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Contributors to this thread:
JSW 21-Dec-20
Scoot 21-Dec-20
Stix 21-Dec-20
Jaquomo 21-Dec-20
Stix 21-Dec-20
Bowbender 21-Dec-20
Empty Freezer 21-Dec-20
Bowfreak 21-Dec-20
Bowbender 21-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 21-Dec-20
Old School 21-Dec-20
Trial153 21-Dec-20
DNEWER 21-Dec-20
JSW 21-Dec-20
Jaquomo 21-Dec-20
IdyllwildArcher 21-Dec-20
Matt 21-Dec-20
coelker 21-Dec-20
Jaquomo 21-Dec-20
JohnMC 21-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 21-Dec-20
Missouribreaks 21-Dec-20
TD 21-Dec-20
Missouribreaks 21-Dec-20
JSW 21-Dec-20
jstephens61 21-Dec-20
Woods Walker 21-Dec-20
Bowfreak 21-Dec-20
JohnMC 21-Dec-20
LINK 21-Dec-20
KSflatlander 21-Dec-20
Supernaut 21-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 21-Dec-20
KSflatlander 21-Dec-20
RK 21-Dec-20
Missouribreaks 21-Dec-20
KSflatlander 21-Dec-20
Woods Walker 21-Dec-20
KSflatlander 21-Dec-20
Missouribreaks 21-Dec-20
Woods Walker 21-Dec-20
joehunter 21-Dec-20
Old School 21-Dec-20
70lbdraw 21-Dec-20
KSflatlander 21-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 21-Dec-20
Tate 21-Dec-20
Jaquomo 21-Dec-20
Bowfreak 21-Dec-20
JohnMC 21-Dec-20
Tate 21-Dec-20
Treeline 21-Dec-20
Matt 21-Dec-20
Tate 21-Dec-20
Jaquomo 21-Dec-20
Tate 21-Dec-20
midwest 21-Dec-20
JohnMC 21-Dec-20
Ermine 21-Dec-20
TD 21-Dec-20
trophyhill 21-Dec-20
No Mercy 22-Dec-20
Brotsky 22-Dec-20
Tate 22-Dec-20
Tate 22-Dec-20
Tate 22-Dec-20
JayZ 22-Dec-20
JohnMC 22-Dec-20
Jaquomo 22-Dec-20
Tate 22-Dec-20
IdyllwildArcher 22-Dec-20
Tate 22-Dec-20
Jaquomo 22-Dec-20
DiRTY MiKE 22-Dec-20
KSflatlander 22-Dec-20
huntnmuleys 22-Dec-20
grossklw 22-Dec-20
huntnmuleys 22-Dec-20
TD 22-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 22-Dec-20
Brotsky 22-Dec-20
Will 22-Dec-20
Jaquomo 22-Dec-20
Tate 22-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 22-Dec-20
HDE 22-Dec-20
Treeline 22-Dec-20
wilhille 22-Dec-20
Skippy 22-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 22-Dec-20
KSflatlander 22-Dec-20
Jaquomo 22-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 22-Dec-20
TD 22-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 22-Dec-20
Tate 22-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 22-Dec-20
bucman 22-Dec-20
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JSW 22-Dec-20
timberdoodle 22-Dec-20
KSflatlander 22-Dec-20
Tate 22-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 22-Dec-20
RK 22-Dec-20
Jaquomo 22-Dec-20
Treeline 22-Dec-20
JL 23-Dec-20
Glunt@work 23-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 23-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 23-Dec-20
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Jaquomo 23-Dec-20
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Snuffer 23-Dec-20
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Grey Ghost 23-Dec-20
bigswivle 23-Dec-20
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Pete In Fairbanks 23-Dec-20
krieger 23-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 23-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 23-Dec-20
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TD 23-Dec-20
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Will 23-Dec-20
krieger 23-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 23-Dec-20
Will 23-Dec-20
JSW 23-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 23-Dec-20
Will 23-Dec-20
Tate 23-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 23-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 23-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 23-Dec-20
TD 23-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 23-Dec-20
Treeline 23-Dec-20
Grey Ghost 23-Dec-20
lawdy 23-Dec-20
Tate 23-Dec-20
lawdy 23-Dec-20
lawdy 24-Dec-20
Tate 24-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 24-Dec-20
Tate 24-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 24-Dec-20
Dale Hajas 24-Dec-20
Bowbender 24-Dec-20
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elkster 24-Dec-20
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elkster 24-Dec-20
WV Mountaineer 24-Dec-20
Grasshopper 25-Dec-20
Jaquomo 25-Dec-20
Bowbender 25-Dec-20
JulianT 26-Dec-20
Glunt@work 26-Dec-20
Dale Hajas 26-Dec-20
Stix 02-Jan-21
Stix 02-Jan-21
Stix 02-Jan-21
Stix 02-Jan-21
Stix 02-Jan-21
Stix 02-Jan-21
Stix 02-Jan-21
standswittaknife 02-Jan-21
Bowbender 02-Jan-21
Orion 02-Jan-21
Grasshopper 02-Jan-21
Scoot 02-Jan-21
Jaquomo 03-Jan-21
Stix 03-Jan-21
Jaquomo 03-Jan-21
Scoot 03-Jan-21
Bowbender 03-Jan-21
standswittaknife 03-Jan-21
Stix 03-Jan-21
standswittaknife 03-Jan-21
Pete In Fairbanks 03-Jan-21
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Jaquomo 03-Jan-21
trublucolo 03-Jan-21
orionsbrother 03-Jan-21
Stix 03-Jan-21
KSflatlander 03-Jan-21
Jaquomo 03-Jan-21
DiRTY MiKE 03-Jan-21
Stix 03-Jan-21
Bowbender 03-Jan-21
Scoot 03-Jan-21
Trial153 03-Jan-21
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Stix 03-Jan-21
WV Mountaineer 03-Jan-21
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Stix 03-Jan-21
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Stix 03-Jan-21
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Stix 03-Jan-21
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Stix 03-Jan-21
Stix 03-Jan-21
WV Mountaineer 03-Jan-21
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standswittaknife 04-Jan-21
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Jaquomo 04-Jan-21
Scoot 04-Jan-21
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KSflatlander 04-Jan-21
Missouribreaks 04-Jan-21
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Jaquomo 04-Jan-21
Stix 04-Jan-21
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trophyhill 04-Jan-21
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orionsbrother 05-Jan-21
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Stix 05-Jan-21
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Skippy 05-Jan-21
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Stix 05-Jan-21
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Jaquomo 05-Jan-21
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Scoot 05-Jan-21
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Stix 05-Jan-21
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Tate 07-Jan-21
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Stix 07-Jan-21
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Glunt@work 08-Jan-21
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Tate 08-Jan-21
Grasshopper 08-Jan-21
Jaquomo 13-Jan-21
From: JSW
21-Dec-20

JSW's Link
Backcountry Hikers and Anglers are proving that hunting is not even on their radar anymore. We all knew or at least suspected who they were but these past 4 years have made things perfectly clear. They were the only NP hunting organization to continually attack the Trump DOI. The most hunter friendly administration in the history of this country, by far, but according to BHA, they couldn't do anything right.

I am a member of BHA but will most certainly not be renewing my membership. I joined to figure out just what they stand for and now we know. They haven't met a leftist they didn't like and if you take the time to read their press release on Haaland to head DOI their true colors couldn't be more obvious. Any hunter who would praise this nomination deserves to lose the rights he will most certainly lose. Deb Haaland is not even remotely qualified for this position.

Deb Haaland sponsored a bill that would require us to re-import all the violent criminal illegals that have been legally removed from this country. She is so far left I can't believe she wasn't a member of the "squad". She supports the Green New Deal, which will destroy our economy and be the end of the Republic.

BHA is not for hunters. It seems that their primary focus is the destruction of the Oil, gas and mining industries, not hunting and fishing opportunities. They are without a doubt a green decoy and this should seal their fate with freedom loving hunters in this country.

From: Scoot
21-Dec-20
"BHA is not for hunters."

Anyone who argues this point must live in a cave and have no connection to information or the common sense to compute it. How anyone can argue otherwise at this point is pretty ridiculous. Flame away BHA lovers- you are delusional in your support, if you believe they are a hunter advocate.

From: Stix
21-Dec-20

Stix's embedded Photo
Stix's embedded Photo
I'm a life member since 2007.

Have a Merry Christmas fellas. Heading to Kelowna BC for the holiday. The lakes has 18" of ice, loaded with pike and walleyes, as well as the family's heated ice shed.

This is living. American politics is not.

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20
Well, they joined with all the major anti-hunting organizations, HSUS, Defenders of Wildlife, Earth Justice, Center for Biological Diversity, Sierra Club, and AOC in praising the choice of Haasland. Glad to see Backcountry Hikers and Anglers finally coming out of the closet and dropping the pretension. Their honesty is refreshing!

From: Stix
21-Dec-20
Forgot to mention, I make 2 trips/year to here. Spring bear and Christmas.

Thanks BC chapter for leading the charge to protect BC's spring bear season last year from an attack from the anti's.

From: Bowbender
21-Dec-20
Jim,

Not sure if it was Stix or one of the other BHA fluffers that said BHA will partner with non-traditional hunting groups in order to save our lands for future hunting. Not sure how partnering with the likes of Sierra Club helps hunting, but I guess this 59 year old aint "woke" enough to join with the IPA sippin', flat brim wearin' YouTubin' crew to "save" hunting.

21-Dec-20
I will not be renewing my membership. You would think by name alone the organization would be pro hunting. Beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing.

From: Bowfreak
21-Dec-20
If it walks like a duck....

From: Bowbender
21-Dec-20
"Thanks BC chapter for leading the charge to protect BC's spring bear season last year from an attack from the anti's."

Perhaps you could post a link to what "leading the charge" was? I could find no mention of it on BHA's British Columbia's Chapter page. And since they led this successful charge I would think they would post something about it.

21-Dec-20
The are a political tool of the left. Many here smelled that from word go. And, I do give JSW props for testing the waters. It simply verified the obvious.

The local chapters no doubt have great members. But, it’s a ploy. A simple ploy. National hands down nifty statements concerning conservation and land use but, the organization has repeatedly proved outside of regional memberships, it isn’t interested in that. Only political advancements of environmental policy that favors radical green movements. And, it’s the blind hunter member allowing it.

At this point I don’t know how that can be argued. Or even considered debatable. Because it simply is the facts of it.

From: Old School
21-Dec-20
Bowfreak - If it walks like a duck... the left says it’s a squirrel, nothing to see here, move along.

From: Trial153
21-Dec-20
Why getting attacked from Partisan Hacks a non-issue, especially from the same old hack.

Partisan Hack Someone who cares more about supporting a particular party or ideology than supporting what is morally right, or factually true.

You may be a partisan hack if: - the other side is to blame totally for all that is wrong in the country.

- you think its o.k. for judges to legislate from the bench as long as it coincides with your position.

- you won't admit the opposing party probably has as many good and as many bad ideas as your own favorite party.

From: DNEWER
21-Dec-20
But them Pint nights and public land owner t shirts are FIRE old son!

From: JSW
21-Dec-20
I guess I am a partisan hack. I support the free markets over socialism. I support constitutional judges of judicial activists. I support freedom of speech, our right to bear arms, freedom to assemble, freedom in general. All of those are under attack by one party. I will not support a party that does one thing right and 10 things wrong.

The democratic party has turned every place they control into a shithole, plane and simple. Show me one big city that has been under leftist rule for decades that isn't a shithole or well on it's way. Show me one state that has been under leftist rule for decades and I'll show you a failing state.

The Republicans aren't perfect but they aren't the ones trying to take your guns, end hunting, kill babies, totally control all aspects of your life from food, energy, travel, healthcare, you name it. Democrats are even openly talking about re-education camps for those who don't agree. They are the ones destroying the lives of workers who don't toe the line. Getting them fired for not complying. That's been going on for years now and it is purely evil at it's core.

I realize that those on the left are genetically unable to value the things that make this country great so it's the duty of those who believe in common sense and reality to defeat those who are ruled by emotions and feelings.

I'm not completely close minded. I would gladly debate any of these issues with anyone. I dare you to convince me that the government does anything better than the private sector. I'm sure there are a few but I'm not thinking of any right now.

It has become so black and white it really is good vs. evil, patriots vs. traitors. freedom vs tyranny. When you have to lie about your cause then your cause probably isn't worth supporting and the left lies about everything.

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20
Trial, which other organizations do you support that are aligned with all the biggest anti-hunting groups in the country?

In my book, if HSUS, Defenders of Wildlife, Earth Justice, and Center for Biological Diversity all applaud a political action, it is a MAJOR red flag. BHA joined right with them. That's not an attack, simply stating facts.

21-Dec-20
You can understand their viewpoint if you realize that their belief is that the number one threat to wildlife and wild places is from fossil fuel-caused global climate change and the number two threat is from development of wild places for industries (like mining).

The group is made up of hunters and anglers and they are not inherently anti-hunting/angling. They just have a different viewpoint on what's important to preserve them.

From: Matt
21-Dec-20
"It has become so black and white it really is good vs. evil, patriots vs. traitors. freedom vs tyranny. When you have to lie about your cause then your cause probably isn't worth supporting and the left lies about everything."

If telling the truth is the criterion for establishing the moral high ground, we can safely presume you didn't vote for Donald Trump?

From: coelker
21-Dec-20
Yeah. The BHA are truly environmental whack jobs that identify as hunters. Sorry but they have been out of whack with most hunters for over a decade and every chance they get, they get further and further out of whack.

Sorry but as mentioned Trump was likely the most pro hunting president we have seen in the 50 years and all BHA did was hammer the administration.

Now we have a clearly anti hunting DOI pick and they think that is great. BHA will never see a dollar from my family as long as they continue this path...

Hell STIX I like you, but can you show me all the effort BHA put into fighting the wolves in Colorado?

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20
Ike, correct. Which speaks to Jim's OP. I understand the viewpoints and priorities of AOC, Earth Justice, Defenders of Wildlife, Sierra Club, HSUS, and BHA, as well as RMEF, P&Y, B&C, RMBS, NRA, RMGO, etc.. I can choose which to support, and which side to fight against if they conflict with my core beliefs and pose a threat to my core values. I'm also free to speak out about them without any retribution except having posts pulled from certain bowhunting sites, Facebook, Twitter, passed over for promotions (if I had a job), having entire websites dedicated to ruining my life and getting me fired, and having my home picketed and vandalized by the tolerant, accepting, empathetic "people" who disagree with me.

Is this a great country, or what??!! Merry Christmas, to those who still celebrate it. Happy Kwanzaa to the Biden voters!

From: JohnMC
21-Dec-20
"you won't admit the opposing party probably has as many good and as many bad ideas as your own favorite party."

It is not about good or bad ideas. It is about ideology of the two parties. It is about should government be the end all be all and the bigger the better. Or should it be small and most stay out the way, not pick the winners and losers. Trial you should be able to see this more than anyone NY's mayor said this weekend "our mission is to redistribute wealth". That's not about good ideas or bad that about fundamentally changing what this country has been since it founding. It does exactly what Barack Hussein Obama said he wanted to do. It simple and become oh so simple to see it is about picking a free market or socialism.

Anyone who say differently is one of two things either they are dishonest or ignorant. You can't be a good egg all your life sooner or later you have to hatch or rot.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Dec-20
"It is about should government be the end all be all and the bigger the better. Or should it be small and most stay out the way......"

So, did Trump expand or shrink the size and scope of the federal government in terms of spending, deficits, and debt?

Matt

21-Dec-20
They are commies, hard to believe some hunters are that gullible.

From: TD
21-Dec-20
Has been said many times they have basically turned into Sierra Club Lite........

Seems they've even put on few pounds since then......

Backcountry Hikers and Fashionable Fishermen..... saw it happen with Sierra Club when they claimed to support hunters at first. But it seems having hunted isn't the same as being a hunter.

They always drift (grift?) to the easy money and hanging out (networking I think they call it) with the kids at the cool Orvis/LL Bean table in the cafeteria.....or boutique pub, whatever...... RMEF got caught up in those social circles a while back, but are working their way back to their core membership and goals. BHFF.... they are headed in the wrong direction, ..... that is if it's hunting you support. Locking arm and arm with the wrong people, people actively trying to eliminate hunting and constitutional rights.

But it's your money. Currently you can spend it how you like, I'm sure they have no moral conflict with taking it. Still somewhat a free country, but they're working on changing that. This lady up for appointment is working hard on changing that. You can put pretty candy sprinkles all over the top if it makes you feel better.... it's still a chit cone you're asking people to eat.

21-Dec-20
The APR is no different.

From: JSW
21-Dec-20
Trump reduced out of control regulations dramatically. Spending may have not gone down but he certainly shrunk the oppressive overreach of the government. I'm saddened that he didn't work on controlling the budget but in all things that matter, he kept his promises and did a good job at draining the swamp.

I rate success on results not rhetoric. More hunting opportunities, lower taxes, fewer regulations, higher stock market, no new wars, and above all else, he singlehandedly saved our right to bear arms. If Hillary had won, they only needed one vote to say our right to bear arms never even existed. Poof! Gone!

You can't argue that Trump got a lot of things done that could indeed make America great again. Sadly, I feel that all those gains will be lost in the coming months. And I don't believe for a minute that China Joe actually won the election. If they get away with it, we will never see a fair national election in this country again. Our Republic will be lost and so will everything that we hold dear.

From: jstephens61
21-Dec-20
I don’t know much about the BHA, but I can tell it’s a decisive organization. It seems to fall in line with the liberal playbook. When you can’t beat them head on, divide them up and take them out a little at a time.

We argue amongst ourselves constantly. Traditional vs compound vs crossbow. Hoyt vs Mathews vs Bowtech. You can say this is not divisible, but when it turns to name calling and personal attacks, we’re playing right into their hands.

I may not agree with how you hunt, where you hunt or what you hunt with, but I will defend and support your right to hunt.

I hope our country wakes up before it’s too late and realizes the road we’re headed down is the road to destruction. We must stand together as hunters and beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

From: Woods Walker
21-Dec-20
To further JSW's point............

The "Clown" In The White House:

The clown in the White House just brokered three Middle East Peace Accords, something that 71 years of political intervention and endless war failed to produce.

The buffoon in the White House is the first president that has not engaged us in a foreign war since Eisenhower

The clown in the White House has had the greatest impact on the economy, bringing jobs, and lowering unemployment to the Black and Latino population of ANY other president. Ever.

The buffoon in the White House has exposed the deep, widespread, and long-standing corruption in the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and the Republican and Democratic parties.

The buffoon in the White House turned NATO around and had them start paying their dues.

The clown in the White House neutralized the North Koreans, stopped them from developing a further nuclear capability, sending missiles toward Japan, and threatening the West Coast of the US.

The clown in the White House turned our relationship with the Chinese around, brought hundreds of businesses back to the USA.

The clown in the White House has accomplished the appointing of three Supreme Court Justices and close to 300 Federal Judges.

This same clown in the White House lowered your taxes, increased the standard deduction on your IRS return from $12,500 for Married Filing Joint to $24,400 and caused your stock market to move to record levels over 100 times, positively impacting the retirements of tens of millions of citizens.

The clown in the White House fast-tracked the development of a COVID Vaccine - it will be available within weeks - we still don't have a vaccine for SARS, Bird Flu, Ebola, or a host of diseases that arose during previous administrations.

The clown in the White House rebuilt our military which the Obama administration had crippled and had fired 214 key generals and admirals in his first year of office.

This clown in the White House uncovered widespread pedophilia in the government and in Hollywood and is exposing worldwide sex trafficking of minors and bringing children home to their families.

The clown in the White House works for free and has lost well over 2 billion dollars of his own money in serving - and done all of this and much more in the face of relentless undermining and opposition from people who are threatened because they know they are going to be exposed as the criminals that they are if he is re-elected.

I got it; you don't like him. Many of you utterly hate and despise him. How special of you. He is serving you and ALL the American people. What are you doing besides calling him names and laughing about him catching the China virus ?????

****And please educate me again as to what Biden has accomplished for America in his 47 years in office?****!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll take a 'clown' any day versus a fork tongued, smooth talking hypocritical corrupt liar. Please let it be known, I am not sure I would want to have a beer with him (if he drank, which he doesn't) or even be his friend. I don't care if I even like him.

I want a strong leader who isn't afraid to kick some ass when needed.

I don't need a fatherly figure - I already have one.

I don't need a liar - that's what Hollywood and CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS and the New York Times are for.

I don't need someone to help me, but I also don't want an obstacle or a demented, senile washed-up Swamp Monster.

God bless Donald Trump - the most unappreciated President in history.

From: Bowfreak
21-Dec-20
"If telling the truth is the criterion for establishing the moral high ground, we can safely presume you didn't vote for Donald Trump?"

The irony of anyone voting democrat because Trump is a liar and immoral is rich.

From: JohnMC
21-Dec-20
That puts a nice bow on it!

From: LINK
21-Dec-20
Who ever thought an organization that caters to granola munchers would not be left leaning.

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
WW- I see you didn’t give NvaGvUp credit for your post as you didn’t write it but pass it on like it’s your own. I think that’s plagiarism.

From: Supernaut
21-Dec-20
Great post Woods Walker!

From: Grey Ghost
21-Dec-20
Glad to see Kyle (NvaGvUp) still beating the drum, even though he tucked tail and ran from the Bowsite in disgrace.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
jsteph- did you just say we should say we should united as hunters then cast off 24,000 hunters and fishermen with BHA? Huh?

Keep narrowing down the hunting coalition...

From: RK
21-Dec-20
I Actually think some tried to disgrace NVAGVUP and it just was not worth fighting it. Who knows. If I was him I would have just told some of those want to be fools to go fornicate themselves. Water under the bridge now

If attacking the messenger is all you got flatlander then the message spoke volumes

21-Dec-20
Coalition, those hunters are against hunting. Yes, get them to hell out of the hunting fraternity, we do NOT need them, or any other liberal voting pretend outdoor people.

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
I got my new BHA magazine this week.

Sorry MB you don’t get to decide if I’m a hunter or not.

From: Woods Walker
21-Dec-20
Hey KS.....KISS MY A**!!!! He DID NOT write that. He passed it on just like I did. I know the truth of it aches your lying liberal heart, but deal with it if you can.

Besides, you're a Biden supporter, so what's the problem with plagiarism then? Gropin' Chinese Joe is an expert at it. Or does it not apply to Democrats?

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
I guess you and Joe have something in common.

21-Dec-20
Coalition, those hunters are against hunting. Yes, get them to hell out of the hunting fraternity, we do NOT need them, or any other liberal voting pretend outdoor people.

From: Woods Walker
21-Dec-20
Bullsh*t. This is where it came from...

https://www.unitedpatriotsofamerica.com/president-trump/the-clown-in-the-white-house.html

And they call on those to pass it on. I did.

From: joehunter
21-Dec-20
I burnt that "Public land owner" shirt a while back!

From: Old School
21-Dec-20
When you can’t argue or debate the facts - attack and smear the messenger. Great post WW.

From: 70lbdraw
21-Dec-20
"WW- I see you didn’t give NvaGvUp credit for your post as you didn’t write it but pass it on like it’’s your own. I think that’s plagiarism."

Careful there WW...keep speaking the truth and you'll also be labeled a racist. You certainly won't hear any sensible or intelligent counterpoints to your post from folks on the left side.

From: KSflatlander
21-Dec-20
Counterpoint- Trump is a one term president.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Dec-20
Let's be clear. It wasn't WW's words. While copy and paste is certainly an accepted form of communication on Internet forums, I find it intellectually lazy, and dishonest, if you don't make it clear that it's someone else's thoughts you are posting.

Matt

From: Tate
21-Dec-20
You folks south of the border make me and the rest of the world LAUGH with your incendiary politics.

First, The border is closed for non-essential travel, but open if you or your spouse have family in Canada. I believe the person traveling here mentioned something about family .

Second, even with all the talk of gun confiscation etc. up here, you can still buy ammo at any local sporting goods store that sells it. I have never seen such fear that the shelves are wiped clean by mindless people who have OCD and panic. Up here, clear minds prevail.

Third, and I admit I don't have all the details, the backcountry hunters sent out emails to all their followers asking for testimony and email writing campaigns to stop the spring bear hunt initiatives in a couple of provinces. It was successful, as they were dropped in the various ministries due to the public response.That's the way the backcountry hunters work, boots on the ground, grassroots campaigns.

I cannot believe that some folks would let one conniving man as your president, be the catalyst for such vitriol, and aggressiveness towards brother sportsmen. You folks should be ashamed of yourselves.

I am going to post this on the other thread also, since people seem to be going back and forth. I am so glad my work transferred me up here, living in peace of mind, not fear and panic.

The world is laughing at you.

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20
Why didn't BHA send out emails to all their followers to help stop the wolf forcing initiative here in CO? Something that will have a deep and permanent effect on HUNTING? Guys like you make me laugh.

From: Bowfreak
21-Dec-20
Tate,

If you think freedom loving Americans care what the rest of the world thinks you are sadly mistaken. When I hear lefties put down this country or President Trump it just makes me smile knowing his impact in 4 years was so significant.

What is better than Trump winning in 2016? Him winning in 2024.

From: JohnMC
21-Dec-20
Anyone that thought WW wrote that and was not just passing it on is low IQ...

Tate with due respect had Canadians acted a little more incendiary about their politics maybe you would have a more moderate government.

From: Tate
21-Dec-20
I cannot speak of anything in the states, only that someone here asked about info on how the group helped defeat the spring bear hunt stoppage movement. You can also ask some of the members there, but if there efforts were anything like here, they petitioned the ministry of natural resources to adhere to the science that the biologists presented. Sometimes that type of work is not generally advertised on hunting forums such as this, but done professionally in conjunction with all the prominent stakeholders. I am not a member, I just follow them on facebook, but they seem to do a good job organizing a campaign for their efforts. I will look up the Colorado facebook and websites to see if they took any action.

From: Treeline
21-Dec-20
The silence on the wolf issue from BHA was deafening...

I know several of the higher ups personally and tried to get them to make a stand on this issue.

Nothing.

I had high hopes for this organization. Unfortunately, the stands that it has made with respect to reducing hunting and fishing with National Monument designation, lack of support for our current administration’s policies that have been the greatest expansion of hunting and fishing since Teddy Roosevelt, refusing to stand with other hunting groups on the Colorado wolf issue, their lack of understanding of multiple use of public lands allowing them to stay public, lying about energy and mining exploration leases, and their continued support of absolutely horrible political policy has certainly changed my mind.

From: Matt
21-Dec-20
"The irony of anyone voting democrat because Trump is a liar and immoral is rich."

The comment was somewhat tongue in cheek in regards to the comment that current state of politics "...has become so black and white it really is good vs. evil, patriots vs. traitors. freedom vs tyranny. When you have to lie about your cause then your cause probably isn't worth supporting and the left lies about everything." The implication that the right - of which Trump is currently the highest ranking member - is some bastion of truth is not a compelling argument.

From: Tate
21-Dec-20
I am not against our government, Trudeau's father when in charge, oversaw an amendment to our constitution that made private property rights absolute. No more forced sale or what you americans call eminent domain. It was a big issue here in the 90's. And it was done without a 2nd amendment, or assault style rifles. Freedom rings true.

As far as your Colorado wolf initiative, with a quick glance I have seen on the Colorado bha facebook and websites that they published a mission statement against any ballot initiatives regarding wildlife conservation and urged their members and followers on facebook to vote against it. They called this ballot box conservation and it has no place and violates your north american model. I found this info without much effort

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-20
They did nothing in CO except issue a mushy statement consisting of doubletalk about wolf management plans, but never addressed the ballot initiative in front of them. I would cut and paste it for you but after reading it again, I wanted to vomit.

From: Tate
21-Dec-20
Ok very well. I had said I don't follow your local issue's. But I felt the need to respond after seeing some misinformation, being that travel is permitted here from US for family gatherings and that backcountry hunters did put forth a successful effort to stop the spring bear hunt cancellation in 3 provinces that I know of. Good day gentlemen, and Merry Christmas from the great white north.

From: midwest
21-Dec-20
"...even with all the talk of gun confiscation etc. up here, you can still buy ammo at any local sporting goods store that sells it."

Lucky you. Maybe if it were illegal to carry in the states, we'd have ammo, too.

From: JohnMC
21-Dec-20
Or if the government confiscated out guns I'd guess there would probably be a lot more ammo on the shelves here too. I only buy ammo for the guns I have...

From: Ermine
21-Dec-20
They are antis in Camo clothes

From: TD
21-Dec-20
WW's post nailed it. Thank you. And if anyone thought he wrote that they need to get out a bit more before somebody sells em some oceanfront property in AZ. It's been around some time. BTW, just for accuracy and facts.... I believe with Morocco it's 4 peace deals put together now. Many more and leftists will have to put the bong down to count em.....

But classic TDS. Ignore the actual winning as much as possible.... he hurt some crackpot "reporter" feelings or better yet, someone who makes millions pretending in their fantasy world they are someone/something else..... Time to really go on offense and attack who said it or how it was said. That's whats really important.

Good grief.

21-Dec-20
It’s been pretty obvious from the beginning that this organization are elitist activists who obviously are in bed with anti hunting groups. They are very good at suckering unknowing hunters into the organization. Akin to the National Wildlife Federation and their local state organizations. They appear hunter friendly until you do your homework and start pealing back the layers.

From: No Mercy
22-Dec-20
BHA sure helped save that BC Grizzly huh TATE? If you think we give one solid shit that a country with Justin Trudeau in charge is laughing at us you are sorely mistaken. Eat your granola, drink your soy latte and enjoy it while you can.

From: Brotsky
22-Dec-20
Why would anyone support BHA when you could give that money to RMEF, WSF (I have my own issues with this group), PnY, DU, PF, MDF, state bowhunting orgs, etc? You can still call yourself a “public landowner”, wear a flat brim, and drink double dry hopped hazy New England IPA’s out of your Yeti growler if you support organizations that support hunting.

From: Tate
22-Dec-20
I didn't vote for Justin Trudeau's party, but after his party won a majority in parliament, I recognize that he is the legitimate leader of our country and I throw my full support in him to be successful. I do not become a "sore loser". If he is successful, Canada is successful.

I am also concerned by the lack of civility amongst the US population that your current president creates. Anyone that has an opposing view is treated with aggression. It is very evident on this thread. It is truly an example of 'follow the leader'. His conduct at rallies and in speeches is very much reminiscent of historical Adolf Hitler footage.

The grizzly hunt you mention, had very little public support. The indigenous people did not even support it. It was a product of corporate interests, who usually cater to the wealthy, in most cases American trophy hunters.

True, our firearms regulations are more restrictive. I feel no less safer because of it, although when I have traveled to the US, I definitely feel less safer.

As far as the backcountry hunters, I am not a member, but I did find this piece on their website that highlights their accomplishments from the prior year. It's worth taking a look at. It is heavily weighted to US issues, but the group has a lot of young energy, which is our future. I am seriously thinking of joining as a life member. They give Kimber rifles and handguns as life member incentives. I also noticed from their website that they have corporate partners who are involved heavily in hunting. I see Leupold, Federal ammo, Savage, Vortex, Gerber, ON-X, Weatherby, Benchmade, Crispi, Danner. And that's a small portion.

I also see they now have 60,000 members in North America, and 400,000 followers on facebook. They also have collegiate chapters, who reach out to folks who have never hunted. How can that be bad.

I strongly advise that all of you involved in the vitriol I am reading to re-channel your energy for the good of hunting and fishing, and the unity of sportsmen.

From: Tate
22-Dec-20
https://www.backcountryhunters.org/2020_policy_roundup?utm_campaign=eoy_giving_2&utm_campaign=eoy_canada_20&utm_campaign=eoy_giving_2&utm_medium=email&utm_medium=email&utm_medium=email&utm_source=backcountryhunters&utm_source=backcountryhunters&utm_source=backcountryhunters

From: Tate
22-Dec-20

Tate's Link
https://www.backcountryhunters.org/2020_policy_roundup

Here is the link I mention

22-Dec-20
"I am also concerned by the lack of civility amongst the US population that your..."

It's not just our president, both parties share in this debacle. But your point is valid IMHO, and Trump did not learn that even though dems are equally to blame , People will always look to the person in charge to lead by example. He won on the issues; he, as well as many here, cannot grasp that like it or not personality matters when people go into the voting booth.

From: JayZ
22-Dec-20
Frank you're right. Biden didn't win, Trump lost. His personality is so divisive there were a ton of people that voted "not for him". Trump had 4 years to change that narrative. He didn't and it cost him.

It's amazing to see the number of grown men arguing on Bowsite.

22-Dec-20
Jason,

I agree. But you can predict the response here..."I don't care about his personality, blah, blah, blah..." They don't get that the majority do, and that's what counts.

Maryland's Governor, Hogan, he gets it IMO. Hopefully the Rs will figure it out before 2022 and 2024. Trump is not capable of changing, build on his ideas, but with a different person and we should be able to secure an easy victory. As bad as the far rights are at recognizing Trump is a losing proposition, the Ds don't recognize Americans are sick of identity politics. That fuels the division more in America IMHO than does Trump's extreme narcissism.

From: JohnMC
22-Dec-20
"I didn't vote for Justin Trudeau's party, but after his party won a majority in parliament, I recognize that he is the legitimate leader of our country and I throw my full support in him to be successful. I do not become a "sore loser". If he is successful, Canada is successful." Sometimes when something is F'd up as bad as our government as become it takes being a Ass Hole to fix it not a nice guy. George W great guy, nice guy would love have beer with him (he does not drink either). But he accomplished nothing. The media and democrat party did not spend 4 plus year try to destroy Trump with mostly lies because of his personality. They did it because they were afraid because he was destroying the status quo - the swamp.

That is just not accurate. I will tell you why if the Harris/Biden ticket is successful by their standards and the standards of those around them like AOC, Bernie, Pelosi just to name a few. United States will not be successful unless you call success somewhere between massive increase in taxes and size of government to full blown socialism. We don't want the "success" Canada has seen here. It looks awful.

" His conduct at rallies and in speeches is very much reminiscent of historical Adolf Hitler footage."

From your comment here it obvious you are not a guy that digs too deep for facts. I have been to two Trump rallies. To compare him to Hitler is plan stupid sounds like something that would come from someone like KSflatbrimmer or Ziek. Listen to what Trumps says it not about control. It is the opposite it has always been about get the government out the way so that people can succeed. Be it the US or Canada we need more folks like Trump in every party. Guys that where wildly successfully in the real world then wants to make a difference in their later years. Not lifelong politicians that some how become multi millionaires off a government salary that suggest that not possible. What has a Biden or Trudeau ever done in life to give you the least bit of convenience in them to lead a country?

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-20
Tate, where many of us divide on BHA is their policy of supporting only certain PC types of hunting while refusing to help hunters fight against other, very real threats to hunting. They are also a little too keen on locking up and changing access designations on public land, even if it means potentially losing the ability to hunt there.

And they cater to young hipsters and push for road closures which is fine, except the U.S. hunting population is aging at an alarming rate and the number of hunters dropping out far exceeds the young recruitment. Reasons for dropping out always include lack of reasonable access to hunting areas, especially closures of roads older hunters have used for decades. That's fine for young hipsters, but in 15 years when there are 30% fewer hunters, things may change drastically.

22-Dec-20
Lou,

We have this thread, and then another on how hunting land has become crowded due to COVID. One good thing about the virus is more people are being introduced to our passion. I am not a fan of vehicles being used to access our wild places. We should just accept that age limits us, instead we are behaving selfishly IMO. Pack animals OK, vehicles not IMHO.

Should we helicopter in the disabled? Where does it stop. Sorry, I know this is not popular but I see the demographic problem with license revenue maybe being only temporary as Baby Boomers die off. If more people are introduced to our passion because of things like COVID, which probably few predicted would have much affect on outdoor activities initially, in the long run things should work out.

States and others realize they need to court those latte drinkers, granola crunchers, flat brimmers etc. if they are going to keep things going in the short run. "Traditional" sources of revenue like hunters in the short run is becoming less dependable due to demographics, age of hunters. What is going on is just the realities. We need to quit complaining about it and enjoy every possible minute we have left, again IMHO.

From: Tate
22-Dec-20
Mr. Jaquomo, I respectfully disagree with your assessment on a solution to dwindling hunter numbers. Here is my take. True, folks are getting older and no longer have the ability to hunt. This number cannot be improved. Even if motorized travel was allowed in additional areas, It is only prolonging the inevitable. These hunters at some point will continue to drop off at some point due to age. On the other hand, there in a resource of new recruitable young people, who'd s number grows every day. They appreciate the solitude of roadless areas. If you are truly interested in hunter recruitment numbers, do you give this growing resource what they want to engage in this recreation, or do you pacify the retiring who eventually will not be a part of the fold? It's very simple, there are people who report problems for others to solve, and there groups such as bha that recognize the problem and develop a viable solution that the younger recruits, and mid aged hunters are in alignment with. That's why one of the biggest programs that backcountry hunters supports is staying in good physical shape to be able to engage in this activity.

I do have a suggestion for you all when I say to re-channel your energy into an activity that has enormous public support. Instead of supporting Trump in this frivolous attempt to change the election, I suggest that the same energy be used in a campaign to institute term limits for your legislators. From what I understand from American history, your legislators were envisioned to be part time, with having jobs outside the govt. The whole idea of career politicians is no different than the soviet politburo, north korean legislators, the venezuelan congress. they profess freedom but are beholden to their special interests that court them and allow them to stay in power. This is un-democratic.

This effort is widely supported by everyone I've been in contact with (except the politicians) and will result in long term positive changes. It will also get people lined up behind you and against the status quo an enable you to be able to win elections in the future.

22-Dec-20
Why all the hate for IPAs? This is beer we’re talking about here! :)

From: Tate
22-Dec-20
I would like you to consider one other item that is the reason I believe the backcountry hunters are so successful. They re-focus the essence of hunting from the killing of wildlife to the adventure. This is more appealing to the 90% of the general population that do not hunt who in return vote for candidates or issues regarding hunting. It also is appealing to the young professionals out of college who have never hunted, but are willing to give it a try and eventually become new hunters. Backcountry hunters repackage hunting into adventure and make man harmonious with an ecosystem that includes predators and game animals alike. They also prioritize science as a driving force behind wildlife management, not what the various hunting special interest groups want. That is also what gives them favor with game departments in north America who continuously have dogs nipping at their pant legs to get favor for their specific group. The game departments are then free to let their science be their guide when groups like backcountry hunters work in tandem with them. The non-consumptive users of the general population also find favor with the focus on conservation and adventure. That is my take on the group and why I am considering on becoming a life member. Not to mention the Kimber Mountain rifle I can choose to receive.

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-20
Frank, it's about two aspects - designation of National Monuments that the greens want to close to hunting, and closure of millions of acres that were accessible to my dad's generation, and me when I was growing up. Those roads actually spread out hunter pressure back when there were far more hunters than today.

Tate, your idea sounds good, but the stats from NSSF and USFWS show that these younger trendys aren't sticking with hunting. They try it, then discover it takes lots of time and money, and drop out. I researched this at the national and state level for an article, and the stats back it up..

Term limits at the federal level will never happen, because legislators will never vote to fire themselves from cushy jobs with lots of perks.

22-Dec-20
Been on keto since July, no beer, carbs or sugar. I'd punch a flat brimmer in the face for a hazy IPA.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
LMAO. I’m glad I only wear curved billed hats and drink Bud Light.

From: huntnmuleys
22-Dec-20
This is a really sad topic for me, because I am a lifetime BHA member as I joined a long time ago because of a lot of the things they were doing here in Wyoming. i’ve tried to be optimistic and sticking with it up to this point, but I really don’t see any good coming out of that organization at all. i’m figuring I will be canceling my life membership, but I’m not going to lie I am still going to use the hell out of the fly rod....

22-Dec-20
Tate,

That is well stated! WE are all just looking out for our own interests, and the realities you spoke of are forces organizations like BHA have to face. Being older though, the P&Y aligns more with my own goals and wishes.

Thanks Lou. Land closed due to being labeled a national monument or due to private land ownership that many hunters face in the Midwest and other areas lead to the same results-less hunting opportunities for everyone.

Some of the folks posting comments about trump's divisiveness resonates with me for exactly this challenge we face-lost hunting opportunities. Trump had a habit of declaring everyone who offered an opinion different from his to be his enemy. That is where is political naivete that many loved him for actually hurt us IMHO. We need a big tent approach, we need to build coalitions with folks/entities that are not 100% aligned with us when we can use each other to achieve what we want individually. Give and take is reality, life has never been about 'my way or the highway'.

The comments about the flat brimmers, granola and latte consumers bust me up. I don't care about what anyone else legally does. It sure isn't going to change me and what I believe and how I act. I bet it won't you either. I make no apologies for being me, and don't ask for any either. Live and let live, which means people think differently than me. Tate has some very wise words there. We all know what he speaks is the truth, we just come here to *itch and moan about it. How about we take his advice and come up with ways to get more of what we want?

You guys know the Christmas Bear hunting thread? A bid for $4k for the P&Y Club! I never expected that, typically I think of Children's Mercy, Catholic Charities, Red Cross etc. That guy is putting his money right where we need it. Thank you to him.

From: grossklw
22-Dec-20
All this talk and hate over something that has no business getting bashed the way it is.

All the negative talk towards a completely innocent bystander is completely unwarranted. I love IPA's and think they have a very real place in my beer fridge hierarchy.

From: huntnmuleys
22-Dec-20
Ok I need to add to what I said. Not so much just the Wyoming chapter, but I have lived my entire life basically on the border of Wyoming and South Dakota. The BHA guys On the South Dakota side are basically just bow hunters. So it’s not just the Wyoming efforts that I’ve been all right with, I really liked a lot of what is happening on the South Dakota site. And that, is exactly what makes this whole situation so difficult. A lot of the things the national organization is standing for makes my colon crinkle. But locally, a lot of times people I know very well and they are doing good things. That is what makes the BHA such a difficult topic for me.

From: TD
22-Dec-20
Tate..... with all due respect you are uninformed and clueless as to America, Trump, what has been going on the last 4 years with blatant proven lies and other BS as well as the elections. In all honesty it would seem your only sources are your government sanctioned sources, your government run media. Trudeau et al will only show you what they want you to see. And you all seem to soak it up without question. Especially without information. Seem nice people who want good things.... why would they lie to you?

Your comments about Nazi Germany or Hitler says it all. Clueless repetition of a line your people have been feeding you. Facts, truth actually matters. Reality shows it has been EXACTLY the opposite. Look at the left's actions, not words, they will say anything. Nazi's didn't stand up nor fight for personal individual freedom and rights. They formed mobs. Huge unthinking mobs. Mobs that required total conformity with political and personal beliefs or face censorship, violence... or worse. Next they took away guns and rights to own them. Shortly after took away rights to free speech and free press. Total control of the press, information. Academia (a classic Nazi line was to forget about the parents, control the schools and what the children learn, they can be indoctrinated. ) Total censorship. Remove books, statues, monuments and..... history.

Actions. Remind you of anyone?

What you DIDN'T didn't see were conservative/right riots. Calls to censor/cancel people and speech. Looting. Arson. From the right you saw rallies and actual peaceful, legal protests that often even leave the area cleaner than before. OTOH you saw leftist riots, looting, burning, assault, violence...... that the liars in media stood in front of cameras and called it "mostly peaceful protests" as cars and building literally burned in the background. Can't make this stuff up..... shades of Baghdad Bob propaganda. Liars. Bald faced, knowing liars. And people ate it up by the spoonful. Some will go along with anything to "get along". It's actually what they count on. I don't know what folks call it up there. Here it's called don't wizz down my back and tell me it's raining.

Trump called out the lies as well as the liars. They don't like that. So instead of changing tack they doubled down on the lies. Now they have totally lost all credibility with at least half the country. And losing more by the day. Americans hate to be lied to.... especially "for their own good..." And they hate elitists. I know of no nice, polite way to shut down liars, especially when called out and refused to make honest corrections, choose to double down. Takes someone with the cajones to say it to their face, but hey, lets not offend anyone that is lying to your face..... Yet somehow in leftist world there are rules that only apply to the right and not the left. For them there are no rules. They have a cause don'cha know.....for your own good....

If not for double standards..... they'd have no standards at all.

Thank God we have our Constitution, Bill or Rights, in which the people tell their government what it can and can't do, not the other way around. Rights not "granted" or "allowed" by government or by ANY man. Much of the problem is the government and it's lackeys forget that. They need to be reminded. Going along to get along in the face of, well, lies and evil in many cases.... just hands the game over to evil. Giving up without a fight.

Kinda like a "hunting" org joining hands with HSUS and other anti hunting groups, supporting anti gun administrations and the like..... it's America, your right to do so, join and support any group you like. But let the facts be known for all to make such a choice. Know about where your money is going, where your support is going. Who this group is (i.e. donating to BLM is in actuality a donation to Actblue, a fundraising arm of the Democrats, not to any black communities) In this case it's pretty clear if a person actually looks rather than feels. But I'd have to admit..... they might have better meetings than Sierra Club, Green Peace or HSUS......

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-20
"Land closed due to being labeled a national monument or due to private land ownership that many hunters face in the Midwest and other areas lead to the same results-less hunting opportunities for everyone."

So, when Trump reclassified millions of acres of Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments to allow for oil, gas, and mineral exploration/development, did that help or hurt hunting and fishing opportunities in those areas? Keep in mind, hunting and fishing were allowed on those lands before the reclassification. And, public land that is leased for energy development is often closed to other public uses.

If I recall correctly, the BHA's position was that the reclassification could ultimately reduce hunting/fishing/recreational opportunities on those lands. I can't say that I disagree with them.

Matt

22-Dec-20
TD,

You keep playing the same, long, broken record. The American electorate spoke, right as the Constitution directed. Your god lost, get over it. We are not going to let him change the rules to serve him, it was never about him, that’s what the extreme narcissist will never be capable of realizing. It has always been about the people, and the majority said good riddance, don’t let the door kiss you on the way out.

From: Brotsky
22-Dec-20
Brad, very well said. I also know a lot of the SD BHA guys and they are top notch guys and hunters. I try to support them locally when I can without money going to National. It’s a conundrum for sure.

From: Will
22-Dec-20
Hey, TU has busted on the current administration consistently for the past 4 years. I've been pondering a lifetime membership, and may still do it... BHA is a good org in my book (no surprise, I'm sure) and this thread makes me think I should send some more $ to them.

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-20
GG, all I know is that ince an area is designated as National Monument, all it takes is the stroke of a pen by the wrong president, and it is closed to hunting. That won't happen if it is still BLM or NF. I had to tiptoe all around Dinosaur when hunting elk, and told by NPS to not even bother trying to recover it if it went across the boundary and died. Yet there was nothing "special" about the thousands of acres in front of me, other than the arbitrary designation.

From: Tate
22-Dec-20
Jaquomo, My own observations at some of the backcountry hunters events pre-pandemic differ from your data. They had very large gatherings, with a lot of youthful enthusiasm, not to mention a lot of fine whiskey. There was male, female, families, babies, and they were firm on their purpose.

TD, What I am aware of and I observed via video, was a president using force on protesters who may have been obnoxious, but non-violent and non-destructive, Not because there was any danger to himself, anyone else, or to any property, but in order to have a photo op with a bible in front of a church. This was offensive to me as a Christian as it would have served him better to read the bible instead of using it for a photo op. That's what I saw.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-20
Lou,

It takes nothing but a stroke of a president's pen to either classify or declassify federal land in or out of monument status. It's still managed under the authority of the BLM either way. Not all monuments are closed to hunting. And not all BLM is open to hunting. One thing is a fairly sure bet, however. If the land gets leased for energy development, it's not likely to be open to hunting or other public uses.

Matt

From: HDE
22-Dec-20
"And, public land that is leased for energy development is often closed to other public uses."

You don't know how wrong you are with that statement. Unless, of course, you speak about the massive footprint loss for solar and wind farms...

From: Treeline
22-Dec-20
Never had any issues whatsoever hunting BLM around any energy development. Usually areas around mining is off limits due to safety concerns but only in the active mining areas.

Solar farms are a blight upon the earth with a lot of extra land fenced off around the ones I’ve seen. Horrible!

Have not been around any wind farms on public lands.

From: wilhille
22-Dec-20
I am hunting a national monument January 1-15.....

From: Skippy
22-Dec-20
Great post’s by Woods Walker and TD... keep giving them hell because they deserve it!!!!!

22-Dec-20
National monuments are managed both by the BLM and the US forest service. The managing agency in the area of the national monument is the agency responsible for that management.

As is, public lands are bound by federal law to require public input on management. And, every piece of federal land has a management plan and, is required to do revisions periodically. The agency managing the ground sets dates to accept public input, then writes the plan, then puts the plans out for public comment. If anyone oppose, arbitration takes place until it can’t be settled. Then courts, etc....

Once a resolution is met on multiple use public lands, the plan is sent to Congress. To be signed into law. And, that’s what they do every single time under multiple use policy.

In reality, the process is abused by extremists in courts. But, in reality it’s beautiful too because we the people determine how this land is going to be managed.

However, All that changes with a government designation. Because designation of any sort requires the area be statutory against the laws outlining multiple use public lands. What that means is Congress now has the only authority to manage that designated area. It NO longer requires public approval. That is a certified fact. And, don’t let anyone else tell you differently. I’ve got documentation from the government stating that.

I’ve set at a few tables hashing this out with groups that are both friendly and non friendly to hunting. And, those non friendly to hunting know this. Which is why they push to designate public land away from public control. Their purse strings are huge and, they will buy their influence when the management plan for the designated area is written. Every single time. And, with no public input mandated, we get stuck with it.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
And thus the need to ban together as a group. BHA.

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-20
Tate, the data on young hunter attrition is not mine. It is hard data from NSSF, USFWS, and states. They get involved, hunt a couple times, maybe a season or two, then move on. The ones that stick are far fewer than the huge numbers of older hunters dropping out because of lack of access and opportunity.

You saw a lot of younger people partying and drinking whiskey. Heck, I'm all for more flat-brim, man-bunners hunting and supporting hunting. How many at the parties were active hunters, vs. backcountry fishermen and backpackers who joined BHA because it is way cooler than Sierra Club, and they get liquor? Did they talk about the threats to hunting at the parties? About what they plan to do to counter them? If this was in the U.S. I would ask, How many voted against the president who did more for hunting opportunity than any president since Teddy Roosevelt? How many support the Second Amendment? How many were in favor of locking up land and closing historical access to all but the very fittest hunters? How many would have voted to artificially stock wolves in a state like CO, against biologists recommendations, because the cool leaders of BHA weren't opposed to it?

BHA could do so much to help the cause of hunting, but they are laser focused on their missions, which is counter to the priorities of most hunters who understand what is really going on in the U.S. I'm afraid that instead of recruiting hunters, they are instead brainwashing younger folks with their leftist, elitist, Green New Deal narrative.

But maybe I'm way off base. Maybe BHA is simply a landing pad for the people I described above, with dramatically different values than the outdoorsmen I know and grew up with, who fought for hunting rights and 2A rights.

22-Dec-20
You are who you surround yourself with. Which is why most state chapters are great. And National is a turd.

No hunting org can compete with the bank accounts of our opposition. And, until you’ve had lobbyists of the Sierra Club tell you one thing, then stick it in your back lobbying something totally different, you won’t understand. And, with no law to revisit the table, you get to fill it regularly. So, you don’t rub thighs with them. Because they ain’t our friends.

From: TD
22-Dec-20

TD's Link
Lou, both WV and you are correct. Once designated as National Monument (the precursor designation to National Park) there is officially no longer public (local) input to be taken into account WRT management of the Monument as there is with BLM land, National Forest, etc. Those entities require local or public input to use, management rules and changes. With the new designations they can do as they please. The folks who actually, you know, live there, work there..... can go suck eggs. Somebody in DC will make the call for them. You know..... do what's best for them.....

Tate.... gonna guess you didn't see the very church you are talking about with fire dept all around and smoke pouring out just a few short hours earlier.... the church those same "peaceful protestors" had set on fire? Along with several other buildings on fire in Layfayette Park that night near the White House? yeah... you didn't see nor hear any of the truth or facts surrounding your "peaceful protests". Because they don't want you to see it.... seemingly combined with a wish not to see it. They not only frame it for you with their "news", they will tell you what you should think about it. And at that time all they wanted you to think was "Orange Man Bad". Not rioters setting fires or throwing bricks and frozen bottles of water (the new age brick....) at firemen and police.

Back to the lies told of "peaceful protests"..... Peaceful protests don't loot, assault, nor set buildings on fire. Those are called "riots". Want to get into the events that caused these riots? Yet more outright knowing lies and double standards.... but likely for another thread. But I'll guarantee using your current sources like I'm seeing.... likely haven't heard or seen the facts of these events either.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-20
Justin,

Thank you for a very informative post above. Sincerely.

So, basically, any president has the authority to designate federal lands to his political advantage by EO only. Then, the next president from the other team reverses those EOs for their own perceived advantage. The net result is stagnation over time.

Those brilliant Founding Fathers never cease to amaze me.

Matt

From: Tate
22-Dec-20
fellas, I did see the rioters causing destruction and setting portions of that same church on fire a day earlier. I did see the police move in and quell the rioters. What I am talking about is that protesters outside your white house a day later being tear gassed, flash banged, pepper sprayed, and beaten, in order for the your president to be able to walk down the street and have a photo op in front of that same church with a bible. I also recall the pastor of that church blasting trump for using the opportunity for a political statement, instead of getting to the root of the problem. I contend the violent rioters needed to be focused on, not an easy target using an overwhelming show of force. I also remember there were actual military units there to perform this staged event. I believe it was staged by the evidence that your attorney general and other politicians aligned with trump were there to take part in this photo op. Am I correct in believing that your military cannot be used against your own citizens? Very sad. Responding illegally to illegal activities do not make them right.

22-Dec-20
I had to edit. Spell check is something else.

You are welcome Matt. FWIW, A president only has the authority to designate a national monument under the Antiquities Act. It would legally take an act of Congress to do away with it.

Trump raised quite a stir with his EO directing the department of interior to look into the Bears Ear National monument. But, that’s all the authority he had. It was worded the way it was for a reason. It’s determined no president has the authority to outright change a management plan in anyway. That’s always been congress’s sole responsibility on designated lands. I’m surprised it went that far.

From: bucman
22-Dec-20
Tate, you are so poorly and misinformed regarding the “mostly peaceful” protests and the president using force against the protesters. That is so far from the truth and frankly just complete bull crap that you must have eaten up from the media. How in the hell is throwing bricks, vandalism, arson, theft, assault and murder even close to peaceful. Almost every night the federal employees, law enforcement, business owners, and their properties were under attack by the rioters. To a point that it clearly was an attack by terrorists working to destroy everything they could. They rioted for any and all reasons and did not give a damn about the people they claimed to support. You really need to take a second look at what the lying media showed you and maybe just ask someone who was there protecting those people and their property from the vile and violent rioters. Literally hundreds of law enforcement and bystanders were injured and dozens killed. But I guess it must not be true if the media didn’t show you that....

From: bucman
22-Dec-20
Since my last post was not about BHA.... yeas they are way too far left. They believe that getting into bed with organizations like HSUS and Sierra club will help accomplish their goals of stopping all mining, drilling, grazing, and logging and therefore help hunting. That is flat out head in the sand idiotic thinking. I emailed BHA about 7 years ago to find out why they were so against roads, logging, and grazing. Their response showed me they thought very lowly about anyone making a living ranching or logging. That was enough for me to never support them.

From: JSW
22-Dec-20
When you have hunters voting for and rabidly supporting those who will take away our rights or at the very least, appoint judges who will do it for them is about as sad as it gets. This country is so screwed.

From: timberdoodle
22-Dec-20
Happy to be a member of the BHA. I've seen the policy recommendations that they've put forward, how they've worked with government to improve hunting opportunities, and have seen the enthusiasm that the local board members and leadership have for hunting. Frankly, I've seen them do more in the past couple of years on policy engagement and habitat work than my local sportsman group seems to have done.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-20
When you have hunters voting for someone who would rather rip our country apart for his own vanity is as dangerous as it gets.

From: Tate
22-Dec-20
I just saw on our news that your president will be blocking the covid stimulus legislation. At first I was in total disbelief that he would be so heartless to do this. There was then a report on the actual content of this legislation. Only 7% of the moneys allocated went to actual relief for the us. 93% was allocated to foreign countries. 100 million us dollars to Nepal, 90 million us dollars to Ukraine, and the list went on and on. How is it possible you allow your congress to get away with this. I will applaud trump for blocking this effort if the facts presented are true. I got these facts from a roku news channel that is considered an alternate news source. Maybe someone from us can confirm?

22-Dec-20
93 percent foreign aid, I call BS.

22-Dec-20
No one can confirm anything. It’s just what’s been put down the pipe. According to many elected officials, the bill was given so late, and contained so much pork, they couldn’t read it before voting on it.

So, all we have are what news agency’s are reporting. And, I’m sure it follows along the lines of what you’ve read. It’s the American politicians way.

But, simply for the sake of it, divide 900,000,000,000 by 330,000,000. That amount is what’s left if every supposed citizen in this country received $600. That’s not the case as many are above the threshold and, not all census citizens are old enough to receive the payout,

One thing his for sure, I know how to fix the problems we have. Hang every single member of both parties that voted for this and start again. We are doomed if we let this go through. The interest alone on these coronavirus bailouts, before paid back is simply too large to ever get paid off.

This Corona virus is a flipping joke. It will go down as the leading cause of America faltering and failing in the end. It put fear where faith belonged, and turned this economy into an inflated and bound to fail mess. We will never recover this debt if we go through with this bailout.

America had better put their big boy pants on. FWIW, I’m not heartless. But, people die. Especially when you live as unhealthy as our society does. This virus as whole is not going to kill well over 99% of us. It is the mildest “sickness” I have ever experienced. And, it’s been that way for a very large percentage of people who’s had it. So, we’d better get busy with legislation that represents that knowledge or this republic is lost. It is really that simple.

From: RK
22-Dec-20
Yes it's true. The bill is total BS LOADED with pork in the form of millions to foreign countries

We should clean house on both sides of the gov and get people in there that care about us and the US

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-20
Yep. A half billion dollars so Jordan can built a wall on the Syrian border to keep out illegal immigrants? For real. Ten million for gender identity programs for Pakistan? Really... Reps had five hours to read and digest this 6,000 page bill, then had to vote. If they voted no, the media blew it up into "heartless politicians don't care about poor suffering Americans"

Trump wanted $2000 for every family, but the bill only gives $600 because so much goes elsewhere to pet pork projects. Thats what he is most upset about.

From: Treeline
22-Dec-20
Remove every member of the house and senate that voted for this abortion of a bill. Now!

Stop any BS payments of our tax dollars to any of this crap.

Hang anyone that has imposed unconstitutional restrictions upon their citizens in the name of “Covidithobia”.

From the nearest tree.

As soon as possible.

I gotta rope. And can get more...

From: JL
23-Dec-20
IMO....I don't see this virus bill getting signed in it's current form. Too much pork. What was it....6000+ pages and Congress only had a few hours to read it before they had to vote on it!! This is the Pelosi 2.0 in 2020....you have to pass it before you can find out what's in it. Except this time many Repubs were complicit in that passing. I'll give credit to the few Dems and Repubs who voted against it. If I understood it correctly(??).....Prez Trump wants to give everyone $2000 vs the $600 in the virus bill. I'm leaning towards disagreeing with that one. Bill Gates doesn't need $2000, much less $600. I don't need the money either. There should be some type of provision or "means-testing" to make sure that money gets distributed to the folks/businesses that actually need it....not some blanket application where everyone gets it. At least that is how I understood it.

From: Glunt@work
23-Dec-20
Its absurd. I wish I could say its absurd AND surprising.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20
Do some of you get your news from the comics section?

First, the bill that was passed by Congress was a combination of a $900 billion Covid relief package AND a larger $1.4 trillion spending bill to keep the government open. The details of the relief package are easily found from several sources, and it DOES NOT contain any foreign aid. The president's complaint with this package is it doesn't provide enough money to qualifying recipients.

The details of the larger spending package are a little more difficult to find, I suspect because nobody has had time to sleuth thru them.

IMO, the 2 bills should have never been combined. It only creates confusion and misinformation, like we've seen on this thread.

Matt

23-Dec-20
As stated above, no one is sure what’s in it. There are too many conflicting accounts. However, we know if not veto’ed, we just inherited another 2.3 trillion dollars of debt. Over a virus that’s so deadly, when diagnosed with it the doctors tell you to go home, take vitamin c, vitamin d3, zinc, and possibly an aspirin. Rest. Once symptoms subside, wait three days and go back to everyday life.

23-Dec-20
Matt,

I think it is more ignorance that anyone would believe foreign aid entails even a significant part of our federal budget. It does not, but I agree it still should be cut back. The bill even included more for defense spending, which also has waste. SS, Defense, health care are the biggest government spending categories by far.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20
Frank,

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

We could also discuss the fact that discretionary appropriations represent only about 30% of the total federal budget. The $1.4T portion of this bill is consistent with past discretionary budgets, only the amounts have probably shifted around some. I haven't dug that deep, yet.

But discussing facts is often pointless, here.

Matt

From: Glunt@work
23-Dec-20
I'm not saying this omnibus is something new. Past spending is just as absurd.

As for Covid, sending people a $600 check isnt fixing anything. It costs way more than $600/person to do that and is like bailing water from a sinking ship with a Dixie cup.

We need to get back to work and life.

23-Dec-20
Glunt agreed, but how many here call Trump the most conservative president ever as he demands $2k per person?

Trax, anyone?

From: Jaquomo
23-Dec-20
Of course it is a combined bill, and that's the problem. The optics are very bad. It appears that billions are going out of the country while thousands of small businesses are failing here because of government policies, and failure to provide meaningful subsidies to offset the forced losses. Fact check that all you wish.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20
How does one fact check "optics"?

;-)

Matt

From: Snuffer
23-Dec-20
Trump also said remove the pork from the bill. America first... something flaming liberals hate the most.

23-Dec-20
So saying ‘America First’ while spending money like a drunken sailor is now the definition of a conservative? Got it!

From: Snuffer
23-Dec-20
Who's doing all the spending habitat? Pull your head out of your ass.

23-Dec-20
Sniffer,

Everyone is, only a handful voted No.

Why is it you guys always go for the crude response? Because your god does, you know, the guy that was fired by the American people for his conduct!

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-20
I renewed my BHA membership today. I got to get me one of those flat brim “”Public Land Owner” hats and send it to JohnMC to replace that dirty worthless OU hat. Good gosh that thing has to smell.

From: Treeline
23-Dec-20

Treeline's embedded Photo
Treeline's embedded Photo
Maybe this will help clear it up a bit.

Shows where US citizens stand at $600 if you make under $90K.

Appears that illegal immigrants were also allocated up to $1,500 each.

Americans last...

This was voted through on both sides of the aisle.

Throw all the bums out!

23-Dec-20
Tree line,

Your source is including the government spending bill that keeps the government open until next September. The COVID stimulus package was a separate piece.

Maybe try following a legitimate news source, not Flynn and Powell falsehoods.

From: Brotsky
23-Dec-20

Brotsky's embedded Photo
Brotsky's embedded Photo
Merry Christmas guys!

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20
Who comes up with nonsense like Tavis' meme?

Matt

From: bigswivle
23-Dec-20
I LOL’d when I got the guy from Canada saying he was laughing at those of us “south of the border”

From: Brotsky
23-Dec-20
Bigswivel, I might stream Canadian Bacon this afternoon after reading through this. :)

From: Bowbender
23-Dec-20
Frank,

The COVID relief WAS a seperate bill. The two were joined and it was ONE vote on the entire 6,000 page, 2 feet thick, 66lb, ****ing monstrosity. There has been droves of small businesses that have closed in PA. Maybe those former owners are pissed when they see $12M going to Pakistan for women's equality or gender studies bravo sierra.

My SIL is an owner of a bowling alley/sports bar. They've been struggling since March. The latest lockdown is just another gut punch. Meanwhile, we can gather at Target, Walmart and any other store with no limitations. I stopped by Ulta yesterday over lunch to pick up a few stocking stuffers for the wifey. Place was packed. Meanwhile, the eateries in the same mall are either shuttered permanently, or hanging by a thread.

THAT is what has people pissed over the whole bill. Ya' I get it. Foreign aid is like 1% of our federal budget. That's still something like $36B. But if there $$'s to piss away on gender studies in 3rd world shit holes.....we can spend it better on our own. Or we should.

23-Dec-20
You gotta love the whining of the resident libs about how the Covid bill and the omnibus spending bill were "separate" and therefore there is no reason to argue against the out of control spending on foreign aid!

They were NOT separate. It was one piece of legislation. Precisely because Democrats (and some Republicans) were gambling that the American people were stupid enough to rejoice at the idea of getting a $600 check and overlook the pork.

Apparently it worked on some of our less clever BS libs!

Pete

From: krieger
23-Dec-20
Haha, " it's two separate bills" = lib speak for " stop talking about real stuff and how our politicians are screwing us".

America has been fooled for so long, the majority of folks think we're all playing with monopoly money. it will be interesting when it all crashes down. Then evolution will weed out the ignorant....

There is NO Way this can be justified to me, and for the morons that complain about Trump wanting to spend even more money, let me explain it to you. He was saying that " if you're going to pass a bill this large, give it back to the American people" , not ADD it to the total.. we should get 2k out of the 2700 instead of 600. I won't be getting any and haven't in the past. I think the whole thing should be vetoed. If we're going to worship at the altar of EVOLUTION like the libs want to do, lets let the weak die off..people and corporations alike. Need a good freeze....

It's amazing to see the lake of shame grown men have these days...everyone with their hand out...wow. Quite disgusting. Anyone who thinks we should be doling out foreign aide at this junction is an idiot and a traitor, IMO.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20

Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
For the record, here's a breakdown of the Covid relief portion of this bill. Trump is demanding the "direct checks" portion to be more than tripled.

The federal spending portion of this bill isn't much different than Trumps last discretionary budget for FY 2021, which was over $1.4T, and ends on September 30, 2021. The $36B of foreign aid represents a drop in the bucket, relative to both the Covid relief package and the overall discretionary budget in this bill. Even if they put all of the foreign aid into "direct checks" to US citizens, it wouldn't come close to Trump's demands of $2000 to every qualifying recipient. Just a few facts and perspective.

Matt

23-Dec-20
“ Only 7% of the moneys allocated went to actual relief for the us. 93% was allocated to foreign countries. “

This is the only thing I called BS on, and I don’t care if you put both bills together or separately, it’s still BS.

Typical of the trumplicans here to try and distract so they can feel better calling someone a lib. Your god is now liberal. Dump the subsidies and let people get back to work. That’s not the voice of a liberal.

23-Dec-20
I take it you’ve read the bills Matt?

From: Bowbender
23-Dec-20
Frank,

"Dump the subsidies and let people get back to work."

Agreed. That's better than a check for $600 or $2,000. Still, a spending bill that is 6,000 pages. JHC....what legacy have we left our kids and grandkids. I thought the ACA Bill at 2,000 pages was nuts.

From: TD
23-Dec-20
Hey Pete! Good to see ya! Tip a wolf over for me!

Yeah... those whining about "misinformation" when with their own prejudice they misinform themselves. FACT is, it's one bill. Media spoon feeds it after taking it for a nice spin and some guys slurp it up.... I mean, they are the "real" news.... so credible, why would they lie?

Meant to be one bill so not able to separate the pork from the bull chit.... so all one big chit sandwich, no matter what you guys want to wrap it with. And trotted out last second.

Then with a jerk of the knee.... "It's Trumps fault". Until called on it then it's everybody's fault. Buy a vowel. Trump doesn't write this spending crap. You guys call him "fascist" and "dictator" he's gone by the letter of the Constitution the whole way, he actually knows what he can and can't do, what the powers of Executive branch are. Seems it's others that don't know. He can't write it, nor can he re-write it or change it. He can sign it or veto it. And the way the dems packaged it, it's all or nothing. Evil is as evil does. But it's Trump's fault. He talks mean.... good grief....

He ought to veto this whole mess. Make em stay and work on it through the holidays just for being a-holes. Congress should be spanked for playing stupid games with peoples lives and even stupider "relief" scams. $600..... that's a bad joke. An insulting bad joke.

Azzes need to get back to work. Politicians and elitists need to take their foot off the working man's throat or they will soon find they have nothing but a bloody stump..... people are pizzed and some think those people can just be patted on the head and told to calm down. F' off....

23-Dec-20
TD, I couldn’t agree more. One vote. One bill. However, since Matt seems to know more about then those who voted for it, I’ll play his games. That what he does. So, once again Matt, have you read the bills?

From: Will
23-Dec-20
Actually, no D's wanted 600 bucks. They wanted more for each American. The D's were on the SAME page as Donald John Trump. The R's wrestled the D's down, to numbers LOWER than Donald John Trump wanted, apparently. Which ended up at 600. Now Trump is re-entering the negotiation at the last nano-second saying "Give Americans More". The D's, naturally, said "Heck yeah, we wanted that, lets do it."

So, currently, at least in terms of direct aid to Americans, NANCY PELOSI and DONALD TRUMP are more aligned than Trump and the R party.

Yes, I know that's an overly simplistic assessment, but man it's funny to entertain Trump and Pelosi wrapping up Trumps presidency on the same page!

23-Dec-20
Tom,

Agreed, but trump pulling for $2k aligns him closer to Ds at the twilight of his presidency. Who knows, maybe he will switch parties, again, before the next election.

Yes TD, make another speech so the peanut gallery of one, Justin, can applaud yet again.

The only point I made was foreign aid does not compromise 93 percent of any bill, combined or not. Instead of admitting the truth you distract again with minuscule details. Tell us how trump is the great conservative while pushing for $2k? He is nothing more than a populist trying to regain some lost glory on the way out. Stick a fork in it, he’s done. All he is doing with his latest shenanigans is convincing those who voted against him they made the right decision.

From: krieger
23-Dec-20
" Dump the subsidies and let people get back to work. That’s not the voice of a liberal. "

Thanks for clarifying Habitat, I agree completely, that's not liberal mantra. You are correct.

Stop propping up the BS covid scam and get folks back to work. Time to sink or swim. Let's let Darwinism take effect.

BTW, Trump is not my God, he's just one man that has the spine to stand up to the deep state and call a spade a spade, that is all. I respect him for that. He spends like a drunken sailor compared to what I would do as POTUS, but that's another matter. The sad fact is the majority of Americans now are begging little birdies, who can't fend for themselves...

The conservatives on here have felt like they haven't had a voice in years, and Trump is speaking what they believe, that's why he's popular among patriots. I think you do yourself a disservice trying to falsely accuse folks of worshiping him. I'm pretty sure you're smarter than that.. Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone!

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20
Justin,

I'm not here to do your research for you. The fact is, the House voted on these 2 bills as separate measures. Both measures passed by huge majorities. They sent both bills to the Senate under one measure, where it passed by a 92-6 majority vote. Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of both sides of the isle voted in favor of this bill(s). Now, Trump wants to add even more spending to the relief side of it. Those are simple facts that are easily confirmed by numerous sources.

And to answer your meaningless "gotcha" question, I have not read the entire bill, nor will I. I don't need to read 6000 pages of a bill to understand the gist of it. It's an economic relief package combined with a normal annual discretionary appropriations bill. The last 2 years have had similar discretionary budgets of $1.4T. I'd love to see that figure reduced, as well as the larger mandatory spending portion of the federal budget. But, history tells us I might as well be hoping to have beers with Sasquatch, instead.

Matt

From: Will
23-Dec-20
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/22/948826751/hawaii-reboots-depression-era-conservation-corps-using-pandemic-assistance-funds

Friend just sent this to me, and it hit me (I know, it's NPR... It's still a good story)... This sort of CCC comeback program if you will could be awesome. It's largely outdoors - so relatively COVID safe. It's gets an opportunity to help for people who's industry may be smashed (restaurant workers for example), and may not be remotely close to the same for a long time given likely changes in employment shape (businesses doing more work from home saving money on buildings and thus fewer professionals in downtowns etc to eat... ) to have a good option. And nationally, this would create pride. When suddenly there are more people working to physically improve our communities and the outdoor options we have in them, that's good. Plus, you ultimately have people working, and the economic positives of that.

I realize in rural Nebraska, maybe this isnt helpful... But in a lot of places, ccc like programs could be pretty helpful and sure seem a great use of national investment dollars...

From: JSW
23-Dec-20
Flatlander When you have hunters voting for someone who would rather rip our country apart for his own vanity is as dangerous as it gets.

Trump has done nothing to tear this country apart. All of the destruction, hate and division has been a product of the left. All Trump wants to do is make this country better. He is hit with stone walls from all sides.

You don't see Republicans rioting, beating, burning and terrorizing just because they don't get their way.

Consider this, Trump and his supporters want to make the country better. The lefties want to fundamentally transform the greatest county in history. Even China Joe uses the phrase "transform",never improve.

23-Dec-20
Krieger,

Thanks. The ‘god worshipping’ is a direct rebuttal to always being labeled a leftist here just for being critical of Trump on some issues. I don’t mind you pointing out when I pick on trumplicans as long as you do the same when they accuse all others of being leftists. If we can ever do that, we might have some great dialogue here.

The sincerity is genuine!

23-Dec-20
Matt, I think you probably need to go back and read my posts. I’m not for any of it. I made that real clear. As I have in the past. Government spending is out of control and those doing it need to be treated as I said.

I’m also certain you have no earthly idea what’s in this other then what your sources gave you. Are we to believe that you read all 6000 plus pages? Nope. But, it didn’t stop you from standing on your pedestal acting as if you did.

This stupid virus reaction is going to bankrupt this country. All of it from president on down is ignorant. Over spending for appropriations has been long outta control and a pet peeve of mine. The words I’ve typed about it in the past are the same now. It’s outta control.

I meant what I said and I’ll say it until I die. No one knows what’s in the “bill”. And, there is a reason they run it altogether.

From: Will
23-Dec-20

Will's embedded Photo
Will's embedded Photo
Given we are discussing meme's, this is interesting. If anyone wants to fact check it, sounds great. I pulled it off a scientist's twitter feed I follow for work, and he was "re-tweeting" it. Given the "other" meme being sent around as a sign of blasphemy, I thought this was an interesting thing to consider - that Trumps budget included these expenses before. (In fairness, it's probable they have been there for years and years, possibly from before Trump, or before Obama, or before Bush etc. I'd suspect none of us know off hand)

From: Tate
23-Dec-20
I don't understand your president trump. At first he appeared to be stopping the legislation from a standpoint of fiscal conservatism because of the enormous amount of foreign aid. But now he is willing to allow it if there is an increase of direct payments to citizens of $2000 us each. This is more of a progressive liberal stance. Even our country did not pay out general payments to citizens unless they became unemployed in which case the would receive $2000 cdn per month for 4 months. These general payments, even the initial $1200 us were also a progressive ideal. Could someone please explain your govt's approach to this since there are so many on this forum and in your country opposed to socialist ideas, but yet welcome such a progressive liberal socialistic strategy?

Again, I must say this is laughable. From what I see, your gov't is truly broken. American has no political definition. At least here we know we're progressive liberals, but democratic. I am glad I live here.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20
Justin,

I stood on no pedestal pretending I've read the entire bill. I stated what I believe are facts, that you are welcomed to check. If I'm wrong on any of what I've posted, please provide evidence of it, and I will stand corrected.

You're welcome to stay ignorantly bliss until you die. That's your choice. I like to stay a bit more informed.

Matt

23-Dec-20
Matt, what you typically showcase shouldn’t be confused with informed.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20
Once again, Justin, refute anything I've posted on this thread, today, with credible evidence to the contrary. Please. I'll wait.

Matt

From: TD
23-Dec-20
This ought to throw some skirts over heads..... especially the finish! heheheheheh.....

Yeah, sounds like he's all for the pork stuffed into this mess, goodwid'it. You know it true, the MSM told ya it was.... WRT congress, actually I'm thinking they wrote it as many tiny little bills. Then a bit of super glue, a stapler and some elves on drugs assemble them all. Doesn't matter. FACT is, it's one bill, sign it or veto it. Once again, a binary choice......for the fence sitters and the..... nuanced....

Want to know how this foreign aid is spent.... how and exactly on who? So would I.

Lets ask the Biden Cartel, the Graham Center for American Prosperity, etc..... they might have some ideas. Maybe open an investigation into ALL of them, any and all personal as well as family foreign "investments" and connections laid out on the table. Seems a template is established, foreign kickbacks to family and friends from corruptocrats seems easier to hide and get away with. Biden's aren't the first nor the only ones to become incredibly wealthy on a congressman's salary. We can at least attempt to make them the last.

23-Dec-20
Let me see Matt. The president made it appear that he is vetoing only one bill. Now, you can stand on your little pedestal and claim what you have about past appropriations being in line with the “budget” part of this bill. And, you’d be right. No one said any different. At anytime during this thread. Yet, you’ve stuck to it like people have. So, you can be “right”.

Here’s reality. If the POTUS veto’s this, it will be One veto. Not Two. Yes, Congress put the bills together. Yes, they can claim budget appropriations are where the 1.4 TRILLION dollars is going to be spent. But, the whole point asked by the Canadian above is did the bill contain those moneys for Other countries. And, according to all major news networks and the president, it did. Because it DID!!!!!!!!!And, the reaction from the American people say they see it the same way. No matter how you and congress wants to break it down. It’s American credit footing the bill.

Nobody cares about which part goes where because most of it is fruitless pork spending. Everyone is fed up with this crap. And, the mindset is Quit spending money for things that aren’t beneficial to the working class of this country.

From: Treeline
23-Dec-20
Absolutely!

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-20
The federal discretionary budget has had foreign aid in it long before Trump, as well as every year during his only term. I suspect it will grow over the next 4 years. Hopefully, we'll get a fiscally responsible president in 2024, who will eliminate it entirely. I'm not holding my breath.

Matt

From: lawdy
23-Dec-20
Reading Stix’s post about spending Christmas in BC, how does he get across the border from Colorado? We have a place in Newfie and can’t get there. If he is a Canadian citizen, that would explain it, but how does he cross back?

From: Tate
23-Dec-20
You are allowed to cross border for family gatherings with rapid covid test prior to travel. You or spouse must have resident family in Canada. There are several ways to prove this association. I believe he made reference to family in his message. Not sure if this is specific to BC only, but I believe it is country wide.

From: lawdy
23-Dec-20
I live close to the border and they are rigid here. We fight fire in the Quebec villages and cross without stopping in our fire apparatus. Coming back, we get checked over. I play music in a nursing home that has a lot of Canadian residents. They haven’t seen family since March. I have not played there since then, but, being a fireman and ambulance attendant, I am getting the vaccine next week and the second 21 days later, so I may be able to entertain again.

From: lawdy
24-Dec-20
It is 12:30 and I just got back from a run. One of our young firefighters hit a huge doe. He works at a farm and got a concussion when a cow kicked him, and tonight he got another from the airbags. Then, while we were there, a young state trooper who works with us was shot nearby during a routine stop. The shooter is dead and they were able to stabilize the trooper. Crazy night and now I have to skin that deer. It’s crazy time.

From: Tate
24-Dec-20
Yes, air travel is much easier than vehicle border crossings. You present whatever documentation is acceptable to show proof of immediate family, then get a covid test nasal swab at departing airport. upon arrival present evidence at customs of negative results which is a double check since they will not allow you on plane to begin with. You be surprised at the low level of positivity rates for air travel

The whole covid issue is somewhat suspect in my opinion because of the inordinately low numbers patients being diagnosed with the flu. Why has the flu diagnosis's magically gone down exponentially, unless there is a very high false positivity rate in the mass quantity of covid tests being performed? I.E. flu victims are mistakenly listed as covid.

24-Dec-20
Welcome to the issues.

24-Dec-20
Tate,

Could other factors like less social gatherings, distance, better sanitary practices etc. have reduced flu virus spread? Covid is more contagious I thought?

But I also believe there is an incentive to conclude covid, probably multiple variables at play?

From: Tate
24-Dec-20
Yes Mr. Habitat, that is the only plausible explanation for this phenomenon, this is what the Canadian medical ministry is stating.

I really need to divorce myself from this thread, although I find it a very stimulating conversation, much to the chagrin of my wife.

I insist you all have a Merry Christmas, with Jesus Christ as your focal point; who He is, what He did, and what He continues to do.

24-Dec-20
Covid is so contagious that my wife and I stayed in the same house when I was diagnosed. I stayed hone for 9 days. I cooked supper many nights, she was off work because her work wouldn’t let her work. We cleaned house together, watched TV together, lived just like we always have. She never got it.

I’ve given similar accounts of people I know with the same results before. This isn’t a new phenomenon.

From: Dale Hajas
24-Dec-20
I know of at least 6 couples just as Justin has described. In every situation, they were isolated for 14 days. One had it, got over it, the other never got it. In one case husband and wife went hunting together, both bringing home a deer for the freezer.

BHA has not changed its colors. I imagine they will have a big push next spring after the World Economic Forum plans the Great Reset and pushes the cancel culture even more. Pretty soon the climate change issues will take center stage again- notice Amazon and Ford ads promoting clean energy? Watch the issues BHA follows right before and after the WES meeting. Put your dollars in groups that arent astro-turfed, and actually do something to benefit hunting.

From: Bowbender
24-Dec-20
Dale,

Take a deep breath, tighten your manbun, adjust your flatbrim, crack open an IPA and chill. Be thankful for the non traditional sources of revenue and don't worry. I'm sure when hunting is on the block, we'll be able to depend on Sierra Club, Patagonians, etc to support us.

From: Dale Hajas
24-Dec-20
I used to bomb the BHA giveaway ads on FB. I was threatened with “Wait till Land Tawney gets on here and straightens you out!” Lol Then it all disappeared.... lol I once had my old pc infected with an issue after one of the Leatherwall threads shining light upon the BHA and political connections with anti-hunting groups. Not saying anyone in particular did it or accusing bha mind you. Just a coinkydink:)

24-Dec-20
Yep, about 5-6 years ago on the Leatherwall, I was taking it to the BHA crowd. Made it my duty trying to get all the smoke and mirrors down. Dale was part of that too. I received a warning to stop. I didn’t. Then a women popped up on the Leatherwall and made some accusations about me pm’ing her. Unfounded and totally untrue. I never even talked to the old hag. Anyways, funny how that works sometimes.

From: elkster
24-Dec-20
Lou, "Young hunters....get involved, hunt a couple of times, maybe a season or two, then move on." Its a leap to assume that because they move on means they will be against hunting or even indifferent to it when faced with an opportunity to vote on it for the rest of their lives. How many friends have we known who no longer hunt ( because of age, change of heart, etc. ) ? Its WAY better to have them hunt than not. A significant percentage will surely be shaped by the experience positively.

From: Jaquomo
24-Dec-20
Elkster, I don't disagree with you. We need pro-hunting voters. But it's way deeper than that. In 15 years when we have 30% fewer hunters and hunting revenues are crashing and game departments are suffering, when gas is $6.00 a gallon and overall energy costs are skyrocketing (as Land Tawney's hero Obama promised), and we have to spend discretionary hunting income to retrofit our homes, and the prices of goods and services skyrocket, and we all have to either convert to electric vehicles or pay huge emissions taxes, BHA and their sister organizations will have won. It won't matter what hunting issues are on the ballot because hunting will be way down on the priority list except for those who can walk or drive their electric golf cart to where they start their hunt.

I predict that in 15 years BHA will no longer exist as a standalone, but will instead be a branch of a monstrous Green quasi-goverenmental enforcement organization in charge of vetting who and how people are allowed to use public lands.

From: Dale Hajas
24-Dec-20
I agree totally Lou. I truly believe that the group will claim to represent all states hunters, they already do this in Pa. The bha has been handing out this bs since its inception. It is good to see just how many hunters are waking up to their nonsense. Now I can wait for my Ipad to crash, or browser to start screwing up lol

From: elkster
24-Dec-20
Dale, " bha has been handing out his bs since its inception" Not so. Inception was in Oregon. The concept was that instead of interest groups comprised of either a common interest in a specific species, ( DU, RMEF, TU) or method of take, (bow vs firearm) why not unite, where possible, "non-consumptive" organizations which held common interest ( Sierra club, Nature Conservancy). IIRC, Also Leopold was and avid hunter while a member of Sierra club. Nature Conservancy allows hunting on some lands. I joined then because that made sense. Seek common ground with those who want some of what you also want. Sierra members want conservation more than they want to end all hunting and fishing. Outreach to younger generations also makes sense to me because they are crucial to preserving out rights to hunt and fish. I must admit though, the national leadership gives me pause. I don't expect any good to come from the new Interior director. If, after two years, no access has been denied or limits have been enforced on hunters, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

24-Dec-20
Watch how many deals Congress makes in the next 4 years to fulfill green energy mandates by states. Using public land to do so. It’s a bigger picture then the concerns you listed.

I too know that recruitment is the key. When needs Rinella, the Hush guys, etc.... What we don’t need is the brain wash of conservation the BHA practices.

From: Grasshopper
25-Dec-20
27 trillion in debt according to Rand Paul. I think he says every American owes 136 grand right now. Should we add 600 or 2000 more to that?

Clearly term limits are needed, all of Washington should be fired. All of them.

Not a fan of bha, i like open roads and cheap gas. Not a fan of dems, same reasoning

Reading this thread makes me sad thinking about all the wasted time you all have spent, but merry Christmas

From: Jaquomo
25-Dec-20
Steve, I type really fast, and when it's snowing sideways with a 40 mph wind, all my flies for spring and summer are tied, and being retired, arguing on Bowsite is just good clean fun and great entertainment! Better than watching the View! Plus, any doctor will tell you that venting is very healthy. Merry Christmas!

From: Bowbender
25-Dec-20
Any one that thinks the Sierra Club will be an ally when hunting is on the block must still beleive in Santa Claus.

From: JulianT
26-Dec-20
The Republican platform included transferring federal public land to the states when BHA was a small and insignificant organization. If that hadn't happened, BHA would likely still be a small and insignificant organization. I consider myself a dedicated hunter and angler and appreciate access to federal public land. I no longer do political cults, though.

From: Glunt@work
26-Dec-20
" I like open roads and cheap gas."

Me too. I grew up exploring and hunting the public lands of Colorado. As our population grew and the amount of open open roads shrank, the result was/is heavy use on the remaining open roads. That heavy use, from more users crammed on to less available roads, exacurbates the issues that are used as reasons for more closures. Its an unending process.

I also like hunting and exploring our roadless areas. When BHA came on the scene I thought it was pretty great that there was an organization who's title basically described me. Didn't take long to figure out I wasn't a fit.

From: Dale Hajas
26-Dec-20
Elkster- you are correct. I meant when the bha started trashing pa hunting orgs hoping to make a splash. The UBP was relentlessly beat upon for supporting a new deer management plan. In my haste to get to a Christmas eve dinner, i neglected to offer a better statement. I shouldve made that more clear. I actually agreed with some issues! But from the get go they were so anti- conservative, anti- republican it was sickening, In my volunteer days, I worked with both sides on a STATE level, achieving a great amount of success in our state, and on a state level I gained respect for both sides of the aisle. As long as Pa has incredible amounts of easy access state gamelands, Ill be here to do my best making sure it stays out of federal control and away from bha interference. Hope yall gad a great Christmas!

From: Stix
02-Jan-21

Stix's embedded Photo
Stix's embedded Photo

From: Stix
02-Jan-21
Wow, quite a discussion since I went out of town. Glad I only had spotty cell service up at the lake. Just some stats on the over 50,000 BHA members

From: Stix
02-Jan-21

From: Stix
02-Jan-21

Stix's embedded Photo
Stix's embedded Photo

From: Stix
02-Jan-21

From: Stix
02-Jan-21

Stix's embedded Photo
Stix's embedded Photo
I'

From: Stix
02-Jan-21

Stix's embedded Photo
Stix's embedded Photo
Maybe some of you folks need to enjoy the outdoors, not spending your time being keyboard warriors.

02-Jan-21
I’m usually with stix in all issues but not this one. BHA are about as good for hunters as the cattleman’s associations..

From: Bowbender
02-Jan-21
That column on the right. That you mock, that column and the second one from the right, those are the guys responsible for the hunting we currently enjoy. Not the IPA sippin flatbrimmers, but the greybeards.

BTW, we hunters in PA were sharing the harvest long before BHA showed up.

From: Orion
02-Jan-21
Stix I thought you were in Canada? You were bragging how BHA had opened it up.

From: Grasshopper
02-Jan-21
I don't mean to disparage, but pulleez hold the line of BS

28% "independent" democrats + 18% declared democrat + 13% undeclared, + 11% no comment = 70% of the people who get spoon fed to vote for democrats.

You guys sure went all out to help Cory Gardner after he sponsored his bill to permanently fund the holy grail of LWCF didn't you...

From: Scoot
02-Jan-21
Stix, your "stats" are a laughable joke. If you are confused about the agenda of BHA, then you are beyond hope as far as being able to make sense of the obvious.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
BHA members are also beautiful and fit!

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
I don't get it. I posted some numbers from a poll of the 50K of the BHA active members. It's not my data. What is the fear you have? That 14% of members are veterans or active duty military? That a majority of members tend to be young, energetic, and enthusiastic? That there are large groups of people who support BHA's mission for the conservation of pubic lands, waters, and wildlife?

My personal opinion is that the world of outdoor recreation has evolved to a mindset where conservation, fair chase, and scientific wildlife management, are king, not beholden to any one special interest group (Bowhunters, Muzzleloaders, etc). That's why game departments of the states and provinces, as well as USFW, USFS, BLM, state land boards etc, think highly of BHA and are always partnering with BHA to augment their mission. Gone are the times where special interest groups are nipping at the pant legs like an annoying dog looking to get special favor from them. You need to adapt to the changing environment, or you get left behind, becoming keyboard warriors that are insignificant and ignorant to the changing dynamics. Hunters fund and are North America's chief conservationists. That is what strikes a chord with the college students, military folks, young families, singles, etc who are joining BHA in college chapters, military chapters, and local chapters, who are our hope for the future of outdoor conservation. BHA is responsible for getting these folks to experience the outdoors, many who would likely never have tried angling or hunting. Some may stick with it, some not, but at least they are exposed to it. this can mold their future opinions and voting on issues that are important for the continued success of the NAMWC.

FYI my trip to visit family in Kelowna, BC was excellent. The borders are open to those having immediate family in Canada. I saw on the thread where one of the insignificant and ignorant keyboard warriors I spoke of above questioned my accuracy of the issue.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21
Cory Gardner had an R after his name. Which, in the official BHA glossary of correct thought, stands for "Reprehensible", no matter what good things they do.

From: Scoot
03-Jan-21
Stix, the only fear I have is of people who can't use logic, common sense, or the obviously available information to form a reasonable conclusion. If you don't get it at this point, you never will. BHA is loaded with tons of members who are great people with good hearts. That doesn't change the obviously liberal, anti-hunter leadership of the org. They've done a nice job of snowballing tons of those members. Again, if you can't see a wolf in sheep's clothing, I can see no reasonable explanation other than you are personally motivated to defend them for some reason or exceedingly dense.

From: Bowbender
03-Jan-21
"That a majority of members tend to be young, energetic, and enthusiastic?"

So are AOC's, Camel-Toe Harris', and a host of other far left wing groups. Point? My issue is that you continually denegrate the age group(s) that have done the most for our sport.

"You need to adapt to the changing environment, or you get left behind, becoming keyboard warriors that are insignificant and ignorant to the changing dynamics. Hunters fund and are North America's chief conservationists."

Nice. The group that has done the most for the sport is insignificant and ignorant. What strikes a cord with the younger crowd is being part of a group. A cool group. BHA is the cool group because it has partnered with enviro groups that are far left wing. And when (not if) hunting is on the block, we'll see how much the cool groups defend and support hunting.

BTW, BHA continues to be pretty much irrelevant in PA. While their chapter posts news articles and press releases, so do many other groups. Groups that actually have a mission. United Bowhunters of PA, TU, Lancaster Conservancy... The Conservancy is an interesting group. I suspect most of it's members are somewhat left of center. Almost 8,000 acres in Lancaster and York counties preserved. And most are open for hunting. They actually ACQUIRE land. There is a parcel of land next to the farm I hunt that was on the market for $4.5M. It's almost 600 acres. The Conservancy has acquired and is working with the PGC to determine the hunting regulations. Most of their lands are archery only as it's multi-use. This group gets my $$.

03-Jan-21
Stix I have a client that specializes in forest management and whose husband is an area manager. They cannot stand BHA’s stance as it completely eliminates how forests can be managed. They stand for nothing but wilderness everywhere and these places they are advocating for are coming dangerously close (or humans are inversely) to human populations. It’s a catch 22, I know, but I cannot stand with this group. The fact that this liberal group has stood WITH anti hunting groups such as the Sierra Club will go farther on the radar than some of their feeble attempts to promote hunting. They love to hike, love to fish, but maybe a handful love to hunt. They are no different than peta biologists being hired to run wildlife departments.. Cannot and will never support them.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
All of the leadership, from the CEO down to the local chapter leaders hunt. This is an example of the ignorance I spoke of above. What I do see is that they may not vote the way you do so that makes them different in a negative way to you.

03-Jan-21
Also, the folks I referred to above definitely do not vote the way I do..

03-Jan-21
When I was on the Alaska Board of Game, I listened ad nauseum as BHA testified against the recommendations of ADFG biologists and experienced Alaska hunters every time there was a proposal to manage or control predation on big game populations.

That was enough for me to realize what their true motives were.

Pete

03-Jan-21
Pete... exactly... where are they with wolves in Colorado? Wyoming? Montana? Minnesota, Idaho, grizzlies??

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21
There is a huge difference between occasionally "going hunting" (occasional Saturday afternoon pheasant outing and relaxing at a brewpub afterward) vs. being a "hunter" as a lifestyle. Not saying BHA leadership isn't comprised of a few "hunters", but that's the impression I got from researching.

From: trublucolo
03-Jan-21
Apparently lipstick and a skirt changes a pigs identity and true nature for some people.....

03-Jan-21
Their actions and lack of action are simply not a fit for me. And that’s enough for me. I’ll put my discretionary money elsewhere.

Stix’s arguments and BHA’s marketing are not enough to convince me that I will see the benefits of my money going to them as opposed to RMEF.

My lack of belief in them, and the lack of belief of hunters I know, is not a problem for me or us. It may or may not become a problem for BHA down the road.

I don’t disagree with everything BHA does... just enough for me.

I’m content in my reasoning. I’m content packing out garbage from public land on my own. I’m content enjoying a few pints with friends with curved brim hats.

We all make choices. Choose as wisely as you can.

YMMV

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
Look folks, the last thing you want is for you or your organization to become irrelevant in whatever issue you are involved with. How many of you have had your organization fall on deaf ears to the decision makers on a particular issue. BHA is relevant on many of local and national issue's. But they are not only relevant, but a leader because of the respect they command from the various game boards, etc because of the way the organization conducts itself as a collaborator to the decision making body instead of a special interest. BHA is invited to contribute on issue's by national and state decision makers because BHA has an energetic membership willing to participate to help get the job done. It doesn't always go our way, but BHA is willing to sit down with the stakeholders, even those in opposition and try to reach an understanding.

Name calling, derogatory pictures, etc. (like seen here) present no facts, just show a caliber of individuals that have no valuable contribution to any issue (other than drive a wedge into cooperation). It reminds me of another person who likes to get on twitter and do the same, instead of using that energy for something more meaningful.

It's nice to be able to sit down again and have a meaningful discussion on the pro's and con's of any discussion, and people leaving that discussion with respect for each other instead of using a twitter feed or internet forum to cast aspersions.

From: KSflatlander
03-Jan-21
Right on Stix!!! Nailed it.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21
I posted the photo of the prototypical BHA member (sans flat brim) as entertainment. If posting that makes me the "caliber of individual who has no has no valuable contribution to any issue", then so be it. What did you, personally, and BHA as an organization do to try to defeat the wolf proposition? No need to answer, we already know.

I'll do everything in my limited power to oppose 90% of BHA's leftist, green, elitist, lockout agenda, and their support of politicians hell-bent on imposing draconian measures like the Green New Deal, 30 by 30, BLM and reparations.

03-Jan-21
"But they are not only relevant, but a leader because of the respect they command from the various game boards, etc because of the way the organization conducts itself as a collaborator to the decision making body instead of a special interest. BHA is invited to contribute on issue's by national and state decision makers because BHA has an energetic membership willing to participate to help get the job done. It doesn't always go our way, but BHA is willing to sit down with the stakeholders, even those in opposition and try to reach an understanding."

Now that is some world class BS.

I'll continue to support politicians who tell you what they're going to do and then actually do it.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
Dirty Mike, you claim it's BS because the current political leadership has drifted from it.

It's a simple case of 'follow the leader' or 'monkey see, monkey do'. Very sad situation. BHA tries it's best to wade through the dysfunction to produce results.

From: Bowbender
03-Jan-21
"But they are not only relevant, but a leader because of the respect they command from the various game boards, etc because of the way the organization conducts itself as a collaborator to the decision making body instead of a special interest."

Yeah....about that relevance thing. They're not in PA. Like I said they update with news releases and such, but there are many other groups that actually DO something.

"BHA is invited to contribute on issue's by national and state decision makers because BHA has an energetic membership willing to participate to help get the job done."

My conversations with "state decision makers" and in the PGC, when BHA is mentioned is either met with "Who?" or a smile. Have another helping of bullshit, you certainly seem to enjoy it.

From: Scoot
03-Jan-21
Stix, are you in some position of authority at BHA? You seem to post as if you are speaking on behalf of the organization.

BHA has made significant efforts that oppose hunting and hunters. They've also done some things that I'm in favor of. But there are lots of great organizations that don't have slimy and liberal and anti-hunting bed fellows- I'll choose to support them rather than BHA.

From: Trial153
03-Jan-21
Well said Stix. What we see here are individuals filled with rancor by their lack of relevance. The only seat they can see at the table is their own. It's kind of sad to watch such impotence.

From: Bowbender
03-Jan-21
"What we see here are individuals filled with ranco by their lack of relevance. The only seat they can see at the table is their own. It's kind of sad to watch such impotence."

Impotence? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think in means. Here's the reality in PA.

United Bowhunters of PA: Gained two the weeks in November for archery. Gained archery bear season. Gained (2)two weeks archery in September. Instrumental in getting Sunday hunting approved.

Trouth Unlimited: Various stream reclamation/improvement projects. Gained access to wild trout fisheries.

Lancaster Conservancy: Acquired thousands of acres for recreational use, including hunting.

BHA:

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
No, I am not in the leadership of Colorado anymore, but a life member since 2007. I didn't think any of my comments suggested that. I made observations based on my service here in Colorado, helping with projects under the auspices USFS & CPW. I can tell you what the management of those departments have relayed to me on their appreciation of BHA. I can make those observations because I, like most BHA members get involved, and make lasting relationships with folks in positions of decision making. The can count on BHA to augment their mission, not nip at their pant legs to get preferential treatment, as most orgs do. At some point you have to ask yourself what are you doing to give back to conservation, or are you merely a consumptive user interested in your own satisfaction.

I can also speak on my experiences with the PA Game Comm (PGC) as I have deep connections there as being a former resident. PGC was very appreciative of BHA's cooperation with other conservation orgs that led to the approval of Sunday hunting.

03-Jan-21
Standswithaknife and Pete nailed it. Preservation is not conversation. Never has been nor ever will be. Forest management is not preservation driven. It’s management of forest ecosystems for the best benefit of all entity’s. Wildlife and humans alike. The Forest management associated with BHA preservationists has no room for conservation practices. You see it in their politics. You hear it in a lot of the voices that represent the BHA.

I know that probably pisses some members but, it is what it is. And, as a former forest manager, I’ve yet to meet any serious minded, experienced forest ecologists that agrees with much of anything the BHA sells. In both private and government sectors of resource management.

03-Jan-21
According to Stix, the BHA probably convinced Jesus he could walk on water with their great relationships involving people in decision making positions.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21

Stix's Link
No but we truly get involved. Here is one of many projects I've been involved with:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/colorado_backcountry_hunters_anglers_team_up_with_pike_national_forest_usfs_to_protect_habitat_access

I'm not doing this to toot my own horn but to show the typical membership involvement; depth and breadth of BHA's involvement in critical issues.

There are many such projects that go on behind the scenes with little public knowledge that BHA gets involved in to protect local assets across North America. Over my 14 years as a member, I've been involved with a couple dozen, ranging from restoring fencing on public land to prevent livestock intrusion to sensitive big game habitat, cleaning up of recreational shooting debris left behind by irresponsible gun owners, CPW aerial big game counts, public education of hunting in areas of the state not so friendly to hunters. Helping USFS and BLM personnel maintain motorized recreation areas to give ATV enthusiasts a place to enjoy without having to encroach on closed areas, even the clean-up of illegal marijuana grow operations on public land. The membership young, vibrant, enthusiastic, passionate are truly the boots on the ground.

As I said you have to ask yourself, what role you play in maintaining conservation? active participant? consumptive user? indifferent? jawbone? or legbone?

At the very least, all BHA members have the opportunity to get involved in email and letter writing campaigns on important issues.

At anytime there is some project being worked on with BHA help in all areas, now that we have chapters in 48 states.

I am glad you all are prolonging this discussion. It's good publicity when facts are put forth to dispel the falsehoods. Who was it that said you can judge your achievements by the response of your enemies?

Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21
Trial wins the prize for most incoherent post since the demise of TBM. Congratulations!

03-Jan-21
I applaud the signs. Great job. Now, if you can interject the BHA into every issue you find deem-able, why can’t the BHA stand with hunters on pivotable legislation like wolf introduction in CO?

Stix, it’s a serious question.

From: Trial153
03-Jan-21
Lou, I would shoot for a$$hole of the year, but you already have that buttoned up.

From: Bowbender
03-Jan-21
Wow. Ya’ll hung 16 signs and picked up trash. Musta been exhausting. You want to tout that as an achievement, go right ahead.

Ton of groups out there that do 10x as much without ties to anti hunting and left wing environmental groups.

My last flintlock hunt, I filled a green contractor bag with trash at the public parking area. Maybe I should put out a newsletter.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
BHA's involvement was a position statement against ballot box conservation, well publicized on several social media outlets. Again, not something all would be aware of unless you were tuned in to shared social medial groups, ie: sierra club, trout unlimited, National wildlife federation and the like. These are the people that needed to be reached with proper facts as they are a pivotal bloc. Unfortunately we could not overcome the amount of non conservation minded folks in the population centers. I partially blame this on some of the other organizations who solicited funding but their efforts were unwisely chosen. Such as sending out literature and information to sportsmens groups who were already conservation friendly. But at least BHA made progress with folks who were 'on the fence' or downright hostile to scientific wildlife conservation.

Bowbender, this was just one effort, go to the BHA website, click on any state and Canadian province chapters, and you will find dozens of projects that each chapter has been involved with in the issues and events tab, as well as efforts nationally.

03-Jan-21
I was aware of the Mission statement. However, it in no way took the position of defending hunters. Only political banter for a group that openly wanted wolves in CO. You gotta remember, I read those words on one of your posts before you edited it out.

Stix, I wander with all the BHA’s influence, what would have happened if the BHA had stated they were on the side of hunters in that matter. Instead of the ole safe bull crap you are calling a mission statement.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21

Stix's Link
chapter link attached: https://www.backcountryhunters.org/chapters

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
The mission statement was only one part of it. As I said the most effective effort was focused on several social media outlets. Again, not something all would be aware of unless you were tuned in to shared social medial groups, ie: sierra club, trout unlimited, National wildlife federation and the like. These are the people that needed to be reached with proper facts as they are a pivotal bloc.

I think the using of the hunting part of the equation is not as effective to people who are in the 90% non hunting category. They don't understand hunting, but they do understand scientific wildlife management vs ballot box management. If you use the title "we don,t want wolves because we want more elk for us to kill", then you've already lost a good portion of the non-hunters. It's only a sustainable argument to hunters.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
I gotta sign off. Football game on I want to watch. Good night all, Ice fishing in the AM

03-Jan-21
“Well said Stix. What we see here are individuals filled with rancor by their lack of relevance. The only seat they can see at the table is their own. It's kind of sad to watch such impotence.“

“Lou, I would shoot for a$$hole of the year, but you already have that buttoned up.“

Dunno... kinda sounds like impotent rancor to me. As far as a$$hole of the year, it’s Jan 3rd. Lou seems to strive for excellence in all endeavors, but... even taking that into account... isn’t it a little early to call?

And... not to parse words... seems to me that he’s got valid points and reasoning.

So I must be an a$$hole as well. I’ll have to ask the wife.

She and the kids think Lou’s some special stuff. Maybe I’ll get an upgrade.

From: Bowbender
03-Jan-21
Stix,

I checked out the PA Chapter site. And their Facebook page as well. Nothing but press releases that other outdoor groups provide. Same with upcoming votes on enviro issues. I will say the FB page does have quite a few invites for pint night.

You speak as though the word action is only a noun. It’s a verb as well.

03-Jan-21
Lou,

Serious question regarding all of this, give me a minute please....

In the past you have pointed out changing demographics, mainly aging hunters and the disastrous future impact this will have on license revenue and managing wildlife numbers. I don’t pretend to understand the complexities of the wolf issue, but is there any possibility that game departments, other entities like BHA, see the necessity of managing deer and elk herds as hunter numbers decline dramatically with assistance from natural predators? Many believe pressure from insurance companies, Ag associations etc. want herd numbers down, but I have read articles and talked with biologists who will tell you out of control herds are having an impact on habitat like forests that will have decades of changes such as deer eating valuable tree sprouts such as oaks and not touching less desirable species. Game departments have to be as concerned with this as they do hunting opportunities, right? As someone pointed out already, it seems we only care about hunting.

Lou, you are one of the accomplished hunters I highly respect on this site. I am just a couple years younger, and will never accomplish what you have. But, I don’t care how a person wears their hat, or crunches on granola, or only hunts occasionally. Seems these might be better allies potentially than antis. That’s what I mean by ‘Old Man Syndrome’, the my way or the highway approach will leave us with fewer allies in the long run, and really, place at greater risk for what we proclaim to be sacred to us. JMHO, and again I don’t pretend to understand the issues from my perch in KS. Thanks.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21
362 days left in the year. If I can hang onto A$$hole of the Year for all that time, considering the strong competition, it will be some kind of a record! Will I get a plaque or trophy to put next to my other (....) of the Year awards? That would be really cool!

Think BHA will back my AOY campaign if I donate money to AOC? Or their ugly sister organization, Sierra Club?

03-Jan-21
Hahahahahahaha.. lou that is hilarious.

From: Orion
03-Jan-21
Dave Peterson who was the founder of the Colorado chapter was instrumental in getting our spring bear hunt removed. This, and their non position on wolves should tell you everything you need to know about them. Also their financials are a joke.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21
Frank, let's look at one part of the equation with which I'm intimately familiar. CPW stated that lack of access to elk is a major piece of the problem with elk herds over objective. They stated that as the hunting population ages, they are unable to reach places where elk hole up after being hammered for a month by younger, go-getter bowhunters who push elk further from roads or onto private land.

Meanwhile, the roads that historically allowed older hunters to access more public land are being closed at a breakneck pace, which in-turn concentrates hunters into fewer and fewer areas they can access on foot. If they do venture back in and kill an elk, they have great difficulty getting one out.

Read that carefully. It isn't something I made up, but rather came from the CPW. It virtually mirrors the BHA agenda of closing roads, locking out access, making hunting something only for the young and super fit or those who can afford to pay outfitters.

BHA's position on wolves is silence. The national leadership is quiet because wolves are a symbol of the environmentalist Left in league with BHA leadership. The state simply issued an oatmeal mush statement about NAMWC. Not opposition to wolf forcing. Meanwhile, at the same time the national leadership supports the closing of millions of acres of hunting access to all but the super fit and/or wealthy, and supports the installation of massive wind and solar farms on public land.

BHA may do some good things. They get a lot of young people buzzed on beer. Cool. I was there once too. But their war on older hunters and their support for massive public land wind and solar farms are the primary reasons why I am adamantly against their agenda.

From: KSflatlander
03-Jan-21
Lou- can you provide examples of BHA support on massive wind and solar projects on public land? Serious question.

From: Glunt@work
03-Jan-21
HFW

I'm not sure "My way or the highway" is limited to seasoned hunters. Spend a few minutes reading comments on the BHA Facebook page on any topic that is political or splits folks views and that 18% young Democrat portion gets pretty intolerant. Seems about 22% of the 23% Republican membership apparently don't own computers or smart phones, or don't use Facebook.

I agree with BHA often enough but also disagree often enough. Hunters are generally conservative and environmentalists are generally liberal. No one is really surprised that BHA isn't for everyone in a place like this. "Another Year in the Fur Shed" wouldn't exactly go over great on the Sierra Club site even though trappers love the outdoors.

03-Jan-21
I appreciate your response, and honestly, it makes sense that it appears to be double talk on their part. I only say ‘appears’ as I suspect that might have a different perspective.

Let me share an experience that might have some merit in this discussion.

For more than 20 years I had access to hunt private properties in KS and MO. But I could see the writing on the wall, clearly. As deer hunting gained in popularity, access became much more difficult. Leasing was castigated as the ruin of hunting. I took it in stride, and since hunting is a way of life for me, Robin and I purchased land as we knew the owners we hunted on were only getting older.

And what I soon realized is that hunters that owned land on average are much better stewards of the land, and hence the wildlife. As a result an entire new industry sprang up helping enhance habitat/wildlife management. And what great partners we have become to our state game agencies, and how successful we are on average. I bet you caught my thread today?

I think the results of hunting deer becoming more popular and causing a movement towards the importance of private land management has been a win/win for wildlife and hunters. Yet, there are detractors...the guys who say we only want to shoot big bucks, not everyone can afford land, yada, yada in perpetuity. I laugh when some of those detractors call themselves conservatives. Very few of us could not obtain what we are willing to work and sacrifice for.

My point I guess is times change, we either adjust to continue making a difference or reduce ourselves to complaining.

I get your point about aging and needing an ebike to get to the places elk go to when pressured. For me I use a lighter weight bow now in cold weather. It sucks getting old, it sucks even worse to get old with a bad attitude, IMHO.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21

Jaquomo's Link
Here's the statement from the BHA website supporting the Public Lands Renewable Enwrgy Development bill.

From: Orion
03-Jan-21
Stix I'm curious how much land has BHA actually opened up in Colorado?

From: Stix
03-Jan-21

Stix's embedded Photo
Stix's embedded Photo

From: Trial153
03-Jan-21

Trial153's Link
Just like oil and gas, renewable energy is unfortunately going to be extracted on public lands. A person could either read the contents of the bill or they can just spin it to suit their tired narrative like Lou does. Even a dimwit should understand that if your not seated at the table your on the menu.

So here is a synopsis....

Questions and uncertainties are circulating around the purpose of the bill and it’s important to understand that this legislation doesn’t drive new development or endorse one energy source over another, but sets more protective standards for renewable energy projects than exist currently while ensuring that we prioritize conservation.

From: Orion
03-Jan-21
so Stix how much land has BHA opened up in Colorado?

From: Stix
03-Jan-21

Stix's Link
It's half-time so, BHA was a lead partner with state land board in opening up land access.

From: KSflatlander
03-Jan-21
Free m your link:

“Our support of this legislation is not an endorsement of energy development itself but a set of important guidelines that must be followed when development does occur. PLREDA incentivizes responsible development, creates more rigorous conservation standards that consider fish and wildlife — something that doesn’t currently exist for any energy development sector — and could facilitate more realistic competition across market conditions at any given time.“

Your link clearly states that the legislation is not promoting energy development on public land. It calls for development to be done responsibly if it does occur. It doesn’t sound like they are promoting development?

From: Stix
03-Jan-21

Stix's Link
More

From: Stix
03-Jan-21

Stix's Link
Also.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
See above links Orion, and thanks for the opportunity to further publicize BHA's efforts to benefit hunters in Colorado and elsewhere.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21
Guess it depends upon how you interpret their response, Which is the same mealy-mush response from them when they don't want to take a stand. They are supporting a bill that incentivizes development of wind and solar farms on public land (their analysis), while at the same time saying they don't endorse energy development, itself. "Incentivizies"? Bullspit. That's a synonym for "promoting". They could have simply said they are against all massive solar and wind developments on PUBLIC land, because of the disruption to the land, fish, and wildlife. Position stated. They're supposed to be the public land guardians.

Instead, in a roundabout way they are endorsing it while hiding behind the old "it's going to happen anyway, so we might as well accept it and trust government officials to do the right thing".

BHA could have made a similar statement opposing the wolf forcing initiative in CO. Instead, they sat on the sidelines, which is effectively tacit endorsement of wolf forcing.

From: Glunt@work
03-Jan-21
Actually, the legislation is to promote developing energy on public lands. It's the first sentence of the bill: "To promote the development of renewable energy on public lands, and for other purposes.". BHA's stance is that by supporting the legislation they are supporting the parts that require more "responsible" development, not supporting development it's self.

03-Jan-21
Stix bro you have to address the anti-hunting stance and partnering with antis.. you keep not answering these topics and it’s become very apparent..this is exactly what the left does when they go on vacation during their own lockdowns.. please explain what a so called pro hunting organizations would EVER stand WITH the Sierra Club IF in fact they were prohunting. In this instance you cannot have it both ways.

From: Orion
03-Jan-21
one of those links had nothing to do with BHA opening up any land. You also still never addressed Dave Peterson starting the Colorado chapter and helping with getting our spring bear hunt cancelled. You have also not mentioned why BHA wouldn't take a stance on wolves or donate to any anti-wolf campaigns if they truly had hunters interest. Their financials are also a joke, but i'm sure you will spin that also.

From: Orion
03-Jan-21
I'd suggest many of you head over to Rokslide where you can see how BHA is perceived and not Stix's imaginery way.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
What anti-huntimg stance are you specifically referring to from BHA?

Seems to me you guys get one question answered than you deflect off to another. Like trying to prosecute on trumped up charges. The circular logic is what needs to stop.

It's not doing you well in trying to justify your case.

It would be better just to come out and say you don't agree with BHA because of the divisive politics and vitriol associated with it.

From: KSflatlander
03-Jan-21
Lou- Thanks for your response. What is your stance on oil and natural gas development on public lands? Are you also against that?

From your link:

“Question: Does PLREDA incentivize more energy development on our public lands versus conserving fish and wildlife habitat?

Answer: No. PLREDA ensures that energy development on our public lands includes responsible mitigation of impacts to fish and wildlife habitat while driving royalties to impacted communities and wildlife habitat. However, PLREDA does incentivize responsibly sited renewable energy development in areas of high energy potential and low impact on fish and wildlife habitat.“

“ Question: Under Section 9 of PLREDA, the Secretaries of the Interior and Agriculture require production of 25 gigawatts. Is this a new mandate? Does it incentivize the production of renewable energy on public lands?

Answer: Section 9 of PLREDA does state that a minimum of 25 gigawatts (GW) of electricity will be produced from solar, wind and geothermal. This is not a mandate, but a science-based projection for renewable energy production through 2025 based on existing projects and expectations for the next 5 years.

Under the Energy Policy Act of 2005, the Bush Administration set a goal to permitting 10 GW of renewables by 2015. This was met. During the Obama administration, the goal was set to 20 GW by 2020. Following this reasonable projection and timeline, PLREDA sets the goal once again to 25 GW by 2025. Over the years, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) has changed the way they record permitted GW on public lands. Currently, the BLM states that an estimated 12 GW are already permitted.

If we evaluate the additional 13 GW needed to reach the new 25 GW goal by 2025 and we only look at solar PV, at 7.9 acres/MW (based on an estimate for projects >20 MW in size from a National Renewable Energy Laboratory study), this requires an additional 102,700 acres of solar development. While this is not an insignificant number, BLM has already established 700,000 acres of Designated Leasing Areas (aka priority areas or zones) for solar development on public lands.

All development has impacts and while no legislative vehicle is perfect, PLREDA will put measures in place that consider fish and wildlife as a priority instead of an afterthought and predesignate priority development areas to prevent avoidable conflict.”

Sounds like conservation over preservation to me.

03-Jan-21

standswittaknife's Link
Always.. always follow the $

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
The bear initiative in Colorado was instituted in 1993 I believe. BHA was formed in 2004. The Colorado chapter came into being in 2006. At the time of the spring bear hunting movement, David and others envisioned it not as a ban, but restrictions on the basis of scientific wildlife mgnt. An agreement was agreed upon by all parties, sportsmen groups included. It wasn't until folks like Denny Berens and others took a no agreement stance that the bear protection folks took it to the ballot. David Petersen helped usher the compromise that was acceptable to all parties that would have protected the spring bear hunt.

03-Jan-21
Glunt and Lou said it right. The Bill itself is directed at developing energy production off public lands. It says so right off the bat. So, how could anyone say different?

The reason for their statement on the bill is to show their donors they are indeed looking out for their best interests. To show the Sierra clubs they indeed hold the same beliefs that fossil fuels bad.

That flippin’ statement is the definition of oxymoron. Solar and wind cannot begin to compete with the efficiency and low costs of natural gas and coal generated power. Nor can any of the green sources compete environmentally with gas and mineral resources on the wildlife benefit they produce when reclaiming those sites. It is a lie to say any different Not to mention the sheer size of ground needed for wind and solar projects in comparison to mining and gas welling.

The only thing that link ensures and proves us the BHA on a National level is a political think tank. Nothing more.

03-Jan-21
Stix, you should have run for Congress. You tend to suggest the BHA needs credit for everything positive but, Denys or totally over looks the things they are responsible for.

FWIW, do you have any sources claiming what you have about the effectiveness of the BHA, that’s not generated by the BHA?

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
Lou please read my post above regarding spring bear issue and correct any errors. I wasn't in Colorado at the time, still in PA til 1994 and don't want to spread any misinformation. I'm relying on hearsay.

From: KSflatlander
03-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
Lou- in the link is an article from someone from Sierra Club talking about there assumptions about hunters being wrong. You should read it. They actually went and TALKED to hunters and in the end starting hunting themselves. They learned that stereotypes about hunters are just that...stereotypes. Looking for commonalities instead of differences can go a long way to change people’s minds.

From: KSflatlander
03-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
Standswitta- Your link only discusses allegations by a right wing group (Environmental Policy Alliance; Green Decoy). So it’s only allegations. Do you know if BHA was ever found guilty of tax related issues? It sounds like the Tax complaint by the right wing group in your link went nowhere.

Kind of like Trumps voter fraud allegations.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-21
Stix, it was in '92, and the bear people brought it to the Wildlife Commission as a proposal to ban spring bear hunting. The Commission told them to pound sand, so they decided to put it on the ballot and include hounds and fall baiting.

Here's a quote from a recent interview. "Back in the early 1990s I campaigned hard for a state ballot initiative that outlawed spring hunting, baiting, and hounding of bears. We won overwhelmingly".

Petersen is an ethicist who also happens to hunt for food. He is against baiting and trophy hunting, calling SCI "childish and shameful" while discounting the huge amount of money those "rich fat cats (his phrase) generate" to fight poaching and support wildlife management in Africa.

He is also obviously an outspoken proponent of foot-travel only in the backcountry. That's a luxury afforded to someone like him who owns property adjoining National Forest which blocks access to the general public but allows him to hunt on foot from his home (and as I understand it from people who know him personally - please correct me if I'm wrong).

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
Thanks Lou, it's one issue that I wasn't exactly sure of my facts so I needed help. My point was Bear issue came to be in 1992, probably first gained momentum in 1991. BHA formed 13 years later with Colorado chapter formed in 2006, 14 years after the spring bear hunt being banned approved by voters of Colorado.

From: Stix
03-Jan-21
Good night everyone. These threads give me headaches.

03-Jan-21
BHA news letters only contain the thoughts and opinions of left wing nut jobs. “Conservationists” that probably don’t hold many accredited degrees or, one ounce of real world experience amongst them, involving anything related to forest ecology or natural resource management. If they did, they wouldn’t be preaching preservation as a broad goal for vast chunks of public land.

People spend time outdoors to see wild things. Would the average hiker, biker, back packer, etc.... rather spend a weekend in the woods where they saw many species of animals in good numbers. Or, would they rather see few animals and even less diversity in species mix? I know the answer. So does everyone else. To achieve the former, more preferred example, it takes conservation. Not preservation.

From: KSflatlander
03-Jan-21
Where has BHA preached preservation or opposed conservation? Any specifics?

04-Jan-21
By the way to all, stix and I disagree on this issue and by no means am I attempting to disparage his work in Colorado as I believe he spends a ton of time educating and helping. He is a good advocate for all Hunters. If you follow him at all you’d know this. That does not mean I agree with BCH at all, but I do appreciate him.

In addition, my link was not to point out the tax issues, but those of the actual donors to this club. Following the money means just that.. see who is giving to this group.. The tax issues are irrelevant. Do your own research and see who has and is still funding this group. They are not aligned with the everyday hunter. I would consider myself an extreme backcountry hunter. I bivy far away from other hunters, pack in with my exo mtn gear pack, kenetrek boots, titanium stove, seek outside tent, and do everything that this group advocates as the real experience. (I do bend my bill though) At first I did join, was a member, until I actually reviewed them deep down. I reviewed their financials (a mess) asked the right questions, and emailed the Colorado chapter. I was especially vocal during all of the rounds of wolves.. and never once received a response. What I found out is this group aligns themselves more with radical eco maniacs than I’d like to admit. This group will, in my opinion, align themselves in the long term with anti hunting ecologists in the sense that if you don’t close every road, make all parts wilderness, and fully limit opportunities to extreme experiences, they’ll stand against you. This will, therefore, limiting the right for all hunters. I have a daughter with a spinal cord injury and cannot experience these places as her legs just don’t work like “normal” people’s but I can take her into some pristine country to enjoy the outdoors. If BCH had their way, all of these roads that I would take her on would be closed to all motorized traffic. Am I saying they are intentionally leaving behind anyone with a disability...no... but do they really care if they do... no...

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-21
Ks, that link was interesting, and thanks for posting. His is a noble, but unachievable wish considering the deep divide between our tribes. My new wife was a lefty vegetarian, is now an avid hunter and conservative. It happens, but far less than we would hope.

One REALLY interesting quote in his essay though. "or to carve them up with more logging roads or gas wells". Funny, but he didn't mention carving up public lands with wind farms, solar farms, and thousands of miles of new transmission lines and roads to build and service all these monstrosities. Suppose that is PC acceptable "carving"?

Serious question for you - have you done any studies on avoidance of operating wind turbine farms by deer, elk, etc.. as they have done in Europe? I have some really disturbing study papers but can't figure out how to post a PDF.

From: Glunt@work
04-Jan-21
Interesting comments at the bottom of the article you posted KS. Some liked the article and its message, others hated it and were pissed that Sierra Club would stoop so low as to publish anything remotely pro hunting.

From: Grasshopper
04-Jan-21
I don't follow them to closely anymore, ever since they kicked me off their facebook page for repeatedly pointing out errors in their "scientific logic". It was censorship, no point in publicizing truth if it doesn't align with your agenda. There was so much rhetoric about how the latest wilderness bill would increase the elk herd, while no mention was made of elk population being primarily driven by private land winter range, not summer range in wilderness. When your members are young, they are easy to sway.

Dave Petersens BHA mantra is "habitat, habitat, habitat", yet you can't manage habitat in wilderness, and the critical habitat is on private winter ground, not wilderness.

So glad they were instrumental in getting us more access to overgrazed state trust lands that no one in the public felt were worth leasing the rec rights too.

And then, they actually sued the feds to close Colorado ATV trails that provided hunter access.

I am on the CPW public access working group right now, last meeting the BHA rep goes off into the absolutley wrong direction of offering up more landowner vouchers for access incentives! Landowners were drooling over that comment. They already get 25% of the tags on the plains, 20% west of 25. Great, lets privatize the wildlife in exchange for access for the guys that buy the tags when they already have it in voucher regulation? WTF?

Due to the political climate here in Colorado, this access working group is so diverse we don't have many hunters on it. But the land trusts, and folks who don't hunt big game sure are on it. Up hill battle, that surely stix will claim as a BHA success story whatever the outcome after CBA/CWF (me & kent ingram)fought for years to get this.

04-Jan-21
I’ve been on just about every highway in the southwest as my mom and I spent a month each summer exploring the SW and I’ve traveled it now for decades that I’ve seen so damn much of it.

There are plenty of public land areas to develop wind and solar on public lands. There’s a ton of desolate desert badlands that are basically worthless for anything else and are very scarce for sake of wildlife and are so vast in their 10s of thousands of square miles that some solar and wind farms are not going to hurt a damn thing.

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-21
Cracks me up that David Petersen continually rails about humans building homes and living in wildlife habitat, when he lives in a subdivided parcel in the middle of big game habitat. But then, "Do as I say, not as I do" seems to be a popular mantra these days.

From: Scoot
04-Jan-21
This thread reaffirms one thing for me-- it's much more difficult to convince someone they are fooled than it is to actually fool them. BHA members who are hunters tend to eventually wise up or (more commonly) double down on their insistence that BHA is a group working for hunters good. I have a couple buddies who wised up and figured out what the group is really about. Admitting that BHA is, at best a complicated group that has extremely strange bed fellows or much worse, a sham of an organization that has a liberal agenda and is, at it's roots, anti-hunting, would be humiliating to so many of those who paid their membership fees...

From: Glunt@work
04-Jan-21
BHA isn't anti hunting. Just like Trout Unlimited isn't anti fishing but...you likely aren't making the TU calendar with a Zebco 808, a container of crawlers and a "Stop the Steal" hat no matter how dedicated you are.

From: KSflatlander
04-Jan-21
Standswitta- a year ago there was an anti-BHA thread on BS. I had not heard of them. Because of the anti-BHA thread, I did do a deep dive into their financials and actions and decided to join. If your deep dive was Green Decoys then you should do a deep dive into them and their funding.

Lou- all of the wind research/studies I have done personally has been with birds and bats...no big game. However, I have seen some presentations on wind siting and big game migration interactions. I’ll see if I can find it and send to you via PM.

I understand your reason for not personally joining BHA. However, I do not understand your stereotyping and disparaging other hunters who may or may not be BHA members. You make it sound as if the only hunters that matter to you are the ones who look, think, act, and are the same age as you. That’s not going to expand the coalition of hunters.

04-Jan-21
Hunters have never been the most intelligent group. They routinely support agencies who are actually against them. And, some even vote liberal socialist, if one can believe that. Totally ignorant !

From: KSflatlander
04-Jan-21

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-21
Ks, the hunters that matter to me are the millions of older hunters who are being systematically shut out of places they grew up hunting because of all the land lockups and arbitrary road closures, and who are now being crowded into fewer and fewer accessible places to hunt, or forced to pay outfitters. Younger hunters will take care of themselves, or drop out. They don't seem to care that the backcountry is now more crowded with hunters than ever before, despite dwindling hunter numbers overall.

There is one organization that includes hunters, has "hunters" in the name, that is advocating for this restrictive discrimination against older hunters all across the West. "Get out of the way and take up golf", they seem to be saying. "Habitat" is the straw man, but the same habitat existed when hunting access was allowed. "Roadless" is the mantra, and I agree that roadless is a good thing. I love hunting areas closed to vehicles.

But as with many zealot-led movements, this one is going to far. Now that the movement has crept up into the upper levels of USFS (led by the people who studied Natural Resources with me in the 70s, when the eco-movement was trendy and gaining steam) the wave is washing over the bow.

USFS just came into my area and cut down hundreds of trees to try to block our access to a popular HIKING trail, because they were afraid someone would illegally ride ATVs in there. That's the overboard I'm referring to, and BHA is all for that type of overreach, in virtually every direction. I wish I could see a way to support them, but the more I dig in, the less about them I like.

From: Stix
04-Jan-21
I am really glad on the direction of civility this thread is going. There are folks here that don't agree with BHA's position on issues, and they are being presented in a civil manner. When that happens people are not only less repulsed, but also do not get vulgarly defensive in their response. It allows opposing sides and folks outside the fray to make a good decision, not shun away .

I used to be a chief offender of this. I think every time I spend time in Canada I get a little more civil. What I see there is even though people have opposing positions, they are far less divisive and polarized in their attitudes.

It's really nice to see the harshness is subsiding. People don't need to be at each others throats.

04-Jan-21
Stix,

Just had a conversation with a friend on the phone and we both said the discussions here have been more civil lately. We appreciate that as well.

Lou, I agree with your example, that is overboard. Balance is key!

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-21
I have some really good friends who are BHA members, and there are some redeeming qualities in all. I even have a couple friends who voted for Biden...

Ks, the study I have in PDF was done in Europe, and was a before and after study incorporating small animals, birds, and roe deer. Small animals were less affected by the turbines, but roe deer pretty much avoided them after installation, with an average 700 yard buffer from any turbine.

Frank, the trail connects from our private property to a network of trails open to motor vehicles 200 yards from our property boundary. The trail to our boundary was always shown as a numbered USFS trail on USFS maps until recently, when USFS decided to end the official trail 200 yards from our boundary and vacate the ROW. After spending all the money to cut down hundreds of trees to close our foot and horse access (the only legal access through our easement) they told us we arent allowed to cut a trail through all the fallen timber, and the dog hair timber on either side of the trail is virtually impassable. They won't give us a straight answer as to why they did this. Overreach. But this has nothing to do with BHA, of course.

From: KSflatlander
04-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
Lou- thanks for the explanation and I better understand your point of view. I understand why you don't like BHA. Makes sense based on your experience.

I sent you some links about big game interactions with wind turbines. You will have to do some more digging into the links to get to the sources and full scientific study. I would like to see the Europe study if you can send me the name of the research paper. I'm curious to know if the roe deer that avoided the turbines by 700 yards were first generation post-construction. I would expect existing deer (first generation post-construction) to maybe avoid the new "thing" on the landscape. I'm guessing but it would be better to know over 2,3,4 generations how the deer population reacted. Did they become habituated to it over time? My guess is that they would the same as they do at airports. However, properly siting wind and solar farms (any energy project for that matter) is necessary to avoid or minimize (conservation) impacts. If BHA is signing on to legislation (PLREDA) that forces or put pressure on energy companies to consider big game impacts when siting then I'm all for it. I for it because there are always bad actors in every industry that care about $$$ then doing what is right. Those are regulations that I don't think need to be "de-regulated."

I'll third the civility thing and also admit that I have been the problem on occasion. Good discussion on this thread today. I may not agree with you but I understand better why you feel the way you feel and respect your opinion. However, we still should "pass it on" even if they have a flat brim. If you connect with them maybe they will put some curve in their bill so they can see your prospective better.

Take care.

04-Jan-21
Lou,

Terrible!

You might have ticked someone off in the BHA who called someone....

Just kidding of course. Bureaucracy, nothing else needs to be said. Why we need small government.

04-Jan-21
I think if the BHA wants to attract actual hunters instead of greenies dressed up as hunters, they should hire an agent or pr guru to clean up their image. Because their reputation stinks amongst most constitution freedom 2a loving hunters who want nothing to do with wolves, grizzlies and mountain lions and love their big 4wd trucks and blazing their trails on their atv’s.

From: KSflatlander
04-Jan-21
“Because their reputation stinks amongst most constitution freedom 2a loving hunters who want nothing to do with wolves, grizzlies and mountain lions and love their big 4wd trucks and blazing their trails on their atv’s.“

Because the reputation of hunters that see no value in anything except big game, antler scores, and kill all predators is more endearing. Yeah, ok.

05-Jan-21
...because those of us who Know that the 2A matters and believe that wolves, lions and bear need to be managed are, of course, simpletons.

I, for one, don’t own an ATV, but do find my 4WD SUV to be more utilitarian for work and where I go.

And in spite of the opinion held by you and my wife, several people do find me to be endearing.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
OB, you have endeared yourself to me numerous times and I would still love you even if you went flat-brim and put a "Public Land Owner" decal on your rig. That's how us conservatives roll! ;-)

05-Jan-21
LMAO!! Thanks Lou. No flat brim. No manscaping.

Very appreciative of any Platonic, non-contact, heterosexual love that I can get. And I’m not just saying that to get your hunting spots on public land.

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
I totally disagree that partnering with opposing groups to get legislation passed on common interest is a bad idea. In fact, it's smart politics. Partners don't have to agree on others stance. Here's my point:

AOC voted for the Great American Outdoors Act. Only 2 democrats in the house voted against it, but over 100 republicans in the house voted against it. These facts are easily found by searching the internet.

Since this was considered the "Holy Grail of conservation legislation" as was stated earlier. Would you consider AOC or any of the east coast liberals fully supportive of hunting? Probably not, but there are parts of the bill they all agreed upon.

But equally as important, are the 100+ R's that voted against the bill considered anti-hunting? Probably no, but their conservative fiscal philosophy was in conflict with some of the bills parts.

Now if BHA partners with Sierra Club or some of the other Green groups out there to put an initiative forward, does that mean that their views align on all issues? No. It just makes good sense to have the additional energy of other groups to benefit the mutually agreeable causes.

My point: Some of the most conservative republicans and the most liberally minded democrats teamed together to pass a bill they mutually supported.

05-Jan-21
Whatever KS. Bottom line is you are a liberal dressed up and pretending to be a hunter. As I said, hire a pr guy to clean up the image if the BHA truly wants to unite hunters and anglers. Otherwise the BHA will continue to be known as an elitist extension of groups like PETA and HSUS and the USFWS and continue to divide while remaining connected to the lies that introduced an invasive wolf species into the lower 48 that was never there previously. This is indisputable. The American people have been and continue to be lied to. If the BHA wants to support that lie and the green new deal, then they are no friend to hunters and anglers.

05-Jan-21
Stix - I can’t speak for others, but for me, the issue with BHA isn’t that strange bedfellows can help where a mutually agreeable cause comes up.

My issue is that BHA seems to frequently hang with those bedfellows with regard to issues that are crucial to the HUNTER portion of Backcountry HUNTERS and Anglers... contrary to what seems to me to be at least half of their purported constituencies.

Thus, I don’t support them with my hard earned money.

From: Skippy
05-Jan-21
We need a like button, it would be a good way to show some appreciation for the common sense threads without having to post a reply.

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
Please show a factual specific instance where BHA has shown support for this green new deal. Please show a specific instance where the BHA has sided with an anti hunting org, on a hunting related issue. I'm talking specific facts where the organization has lobbied for a stance that is an anti Biological support of hunting. (Not some persons efforts who was unaffiliated BHA 17 years ago).

I posted what were actual links from local issues such as the wolf reintro in Colorado, Habitat improvement projects, etc. State and federal issues.

If you are gonna use the 'strange bedfellows' argument, then you will have to throw you support away from and oppose all the republicans and Trump, because they voted in support of something that AOC, and the rest of the 'stupid squad' supported, such as the Great American Outdoors Act and Trump signed it.

Also if you use an argument that what some person has done int the past is equal to his present views (David Petersen), then you will absolutely have to oppose Trump because he was a former NYC elitist democrat, with opposition to pro-life, opposition to targeted tax cuts, opposition to gun rights, etc.

Don't forget, Trump had a very close personal relationship with the Clinton's, and he donated money to Bill (president) and Hillary's (senate) campaigns.

People change.

05-Jan-21
Who’s talking Trump? Where does that belong in this discussion?

From: txhunter58
05-Jan-21
“Because the reputation of hunters that see no value in anything except big game, antler scores, and kill all predators is more endearing.“

I am not for killing all predators. Cause I AM a predator. Antis seem to forget that. I am a NATURAL predator as much as a wolf or a cougar. And because this is a bowhunting forum, one with our Native American ancestors as a predator.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
David Petersen hasn't changed. If anything, he has gone further in the other direction. When he publicly threw the CBA and CPW under the bus in his Denver Post editorial because the CBA WAS TRYING TO KEEP STATUS QUO in the new season structure discussions, he lurched over the cliff.

To me, he epitomizes the core BHA mindset - Do it our way or you are (his exact words) "unsophisticated when it comes to biology and politics, always seeking more opportunity while refusing to sacrifice anything for the long-term good".

Thankfully he and BHA are here to explain to us what those sacrifices are.

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
you have to remember, that the CBA is another special interest group that I talked about in the previous post that are continually nipping at the pant legs of CPW. They also had a host in great number of other stakeholders who were asking for strict restrictions on the bow hunting seasons. With that being said Bowhunters in Colorado are very fortunate that's the only loss of the bow hunting season was one day. there was a lot of other special interest groups trying to cut it to two weeks total. I believe this is why BHA has found so much favor with CPW. They don't represent groups that are trying to look out for their own seasons regardless of the other stakeholders inputs

From: Glunt@work
05-Jan-21
"I believe this is why BHA has found so much favor with CPW. "They don't represent groups that are trying to look out for their own seasons regardless of the other stakeholders inputs"

Absolutely the CBA is a special interest group but there are some ardent special interest groups more vocal and doing a lot more than nipping at pant legs, who seem to have won tremendous favor with the CPW.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
"I believe this is why BHA has found so much favor with CPW. "They don't represent groups that are trying to look out for their own seasons regardless of the other stakeholders inputs""

Ummm... BHA is nothing but a special interest group trying to push their own agenda, regardless of other stakeholders inputs. That's what they are all about...

From: Scoot
05-Jan-21
"BHA is nothing but a special interest group trying to push their own agenda, regardless of other stakeholders inputs. That's what they are all about..."

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!!!

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
True, but BHA's interests align with CPW's mission objectives.: Let the game managers decide through science who, what, where, and how long seasons should be. That is the core mission of the CPW, but unfortunately the nipping at the pant legs persist from special interest regardless of what's biologically sound. BHA isn't weapon specific, species specific etc. Just science specific. That's why we have found favor with game depts across North America.

From: Glunt@work
05-Jan-21
Season lengths and who gets the tags is based on a lot of factors outside science and biology and the CPW and Commission would be the first to confirm that.

Of course BHA is a special interest group. Maybe not on hunting topics (although they fo

From: KSflatlander
05-Jan-21
Trophyhill- I’m not “a liberal dressed up and pretending to be a hunter.” I’m a liberal bowhunter. Scary huh?

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-21
Just think if we had more liberal hunters. Then we'd be down to only baby killing and taxes to argue about.

Matt

05-Jan-21
Did you guys see WI is going to set a wolf season for this Fall/Winter?

From: Glunt@work
05-Jan-21
I did . WI has a law that if they aren't federally protected, they have to hold a season.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
Saw that. Bet you $10 that wolf delisting will be overturned by summer and an Obama-appointed judge will shut that hunt down. And BHA leadership will sing Hosanna and praise Deb Haaland, while taking credit for their efforts in making that happen.

I take cash, personal check (from you!) and Paypal.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-21
Wouldn't re-listing the wolves throw a wrinkle in the Colorado reintroduction program?

Lou, I'll take your bet, and hope that I lose.

Matt

From: Scoot
05-Jan-21
No chance I'll take that bet, Lou! I'll bet $100.00 (put the decimal anywhere you want actually- it's not going to matter).

From: KSflatlander
05-Jan-21
I’ll take that bet.

GG- I’m pretty sure it would be a big wrinkle because I believe CDOW would have to get a take permit from the USFWS. That would take years and $$$. Plus it would trigger NEPA and public comment. Lou (and others) would get another opportunity to voice their opinion. In addition, if the NEPA is done poorly it’s an opportunity for lawyers to delay or kill the process.

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
Actually having the delisting overturned would be a benefit to Colorado because then the wolf matter will be under direction of the USFWS. So I would be dancing for that, but unfortunately it will be bad for the other states who need state management of wolf numbers. If it does get reversed, the best we can hope for is the delisting stands except in states where wolf numbers need to be targeted for state management.

I believe that happened for Grizzly, but not sure of the specifics.

05-Jan-21
Has BHA articulated a position on the WI season? If so, what is it? If not, why not? Not accusing, just inquiring.

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
Not sure, but I bet if anyone who's interested can go to either the WI state chapter website to see if any information is posted. If nothing posted contact the chapter leadership to see if any action was taken. That's the easiest way to get factual information. If you find anything, please post it.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
Stix is right, and exactly how I feel too. The delisting/relisting conundrum was articulated in an analysis of the ballot initiative prior to the election. Somehow the pro-wolf proponents fighting against delisting missed that little detail.

From: Trial153
05-Jan-21

Trial153's embedded Photo
Trial153's embedded Photo

05-Jan-21
Visited the site, did not see the above but they certainly seem pro-hunting to me. I don’t have to agree with them on every issue to see they would be a better partner than foe.

05-Jan-21
Factual information? I haven’t read a lot of fact in most of BHA’s statements so far. Just a slant on what they deem appropriate or what they feel is not. And, facts were pretty thin in any of that.

Stix, you posted a while back that you wanted wolves in CO. Then edited it out. Now you post that it’d be better for Colorado if the wolves stays listed. Meaning the feds still called the shots. I am truthfully confused.

I’m not being mean either. Instead, I’m trying to get my head around your positions. Do you want them there? Do you not? You preach science. There isn’t any science to this. Only management goals. Either wolves get to start taking the place of hunters for harvest quotas in CO or, hunters get to keep that quota. It’s a black or white issue. Because everyone knows you can both have wolves and human hunting. The only thing in question is who gets preference. And, you seem to be batting on both sides concerning that.

I’m not trying to rile you. I’ve always respected you. But, I get concerned when people who interact with game agencies seem to sway with the popular opinion of the company they are keeping.

Once again, it’s a sincere question. Not a gotcha point. Because I think the best courses for the future of hunting are pretty well defined when it comes to politics and, the people and groups in support of hunting. However, I find you and I differ greatly on that. So, I’m either missing something your philosophy is offering or, we’ve got a real problem in the house of hunting.

05-Jan-21
Bravo to the WI chapter for mentioning their support for hunting and fishing.

05-Jan-21
Justin,

The wolf issue is puzzling to me. Prior to this year, the previous 5 years I travelled to MB to bear hunt. They have wolves there, as well as deer, elk etc. I never detected the animosity towards wolves from the outfitters there as I do here on BS, and some guide for white tails as well as bear. We were always told not to shoot one if we saw one. I concluded wolves, hunters can co-exist. Am I misguided? Sincere question being a Kansan.

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
I am personally against a forced introduction like in Colorado. I remember that post you speak of, I wanted to articulate that I am not afraid of wolves being in the ecosystem but it came out like I was in favor of the forced introduction, so that's why I edited it out. My hands didn't type what my mind was thinking.

But I will say that wolves are coming into Colorado through a natural movement from the packs in Wyoming. if they move in naturally I think that it's iconic, and the sound of a wolf howl would be awesome to hear. I am not in the camp that says the only good wolf is a dead wolf.

I also do not believe in the that we should kill all wolves because they kill elk and we want more elk to kill ourselves. That's a losing argument to the non hunting General Public.

I have seen evidence that suggests that in areas where both wolves and elk thrived that the elk had developed natural abilities to defend themselves, which was lost once wolves were exterminated by man. It's obvious that this was true by all the accounts of Lewis and Clark on their discovery missions that documented large herds of Elk, Moose and Bison living with strong packs of wolves and predators present. Those same studies also suggest that the elk will again develop those skills and savyness to survive in areas with wolves, but it will take several generations to develop. Again man created this lack of defensive behavior by extermination of the predator for threatening mans success in stock ranching, but is unwilling to wait for it to develop again because of mans selfish behavior to want to kill all the elk for himself.

I also think once predators populations increase they should be managed through hunting. You have to give the states the power to manage their own resources.

Since I got to edit this post, You all can see by the next post the lack of logic that folks have and why this is the type of junk that drives a wedge between hunters and the non-hunting public. No facts, just vitriol. If you cant come back with facts.... sling mud.

From: Bowbender
05-Jan-21

Bowbender's embedded Photo
Bowbender's embedded Photo

From: KSflatlander
05-Jan-21
Stix last post 2X. Very well stated. I share your position.

05-Jan-21
Stix, I think about 99.9% of hunters will agree with your post. Including me. You see, we aren’t really different. We just have different ideas on what is best for the future of hunting. And, that is a ok. As long as everyone remembers that as hunters, we have to prioritize our existence and influence in everything we do. Our opposition has been doing the same for their cause. We must do the same for ours. We are no longer in the live and jet live days. And, there is no harm in saying that or acting on that reality. Those that oppose hunting sure seem to see it that way. And, they seem to understand that currently, they need hunters

Frank, I know you can have them both. I think everyone here knows that. What I was referring to is the prior reintroduction was abused. There were never plans for the amount of wolves and their vast spread. Never. However, it was sued into that explosion.

No state can handle that expense. And as shown, few federal judges would rule in favor of hunting. It’s a can of worms that don’t need opened. Deep pockets would delay any meaningful attempt to manage the wolf to numbers where everyone got a piece of the pie initially. Want to see outside money fir special agenda. Get a lawsuit on the books in Colorado involving killing of wolves for management goals. The Sierra clubs are foaming at the mouth for that chance.

Unleashing THE worlds Alex predator into a herd that hasn’t seen it in nearly 100 years would result in a kill off akin to what happened with the Yellowstone ecosystem. A true slaughter. And hunters/hunting will get the privilege of setting on the sidelines to watch it.

I correlate most hunters reactions in the USA to being proactive in protecting hunting’s future. It’s a duty we should all posses if we intend to hand following generations the same or better opportunity’s in the field.

That’s the thing that pisses me. We could manage for them all. And have more of all. But, environmental wacko’s prove they aren’ interested in that conservation based approach. They want human hunting gone. And, they are well funded and intent to accomplish it. It’s our response as hunters that’s going to determine if they succeed.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
Shiras moose never coexisted with this giant subspecies of wolf. They adapted to defend themselves against the much smaller youngii subspecies originally present in the central Rockies. Shiras moose are the species most threatened by this wolf business, more than mule deer and elk.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
Shiras moose never coexisted with this giant subspecies of wolf. They adapted to defend themselves against the much smaller youngii subspecies originally present in the central Rockies. Shiras moose are the species most threatened by this wolf business, more than mule deer and elk.

05-Jan-21
True.

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
Just curious was shiras moose an introduced species or were they the original species before being driven to near extinction?

Just curious as I don't know about the varies sub-species and their original range.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
From Wyo.gov: "Shiras Moose occurs in portions of Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, Montana, Washington, and southern Alberta and southeastern British Columbia. Moose is believed to have entered Wyoming through Yellowstone National Park and along the Teton Range from southeast Idaho during the 1800s."

They were introduced in CO because it had a huge suitable ecosystem niche that wasn't occupied.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-21
Moose weren't even a species to hunt in Colorado when I was a teen. Whether they existed before my time matters not, to me. They are here now thru the efforts of our wildlife managers. Wolves are here already, too, Pick your preferred species to manage thru hunting. I'll take all of them with a legal tag. But I'd prefer to kill hooved animals.

Matt

From: Stix
05-Jan-21
If shiras moose were an original native species in Colorado, then your point regarding them being unable to defend against an unnatural predator is valid. If shiras moose was a forced non-native introduction and the larger wolves you speak of are a forced non-native introduction then.........

05-Jan-21
A lot of people have it wrong on this thread by stating “BHA is rooted in anti-hunting” when in fact it is the opposite. The top of their tree is the problem, as the vast majority of people who visit and gain interest and sign up for a membership are usually in it for the unique idea and club. Every other club is incredibly exclusive as far as being targeted to one specific area. Not every average guy will join 7 different clubs to cover all species and hunting methods, but he WILL join ONE club that covers ALL Backcountry hunting (which is how BHA attracts members)

What they don’t tel prospective members, is all the stuff shared in this thread. I do know the “top dogs” of BHA frequent this site somewhat often and hopefully this thread puts in perspective the fact that many guys are starting to pick up on their tendencies, whether they do these things with specific ill-intent or not, hopefully this opens their eyes to the fact that some people view it that way.

From: Dale Hajas
05-Jan-21
I had an essay prepared -its getting awfully deep in here. I deleted it because it's getting old. Bha hasnt changed, they still have the same friends as they did when I discovered their brother/sister relationship with Sierra Club, that linked to Animal Liberation Front, Earth first, and Earth Liberation Front. The original website showed the link to sierra club. On their page they linked the BHA as a sister org.

This group is here to deliver hunters and outdoor enthusiast in numbers to liberal causes.

05-Jan-21
Dale is right. When these threads first started 8-9 years ago, the BHA had the Sierra Club listed on their website. And vice versa. For collaborating partners. That is a fact. I know that because I saw it and linked it in a thread on the Leatherwall. Not long after, it disappeared off both pages. Never to resurface.

So, things have changed or somebody wised up. I know what I see. And, I know what I expect from a group that says hunting is paramount to their interest. Yes, they have had many members make that claim as well. Not so much anymore. It’s become more of an access for all interest speech these days. And that’s fine too. But, their name suggests different then what Stix talks of. And, as hunters I’d hope we either rally to get the organization to change their mission to hunting and fishing first. Or, hold their feet to the fire for self proclamation of such, with a totally different goal in mind.

That-a-way, we could cut to the chase and stop all the haggling about the organizations motive. Because it appears to me that a lot of members rally behind the idea of the name while a bunch of the other members talk a totally different game.

That’s just my thoughts. And, I’ve spent enough time trying to make this a group what it claims, because I WANTED it to be that group, to know I pretty much got it nailed down until something changes.

You may feel differently. But, I implore you to look into the issues mentioned. Before just throwing your support at a nifty mission statement. Because All is not as appears or insinuated. No one organization can please everyone. But, for goodness sakes, I’d think Backcountry Hunters & Anglers would/should define your agenda by default.

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-21
Stix, Shiras moose were native to the other states before Canadian super wolves were dumped. Their populations are crashing everywhere those wolves were forced. I've posted Dr. Valerius Geist's quotes before.

Funny thing is, former BHA Board members were in charge of managing that original dumping, and apparently Shiras moose weren't part of the EIS/EIA.

From: Tilzbow
05-Jan-21

Tilzbow's Link
In NV we don’t have wolves except in the very northern part of the state but I thinks it’s fair to speculate that wild horses have had as much of a negative impact on game populations as wolves in other states. The video on the attached link was produced by several opposing organizations including Sierra Club, Nevada Bighorns Unlimited and others in a combined effort to educate the public on the negative impact wild horses are having on range lands and game populations. Watch it all the way through and take it as you will but I think it’s an excellent example of what can happen when normally opposing organizations are able to agree on issues.

For what it’s worth, I joined BHA as a life member when they first formed for $100. That was against my Dad’s advice, since he knew a few of the guys who were starting the local chapter and he thought they were pretty extreme. For some reason my $100 life membership expired and I didn’t renew it or even make an effort to contact them because in the short time I was involved I quickly learned I should’ve followed Dad’s advice..... Not the first time I made that mistake but this time I was in my 40’s!

From: Tilzbow
05-Jan-21
Also, for those watching, and we should all be, it appears both of the republicans have a small lead in Georgia at the moment!

05-Jan-21
Apparently it was the legacy involved for ALL backcountry users to hike, bike, and bird watch with wolves that was most important to them. Not, that a once in 2 lifetimes chance at a bull moose tag tripled in odds.

But, I rest better at night knowing we have 16 new signs telling people to stay off restricted trails in Colorado with their ATV.

If the irony wasn’t so thick you could split it with a wood maul or, so damaging to what their organizations name suggests they stand for, it would be something to smile about.

From: Michael
05-Jan-21
Last year Co gave out 475 either sex tags or bull tags in GMU 61. A wolf can eat 22 elk a year. Throw a pack of 10 in that unit and there are 220 less elk. If a 1/8 of them are bulls that’s 27.5 less bulls. How many less tags does that equate to? The trickle down will be point creep across other units.

Colorado gave out 13 bull moose tags in GMU 161. Same pack of 10 wolves and they have elk and moose on the menu. How long till moose tag numbers are reduced?

Those that claim a hunter doesn’t want competition is naive at best. First of all all predators eliminate competition. That includes wolves. A wolf will kill a coyote in a hurry. A coyote will kill a fox as well. To eliminate there competition.

Secondly if tag numbers are reduced the only competition there will be is hunters competing with other hunters to get tags in an already very limited supply. Point creep is bad enough now. It’s only going to get worse if wolves get there tags.

06-Jan-21
Though we cannot see the future, I'd be willing to bet when the members of this group are of an age to still hunt, but not the ability that they once used to be, AND the group get's their way eliminating access at all costs, they may have second thoughts. Lou has this exactly right.

Stix, I also cannot disagree with you more trying to compare the times of Lewis and Clark to 2021. You're argument here is way too simplistic to think that the evolution of elk, due to the lack of wolves, will just rebound. This predator will have incredible devastating impacts that will last forever. Though, in theory, you may be correct but in reality it's delusional. The problem with this group's position on wolves or, obviously the lack thereof, is that politics will not allow for the management of predators and the thought that we should just allow management of both to balance out the issues is incredibly short sided if not simply ignorant to the times . Use my area in Colorado (Salida) as an example. A mule deer study , due to the severe declining deer numbers, was going to be done by increasing the numbers of bear and mountain lions killed in three gmu's. This was going to be a multi year effort and large scientific study where they also decreased the number of hunting licenses as well. This was immediately rebuffed by anti's and the DOW simply didn't have the funds or time to fight the protests and gave up. This will always happen as you see ballot box biology taking over every state. The fact that Back County "Hunters" did not stand up for hunting in this aspect shows that they inherently not care for hunting long term as they didn't take reality into account that we will never be allowed to keep predator numbers down. They didn't take into account that anti hunters were the one's pushing wolf reintroduction as a means of stopping hunting. If you want to be an advocate for hunting then you have to take reality into account, something BHA rarely does. I cannot stress enough that this group will do nothing but destroy access to hunting grounds, create an (even more) elitist group, and have concrete boots in the form of long term hunting advocacy. We needed a handful of votes to stop the wolves in Colorado.. A small handful that this group could have easily raised with a stance. Instead, they agreed with leftist inherently by staying silent and have forever changed the outlook of hunting in Colorado. Do not join this anti-hunting group... and if so, at least understand that they do not stand for regular hunters that have paved the way for our hunting freedoms we have today.

From: Scoot
06-Jan-21
"Do not join this anti-hunting group... and if so, at least understand that they do not stand for regular hunters that have paved the way for our hunting freedoms we have today."

Ding ding ding! We have another winner!!! Well said, standswit!!!

06-Jan-21
After yesterday, BHA is way down on my list of things to be concerned about.

From: Stix
06-Jan-21
Agreed HfW, Trump isn't content with himself going down, he has brought down the senate with him. Which will lead to the bringing down our country. The campaign ralleye's he spoke at were 90% about him, 1% about the candidates and the rest useless rants.

I've voted for republicans in 95% of all elections since I came to voting age, I sadly had to vote libertarian. I saw this coming, that he would drive a wedge into the Republican party.

My personal thoughts,.... he's setting up ratings for a post presidency tv show. His motives now are all about himself, nothing for the good of the country.

From: Dale Hajas
06-Jan-21
I had an essay prepared -its getting awfully deep in here. I deleted it because it's getting old. Bha hasnt changed, they still have the same friends as they did when I discovered their brother/sister relationship with Sierra Club, that linked to Animal Liberation Front, Earth first, and Earth Liberation Front. The original website showed the link to sierra club. On their page they linked the BHA as a sister org.

This group is here to deliver hunters and outdoor enthusiast in numbers to liberal causes.

From: Stix
06-Jan-21
Dale Hajas, agreeing with HfW, this thread is one of the last topics Americans should be concerned about now. When the dust clears we are going to need a monumental effort to get the republican party relevant again.

From: Stix
06-Jan-21
Forgot to add, if he wants to do something good for both the good of the country, and his popularity, he should use his popularity among his supporters to push for congressional term limts. This is where the problem lays.... career politicians.

From: JayZ
06-Jan-21
Stix.....x10000000000.

06-Jan-21
Stix, I don't want the old republican party of no-doers and bathroom rugs and I surely don't want elitist telling me how to hunt.... six in one half dozen in the other... You can blame Trump all you want, but if it wasn't for one man kneeling on another's throat until he died and another country's worldwide created pandemic (that no major country has tamed) Trump would have breezed through another election. Both of these were the d's best friend....

From: Bowbender
06-Jan-21
"...he should use his popularity among his supporters to push for congressional term limts. This is where the problem lays.... career politicians."

We have term limits. We just don't enforce them. The electorate is to busy with the bread and circuses provided by the media. I really don't want a law enacted because people are too damn lazy to do their job.

Tell ya what. I'll go along with term limits as long as the congress-critters cannot work for any lobbying firm in any capacity. Period. Never. Ever. Never ever. And maybe make such that you serve 10 years in the House, ya ain't running for ANY office. It's supposed to be public service, not a ****ing career. Back to private sector, as the FF intended.

From: KSflatlander
06-Jan-21
“And Tell ya what. I'll go along with term limits as long as the congress-critters cannot work for any lobbying firm in any capacity. Period. Never. Ever. Never ever. And maybe make such that you serve 10 years in the House, ya ain't running for ANY office. It's supposed to be public service, not a ****ing career. Back to private sector, as the FF intended.”

Completely and totally agree.

From: Glunt@work
06-Jan-21
One problem with term limits is a bad apple getting in, knowing they can't stay so ignoring constituents and just enriching themselves and pushing extreme causes while they can.

06-Jan-21
Glunt, I think that is the problem now. However, I’m all for leaving things alone. We have term limits if people except used an ounce of responsibility. It’s built in. Every election is a chance to exercise it.

From: Skippy
07-Jan-21
We need a like button, it would be a good way to show some appreciation for the common sense threads without having to post a reply.

From: bigdog21
07-Jan-21
Biden one wourld power agenda 2030

From: Grasshopper
07-Jan-21

Grasshopper's Link
Stix, you still need bipolar medication. When the CBA had been working with top brass at CPW, and came out with our BGSS recommendations, you absolutely blew up and went off the rails because you thought you had better info because you talked to a couple game wardens. YOU had all the answers, according to YOU, and there was NO WAY YOU could be wrong. You have a long history of going off the deep end, and just losing it. Humility and humbleness, where is it?

Here is a great example of Colorado BHA at work. To quote "Marion said CBHA also advocates for traditional use of public lands, including hunting on horseback and foot." Lock everyone else out.

Pretty sure there have been other trail lawsuits, if they don't like...time to sue.

Want to use your e-bike on a single track? Not if BHA has anything to say about it.

From: Grasshopper
07-Jan-21

Grasshopper's Link

From: Grasshopper
07-Jan-21

Grasshopper's Link
The lawsuit that goes on forever, brought by BHA. Because trails used forever as single track should only be for horse and foot travel.

Stix describes how special interests are a problem out of one side of his mouth, and how all these special interest groups are bad, while they act just like it to shut out the special interests they don't like. Unbelievable hypocrisy

Agenda anyone?

From: Tate
07-Jan-21
Quite contrary to what I've seen on Stix's posts on this and other topics. His responses here have been attached with websites backing his claims. It appears he has tried to present facts in his replies. It also appears through some of his own personal efforts that he has an understanding of conservation and is passionate for the goals he is trying to achieve. He has been even tempered in his replies looking to de-escalate the vitriol pitting hunter against hunter (as your comments regarding bi-polar seem to project). We all are on the same side, are we not?

I read your attached website link, and the BHA representative speaking says the goals is to protect wildlife habitat and to provide additional opportunity for hunting in the area, with the point being made that increased motorized use would be detrimental to big game habitat and movements. That's no hidden agenda, that's the BHA's mission.

I can also attest to the fact that the British Columbia BHA chapter is held in very high regard by the Ministry of Natural Resources as BHA's efforts augment the ministries efforts in habitat and wildlife conservation. I suggest to you that even in your state, the power of old organizations, motivated by trying to improve opportunities for their specific type of hunt method or species identification, are going out with the old, and being replaced with organizations such as BHA that are helping with Natural Resource Departments mission. This is the type of organization getting the accolades from both government conservation agencies, the non-hunting public, and the hunters themselves. The other organizations are becoming less relevant and antiquated by the "get the most for me" selfish attitude.

I believe what we are seeing here is the old power broker organizations becoming increasingly frustrated with the continual loss of there power, and resorting to personal attacks to belittle the new organization as they have won favor because of their mission. Much like your President Trump. He's now irrelevant, going down the tubes and taking everyone he can with him.

From: Grasshopper
07-Jan-21

Grasshopper's Link
Who else files lawsuits to shut road access down? Wild Earth Guardians. Wonder where BHA weighed in this one?

From: Stix
07-Jan-21
Thank you Tate, I appreciate your confidence and objective post. Those who sling mud always have dirty hands.

From: Grasshopper
07-Jan-21

Grasshopper's Link
What do you know, not only do they pal up with Sierra club, but Wild Earth too.

Those who sling mud? Guess your hands are awful dirty Stix becuase you always have the answers but never humble yourself. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

From: Tate
08-Jan-21
Mr Grasshopper, I sincerely hope you read my last post, especially the last paragraph. It would be unwise to be part of the old power broker attitude going down and out, gasping for air, and retool to become a valuable asset. Words of wisdom to you,.....grasshopper

From: Grasshopper
08-Jan-21
Look Tate, I am a hunter and appreciate elk and deer herds. Forest service lands are supposed to be multiple use. We have trail complexes all over the state, and elk herds are thriving in many of them.

I hear claims of declining herds and trail use. When you look deeper, there is overharvest. Trails should not be used in calving and winter ground seasons. Summer range is plentiful. Those trails were above timberline. Habitual use causes habituation. Where is the study on that? Do elk in Estes Park move with human activity? We have hundreds of elk in Loveland, CO - they could care less about humans while they feed on the golf course. The herd is increasing. Why? License quotas.

Stix is pretty excited by the coming access to maybe 500,000 acres of overgrazed state lands that no hunters wanted to lease and likely holds few animals, I grieve the loss of 500,000 acres in SW Colorado as a result of the lawsuits. Great trade stix, just great.

I like wildlife, but rule number one is love thy neighbor. That is not shut out your neighbor.

From: timberdoodle
08-Jan-21
Most of the politicians end up beholden to $$ (lobbyists, big ag, pharmaceuticals, for-profit healthcare, etc.), special interests, and the party machinery (elections are big business, and sources of money) instead of the people they're supposed to represent. If people want the federal government to be better, citizens united needs to be repealed. Elections need to be publicly funded. Ranked choice voting implemented. Term limits should be implemented (including the USSC). Election day should be a national holiday (and voting available online - the fed government has conducted successful tests on this for years now). Campaigns should be limited to <6mo, not 90%+ of a term (see Canada). There can be no tolerance for people like Trump, Hawley, Cruz, Ron Johnson, etc. who put party and personal agenda before country. The answers are there for the taking.

BTW, I just renewed my BHA membership:)

From: Glunt@work
08-Jan-21
"There can be no tolerance for people like Trump, Hawley, Cruz, Ron Johnson, etc...."

I assume "etc." includes the long list of folks from the other party who put party and personal agenda before country?

From: timberdoodle
08-Jan-21
Glunt - if they put their party before their people, the same standard should apply. It will only apply if the money, etc. is taken out of the equation so that a more "representative" democracy has a chance. Even with that, there's still the matter of 24 hour "news" outlets (take your pick) that will keep a lot of people on either side of the aisle too wound up to even agree on objective facts, which is problematic. That being said, those named have taken things far beyond acceptable, and should be tried for sedition:)

From: Tate
08-Jan-21
Habitat, KS, Trial153, Stix, and others. It's apparent that this and the other Biden thread are saturated in a deep political divide that has become the essence of life in the US.

The debates you are trying to settle will be unending, and you are engaging with a mindset in folks that will never end. I applaud you for your passion in trying to make the US a better place from the deep divides that have been caused, especially in the last 4 years.

At this point you would be better off getting on with the prospect of a more peaceful and hopefully adventurous life in the outdoors. Let the arrogance continue on amongst themselves. The energy they are expelling on these threads would be so useful if channeled in the right direction. Don't let yourself be dragged down with the ignorant vitriol and circular logic these people using. They are better off arguing amongst themselves. let them have an audience of themselves.

The time to walkaway is now, in the victories you have achieved, and let the defeated wallow in their own mud.

From: Grasshopper
08-Jan-21
Tate, you have pull the plank out of your own eye before you can see the sawdust in anothers. BHA has been primarily a land use advocacy group in my opinion.

I don't have a problem with that, the land use group I am a member of is the Colorado off highway vehicle coalition.

I just think folks should be told we are about land use advocacy by BHA using full disclosure. Hunter advocacy is something totally different.

My pastor likes like to say you need truth, and grace. Everyone here has my grace, no one is perfect, neither is any organization. But lets fully disclose and discuss the truth so folks know it.

From: Jaquomo
13-Jan-21
OB, you have endeared yourself to me numerous times and I would still love you even if you went flat-brim and put a "Public Land Owner" decal on your rig. That's how us conservatives roll! ;-)

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