKE 's embedded Photo
Liberal sanctioned
DiRTY MiKE 's embedded Photo
Liberal sanctioned
Harris and biden had a chance to unite the country yesterday. Instead they poured gasoline on the fire and showed themselves as the radical leftists they are.

Buckle up, those peaceful protesters harris keeps bailing out are going to ramp up and burn down a town near you.

From: Loprofile
08-Jan-21
“Really? I’m pretty sure morality is defined for us.”

Darn. I was under the impression that you were a Trump supporter

From: Tate
08-Jan-21
A question on the logic by some of you folks. I would like to bring this up because I believe it is relevant to the political fracture.

My wife's brothers lives outside of Fairbanks, Alaska, quite isolated and living a subsistence lifestyle since 1990. He is isolated enough that he has no contact with current events except when he travels to town. every 3-4 months. He makes it a point of restocking his hunting ammunition after the end of hunting seasons as it is quite expensive there and the retailer usually sells extra ammo at the end of the season at a discounted price.

In 1992 during and after the presidential election, there was no ammo available as the folks in the lower 48 were hoarding ammo because of the threat of Bill Clinton coming for your guns, and extensive taxes on ammo. This never materialized.

In 2008 he had acquired enough hunting ammo, so he never went into town til later. He had no idea that there was a new president. But finally when he did go to town in February 2009, the ammo shelves were empty again. He said to the clerk, a democrat must have been elected. The folks once again in the lower 48 were hoarding ammo because of the threat of Barack Obama coming for your guns, and extensive taxes on ammo. This never materialized.

I haven't heard from him since late October, but I am sure once again the ammo shelves will be cleared once again in the lower 48 were hoarding ammo and know a Democrat was elected because of the threat of Joe Biden coming for your guns, and extensive taxes on ammo. This again will never materialize.

It's a selfish attitude, taking away ammo from folks who are truly in need for their survival.

The human logic of the right wing in your country is amusing to watch. Hoarding, Anxiety, etc. When do you all have time to enjoy life?

From: bigswivle
08-Jan-21
You could substitute "Trump" with "democrats" and this statement would describe the last four years.

Bingo. The Russians are coming!!!!!

From: Rocky D
08-Jan-21
Tate, Welcome back, guns were just an example! Freedom of speech may have been a better subject! You Canadians had quite the foray if I remember about he an she...

From: Rocky D
08-Jan-21
All, I agree compromise is a slow road to hell! That is how we got here. That is the impasse in a nutshell.

From: sundowner
08-Jan-21
I wonder why some politically oriented threads are not poofed, while OTHERS ARE NOT..??

From: sleepyhunter
08-Jan-21
White Falcon, did somebody pull you from a trash can in downtown Austin?

From: trublucolo
08-Jan-21
Baltimore Mayor came out today wanting statehood within 100 days..., packing the SC and other courts will probably start around January 21st. Reparations around the 22nd. Rewarding China for COVID will last the duration of this Dem pResidency. Planned Parenthood will expect something for bringing the pink pussy hat crew to the table. Social media will continue to censor opposing viewpoints under Biden's protection. Biden has a lot of other special interest groups to pay off as well for putting him and it in the White House, the stress will probably force him out... then the Canadians can laugh at us for having a pResident in the White House who couldn't even attain 3% favorability from her own party.....

From: Michael
08-Jan-21
Now that Trump is suspended from Twitter indefinitely there will be no more tweets. That is unless he decides to send his messages through the national alert system. Then every cell phone in the country will get it.

From: KSflatlander
08-Jan-21
You got TRUMP’ED!

(New catch phrase when you get kicked off Twitter)

You’re welcome ESPN

From: lawdy
08-Jan-21
My brother works with farmers trying to keep their farms by diversifying and thereby keeping the land profitable. He is really scared that the Chinese are buying up crop land heavily in Canada and recently purchased almost 150,000 acres of prime farm land here. The food goes to China. We could be seeing food prices soar as we lose this country to the Chinese.

From: brunse
08-Jan-21
Micheal. I suspect Biden has no choice in the matter of cabinet members. He is and has been a tool of the dnc for longer than I have been alive. The dnc hates Bernie and anyone not loyal to them. I agree the whole not willing to lose a seat is malarkey.

From: bigdog21
08-Jan-21
Like I said you need to look up, Biden one wourld Gov. and united nations agenda 2030 and look at the last 4 presidents pushing this agenda and china is exspected to be a wourld 1st leader because of finacial power. its all out there for you to read then think about everything going on. virus, riots, imagration, division off the country.. all well planed , and guns ha they will take them are goverment has 14 countrys to help threw the UN why you think all the pollations flipped when trump said no more UN. and there not stupid eneough to let use have millions of guns without a plan. read un agenda 2030 and agenda 21 you will put some light on it.

From: Chief 419
08-Jan-21
Tate - Ammo hoarding doesn't just occur when Democrats are elected. Ammo hoarding started as soon as Covid hit. Hoarding increased when the "peaceful protests" started, looting begn and cities were set on fire. Ammo hoarding can occur at any time. The US is going to be under the absolute control of the Democrat Party for at least two years. Don't expect the hoarding to stop until there begins to be some balance of power in Washington again. Biden is planning to installing Beto as gun czar. Nothing good will come from that. Democrats were buying guns and ammo in record numbers when the cities were on fire.

From: bigdog21
08-Jan-21
sorry :Biden new wourld Goverment

From: Tate
08-Jan-21

Tate's Link
One world gov't. I heard that also before. when Clinton elected, when Obama elected, and now when Biden elected.

Any Trump supporters have lost any credibility when this video went public.

And the Blue Lives Matter Flag with that group didn't apply to the officer that was killed after being hit in the head with a fire extinguisher

I guess now you will blame it on Antifa wearing maga hats

From: TrapperKayak
08-Jan-21
I don't compromise with criminals, commies, and traitors. I won't ever give in to someone trying to,steeal my freedoms, or trying to give away my livelihood to other criminals, i.e., ILLEGAL ALIENS being offered sanctuary, American jobs, and tax free handouts like health care, and welfare. Ask any immigrant who obtained citizenship the legal and ethical way....how they feel about amnesty. You won't get many favorable responses. Yet many here support the very people promising such infringements on Americans' freedoms. The shame...I am not a hard person to satisfy, but I will absolutely never cave to anyone taking away the God given rights of law abiding citizens and giving them to those who break the law, especially by those who broke the law. And I hope you won't either. If you do, then you are a traitor to America.

From: TrapperKayak
09-Jan-21
Generations of young men and women died with honor protecting FREEDOM for this nation, and these so called do-goooders want to just give it all away to the undeserving? They don't give $#!+ about the recipients of these handouts any further than to glean their votes to secure more power for their own hungry greedy selves. Its a disgrace, and a downright sham, and they have succeeded in bluffing the (almost) majority of Americans to get their power. Only they CHEATED. tate, you made a good point, but still, I can't sit back and let them get away with it without voicing my opinion. I will be happy though, when they start reaping what they sow, and got what they wished and voted for. Then will come the second guessing, and the gnashing of teeth....

From: TrapperKayak
09-Jan-21
I meant Rupe, not tate...

From: DaleT
09-Jan-21
I guess that I am one of the least informed individuals here - but I keep seeing references to "God given rights" and I am at a loss as to the origin of these - is the source biblical ?????? If so, please provide where this is written.

From: Glunt@work
09-Jan-21
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That discusses them but they don't come from paper or other people.

You can decide who/what you believe the creator is. God, mother nature, aliens, Allah, Waheguru, etc.. They don't need to be written down as they exist regardless of what man writes down. They are inherent and self-evident. Even if people aren't allowed to exercise them by other people, they still exist.

From: TrapperKayak
09-Jan-21
Thank you Glunt. I guess there are some voters who never read the Constitution, Bill of Rights, a $1 Bill (In God We Trust) etc.

09-Jan-21
I think Dale was asking the “source” of God given rights, how do we know God ordained them? Is His guarantee of these rights our Founders enumerated in the Bible or other document?

FTR, I accept unequivocally they are rights from birth and therefore guaranteed by my Creator, but this is Faith that others do not share.

From: kakiatkids
09-Jan-21
Anyway, what are your thoughts for the Pitt vs. Cle and Buffalo vs Indy games?

From: Grey Ghost
09-Jan-21
I like the Bills, Seahawks, and Bucs, today. Ravens, Saints, and Steelers, tomorrow.

Oh....and to stay on topic...go Red team, boooo Blue team.

Matt

From: Bowbender
09-Jan-21
"...because of the threat of Bill Clinton coming for your guns, and extensive taxes on ammo. This never materialized."

Perhaps you missed the 1994 Assault weaon ban.

Or perhaps this one floated by Feinstein in 2013. Failed to move because the republicans controlled the House. Please note that under this proposed bill, it didn't apply to hunting. Because the 2A is all about hunting?

https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons-ban-summary#:~:text=Rifles%3A%20All%20AK%20types%2C%20including,AKS%3B%20All%20AR%20types%2C%20including

This assault weaon ban was proposed in 2019. It applies to semi-auto assault weapons. Which is ironic because an assault rifle by definiton is capable of full auto. But hey, let's make shit up as we go, because the media won't call us out on it. 34 co-sponsors. All democrats.

https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/f/d/fdca734c-4855-49f3-aa1d-2ed02e791d6d/E5ECBD1B1D722D5C4AEDAEBB6276AB36.awb-bill-text.pdf

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/66

It's not because they haven't tried. They have. And will keep doing so.

From: Tate
09-Jan-21

Tate's Link
Trump said he would walk with protesters to the Capitol, but drove off in his motorcade

Coward, where was he when this happened? Definitely not with the protestors.

Warning: Graphic

From: Chaz
09-Jan-21
Lol - the Democrats whose daddy’s were Democrats , it Ain’t the same party jr.

From: Will
09-Jan-21
Buffalo takes it all, I hope. It feels very dirty to say that, given I'm a life long Pat's fan. But there is something about seeing Buffalo win it all that would be cool. Pitt would make me viscerally sick. Meh Cle and Indy.

Things I'm confident in:

America will survive as an amazing and independent Nation on this earth.

You can be an amazing human being, a great community member, and a proud citizen of your nation if you are Left or Right.

The opposite is also true.

The more extreme one's views, the more one feels ease with vilification of those they disagree with or do not understand, the more one needs to step back, and deeply assess how they are viewing things and consider if there is a better approach. That's L or R.

Peak performers, be the individuals or enterprises, never stop seeking way's to improve. They never try to stay the same. If they do, they lose "peak performer" status pretty quickly. America has done just that for all of it's years on earth, always sought out ways to meet the moment and exceed it. It's failed and faltered and risen and changed and grown. That started from when America started and has and will continue past all of us.

Those are just things I've been thinking about, with the chaos and craziness of current events. Carry on with the more targeted political debate.

From: TrapperKayak
09-Jan-21
I doubt Trump's Secret Service would have allowed the President to mingle with the protestors, many of which may have been radical left wingers disguised as Trump supporters and raising Hell in a continued effort to make the right and Trump look bad. My theory of course...

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21
“My theory of course...” LMAO.

It’s call making sh#% up.

The fact don’t care what you believe.

From: Tate
09-Jan-21
His supporters should be ticked off because Trump called for the protestors to march to the capitol and show strength, and said he would march with them, but then wisked off to safety by secret service to his motorcade. Even if they drove him to the capitol to lead a peaceful protest and keep the crowd organized, that would have been the least he could have done. His behavior on this was unpatriotic to let his loyal supporters, who were with him from day one, face the wrath alone.

This event fed the left and made it harder on republicans to do anything of substance. Now traditional conservative values will held suspect. This was a large loss for conservative values and a huge gain for the socialists, higher taxes, support justified unemployment, unchecked immigration, especially firearm regulations. On the fence politicians will now support further firearm restrictions because of the threats being made against them.

He has single handedly handcuffed your republican party from doing anything. Remember when I said he's gonna take down everyone with him?

If I were his supporter, I would feel let down, and BTW, your president has command over the secret service. You see this with him exiting cars during inaugural parade, etc. He could have put himself in jeopardy with his supporters. Pence would have assumed command. That's the heroics of a true patriot.

From: Glunt@work
09-Jan-21
"I think Dale was asking the “source” of God given rights, how do we know God ordained them? Is His guarantee of these rights our Founders enumerated in the Bible or other document?

FTR, I accept unequivocally they are rights from birth and therefore guaranteed by my Creator, but this is Faith that others do not share."

I get it. Some people believe all rights come from decisions made by other people, usually a government. "How do we know God ordained them?" - I don't. But they are self-evident. When you hit your thumb with a hammer, it hurts because you hit it with a hammer. The cause is self-evident. My explanation was complete even though some may not accept it. The level of faith in a deity varies from 100% convinced to 100% sure there isn't one and every level in between. That doesn't change the fact that hitting your thumb with a hammer hurts.

self-ev·i·dent /?self ?ev?d?nt/ adjective adjective: self-evident not needing to be demonstrated or explained; obvious.

From: bigdog21
09-Jan-21
anyone going o DC on the 20th ? maybe we could car pool.

From: Grey Ghost
09-Jan-21
I figured many of you were in DC last Wednesday. How much vacation do ya'll have?

;-)

Matt

From: Ziek
09-Jan-21
I don't like being absent on a popular thread for so long because it's hard to maintain continuity. But I had to start managing my dad's estate.

And I only want to clarify, once again, my position. Too many of you create your own narrative and argue/attack others on that narrative instead of what was actually said.

While I had never voted a straight ticket until 2020, I had been a registered Republican, and voted for the Republican nominee for President my entire life, until I didn't have that choice. (I'm now unaffiliated) My problem was/is with Trump, (and so should yours by now if you ever want to see Republicans regain a majority) not a love of Democrats, although I do agree with them on some issues. If it wasn't clear, my thanking Trump in my previous post for turning power over to the Democratic Party wasn't actually thanking him. It was sarcastic blame.

When I hear people say, it was a choice between Hillary or Trump, while that was true, It should have NEVER come to that. The failure of Republicans was nominating him in the first place. It was clear before, during and, after he ran that he was unsuitable. I cheered when Clinton was impeached. But he was impeached for less than what Trump bragged about during the primaries, as only one example. While I couldn't have known how bad it would finally get, it wasn't all that surprising. And it doesn't matter how badly you think he was treated. He incited a violent overthrow of a LEGAL election. Any other narrative is fake news. And anyone who still supports him can only be considered anti-American. Even most of his staunch supporters and enablers in government finally put their political interest behind those of the country. Those few that haven't openly denounced him, will likely regret it. My guess is, behind the scenes Pence has his figurative knee on Trump's neck, commanding him to behave, or else.

It's also true that our government doesn't work as it should. That is not the fault of elected officials. It's the fault of all of us, or at least too many of us. I say it again, politics is NOT a winner take all proposition. Those that think it is, or should be, are at fault. That approach can only lead to failure, chaos, and anarchy. We should be electing people who run on compromise and shared allegiance to EVERYONE. I only hope the Dems don't try to overreach, and do a better job at that than the recent, failed administration. They sure can't do any worse. Hopefully, Republicans can get back to being Republicans. If not, get ready for a LONG Democratic reign.

So to be clear, I am NOT a left wing liberal! I am also not a far right, nut job believing it idiotic conspiracy theories and white supremacy.

09-Jan-21

Here is reality. In case you are ever capable of recognizing it again. I nor many here cares not one ounce about party politics. While republicans might be the lesser of the two evils currently, they surely aren’t worth setting up base camp with. Currently, I understand you see them as the less of two evils. Totally content to accept it in the name of party politics yet, so ignorant you lecture others of the dire consequences of doing so. By admitting you’d rather the party win versus fixing what ails the system.

For the last time on this thread, let me explain that what people saw in Trump wasn’t his achievement of the Republican platform issues. Because in case you missed it, they were against a good bit of his goals too. Instead, people found solace in a guy willing to POINT out and FIGHT against the problems that party politics 100% created.

More importantly , he did so while giving up great personal wealth to do this. Because he truly feels that is what was ailing this country.

It was that commitment alone that so many will accept what he was, to try and fix what this country was becoming. A group of elite class that was stomping on the backs of those that make this republic possible.

These elected people aren’t our superiors. They work for us. And both parties have forgotten that as a whole.

So, you can sell out for the Republican Party. That’s your choice. But, it in no way is going to fix the abuse the party is handing the American people.

I too vote likely the same way as you. I’ve never doubted that. The only thing I doubt about you is your ability to see the problem. Because currently you are the problem.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21
Rather vote for a platform debated and agreed upon by a party than to pledge loyalty and sell out to a demagogue.

Good post Ziek.

09-Jan-21
The fix starts in the primaries. From local on up. General elections are only the results of what the party system gives us. So, fix the party system and you fix the problem.

I unfortunately believe that average American does not posses enough responsibility to see it through though. Because it was human nature that got us here. It’s going to take an honest effort to get us out. People don’t like that. They like blissfully ignorant. Until it bites them in the butt.

From: 70lbdraw
09-Jan-21
KS, I'm curious. What are your thoughts on the censorship currently plaqueing the internet?

Do you agree/disagree with it?

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21
As a private company, they make the rules. You don’t follow their policies they can ban you if they want. That’s capitalism.

Kind of the same if you kneel during the National Anthem while working during company time you can be fired for it.

If I walk into a bass pro and insight a riot I can be banned indefinitely. I see no difference.

From: 70lbdraw
09-Jan-21
What if it were to affect this very forum? I'm not trying to be a smarta**. If they were to shut it down, how would you feel? I guess what I'm asking is; do you support censorship, based on political bias?

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21
Your comparison isn’t apples to apples. The government did not kick Trump off Twitter. The private company did for policy violations.

The government didn’t shut down all of Twitter nor could they. They can’t shut Bowsite down. However, Pat can shut it down and he can kick me off for pretty much whatever reason he wants. It’s his private company and his rules.

I support private companies running there companies how they want as long as they are not discriminating a protected class.

Trump is the POTUS. He has the largest communication platform in the World regardless of Twitter. In addition, he has other alternatives for social media platforms.

From: trublucolo
09-Jan-21
"Kind of the same if you kneel during the National Anthem while working during company time you can be fired for it."

Until you play the race card, in which case you get your employer fired.

09-Jan-21
Agree with Ryan here, if you can’t force a bakery to make a cake that violates their religious beliefs, then you can’t force a private social media platform to take customers they don’t want. Seems consistent to me, am I missing something?

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21
trublu- please show where that has happened.

From: Ziek
09-Jan-21
"These elected people aren’t our superiors. They work for us."

Nothing could be truer, WV, and no one understands that less than Trump. If you believe that, how can you countenance Trump not fulfilling his remaining responsibilities and preparing to leave when he was fired?

I DO understand the problem. Too many people think Democracy is enforcing one set of political ideology on everyone. I've lived long enough to have lived under both parties occupying the White House. We had good, and not so good Presidents from both parties. And nothing much changed in my life. Some things I agreed with, and some things I didn't. But like most, I never thought I would see a President of the United States, deliberately incite an insurrection in order to seize power. It's intolerable, and should infuriate every American. Some of us saw the threat he imposed sooner than others, but no one can deny it now.

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-21
“The private company did for policy violations.“

Him and thousands of others...

From: 70lbdraw
09-Jan-21
Fair enough KS. One more question if I may. Ziek, chime in if you'd like.

Regardless of the team anyone supports,...are you comfortable with the current voting laws/options/oversight?

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-21
Any Republican who voted for Biden because of Trump then you have to be a political idiot. If the shoe fits wear it. You cannot justify political suicide based on one person in these days and times of political polarization. You must not be very well grounded in your foundational beliefs if any candidate that has been nominated can make you switch your party. Reminds me of the quote “show me a man who will stand for anything and I will show you a man who stands for nothing!

From: Glunt@work
09-Jan-21
I pay pretty good attention and I haven't seen a President incite insurrection. Including Trumps speech at the rally.

"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."

Sometimes the people responsible for bad things are the ones who actually do the bad things. That's not a popular view these days, I know.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21
No I’m not happy with it. The democrats try to loosen the laws and republicans try to restrict it. Both parties try to gerrymander.

However, I do not believe that there is no widespread voting fraud that would change this election. The courts (democrat and republican judges alike) have ruled. In addition, I do not believe there was a widespread conspiracy because simply...too many people would have to be involved and NOBODY can keep that kind of secret. But that’s my made up sh#% just like TrapperK’s. The facts don’t care what I believe.

Trump lost and that’s that. Get’em next time if his platform was so good...and there will be a next time just as there have been over 200 years.

Screw Trump but if you believe in his platform then find someone to push it who isn’t a destructive narcissist.

09-Jan-21
Ziek, I’m being as polite and honest as I know to be. But, you are so far twisted up, you wouldn’t understand anything I said in answering your question about Trump. It just bounces off you. Your contempt for the man and, over zealous love for party, incapacitates your ability to process anything but Trump bad.

But, I’m anxious to hear your response to 70lb draws question. It’ll be interesting to say the least.

From: Jaquomo
09-Jan-21
This thread is becoming hilarious! Where was the outrage when Dems like Kameltoe Harris and Crazy Nancy were urging their "troops to riot this summer, attacking federal courthouses and police precincts. Anyone who thinks this was an attempted coup is flat out stupid. Many of the Capitol protestors were armed. How many shots were fired? Exactly two, by a rogue cop shooting an unarmed white woman. Yes, pissed off Trump supporters stormed the building. They took selfies inside. Woooo. As Nancy said when her troops were burning cities, "People do what they do".

TDS is more dangerous than COVID.

09-Jan-21
^^^^^Bingo^^^^^

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21
Well you dang sure didn’t see me making excuses for the summer riots your talking about. Unlike you making excuses and minimizing it the Capitol riots now. At best you’re as bad as Pelosi based on your words.

By the way, Please provide some evidence showing that our Vice-President elect and Speaker of the House urging riots this summer. I must have missed that. Seriously, I’m not defending them...I just want to see where they said that. I wasn’t aware they were in Portland at all during the riots.

There goes Justin straying from his right/wrong...black/white world again. You just bend your self professed morals to fit your needs. Rocky’s words “show me a man who will stand for anything and I will show you a man who stands for nothing” come to mind. Were the Capitol riots right or wrong?

From: Treeline
09-Jan-21
Staged.

Totally staged like a bad B flick.

Planned by one “faction” to make sure to make our President look like he incited an “attempted coup”.

Someone bussed in Antifa dressed like Trump supporters... The police opened the barricades, opened the doors, stood to the side, and led the “rioters” to the rotunda. There were cameras running from multiple angles to get the “cops getting overrun” by “Trump supporters”.

If this would have been any kind of real attack, or defense, there would have been at least a lot of knocked heads. Probably a lot of dead bodies...

Made for TV BS..

Wake UP.

From: DaleT
09-Jan-21
and trump saying they were patriots and he loved them - was part of the script also - right?

From: Glunt@work
09-Jan-21
Thats hard to believe Treeline. Not really much harder than believing a bunch of protestors armed with flags and red baseball caps took over the Capitol. Somewhere there is a leader of people who hate the USA watching the videos in disbelief at how easy it would have been to send a couple martyrs in there with their one way tickets to Jannah strapped on them.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
Treeline is as wrong about the Capitol riots as Sidney Powell in court is about voter fraud.

09-Jan-21
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/anti-trump-activist-entered-capitol-wednesday.amp

From: Tate
09-Jan-21
Anyone who believes Trump and his lies regarding the election should consider one thing. He said he will be with the protestors walking to the capital. Well he was behind them,...far behind them,.. leaving in the security of his bullet proof automobile.

He had to end his presidency with one last lie: "I'll will be right with you walking to the capitol"

How can you in all common sense believe him and his assertions regarding the election or any other topic. I'd like to know.

From: Jaquomo
09-Jan-21

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Posting this again for those who missed it the first time. Four piles of garbage.

From: Ziek
09-Jan-21
"are you comfortable with the current voting laws/options/oversight?"

Depends what you mean by "current". Colorado, and other states, have been doing mail in ballots for years, and it works great, especially if you think increased participation is good. It also provides an actual paper trail of the votes. There may have been some minor issues with states that didn't have the time they would have liked to set it up for the volume there was. Some Republicans doing their best to sabotage it ahead of time, didn't help, including Trump's attempt to hamstring the USPS. But I don't think it affected the results, and all the audits support that.

Jaq, the Capital is the peoples' house. Mine, yours, everyone's. So I guess if I come into your house, uninvited and tear it up, your response would just be "Woooo"?

Treeline. Prove it instead of just making up your own reality.

Nice try Glunt, but there was a lot more said than that, and he and his team have been firing them up with lies since before the election. They knew what he meant when he told them "...to fight harder...". I guess Trump was right back when he said he could gun someone down in broad daylight in Times Square, and his base would still love him. He knows suckers when he sees them.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-21
How many busses did it take to get that one guy (John Sullivan) to the Capitol riot? It must be all his fault. Trump supporters are completely innocent. Is that your point Justin? One guy lol. Morals just float whichever way the wind blows.

For the record, John Sullivan should go to prison for what he done.

09-Jan-21
Did google remove Parler?

Why did apple warn parler they’d remove them from the App Store?

From: Jaquomo
09-Jan-21
Ziek, tell that to all the business owners who had their businesses destroyed by the Democratic Militias, who were encouraged to rage like wild animals by Democratic leadership. The police precinct HQ occupied and looted in Seattle by that militia? Yeah, that was just the "Summer of Love". By Democrat standards, what happened at the Capitol was pretty weak by comparison. If that had been a typical Dem mob, the "People's House" would have been lit on fire and those animals would still be inside.

From: Glunt@work
09-Jan-21
Vice President elect Harris in June shortly after retired LE officer David Dorn was killed by looters during a protest earlier that month. Did the rioters and looters "know" what she meant? Or is she really just addressing peaceful protestors around the country as she later stated? The double standards are so over the top its beyond absurd.

"That's right," Harris replied. "But they're not gonna stop. They're not gonna stop, and this is a movement, I'm telling you."

"They're not gonna stop, and everyone beware, because they're not gonna stop," she added. "They're not gonna stop before Election Day in November, and they're not gonna stop after Election Day."

"Everyone should take note of that, on both levels, that they're not going to let up — and they should not. And we should not," she concluded."

10-Jan-21
Relative to the Portland riots, the Capitol protests were mild so no big deal, right Lou? What is that, 4th or 5th grade logic?

A “rogue” officer, did you say publicly the same about Chauvin? I am asking because I don’t remember. If not, that lack of consistency is why so many believe trump supporters are racists no doubt.

Still waiting for your response on the bet.

From: Old School
10-Jan-21
This kind of behavior is not only approved by Democrats - it’s encouraged by them and their “leadership”. So if we use Democrat logic that nobody is responsible for their own actions and it’s always someone else’s fault - then they themselves are to blame for the scene at the capital - after all, it’s what they’ve encouraged people to do when they get upset. “Who said protests have to be peaceful?” - words from the Democrat’s mouths.

By the way - what happened in Portland, Seattle and all across the country should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law - as should what happened this past week.

KS - you crack me up. Stating “I back the blue, I’m pro second amendment, I’m for a hard days work for a days pay” - blah blah blah - yet your great disconnect is that you vote for people who are exactly the OPPOSITE of what you supposedly stand for. They back the thugs not the blue, threaten the 2nd amendment and are not for law and order or a hard days work.

From: TrapperKayak
10-Jan-21
My theory of course...” LMAO. It’s call making sh#% up.

The fact don’t care what you believe. So KS, the fact is the Secret Service WOULD have allowed the President to go out into the crowd of protestors, some of whom may have been Antifa, etc? Tell me the facts please, I must be uninformed.

From: BC
10-Jan-21
Even now the disinformation continues. Notice almost every media source refers to the "Capitol rioters" while all summer when cities were being burned and looted night after night they reported on the "mostly peaceful protesters". Terminology is very persuasive in setting the desired narrative.

From: Will tell
10-Jan-21
Last time I committed on politics on this forum my poor grammar and lack of intelligence was pointed out. My comment is NO COMMENT.

A wise old owl sat on a Oak

The more he saw the less he spoke

The less he spoke the more he heard

I wish more were like that wise old bird.

From: Jaquomo
10-Jan-21
Officer. Chauvin was doing exactly what he was taught in the Minneapolis police training manual to subdue a thrashing suspect who had already hurt his head by thrashing around. George Floyd was saying "I cant breathe" when talking with the officers while he was standing up, from a fentanyl overdose, so they called an ambulance. Then they tried to put him in a cruiser when his symptoms worsened, he started thrashing and hit his head, so they subdued him until the ambulance arrived. The video shows that Chauvins knee wasn't pressing his neck, because several times Floyd raised his head and Chauvin lifted his knee to allow it.

The DA overcharged him to appease her constituents. After the body cam footage is shown in court and the coroner evidence is presented (5X the lethal dose of fentanyl, plus enlarged heart, cocaine, meth, and other health issues), second degree murder won't stick. Third degree murder charges were already dropped.

There are bad cops, no question. But the Democrats made Floyd out to be a hero and worth burning cities over, when he was a drug addict, woman abuser (he threatened to shoot a pregnant woman in the belly) criminal.

From: TrapperKayak
10-Jan-21
Some of these nuts on here would throw stones in their own glass houses just to argue against Trump and ignore all his achievements and his support for Americans. Yes, Trump is an egotist, but that does not mean he did not and could not continue to do a whole lot of good things that help America achieve global independence, and advance Our cause while also helping our allies. What have the Democrats actually accomplished in the last 12 years that helped our country. Relative to the last four under Trump, releatively little. About the only thing Dems acccomplished was blocking the Trump Admin. from accompishing a whole lot more good all the while pissing away millions,upon millions of taxpayers money of hoaxes and bogus impeachments. I hope all you Coloradans here who side with the left get to help pay all your illegal aliens freebies when Biden starts handing out Amnesty packages and medical aid when he and his crime family tame over. Then you might begin to rethink your chkuces made. That goes for any state actually, not just CO. It just seems that CO and adjacent states supporters are proportionately high on this forum.

From: Grey Ghost
10-Jan-21
For me, last Wednesday was perhaps the darkest day in politics in my life. Watching our nation's capital under siege by a mop of right wing thugs was something I never thought I'd see in the US. I've grown to expect that type behavior from shit-hole countries around the world, but not the US.

Perhaps more disturbing is how some of you attempt to distinguish between the riot at our nation's capital and those in Portland and other cities. As if the right has a better, less violent breed of rioters, with a more noble cause. I swear, it's almost as if some of you actually support what happened in DC last week. That's disturbing.

Matt

From: Treeline
10-Jan-21

Treeline's embedded Photo
Treeline's embedded Photo

From: KSflatlander
10-Jan-21
So you all think the Kamala Harris on a late night talk show asked about the protests and her reply is a moral equivalence to Tump (the POTUS) attending a rally and telling protesters to walk down to the Capitol. Ok...sure whatever. That’s not even considering all the rhetoric that led up to the Rally in Washington. I don’t think that’s a fair comparison.

Regardless, that doesn’t give me or anyone to now say all Trump supporters are represented by Capitol rioters. Flip side, I don’t answer for Antifa and any stupid riot that happened this summer. You want to use violence to press a political agenda you should go to jail for it.

You all could just simply call out the wrong that was done by some at the Capitol instead of falsely blaming BLM or Antifa. You excuse a police officer kneeling of a neck of an unconscious man for 3 minutes. Based on the video I can see the cop went to far. He will get his day in court and a jury of his peers will judge him. The Capitol rioters will also be judge by their peers and if found guilty the deserve to go to prison.

You all just can’t believe that someone who voted for Biden and against Trump is a gun owner, has police and first responders in their family, and works for what they have, is a bowhunter because you listen to the President and right wing media news propaganda who try to demonize any who disagrees. The left...the liberals, etc. You just sink further into the Trump/alt right cult. If you know anything about history we have an idea how that means got turn out.

I think Tate did a pretty good job explaining the fear tactics used every time a Democrat is in power and it never comes to fruition. I believe my own eyes and ears over NRA fear tactics. If there are future limitations on the 2A the SCOTUS will decide if it’s constitutional or not. I’m good with that.

From: jjs
10-Jan-21
This whole fiasco falls on SCOTUS, Chief Justice Roberts told the others Justices that he didn't want the MFer Trump to be the cause of a riot to be on his shoulders over the election fraud. This was a complete dereliction of the duties of SOCTUS and now we are down the road of predation.

From: Rocky D
10-Jan-21
“ Perhaps more disturbing is how some of you attempt to distinguish between the riot at our nation's capital and those in Portland and other cities.”

GG, you are correct, there is no difference. I sat here all summer and didn’t see any condemnation of those riots or excuse me, peaceful protest!

As far as the the left on Bowsite I have seen little condemnation of anything except Trump. Zero mention of any accomplishments in which there are many.

The left controls the media, big tech, and Hollywood. So feel free in trying to act like the left chose the higher road. The left has made no effort to hide what the right has been accused of fearing.

Your GD right we are going to take your guns. Health care for all, paying off student loans, and the new green deal all smells of socialism. Look where we have come to and now we are going to identify one incident as the deal breaker. The problem with the left is that when play identity politics eventually someone is going to get hurt. Pound white privilege into the ground and you are constantly reinforcing hatred. Equality is being used as a pathway to power and control and all the left on here sit with there heads in the sand repeating CNN talking points. Frankly, you all make me sick! Tell exactly which planks in the Democratic platform that you disagree with! I bet most of you have not even read it!

From: lawdy
10-Jan-21
I live pretty much off my own land, fully paid for. Plus, I live in a remote area. I made a lot of money with Carter as president. Biden could be even better as the nation crashes and cash becomes king. Heating oil has already risen 40 cents per gallon up here, but we all burn wood we get off old wood yards or our own land. You can’t grow food in our cities, mostly liberal. Fun times coming as the Chinese sell food that was grown on land they bought up in the Midwest.

10-Jan-21
Kamala Harris threatening the American people that these “protests” will continue, should continue, is actually linked to Something. You know, those peaceful protests we experienced all summer. Americans watched cities tore apart, looted, burned, destroyed, people murdered and killed, and all we could get out of the MSM was Peaceful protests

Funny how all the dems called it the same thing. What’s even more ironic is the word play used to set the narrative for her to say that. A very direct threat that you vote for us or we will continue this. It would take a complete horses rearend to dismiss that.

The rioters in DC were wrong. Yet, you gotta ask, over statues and such, they were able to stop much higher numbers and violent rioters. They even shot people earlier in the summer that broke onto the White House grounds. And you can’t stop these people from entering the capital?

Anyways, wrong is wrong. Everyone here has said that. But, in true libtard fashion, That has been glazed over. Totally dismissed.

You gotta have a narrative in order for liberals to feel justified and righteous. The truth is never enough. So, it keeps getting dismissed in Recognition so they can accuse others of things that aren’t true. You see it here when the sheeple lap it up like gravy bone.

From: 70lbdraw
10-Jan-21
"Trump lost and that’s that. Get’em next time if his platform was so good...and there will be a next time just as there have been over 200 years."

"Screw Trump but if you believe in his platform then find someone to push it who isn’t a destructive narcissist."

"There may have been some minor issues with states that didn't have the time they would have liked to set it up for the volume there was. Some Republicans doing their best to sabotage it ahead of time, didn't help, including Trump's attempt to hamstring the USPS."

KS, Ziek, my question never mentioned Trump. I'm referring to future election integrity. But since you mentioned it, I'm curious to see how this conversation would be going if the election had been overturned and Trump was reelected. I'll bet 5 bucks, that you wouldn't be saying, "eh, maybe next time!?"

I feel as though our election process needs to be overhauled, not mention, overseen by a non bias entity. I felt this way when my guy won, AND I felt this way when he lost. So, am I just off my rocker, and off my meds for thinking that way?

From: Treeline
10-Jan-21

Treeline's Link
Trump supporters stopping Antifa from breaking windows. Video clip in the article

From: Treeline
10-Jan-21

Treeline's Link
Interesting to watch how hard the police were fighting to keep anyone out.

One officer is holding the door...

At least 6 standing back against the wall and watching them file through.

From: lawdy
10-Jan-21
Rocky D, there will be no health care for all. When Obama was elected the Dems controlled the Senate and the House. Look what you got, free, if you were poor, or didn’t work, paid for by those who had to pay out a $6000 deductible. There will be no healthcare bill, just the same old Obamacare. It takes a lot of work to destroy Trump and his supporters, first things first. In Canada they pay a huge income tax and a 24-26% sales tax, because it isn’t free. Won’t happen here because lifer pols don’t want to lose their jobs.

From: Stix
10-Jan-21
Politics suck. It's been doing on since beginning of the country. These debates on forums like this do nothing but drive a wedge into families, friends, hunter's, non hunters, rich, poor, black, white. It's all rooted in personal pride, having to be right. Nothing gets accomplished. Since I dropped out you'd be surprised about how I used my time for much better purposes. You only have a short amount of time on this earth, do you want to use it on this junk?

When your time comes to pass on, one thing you won't be saying is "I wish I had more time on bowsite to debate politics"

DROP IT, LET IT GO!

From: Treeline
10-Jan-21

Treeline's Link
Police opening the gate...

From: KSflatlander
10-Jan-21
70lbs- Trump won in 2016 and I wasn’t screaming voter fraud. Actually, on the CF I stated that he was my president and he deserved a chance. I gave him a chance and I thought the negatives far outweighed the positives. The positives I seen were:

Willing to call China to the carpet on unfair trade.

Worked to further secure the border.

Continued to positive market and job trends.

He did work to fulfill his campaign promises better than most president (some I did not agree with but regardless he did push his agenda).

Improved some trade deals.

Improvements on generic drugs.

I’m sure there are others but those are off the top of my head. I don’t praise him for the tax cuts because the deficit issue and my net effective taxes actually went up under Trump because of the deductions that were wiped out. My tax rate did go down but I actually paid more in the end.

However, it is my opinion the further increase in the divide in this country grew greatly under Trump which is evident by the riots. I can’t get behind a leader who pushes conspiracies and doesn’t listen to his appointed experienced experts (many who came out against him). The lying (even the insignificant ones) was a red flag that Trump is an ineffective and dangerous leader. I think the Capitol riots were proof positive and reaffirmed my fears.

70lbs (or any Trump voter here)- Please prove me a list off the top of your head on any positives of the Obama administration. Can you and will you say anything positive about the last Democrat president?

10-Jan-21
Lou,

You are full of crap and know better.

The officers had the same training and two of them tried to have Chauvin let him up.

I did not expect such BS from you. If you are so confident, take the bet. You know it was wrong and you are just playing to the crowd. Do you think your rogue officer’s training was to use lethal force if attacked and fearful of his safety. Your inconsistency speaks volumes of your mindset.

The hard right in this country is as big as a concern as the Squad and other leftist commies. Neither of you will be satisfied until you destroy this country.

From: KSflatlander
10-Jan-21
I think you’re right Stix. I got some treestands to work on and some football to watch today.

I’ll just part by saying that I’m not your enemy and you are not mine. We disagree but I’m thankful we are in a country where we can disagree. Regardless of what any media tells you the “left” or the “right” do not fit in the nice little boxes they define. They, nor you, get to define me. They, nor I, define you. People are more complex than that as most things are shades of gray and not black and white.

Lastly, I’m still amazed at the forethought of our founding fathers with the genius of our Constitution. I just hope we keep leaning on it with the 3 branches of our government. If we do we will make it through this.

Take care.

From: Treeline
10-Jan-21

Treeline's embedded Photo
Treeline's embedded Photo
And, for anyone keeping score

From: Treeline
10-Jan-21
Look up Reichstag fire...

By the way, none of the “Biden picks” for anything have ever been for the people.

Take a hard look at what has been done to censor free speech, destroy businesses, and impose restrictions to freedom. And by whom.

Certainly not the orange man.

This is authoritarian totalitarianism Marxist communism. Hope those who refuse to see it for what it is are happy with their decisions...

From: Glunt@work
10-Jan-21

Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Glunt@work's embedded Photo
The social media is today's printing press. Conservatives had better get busy.

From: Rocky D
10-Jan-21
Lawdy, I wrote a lengthy reply but then figured that it was a waste of time if you were applauding Carter’s economy!

From: lawdy
10-Jan-21
This is just venting as none of us believes that we are changing minds. Time, growing older, living through past administrations, and watching what transpires does. I coach and every so often the Athletic Director calls a coaching “vent meeting.” Very cathartic. I think the threads on instinctive shooting make this thread seem tame, but that affects our mental well being more because shooting style is something we control and truly believe in. We have absolutely no control over our politicians who are incredible hucksters. They get elected and become part of the Washington cesspool once they smell money and fame. Until we have term limits, nothing will ever change and there is no way that will happen.

From: RK
10-Jan-21
Rocky D

I did the same thing and erased it also. Carter, not sure how you could make money in that era. LMAO

Frank. Not sure how the GF Trial is going to come out due to politics but I have a good friend and client that is a Minneapolis Police LT and you owe Lou an apology

Not my worries but truth is truth. And if it prevails in MN the city will be completely burned down by peaceful protesters.

Off to watch football. All my picks won yesterday so I am a little up on money!! Maybe I won’t lose it all today

From: Rocky D
10-Jan-21
Zen quote (not really) When you focus on people’s differences then all see is the difference!

From: 70lbdraw
10-Jan-21
KS, 2016 was a wild ride as well. You may not have been riled up by it, but I lived in Wisconsin at the time and lost a fair number if friends over it that thought the world had ended.

I didn't vote for Obama, but, (and of course I can't prove it) I did step back with a positive attitude, and see what he had to offer. My opinion is that Obama had the unique opportunity to throttle back the nation's racial tensions by starting a new dialogue and including everyone in the country. Obviously the opposite happened, and it only greased the rails of a rapid decline in civil unity.

My point here is the big picture. It has nothing to do with the candidates as much as the process. The lack of election clarity from either side of the isle is ruining this country. I can't imagine ever having to take up arms against my fellow countrymen. But it seems we inch closer to it with each election. I just don't understand the willingness to have your voice muffled, and life interrupted, in the name of identity politics.

From: Huntcell
10-Jan-21
Deleted due inappropriate content.

10-Jan-21
I don’t owe anyone an apology. Everyone should be condemning these riots with the same conviction they did the BLM/ANTIFA riots.

Trying to justify the killing of Floyd while calling an officer under siege by a mob a “rogue” will make people ask why. Is it because the latter is a Trump supporter? Is it because of race?

Numerous employers are firing people who have come out in support of these riots. They get it, violence is never the answer to disagreement over political discourse, it is unacceptable.

I say those that lack the moral conviction to condemn Wednesday’s action owe an apology to all Americans.

10-Jan-21
Who in the world is saying any different Frank?

Understanding why it happened is a big stretch from supporting it.

From: trublucolo
10-Jan-21
"trublu- please show where that has happened." - It was tongue in cheek to your strawman argument of -"Kind of the same if you kneel during the National Anthem while working during company time you can be fired for it." - which hasn't happened and won't ever happen. If you're a NFL caliber player, you'd be on a team. Kneeling for the anthem hardly tops the criminal behavior that is condoned by the nfl.

From: Tonybear61
10-Jan-21
If we were all on the same side of the boat it would capsize-Confucious

From: RK
10-Jan-21
HFW. Of course you don’t!! LMAO !

From: Ziek
10-Jan-21
I just want to know if, when Trump goes to prison, does his secret service detail have to go with him?

From: RK
10-Jan-21
Ziek. Absolutely they go

From: RK
10-Jan-21
That's why they never go to jail

From: KSflatlander
10-Jan-21
DC Jr/HH/HedgeHunter (real name Shawn Maygar) just admitted that he committed a felony. What a tool.

From: Nemophilist
10-Jan-21

Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Nemophilist's embedded Photo

From: lawdy
10-Jan-21
Rocky D, loved your post., but here is how I made out during the Carter years. I played in a touring band and we split up when family issues arose. I had a sizable nest egg and as high interest rates and foreclosures hit, I picked up property cheap, cash sales. I vowed to not play music again on the road, but with Carter, came a lot of depressed people and they drink. The bars in my area were hopping and I ended up working 5 nights a week gigging. Performing as a single I made between $500 and $750 a night with tips, all cash. Of course I claimed it all. Musicians always do well when times are tough and people look to escape reality. Biden should be a God send.

From: Ziek
10-Jan-21
It's not enough to just not applaud it. Acknowledging the instigators and holding them accountable is what some of us are looking for. After weeks of lying about a fraudulent election without any proof, and after being rebuffed by every court, he continued to incite his followers. Finally, with no legal recourse to change the results of the election, Giuliani, Trump Jr., and Trump incited the crowd with unending lies, and promises of taking back the election. Trump then retired to watch the show, never trying to call a stop to it. A real man would have conceded long ago.

From: SIP
10-Jan-21
A democrat....touting that it was lies that created the outrage....Classic

From: trublucolo
10-Jan-21
So what should we do about the co-conspirators behind the Russian Collusion coup attempt that went on a lot longer than this election cycle? Never mind, a few of you will just argue it never happened.

10-Jan-21
They should be prosecuted under the fullest extent of the law and whatever civil actions can be taken as well.

From: BC
10-Jan-21
But they won’t be

10-Jan-21
Ziek and the babbling Jayhawk claimed it was a Justified and needed investigation. So, they won’t be speaking out against it anytime soon.

Ziek obviously can’t read the tweets that Trump sent out telling everyone to not he violent or break the law. None of us can because Twitter removed his account.

I asked a question quite a few posts back about Parker being dropped by google. And, the ramifications of doing so. With no warning. Only because it has become the outspoken home of unbiased speech. No answer on that from the “fair and just” bunch. Just more babble.

Yep, you Lefties and sell out for the party republicans sure are a level headed bunch. Silence who you can’t beat. Lie until you believe it to be the truth. Then type words of how you rationalize it.

All the while blaming a guy for what you all are in personality and nature. Maybe that’s why you guys hate trump so much. You are just like him.

10-Jan-21
I am not like Trump, my dad never left me a bunch of money and I am still on my first wife, and faithful to her.

Justin, did you see 60 minutes tonight? Your thoughts?

Regarding social media private censorship...I am very concerned. Is there any chance that behind the scenes this is being coordinated to prevent as much as possible the coordination and organizing of a more violent protest on January 20th? If not, even though I am a small government guy, I would invite government to establish some regulatory oversight with a board comprised of equal balance.

I appreciate being asked questions instead of having accusations tossed around.

10-Jan-21
Not much outrage for the Woman that was murdered. I have about 20 years of Law enforcement and much of it in training and could be called as a expert witness in use of Force in Police Situations. The justified use of lethal force is as follows. "The IMMEDIATE threat of serious bodily injury or death to yourself or others" End of story. I watched the video numerous times and it is slam dunk murder. He was in a safe spot and nobody was in ANY sort of danger and had PLENTY of time to think about it . This was not a split second chaos low light after a run and fight or such in an alley. The mayor of DC called him a hero. The message is if you murder the "right" peoples its okay. Looked and looked just couldn't find anyplace the Officers name... just imagine the mad dash to get the officer "outed" if the right person had not been shot. If you People blinded by your hate for Trump think all this is going to harken in better days you couldn't be more wrong I have deeply sad to say.. I am also deeply sad to say the darkest day of out nation are coming up sooner than later once these American hating lunatics get their full stride. And if you people on the left think you are going to be immune to all this you couldn't be more wrong. Doesn't work that way. they history book are full of it...the ship goes down we all drown.

From: Glunt@work
11-Jan-21
From what I have seen it appears unjustified. We don't know all the details. No way to know this in the heat of the moment but from her profile it appears her intent was likely to yell at some representatives. Interesting note she was an Obama voter. Rarely a good idea to not comply when an officer has his weapon drawn and pointed at you but I don't see any immediate threat. I also don't know the rules of engagement in that particular setting protecting that particular set of people. Strange deal as there were cops on her side of the doors as well a few feet from her.

From: Nemophilist
11-Jan-21
No proof about election fraud ? "LOL" There is proof everywhere. It's just nobody wants to do anything about it. And I agree 100% with Adventurewriter about the woman that was shot and killed. That was murder. I had 38 years in law enforcement in the military and as a civilian. People are so blinded by their hate for President Trump they don't care about right and wrong. And if you people on the left think these far left politicians care about you just wait. They only care about themselves. I'm not a democrat or a republican, but I'm also not blind. As the saying goes " Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it."

From: TEmbry
11-Jan-21
Didn’t get a chance to read the whole thread, who won the measuring contest above?

From: Shiloh
11-Jan-21
Yeah......there’s always bridges mended and thoughts changed in these threads. It’s entertaining

11-Jan-21
It is entertaining. I don’t watch TV except from news that I stream.

Frank, I didn’t see it.

From: Rocky D
11-Jan-21
Lawdy, you laid it out! You were lucky while most Americans were failing under a democratic administration!

From: wilhille
11-Jan-21
Any person condoning and justifying an attempted coup on our government is a miserable excuse for an American. This was not a Target or Walmart. It was the Capitol! They were running through the halls screaming "Hang Pence!" with zip ties while they ransacked OUR CAPITOL! They would have executed half of the government if they got ahold of them. They drug and beat an officer with an American flag. They killed another. They (the insurrectionists) certainly are not a Republican and they damn sure aren't American. They are homegrown taliban, a super far-right terrorist organization, and they should be dealt with accordingly. They do not represent anything about the American way of life.

From: Nemophilist
11-Jan-21
Don't believe they were all from the right. There properly were some Antifa there pretending to be Trump supporters. Just like the enemy did in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. And as far as a coup. What do you think the left has been doing since 2016.

From: wilhille
11-Jan-21
"Don't believe they were all from the right. There properly were some Antifa there pretending to be Trump supporters. Just like the enemy did in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq"

What is your point? That because the left was there, it's ok? Are you now agreeing with the Left? Or are you admitting that those who did this are the enemy of the United States?

What would your thoughts be if it was BLM protest that broke into our Capitol during a session changing "Hang Pence" with gallows setup outside? Would you guys be ok with it? I know for certain I would be as furious as I am now. It's sickening. They used an American flag to beat a Capitol police officer and then paraded the flag of a failed rebellion/confederacy in the halls of our Capitol. There were hundreds more MAGA and Trump flags than there were United States flags. They were not fighting for the USA, they were fighting for one man. This is not how the USA works. It is shameful.

From: Ziek
11-Jan-21
"... home of unbiased speech."

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It was shut down for spreading incendiary lies, supporting a criminal President! Just like it's illegal to yell fire in a crowded area when there isn't any.

But your rhetoric is counter productive to YOUR goals. Trump didn't win the popular vote in 2016, and he didn't win it in 2020. And many of the votes he got were from domestic terrorists that he courted. There has been a movement to drop the electoral college in favor of the popular vote, and that will surely gain momentum now. Trump and all his enablers are losing more and more support even among Republicans. We can debate Trump's "accomplishments" all day long. But his legacy is as the ONLY American President to try to remain in power by force. That is the fact. The only way forward is to accept that, do what's right and required, and move on. The alternative is to be painted with the same brush, and move farther into an ever increasing minority.

Many of us put up with the nightmare of Trump for four years. But we respected the system and our Country. All we ask is that you do the same.

From: Nemophilist
11-Jan-21

Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Nemophilist's embedded Photo
wilhille if you don't understand my post that's on you.

Almost all the members on here are hunters, both with bows and guns. Biden has said numerous times ( on video ) he's for strict gun control and gun confiscation in America. Let that sink in. Believe what you want to believe I really don't care. Like I said before I'm not democrat or republican.

From: TrapperKayak
11-Jan-21
'...his legacy is as the ONLY American President to try to remain in power by force.' That statement is a total joke. He remains in power until Inauguration Day. What are you, a prophet? Has he tried to remain in power after that date yet?

11-Jan-21
Far right had not one thing to do with it. I know it’s great for noodle brains to suggest there exists such a sector. However, I’m as far right as a person can be. And I nor anyone I know condones the actions that took place at the capital. Treat them like you would anyone else doing that. But, in this case that doesn’t apply. Because thousands did far worse damage to America this past summer with nothing to answer for.

I wander if libtards are capable of absorbing the news.

I saw where MTV reporters released videos of the Trump mob ousting vandals for doing it. Trying to help the police. Calling the looters Antifia. Then I saw where police unlocked and met the mobs in. Something really doesn’t make sense here.

Anyways, I think it’s important to note that while many of the accusations thrown around here are rants to relieve emotions, we also have to remember that what the MSM is feeding us, is likely what they e been doing for the last couple decades. Only showing you what fits their agenda.

There are tons of info coming through every hour that says there is more to this then appears. While Trump supporters are no better then Antifia if they resort to the same tactics, I wouldn’t hang my hat on this being what the media is pitching. Yet anyways.

From: TrapperKayak
11-Jan-21
'But we respected the system and our Country.' Who is 'we'? Adam Schiff? Nancy Pelosi? Chuckyou Schumer? Hilary Clinton? Obama? BIDEN AND SON??? Are you with them? They don't respect any kind of Constitutional protocol, they tried to force their 'truths' down the throats of the 'majority', who amounted to the blind aheep who follow their lies like lemmings... probably a few of the smarter ones playing along just to garner enough votes to drag him over the finish line ahead.

And, you hypocrites now believe Trump when he says he will 'try to remain in power' after inauguration, but,have never believed on word he uttered or tweeted up until now? NONE of you thinking this way have any credibility with anyone smart enough to see right through it.

From: krieger
11-Jan-21
Well, you can sure see who would have ridden with Paul Revere and who would have been a Tory, after reading this thread. LMAO

From: KSflatlander
11-Jan-21
Some people are so gullible it’s dangerous. Categorize this with QAnon.

From: Glunt@work
11-Jan-21
I downloaded all the files. Turns out the guy with the horned hat and flag on a spear at the Capitol is the love child of Elvis and an alien that crashed at Area 51.

From: Ziek
11-Jan-21
Unbelievable!

From: Nemophilist
11-Jan-21
X2 with krieger

From: lawdy
11-Jan-21
America began dying years ago. It fell some when patriotic holidays like Memorial Day and the Fourth of July were shifted around to allow for 3 day money making weekends. Every town and village had parades with proud vets marching. Us kids in the fifties would put our hands over our hearts as Old Glory passed by and cheered our fathers as they passed by trying valiantly to suck in their belly’s while wearing their old uniforms. In school we prayed and pledged allegiance to the flag. Stores closed on Sundays and in my 1st grade class, every kid came from two parent households. The next step down the ladder came when young soldiers like myself, drafted, had to wear civvies off base. A friend of mine, blown off an ammo dump in Vietnam, was given the finger as he limped off a bus to head for home. Since then, the death spiral has continued. We will hit the bottom very soon, and after much bloodshed, may rise. The problem is that only us boomers remember the great America we grew up with and we probably won’t be around. Too bad we never realized how great it was and a lot of us pushed the decline.

From: Nemophilist
11-Jan-21
Over the last six months, Black Lives Matter (BLM) and Antifa riots caused two billion dollars in property damage, killed at least 25 people, and injured over 2,000 police officers. Rioters occupied and burned a police station in Minneapolis. They attacked a federal courthouse in Portland every night for months. In Seattle, Antifa set up an "autonomous zone" where five people were murdered, including two teenagers shot to death when they drove "too fast" near an armed checkpoint.

Senator Kamala Harris applauded the rioters. In June, amid the burning and looting of large swaths of Minneapolis, she said the riots were "not going to let up, and they should not, and we should not." Then she raised money to bail rioters out of jail.

Seattle mayor Jenny Durkan called Seattle's Antifa autonomous zone a "summer of love" before five people died. Two months after the riots began, Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley called for more "unrest in the streets." Vice President Joe Biden did not condemn the rioting for weeks.

Along the way, "progressive" district attorneys have avoided prosecuting rioters. "Insignificant" crimes like arson, looting, and assaulting a police officer will not land a rioter in jail. Often, D.A.s refuse even to charge them. When serial rioters commit more serious crimes, such as throwing a Molotov cocktail at a police officer, charges are reduced or dropped.

In short, Democrat politicians have condoned, rationalized, or ignored rioting by their supporters. It's no surprise that these riots continue. On the night of January 6, Antifa punched the Portland mayor, attacked a county courthouse, and smashed local businesses for the third time this year.

The BLM/Antifa riots are important context for the Capitol riots and the response of Republican leadership.

On the morning of January 6, many thousands of President Trump's supporters gathered near the Capitol. After a speech by the president, they marched to the Capitol grounds. Many stayed there, protesting outside. But several hundred people (including some with Antifa links) pushed past barriers and into the Capitol itself. Along the way, they assaulted dozens of police officers, smashed windows and cabinets, and looted several pieces of property, including a podium and a laptop.

Police officer Brian Sicknick died of injuries after a clash with a rioter. An unarmed Trump-supporter, Ashli Babbitt, died after an officer shot her in the neck. That shooting was questionable — a barrier separated the officer from Ms. Babbitt, and other officers were only a few feet behind her when he fired.

It's worth noting that while some Trump-supporters were rioting, others were merely protesting. Capitol police officers recognized this fact and opened the doors to the Capitol, saying they respected Trump-supporters' "right [to protest]."

The occupation of the Capitol led Congress to evacuate its chambers, interrupting the certification of Electoral College votes. When police cleared the Capitol several hours later, Congress reconvened and completed the certification that same night.

The Capitol riots were serious and violent. But by any measure — death, injury, destruction, criminality — the BLM/Antifa riots were much worse.

The left avoids direct comparisons between the riots and instead implies that Trump-supporters are particularly despicable because they occupied a government building during a formal electoral ceremony.

The problem is that BLM and Antifa often attack public buildings. In June, leftists celebrated reports that rioters near the White House forced Trump into a bunker. Democrats also stormed the Senate building during Justice Kavanaugh's confirmation hearings and occupied the Wisconsin capitol in an attempt to block legislation. Finally, the Capitol riots were not particularly disruptive. Trump-supporters delayed the electoral certification for a few hours. It was, at most, a symbolic gesture.

Now, after months of encouraging and rationalizing BLM and Antifa riots, Democrats condemn Trump-supporters and the Capitol riots in the harshest possible terms. "Treason," "coup," "insurrection," "sedition," "terrorism" — there has been plenty of hysteria.

This is wild hypocrisy. But hypocrisy is normal. Bias or bad faith often leads partisans to condemn opponents for the same behavior they excuse in their supporters.

What is more interesting — and concerning — is Republican leadership's own hysterical response. Borrowing from Democrats, Ted Cruz called Capitol rioters and protesters "terrorists." Tom Cotton and Mitt Romney said they were insurrectionists. Lindsey Graham called for the arrest of everyone who entered the Capitol and raised the possibility of sedition charges. The RNC's communications director called the riots "domestic terrorism."

These statements are overbroad and melodramatic. They fail to distinguish between rioters and protesters. They also falsely imply that anyone who smashed a window is a terrorist, cheapening the term.

What explains Republicans' eagerness to join the left's hysteria? It stems, at least in part, from a basic failure to identify with their voters.

Many Democrats identify with BLM/Antifa rioters and see their violence as, at worst, justifiable anger that goes a step too far — in other words, a matter of bad tactics.

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez explained rising violent crime in New York by citing parents' need to "shoplift bread" for their children. As for the BLM/Antifa riots, the congresswoman said that "[i]f you are calling for an end to this unrest ... but you are not calling for the end of the conditions that created the unrest, you are a hypocrite." In a similar vein, Congresswoman Pressley justified BLM/Antifa riots by explaining that "unrest in our lives" caused "unrest in the streets."

Many Republican leaders seem incapable of relating to their supporters' anger. Based on video and initial arrest reports, most protesters were white, and most were from outside D.C. Some were contractors, some owned small restaurants, others were low-level employees — all people whom lockdowns have harmed.

Most people at the Capitol were normal Americans with legitimate questions about election irregularities. These people have a deep loyalty to a president who is not ashamed to call them his supporters and has consistently put working- and middle-class Americans first on issues of immigration, international trade, and foreign policy.

These Trump-supporters are rightly fearful that Democrats — and many Republicans — are eager for a return to the pre-Trump era in which both parties joined in selling out to China, flooding America with foreign workers, and draining our treasury to fight for someone else's democracy.

Trump-supporters' fears do not justify riots. But they do justify vocal protest. Perhaps that's why a snap poll on the night of January 6 found that a plurality of Republicans approved the "storming" of the Capitol.

After four years of the president's record-setting popularity with rank-and-file Republicans, leaders like Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, and Lindsey Graham still cannot grasp Trump's appeal and his supporters' concerns. Perhaps it's because they spend too much time in the D.C. bubble. Perhaps it's a class issue.

Whatever their issue, they need to fix it. Quickly. A good first step is working to understand the Republican base. A good second step is refusing to echo the left by calling everyone at the Capitol "terrorists."

Republican leaders must do the following with respect to the protests and riots at the Capitol:

First, condemn violence and call for the prosecution of anyone who attacked police or damaged property.

Second, describe the riots and protests in sane, measured tones. Point out that Capitol Police recognized many of those on the Capitol grounds as legitimate protestors. Object to the prosecution of anyone who did nothing more than walk through the building. Stop labeling protesters "domestic terrorists." Demand an investigation into the killing of Ashli Babbitt.

Third, acknowledge Trump-supporters' anger and assure them that the Republican Party will fight for its base. People are suffering and scared — scared of never-ending lockdowns, a changing economy, an all-powerful Democrat party that calls them deplorable, and a weak Republican party that seems eager to abandon them.

Fourth, constantly point out the difference between Republicans' and Democrats' responses to political violence. Republicans issued quick and forceful denunciations of their supporters' rioting. Many Democrats still refuse to do likewise.

From: KSflatlander
11-Jan-21
You all forgot that Paul Revere was yelling the truth...not conspiracy theories.

From: DaleT
11-Jan-21
and I don't think he wasn't headed towards the front lines

From: trublucolo
11-Jan-21
" They should be prosecuted under the fullest extent of the law and whatever civil actions can be taken as well. " - You're right absolutely right HFW,

- and if the DOJ, Senate and House had done their job and prosecuted the guilty parties who pursued the sham "Russian Collusion" , even after they knew the entire farce was based on garbage sourcing, we wouldn't even be discussing the events at the Capitol. If all those lowlifes on the democrat side who participated knowingly in a coup attempt against Trump starting back in 2016 were sitting where they should be, the entire country would be sitting in a better place right now. I'm as dismayed as anybody about what transpired at the Nations Capitol, but we shouldn't have even been discussing a " President Elect Biden" and the electoral shenanigans that democrats pulled to put him there. Him and half the Democrat leadership should be cooling their heels in a federal prison cell.

From: TrapperKayak
11-Jan-21
^^^ ,THAT!!!

From: Ziek
12-Jan-21
Did anyone else see the post from Huntcell that was "Deleted due inappropriate content."?

From: Rocky D
12-Jan-21
KS, let’s get one thing straight! The Russian collusion was a conspiracy and it was confirmed that it was a conspiracy. You and the left raged for four years so do not try to come up that you are without blood on your hands! You played dumb and participated like clone that you are!

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-21
Rocky- keep sipping the Kool Aid. Don’t forget who appointed the special counsel. If there was false information deliberately given to get a warrant then prove it and prosecute those who did it. Don’t forget that the investigation had numerous indictments and convictions for lying and obstructing.

There is a big difference between investigation and insurrection. The investigation into Russian interference in 2016 election was warranted and that’s why the special counsel was appointed by the TRUMP ADMINISTRATION. Manaford, Stone, Flynn, Cohen all should be in prison for lying to investigators. Instead most of them got a crony pardon.

It appears to me that the system worked. I wonder why nobody has been prosecuted for the FISA warrant? Likely because the TRUMP AG knows he would never get a conviction.

Like it of not Russia did interfere in the 2016 election.

Some of you are delusional on this thread. You think you stand on higher ground on intelligence when you’re the ones who fall for the ridiculous conspiracy theories and Trump lies. Over 50 courts and the SCOTUS said there was no credible evidence of widespread election fraud but you still gobble up Trumps lies based on BS. He and you can repeat the same BS over and over but it’s the same ole lie in the end. Only the weak-minded fall for the mental reprogramming through the repeated lie. Trump has done this time and time again from the birther crap to election fraud lies in 2016 & 2020.

Trump lost a fair election and the 3rd branch (courts) of our democracy backed it up. He lost over 50 court cases and yet you all follow the demagogue lies. That plainly is just weak mindedness.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness” - Jesus Christ

From: Live2Hunt
12-Jan-21
Good stuff Nemo!! Wait, the Russians are calling me again. The media, hollywood, and the big mouthed leftists in this country will always cry when they do not get there way and loose a presidency or office. It is unfortunate that people in this country listen to this crap and believe it. It shows every time a Republican gets into office. Sad times for sure. Now we get to look forward to bumbling Joe and whats her name for 4 years. But the media will be orgasmic in there prase of both of them, sickening.

From: Mad Trapper
12-Jan-21

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-21
Complete and total lack of self awareness.

From: 5575
12-Jan-21
Get ready for martial law..

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
“ The vast majority of those cases were dismissed on tenuous procedural grounds.”

You forgot to also mention the lack of credible evidence too. Also the blistering from Republican appointed judges on the Trump “legal” team for lack of evidence.

That’s the problem with lies that have legal implications...eventually they go to court where lies and hearsay are not evidence. This is exactly what happened with Trumps voter fraud lies. He can’t back it up with credible evidence.

From: Ziek
12-Jan-21
Still wondering about the deleted post from a couple of days ago that might have been of interest to law enforcement?

From: Rocky D
12-Jan-21
KS, when are you and the left going to accept some responsibility?

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-21
I’m not accepting the blame or responsibility for left or right extremists idiots. If they do something illegal I implore prosecutors to punish them to the fullest extent of the law. I make no excuses for them either.

From: Rupe
12-Jan-21
“ You forgot to also mention the lack of credible evidence too. Also the blistering from Republican appointed judges on the Trump “legal” team for lack of evidence.

That’s the problem with lies that have legal implications...eventually they go to court where lies and hearsay are not evidence. This is exactly what happened with Trumps voter fraud lies. He can’t back it up with credible evidence.”

Utterly dishonest comments!

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court violated the Pennsylvania Constitution and all your lying will not change that fact. Only a complete idiot would believe Joe Biden legally received 80 Million votes.

From: elkmtngear
12-Jan-21

elkmtngear's Link
No evidence...no court rulings? See link

From: Rocky D
12-Jan-21
KS, when are you and the left going to accept some responsibility?

From: TrapperKayak
12-Jan-21
KS, if you work for the gov't., is your supervisor a Dem.? I can't imagine anyone trying so hard to impress upon intelligent people of such hypocrisy if you are not trying to convince someone of your support for something so bogus...

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
Rupe- If the Pennsylvania Supreme Court did violate the state constitution, as you say, then there are remedies for that. It’s called impeachment. Do you know if any Pennsylvania Supreme Court Justices are being impeached. If no, why not?

I absolutely believe Biden beat Trump in the popular vote and electoral vote. But it doesn’t matter what you or I believe. Biden will be inaugurated as our next president regardless of what you believe.

Elkmtngear- that was from 2019. I’d say that is the system at work. It appears an appeals court did not agree though (See link). The courts interpret the constitution. Not the legislative or executive branch. Seriously, it’s in the Constitution...I assume it’s the same in the Pennsylvania constitution.

From: lawdy
12-Jan-21
Conservatives need to let it go. No violence, sit back and let the Dems rule. Once the stimulus money is blown on goodies and they clamor for more, Biden and his crew will have their hands full. As those who work and own businesses are taxed and regulated to death, they will give up and jump on the gravy train. I bet that deep down inside, those in power are hoping for violence. Crush it with the military, many die, and it reinforces their narrative. Stay home, go fishing, or what ever, and let Pelosi and company destroy themselves. Of course I live in a very rural area where people are too busy making a living to riot or protest. No way in hell would I want to live in an urban area.

From: Ziek
12-Jan-21
"Only a complete idiot would believe Joe Biden legally received 80 Million votes."

Talk about lack of intelligence. Colorado's 3rd Congressional district sent a completely unqualified, high school drop out, Trumpublican to congress. Her ONLY qualification was that she wore a pistol on her hip while campaigning. She's only been in Washington for a couple of weeks, and is already under investigation for helping the mob.

When are you going to understand that you are NOT helping your/our cause?

From: elkmtngear
12-Jan-21

elkmtngear's Link
KS, sorry, tried to find a "liberal" source, but the dates were off. I'm referring to the December 14th ruling (2020). Most liberal sources have "altered" the actual outcome of the ruling, to appear that it is false. See updated link.

Do you believe it's "OK" for unidentified people to flood the State with over 200, 000 ballots, because a Liberal Governor changed the rules ? Wisconsin needs to pull their Electors.

From: TRnCO
12-Jan-21
"Talk about lack of intelligence. Colorado's 3rd Congressional district sent a completely unqualified, high school drop out, Trumpublican to congress. Her ONLY qualification was that she wore a pistol on her hip while campaigning. She's only been in Washington for a couple of weeks, and is already under investigation for helping the mob."

Her job is to offset AOC and her constituents. What was AOC's qualifications? Oh yeah, bartender? or something like that...LOL...

From: Bowbender
12-Jan-21
"When are you going to understand that you are NOT helping your/our cause?"

Nor are those that masquerade as conservatives or republicans and are basically an echo of all things democrat.

From: Rocky D
12-Jan-21
Four years of trying to remove a duly elected president with legal and illegal means and we then turn around and support the party that cavorted with the media, Hollywood, big tech, BLM, and Antifa and you still trying to justify your vote! Talk about being dumb!

From: Glunt@work
12-Jan-21
Congresswoman Boebert certainly doesn't have much political experience or big degrees but based on the performance of DC, the typical qualifications don't seem to produce much. Her platform was pretty straight up conservative and we'll see how she does.

I'm constantly told the people have spoken and time to accept Biden and unite. Well the people in Boebert's district spoke as well. So far not much accepting and uniting from the other side in her case.

From: Rocky D
12-Jan-21
Remember, AOC’s words “ in order for us to not have to negotiate “!

From: TrapperKayak
12-Jan-21
'....cavorted with the media, Hollywood, big tech, BLM, and Antifa and you still trying to justify your vote!' Don't forget China Rocky. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'd bet that Biden and the rest (inc Obama, the Clintons, etc) worked together to develop and spread COVID to America in order to gain control over Trumps Admin, and to the world, in order to dominate the globe. Mark my words, that is China's ultimate goal, to rule the world. And I don't give a damn who disagrees, nor will I ever accept Biden/Harris as duly elected officials. They cheated. They relentlessy ran their agenda amok starting the early morning of election day after, 2016. And until I have PROOF that didn't happen, I will not accept a Biden presidency. If proof they didn't cheat is shown, I will. I have little faith in that scenario.

From: Rocky D
12-Jan-21
TrapperK, that’s a reach! I would just like them to acknowledge what everyone knows.

From: jjs
12-Jan-21
TrapperKayak, same sentiments. At least we know who are the RINOs and it is time to primary them out.

From: Scrappy
12-Jan-21
I'm just here to do a drive by post.

What is worse than the trolls on this forum???

The ones thar feed them. Just food for thought guys. The trolls are sitting back and pushing you guys buttons and laughing out loud at you.

From: 3rd Degree
12-Jan-21
As Rocky said, and I have said before as well, most of this would be put to rest if they simply allowed the polls to be investigated and showed the people.

Simply put, it does not support there agenda. They are pushing for massive insurrection, so they can shred the constitution, and take total control. They have already attacked the 1st. The second is next.

For all the lefties here, touting how much better we will be under these 2 clowns and the swamp, why don't you lead by example and line up to surrender your firearms now?

Practice what you preach!

From: TrapperKayak
12-Jan-21
IDC about the trolls, they mean nothi,g. This is what,I tell everyone regardless of who tries to push buttons. I believe it with all my heart. If it is a reach, why, then, what do you call impeachment and Russian collusion? Why the hell isn't HRC serving time i, the big house?? She is protected, thats why. There is big money involved in every facet of this whole Democratic,m scheme to gain global power. The honest peoe don't,stand a chance. The only way honesty has footing is through Jesus Christ, so in truth, I am not worried., I will not remain silent in my beliefs though, Ill call out dishonesty all day long.

From: Michael
12-Jan-21
Trump could come out tomorrow saying he accepts the election results. It will still be 4 years quicker then Hillary.

From: Rocky D
12-Jan-21
TrapperK, that’s a reach! I would just like them to acknowledge what everyone knows.

From: BC
12-Jan-21
Anyone who can be ID'd as even being at the Capitol during this event is being outed, loosing employment, undergoing interorgation, being put on the"no fly list" and labeled an anti American racist terrorist.

I don't remember anything like this happening to the antifa thugs who trashed our cities last summer. Many were not even prosecuted. All were given a nod and wink by the MSM and those same dems who are in power now. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

12-Jan-21
Who in this world could predict anything about the immediate future based on what’s happened? I can’t. Other then my elected officials suck.

One certainty is for sure though. Things change. And the ramifications of this stolen election is going to have severe consequences. The party with the violent, biased, one way only outlook is bent on getting further gun restrictions. Further taxes on EVERYTHING. They were shown over the last 12 years every law and government entity will bend the rules to allow them to fulfill their agenda. With absolutely zero recourse. And there is not one check in place to stop them over the next two years.

Yes, there is some huge money being thrown around by worldwide interests to ensure this country shifts away from more freedom individually to more control by government. To Keep us common folk inline so we can pay our taxes and make them richer and more dominate. It’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s human nature at play.

You are either working towards that or standing against it. China, Iran, Russia, and your legislative branch are working hard to get you to conform. Find solace in the redneck conspiracy theorists who refuses to jump in line with what is considered proper action by our beloved government. Because every single person responsible for the founding of this country was considered a radical by their government and the sheeple who ate from their trough.

We are rounding the corner. Somethings going to change. It has to. We are either going to get in line or, get on the line as a country. Because living like a slave ain’t for a lot of us. God put me here for a reason. Just like you. And, it wasn’t to fulfill agenda contrary to his commandments or teachings. Give Caesar what is his but, there was in no way a message that we are to be enslaved by doing so.

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-21
God bless you Trax. You are the crazy uncle of the Bowsite.

From: 70lbdraw
12-Jan-21
Fortunately, this country has a large population of battle hardened veterans of all ages...not to mention every other veteran out there including myself. Now follow the living roots of those veterans. There are plenty of us that have committed to protect the constitution, and others that were taught the importance of it... especially after so many died to see that we keep it! Believe me, this is far from over.

By the way...check out the latest comments from China regarding our current situation. Then, you tell me if the timing of this f'n virus isn't way too convenient?!

From: Skippy
12-Jan-21

Skippy's embedded Photo
Skippy's embedded Photo
Trapper kayak might be onto something.... anybody ever seen this picture?

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
“Social media users have been sharing a photograph with text that claims it shows former President Barack Obama, Dr. Anthony Fauci and Melinda Gates in 2015 at a laboratory in Wuhan, China – the city where the COVID-19 outbreak was first detected in December last year. This is false: Melinda Gates does not appear in the photo, and it was taken at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland.“

C’mon man.

12-Jan-21
Never saw A picture of it. Just read they were there. And, kayak is 200% correct in the fact the virus was no accident in my opinion. And, I can’t figure out if the Chinese were acting alone. Eitherway, I know what the democrat party did with it. It wasn’t bad enough the virus was here. They had to politicize it. And that folks is why the political climate in this country is so hostile now.

The virus started this whole new arena of voting by mail. In places there never was voting by mail. Which prompted rule changes in elections. Many of which violated state statue. Which allowed for a known fraud in ballots post dated. Which involved eye witness testimony of voter fraud being directed by bosses of mail handlers. Which involved videos of boxes of ballots that appeared out from under tables after counting stopped for the night.

Ironically none of the court cases developed from these issues, would be addressed by the US Supreme Court. Because of error procedures needing to be addressed by the states in question first. Which led to a guy that is a personable as a brick, except to women of all ages that he can fondle under the disguise of being a touchy feely kind of guy, who campaigned on raised taxes and attacking the 2nd amendment, who couldn’t put more then 600 people at any rally, getting more votes then any candidate in history. When at any other time in history, this approach for the office of POTUS, has proven to be a failing attempt.

The courts in states didn’t hear the cases. It’s impossible to prove anything fishy about the voting. Except the eye witness testimony, in such a short order. So, we were told to suck it up, you get Joe. We will fix the voting issue after Trump is gone.

And knowing all this, which isn’t just my opinion, except on the origin and reason for the virus, we’ve got people that see no problem with it. I can’t imagine anyone not urging all judicial appointees to get to the bottom of this elections discrepancies regardless of who you voted for. Nope, They’ll take Joe and what he promises gladly over Trump. Because he hurt their feelings. SMH. And these people still call themselves relevant. My feelings. Wouldn’t want to hurt ‘em.

From: Orion
12-Jan-21
For Ziek and Ksflatlander and any other leftists..... Ayatollah Khamenei who is the head of the BIGGEST TERRORIST ORGANIZATION on earth and has been chanting Death to America and Death to Israel for 40 years,,, who is responsible for the death of MILLIONS of Iranians and Thousands of Americans and Israeli and other soldiers still has a Twitter and Facebook account...... Same with the Leader of HAMAS and the head of the Yemeni Terrorist Group and many others......

But the President of the United States of America and those (American or not) who want justice and speak against a certain party or person(s) have been banned.... Let that sink in.......

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-21
“And, kayak is 200% correct in the fact the virus was no accident in my opinion.“

There’s a contradiction in terms. Facts can be proven true or false. Opinions are feelings that are unproven. This is exactly the root cause why we are where we are today in my OPINION.

From: RK
12-Jan-21
Who here is going to D.C. For the swearing in of Pee Pads and knee pads ?

From: Skippy
12-Jan-21
KS ,just because the media says it’s false you believe it? I guess it’s just like the mostly peaceful protest all summer right? It is a fact the virus came from a lab in wuhan China.

From: trublucolo
12-Jan-21
For years people looked at Chicago style politics with disdain and wondered why people in Illinois put up with it, now I see how it happens. We just witnessed a major political party in this country embrace the same philosophy and approach, along with supposedly the most voters in history approving. There will be no putting this genie back in the bottle. From this point forward, democrats will always have "just enough winning ballots to take them over the top" in any contests that are relevant, look at California and New York. They've mastered the art of going low in politics, you got to give them that.

While I'll never be able to pull the lever for any democrat at any level moving forward after the past four years, I'm also seeing a lot of reasons to do the same with a lot of supposed "conservatives" in the current republican party. As long as there is always someone there to blame America's woes on, democrats, social media and the main stream media will blame republicans, and our elected republicans will roll over with their rears in the air for them. What's the point in even voting for them? This isn't about Trump, this is about how utterly ineffective the Republican Party has become with few exceptions. Pelosi out boxed every spineless republican out there starting with McConnell and Graham. Maybe it's time to just let Darwin take over.

From: Live2Hunt
13-Jan-21
The ChiComm virus is where this all started. The America hating socialists have been trying every stunt and selling every lie they could since President Trump was elected. All to get him out, because he isn't one of them. He could not be controlled. He threatened their dynasty, their old school power establishment. Their lies and their filthy political maneuvers did not work, but the ChiComm virus came to their rescue and they made great use of it. It fed the sheep and gave them cover. It is done. What matters now is what we the people do present and in the future. You can't fight and defeat the America hating socialists if you don't identify and out them first. They aren't just the likes of Chuck the smilin possum or crazy Nancy or the Nadler and Schiff crap show.

Trax, exactly my feeling of the whole mess and how I have felt and stated to others. Demo's are the biggest cry baby, snot nosed little kid whiners I have ever seen. It made me sick enough that I had to stop watching any media TV, especially any of the big "news" shows.

From: KSflatlander
13-Jan-21

KSflatlander's embedded Photo
KSflatlander's embedded Photo
Message from Joint Chiefs on U.S. Capitol Riot

January 12, 2021 5:19 PM The following is the Jan. 12, 2021 message to U.S. troops from the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

MEMORANDUM FOR THE JOINT FORCE SUBJECT: MESSAGE TO THE JOINT FORCE

The American people have trusted the Armed Forces of the United States to protect them and our Constitution for almost 250 years. As we have done throughout our history, the U.S. military will obey lawful orders from civilian leadership, support civil authorities to protect lives and property, ensure public safety in accordance with the law, and remain fully committed to protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The violent riot in Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021 was a direct assault on the U.S. Congress, the Capitol building, and our Constitutional process. We mourn the deaths of the two Capitol policemen and others connected to these unprecedented events.

We witnessed actions inside the Capitol building that were inconsistent with the rule of law. The rights of freedom of speech and assembly do not give anyone the right to resort to violence, sedition and insurrection.

As Service Members, we must embody the values and ideals of the Nation. We support and defend the Constitution. Any act to disrupt the Constitutional process is not only against our traditions, values, and oath; it is against the law.

On January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Constitution, confirmed by the states and the courts, and certified by Congress, President-elect Biden will be inaugurated and will become our 46th Commander in Chief.

To our men and women deployed and at home, safeguarding our country-stay ready, keep your eyes on the horizon, and remain focused on the mission. We honor your continued service in defense of every American.

[signed]

Mark A. Milley General, U.S. Army Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

John E. Hyten General, U.S. Air Force Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

James C. McConville General, U.S. Army Chief of Staff of the Army

David H. Berger General, U.S. Marine Corps Commandant of the Marine Corps

Michael M. Gilday Admiral, U.S. Navy Chief of Naval Operations

Charles Q. Brown, Jr. General, U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff of the Air Force

John W. Raymond General, U.S. Space Force Chief of Space Operations

Daniel R. Hokanson General, U.S. Army Chief of the National Guard Bureau

From: TrapperKayak
13-Jan-21
Trax, thank God there are young intelligent minds interested in keeping the Nation going in the correct direction, to remain free and independent. Please do your best to try and recruit more young people to think straight. KS and Ziek seem to be the last of the lefty holdouts here. I often wonder how that $150 Bil taxpayers money that O' biden/Bama dropped off on the Tehran airfield tarmak was spent? Communism does not work alone, that't why it's called 'COMMUNE-ISM'. China, Russia, Iran and probably NK's Little Rocket Man are in this together. The collusion is on their part, along with any commie leaning group in America. Bernie is a big fan I bet, if not actually a participant. People are getting paid off to conform to Communism in,any form it can morph into. Big,Money IS corruption. You cannot serve God and Mammon both. Most of the lefties are known to be athiests. All these pieces/ parts form one giant puzzle, which the Dems and the Commies are rushing to complete, because Trump and the right have been getting so close to flipping the table it is on, over. I applaud you guys above for expressing yourselves on behalf freedom, the Constitution, and protecting our American way of life vs. its ugly conversion to Communism. Keep it up. Good will be victorius in the long run, but now is not the time to go lax. Do go silent, ever. Stand for truth. KS, that memo does not prove jackcrap other than to illustrate how high up either stupidty ( which I doubt) or traitors can be on the seniority list of our Govt. Look how many Congress people side with the left. What does that tell you? That someone stands to get rich like Biden has been doing through Hunter. You are eithe one of them and a troll here, or you have such a high level of TDS, or else just a plain ole lemming, that there is no convincing you. I think this way because you never addressed my question on your superiors on your job. This is not an attack on you. i just,want to know WHY you support Biden and the left. You are a hunter for crying out loud. Both of you (Ziek). There must be a real good reason for your position. You just hate Trump? You must be making one helluva lot,of money to side with those who will raise your taxes astronically and try to enslave you. I can make No sense of it.

From: TrapperKayak
13-Jan-21
Don't go silent, ever.

From: lawdy
13-Jan-21
Our founding fathers left us a peaceful way to clean up the corrupt government we see, a constitutional convention.

From: Glunt@work
13-Jan-21
We need to keep and promote what we think is right without losing the country and taking rights from others. Whats happening right now is more dangerous than Trump or Biden being President.

If we lose free speech, we lose the only peaceful tool to get it back. Having to hear something that is wrong or against my values is far better than people not having the right to say it.

From: beemann
13-Jan-21
The truth is staring you in the face you just don't want to believe it. Kelly, Bolton, Barr, and many others inside Trump world have all basically said the same things. How many examples do you need to see before you wake up. Whats next? Some of you going to try and convince us that Q-anon is legit. Anybody that says anything against your savior Trump is labeled a liberal. And its all down hill from there. Threads like these really show you who the extremists are. Where did the post go that said the capitol riots were all a made for tv hoax. And for the record I have been a life time republican and NRA member but in my estimation they have lost there mind. This didn't start recently its been going on for close to 40 years. Listening to Rush Limbaugh spew his garbage for thirty years has a negative effect on people. Some of you need to turn off the garbage and listen to some music. Shoot your bow go shed hunting. We are not going to be communists. Flame away.

From: TrapperKayak
13-Jan-21
Yup^

From: Skippy
13-Jan-21
KS ,just because the media says it’s false you believe it? I guess it’s just like the mostly peaceful protest all summer right? It is a fact the virus came from a lab in wuhan China.

From: lawdy
13-Jan-21
I feel for those kids with their Army uniforms on in DC. As a former serviceman, the realization that you may have to kill another human being is tough, but imagine what it may be like to kill fellow Americans, possibly friends or family, in order to assuage the Dems hatred. A good friend of mine was in the Devils Brigade in WW2. Up until his death he had nightmares about the war, especially when they were under a “take no Prisoners” order. He told me the night before I left for the Service how Christmas Eve a valley separated them and the Italians. The sang Christmas carols across the valley together. Christmas morning, his unit of the Devils Brigade scaled the cliffs and killed every Italian. War sucks, this nation is about to pay a heavy price if we are not careful. Look at the resentment that still exists after the Civil War. Our leaders have failed us and all need to go.

From: Norseman
13-Jan-21
RINO alert! Voting Independent next round i’m sure...

From: beemann
13-Jan-21
Trax you and I agree on the existence of sheep. The sheep I see allow themselves to be spoon fed garbage and lies by all the far right fear mongers. But hey they will make good communists. Repeating the lies of their leader. Spewing the state run propaganda, I'ts what good comrades do. You can recognize all these evil dictators and point them out but you cant see Trump for what he is. He has shown us many times. How many Republicans do you need to see jump ship before you can believe? How many Republicans do you need to hear say the election was legit before you believe? And that's the problem you will never believe. God could come down from above and remove Trump from the earth and say , "this is not what I had in mind". By supper time Fox News would be spinning it as an Alien abduction. And the next day you would be repeating it as an original idea. Lawdy can you imagine anything more awful and un American than those brave young soldiers having to defend the capitol because of the Presidents lies... Carry on.

From: Rocky D
13-Jan-21
A nation that acts incongruent to its basic values is a collective whole much like any human who does so. The negative behavior will be like a cancer that will take full advantage of any wrongdoing. You will get to where you don’t like what you see in the mirror. Your self esteem will be shot and you will try to over compensate and your shadow personality will subconsciously be your locus of control and your capacity as a human will be diminished. Just like the human this nation is out of control and is driven by selfishness, hedonism, and individuality. These do not align well with duty, honor, and country. As they say there is no I in team. The opposite of shame honor.

Honor is when a nation courageously lives up to it values and the character of which grows exponentially. Americans have been there before but the question is can the country reclaim its dignity back to its former self. I am 63 and I know the decline in the America. As a kid I was free to roam and the thought of safety wasn’t even a concern. Today it is on everyone’s lexicon. Just look at this thread and with all the common values yet we make no headway! We are just a micro representation of the ugliness that we see today! I would venture to say that as a collective group our values would high be compared nationally. Now just imagine the divide that we must overcome.

From: Glunt@work
13-Jan-21
Its a big divide for sure. The politicians that 1/2 the country vote for just impeached Trump again. A bunch of the other 1/2 of the country rank him as one of the best Presidents. We are a long ways apart.

From: Tilzbow
13-Jan-21
Actually, it’s not half and half. It’s more like 1/4 like this guy and 1/4 like that guy, 1/4 are less disgusted with this guy while the other 1/4 are less disgusted with that guy.

Trump needs to fade away. The divide began widening during Obama’s terms and Trump did nothing to bring the country closer together, in fact he made it worse and I didn’t think that was possible. I voted for the egotistical slime ball because the alternative seemed worse. History will prove if this turns out to be true but I’ll be voting red in two years for sure with hope the Congress can be flipped.

14-Jan-21
In case you missed it, it was Obama, Hillary, and now Joe who insults those who vote against them. Effectively insinuating half the country is below them. And, their supporters carried right on through with it. Alienating half the country as nothing more then simple minded puppets.

If you voted against them, It’s went from being bitter over race, guns and religion to being so dumb you can’t possibly choose what’s best for America. Yet, you say Trump’s made it worse. Because the half that was alienated got a voice? What friggin’ planet do you live on?

Maybe Trump didn’t do anything to resolve the issue by refusing to cower. Maybe him calling people names didn't defuse it. But, saying he made it worse is woefully ignorant of cause and effect in my opinion.

From: Norseman
14-Jan-21
RINO alert!

14-Jan-21
If Trump had denounced the mob while the capitol was being raided he would not have been impeached. The bare minimum that we would expect from any other president is all that was needed. His pride wouldn't allow that to happen.

From: Michael
14-Jan-21
Trump was impeached because they want him out of politics. Denouncing the mob or not denouncing the mob has no bearing on it. All that is in an excuse.

From: Rocky D
14-Jan-21
Trump may or may have help in creating or widening of the gap but it is the Democrats at the the helm now and I only see the divide widening precipitously day by day. This country is spewing hatred from all over. This like a bar fight where many times the instigators may have even walked out by the time the first blow lands. I do not think that America realizes the evil that one human can inflict on another. These are scary times... We have lived under the umbrella of safety for far to long! It’s like my brother told me when I was about fifteen. He said that I needed to a good a$$ whooping and then he said no, you need to see a good a$$ whooping!

14-Jan-21
Michael, that is probably true, and knowing that he still chose to taken certain actions that led to thin ice and chose not to take actions that could have gotten him off of thin ice. I don't really understand the deflect and blame game that is so prevalent from both the left and right.

From: Rocky D
14-Jan-21
Huntski, we need to look at the people to fix this. The politicians are going to continue use us against each other. We should be fixing them by way of vote instead of them fixing us!

14-Jan-21
Rocky, I completely agree. We live in a land of abundance and our politicians always come at us from a scarcity mindset. "You don't have what you need and it's the fault of the rich people, the poor people, immigrants, guns, lack of guns, the left, the right and gosh darnit I'm the only man/woman that can fix the problem for you."

From: TrapperKayak
14-Jan-21
'If Trump had denounced the mob while the capitol was being raided he would not have been impeached. The bare minimum that we would expect from any other president is all that was needed. His pride wouldn't allow that to happen.' Okay, then... If candidate Biden/Harris had not denounced the months long seige, arson and destruction of many of our major cities and peoples business last year, and the loss of life of our public servants and innocent victims, (which they didn't, but instead PROMOTED ALL THE ABOVE and then some all the while being supported by their party, media, and Silicon Valley, China/Russia), they still would have been 'false-elected/assigned' the roles of Pres-elect/VP-elect, soon-to-be-President, (and supported by their party, media and Silicon Valley, China/Russia) Does anyone see the double standard here? Does anyone who supports B/H admit to the double standard and comdemn it? I doubt anyone in this power grab does or will.

From: TrapperKayak
14-Jan-21
As little damage as possible if Republicans (not rinos) and anyone in Justice has the cajones to pursue and prosecute.

14-Jan-21
I don't see any double standard, because I offer Biden/Harris as much support as I offer Trump, which is none.

From: Rupe
14-Jan-21
The fact no one in Pennsylvania has been impeached has no bearing on the fact they did violate the Pennsylvania Constitution. You can’t deny it. Your suggestion that not being impeached somehow nullifies the truth is juvenile.

From: TrapperKayak
14-Jan-21
Ic,your gonna impeach Trump, then yohd,have to do the same,for bidenharris.,,not,doin g so is the double,standard

From: KSflatlander
14-Jan-21
Let’s see. Pennsylvania legislators pass a mail-in voting law in 2019. The bill was pushed and passed by republicans. The laws says it must be challenged within 120 days (?) and nobody does. Pennsylvania voters use mail in ballets in the primary...no problem. Trump campaign sue because they lost the election. The case goes to the state Supreme Court and they rule the law is constitutional....unanimously.

Hmmmmm...sounds a lot like the Federal Constitution process to me.

14-Jan-21
Trapper, I'm not impeaching anyone. My point is Trump took certain actions knowing the Democrats wanted him out of office. He gave them a reason on a silver platter. If he is or isn't thrown out of office is of no interest to me, but he should be unsurprised to find himself in the position he is now in. If you have evidence to impeach Biden I strongly support your campaign to move forward with that info.

From: lawdy
14-Jan-21
When you see politicians fight this hard to stay in power and do all they can to destroy the opposition it must be unfathomable the amount of money involved. I think that if we knew the whole story and the riches involved, everyone on this site would join with every commoner in America, along with the military, and drag everyone of them out of DC, tar and feather them and either send them home or to prison.

From: TrapperKayak
14-Jan-21
I am not saying Trump made a good move with the Capitol protest.,,He has,shot,himself in the foot more that once. But there is no way in hell that Biden or Harris should get off scott free for promoting the carnage they called last year, all year in our metro areas. And for that matter, for hillary to get off without so much as a slap on the wrist for all her illegalities.,,They are protected by the mob. I believe that. Its my opinion and I am not alone wth it.

From: Rocky D
15-Jan-21
Could we quit talking about Trump. He is not the problem. The polarization existed in 2016 that is why Trump was elected!

The right has reached a point that they are not willing to go down the left’s proposed path to the future.

Lawdy- Now that the liberals are in office they are in a much stronger position to do the so called tar and feathering!

From: Rupe
15-Jan-21
Wrong again KSFlathead. To change voting laws in Pennsylvania you must amend the Pennsylvania Constitution. That didn’t happen.

What happened was, the governor didn’t think the Legislature went far enough. He went to the legislature and he said, you know the signature requirements, we really shouldn’t have that, the postmark requirements, we really don’t need that, these other requirements that it has to be in by election day, there ought to be a few more days after election day where we can count the ballots, and the legislature said, no, no, we’re not going to do that. He said, oh yes you are.

So he winds up going to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.

The Supreme Court of Pennsylvania has seven justices. A couple of years ago they had an election for three justices, the republicans really weren’t paying attention to it, the democrats were, and they backed three hardcore leftists for the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. Among other things, they were thinking of 2020.

The labor unions poured in a fortune, the teacher unions poured in fortune, the usual groups poured in a fortune, and they won all three seats. And now the makeup of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court is, as I said the members are elected, is five to two Democrat. And the Democrats, when it comes to election law, those five stick together. Much like the three Democrats and John Roberts on the US Supreme Court.

So, what did the Democrats do? They said, well you know what, we have a good idea, a few months before the election, they said, yes, no signatures required, you don’t need signature comparisons, you don’t need a postal date, and if the postal date is smudged, you are to count it anyway, oh and yes, even though election day ends on Tuesday at 8pm ET, we are going to extend it to 5pm ET on Friday.

They had no legal or constitutional basis for doing any of that.

So they violated Article II Section 1 Clause 2 of the United States Constitution which leaves the power to the state legislature to make the election laws.

Now let’s circle back, stay with me here, the reason why reporters don’t cover this is either they are left-wing, or they’re too stupid to follow this.

The moment the state legislature in October 2019 passed the change to its election laws with mail-in voting as the base, they violated the state constitution of Pennsylvania. Now, why is that?

Under the constitution of Pennsylvania, if there are to be any election law changes, you have to amend the constitution. Did they amend the constitution? No. What’s required to amend the constitution of Pennsylvania? It’s very complicated.

There needs to be a majority vote of both houses of the state legislature, not once, but twice. Then there needs to be a respite. Then there needs to be ads in at least two papers in every county in Pennsylvania, all 67 counties, then there needs to be a respite.

Then, finally, the citizenry of Pennsylvania get to vote on whether or not they want the amendment, it has to be on the ballot. Did that happen? No, it didn’t happen. The citizenry of Pennsylvania, we talk about disenfranchisement, they weren’t asked to vote on this change in election laws for mail-in ballots let alone all these other changes that the supreme court made, they weren’t asked at all, they were utterly disenfranchised.

So the state legislature in October 2019 acted unconstitutionally. The governor, by signing it, acted unconstitutionally. The state supreme court by changing even the unconstitutional law acted unconstitutionally, plus violated Article II.

Those are the facts!!!

From: trublucolo
15-Jan-21
Waiting for Ks to tell you where you're wrong, it's coming......

15-Jan-21
It’s not science. lol. It’s only state law.

From: KSflatlander
15-Jan-21
I don’t have to tell him that he is wrong...the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court already did.

From: Rupe
15-Jan-21
You’re an absolute fool. The Constitution was not amended and voted on by the Citizenry. Even your pretzel logic can’t dismiss that. I’ll drop it down to 3rd grade level reading.

1.) Constitution clearly states it must be amended to Change election laws.

2.) there’s a specific intricate process to do this.

3.) the Constitution was not amended as prescribed by law

4.) only the Pennsylvania legislature can change laws

5.) none of these steps were taken, this means Constitution was illegally violated.

Trublucolo and WvMountaineer. You guys nailed it.

From: KSflatlander
15-Jan-21
“1.) Constitution clearly states it must be amended to Change election laws.”

Please provide the exact language in the Penn constitution that says this.

15-Jan-21
Rupe,

I have searched to find any where the U.S. SC found what happened in PA a violation of their Constitution. I have only found where the Justices had no dissenters in their refusal to hear challenges. I admit that I am no law school graduate like you must be, or never passed the Bar as I am sure you have.

Where did you go to law school? Kind of curious if the name calling is part of their curriculum?

From: Will
15-Jan-21
Way back up, there was a comment that seemed to suggest "Where all the lib's at", as if that suggested we couldn't debate this issue, IE. had no point. I may have mistaken the meaning of the comment. But it's had me thinking...

Here is the problem. A debate on these issues in this setting is like trying to build a sky scraper with a pocket knife - frustrating as heck.

I can not bring facts: because information not ordained by Trump or hyper partisan far right R's is considered invalid. I can not bring facts: because they dont matter (see previous statement). We can not discuss nuance: because the media form is difficult for that, and the last two points.

I thought there were more, but each I wrote I deleted because it's summed up above.

In the end I've been losing the desire to debate on these topics, because it's not a debate. Since Trump has created an environment where by only he knows the "Truth" and one must be fully committed to his truth or be branded a moronic democommiedolt... Well, there really isn't a debate to be had.

A few times I've glanced and thought of all sorts of fun things to discuss. Then just stopped, closed that browser window or hit the back button and went to look for fun hunting stuff to learn about or talk about.

But, I agree on something. Lets just get on with deciding Biden is illegitimate if that rationalization lets people move on with life. I do that with Marjorie Taylor Green all the time. I mean, hey, if all those ballots are invalid, I can enjoy believing she's illegitimate too. That feels good.

If you guys are right and things go horridly then in 2 years the Legislature is going red and in 4 you likely get the white house back.

From: TrapperKayak
15-Jan-21
'because information not ordained by Trump or hyper partisan far right R's is considered invalid'. Spoken in true Mass. form. Thats what I'd expect from there. Dowes anyone actually believe Trump is alone in this thinking and we are all his diciples??? There are SO MANY EXPERTS and law-educated professionals interviewed who express their knowledge, positions facts of the matter in several media that it is just plain ignorant to think Trump is the one making these calls. Truml is a businessman who is by no means stupid or uneducated (even though he sounds it sometimes), and has advisors, contacts, experts, lawyers, informers and learns to make decisions along their lines mostly. He is savvy in dealing with allies. If he could,just keep his ego in check, hed still be POTUS.

From: TrapperKayak
15-Jan-21
^^My thoughts exactly...you said it better.

From: Huntcell
15-Jan-21
Sure hope a new Biden thread gets started on the 20th this one has see better days.

Suggested title. Biden’s first 100 days success and failures.

If he does nothing like the last 47years of public service then we should be good .

From: TrapperKayak
15-Jan-21
He's liable to do more harm than do 'nothing'. Or more likely, he'll get ousted by his 'party' and they'll go extreme radical on us. Fast approaching another 1000 post thread here. 'First 100 Days' thread will get there quicker...

15-Jan-21
Will, times change. And, precedences have been established. If no further investigations are done into the potential error and fraud of this election, signing historical behavior to future events is not likely correct.

FWIW, you don’t have to be a zealot to distinguish that our election process has to have the faith and support of the people. And, while it’s easy to suggest the political side an individual stands on will determine whether they believe the election was accurate, it’s just not true.

From: Rupe
15-Jan-21

Rupe's Link
You truly have a reading comprehension issue. The PENNSYLVANIA SUPREME COURT, not the US SC violated the Pa Constitution. That is a fact and you don’t need to be a lawyer to understand that. The cowards on the Supreme Court said Texas had no standing, which is utter nonsense. So the US SC never weighed in on it, but the Pa. Constitution is abundantly clear on the process for changing voting laws. I’m from Pennsylvania and learned about this in high school and college.

The 2019 Pennsylvania vote-by-mail law violates Article VII, sec. 14 of the Pennsylvania Constitution, which lists only four classes of voters entitled to vote absentee: those who cannot vote in person because of work, physical incapacity, religious obligation, or (in the case of county employees) election-related duties. In violation of this constitutional provision, the Pennsylvania vote-by-mail law (Act 77), as described by a 2019 press release from the Pennsylvania governor’s office, “creates a new option to vote by mail without providing an excuse.” Whatever the benefits of such a change in voting law, it could not be legally accomplished without an amendment to the Pennsylvania Constitution.

Secondly the Pa. Supreme Court illegally extended voting, removed signature validation, postmark mandates, and so on.

Kind of like 100 people witness a man shoot someone and kill them and your position is well a judge hasn’t found him guilty yet so it didn’t happen.

From: KSflatlander
15-Jan-21
Rupe- I’ll ask you one more time:

“1.) Constitution clearly states it must be amended to Change election laws.”

Please provide the exact language in the Penn constitution that says this.

15-Jan-21
Rupe,

The SC refused to hear that the PA Constitution was violated, by anyone. I read just fine. Your objectivity has proven time and again to be the same as the guy you worship.

From: Stix
15-Jan-21
Guys, It's over! Get back to bowhunting, ice fishing, or recreating. Anything is better than this waste of human life time.

I'm right,... no I'm right,.... no I'm right. It'll will never end.

From: NoWiser
15-Jan-21
Trax, how do you figure? They have the majority in the senate by 1 vote and the Supreme Court is solidly conservative. I'd say they don't have all that much power, but you can go ahead and panic if you want.

From: BC
15-Jan-21
Will, would have to disagree with “whatever info not ordained by Trump and far right R’s is considered invalid”.

It’s actually the other way around. The left are the ones canceling anyone or anything they don’t agree with. MSM only reports the party line with the intend on political advantage. They twist the narrative to achieve an end (remember the peaceful protests). If anyone differs they are a racist subject to job loss, ridicule and scorn. Big tech companies are now censoring any opinion or fact that opposes liberal dogma and have stated that this is just the beginning.

Anything outside of leftist orthodoxy we are told is invalid.

To blame Trump and Republicans exclusively for the sad state our country is in is not accurate. It’s actually part of the left wing narrative.

Thankfully half of the country can see right through it.

From: Rupe
15-Jan-21
Read the link. The Constitution Article VII, section 14 clearly state the Legislative branch, not the judiciary, determines absentee ballot rules.

From: KSflatlander
15-Jan-21
I read the link. It doesn’t “clearly” state that it must be amended to change voting laws anywhere in your link.

The Penn Supreme Court made their interpretation of the law (unanimously I might add) as is authorized to them by the constitution. You just don’t like their decision.

From: beemann
15-Jan-21
"I can not bring facts: because information not ordained by Trump or hyper partisan far right R's is considered invalid. I can not bring facts: because they dont matter (see previous statement). We can not discuss nuance: because the media form is difficult for that, and the last two points". Well said Will. You cannot have a debate with fanatics, extremists, and fear mongers. Historians see a lot of similarities between what happened in Nazi Germany and the language Trump uses. If you don't believe it look up "the big lie" and see where it takes you. Many of these guys tell us how much they love the country but you would never recognize it by their actions.

From: KSflatlander
15-Jan-21
How about T for Truth...Pat.

From: Will
15-Jan-21
Well, American Thinker has admitted some reality, that's nice. Note in particular paragraph two below from American Thinkers site:

American Thinker and contributors Andrea Widburg, R.D. Wedge, Brian Tomlinson, and Peggy Ryan have published pieces on www.AmericanThinker.com that falsely accuse US Dominion Inc., Dominion Voting Systems, Inc., and Dominion Voting Systems Corporation (collectively “Dominion”) of conspiring to steal the November 2020 election from Donald Trump. These pieces rely on discredited sources who have peddled debunked theories about Dominion’s supposed ties to Venezuela, fraud on Dominion’s machines that resulted in massive vote switching or weighted votes, and other claims falsely stating that there is credible evidence that Dominion acted fraudulently.

These statements are completely false and have no basis in fact. Industry experts and public officials alike have confirmed that Dominion conducted itself appropriately and that there is simply no evidence to support these claims.

It was wrong for us to publish these false statements. We apologize to Dominion for all of the harm this caused them and their employees. We also apologize to our readers for abandoning 9 journalistic principles and misrepresenting Dominion’s track record and its limited role in tabulating votes for the November 2020 election. We regret this grave error.

From: Will
15-Jan-21
BC, I feel you man. The cancel culture crud and what not is a serious issue with left politics. If a right oriented speaker is invited to speak somewhere or what not, that not just should be allowed, but encouraged. One can have logic, speak truth, have good ideas and be on a different political ideological angle. And one can disagree with them and that's fine.

We can debate that. It's different opinions about real things. One person thinks X policy towards government agency X is good because of Y, and someone else thinks not. But how do you debate when a huge part of the situation is that one of the people in the discussion thinks a fork is called a thingamabobber because someone convinced them of that over 5 years (minimum)... Cruz in 16/Iowa, Hilary (popular vote in 16), Biden and Trumps Big Lie in 20 all the easiest examples here - all false, all fully believed.

I totally agree that a lot of stuff on the left is dumb as a bag of rocks. I'm also willing to see that the right is just the next sack over.

Frankly, in a general sense, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that reinstating and tweaking a bit (to fit modern tech) the "Fairness Doctrine" would be huge. I think it would kill actual fake news and it would create more informed citizens/news consumers. It would also help ditch the view that extreme ideas need to take center stage in many formats, and help all of us look at the world in a more well rounded way.

From: KSflatlander
15-Jan-21
T is for Truth and American Thinker ain’t it.

Thanks Will!

From: BC
15-Jan-21
Will, I can agree there are extremes on both sides. My point is, those who control most of the narrative (MSM, big tech, higher ed, Hollywood, etc..) continue to do exactly what you claim Trump and Repubs are doing. They repeat the lies and savage anyone who disagrees.

You will never hear of the extremes on the left. My example of the nightly riots this summer is just one case in point. If you denounced this violence you were a racist. You will constantly hear how every cop wants to kill black people, Trump is a the new Hitler and conservative thought is corrosive to our nation’s values.

All lies but many people believe it and those most able to control the national conversation endorse it. In fact they depend on it to stay in power.

From: Will tell
15-Jan-21
Patriot, one who loves and zealously supports his country.

Insurgent, rising up against established authority.

You only get to pick one my friends. Chose wisely.

From: Bowbender
15-Jan-21

From: Bowbender
15-Jan-21
"Insurgent, rising up against established authority."

You mean like the established authority say in....1775?

From: Rupe
17-Jan-21

Rupe's Link
Wrong again Flathead. Maybe let this Constitutional scholar educate you.

17-Jan-21
I didn't know Mark Levine was a SC Justice.

From: KSflatlander
17-Jan-21
Mark levin LMAO. That makes perfect sense as you just take info from idiots like that and regurgitate it here. You never actually look into it yourself.

I guess you are all for the democratic process until you are not.

You made the claim. Either show where it clearly says that or STFU. Pretty simple.

From: Rupe
17-Jan-21

Rupe's Link
We’re not discussing the SC dummy. Try and keep up. Mark Levin is an acknowledged Constitutional Scholar, has prepared amicus briefs presented to the Supreme Court over 3 dozen times, and worked for the Attorney General. He finished high school in 3 years completely skipping his senior year. He enrolled at Temple University Ambler and graduated magna cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa with a B.A. in Political Science in 1977 at age 19. That means he’s brilliant in case those big words confuse you.

I’ll take his knowledge, education, and expertise over a hack like yourself. But I’m sure you’d argue with him too citing your long term legal education....oh wait!!!

Here’s the Pennsylvania Constitution.

It clearly states only the legislature can change election laws. The Pennsylvania SC. Added provisions to the 2020 election and the Judiciary is forbidden from doing that.

17-Jan-21
I will take the SC over Mark and an angry man like yourself.

Even Einstein was wrong on occasion.

From: Rupe
17-Jan-21
Flathead. Did you graduate magna cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa with a B.A. in Political Science in 1977 at age 19? Doubtful. For an educated clown, such as yourself, to call Levin an idiot...a man intellectually superior to you in every way, is laughable but not surprising so please produce your law degree and what position you graduated in or STFU.

From: KSflatlander
17-Jan-21
Being an idiot and going to college and getting a law degree are not mutually exclusive. Are you seriously trying to use a sub to stand in for you to compare intellect? Lol.

I’ll take a unanimous Penn Supreme Court bipartisan decision and the SCOTUS over some radio and TV lawyer who is obviously bias and a political hack.

By the way Rupe, can you throw a football over that mountain yet? I’ll bet you were a hit in the locker room. Too bad everyone else grew up huh?

From: trublucolo
17-Jan-21
Give it up Rupe, you should know by now that with KS and HFW it's not about being right, it's all about having the last word. If they can insult you with a dose of condescension thrown in, well that's just icing on the cake, they are after all, the only adults in the house........just ask them.

17-Jan-21
You left out Grey ghost.

From: KSflatlander
17-Jan-21
This thread was dead until Rupe brought it back up...last word.

17-Jan-21
Jesus Paul, still a little biased, eh? Who was throwing the name calling. It’s ok I guess when ‘Paul approved’ or the person fits your ideology better.

From: Grey Ghost
17-Jan-21
"You left out Grey ghost."

^^^This from a guy who has posted 40 times to this thread compared to my dozen, or so, posts. So who is more interested in getting the last word?

And please point to my posts that took personal shots at you, Justin. Thanks.

Matt

17-Jan-21
Matt, discussing things and having the last word are two different things. Post count has nothing to do with it. Only content of the posts.

And, I wasn’t trying to offend you. Only have a little fun. Everything doesn’t have to be serious.

From: Grey Ghost
17-Jan-21
So, including me in a list of people who are claimed to only be concerned about getting the last word, and who enjoy being condescending, is just having a "little fun"? Was dissing my profession by making absurdly inaccurate generalizations also just having a "little fun"? Was claiming I've perfected the art of posting comments that only make me "seem better" just more "fun"?

You have a different definition of "fun" than me, my friend.

Matt

17-Jan-21
Matt, I reckon I might. However, I don’t think it’s as different as you think. I do believe it’s called perspective though.

As far as the other thread, if you seriously took that as a shot towards you, then you need to re-read what was stated. I plainly stated you were rare indeed because you had done both. That’s not a shot at you. From where I come from, that would be a compliment.

From: Rocky D
18-Jan-21
“This thread was dead until Rupe brought it back up...last word.”

Ks, just because Rupe brought up salient doesn’t mean that he wanted the last word. I have not seen you condemn anything that left is doing or has done. I have yet to see you bow out of and political conversation! What you fell to realize is that conservatives are tired of compromising which has supported getting the country to this point and time. All of your denying just shows how bad that you want to be RIGHT! Personally, I think the left on Bowsite will rue the day that they voted for Biden. This enlightening may not come soon but it will come!

From: RMhunter
18-Jan-21
I'm not trying to argue politics with anyone but just have a question, for the ones that voted for Biden what policies of his are you for. Because he sure seems to want to come after our 2nd amendment. Thanks in advance

18-Jan-21
I voted for Trump because of his policies, I criticize him because of his behavior. From my perspective, that behavior which I have criticized since early in his first term, is why we do not have his policies for another 4 years. We lost along with trump.

Any criticism of trump will get you labeled here by the blind, dumb hero worshippers that have yet to recognize the conservative ideology is more important than any single individual. I find that ironic since so many claim a love for free speech and the first Amendment, yet attempt to silence you with name calling. Sarcasm present in this response.

Trax, you have the right to voice your opinion, as does every other American. The manner in which we voice it has ramifications though, and trump paid a high price. Funny, some refuse to learn from his example.

From: RMhunter
18-Jan-21
Thanks habitat for your honest answer. I also voted for Trump both times even though I don't care for him as a person. I just was wondering what the guys that voted for Biden reasons were other than not liking Trump. Policies in particular?

From: 70lbdraw
18-Jan-21
"I just was wondering what the guys that voted for Biden reasons were other than not liking Trump. Policies in particular?"

When you find an answer let us know. At this point in time, i can't help but wonder if the lefties on this site even have any integrity when it comes to hunting, or anything else they do In their everyday lives. I can't help but picture them wandering around in the woods with ear plugs, blinders, and a ball gag in their mouth.

From: cubdrvr
18-Jan-21

From: TrapperKayak
18-Jan-21
RM, I've never gotten an answer to that question on here, from anyone who voted for Biden, even though I've eluded to it several times. JMO, I can't imagine why anyone on here would vote for him based on policy.

From: Jaquomo
18-Jan-21
Would make a cool comic book for required reading in public schools!

From: trublucolo
18-Jan-21
Too bad Pat doesn't get paid by the word. Meanwhile, still waiting with bated breath like others here for what the response is to "I just was wondering what the guys that voted for Biden reasons were other than not liking Trump. Policies in particular?" Other than Biden stealing some of the programs Trump already had in place, I'm not seeing much to like about the looming Biden / Harris pResidency.

From: Ziek
18-Jan-21
It was enough to see the striking parallels of the last 5 years with Germany in the 1930s, starting with the assault on the press. The nazis' "lying press" with Trump's "fake news". Fascism always looks the same; starting with that assault, continuing with false nationalism, outrageous lies, and finally a coup attempt. It's a good thing Trump wasn't any better a politician than he was a businessman, and gameshow host.

18-Jan-21
From conversations I have had with my left of center friends, a common theme emerges of why many voted for Biden.

Simply in their view, we are at a point of great economic inequality in America. The elitists, whether from the right or left, are gaining wealth while most others are in a downward spiral. Trump was becoming too distracted by personal issues, everything became about him instead of the reasons the people elected him. So, try another approach that gets the focus back on the inequality.

This is the view that has been shared with me. I know Biden's approach will make things worse, but a majority of our countrymen are suffering from fatigue and looking for quicker results. I get that the dems provided the most distractions and roadblocks, too bad trump's personal behavior played nicely into their power hungry hands. And, the inequity in wealth is a real problem that will continue to divide the country and threaten our survival. I am not wise enough to know how to tackle this in a manner that will relieve pressure quick enough to calm our country. We really need leadership that can rise above at this point.

From: trublucolo
18-Jan-21
All kicked off with a failed coup attempt by the democrats back in 2016, but don't let details cloud your judgment Ziek. Edited.

From: Rupe
18-Jan-21

Rupe's Link
Flathead, to be considered a dead thread days or weeks or months or even years would have passed. Lastly it was not a unanimous Pa SC decision. Just another outright lie in your storied history of lies. It was a 4-3 decision with a bipartisan vote of that included 1 Democrat and 2 Republicans. The 4 Other votes were all Democrats...nothing “bipartisan” or “unanimous” about it, but since when did facts matter to you???

“ The Pennsylvania Democratic Party sued their own – bringing a lawsuit against the Democratic Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Kathy Boockvar.

State Democrats sought a three-day extension for mail-in ballots, making valid all ballots postmarked by November 3 and received by November 6 at 5:00 p.m.

The case was submitted to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court on September 8. According to Ballotpedia.org, “five judges on the court were elected in partisan elections as Democrats, one judge was elected as a Republican, and one judge was appointed by a Democratic governor.”

On September 18 a decision was handed down by the state high court. The 4-3 decision overruled the requirement for mail-in ballots to be received by Election Day – allowing them to be received up to three full days later.

The decision trampled the bipartisan legislation the Pennsylvania General Assembly enacted just one year earlier according to their constitutional prerogative to enact statutes.

In addition to allowing for the mail ballot extension, the Keystone State’s high court nearly bastardized the need for a postmark, ruling that ballots “received within this period that lack a postmark or other proof of mailing, or for which the postmark or other proof of mailing is illegible, will be presumed to have been mailed by Election Day unless a preponderance of the evidence demonstrates that it was mailed after Election Day.”

Trublucolo, you’re spot on, but it’s hard to resist smacking them around with facts and watching them try and spin it. Just like how flathead turns a 4 to 3 partisan decision into a unanimous bipartisan decision. The man has no scruples.

18-Jan-21
Trax,

Your BS gets old. Left of center does not mean a total socialist or communist always, they can be simply a person that allows for greater government involvement than I am comfortable with. People with limited intellectual capacity only see everything as black or white.

Who is lying is the guy with the false registration-you! And that is what many of us are tired of from the dumb, blind hero worshippers...your ability with a straight face to accuse everyone else of exactly what you are guilty of. If you don't get it, that's another reason people grew tired of trump, his inability to look in the mirror.

Tell us again about our need to worry about censorship while sites like this will censor anyone spewing left wing propaganda that registered with false information, yet you get away with it.

I am starting to agree with George Friedman who once opined that anonymity not be allowed on the internet. We are guaranteed free speech, not anonymous speech. Knowing who you are would help a lot with understanding the same garbage you constantly spew. I am convinced you have been a person in a position of authority that is used to telling others what and how to think, probably an agent for some government entity. Am I close?

From: KSflatlander
18-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
“The Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled unanimously that a suit brought by Rep. Mike Kelly and other Republicans challenging the state’s mail-in voting law — passed in October 2019 — was filed too long after the law was passed, and because of that, rejected a requested review of the law.”

How many mail in votes were received after November 3rd in Pennsylvania? How many votes did Biden beat Trump by in Pennsylvania? Magnitude of 10...

From: Stix
18-Jan-21
Can we all agree on one thing,...........

Nothing good ever comes out of the toxicity on these threads.

From: trublucolo
18-Jan-21
Seriously Ziek - "starting with the assault on the press", your revisionist history would fail a smell test in a septic tank. The meltdown in the Obama/Biden propaganda media in regards to Trump started the day he ended up as last man standing in the primary, well before election night when your girl got her ass handed to her. Then the media spent the next four years in the gutter, exposing their true colors for anybody who wasn't in a coma, and unaware of their bias to start with.

Outrageous lies...hehehe; where to start with the 0bama- Biden administration...passage of the healthcare bill is a good place to start, the 2016 democrat primary would be another great place to start if you live in an alternate reality. The 2020 Democrat platform is another great place if you're looking for liars, Biden hasn't even been sworn in yet and he's lying about his lies. People lose all credibility on the issue if Trump's lies were the reason they voted for Biden/Harris and their lies. 1930's Germany? Really? What sounds like Nazi Germany is Democrats weaponizing the IRS to target conservatives. What sounds like Nazi Germany is democrats believing their base is stupid enough to buy that Benghazi was over a youtube video.

18-Jan-21
There were no reasons to vote for Biden except the voter who did, didn’t like Trump.

I’ve read in the past were bowsite’ers explained their reasonings for not liking him so, therefore we’re unwilling to vote for him. For some it was Science. For others it was their rationalization he was a nazi wannabe. Etc...., Whether that be true or not, it was so in their mind. Which leads me to believe intelligence isn’t defined by rationalization. It’s defined by choosing the option that yields the best results.

Words of intellect don’t need to to contain reasoning of the imp degree. Nor does intelligence get expressed in wordy posts. It gets expressed in results. It’s that simple. Every person alive reasons the results of their actions. And for their own personal self, decides if it offsets the potentially negative affects of choosing it over another option.

It’s the ignorant among America that did so out of emotions. Not those that decided it was as simple as picking the candidate that offered the best potential for a favorable result.

From: KSflatlander
18-Jan-21
WV- The majority of Americans disagreed with you in 2016 and 2020.

My policy reasons to vote for Biden:

Energy- I support the “all the above” for energy solutions. I support further investment in renewables. I support energy efficiency stands in the Biden policies.

Taxes- I agree with the Biden proposal for increasing personal income tax on those making over $400K. I agree the corporate tax rate should be higher for large corporations but not small businesses.

Education- I think college should be free for low income kids. Also increased investment in trade schools. I think we need more ways to decrease income inequality but providing more avenues to break the low income cycle.

Environment- I agree with reversing some of the environmental deregulation that Trump did. Deregulation just for deregulation is a bad policy IMO. Some do need to be re-examined. However, for those hunters think deregulation is always good then let’s start with you. Let deregulate hunting and eliminate all hunting regs. No seasons, no tags, no license requirements. If you are conservative then deregulation is good. Well you go first.

2nd Amendment- I do not think the solution to gun violence is more guns. I also don’t believe that taking all guns away from law abiding citizens is a solution either. But I’m ok with discussing the limits of the 2nd Amendment if it means stopping just one school shooting. All Constitutional Amendments have limits and so does the 2nd. IDK but nothing off the table with me to stop one more innocent child being killed in a school shooting. If it means that I only have a clip that hold 9 bullets instead of 30 then I’m ok with that.

Science- I seen a war on science with Trumps appointments to the DOE and DOI. We stray to far from science on our decision making tree then any crazy propaganda are possible solutions. And it was with Trump.

Social justice- I stand with LBTGQ+ and their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I am 100% agreement with the right of gay Americans to marry and enjoy the same legal rights that come with it.

Rhetoric- I felt Trump was divisive and dangerous with his rhetoric. I too could felt a hint of fascism in his words. The proud boys and white nationals are not aligned with the left. With that said, Antifa and the likes are just as dangerous but I didn’t hear the same dog whistles to them from Biden as I did Trump. Trumps constant barrage of minimizing and marginalizing minorities and being the source of America’s problems is dangerous. His attack to bring distrust on the CIA/FBI, education, media, and science sounded like fascism to me. His solution to left “fake news” was even faker alt-right “news” and conspiracy theories (QAnon).

Lastly, the habitual pathological lying was too much. All politicians spin and lie but Trump was on a whole different level. But the constant blatant lies were too much. That’s not a Biden policy thing but it still greatly influenced my decision.

These are some of the reason I voted for Biden over Trump. You can dismiss and ridicule my reasons but you asked.

This is my last post on this thread so I won’t be accused of always wanting the last word.

Flame away.

18-Jan-21
"I also am not registered with false information."

Your name is not SZ. So you lie again.

I never claim to be anything special, let alone a god. Just have the whatever to stand up to blowhards like yourself. Period.

Can't wait to read the responses to Ryan's reasons. No doubt most of it will be nothing but insults about blind dumb sheep, creepy Joe, mattress queen, the cabal etc. You know it by now, the rantings of a person with the emotional maturity of about 12.

From: Jaquomo
18-Jan-21
The only response I have to Ks's post is that corporations don't pay taxes. Any increase in corporate tax is passed on to the consumer, often lower income consumers who are least able to absorb the increases, and by cost reductions (offshoring, etc..). And small businesses who rely on larger companies for goods and services are also affected. So the promise of "not raising taxes on anyone making less than $400K a year" is patently false if corporate taxes are raised.

18-Jan-21
Frank, to answer you,

Everyone supports diversity in energy. Even Trump.

College has become the new high school. Yep, that’s what the federal government needs to do since they already own a high percentage of student debt to date. Go ahead and raise everyone’s taxes to make sure we get another million Bachelor of Arts graduates every year. Working at Burger King, living off welfare as well, to subsidize their lack of opportunity and skill level.

If the government actually used the program we have to monitor gun purchases, we’d stop a lot of unwanted people from every purchasing from FFL dealers. Plus, a society as free as our has negatives. Plenty of people have died to ensure future generations get to live with those offsets. I’m not about to suggest humans have evolved to the point we can out legislate that scenario. We’ve went backwards. Morality is defined by people who have lost site of its definition given to us by the God of the Bible. So, excuse me if I don’t care to have their ideas of pounded down my throat.

Raising taxes on what would be a large percentage of small business comprising that income bracket will only hurt those business’s, the jobs market, the economy, and the consumer.

The science statement is a joke. There hasn’t been one detriment to this administrations environmental policies. Unless you are a green energy person by heart and don’t like fair markets.

Social justice is also better right now then it’s ever been. Seems like anyone who doesn’t have an agenda to give gays, lesbians, bisexuals, trans sexual and whatever sector demanding special treatment, sees that. “It’s a do your thing but, don’t declare I owe you special treatment for that decisions,” kinda deal with straight folk. Same as married heterosexual couples don’t demand recognition for their decisions. Shut up about special consideration. It’s stupid and unwarranted.

The rhetoric could have been curved. Probably should have been curved. But, was nothing more then a response to the left, MSM, and butt hurt conservatives because he didn’t lay down and take it like a dog. He comes off to me as a egotistical guy. But, when left unbagered about his family, life, previous life, unwarranted charges of treason, his approach to policy and his role was diplomatic to say the least. Not making an excuse, only stating why it happened.

So, that’s my reality. Based on actual events. And, aside from the rhetoric section, based solely on actual facts of each situation.

From: trublucolo
18-Jan-21
Thanks Ryan, As far as the rhetoric coming out of our Capitol, I think it's reprehensible from any of our elected officials, Trump included- probably more so. I like to think it's the liberal democrat in him, that he self identified as before he ran on a republican ticket. His camp failed him in that regard, or else he simply failed to put common sense ahead of his ego.

No one representing America on the world stage or here at home should come across as crass as Trump did at times. He failed to stay above the fray when he needed to and I cringed whenever he opened his mouth on some things, but I didn't vote for him to be a snake oil salesman like Biden or 0bama. The rhetoric from the left has been equally as disastrous in precipitating incidents resulting in loss of lives as far as I'm concerned.

Trump succeeded in some aspects where his predecessors failed miserably, the middle east/ Israel peace agreements and some of his work initiatives in the inner cities come to mind but have been glossed over by democrats and the media. I like his SC appointees, a deciding factor as much as it was anybody but Hillary for me back in 2016.

No new wars and withdrawing from 0bamas bargain with Iran was a plus in my opinion. Stopping the welfare funding to the UN, WHO, the Paris Climate Accord and NATO was a plus while it lasted. NATO needs to learn to stand on it's own two legs in some areas, the war hawks critical of Trump for reducing our role were pissed more about not being center stage than anything. No worries there now though, Biden/Harris will have the American tax payer back in the role of being the worlds biggest slush fund in short order.

Pushing back against some of the China trade agreements in an attempt to reach a more balanced playing field was long overdue, we'll see how that pans out down the road. Not holding China responsible for COVID will be a failure laid at the feet of the incoming administration, not Trumps. A reset in the NAFTA arena was a plus, but I'm disappointed Trump and congress once again failed to significantly address immigration issues. There's a lot more pluses and negatives but it's been a long day.

In 2020 I voted for Trump again, not because I felt he was a stellar human being, but due to the fact that Biden has been in politics for 40+ years, and has failed to accomplish anything significant other than his crime bill, which probably did more damage to blacks and their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than anything Trump ever did to deprive the LGBTQ+ community of theirs. Not that I think that Biden will be around to fulfill his term though. Kamala is going to be more of a disaster than Biden could ever intentionally be.

From: RMhunter
18-Jan-21
I will also add this, I'm a ole mountain boy raised in the Appalachian mountains in a prominently white are but 20 years ago I met my beautiful wife who happened to be African American. 8 years later we married and now have 4 beautiful biracial children. Trump gets alot of blame for the divide in this country and I wish he would have said more at times to be more inclusive of every race, but Obama caused more racial divide than anyone in my lifetime. And I'm sure the Biden/Harris administration will do much of the same. Anytime you put one race above the other you cause division. Why can't we just be Americans instead of worrying about skin color. My wife wasn't a slave nor was I a slave owner

From: TrapperKayak
19-Jan-21
Zeik, with every pkzt you make, you prove to us all your total ignorance and,bias, esp.. the comparison to Nazi Germany. I'm not being mean by saying that, I called out KS for a similar post, but your are just plain......well, IGNORANT, BLIND AND STUPID in your assessment of Trump. He IS an egotistical loudmouth and he should shut up sometimes, but he did more good for this nation in 4 yrs that YOU could in a lifetime , or me too for that matter. I have done absolutely squat compared to him for our country, and I have worked for the Fed. for over 30 yrs. There, I broke my own rule.

From: Tonybear61
19-Jan-21
My Dad was a truck driver for most of his adult life in addition to being a bowhunter. I had a sister living in Delaware early 1970s. I still remember how a certain Senator treated a truck driver who was involved with an accident and killed Biden's first wife and child. Seriously injuring Hunter. From some reports Biden's wife ran a stop signal before she was hit by the truck.

While I was quite young I remember hearing about how Biden blamed the trucker (Mr.Donn) and pushed a false story that he had liquid lunches and was drunk at the time. My Dad didn't appreciate the label of all truckers and my sister caught it all on the news locally. It wasn't that long ago Biden was still spreading the lie and was called out on it. Ultimately having to apologize to the Donn family as the trucker had passed away. Add this to the lies about his college records, accomplishments in 47 years you pretty much have a picture of someone who should not even be in politics much less a president.

From: Orion
19-Jan-21
ks flatlander they are magazines not clips, your post also shows you don't know how taxes work. I would also like to know who is paying for that "free" college?

From: 3rd Degree
19-Jan-21
Not sure why we are still having this debate. Most of us should be packing so ir families are ready for the re education camps. AOC is getting her list of political opponents together, and a lot of the left and big tech are talking about. But we are the ones compared to the Nazi's. That is a sure sign that they want unity.

I think, that alone speaks volumes on what the agenda actually is, and who is for preserving our country, and who is for turning our country.

From: Will
19-Jan-21
KS's answer is basically the answer I'd have laid out.

I'd add that I think Nationalistic Populist approaches to leadership, are basically 1.) anti leadership; 2.) anti expertise; 3.) pre - fascist; 4.) dumb.

Frankly, I'm not a fan of Populism from the left either for many of the same reasons.

Leading in that way results in a leader chasing the populace rather than actually leading. The goal ought to be to push the populace towards something better, to grow, to improve. Populism sounds like that, by causing people to feel like the leader "feels their pain" and "gets them"... when in fact, they are just enjoying being powerful.

You dont solve hyper complex national/international issues involving nearly uncountable inputs and outputs with an approach to governing which ditches scientific or legal reasoning strategies.

I have opinions about the economy, taxation, 2nd Amendment, equality, public land use, education etc. Some are more educated than others. But they are no place near the knowledge, gained via scientific/legal reasoning in those areas, by actual experts.

Anecdote, sometimes is right, but more often (there is evidence to this) it's not. Our brains are super at filling in the gaps to believe something, in fact, is correct despite the evidence showing it's not. When a leader who chooses a populist approach lets anecdote drive decisions, they are factually making choices both further away from reality and which stand a higher chance to lead to a poor outcome.

Now, just for giggles, say in 5 years Ben Sasse is President, the senate is still blue but house red. I'd disagree with many of his opinions and ideas... But because he was making decisions based on expertise and sound reasoning, I could trust the choices as having some good footing - whether I agreed or not.

Currently I'm dealing with a guy as President who thinks social media rumors are sound things to base massive decisions on. I'm dealing with a President who felt his only proof needed to state things were his version of fact, was to note: "they are saying". That's not good enough for the leader of the free world. The President of the US, using sourcing in his decision making and public statements which would not pass muster in an 8th grade term paper due to it's legitimacy being vacant, is not good enough.

So there is my add on to the general points KS noted for why I couldn't vote for Trump. Populism, just isn't my jam. I can accept, that some decisions are complex, not easy to hear/what I want to hear, nor easy to understand and fairly deep in nuance. Other people know a lot more than me.

And I'm sure you guys will let me know most of the board here knows more over the next few posts! :) ha ha ha!

From: grizz
19-Jan-21
I think it will play out like this: Harris steps down, Obama BinBiden appoints Hillary VP ( because he knew no one would support a ticket with that scum on it) , BinBiden then resigns. Poof, communists rejoice.

Get ready. If you voted for this, hope you catch the worst of it. I believe it’s been the plan from day one.

From: Rupe
19-Jan-21
Flathead, 2 different issues. The 4-3 ruling was the bastardization of that law to allow voting past election days, no signature required, no post mark. The egregious fraud decisions came after. Again you have no clue what you’re talking about.

Lastly on the minor issue you point out that happened a year before the election and was an administrative ruling based on late filing. Nothing to do with the merits of the case.

But not surprised you twisted a story from Leftwing nut job Vox to make your case. The fraud changes passed 4-3. Anything else was just moot.

From: TrapperKayak
19-Jan-21
Good Lord grizz, I was having a pretty decent evening until I read that...now I feel like I'm gonna puke. I felt better when my wife told me a little while ago that the WalMart I went into today just reopened after having been closed for 3 days after having 28 cases of COVID in their staff. GAGGGGG. HRC as pres!!!! Shoot me now with the ammo hoarded from said WM, which was completely OUT OF STOCK...

From: grizz
19-Jan-21
Sorry Trapper, but you had to know that Biden wasn’t smart enough to get this far on his own. Saw today where his new environmental team said that global warming is caused by systemic racism. Yep, we’re in good hands now.

19-Jan-21
I’m seriously convinced if our election process is not revised and solidified, there will never be another president not approved by those that share the agenda of the left.

From: grizz
19-Jan-21
WV, I think we have seen the last legitimate election in this country and it wasn’t this one. It is painfully obvious the democrats are hell bent on destroying all opposition, especially conservatives.

From: Scrappy
20-Jan-21

Scrappy's embedded Photo
Scrappy's embedded Photo
This pic says it all.

From: Rocky D
20-Jan-21

From: woodguy65
20-Jan-21
"I have opinions about the economy, taxation, 2nd Amendment, equality, public land use, education etc. Some are more educated than others. But they are no place near the knowledge, gained via scientific/legal reasoning in those areas, by actual experts."

WILL - That all sounds great but...Who are the experts and legal minds that you trust on gun control? The problem is that everything is politicized and one side controls 90% of the media which then pushes the "scientific" narrative to the masses. There is every statistic you can imagine put out by the left - with respect to guns - most are completely biased and false to push gun control.

Who are the experts and legal minds you trust on man made global warming? You lean left so Im sure you gobble that right up. But so many of the "scientist" have been later found to falsify their data to get the outcome. Many studies that are done at Universities are funded by left wing groups. How come the only experts we ever get to see on TV are ones that push the global warming? There are MANY PHD scientist that dispute much of the leftist man made global warming studies.

Who are the experts and scientist that you trust on race? I live in Illinois, every week there are 20-30 people shot on the south side of Chicago, they are 99% AA's. Its been going on since 1970. Democrats control 100% of the city for the past 40 years, and the State for the past 20 years. Yet nobody talks about it and when they do - the answer is to take my guns away in rural southern Illinois.

They say we need to actually talk about this problem, but when we do, we don't give the answers they want to hear. You know like having a father in the HH, staying in school, don't get pregnant, learn how to speak english, get involved with a local church, volunteer at places, work a minimum wage job, don't kill people, things like that. But the retort back is - Those are white privilege ideas! They respond back - we just need to throw more money at the situation - your not listening to the experts!

From: TrapperKayak
20-Jan-21
Racism = Global warming. Not!! Because the more dark skinned people there, the more heat is absorbed here on earth. Not much heat is absorbed by my lasty white ass...My albedo score is very high., (Albedo is a measure of brightness due to reflection of sunlight.)

From: Huntcell
20-Jan-21
Busy first afternoon, as the Make America Last begins!!!!

As sleepy Joe stops border wall oil pipeline, advanced muslim immigration , Mexican and central american immigration. Cancels some student debt, pays for foreign abortion among other executive orders.

Only the beginning of his cow towing to the globalist.

“It doesn't matter if your vote counts, it matters who counts the votes!” Joseph Stalin/ Joseph Biden

From: TrapperKayak
20-Jan-21
pasty....not lasty. Hope you made out well financially the last four years, and saved it up to pay for your next 4-8 years of taxes.

From: Shiloh
20-Jan-21
If global warming gets dismissed as silliness so goes the government money put out to the scientist and universities to study it. Do you really think that the ones receiving the grants are going to ever say that this isn't an issue?? I think not. Follow the money. It will lead you to the truth every time!!!

20-Jan-21
I am hoping for a new party to emerge. One that is centrist, inclusive, and patriotic to America. The dem/socialists, and current establishment republicans, have failed.

From: DaleT
20-Jan-21
"If global warming gets dismissed as silliness so goes the government money put out to the scientist and universities to study it. Do you really think that the ones receiving the grants are going to ever say that this isn't an issue?? I think not. Follow the money. It will lead you to the truth every time!!!" So, I guess it would follow that results of government funded research could never be accepted as factual (unless, of course, it said: isn't an issue) because they would be tainted by $$$$ - interesting thought process, I would guess you have not spent much time in research

20-Jan-21
The "follow the money trail" argument is also used by anti-hunting groups about the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen, but isn't assuming all money trails lead to negative places a knock against capitalism?

From: Matt
20-Jan-21
"The only response I have to Ks's post is that corporations don't pay taxes. Any increase in corporate tax is passed on to the consumer, often lower income consumers who are least able to absorb the increases, and by cost reductions (offshoring, etc..). And small businesses who rely on larger companies for goods and services are also affected. So the promise of "not raising taxes on anyone making less than $400K a year" is patently false if corporate taxes are raised."

Corporations do pay taxes. While they will likely pass the cost onto consumers, it will not be in the form of a tax but rather an increase in the price of goods/services. Your post has some truth in the middle but leads and finishes with statements that are, as you put it, "patently false".

From: Jaquomo
20-Jan-21
Dale, I have a good friend, now recently deceased, who was considered one of the top atmospheric scientists in the world. His team was the preeminent hurricane prediction team across the globe for several decades. He and his team have published many, many peer-reviewed papers on anthropogenic climate change, testified before Congress, etc..

All that changed in the mid-90s after the IPCC gained traction. Over time, their grants dried up, their evidentiary studies were removed and excluded from IPCC reports, and they were effectively blacklisted. All because their studies didn't follow lockstep with the Gore/Mann theory that anthropogenesis is the strongest factor, and most other contributors should be discounted. They acknowledged the human-contribution, but produced strong evidence, data-driven, showing that much of the so-called causation is far less than the PC models produced by folks who value their grants. The grant gravy train is a self perpetuating cycle.

From: DaleT
20-Jan-21
Lou - I agree that SOMETIMES the "grant gravy train" - is real. My issue comes with people perpetuating positions that everything is black or white (as with the post I was responding to) when most are some shade of gray. I have published many peer-reviewed articles and currently make my living by peer-reviewing pharmaceutical candidate safety studies. My integrity (like the vast majority of my science colleagues) can't be bought.That doesn't mean we always get it right the first time (i.e. mask wearing helps or doesn't help) but real scientists are always open to the interpretation of new data and how that impacts (positively or negatively) our initial interpretation.

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