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I am a member of BHA but will most certainly not be renewing my membership. I joined to figure out just what they stand for and now we know. They haven't met a leftist they didn't like and if you take the time to read their press release on Haaland to head DOI their true colors couldn't be more obvious. Any hunter who would praise this nomination deserves to lose the rights he will most certainly lose. Deb Haaland is not even remotely qualified for this position.

Deb Haaland sponsored a bill that would require us to re-import all the violent criminal illegals that have been legally removed from this country. She is so far left I can't believe she wasn't a member of the "squad". She supports the Green New Deal, which will destroy our economy and be the end of the Republic.

BHA is not for hunters. It seems that their primary focus is the destruction of the Oil, gas and mining industries, not hunting and fishing opportunities. They are without a doubt a green decoy and this should seal their fate with freedom loving hunters in this country.

Not sure if it was Stix or one of the other BHA fluffers that said BHA will partner with non-traditional hunting groups in order to save our lands for future hunting. Not sure how partnering with the likes of Sierra Club helps hunting, but I guess this 59 year old aint "woke" enough to join with the IPA sippin', flat brim wearin' YouTubin' crew to "save" hunting.

Perhaps you could post a link to what "leading the charge" was? I could find no mention of it on BHA's British Columbia's Chapter page. And since they led this successful charge I would think they would post something about it.

The local chapters no doubt have great members. But, it’s a ploy. A simple ploy. National hands down nifty statements concerning conservation and land use but, the organization has repeatedly proved outside of regional memberships, it isn’t interested in that. Only political advancements of environmental policy that favors radical green movements. And, it’s the blind hunter member allowing it.

At this point I don’t know how that can be argued. Or even considered debatable. Because it simply is the facts of it.

Partisan Hack Someone who cares more about supporting a particular party or ideology than supporting what is morally right, or factually true.

You may be a partisan hack if: - the other side is to blame totally for all that is wrong in the country.

- you think its o.k. for judges to legislate from the bench as long as it coincides with your position.

- you won't admit the opposing party probably has as many good and as many bad ideas as your own favorite party.

The democratic party has turned every place they control into a shithole, plane and simple. Show me one big city that has been under leftist rule for decades that isn't a shithole or well on it's way. Show me one state that has been under leftist rule for decades and I'll show you a failing state.

The Republicans aren't perfect but they aren't the ones trying to take your guns, end hunting, kill babies, totally control all aspects of your life from food, energy, travel, healthcare, you name it. Democrats are even openly talking about re-education camps for those who don't agree. They are the ones destroying the lives of workers who don't toe the line. Getting them fired for not complying. That's been going on for years now and it is purely evil at it's core.

I realize that those on the left are genetically unable to value the things that make this country great so it's the duty of those who believe in common sense and reality to defeat those who are ruled by emotions and feelings.

I'm not completely close minded. I would gladly debate any of these issues with anyone. I dare you to convince me that the government does anything better than the private sector. I'm sure there are a few but I'm not thinking of any right now.

It has become so black and white it really is good vs. evil, patriots vs. traitors. freedom vs tyranny. When you have to lie about your cause then your cause probably isn't worth supporting and the left lies about everything.

In my book, if HSUS, Defenders of Wildlife, Earth Justice, and Center for Biological Diversity all applaud a political action, it is a MAJOR red flag. BHA joined right with them. That's not an attack, simply stating facts.

The group is made up of hunters and anglers and they are not inherently anti-hunting/angling. They just have a different viewpoint on what's important to preserve them.

If telling the truth is the criterion for establishing the moral high ground, we can safely presume you didn't vote for Donald Trump?

Sorry but as mentioned Trump was likely the most pro hunting president we have seen in the 50 years and all BHA did was hammer the administration.

Now we have a clearly anti hunting DOI pick and they think that is great. BHA will never see a dollar from my family as long as they continue this path...

Hell STIX I like you, but can you show me all the effort BHA put into fighting the wolves in Colorado?

Is this a great country, or what??!! Merry Christmas, to those who still celebrate it. Happy Kwanzaa to the Biden voters!

It is not about good or bad ideas. It is about ideology of the two parties. It is about should government be the end all be all and the bigger the better. Or should it be small and most stay out the way, not pick the winners and losers. Trial you should be able to see this more than anyone NY's mayor said this weekend "our mission is to redistribute wealth". That's not about good ideas or bad that about fundamentally changing what this country has been since it founding. It does exactly what Barack Hussein Obama said he wanted to do. It simple and become oh so simple to see it is about picking a free market or socialism.

Anyone who say differently is one of two things either they are dishonest or ignorant. You can't be a good egg all your life sooner or later you have to hatch or rot.

So, did Trump expand or shrink the size and scope of the federal government in terms of spending, deficits, and debt?

Matt

Seems they've even put on few pounds since then......

Backcountry Hikers and Fashionable Fishermen..... saw it happen with Sierra Club when they claimed to support hunters at first. But it seems having hunted isn't the same as being a hunter.

They always drift (grift?) to the easy money and hanging out (networking I think they call it) with the kids at the cool Orvis/LL Bean table in the cafeteria.....or boutique pub, whatever...... RMEF got caught up in those social circles a while back, but are working their way back to their core membership and goals. BHFF.... they are headed in the wrong direction, ..... that is if it's hunting you support. Locking arm and arm with the wrong people, people actively trying to eliminate hunting and constitutional rights.

But it's your money. Currently you can spend it how you like, I'm sure they have no moral conflict with taking it. Still somewhat a free country, but they're working on changing that. This lady up for appointment is working hard on changing that. You can put pretty candy sprinkles all over the top if it makes you feel better.... it's still a chit cone you're asking people to eat.

I rate success on results not rhetoric. More hunting opportunities, lower taxes, fewer regulations, higher stock market, no new wars, and above all else, he singlehandedly saved our right to bear arms. If Hillary had won, they only needed one vote to say our right to bear arms never even existed. Poof! Gone!

You can't argue that Trump got a lot of things done that could indeed make America great again. Sadly, I feel that all those gains will be lost in the coming months. And I don't believe for a minute that China Joe actually won the election. If they get away with it, we will never see a fair national election in this country again. Our Republic will be lost and so will everything that we hold dear.

We argue amongst ourselves constantly. Traditional vs compound vs crossbow. Hoyt vs Mathews vs Bowtech. You can say this is not divisible, but when it turns to name calling and personal attacks, we’re playing right into their hands.

I may not agree with how you hunt, where you hunt or what you hunt with, but I will defend and support your right to hunt.

I hope our country wakes up before it’s too late and realizes the road we’re headed down is the road to destruction. We must stand together as hunters and beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

The "Clown" In The White House:

The clown in the White House just brokered three Middle East Peace Accords, something that 71 years of political intervention and endless war failed to produce.

The buffoon in the White House is the first president that has not engaged us in a foreign war since Eisenhower

The clown in the White House has had the greatest impact on the economy, bringing jobs, and lowering unemployment to the Black and Latino population of ANY other president. Ever.

The buffoon in the White House has exposed the deep, widespread, and long-standing corruption in the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and the Republican and Democratic parties.

The buffoon in the White House turned NATO around and had them start paying their dues.

The clown in the White House neutralized the North Koreans, stopped them from developing a further nuclear capability, sending missiles toward Japan, and threatening the West Coast of the US.

The clown in the White House turned our relationship with the Chinese around, brought hundreds of businesses back to the USA.

The clown in the White House has accomplished the appointing of three Supreme Court Justices and close to 300 Federal Judges.

This same clown in the White House lowered your taxes, increased the standard deduction on your IRS return from $12,500 for Married Filing Joint to $24,400 and caused your stock market to move to record levels over 100 times, positively impacting the retirements of tens of millions of citizens.

The clown in the White House fast-tracked the development of a COVID Vaccine - it will be available within weeks - we still don't have a vaccine for SARS, Bird Flu, Ebola, or a host of diseases that arose during previous administrations.

The clown in the White House rebuilt our military which the Obama administration had crippled and had fired 214 key generals and admirals in his first year of office.

This clown in the White House uncovered widespread pedophilia in the government and in Hollywood and is exposing worldwide sex trafficking of minors and bringing children home to their families.

The clown in the White House works for free and has lost well over 2 billion dollars of his own money in serving - and done all of this and much more in the face of relentless undermining and opposition from people who are threatened because they know they are going to be exposed as the criminals that they are if he is re-elected.

I got it; you don't like him. Many of you utterly hate and despise him. How special of you. He is serving you and ALL the American people. What are you doing besides calling him names and laughing about him catching the China virus ?????

****And please educate me again as to what Biden has accomplished for America in his 47 years in office?****!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll take a 'clown' any day versus a fork tongued, smooth talking hypocritical corrupt liar. Please let it be known, I am not sure I would want to have a beer with him (if he drank, which he doesn't) or even be his friend. I don't care if I even like him.

I want a strong leader who isn't afraid to kick some ass when needed.

I don't need a fatherly figure - I already have one.

I don't need a liar - that's what Hollywood and CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS and the New York Times are for.

I don't need someone to help me, but I also don't want an obstacle or a demented, senile washed-up Swamp Monster.

God bless Donald Trump - the most unappreciated President in history.

The irony of anyone voting democrat because Trump is a liar and immoral is rich.

Matt

Keep narrowing down the hunting coalition...

If attacking the messenger is all you got flatlander then the message spoke volumes

Sorry MB you don’t get to decide if I’m a hunter or not.

Besides, you're a Biden supporter, so what's the problem with plagiarism then? Gropin' Chinese Joe is an expert at it. Or does it not apply to Democrats?

https://www.unitedpatriotsofamerica.com/president-trump/the-clown-in-the-white-house.html

And they call on those to pass it on. I did.

Careful there WW...keep speaking the truth and you'll also be labeled a racist. You certainly won't hear any sensible or intelligent counterpoints to your post from folks on the left side.

Matt

First, The border is closed for non-essential travel, but open if you or your spouse have family in Canada. I believe the person traveling here mentioned something about family .

Second, even with all the talk of gun confiscation etc. up here, you can still buy ammo at any local sporting goods store that sells it. I have never seen such fear that the shelves are wiped clean by mindless people who have OCD and panic. Up here, clear minds prevail.

Third, and I admit I don't have all the details, the backcountry hunters sent out emails to all their followers asking for testimony and email writing campaigns to stop the spring bear hunt initiatives in a couple of provinces. It was successful, as they were dropped in the various ministries due to the public response.That's the way the backcountry hunters work, boots on the ground, grassroots campaigns.

I cannot believe that some folks would let one conniving man as your president, be the catalyst for such vitriol, and aggressiveness towards brother sportsmen. You folks should be ashamed of yourselves.

I am going to post this on the other thread also, since people seem to be going back and forth. I am so glad my work transferred me up here, living in peace of mind, not fear and panic.

The world is laughing at you.

If you think freedom loving Americans care what the rest of the world thinks you are sadly mistaken. When I hear lefties put down this country or President Trump it just makes me smile knowing his impact in 4 years was so significant.

What is better than Trump winning in 2016? Him winning in 2024.

Tate with due respect had Canadians acted a little more incendiary about their politics maybe you would have a more moderate government.

I know several of the higher ups personally and tried to get them to make a stand on this issue.

Nothing.

I had high hopes for this organization. Unfortunately, the stands that it has made with respect to reducing hunting and fishing with National Monument designation, lack of support for our current administration’s policies that have been the greatest expansion of hunting and fishing since Teddy Roosevelt, refusing to stand with other hunting groups on the Colorado wolf issue, their lack of understanding of multiple use of public lands allowing them to stay public, lying about energy and mining exploration leases, and their continued support of absolutely horrible political policy has certainly changed my mind.

The comment was somewhat tongue in cheek in regards to the comment that current state of politics "...has become so black and white it really is good vs. evil, patriots vs. traitors. freedom vs tyranny. When you have to lie about your cause then your cause probably isn't worth supporting and the left lies about everything." The implication that the right - of which Trump is currently the highest ranking member - is some bastion of truth is not a compelling argument.

As far as your Colorado wolf initiative, with a quick glance I have seen on the Colorado bha facebook and websites that they published a mission statement against any ballot initiatives regarding wildlife conservation and urged their members and followers on facebook to vote against it. They called this ballot box conservation and it has no place and violates your north american model. I found this info without much effort

Lucky you. Maybe if it were illegal to carry in the states, we'd have ammo, too.

But classic TDS. Ignore the actual winning as much as possible.... he hurt some crackpot "reporter" feelings or better yet, someone who makes millions pretending in their fantasy world they are someone/something else..... Time to really go on offense and attack who said it or how it was said. That's whats really important.

Good grief.

I am also concerned by the lack of civility amongst the US population that your current president creates. Anyone that has an opposing view is treated with aggression. It is very evident on this thread. It is truly an example of 'follow the leader'. His conduct at rallies and in speeches is very much reminiscent of historical Adolf Hitler footage.

The grizzly hunt you mention, had very little public support. The indigenous people did not even support it. It was a product of corporate interests, who usually cater to the wealthy, in most cases American trophy hunters.

True, our firearms regulations are more restrictive. I feel no less safer because of it, although when I have traveled to the US, I definitely feel less safer.

As far as the backcountry hunters, I am not a member, but I did find this piece on their website that highlights their accomplishments from the prior year. It's worth taking a look at. It is heavily weighted to US issues, but the group has a lot of young energy, which is our future. I am seriously thinking of joining as a life member. They give Kimber rifles and handguns as life member incentives. I also noticed from their website that they have corporate partners who are involved heavily in hunting. I see Leupold, Federal ammo, Savage, Vortex, Gerber, ON-X, Weatherby, Benchmade, Crispi, Danner. And that's a small portion.

I also see they now have 60,000 members in North America, and 400,000 followers on facebook. They also have collegiate chapters, who reach out to folks who have never hunted. How can that be bad.

I strongly advise that all of you involved in the vitriol I am reading to re-channel your energy for the good of hunting and fishing, and the unity of sportsmen.

Here is the link I mention

It's not just our president, both parties share in this debacle. But your point is valid IMHO, and Trump did not learn that even though dems are equally to blame , People will always look to the person in charge to lead by example. He won on the issues; he, as well as many here, cannot grasp that like it or not personality matters when people go into the voting booth.

It's amazing to see the number of grown men arguing on Bowsite.

I agree. But you can predict the response here..."I don't care about his personality, blah, blah, blah..." They don't get that the majority do, and that's what counts.

Maryland's Governor, Hogan, he gets it IMO. Hopefully the Rs will figure it out before 2022 and 2024. Trump is not capable of changing, build on his ideas, but with a different person and we should be able to secure an easy victory. As bad as the far rights are at recognizing Trump is a losing proposition, the Ds don't recognize Americans are sick of identity politics. That fuels the division more in America IMHO than does Trump's extreme narcissism.

That is just not accurate. I will tell you why if the Harris/Biden ticket is successful by their standards and the standards of those around them like AOC, Bernie, Pelosi just to name a few. United States will not be successful unless you call success somewhere between massive increase in taxes and size of government to full blown socialism. We don't want the "success" Canada has seen here. It looks awful.

" His conduct at rallies and in speeches is very much reminiscent of historical Adolf Hitler footage."

From your comment here it obvious you are not a guy that digs too deep for facts. I have been to two Trump rallies. To compare him to Hitler is plan stupid sounds like something that would come from someone like KSflatbrimmer or Ziek. Listen to what Trumps says it not about control. It is the opposite it has always been about get the government out the way so that people can succeed. Be it the US or Canada we need more folks like Trump in every party. Guys that where wildly successfully in the real world then wants to make a difference in their later years. Not lifelong politicians that some how become multi millionaires off a government salary that suggest that not possible. What has a Biden or Trudeau ever done in life to give you the least bit of convenience in them to lead a country?

And they cater to young hipsters and push for road closures which is fine, except the U.S. hunting population is aging at an alarming rate and the number of hunters dropping out far exceeds the young recruitment. Reasons for dropping out always include lack of reasonable access to hunting areas, especially closures of roads older hunters have used for decades. That's fine for young hipsters, but in 15 years when there are 30% fewer hunters, things may change drastically.

We have this thread, and then another on how hunting land has become crowded due to COVID. One good thing about the virus is more people are being introduced to our passion. I am not a fan of vehicles being used to access our wild places. We should just accept that age limits us, instead we are behaving selfishly IMO. Pack animals OK, vehicles not IMHO.

Should we helicopter in the disabled? Where does it stop. Sorry, I know this is not popular but I see the demographic problem with license revenue maybe being only temporary as Baby Boomers die off. If more people are introduced to our passion because of things like COVID, which probably few predicted would have much affect on outdoor activities initially, in the long run things should work out.

States and others realize they need to court those latte drinkers, granola crunchers, flat brimmers etc. if they are going to keep things going in the short run. "Traditional" sources of revenue like hunters in the short run is becoming less dependable due to demographics, age of hunters. What is going on is just the realities. We need to quit complaining about it and enjoy every possible minute we have left, again IMHO.

I do have a suggestion for you all when I say to re-channel your energy into an activity that has enormous public support. Instead of supporting Trump in this frivolous attempt to change the election, I suggest that the same energy be used in a campaign to institute term limits for your legislators. From what I understand from American history, your legislators were envisioned to be part time, with having jobs outside the govt. The whole idea of career politicians is no different than the soviet politburo, north korean legislators, the venezuelan congress. they profess freedom but are beholden to their special interests that court them and allow them to stay in power. This is un-democratic.

This effort is widely supported by everyone I've been in contact with (except the politicians) and will result in long term positive changes. It will also get people lined up behind you and against the status quo an enable you to be able to win elections in the future.

Tate, your idea sounds good, but the stats from NSSF and USFWS show that these younger trendys aren't sticking with hunting. They try it, then discover it takes lots of time and money, and drop out. I researched this at the national and state level for an article, and the stats back it up..

Term limits at the federal level will never happen, because legislators will never vote to fire themselves from cushy jobs with lots of perks.

That is well stated! WE are all just looking out for our own interests, and the realities you spoke of are forces organizations like BHA have to face. Being older though, the P&Y aligns more with my own goals and wishes.

Thanks Lou. Land closed due to being labeled a national monument or due to private land ownership that many hunters face in the Midwest and other areas lead to the same results-less hunting opportunities for everyone.

Some of the folks posting comments about trump's divisiveness resonates with me for exactly this challenge we face-lost hunting opportunities. Trump had a habit of declaring everyone who offered an opinion different from his to be his enemy. That is where is political naivete that many loved him for actually hurt us IMHO. We need a big tent approach, we need to build coalitions with folks/entities that are not 100% aligned with us when we can use each other to achieve what we want individually. Give and take is reality, life has never been about 'my way or the highway'.

The comments about the flat brimmers, granola and latte consumers bust me up. I don't care about what anyone else legally does. It sure isn't going to change me and what I believe and how I act. I bet it won't you either. I make no apologies for being me, and don't ask for any either. Live and let live, which means people think differently than me. Tate has some very wise words there. We all know what he speaks is the truth, we just come here to *itch and moan about it. How about we take his advice and come up with ways to get more of what we want?

You guys know the Christmas Bear hunting thread? A bid for $4k for the P&Y Club! I never expected that, typically I think of Children's Mercy, Catholic Charities, Red Cross etc. That guy is putting his money right where we need it. Thank you to him.

All the negative talk towards a completely innocent bystander is completely unwarranted. I love IPA's and think they have a very real place in my beer fridge hierarchy.

Your comments about Nazi Germany or Hitler says it all. Clueless repetition of a line your people have been feeding you. Facts, truth actually matters. Reality shows it has been EXACTLY the opposite. Look at the left's actions, not words, they will say anything. Nazi's didn't stand up nor fight for personal individual freedom and rights. They formed mobs. Huge unthinking mobs. Mobs that required total conformity with political and personal beliefs or face censorship, violence... or worse. Next they took away guns and rights to own them. Shortly after took away rights to free speech and free press. Total control of the press, information. Academia (a classic Nazi line was to forget about the parents, control the schools and what the children learn, they can be indoctrinated. ) Total censorship. Remove books, statues, monuments and..... history.

Actions. Remind you of anyone?

What you DIDN'T didn't see were conservative/right riots. Calls to censor/cancel people and speech. Looting. Arson. From the right you saw rallies and actual peaceful, legal protests that often even leave the area cleaner than before. OTOH you saw leftist riots, looting, burning, assault, violence...... that the liars in media stood in front of cameras and called it "mostly peaceful protests" as cars and building literally burned in the background. Can't make this stuff up..... shades of Baghdad Bob propaganda. Liars. Bald faced, knowing liars. And people ate it up by the spoonful. Some will go along with anything to "get along". It's actually what they count on. I don't know what folks call it up there. Here it's called don't wizz down my back and tell me it's raining.

Trump called out the lies as well as the liars. They don't like that. So instead of changing tack they doubled down on the lies. Now they have totally lost all credibility with at least half the country. And losing more by the day. Americans hate to be lied to.... especially "for their own good..." And they hate elitists. I know of no nice, polite way to shut down liars, especially when called out and refused to make honest corrections, choose to double down. Takes someone with the cajones to say it to their face, but hey, lets not offend anyone that is lying to your face..... Yet somehow in leftist world there are rules that only apply to the right and not the left. For them there are no rules. They have a cause don'cha know.....for your own good....

If not for double standards..... they'd have no standards at all.

Thank God we have our Constitution, Bill or Rights, in which the people tell their government what it can and can't do, not the other way around. Rights not "granted" or "allowed" by government or by ANY man. Much of the problem is the government and it's lackeys forget that. They need to be reminded. Going along to get along in the face of, well, lies and evil in many cases.... just hands the game over to evil. Giving up without a fight.

Kinda like a "hunting" org joining hands with HSUS and other anti hunting groups, supporting anti gun administrations and the like..... it's America, your right to do so, join and support any group you like. But let the facts be known for all to make such a choice. Know about where your money is going, where your support is going. Who this group is (i.e. donating to BLM is in actuality a donation to Actblue, a fundraising arm of the Democrats, not to any black communities) In this case it's pretty clear if a person actually looks rather than feels. But I'd have to admit..... they might have better meetings than Sierra Club, Green Peace or HSUS......

So, when Trump reclassified millions of acres of Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments to allow for oil, gas, and mineral exploration/development, did that help or hurt hunting and fishing opportunities in those areas? Keep in mind, hunting and fishing were allowed on those lands before the reclassification. And, public land that is leased for energy development is often closed to other public uses.

If I recall correctly, the BHA's position was that the reclassification could ultimately reduce hunting/fishing/recreational opportunities on those lands. I can't say that I disagree with them.

Matt

You keep playing the same, long, broken record. The American electorate spoke, right as the Constitution directed. Your god lost, get over it. We are not going to let him change the rules to serve him, it was never about him, that’s what the extreme narcissist will never be capable of realizing. It has always been about the people, and the majority said good riddance, don’t let the door kiss you on the way out.

TD, What I am aware of and I observed via video, was a president using force on protesters who may have been obnoxious, but non-violent and non-destructive, Not because there was any danger to himself, anyone else, or to any property, but in order to have a photo op with a bible in front of a church. This was offensive to me as a Christian as it would have served him better to read the bible instead of using it for a photo op. That's what I saw.

It takes nothing but a stroke of a president's pen to either classify or declassify federal land in or out of monument status. It's still managed under the authority of the BLM either way. Not all monuments are closed to hunting. And not all BLM is open to hunting. One thing is a fairly sure bet, however. If the land gets leased for energy development, it's not likely to be open to hunting or other public uses.

Matt

You don't know how wrong you are with that statement. Unless, of course, you speak about the massive footprint loss for solar and wind farms...

Solar farms are a blight upon the earth with a lot of extra land fenced off around the ones I’ve seen. Horrible!

Have not been around any wind farms on public lands.

As is, public lands are bound by federal law to require public input on management. And, every piece of federal land has a management plan and, is required to do revisions periodically. The agency managing the ground sets dates to accept public input, then writes the plan, then puts the plans out for public comment. If anyone oppose, arbitration takes place until it can’t be settled. Then courts, etc....

Once a resolution is met on multiple use public lands, the plan is sent to Congress. To be signed into law. And, that’s what they do every single time under multiple use policy.

In reality, the process is abused by extremists in courts. But, in reality it’s beautiful too because we the people determine how this land is going to be managed.

However, All that changes with a government designation. Because designation of any sort requires the area be statutory against the laws outlining multiple use public lands. What that means is Congress now has the only authority to manage that designated area. It NO longer requires public approval. That is a certified fact. And, don’t let anyone else tell you differently. I’ve got documentation from the government stating that.

I’ve set at a few tables hashing this out with groups that are both friendly and non friendly to hunting. And, those non friendly to hunting know this. Which is why they push to designate public land away from public control. Their purse strings are huge and, they will buy their influence when the management plan for the designated area is written. Every single time. And, with no public input mandated, we get stuck with it.

You saw a lot of younger people partying and drinking whiskey. Heck, I'm all for more flat-brim, man-bunners hunting and supporting hunting. How many at the parties were active hunters, vs. backcountry fishermen and backpackers who joined BHA because it is way cooler than Sierra Club, and they get liquor? Did they talk about the threats to hunting at the parties? About what they plan to do to counter them? If this was in the U.S. I would ask, How many voted against the president who did more for hunting opportunity than any president since Teddy Roosevelt? How many support the Second Amendment? How many were in favor of locking up land and closing historical access to all but the very fittest hunters? How many would have voted to artificially stock wolves in a state like CO, against biologists recommendations, because the cool leaders of BHA weren't opposed to it?

BHA could do so much to help the cause of hunting, but they are laser focused on their missions, which is counter to the priorities of most hunters who understand what is really going on in the U.S. I'm afraid that instead of recruiting hunters, they are instead brainwashing younger folks with their leftist, elitist, Green New Deal narrative.

But maybe I'm way off base. Maybe BHA is simply a landing pad for the people I described above, with dramatically different values than the outdoorsmen I know and grew up with, who fought for hunting rights and 2A rights.

No hunting org can compete with the bank accounts of our opposition. And, until you’ve had lobbyists of the Sierra Club tell you one thing, then stick it in your back lobbying something totally different, you won’t understand. And, with no law to revisit the table, you get to fill it regularly. So, you don’t rub thighs with them. Because they ain’t our friends.

Tate.... gonna guess you didn't see the very church you are talking about with fire dept all around and smoke pouring out just a few short hours earlier.... the church those same "peaceful protestors" had set on fire? Along with several other buildings on fire in Layfayette Park that night near the White House? yeah... you didn't see nor hear any of the truth or facts surrounding your "peaceful protests". Because they don't want you to see it.... seemingly combined with a wish not to see it. They not only frame it for you with their "news", they will tell you what you should think about it. And at that time all they wanted you to think was "Orange Man Bad". Not rioters setting fires or throwing bricks and frozen bottles of water (the new age brick....) at firemen and police.

Back to the lies told of "peaceful protests"..... Peaceful protests don't loot, assault, nor set buildings on fire. Those are called "riots". Want to get into the events that caused these riots? Yet more outright knowing lies and double standards.... but likely for another thread. But I'll guarantee using your current sources like I'm seeing.... likely haven't heard or seen the facts of these events either.

Thank you for a very informative post above. Sincerely.

So, basically, any president has the authority to designate federal lands to his political advantage by EO only. Then, the next president from the other team reverses those EOs for their own perceived advantage. The net result is stagnation over time.

Those brilliant Founding Fathers never cease to amaze me.

Matt

You are welcome Matt. FWIW, A president only has the authority to designate a national monument under the Antiquities Act. It would legally take an act of Congress to do away with it.

Trump raised quite a stir with his EO directing the department of interior to look into the Bears Ear National monument. But, that’s all the authority he had. It was worded the way it was for a reason. It’s determined no president has the authority to outright change a management plan in anyway. That’s always been congress’s sole responsibility on designated lands. I’m surprised it went that far.

So, all we have are what news agency’s are reporting. And, I’m sure it follows along the lines of what you’ve read. It’s the American politicians way.

But, simply for the sake of it, divide 900,000,000,000 by 330,000,000. That amount is what’s left if every supposed citizen in this country received $600. That’s not the case as many are above the threshold and, not all census citizens are old enough to receive the payout,

One thing his for sure, I know how to fix the problems we have. Hang every single member of both parties that voted for this and start again. We are doomed if we let this go through. The interest alone on these coronavirus bailouts, before paid back is simply too large to ever get paid off.

This Corona virus is a flipping joke. It will go down as the leading cause of America faltering and failing in the end. It put fear where faith belonged, and turned this economy into an inflated and bound to fail mess. We will never recover this debt if we go through with this bailout.

America had better put their big boy pants on. FWIW, I’m not heartless. But, people die. Especially when you live as unhealthy as our society does. This virus as whole is not going to kill well over 99% of us. It is the mildest “sickness” I have ever experienced. And, it’s been that way for a very large percentage of people who’s had it. So, we’d better get busy with legislation that represents that knowledge or this republic is lost. It is really that simple.

We should clean house on both sides of the gov and get people in there that care about us and the US

Trump wanted $2000 for every family, but the bill only gives $600 because so much goes elsewhere to pet pork projects. Thats what he is most upset about.

Stop any BS payments of our tax dollars to any of this crap.

Hang anyone that has imposed unconstitutional restrictions upon their citizens in the name of “Covidithobia”.

From the nearest tree.

As soon as possible.

I gotta rope. And can get more...

First, the bill that was passed by Congress was a combination of a $900 billion Covid relief package AND a larger $1.4 trillion spending bill to keep the government open. The details of the relief package are easily found from several sources, and it DOES NOT contain any foreign aid. The president's complaint with this package is it doesn't provide enough money to qualifying recipients.

The details of the larger spending package are a little more difficult to find, I suspect because nobody has had time to sleuth thru them.

IMO, the 2 bills should have never been combined. It only creates confusion and misinformation, like we've seen on this thread.

Matt

I think it is more ignorance that anyone would believe foreign aid entails even a significant part of our federal budget. It does not, but I agree it still should be cut back. The bill even included more for defense spending, which also has waste. SS, Defense, health care are the biggest government spending categories by far.

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

We could also discuss the fact that discretionary appropriations represent only about 30% of the total federal budget. The $1.4T portion of this bill is consistent with past discretionary budgets, only the amounts have probably shifted around some. I haven't dug that deep, yet.

But discussing facts is often pointless, here.

Matt

As for Covid, sending people a $600 check isnt fixing anything. It costs way more than $600/person to do that and is like bailing water from a sinking ship with a Dixie cup.

We need to get back to work and life.

Trax, anyone?

;-)

Matt

Everyone is, only a handful voted No.

Why is it you guys always go for the crude response? Because your god does, you know, the guy that was fired by the American people for his conduct!

Shows where US citizens stand at $600 if you make under $90K.

Appears that illegal immigrants were also allocated up to $1,500 each.

Americans last...

This was voted through on both sides of the aisle.

Throw all the bums out!

Your source is including the government spending bill that keeps the government open until next September. The COVID stimulus package was a separate piece.

Maybe try following a legitimate news source, not Flynn and Powell falsehoods.

Matt

The COVID relief WAS a seperate bill. The two were joined and it was ONE vote on the entire 6,000 page, 2 feet thick, 66lb, ****ing monstrosity. There has been droves of small businesses that have closed in PA. Maybe those former owners are pissed when they see $12M going to Pakistan for women's equality or gender studies bravo sierra.

My SIL is an owner of a bowling alley/sports bar. They've been struggling since March. The latest lockdown is just another gut punch. Meanwhile, we can gather at Target, Walmart and any other store with no limitations. I stopped by Ulta yesterday over lunch to pick up a few stocking stuffers for the wifey. Place was packed. Meanwhile, the eateries in the same mall are either shuttered permanently, or hanging by a thread.

THAT is what has people pissed over the whole bill. Ya' I get it. Foreign aid is like 1% of our federal budget. That's still something like $36B. But if there $$'s to piss away on gender studies in 3rd world shit holes.....we can spend it better on our own. Or we should.

They were NOT separate. It was one piece of legislation. Precisely because Democrats (and some Republicans) were gambling that the American people were stupid enough to rejoice at the idea of getting a $600 check and overlook the pork.

Apparently it worked on some of our less clever BS libs!

Pete

America has been fooled for so long, the majority of folks think we're all playing with monopoly money. it will be interesting when it all crashes down. Then evolution will weed out the ignorant....

There is NO Way this can be justified to me, and for the morons that complain about Trump wanting to spend even more money, let me explain it to you. He was saying that " if you're going to pass a bill this large, give it back to the American people" , not ADD it to the total.. we should get 2k out of the 2700 instead of 600. I won't be getting any and haven't in the past. I think the whole thing should be vetoed. If we're going to worship at the altar of EVOLUTION like the libs want to do, lets let the weak die off..people and corporations alike. Need a good freeze....

It's amazing to see the lake of shame grown men have these days...everyone with their hand out...wow. Quite disgusting. Anyone who thinks we should be doling out foreign aide at this junction is an idiot and a traitor, IMO.

The federal spending portion of this bill isn't much different than Trumps last discretionary budget for FY 2021, which was over $1.4T, and ends on September 30, 2021. The $36B of foreign aid represents a drop in the bucket, relative to both the Covid relief package and the overall discretionary budget in this bill. Even if they put all of the foreign aid into "direct checks" to US citizens, it wouldn't come close to Trump's demands of $2000 to every qualifying recipient. Just a few facts and perspective.

Matt

This is the only thing I called BS on, and I don’t care if you put both bills together or separately, it’s still BS.

Typical of the trumplicans here to try and distract so they can feel better calling someone a lib. Your god is now liberal. Dump the subsidies and let people get back to work. That’s not the voice of a liberal.

"Dump the subsidies and let people get back to work."

Agreed. That's better than a check for $600 or $2,000. Still, a spending bill that is 6,000 pages. JHC....what legacy have we left our kids and grandkids. I thought the ACA Bill at 2,000 pages was nuts.

Yeah... those whining about "misinformation" when with their own prejudice they misinform themselves. FACT is, it's one bill. Media spoon feeds it after taking it for a nice spin and some guys slurp it up.... I mean, they are the "real" news.... so credible, why would they lie?

Meant to be one bill so not able to separate the pork from the bull chit.... so all one big chit sandwich, no matter what you guys want to wrap it with. And trotted out last second.

Then with a jerk of the knee.... "It's Trumps fault". Until called on it then it's everybody's fault. Buy a vowel. Trump doesn't write this spending crap. You guys call him "fascist" and "dictator" he's gone by the letter of the Constitution the whole way, he actually knows what he can and can't do, what the powers of Executive branch are. Seems it's others that don't know. He can't write it, nor can he re-write it or change it. He can sign it or veto it. And the way the dems packaged it, it's all or nothing. Evil is as evil does. But it's Trump's fault. He talks mean.... good grief....

He ought to veto this whole mess. Make em stay and work on it through the holidays just for being a-holes. Congress should be spanked for playing stupid games with peoples lives and even stupider "relief" scams. $600..... that's a bad joke. An insulting bad joke.

Azzes need to get back to work. Politicians and elitists need to take their foot off the working man's throat or they will soon find they have nothing but a bloody stump..... people are pizzed and some think those people can just be patted on the head and told to calm down. F' off....

So, currently, at least in terms of direct aid to Americans, NANCY PELOSI and DONALD TRUMP are more aligned than Trump and the R party.

Yes, I know that's an overly simplistic assessment, but man it's funny to entertain Trump and Pelosi wrapping up Trumps presidency on the same page!

Agreed, but trump pulling for $2k aligns him closer to Ds at the twilight of his presidency. Who knows, maybe he will switch parties, again, before the next election.

Yes TD, make another speech so the peanut gallery of one, Justin, can applaud yet again.

The only point I made was foreign aid does not compromise 93 percent of any bill, combined or not. Instead of admitting the truth you distract again with minuscule details. Tell us how trump is the great conservative while pushing for $2k? He is nothing more than a populist trying to regain some lost glory on the way out. Stick a fork in it, he’s done. All he is doing with his latest shenanigans is convincing those who voted against him they made the right decision.

Thanks for clarifying Habitat, I agree completely, that's not liberal mantra. You are correct.

Stop propping up the BS covid scam and get folks back to work. Time to sink or swim. Let's let Darwinism take effect.

BTW, Trump is not my God, he's just one man that has the spine to stand up to the deep state and call a spade a spade, that is all. I respect him for that. He spends like a drunken sailor compared to what I would do as POTUS, but that's another matter. The sad fact is the majority of Americans now are begging little birdies, who can't fend for themselves...

The conservatives on here have felt like they haven't had a voice in years, and Trump is speaking what they believe, that's why he's popular among patriots. I think you do yourself a disservice trying to falsely accuse folks of worshiping him. I'm pretty sure you're smarter than that.. Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone!

I'm not here to do your research for you. The fact is, the House voted on these 2 bills as separate measures. Both measures passed by huge majorities. They sent both bills to the Senate under one measure, where it passed by a 92-6 majority vote. Whether you like it or not, the vast majority of both sides of the isle voted in favor of this bill(s). Now, Trump wants to add even more spending to the relief side of it. Those are simple facts that are easily confirmed by numerous sources.

And to answer your meaningless "gotcha" question, I have not read the entire bill, nor will I. I don't need to read 6000 pages of a bill to understand the gist of it. It's an economic relief package combined with a normal annual discretionary appropriations bill. The last 2 years have had similar discretionary budgets of $1.4T. I'd love to see that figure reduced, as well as the larger mandatory spending portion of the federal budget. But, history tells us I might as well be hoping to have beers with Sasquatch, instead.

Matt

Friend just sent this to me, and it hit me (I know, it's NPR... It's still a good story)... This sort of CCC comeback program if you will could be awesome. It's largely outdoors - so relatively COVID safe. It's gets an opportunity to help for people who's industry may be smashed (restaurant workers for example), and may not be remotely close to the same for a long time given likely changes in employment shape (businesses doing more work from home saving money on buildings and thus fewer professionals in downtowns etc to eat... ) to have a good option. And nationally, this would create pride. When suddenly there are more people working to physically improve our communities and the outdoor options we have in them, that's good. Plus, you ultimately have people working, and the economic positives of that.

I realize in rural Nebraska, maybe this isnt helpful... But in a lot of places, ccc like programs could be pretty helpful and sure seem a great use of national investment dollars...

Trump has done nothing to tear this country apart. All of the destruction, hate and division has been a product of the left. All Trump wants to do is make this country better. He is hit with stone walls from all sides.

You don't see Republicans rioting, beating, burning and terrorizing just because they don't get their way.

Consider this, Trump and his supporters want to make the country better. The lefties want to fundamentally transform the greatest county in history. Even China Joe uses the phrase "transform",never improve.

Thanks. The ‘god worshipping’ is a direct rebuttal to always being labeled a leftist here just for being critical of Trump on some issues. I don’t mind you pointing out when I pick on trumplicans as long as you do the same when they accuse all others of being leftists. If we can ever do that, we might have some great dialogue here.

The sincerity is genuine!

I’m also certain you have no earthly idea what’s in this other then what your sources gave you. Are we to believe that you read all 6000 plus pages? Nope. But, it didn’t stop you from standing on your pedestal acting as if you did.

This stupid virus reaction is going to bankrupt this country. All of it from president on down is ignorant. Over spending for appropriations has been long outta control and a pet peeve of mine. The words I’ve typed about it in the past are the same now. It’s outta control.

I meant what I said and I’ll say it until I die. No one knows what’s in the “bill”. And, there is a reason they run it altogether.

Again, I must say this is laughable. From what I see, your gov't is truly broken. American has no political definition. At least here we know we're progressive liberals, but democratic. I am glad I live here.

I stood on no pedestal pretending I've read the entire bill. I stated what I believe are facts, that you are welcomed to check. If I'm wrong on any of what I've posted, please provide evidence of it, and I will stand corrected.

You're welcome to stay ignorantly bliss until you die. That's your choice. I like to stay a bit more informed.

Matt

Matt

Yeah, sounds like he's all for the pork stuffed into this mess, goodwid'it. You know it true, the MSM told ya it was.... WRT congress, actually I'm thinking they wrote it as many tiny little bills. Then a bit of super glue, a stapler and some elves on drugs assemble them all. Doesn't matter. FACT is, it's one bill, sign it or veto it. Once again, a binary choice......for the fence sitters and the..... nuanced....

Want to know how this foreign aid is spent.... how and exactly on who? So would I.

Lets ask the Biden Cartel, the Graham Center for American Prosperity, etc..... they might have some ideas. Maybe open an investigation into ALL of them, any and all personal as well as family foreign "investments" and connections laid out on the table. Seems a template is established, foreign kickbacks to family and friends from corruptocrats seems easier to hide and get away with. Biden's aren't the first nor the only ones to become incredibly wealthy on a congressman's salary. We can at least attempt to make them the last.

Here’s reality. If the POTUS veto’s this, it will be One veto. Not Two. Yes, Congress put the bills together. Yes, they can claim budget appropriations are where the 1.4 TRILLION dollars is going to be spent. But, the whole point asked by the Canadian above is did the bill contain those moneys for Other countries. And, according to all major news networks and the president, it did. Because it DID!!!!!!!!!And, the reaction from the American people say they see it the same way. No matter how you and congress wants to break it down. It’s American credit footing the bill.

Nobody cares about which part goes where because most of it is fruitless pork spending. Everyone is fed up with this crap. And, the mindset is Quit spending money for things that aren’t beneficial to the working class of this country.

Matt

The whole covid issue is somewhat suspect in my opinion because of the inordinately low numbers patients being diagnosed with the flu. Why has the flu diagnosis's magically gone down exponentially, unless there is a very high false positivity rate in the mass quantity of covid tests being performed? I.E. flu victims are mistakenly listed as covid.

Could other factors like less social gatherings, distance, better sanitary practices etc. have reduced flu virus spread? Covid is more contagious I thought?

But I also believe there is an incentive to conclude covid, probably multiple variables at play?

I really need to divorce myself from this thread, although I find it a very stimulating conversation, much to the chagrin of my wife.

I insist you all have a Merry Christmas, with Jesus Christ as your focal point; who He is, what He did, and what He continues to do.

I’ve given similar accounts of people I know with the same results before. This isn’t a new phenomenon.

BHA has not changed its colors. I imagine they will have a big push next spring after the World Economic Forum plans the Great Reset and pushes the cancel culture even more. Pretty soon the climate change issues will take center stage again- notice Amazon and Ford ads promoting clean energy? Watch the issues BHA follows right before and after the WES meeting. Put your dollars in groups that arent astro-turfed, and actually do something to benefit hunting.

Take a deep breath, tighten your manbun, adjust your flatbrim, crack open an IPA and chill. Be thankful for the non traditional sources of revenue and don't worry. I'm sure when hunting is on the block, we'll be able to depend on Sierra Club, Patagonians, etc to support us.

I predict that in 15 years BHA will no longer exist as a standalone, but will instead be a branch of a monstrous Green quasi-goverenmental enforcement organization in charge of vetting who and how people are allowed to use public lands.

I too know that recruitment is the key. When needs Rinella, the Hush guys, etc.... What we don’t need is the brain wash of conservation the BHA practices.

Clearly term limits are needed, all of Washington should be fired. All of them.

Not a fan of bha, i like open roads and cheap gas. Not a fan of dems, same reasoning

Reading this thread makes me sad thinking about all the wasted time you all have spent, but merry Christmas

Me too. I grew up exploring and hunting the public lands of Colorado. As our population grew and the amount of open open roads shrank, the result was/is heavy use on the remaining open roads. That heavy use, from more users crammed on to less available roads, exacurbates the issues that are used as reasons for more closures. Its an unending process.

I also like hunting and exploring our roadless areas. When BHA came on the scene I thought it was pretty great that there was an organization who's title basically described me. Didn't take long to figure out I wasn't a fit.

BTW, we hunters in PA were sharing the harvest long before BHA showed up.

28% "independent" democrats + 18% declared democrat + 13% undeclared, + 11% no comment = 70% of the people who get spoon fed to vote for democrats.

You guys sure went all out to help Cory Gardner after he sponsored his bill to permanently fund the holy grail of LWCF didn't you...

So are AOC's, Camel-Toe Harris', and a host of other far left wing groups. Point? My issue is that you continually denegrate the age group(s) that have done the most for our sport.

"You need to adapt to the changing environment, or you get left behind, becoming keyboard warriors that are insignificant and ignorant to the changing dynamics. Hunters fund and are North America's chief conservationists."

Nice. The group that has done the most for the sport is insignificant and ignorant. What strikes a cord with the younger crowd is being part of a group. A cool group. BHA is the cool group because it has partnered with enviro groups that are far left wing. And when (not if) hunting is on the block, we'll see how much the cool groups defend and support hunting.

BTW, BHA continues to be pretty much irrelevant in PA. While their chapter posts news articles and press releases, so do many other groups. Groups that actually have a mission. United Bowhunters of PA, TU, Lancaster Conservancy... The Conservancy is an interesting group. I suspect most of it's members are somewhat left of center. Almost 8,000 acres in Lancaster and York counties preserved. And most are open for hunting. They actually ACQUIRE land. There is a parcel of land next to the farm I hunt that was on the market for $4.5M. It's almost 600 acres. The Conservancy has acquired and is working with the PGC to determine the hunting regulations. Most of their lands are archery only as it's multi-use. This group gets my $$.

That was enough for me to realize what their true motives were.

Pete

Stix’s arguments and BHA’s marketing are not enough to convince me that I will see the benefits of my money going to them as opposed to RMEF.

My lack of belief in them, and the lack of belief of hunters I know, is not a problem for me or us. It may or may not become a problem for BHA down the road.

I don’t disagree with everything BHA does... just enough for me.

I’m content in my reasoning. I’m content packing out garbage from public land on my own. I’m content enjoying a few pints with friends with curved brim hats.

We all make choices. Choose as wisely as you can.

YMMV

I'll do everything in my limited power to oppose 90% of BHA's leftist, green, elitist, lockout agenda, and their support of politicians hell-bent on imposing draconian measures like the Green New Deal, 30 by 30, BLM and reparations.

Now that is some world class BS.

I'll continue to support politicians who tell you what they're going to do and then actually do it.

Yeah....about that relevance thing. They're not in PA. Like I said they update with news releases and such, but there are many other groups that actually DO something.

"BHA is invited to contribute on issue's by national and state decision makers because BHA has an energetic membership willing to participate to help get the job done."

My conversations with "state decision makers" and in the PGC, when BHA is mentioned is either met with "Who?" or a smile. Have another helping of bullshit, you certainly seem to enjoy it.

Impotence? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think in means. Here's the reality in PA.

United Bowhunters of PA: Gained two the weeks in November for archery. Gained archery bear season. Gained (2)two weeks archery in September. Instrumental in getting Sunday hunting approved.

Trouth Unlimited: Various stream reclamation/improvement projects. Gained access to wild trout fisheries.

Lancaster Conservancy: Acquired thousands of acres for recreational use, including hunting.

BHA:

I know that probably pisses some members but, it is what it is. And, as a former forest manager, I’ve yet to meet any serious minded, experienced forest ecologists that agrees with much of anything the BHA sells. In both private and government sectors of resource management.

Stix, it’s a serious question.

Ton of groups out there that do 10x as much without ties to anti hunting and left wing environmental groups.

My last flintlock hunt, I filled a green contractor bag with trash at the public parking area. Maybe I should put out a newsletter.

Stix, I wander with all the BHA’s influence, what would have happened if the BHA had stated they were on the side of hunters in that matter. Instead of the ole safe bull crap you are calling a mission statement.

“Lou, I would shoot for a$$hole of the year, but you already have that buttoned up.“

Dunno... kinda sounds like impotent rancor to me. As far as a$$hole of the year, it’s Jan 3rd. Lou seems to strive for excellence in all endeavors, but... even taking that into account... isn’t it a little early to call?

And... not to parse words... seems to me that he’s got valid points and reasoning.

So I must be an a$$hole as well. I’ll have to ask the wife.

She and the kids think Lou’s some special stuff. Maybe I’ll get an upgrade.

I checked out the PA Chapter site. And their Facebook page as well. Nothing but press releases that other outdoor groups provide. Same with upcoming votes on enviro issues. I will say the FB page does have quite a few invites for pint night.

You speak as though the word action is only a noun. It’s a verb as well.

Serious question regarding all of this, give me a minute please....

In the past you have pointed out changing demographics, mainly aging hunters and the disastrous future impact this will have on license revenue and managing wildlife numbers. I don’t pretend to understand the complexities of the wolf issue, but is there any possibility that game departments, other entities like BHA, see the necessity of managing deer and elk herds as hunter numbers decline dramatically with assistance from natural predators? Many believe pressure from insurance companies, Ag associations etc. want herd numbers down, but I have read articles and talked with biologists who will tell you out of control herds are having an impact on habitat like forests that will have decades of changes such as deer eating valuable tree sprouts such as oaks and not touching less desirable species. Game departments have to be as concerned with this as they do hunting opportunities, right? As someone pointed out already, it seems we only care about hunting.

Lou, you are one of the accomplished hunters I highly respect on this site. I am just a couple years younger, and will never accomplish what you have. But, I don’t care how a person wears their hat, or crunches on granola, or only hunts occasionally. Seems these might be better allies potentially than antis. That’s what I mean by ‘Old Man Syndrome’, the my way or the highway approach will leave us with fewer allies in the long run, and really, place at greater risk for what we proclaim to be sacred to us. JMHO, and again I don’t pretend to understand the issues from my perch in KS. Thanks.

Think BHA will back my AOY campaign if I donate money to AOC? Or their ugly sister organization, Sierra Club?

Meanwhile, the roads that historically allowed older hunters to access more public land are being closed at a breakneck pace, which in-turn concentrates hunters into fewer and fewer areas they can access on foot. If they do venture back in and kill an elk, they have great difficulty getting one out.

Read that carefully. It isn't something I made up, but rather came from the CPW. It virtually mirrors the BHA agenda of closing roads, locking out access, making hunting something only for the young and super fit or those who can afford to pay outfitters.

BHA's position on wolves is silence. The national leadership is quiet because wolves are a symbol of the environmentalist Left in league with BHA leadership. The state simply issued an oatmeal mush statement about NAMWC. Not opposition to wolf forcing. Meanwhile, at the same time the national leadership supports the closing of millions of acres of hunting access to all but the super fit and/or wealthy, and supports the installation of massive wind and solar farms on public land.

BHA may do some good things. They get a lot of young people buzzed on beer. Cool. I was there once too. But their war on older hunters and their support for massive public land wind and solar farms are the primary reasons why I am adamantly against their agenda.

I'm not sure "My way or the highway" is limited to seasoned hunters. Spend a few minutes reading comments on the BHA Facebook page on any topic that is political or splits folks views and that 18% young Democrat portion gets pretty intolerant. Seems about 22% of the 23% Republican membership apparently don't own computers or smart phones, or don't use Facebook.

I agree with BHA often enough but also disagree often enough. Hunters are generally conservative and environmentalists are generally liberal. No one is really surprised that BHA isn't for everyone in a place like this. "Another Year in the Fur Shed" wouldn't exactly go over great on the Sierra Club site even though trappers love the outdoors.

Let me share an experience that might have some merit in this discussion.

For more than 20 years I had access to hunt private properties in KS and MO. But I could see the writing on the wall, clearly. As deer hunting gained in popularity, access became much more difficult. Leasing was castigated as the ruin of hunting. I took it in stride, and since hunting is a way of life for me, Robin and I purchased land as we knew the owners we hunted on were only getting older.

And what I soon realized is that hunters that owned land on average are much better stewards of the land, and hence the wildlife. As a result an entire new industry sprang up helping enhance habitat/wildlife management. And what great partners we have become to our state game agencies, and how successful we are on average. I bet you caught my thread today?

I think the results of hunting deer becoming more popular and causing a movement towards the importance of private land management has been a win/win for wildlife and hunters. Yet, there are detractors...the guys who say we only want to shoot big bucks, not everyone can afford land, yada, yada in perpetuity. I laugh when some of those detractors call themselves conservatives. Very few of us could not obtain what we are willing to work and sacrifice for.

My point I guess is times change, we either adjust to continue making a difference or reduce ourselves to complaining.

I get your point about aging and needing an ebike to get to the places elk go to when pressured. For me I use a lighter weight bow now in cold weather. It sucks getting old, it sucks even worse to get old with a bad attitude, IMHO.

So here is a synopsis....

Questions and uncertainties are circulating around the purpose of the bill and it’s important to understand that this legislation doesn’t drive new development or endorse one energy source over another, but sets more protective standards for renewable energy projects than exist currently while ensuring that we prioritize conservation.

“Our support of this legislation is not an endorsement of energy development itself but a set of important guidelines that must be followed when development does occur. PLREDA incentivizes responsible development, creates more rigorous conservation standards that consider fish and wildlife — something that doesn’t currently exist for any energy development sector — and could facilitate more realistic competition across market conditions at any given time.“

Your link clearly states that the legislation is not promoting energy development on public land. It calls for development to be done responsibly if it does occur. It doesn’t sound like they are promoting development?

Instead, in a roundabout way they are endorsing it while hiding behind the old "it's going to happen anyway, so we might as well accept it and trust government officials to do the right thing".

BHA could have made a similar statement opposing the wolf forcing initiative in CO. Instead, they sat on the sidelines, which is effectively tacit endorsement of wolf forcing.

From your link:

“Question: Does PLREDA incentivize more energy development on our public lands versus conserving fish and wildlife habitat?

Answer: No. PLREDA ensures that energy development on our public lands includes responsible mitigation of impacts to fish and wildlife habitat while driving royalties to impacted communities and wildlife habitat. However, PLREDA does incentivize responsibly sited renewable energy development in areas of high energy potential and low impact on fish and wildlife habitat.“

“ Question: Under Section 9 of PLREDA, the Secretaries of the Interior and Agriculture require production of 25 gigawatts. Is this a new mandate? Does it incentivize the production of renewable energy on public lands?

Answer: Section 9 of PLREDA does state that a minimum of 25 gigawatts (GW) of electricity will be produced from solar, wind and geothermal. This is not a mandate, but a science-based projection for renewable energy production through 2025 based on existing projects and expectations for the next 5 years.

Under the Energy Policy Act of 2005, the Bush Administration set a goal to permitting 10 GW of renewables by 2015. This was met. During the Obama administration, the goal was set to 20 GW by 2020. Following this reasonable projection and timeline, PLREDA sets the goal once again to 25 GW by 2025. Over the years, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) has changed the way they record permitted GW on public lands. Currently, the BLM states that an estimated 12 GW are already permitted.

If we evaluate the additional 13 GW needed to reach the new 25 GW goal by 2025 and we only look at solar PV, at 7.9 acres/MW (based on an estimate for projects >20 MW in size from a National Renewable Energy Laboratory study), this requires an additional 102,700 acres of solar development. While this is not an insignificant number, BLM has already established 700,000 acres of Designated Leasing Areas (aka priority areas or zones) for solar development on public lands.

All development has impacts and while no legislative vehicle is perfect, PLREDA will put measures in place that consider fish and wildlife as a priority instead of an afterthought and predesignate priority development areas to prevent avoidable conflict.”

Sounds like conservation over preservation to me.

The reason for their statement on the bill is to show their donors they are indeed looking out for their best interests. To show the Sierra clubs they indeed hold the same beliefs that fossil fuels bad.

That flippin’ statement is the definition of oxymoron. Solar and wind cannot begin to compete with the efficiency and low costs of natural gas and coal generated power. Nor can any of the green sources compete environmentally with gas and mineral resources on the wildlife benefit they produce when reclaiming those sites. It is a lie to say any different Not to mention the sheer size of ground needed for wind and solar projects in comparison to mining and gas welling.

The only thing that link ensures and proves us the BHA on a National level is a political think tank. Nothing more.

FWIW, do you have any sources claiming what you have about the effectiveness of the BHA, that’s not generated by the BHA?

Kind of like Trumps voter fraud allegations.

Here's a quote from a recent interview. "Back in the early 1990s I campaigned hard for a state ballot initiative that outlawed spring hunting, baiting, and hounding of bears. We won overwhelmingly".

Petersen is an ethicist who also happens to hunt for food. He is against baiting and trophy hunting, calling SCI "childish and shameful" while discounting the huge amount of money those "rich fat cats (his phrase) generate" to fight poaching and support wildlife management in Africa.

He is also obviously an outspoken proponent of foot-travel only in the backcountry. That's a luxury afforded to someone like him who owns property adjoining National Forest which blocks access to the general public but allows him to hunt on foot from his home (and as I understand it from people who know him personally - please correct me if I'm wrong).

People spend time outdoors to see wild things. Would the average hiker, biker, back packer, etc.... rather spend a weekend in the woods where they saw many species of animals in good numbers. Or, would they rather see few animals and even less diversity in species mix? I know the answer. So does everyone else. To achieve the former, more preferred example, it takes conservation. Not preservation.

In addition, my link was not to point out the tax issues, but those of the actual donors to this club. Following the money means just that.. see who is giving to this group.. The tax issues are irrelevant. Do your own research and see who has and is still funding this group. They are not aligned with the everyday hunter. I would consider myself an extreme backcountry hunter. I bivy far away from other hunters, pack in with my exo mtn gear pack, kenetrek boots, titanium stove, seek outside tent, and do everything that this group advocates as the real experience. (I do bend my bill though) At first I did join, was a member, until I actually reviewed them deep down. I reviewed their financials (a mess) asked the right questions, and emailed the Colorado chapter. I was especially vocal during all of the rounds of wolves.. and never once received a response. What I found out is this group aligns themselves more with radical eco maniacs than I’d like to admit. This group will, in my opinion, align themselves in the long term with anti hunting ecologists in the sense that if you don’t close every road, make all parts wilderness, and fully limit opportunities to extreme experiences, they’ll stand against you. This will, therefore, limiting the right for all hunters. I have a daughter with a spinal cord injury and cannot experience these places as her legs just don’t work like “normal” people’s but I can take her into some pristine country to enjoy the outdoors. If BCH had their way, all of these roads that I would take her on would be closed to all motorized traffic. Am I saying they are intentionally leaving behind anyone with a disability...no... but do they really care if they do... no...

One REALLY interesting quote in his essay though. "or to carve them up with more logging roads or gas wells". Funny, but he didn't mention carving up public lands with wind farms, solar farms, and thousands of miles of new transmission lines and roads to build and service all these monstrosities. Suppose that is PC acceptable "carving"?

Serious question for you - have you done any studies on avoidance of operating wind turbine farms by deer, elk, etc.. as they have done in Europe? I have some really disturbing study papers but can't figure out how to post a PDF.

Dave Petersens BHA mantra is "habitat, habitat, habitat", yet you can't manage habitat in wilderness, and the critical habitat is on private winter ground, not wilderness.

So glad they were instrumental in getting us more access to overgrazed state trust lands that no one in the public felt were worth leasing the rec rights too.

And then, they actually sued the feds to close Colorado ATV trails that provided hunter access.

I am on the CPW public access working group right now, last meeting the BHA rep goes off into the absolutley wrong direction of offering up more landowner vouchers for access incentives! Landowners were drooling over that comment. They already get 25% of the tags on the plains, 20% west of 25. Great, lets privatize the wildlife in exchange for access for the guys that buy the tags when they already have it in voucher regulation? WTF?

Due to the political climate here in Colorado, this access working group is so diverse we don't have many hunters on it. But the land trusts, and folks who don't hunt big game sure are on it. Up hill battle, that surely stix will claim as a BHA success story whatever the outcome after CBA/CWF (me & kent ingram)fought for years to get this.

There are plenty of public land areas to develop wind and solar on public lands. There’s a ton of desolate desert badlands that are basically worthless for anything else and are very scarce for sake of wildlife and are so vast in their 10s of thousands of square miles that some solar and wind farms are not going to hurt a damn thing.

Lou- all of the wind research/studies I have done personally has been with birds and bats...no big game. However, I have seen some presentations on wind siting and big game migration interactions. I’ll see if I can find it and send to you via PM.

I understand your reason for not personally joining BHA. However, I do not understand your stereotyping and disparaging other hunters who may or may not be BHA members. You make it sound as if the only hunters that matter to you are the ones who look, think, act, and are the same age as you. That’s not going to expand the coalition of hunters.

There is one organization that includes hunters, has "hunters" in the name, that is advocating for this restrictive discrimination against older hunters all across the West. "Get out of the way and take up golf", they seem to be saying. "Habitat" is the straw man, but the same habitat existed when hunting access was allowed. "Roadless" is the mantra, and I agree that roadless is a good thing. I love hunting areas closed to vehicles.

But as with many zealot-led movements, this one is going to far. Now that the movement has crept up into the upper levels of USFS (led by the people who studied Natural Resources with me in the 70s, when the eco-movement was trendy and gaining steam) the wave is washing over the bow.

USFS just came into my area and cut down hundreds of trees to try to block our access to a popular HIKING trail, because they were afraid someone would illegally ride ATVs in there. That's the overboard I'm referring to, and BHA is all for that type of overreach, in virtually every direction. I wish I could see a way to support them, but the more I dig in, the less about them I like.

Just had a conversation with a friend on the phone and we both said the discussions here have been more civil lately. We appreciate that as well.

Lou, I agree with your example, that is overboard. Balance is key!

Ks, the study I have in PDF was done in Europe, and was a before and after study incorporating small animals, birds, and roe deer. Small animals were less affected by the turbines, but roe deer pretty much avoided them after installation, with an average 700 yard buffer from any turbine.

Frank, the trail connects from our private property to a network of trails open to motor vehicles 200 yards from our property boundary. The trail to our boundary was always shown as a numbered USFS trail on USFS maps until recently, when USFS decided to end the official trail 200 yards from our boundary and vacate the ROW. After spending all the money to cut down hundreds of trees to close our foot and horse access (the only legal access through our easement) they told us we arent allowed to cut a trail through all the fallen timber, and the dog hair timber on either side of the trail is virtually impassable. They won't give us a straight answer as to why they did this. Overreach. But this has nothing to do with BHA, of course.

I sent you some links about big game interactions with wind turbines. You will have to do some more digging into the links to get to the sources and full scientific study. I would like to see the Europe study if you can send me the name of the research paper. I'm curious to know if the roe deer that avoided the turbines by 700 yards were first generation post-construction. I would expect existing deer (first generation post-construction) to maybe avoid the new "thing" on the landscape. I'm guessing but it would be better to know over 2,3,4 generations how the deer population reacted. Did they become habituated to it over time? My guess is that they would the same as they do at airports. However, properly siting wind and solar farms (any energy project for that matter) is necessary to avoid or minimize (conservation) impacts. If BHA is signing on to legislation (PLREDA) that forces or put pressure on energy companies to consider big game impacts when siting then I'm all for it. I for it because there are always bad actors in every industry that care about $$$ then doing what is right. Those are regulations that I don't think need to be "de-regulated."

I'll third the civility thing and also admit that I have been the problem on occasion. Good discussion on this thread today. I may not agree with you but I understand better why you feel the way you feel and respect your opinion. However, we still should "pass it on" even if they have a flat brim. If you connect with them maybe they will put some curve in their bill so they can see your prospective better.

Take care.

Terrible!

You might have ticked someone off in the BHA who called someone....

Just kidding of course. Bureaucracy, nothing else needs to be said. Why we need small government.

Because the reputation of hunters that see no value in anything except big game, antler scores, and kill all predators is more endearing. Yeah, ok.

I, for one, don’t own an ATV, but do find my 4WD SUV to be more utilitarian for work and where I go.

And in spite of the opinion held by you and my wife, several people do find me to be endearing.

Very appreciative of any Platonic, non-contact, heterosexual love that I can get. And I’m not just saying that to get your hunting spots on public land.

My issue is that BHA seems to frequently hang with those bedfellows with regard to issues that are crucial to the HUNTER portion of Backcountry HUNTERS and Anglers... contrary to what seems to me to be at least half of their purported constituencies.

Thus, I don’t support them with my hard earned money.

I am not for killing all predators. Cause I AM a predator. Antis seem to forget that. I am a NATURAL predator as much as a wolf or a cougar. And because this is a bowhunting forum, one with our Native American ancestors as a predator.

To me, he epitomizes the core BHA mindset - Do it our way or you are (his exact words) "unsophisticated when it comes to biology and politics, always seeking more opportunity while refusing to sacrifice anything for the long-term good".

Thankfully he and BHA are here to explain to us what those sacrifices are.

Absolutely the CBA is a special interest group but there are some ardent special interest groups more vocal and doing a lot more than nipping at pant legs, who seem to have won tremendous favor with the CPW.

Ummm... BHA is nothing but a special interest group trying to push their own agenda, regardless of other stakeholders inputs. That's what they are all about...

Of course BHA is a special interest group. Maybe not on hunting topics (although they fo

Matt

I take cash, personal check (from you!) and Paypal.

Lou, I'll take your bet, and hope that I lose.

Matt

GG- I’m pretty sure it would be a big wrinkle because I believe CDOW would have to get a take permit from the USFWS. That would take years and $$$. Plus it would trigger NEPA and public comment. Lou (and others) would get another opportunity to voice their opinion. In addition, if the NEPA is done poorly it’s an opportunity for lawyers to delay or kill the process.

Stix, you posted a while back that you wanted wolves in CO. Then edited it out. Now you post that it’d be better for Colorado if the wolves stays listed. Meaning the feds still called the shots. I am truthfully confused.

I’m not being mean either. Instead, I’m trying to get my head around your positions. Do you want them there? Do you not? You preach science. There isn’t any science to this. Only management goals. Either wolves get to start taking the place of hunters for harvest quotas in CO or, hunters get to keep that quota. It’s a black or white issue. Because everyone knows you can both have wolves and human hunting. The only thing in question is who gets preference. And, you seem to be batting on both sides concerning that.

I’m not trying to rile you. I’ve always respected you. But, I get concerned when people who interact with game agencies seem to sway with the popular opinion of the company they are keeping.

Once again, it’s a sincere question. Not a gotcha point. Because I think the best courses for the future of hunting are pretty well defined when it comes to politics and, the people and groups in support of hunting. However, I find you and I differ greatly on that. So, I’m either missing something your philosophy is offering or, we’ve got a real problem in the house of hunting.

The wolf issue is puzzling to me. Prior to this year, the previous 5 years I travelled to MB to bear hunt. They have wolves there, as well as deer, elk etc. I never detected the animosity towards wolves from the outfitters there as I do here on BS, and some guide for white tails as well as bear. We were always told not to shoot one if we saw one. I concluded wolves, hunters can co-exist. Am I misguided? Sincere question being a Kansan.

Frank, I know you can have them both. I think everyone here knows that. What I was referring to is the prior reintroduction was abused. There were never plans for the amount of wolves and their vast spread. Never. However, it was sued into that explosion.

No state can handle that expense. And as shown, few federal judges would rule in favor of hunting. It’s a can of worms that don’t need opened. Deep pockets would delay any meaningful attempt to manage the wolf to numbers where everyone got a piece of the pie initially. Want to see outside money fir special agenda. Get a lawsuit on the books in Colorado involving killing of wolves for management goals. The Sierra clubs are foaming at the mouth for that chance.

Unleashing THE worlds Alex predator into a herd that hasn’t seen it in nearly 100 years would result in a kill off akin to what happened with the Yellowstone ecosystem. A true slaughter. And hunters/hunting will get the privilege of setting on the sidelines to watch it.

I correlate most hunters reactions in the USA to being proactive in protecting hunting’s future. It’s a duty we should all posses if we intend to hand following generations the same or better opportunity’s in the field.

That’s the thing that pisses me. We could manage for them all. And have more of all. But, environmental wacko’s prove they aren’ interested in that conservation based approach. They want human hunting gone. And, they are well funded and intent to accomplish it. It’s our response as hunters that’s going to determine if they succeed.

They were introduced in CO because it had a huge suitable ecosystem niche that wasn't occupied.

Matt

What they don’t tel prospective members, is all the stuff shared in this thread. I do know the “top dogs” of BHA frequent this site somewhat often and hopefully this thread puts in perspective the fact that many guys are starting to pick up on their tendencies, whether they do these things with specific ill-intent or not, hopefully this opens their eyes to the fact that some people view it that way.

This group is here to deliver hunters and outdoor enthusiast in numbers to liberal causes.

So, things have changed or somebody wised up. I know what I see. And, I know what I expect from a group that says hunting is paramount to their interest. Yes, they have had many members make that claim as well. Not so much anymore. It’s become more of an access for all interest speech these days. And that’s fine too. But, their name suggests different then what Stix talks of. And, as hunters I’d hope we either rally to get the organization to change their mission to hunting and fishing first. Or, hold their feet to the fire for self proclamation of such, with a totally different goal in mind.

That-a-way, we could cut to the chase and stop all the haggling about the organizations motive. Because it appears to me that a lot of members rally behind the idea of the name while a bunch of the other members talk a totally different game.

That’s just my thoughts. And, I’ve spent enough time trying to make this a group what it claims, because I WANTED it to be that group, to know I pretty much got it nailed down until something changes.

You may feel differently. But, I implore you to look into the issues mentioned. Before just throwing your support at a nifty mission statement. Because All is not as appears or insinuated. No one organization can please everyone. But, for goodness sakes, I’d think Backcountry Hunters & Anglers would/should define your agenda by default.

Funny thing is, former BHA Board members were in charge of managing that original dumping, and apparently Shiras moose weren't part of the EIS/EIA.

For what it’s worth, I joined BHA as a life member when they first formed for $100. That was against my Dad’s advice, since he knew a few of the guys who were starting the local chapter and he thought they were pretty extreme. For some reason my $100 life membership expired and I didn’t renew it or even make an effort to contact them because in the short time I was involved I quickly learned I should’ve followed Dad’s advice..... Not the first time I made that mistake but this time I was in my 40’s!

But, I rest better at night knowing we have 16 new signs telling people to stay off restricted trails in Colorado with their ATV.

If the irony wasn’t so thick you could split it with a wood maul or, so damaging to what their organizations name suggests they stand for, it would be something to smile about.

Colorado gave out 13 bull moose tags in GMU 161. Same pack of 10 wolves and they have elk and moose on the menu. How long till moose tag numbers are reduced?

Those that claim a hunter doesn’t want competition is naive at best. First of all all predators eliminate competition. That includes wolves. A wolf will kill a coyote in a hurry. A coyote will kill a fox as well. To eliminate there competition.

Secondly if tag numbers are reduced the only competition there will be is hunters competing with other hunters to get tags in an already very limited supply. Point creep is bad enough now. It’s only going to get worse if wolves get there tags.

Stix, I also cannot disagree with you more trying to compare the times of Lewis and Clark to 2021. You're argument here is way too simplistic to think that the evolution of elk, due to the lack of wolves, will just rebound. This predator will have incredible devastating impacts that will last forever. Though, in theory, you may be correct but in reality it's delusional. The problem with this group's position on wolves or, obviously the lack thereof, is that politics will not allow for the management of predators and the thought that we should just allow management of both to balance out the issues is incredibly short sided if not simply ignorant to the times . Use my area in Colorado (Salida) as an example. A mule deer study , due to the severe declining deer numbers, was going to be done by increasing the numbers of bear and mountain lions killed in three gmu's. This was going to be a multi year effort and large scientific study where they also decreased the number of hunting licenses as well. This was immediately rebuffed by anti's and the DOW simply didn't have the funds or time to fight the protests and gave up. This will always happen as you see ballot box biology taking over every state. The fact that Back County "Hunters" did not stand up for hunting in this aspect shows that they inherently not care for hunting long term as they didn't take reality into account that we will never be allowed to keep predator numbers down. They didn't take into account that anti hunters were the one's pushing wolf reintroduction as a means of stopping hunting. If you want to be an advocate for hunting then you have to take reality into account, something BHA rarely does. I cannot stress enough that this group will do nothing but destroy access to hunting grounds, create an (even more) elitist group, and have concrete boots in the form of long term hunting advocacy. We needed a handful of votes to stop the wolves in Colorado.. A small handful that this group could have easily raised with a stance. Instead, they agreed with leftist inherently by staying silent and have forever changed the outlook of hunting in Colorado. Do not join this anti-hunting group... and if so, at least understand that they do not stand for regular hunters that have paved the way for our hunting freedoms we have today.

This group is here to deliver hunters and outdoor enthusiast in numbers to liberal causes.

We have term limits. We just don't enforce them. The electorate is to busy with the bread and circuses provided by the media. I really don't want a law enacted because people are too damn lazy to do their job.

Tell ya what. I'll go along with term limits as long as the congress-critters cannot work for any lobbying firm in any capacity. Period. Never. Ever. Never ever. And maybe make such that you serve 10 years in the House, ya ain't running for ANY office. It's supposed to be public service, not a ****ing career. Back to private sector, as the FF intended.

Completely and totally agree.

Here is a great example of Colorado BHA at work. To quote "Marion said CBHA also advocates for traditional use of public lands, including hunting on horseback and foot." Lock everyone else out.

Pretty sure there have been other trail lawsuits, if they don't like...time to sue.

Want to use your e-bike on a single track? Not if BHA has anything to say about it.

Stix describes how special interests are a problem out of one side of his mouth, and how all these special interest groups are bad, while they act just like it to shut out the special interests they don't like. Unbelievable hypocrisy

Agenda anyone?

I read your attached website link, and the BHA representative speaking says the goals is to protect wildlife habitat and to provide additional opportunity for hunting in the area, with the point being made that increased motorized use would be detrimental to big game habitat and movements. That's no hidden agenda, that's the BHA's mission.

I can also attest to the fact that the British Columbia BHA chapter is held in very high regard by the Ministry of Natural Resources as BHA's efforts augment the ministries efforts in habitat and wildlife conservation. I suggest to you that even in your state, the power of old organizations, motivated by trying to improve opportunities for their specific type of hunt method or species identification, are going out with the old, and being replaced with organizations such as BHA that are helping with Natural Resource Departments mission. This is the type of organization getting the accolades from both government conservation agencies, the non-hunting public, and the hunters themselves. The other organizations are becoming less relevant and antiquated by the "get the most for me" selfish attitude.

I believe what we are seeing here is the old power broker organizations becoming increasingly frustrated with the continual loss of there power, and resorting to personal attacks to belittle the new organization as they have won favor because of their mission. Much like your President Trump. He's now irrelevant, going down the tubes and taking everyone he can with him.

Those who sling mud? Guess your hands are awful dirty Stix becuase you always have the answers but never humble yourself. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

I hear claims of declining herds and trail use. When you look deeper, there is overharvest. Trails should not be used in calving and winter ground seasons. Summer range is plentiful. Those trails were above timberline. Habitual use causes habituation. Where is the study on that? Do elk in Estes Park move with human activity? We have hundreds of elk in Loveland, CO - they could care less about humans while they feed on the golf course. The herd is increasing. Why? License quotas.

Stix is pretty excited by the coming access to maybe 500,000 acres of overgrazed state lands that no hunters wanted to lease and likely holds few animals, I grieve the loss of 500,000 acres in SW Colorado as a result of the lawsuits. Great trade stix, just great.

I like wildlife, but rule number one is love thy neighbor. That is not shut out your neighbor.

BTW, I just renewed my BHA membership:)

I assume "etc." includes the long list of folks from the other party who put party and personal agenda before country?

The debates you are trying to settle will be unending, and you are engaging with a mindset in folks that will never end. I applaud you for your passion in trying to make the US a better place from the deep divides that have been caused, especially in the last 4 years.

At this point you would be better off getting on with the prospect of a more peaceful and hopefully adventurous life in the outdoors. Let the arrogance continue on amongst themselves. The energy they are expelling on these threads would be so useful if channeled in the right direction. Don't let yourself be dragged down with the ignorant vitriol and circular logic these people using. They are better off arguing amongst themselves. let them have an audience of themselves.

The time to walkaway is now, in the victories you have achieved, and let the defeated wallow in their own mud.

I don't have a problem with that, the land use group I am a member of is the Colorado off highway vehicle coalition.

I just think folks should be told we are about land use advocacy by BHA using full disclosure. Hunter advocacy is something totally different.

My pastor likes like to say you need truth, and grace. Everyone here has my grace, no one is perfect, neither is any organization. But lets fully disclose and discuss the truth so folks know it.