https://iowawhitetail.com/threads/hsb-158-crossbows-in-late-archery-season.60160/ This is a bill introduced that is being discussed over on iowa whitetails.
It would allow people to hunt with a crossgun during the late split of archery. Just another step towards full inclusion. All the negative impacts of this you can find at my link.
FYI raven is the bills sponsor, go figure. All about the money.
Why do you call it a "gun"?? There's no gunpowder or an explosion of any sort involved. It shoots and arrow with a sharp point propelled by energy stored in drawn limbs which kills by shock via blood loss, and NOT by a mushrooming bullet's shockwave. Is it because it has a trigger? Your compound release has a trigger also. Or by your terms should it be called a comp-"GUN"?
I get it that you have an aversion to crossbows. But when you make stuff up about them it kind of destroys your argument.
Don’t let this thread get off the rails guys or someone will need to bolt. These half cocked arguments are out of scope and just trigger undue emotion.
I agree with scrappy on this. It’s just another way for the CG guys to get their foot in the door, with their ultimate goal of making it legal for anyone to hunt with crossguns during the regular archery season.
Bou, you are a funny man!! I agree they are much more like a gun than a bow. Held like a gun, aimed like a gun and shot like a gun. They are gonna be legal here in NY for the entire archery season. This year maybe but definitely in a few years. Guys don't want the challenge of bowhunting anymore, animal close, having to get drawn on them and than making the shot, Now its pull up, rest the crossbow and aim thru a scope and shoot when they are 60-80 yards away while the animal stands over a bait pile. Shawn
This change is not surprising at all. The current trend in Iowa and possibly the Midwest is hunting out of enclosed shooting houses and these lend themselves perfectly to crossbows. They seem to want to increase the efficiency of the weapons allowed in all the seasons. These changes ie, straight wall rifles during the gun season and now the introduction of crossbows allowed on archery tags really only benefit the makers of these specialized weapons. What many don’t understand about this change is that now an Iowa landowner could legally shoot 3 bucks a year without drawing a bow.
Yep just another arrow gun. There are seasons for muzzle loaders, rifles, shotguns and bows. I don’t see a need for an additional “recruitment” tool. If you don’t want to hunt with a rifle or bow, I can’t imagine an arrow gun is going to draw you in. Arrow guns should be for the young and disabled that can’t draw 40#. If kids are too young to not draw 40# I don’t know that they’re ready for hunting. Outside of that if you want to use one, then gun season should allow it. When it comes to repeating arrow guns I’m not sure where you draw the line. The CO2 gattlin gun arrow shooter will be next.
The bottom line for me is it's not the hunters or the iowa DNR behind the changes. It's the crossgun industry that is trying to push this to make more money at all costs. GREED is the only motivation behind this and we all know how greed destroys everything.
Began in Indiana with legalizing crossbows for those with a disability permit only. Ended with crossbows legal for anyone in all archery seasons. Only consolation we were able to muster was separate licensing criteria for record keeping purposes. Didn't take long for the crossbow harvest to eclipse the archery harvest...which is the reason we pushed for separate records.
Agree with Shawn. no one wants to put in the work anymore to become proficient with archery equipment. Greed and technology has got us to this point in everything in society today! and we all see how well that's working!
Ask Wisconsin how many new hunters were recruited based upon allowing crossbows in archery season. I’ll save you the trouble. It resulted in a net loss of hunters. Especially bowhunters, they were reduced by nearly 40%. That’s right, 40%. All crossbow inclusion does is allow rifle/gun hunters to participate in bow seasons. It does not recruit new hunters.
Some of you are a bit of a hoot. There you stand with your wheel tool, 20% let off, front sight, rear sight, and trigger, and complaining the cross bow is too much like a gun. We all know the horse was out the barn door when Jennings marketed the compound back in '72.
Woods you seem triggered. His term is correct. It's a shoulder fired weapon that doesn't have to be held at full draw. Powder and primer or the fact that it uses a blade have nothing to do with the term gun.
There is no good that will come of more crossbow inclusion.
First off I personally hate crossbows and do not feel they should be allowed during our archery season in Iowa (obvious person feeling that won’t change) That being said late season anymore is a free for all already. Muzzleloaders, pistols, bow and I really thought crossbows were already allowed? That was once my favorite coveted season using my sidelock and having no one else around. Yes Scrappy it does allow gun hunters to take a second buck, so does the states stupid party hunting rule. Anyone can buy a 2nd shotgun doe tag, hunt with a group, shoot a smoker buck then turn around and late season muzzleloader... and shoot a smoker buck. The rules are so easy to legally get around. Add into that numerous land owner tags and the people filling those...
And then add into the fact that anyone who wants to crossbow hunt the rut just needs a medical excuse that we’re once impossible to get....and now are handed out like candy, Thanks to our sissy society.
Do I feel bow season should not allow cross bows. Yes. A 3 year old can shoot one accurately just like a gun. They really do make it impossibly easy. And I don’t know many people that can’t actually shoot a bow if they wanted too. My girlfriend draws 28#s and had no trouble shooting through her buck this year. Would I care if they went back to side locks and only stick bows, hell no.
Crossguns and compguns......this is funny stuff. I'd imagine some of the Leatherwall trad guys are likely laughing at the circular crossfire between the two "guns".
What'll it do to the drawing odds in IA for archery tags especially nonresidents? Will it take more points to draw. My IA outfitter stated it's easier to draw a muzzleloader or shotgun tag than an archery tag.
The vast majority of my hunting has been done via vertical bow and arrow, but as a retired soldier I dabble in hunting with other weapons. Each intrigues me to its own degree, and I must admit to some fun in configuring crossbow setups and hunting with them. The vertical bow is still a superior weapon for spot and stalk, but the crossbow gets the nod for ambush hunting (especially in cold weather). I have nothing against their use and they are a great tool to get young folks into hunting, and a great system for aging archers to transition into. In fact, a lot of bowhunters, maybe even most, started with another weapon and then took up the bow. Crossbows are already legal archery gear in most states and the primary argument I hear against them is guys from the west who fear they may lose exclusive resident access to early season archery hunts.
I do have to ask: Based on the relentless and unapologetic attacks by western state resident hunters against crossbows and non-residents, why should any of the national organizations or non-residents come to your aid when there are issues affecting hunting in your state? If the constant refrain is “this is ours, nobody else is welcome,” then why should the rest of us continue advocating and sending money to support you or game/habitat issues in your state. If your system was self-supporting I wouldn’t be asking, but it’s not - mostly funded by non-resident, Federal money, and conservation orgs. So, it’s a fair question.
Was only a matter of time. And as others have said, this is just a foot in the door. Deer management should be left up to the DNR, not greased politicians & special interest group lobbyists!
Nine years of crossguns has totally ruined what was left of buck quality on Indiana public land. And filled the once quiet woods with gun hunters all of October.
As I sit here an read all the negative comments, I thought of my best friend. Hoping that no new is good new. The last thing he said to me was, well I guest next hunting season I'll be using a crossbow to hunt. Do to an illness, he is having his 3rd open heart surgery in 12 years. An he is only 62. He told me that if using a crossbow is what it is going to take to get me out and in a stand. That is what I am going to do. Just hope that nothing bad ever happens to you. Because I don't want to listen to you whine, piss and moan about how I wish I could get out and do things like I did, before my accident or my illness. I worked 19 years in the ICU. I have seen things that I don't wish on my worst enemy. I have listened to family members. Too many flashbacks, it hurts. WHO cares what someone else is using. If it gets them out of the house and in the woods, that is all that matters.
These crossbow-gun comparisons are absolutely absurd. Go ahead, maintain the insanity as a meme, but it’s simply not true. A crossbow is an archery style weapon for the most basic of reasons - it fires an arrow, propelled by a string that transfers energy created by and stored in bowed limbs = same basic energy transfer system to the arrow as a vertical bow. The main difference being a mechanism to lock the string at full draw and a platform based interface to release it (most of today’s vertical archers also use a mechanical release system, just no draw lock). Both a bow and crossbow primarily kill via a sharp cutting broadhead. A rifle on the other hand is generally a breech loaded weapon designed to fully contain a cartridge-based chemical reaction, releasing high-pressured expanding gases that propel a bullet through the a bore. The bullet kills by hydrostatic shock and tissue damage caused by the expansion of the metal bullet as it reacts to resistance from the flesh it impacts.
Boris, There is little to no debate about allowing the handicapped to use crossguns. It’s the inclusion of the able bodied that is the problem here. That’s a huge difference!
Do you also think it’s a great idea to just do a three month any weapon season including rifles and unlimited buck tags? Why not? That would get people in the field.
Spiral horn, There’s a reason archery seasons are long and gun seasons relatively very short. It’s because of the difficulty and lower harvest rate. Game management professionals made these common sense season decisions decades ago.
Please tell us why you think it’s a great idea to have greased politicians & special interest group lobbyists manage our wildlife rather than educated IDNR wildlife professionals?
Nine years of crossguns has totally ruined what was left of buck quality on Indiana public land. And filled the once quiet woods with gun hunters all of October. That’s the sad fact. First hand 30 years of observation. I wish I’d not misfiled my Kingsbury FWA harvest stats for these last ten years, or I’d post the Holocaust. It’s the sobering reality.
Yes Zim, that’s probably part of the problem. For a very long time archers have been blessed with very liberal bow-only seasons. I know here in the east we have early antlerless bow only, regular archery that runs clear until the main gun season, then late archery which runs thru January.
So, maybe you’re onto something here. Bowhunters have been long-spoiled with special seasons which give them first-crack at the game and expanded opportunities throughout the year. Wonder how many would remain dedicated to the vertical bow if there was just a contracted any-weapon season? It’s a good question. Personally, I’ve bowhunted many species when I could have used any weapon, wonder how many would make the same choice? Fact is bowhunters have been pretty spoiled with special season access.
Woods walker, just for your information, crossgun and compguns are basically the same. One shoots horizontal while a compgun is. Vertical, not much difference. Guys, get use to it, xbows are here to stay. It's the same thing when compguns showed up, an arrow shot by compressed limbs with sights and trigger release etc... For all you compgun shooters to complain about someone shooting a xbow is rich, truely.
Zim, I know it is an emotional issue. But there really is no proof that crossbows are ruining harvest/game management anywhere they have been included in the regular archery season - just barroom talk.
All weapon systems have become more lethal in recent years, and the game management officials I’ve spoken to in recent years are most concerned about the impacts of long-range rifle hunting. They are finding more and more dead and unrecovered rifle shot deer each year, and that’s only what they actually find.
Exactly Zim, great comparison chart. And don't just take my opinion of it, take it right from a major crossbow manufacturer, RAVIN crossbows. Not only do they offer a "Sniper Package", but their major tag line is "Meet Your Next Rifle"!
Same thing happened in PA years ago! It wasn’t the sportsmen who were pushing for full inclusion..................it was the MANUFACTURERS!
I’m not against disabled using them- in fact I used one in the late season last year due to a shoulder injury. I just don’t think they should be used in the archery season by ABLE BODIED Bowhunters.
Spiral Horn, No proof??? Are you crappin me again? How old are you? Have you hunted for 30 years on public land in a state which transitioned to crossguns over that time? To observe things first hand? And had printed harvest sheets show the deer harvest drop 70% gradually over nine years? Call Kingsbury FWA, Indiana and have HQ mail you a copy. I’ll try to get one next week. What those won’t show you is the zero mature bucks you are going to see while sitting on top the bunkers in September these days. A far cry from 2010.
I don’t care who uses what as long as it’s legal, so this is just an observation. Those who cite greed as the reason for allowing more crossbows ain’t fooling anyone except themselves. It’s greed, (thinking someone else is gonna kill “your “ deer), that makes you hate crossbows so much. Same with baiting. You’re afraid someone is gonna be successful without expending the time, energy, or whatever that you have. Just admit it and you’ll sleep better tonight ! ;-)
A touchy issue from both sides. I for one am against crossbows in archery season for able bodied hunters. And yes, I shoot a compound and longbow. Is there hypocrisy in shooting a compound while simultaneously being against crossbows - yes.
Where we all struggle is where does the line get drawn. I for one draw the line when you are no longer holding any weight - forget about % letoff. When you cock the weapon and hold it till you see a deer, take weapon off safety, place crosshairs on said target and squeeze the trigger - just seems too “gunlike” for me. I say keep them out of archery season. The whole “getting more hunters out there” doesn’t really work for me either. If that’s the case, when does this ever end? Letting people rifle hunt during archery season would “get more hunters out there as well”.
I don’t think greed is the motivation for most. My concern is for the deer herd in Iowa to continue to have the potential to produce high quality hunting with mature deer. Many of the people fighting against more liberal seasons have already secured there place in Iowa these rule changes will have little to do with a guy that owns and leases large tracts of land. Iowa is changing there are as many big of deer as ever, but they now occur most often on super farms located in neighborhoods of like minded people. The public land and private that allows open hunting are subject to much more pressure than ever before. If I could make one change to Iowa it would be one Buck per year for residents.
Zim, I’ve bowhunted quite extensively, but that’s not what this is about. Drycreek nailed it — some folks are afraid someone who doesn’t hunt exactly the same way they do just might have an opportunity to pursue what they feel is “theirs.”
Also, for the guy in PA - my nephew is a taxidermist there. As far as I can tell herd and trophy quality have never been better. He takes in more and more monster bucks each year. That has nothing to do with crossbows. Gary Alt changed the antler restrictions to a minimum number of points — he had his life and families lives threatened and was run out of the state. But he was right, and the current number of mature deer proves it.
"Same thing happened in PA years ago! It wasn’t the sportsmen who were pushing for full inclusion..................it was the MANUFACTURERS!"
True. But it was the archers that bought them once legalized. They could have rejected them, but they flocked to them in droves. Now, 60% of our archery harvest is by crossbows. Best part, rifle season guys are bitchin' because we are still shooting all their deer Even though we made it easier for the transition.
Told my wife I can't wait till archery season this year. When that heavy framed chocolate color rack 8 point steps into my 80 yard shooting lane, I'll nestle that shoulder stock against my shoulder, wrap my fingers around the pistol grip, rest the forestock on my shooting rail, settle the iluminated reticle that already has the range set via a bluetooth range finder behind the shoulder, snick the safety off and squeeze the trigger. Just like my compound, right?
Just for grins....how many bow hunters also hunt during gun season?
How many states allow bows to be used during the firearms and ML seasons?
Michigan allows bows to be used from Oct 1st thru the end of the deer seasons on Jan 1st. You can use them during firearms season...just have to wear orange. That is at least a 3 month opportunity to bow hunt. The idea was mentioned above that maybe bowhunters have become spoiled with the long seasons or opportunities to use them. That is something to think about.
If an air bow (the new ultimate evolvement and replacement for the crossbow) can be called a "bow"; then I think it's entirely logical that the other can be called a crossgun. I fail to see see why anyone that would call themselves a bowhunter would have any acceptance of a crossgun (bow)...whatever in an archery season except for the disabled.
True dat. We've lost 250,000 hunters overall since the early 2000's. But we've picked up 50,000 bowhunters. Crossbows are not a recruitement tool, obviously. Just merely shifted the numbers.
LB shooter your argument is like saying because some of us joined the argument after prohibition ended that we shouldn’t care when weed, meth, cocaine are legalized. Sure you were around making the stuff with your backyard chemistry long before I was born that doesn’t mean we should start handing out crack in pez dispensers.
If I thought rolling back archery season to a stick and string only was possible I would be pushing it. That said it’s not going to happen and people need to choose a side in the moment there at, not a moment that happened 50 years ago.
If passed separate tags, separate registration that is where the real numbers can be tracked. Anyone who states that crossbow, airbows, springs bows are any where near using a hand held compound, recurve, long bow, etc. is full of it. So stop the BS argument it's all been done before. Recruitment. doesn't happen just shifts hunters. That said if you don't care what the method of take is admit it but don't try and claim crossbow, airbow, springbow as a hand held bow P & Y trophy its not. Start your own recordkeeping group for the crossbows,etc. just like gun hunters have theirs.
My dad hunted with a compound until age 75. Shoulder surgery after deer season put an end to that. He bought a crossbow just to get back out in the deer woods. Killed a buck with that crossbow at age 76 and hung it up. Said it just wasn't the same as bowhunting and he completely lost interest. Been three years now.
Never forget a response I got from man several years ago, while on a turkey hunt in Kentucky. He killed a buck the previous deer season with a crossbow at age 86 (in Indiana on a disability permit). I was an officer for the IBA at the time and we happened to be fighting another crossbow proposal. He told me... anyone that tells you shooting a crossbow is similar to shooting a compound is either lying to you...or lying to themselves.
Call it what you want but I differentiate by the SKILL SET needed to shoot well. It may incorporate elements of the bow but it requires NO archery skill. The skill set needed to shoot a crossbow well is the same set that one uses to shoot a rifle well. NOT the skill set used to shoot a BOW well.
Lots of good stuff here. I'm going to get a crossbow that shoots 4 bolts, 200 cameras, a 1,000 lbs of corn and go to a no kill no pay place. We are heading there. Maybe using drones soon? I long for the days of having uncrowded woods. I'd be willing to just have 2 weeks of handheld bow. Go back to much shorter seasons instead of 5-6 months half that. I do think most (not all) of crossbow hunters are mainly gun hunters. I see more pressure in "bow" season as gun season. I'm starting to not care if we just have any/all weapon season as i don't think the pressure will be that much greater. Then the crossbow and gun hunters will experience what we do and get to experience the frustrations of over crowding, over harvest lower trophy quality and outdoor experience. The idea of a bow is/was for it to be primitive (like foster slugs, flintlock muzzleloaders). Hunting was supposed to be good woodsmanship, playing the wind and seeing how close you can get rather than how far you can shoot out of a shooting house (scent control and movement and weather are non factors). Technology/money/TV ruin the experience.
I’ve never shot a crossbow in my life but we should celebrate their status today because there is no doubt whatsoever there will never be less in use then at the present time
I can't imagine giving up hunting because I can no longer shoot a trad bow, or compound bow. I like hunting. When the time comes, I will hunt with a muzzle loader or rifle, and I'll be just fine.
""I can't imagine giving up hunting because I can no longer shoot a trad bow, or compound bow. I like hunting. When the time comes, I will hunt with a muzzle loader or rifle, and I'll be just fine. ""
I'm thinking the same thing if my day ever comes where a physical condition shuts me down. I'm open to a crossbow and would use one, but I'll focus more on guns and maybe give up bow hunting all together. The unintended consequences of some folks being anti-crossbow I suppose......a circle shoot. The archery industry ends up losing a bow hunter and the bow hunter's money. If there is no replacement....that's a net loss for the sport and the industry.
I always giggle when I hear guys who are shooting compounds complain about crossbows. Until you make your won self bow, knap your stone heads and put them on cane arrows you have little to complain about when somebody is using the latest technology.
How about those new bow sights that automatically determine the range? How about......
You get the drift.
For some people it's the only option. For others it compensates for a lack of experience or ability. Those of us who have hunted with stick bows for many years could say the same thing about all you "wheelie guys".
Take a deep breath and acknowledge that our sport is evolving. We really are all in this together and our number is much smaller than those who are opposing us.
“ Agree with Shawn. no one wants to put in the work anymore to become proficient with archery equipment. ”
If you can say that as a compound shooter without a trace of irony, I either don’t want to play poker with you.... or I would REALLY like to play poker with you.
“ All weapon systems have become more lethal in recent years, ”
All weapon systems EXCEPT the single-string bows and period-correct muzzleloaders for which these seasons were originally conceived.
“ Have you hunted for 30 years on public land in a state which transitioned to crossguns over that time? To observe things first hand? ”
Have YOU hunted OTC Archery units over the past 30 years and seen the Hunter density go through the roof as compounds transitioned to higher speeds and higher let-off and as laser rangefinders have made precise range measurement a snap??
The thing is...,,
Most midwestern and eastern states have zero interest in making it any more difficult to kill more deer than they ever have, because they are overrun with whitetails. For the wildlife managers, it’s NOT AT ALL about mitigating the hunting pressure, but ALL ABOUT getting tags punched.
There are a few states left out West where there is still some thought being given to managing participation in order to preserve a Quality Hunting Experience, but the high-tech lobby is so powerful that there is very little chance that the equipment restrictions will ever be walked back to require equipment which is the functional equivalent of that for which the season was created and INTENDED.
And I’m willing to bet that 90% or more of the people reading this thread are very, very HAPPY about that, because that allows them to keep on hunting with equipment which probably doubles the maximum effective range that they would enjoy were they required to give up their releases, their let-off and their rangefinders.
And yet they still feel entitled to P&M about crossbows in “their” season.
Don’t get me wrong - I DO NOT want crossbows in Archery seasons, but too, I am not the least bit troubled by the thought of firearms seasons being expanded in order to thin herds where they need thinning, ESPECIALLY if it would be accompanied by some renewed restrictions on what counts as “archery” gear. A lot of places, the “vertical bow” crowd just isn’t getting the job done...
Anyway... this is one of those things where it’s pretty hard to find a place to stand where nobody can call you a hypocrite. Gotta draw the line someplace, of course, but just about EVERYBODY wants it drawn exactly where they’re already standing....
Whoever is planning to load up a big boat with all the crossbows and dump them into the ocean to rid the sport of shortcuts and easy passes to success please save room for trail cameras on the ship
I'll keep this simple.....you can't hope to maintain a season structure built on weapon limitations/restrictions (Archery only) if you keep allowing more advanced weaponry to be included. Crossbows will be replaced by the next best thing that people want.... to the point crossbows will be like self bows in terms of usage by the hunting population.
Instead of always looking at this issue always in terms of "me, "you" , "I"...perhaps our time would be better spent trying to preserve a special season format with all it's weapon limitations....as long as it is open to all as a free will participation choice. Anything less and in a few short years you will evolve the special season formats right out of existence.
Shortcut the season structure and deer hunt and buck quality will be hurt for everyone across the board. Archers and gun hunters alike. There is no such thing as a free lunch. That is the real issue here.
Remember all you compgun guys, the crossbow was here long before the compgun, so who is the techy now? Let people, shoot what they want , if they are hunting then they are on the right side. They aren't taking any deer away from you. It's up to the DNR to control when , where and how game is taken. If it's legal then so beit. I know the Illinois DNR is certainly doing a wonderful job of screwing up the herd, I'll need to travel farther and won't be able to hunt as often. Where I normally hunt they are killing the herd and this year was tough, next year is going to be tougher.
Remember all you compgun guys, the crossbow was here long before the compgun, so who is the techy now? Let people, shoot what they want , if they are hunting then they are on the right side. They aren't taking any deer away from you. It's up to the DNR to control when , where and how game is taken. If it's legal then so beit. I know the Illinois DNR is certainly doing a wonderful job of screwing up the herd, I'll need to travel farther and won't be able to hunt as often. Where I normally hunt they are killing the herd and this year was tough, next year is going to be tougher.
LB, Don’t kid yourself. The ILDNR has had its hands tied behind its back for years. They are not allowed to manage deer. It’s greased politicians & special interest groups that manage deer in Illinois.
I'm not going to argue about whether a crossbow is like a gun or not because a blind man on a galloping horse can see that. But a few things for thoughts should be noted in this debate. 1) Yes crossbows has put more people in the woods 2) Almost everyone who owns one says they can't draw a bow -BS 3) In WV I predicted it would take about 5 years for crossbow kill to surpass the Archery kill ,well I was wrong it happened the 3rd year. 4) Good thing is it is a separate season that runs concurrently with archery season and can be tracked. 5) When it is said too many deer bucks or does are being taken we can pull up stats tell tell the numbers. 6) Yes they have put many women and children in the field -which I consider a good thing. 7) They were already in place for a truly handicapped or inquired person by DR. permit 8) Has it effected my hunting - not yet 9) Some young stud will tell you he killed a nice buck with a bow and shows you a picture with his crossbow. I just say congrats and move on. 10) "Come on Man"
Smile it's all good is what we are told Yes it is the manufactures because it happened here! Have a good day!
For all of the rifle hunters out there, do not complain once your state goes full inclusion for crossbows in the archery season. Just look at Ohio, one of the first states along with Alabama that has had full inclusion for about 3 decades. Because crossbows have out killed deer in Ohio compared to true archery tackle at a rate of 3-2, and the length of their archery season, the Ohio firearms season is 6-10 days. Where I live in NYS, the Firearms season is about 4 weeks long, but 61% of firearms hunters want to hunt with a crossbow during archery season. You reap what you sow!!!!
Crossbows have really overtaken compounds up here. We have a 3 week baiting season and it is mainly the baiters who use them as they can sit further away from their bait pile. Anyone can get a permit from a doctor and if one is 68 and older, they can use one. I have never shot one or even a compound as I have been a longbowman for over 60 years and only groundhunt with no bait. My only weapons are either my Meigs #46 longbow or one of my flintlocks. When you only use primitive all these years, no handicap at all, just get close and be patient. It’s my brains versus a buck’s instincts. The only reason I win is because I don’t quit trying. You can’t kill one on the couch. The main impact we are seeing up here to high tech is that trad archery is making a comeback.
JL You asked how many people hunt with archery equipment during rifle season and I am one of those hunters and this is why. For starters I’m 100 percent against crossbows in archery seasons. In Wyoming the archery season for whitetail is September 1 thru 30 but the rifle season is November 1 thru 30 so if I want to hunt late seasons with my bow I can legally do that during the rifle season which I do. We knew that once they legalized crossbows it was going to make a big impact on seasons and and the biggest one was competition for tags most of them are limited quota tags. For a the record I have hunted with traditional equipment for more than 30 years and before that I did hunt with a compound bow. If you can kill an animal at 150 yards or more because you are shooting a crossbow and you are not in anyway handicapped you belong in a rifle season not an archery season.
This year I hunted 3rd rifle season for mule deer. I did it with a recurve bow. 1) because I did not draw an archery tag. You see, we don't have over the counter deer tags, you have to draw. 2) I actually like the 7 days later in the season while it is cooler and we are approaching the rut. Also I prefer hard antler over velvet.
Don’t really understand the fuss about crossbows, OH is used as an example above that has allowed them for decades and in that time OH continues to excel as a big buck producer as shown on this site. Just because it is legal doesn’t mean we have to partake.
I have experience with two crossbow hunters. One just took the easy road and is no longer welcome to hunt with me. The other is as serious as they come and limits shots to no more than 30 yards. He is welcome on my farm any time.
“ We knew that once they legalized crossbows it was going to make a big impact on seasons and and the biggest one was competition for tags most of them are limited quota tags. ”
Yup. Crossbows don’t get more people into the woods; they get more people into the woods DURING ARCHERY SEASON.
And just like most compound shooters, they come looking to cash in on a better hunting opportunity without having to step up to the same level of challenge and face the same reduction in odds of success which drove the more favorable length and timing in the first place.
Some people will probably argue that the success rates haven’t changed all that much, but I might be so arrogant as to suggest that perhaps the rates were as high as they were “back then” because the only the guys who hunted the season were those really who knew what they were doing. Or at least (certainly in my case) didn’t know so much but wanted to hunt with a bow badly enough to be willing to burn that ONE tag per year on a low-odds proposition in order to learn.
And the equipment drove self-exclusion very effectively.
And FWIW, the single best argument against allowing crossbows into archery seasons is that (unlike compounds), that technology existed before the seasons were implemented, and was SPECIFICALLY AND DELIBERATELY EXCLUDED because it was contrary to both the letter and the intent of the the authorizing legislation. The argument for repealing some of the compound tech is that the original intent of the season (a high-quality, low pressure set-aside with a negligible effect on herd size/population dynamics, and participation self-limited by the difficulty of succeeding with the primitive equipment) that experience has been badly compromised by overparticipation brought on by unforeseen advances in technology being introduced into a season created specifically FOR “Retro” equipment.
And of course that last post of mine was about Out West, and this thread is supposed to be about IA, so I will reiterate....
If the current pool of bowhunters is not willing or able to get the herd down to Goal, then the state has no alternative but to increase participation - by whatever means available - in order to increase harvest.
Totally different dynamic; too many hunters out west with too great an impact on the resource; too few tags punched elsewhere and the herds are out of control.
“ OH is used as an example above that has allowed them for decades and in that time OH continues to excel as a big buck producer as shown on this site. ”
Yep. It’s not about what tools they’re using to manage the herd; it’s about how well they’re managing it.
Having worked with lawmakers/wildlife officials for over 35 years, I can tell you for a fact that wildlife is managed for increased license sales....within the arguable limits of the wildlife resource. Often the later gets a little blurred. As an executive director of a state wildlife agency once confided to me, 'we have to run this thing like a business" I think we might be the ones that are being baited and just don't see it.
Glad someone brought up the Ravin Ad from a few years back: there was a magazine ad with the caption “your next rifle” and an obviously staged television commercial with someone firing a tight 3-shot 100-yard (field point) group from a rifle platform. Knew the moment I saw it that it would be “gasoline on the fire” for the anti-crossbow crowd — it’s totally misleading advertising and just plain dumb — feeds a false narrative.
While I spend a great deal of time and effort to finely tune both my compound bow and crossbow for repeatable hunting-rig accuracy and practice at ranges out to 80 yards or so, that’s just not an acceptable range (for me personally) for shooting at game. And, folks will have to do a lot of fine tuning and practice to get that kind of accuracy. Don’t know where folks are coming up with 100-150 yard crossbow shots. Some may be dumb enough to try that, but I don’t personally know any that do it with a crossbow. However, know way more than a handful of guys taking those kinds of shots with compounds. Just look at the hunting videos of Lee Lakosky and Levi Morgan. They are on hunting shows doing it repeatedly, and I can name a host of others taking game 100+ yards with a compound bow. Just sayin.
I think crossbows are pretty neat weapons. I like about any weapon from a spear to a catapult. But they are capable of a lot more than just 10 years ago. People are getting the idea of 100 yards plus because its doable and they see it on TV and they see what they are capable of themselves at the range. Accuracy-wise it is a reality with today's gear. There's more to it than accuracy but thats a whole different discussion. Crossbows may be good for overall hunting recruitment but they have proven they are bad for bowhunter retainment in many places. Whitetail heavy states show a dramatic switch from bows to crossbows after they have been included a while.
Just grabbed the first result I found when I googled 100 yard crossbow. Shot is at 3:46
I bowhunt with trad gear but I also own a 1000 yard rifle. I enjoy stretching it out at the range and have taken game at some long distances. A calm critter at 500 yards is basically a gimme shot with a solid rest. Much less chance of something going wrong than a shot from my longbow at 25 yards. Technology marches forward. In seasons where equipment limitations are what create the benefits like longer seasons, less crowding, easier access to limited tags, etc., embracing technology can mean working against our own interests.
I don't have a problem with crossbows anymore than I do with modern day Muzzelloaders & their "bullets" of today. BUT, I woud like to see them in a season "other" than archery. We now have muzzelloaders in our Archery seasons & THAT would be a great place for crossbows in my opinion (Iowa). I know I've Elk hunted with them in Colorado too. I do have 2 family members (long time archers, Illinois) that now use a crossbow BUT both have health problems that actually do make it impossible for them to draw a bow. They still have that desire to hunt but this was their alternative. Neither has "ever" gun hunted biggame. I do know they are dead accurate with them a hell of a lot farther than they would ever consider a bow shot. Old school bowhunters, 25 yds or less..
Where have all of you been the last ten years? Did you just now learn about the scoped and cocked crossbow and it's impact on general archery seasons, and the overall bow and arrow hunting culture?
Glunt, thanks for that video. Kind of makes my point. This knucklehead takes a 100 yard shot at a tame (high fence) deer in a completely controlled environment from a pre-ranged, hard shooting platform, and makes a marginal shot.
Fortunately it killed the deer, but I wouldn’t have been bragging about it — arrow dropped 8ft+ along the way. How would that same shot have gone with a wild deer in an uncontrolled environment???
Here’s a video of Levi Morgan taking a fully alert wild Dall Sheep at 105 yards with a compound while on uneven and unstable terrain. So, technology-wise, how is the crossbow enabling the hunter to do something that cannot be done with a compound? It’s not. I’m certain that I can easily find other 100-yard+ compound game shot videos with a simple search — in addition to all of the hunts I know of personally.
The difference is that I can hit a pie plate consistently at 100 yards in one afternoon after unboxing a crossbow. I have been shooting archery my whole life. Almost all trad but I worked in the industry and have shot thousands of arrows from compounds as well. If I started today, I may never get to where I can hit that pie plate consistently at 100 yards with a compound. Compounds are extremely effective and miles ahead of where they started for sure. A guy can see Levi make those shots and buy the gear but only a few can duplicate it in the field behind their house. I can sit a complete novice who has never fired a gun and have them ringing gongs at 700+ every shot with my rifle if the wind is calm.
The max equipment capability of compounds and crossbows may be a tight race but the max shooter capability with the two is not.
The notion that most any average Joe can rig a crossbow with a hunting setup and consistently hit a 6-inch circle at 100-yards under simulated hunting conditions within a single day or two is nonsense. This kind of expectation drives the folks who sell crossbows crazy, as that’s often the expectation when someone buys one. And many get frustrated when discovering that it’s not. I will agree that the average inexperienced Joe will get a crossbow grouping accurately at 50-60 yards much faster than the inexperienced compound user. But even most brand-new compound users are already shooting respectable groups prior to leaving the pro-shop these days. I can also rattle off at least a dozen folks I know personally who’ve taken more than one game animal at 100-yards+ with a compound. Agree there is a quicker learning curve with the crossbow and a bit less to tune, and firmly agree that the difference between what a dedicated shooter can squeeze out of compound vs crossbow isn’t the chasm most think it is.
" I can also rattle off at least a dozen folks I know personally who’ve taken more than one game animal at 100-yards+ with a compound."
Wow, I've been bowhunting for a long time, know several very accomplished bowhunters but don't think I know of a single one that's killed anything at 100+. Farthest I can think of is a good friend who killed a moose at 80.
Pretty well traveled bowhunter and will firmly stand behind my statement on the 100yard+ compound shooters. In fact, was in camp two years ago when a guy did it on a Muley (not that I’m condoning it). All one has to do is scrub the hunting shows and YouTube and you’ll find a few. But I’m not about to start calling out folks I know to satisfy a doubter or two on bowsite. Also, when the personal attacks start is usually a sign that folks have little more to add and any useful discussion is pretty much over.
People like Lee Lakosky and Levi Morgan are not “Joe Average Bowhunter” and thus are hardly representative of the typical compound shooting bowhunter out there. They are the best of the best when it comes to shooting compounds in hunting situations. A bunch of us traditional archers tried to warn the bow hunting community of the dangers presented by crossbows back in the 1980-90’s. You guys did not want to listen. Now crossbows are taking over your season. Told you so!
On my first YouTube search = 128 yard compound bow shot taking a Tsessebe (not that I condone shots at that distance). Shot is about at the 8:45 mark. This guy isn’t a world-renown archer or bowhunter as far as I know. Searching will yield plenty of other examples. Just sayin
Another Tim Wells Video = 140 yard African Warthog with compound. He’s got a bunch more = 105 yard Whitetail, and many more. He’s probably got the most on video, but I believe I know someone with more 100-yard+ compound harvests than Tim. Anyway, my main point in all of this is that folks are very quick to throw-up an anecdotal knucklehead taking a 100-yard crossbow shot at a deer and say that’s the norm (it isn’t), but defensively explain away when there appears to be an equal or greater number of compound shooters doing the same thing.
In most practical hunting situations there is very little difference in the effectiveness between a crossbow and a compound. I would venture to say from personal experience most people are not taking more than a 45 yard shot with either. When they do it is the exception, and most folks are going to have little success with either. Even with a crossbow you have to account for distance, speed, bow noise, and arrow trajectory. Pins, crosshairs whatever.... Neither is a rifle, and neither kills as effectively as a rifle. If you shoot a crossbow or compound you are going to miss at some point. Maybe you will with your rifle too, but good luck to you if you actually believe a crossbow is a rifle. I'd love to see the videos of all your whiffs.... I do think the trad guys out there that are successful hunters have something to brag about. The level of work that it takes doesn't really compare to sighting in a compound or crossbow. The gap is miles..... If you think your compound bowsite is not a "scope", go shoot a stick bow. I'm no one to talk smack, but I shoot all three, and stick bows are buy far of a difficulty level that is not comparable to compounds and crossbows. Additionally, now that my shoulder is 100%, I have no intention of hunting my crossbow. My compound is so light, and within real world hunting ranges, I can't see what the point of lugging around the crossbow would be. It will probably end up the hands of a buddy with no bow. I think I could hunt with my trad bows, but I will need to get CLOSE. We'll se what happens. All the whining about crossbows seems to come from folks that have never hunted them. They make some things easier, but present their own set of problems... mainly over confidence, and lack of practice. I feel sorry for the guy who shoots his crossbow at a stationary target a few times, and then goes into the woods. For all the guys who think crossbows are rifles, they're going to have some seriously disappointing results hunting.
“ I can tell you for a fact that wildlife is managed for increased license sales....”
Funny you should say that, because here in CT, it appears that total deer hunting license sales have declined since crossbows were allowed in regular archery season. You are allowed to use “archery“ equipment during firearms season, and without buying a firearms tag, so… Considering that firearms season doesn’t start until the middle of November, why the hell would you waste your time & money putting into the lottery for a shotgun-only tag for public land (valid for a week or maybe 2) if you already have a license to use another weapon with basically the same effective range for 3 1/2 MONTHS and which gives you access to a lot more public land as part of the bargain??
At this rate, they are going to have to move the lottery-only shotgun season to cover the peak rut with archery equipment prohibited during that period just to get people to buy a license!
The actual effectiveness of the weapon isn't the issue. It's the low bar for entry. Crossbows are easier than hand held, hand drawn bows. Actual kill rates aren't much different. The big difference is how quickly you can become proficient enough to take game. A crossbow from a stand or blind on a rest is a great way for an inexperienced or unpracticed person to send an arrow on target. Plus, the whole family can share the same crossbow. That has positives and negatives. Kids, handicapped folks or people who simply don't want to spend the time and tinkering and practicing to become proficient can go in the field and find success. Thats great if your goal is getting the most folks into what was bow season (State agencies). Not so great if you are competing for limited tags, you want to see bowhunting thrive or you own a bow shop that relies on setting up and maintaining bows, range fees and leagues to stay afloat.
As I said, crossbow hunting may be good for hunting numbers but full inclusion in bow season is proven to be bad for bowhunting. The time and effort the "knuckhead" in the video went through to be able to make a 100 yard shot is likely a thousand miles apart from what a Levi or Tim Wells put in.
Glunt - Completely agree with almost all - but will leave the full inclusion into bow season to the wildlife managers in each state as they are all a bit of a Rubic’s Cube - correct seasons and bag limits isn’t simply a weapons issue. Will use PA and Ohio as examples - when introduced the bowhunting communities in both states screamed that it would ruin bowhunting for everyone. But it didn’t and the herds are thriving with plenty of mature bucks. I’m also pretty sure the knucklehead has vastly more prep time in fine-tuning lasagna and potato salad than Lee or Levi ;-).
As I watched the video I was saying "No way is he going to shoot right now with the other buck right there at ANY range. Then I replied to my self "Of course he is"".
I recall seeing an article a few years back the average distance at which deer are shot in the gun season in Illinois was under 30 yards, with archery at 17 yards. The biggest advancement in hunting success wasn't the weapon or camouflage, it was reasonably priced commercial tree stands. I strongly believe this is still true when it comes to deer hunting in corn belt. The barrier to entry in the archery seasons is fading with the addition of crossbows and at least some of the gun hunters will try their hand at the earlier seasons. Certainly this will mean more pressure on the limited public lands during the archery season. Realistically that is a tiny portion of the deer harvest. Far and away the vast majority of deer are taken on private property and changing a weapon or hunting earlier in the season very likely is not going to have a huge effect on the overall state results. Finding an avenue for more people to fling an arrow won't suddenly open up farm grounds or wood lots. The general decline in public land hunting quality had been on going well before crossbows became an issue.
Robert Kiebler? Who the F are you? Some Elfen magic dude lives in a tree? I been on Bowsite since 1996 and never heard of you. You don’t know me. You have no idea where I have or have not traveled. And WTF does that have to do with crossguns?
FYI - I have been on the other side of the planet the last 7 straight years. But have no interest in hunting any place other that the US, where I have hunted in 18 states from Oregon to Maine, Minnesota to Texas. Starting at a place you may be familiar with.........the Kenedy Ranch. But most all public since those days decades ago. So what?
You, on the other hand, are a nobody, nobody knows. Well, except maybe by the other elves.
GF, it's often the total decline of total license sales that fuels the inclusion of new weapons....all on the premise that 'new opportunity' will diminish or abate the rate of that license decline. In the state I worked with, factual evidence was presented that quite a few of the surrounding southeastern states had experienced a license sale decline...(even in their archery license sales) after the crossbow was introduced after the first year. The natural question by state officials was always, 'why do you think that happened?' and I would always say that the cause was unknown, that states weren't interested in doing a study for a failed idea. Ultimately, such concern for declining deer license sales data were washed away by state officials believing that crossbow legalization would prevent an even further acceleration of declining license sales. People will rationalize any decision to justify what they already want to do.
All states are not the same. Not all states use a tagging system and some states like the one I reside have a primitive weapon season that you can use any weapon of choice (ie firearms) on private land..... as long as you buy a primitive weapon license. Sometimes when you loosen weapon restrictions within a season, it leads to a total collapse of that particular season structure. Just the license sales of that particular season remain.
In my state, the 'airbow' is now the new evolving change for archery season with bills introduced every year to legalize it in the gun , archery season, disability usage..etc. When I presented evidence against crossbow legalization to government officials in our state; I said that it would incrementally lead to further weapon inclusion request in an archery format. I showed them pictures of an airbow device in 2013...and they all just scoffed & laughed. As it relates to Iowa and some of the rest of us , as the old saying goes...you have to be careful what you wish for....
You hit the nail on the head Missouribreaks. People aren't seeing the big picture because you don't need an archery season to manage wildlife populations. Just add a few days to firearm season (usually it takes about 14 days of archery harvest to equal one day of gun harvest in my home state) and it solves a lot of problems for wildlife agencies.
As further inclusion happens in a restricted weapon format, weapons leap frog each other until one day, no one knows why we even have 'that silly season' as it differs very little from firearm season. Archery license sales can be maintained by merely it's requirement to hunt with a weapon of choice.
Seems farfetched? As I mentioned earlier, primitive weapon season in my state evolved so quickly that the state abandoned the actual premise of a PW season and now only requires a PW license to hunt what ever you want. It divested itself, in principal, of a PW season...but not the license requirement.
All states will transition at different rates. Those states that primarily rely on lawmakers (as opposed to wildlife agencies) to make hunting laws, will likely transition faster as any lawmaker can file a bill asked for by a constituent. If it has support and can be justified by increased license revenue.... it usually becomes law over time.
Gun noun 1. a weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise
I agree with the argument that crossbows do not belong in an "archery" season. But calling them "crossguns" takes any credibility away from your argument right off the hop. I personally don't care if you kill deer with a ball peen hammer and a handful of corn. Whatever floats your boat.
I choose to follow the current regulations and abide by my own ethics.
I have taken animals with a rifle, compound bow, recurve, and even "gasp" a crossbow. Albeit, I was having shoulder issues at the time and couldn't physically draw a bow. It was cool in its own way, but I prefer to use a bow because it gives me personal satisfaction. I could give a rat's a$$ what anyone else thinks about how I hunt. This in-house squabbling makes me roll my eyes and thank the Lord that I'm out of grade school. I thought Americans believed in freedom of choice?
As far as I know, most all states offer 'freedom of choice' within the general (firearm) seasons. On the other hand, special seasons (archery or muzzleloader) are seasons built on weapon restrictions. To advocate freedom of choice within those season frameworks advocates the elimination of those seasons. I can't speak for anyone, but I would think that the archery only seasons being eliminated for freedom of choice might face tough sledding with many on this archery forum.
So, as a nonresident, I suppose this will make it much more difficult to draw a license? As more people will apply because now they can use a crossbow????
Why is it that people get so upset over the term crossgun....but say nothing about the same play on words when 'air bow' legislative is introduced? It seems all fair play to me. You either stand for archery only seasons.... or you don't.
Bowbender77 I prefer bolt gun. ;) As others have said, when it has a stock, forearm , scope, trigger guard, safety and it takes a winch and a bolt to “cock” it, it’s not a bow.
“ GF, it's often the total decline of total license sales that fuels the inclusion of new weapons....”
Well, that’s not the way that it worked out here…
Shotgun season (Public) used to be by lottery only and split into A and B. Success rates in A (with hunters applying for ONE specific unit with numbers limited to a density of 1 gun per (I believe) 20 acres) was about 18% last I checked. Success in B was around 5%. Public ML comes after that at a 3%-4% at last check.
So if you’re a Public Land guy and you can’t shoot a bow, you had to buy 2 deer tags plus a general firearms hunting license in order to hunt about from mid-November to around the Solstice, except that you would have a week and a half or 2 week blackout period, depending on which shotgun season you drew. And no Sunday hunting, so really, if you didn’t burn vacation time during the week, you would get to hunt basically 2 days with shotgun and 3, maybe 4 in ML.
Oh, and when I first moved out here, you also had to own both a shotgun AND a muzzleloader, because MLs weren’t permitted in shotgun season. And (still the case) you need 1 tag for Public Land Shotgun and 1 for Private; same for ML.
But now.....
You buy ONE license that’s good for small game and large, and you have access to a lot more public land (because bow-only units) and you only need to own ONE weapon to hunt whenever you like from 9/15 to 1/31. And Private land is OK on a Sunday. And only 1 Archery tag required, public or private.
I used to buy tags for “firearms” AND private firearms deer AND private ML deer AND Archery; now, I only buy archery. Problem is.... a lot of other folks do likewise.
And the harvest numbers aren’t changing ALL that much, because the vast majority of deer are killed on Private anyway, and it’s not as if allowing crossbows made a lot of people decide to open up their property to hunting.
What HAS changed, I suspect, is the pressure on Public land during the rut, in particular, but likely all season long. And as a guy who would rather be mobile, on the ground, I am less interested than ever in hunting Public, because if there is only one nitwit in an entire parcel of state forest who will take a “sound-shot” on an either-sex tag, I’m pretty sure I’ll find him....
And the idea of spending more time glassing the woods 20 feet off the ground than at eye-level takes a lot of the fun out of the idea of a day in the woods. So these days, if I don’t have Private lined up, I don’t buy a license at all.
So. Sample size of 1. From 4 hunting licenses/year to 1 to zero.
And THIS is why we will lose. THIS is why our grandkids will only read about public land hunting.
Non Hunters could not care less how the deer herd is managed. They just don't want to hit one with their car. Laws are introduced to reduce and manage the herd. If WE can't agree to ALL get along, WE won't get the PRIVILAGE(hunting is not a RIGHT) to help manage the herd any longer on public lands.
If you want to have age structure within a deer herd you do exactly what Iowa had been doing. Shotgun only season, firearm season after the rut, no crossbows.
No offence but, I don't think the lawmakers care about the age structure of the deer herd. They aren't QDM folks, just population control and revenue folks.
Ravin R500 and R500E: 3.6" when cocked, 7.6" uncocked, 500 fps, Sniper Package, and "E" has an electric (battery operated) cocking and uncocking device. Lancehead F1: Limbless using two drums to draw the string back, 3.9" wide Excalibur Twin Strike: 2 sets of limbs, 2 triggers, allows for 2 bolts to be pre-cocked and pre-loaded, and bolts to be fired as fast as the trigger can be pulled. If anyone can honestly say that a crossbow is archery, I really have nothing else to say about it.
Crossbows are archery! They are used in many states archery seasons and have been for years and will continue to be used in archery seasons. Lumping the R500E in the category of all crossbows is laughable as nothing on earth has ever been created like it. As technology advancements wont stop, restrictions and regulations will sooner or later be adjusted. Every weapon and every season has limitations and regulations and has for a long time, crossbows are no different. Another dose of reality is that states dont manage for "Big Bucks on public land for archery hunters only".
powder, Iowa does. And Illinois too on many properties. Why else would they have 4 point restrictions? I even have pamphlets put out by ILDNR to promote them. BTW - Awesome movie you were in.
Just like here in WI it's all about the money. It was voted down multiple times here by sportsmen. But crossbow companies, the NRA, and legislators rammed it through. I'm not as hardcore against them as I used to be. But those saying they are the same as a vertical bow are idiots. If crossbows offer no advantages. Why are they the weapon of choice for handicapped, elderly, and young hunters? If you want to use one because they are easier, have at it. But man up and admit you are using it because it's easier. Yes they are a LOT easier than any vertical bow to shoot an animal with as they require no skill.
I agree this is just a stepping stone towards full crossbow inclusion throughout the archery season. That is the industry M.O.. It is the crossbow industry pushing the agenda, not state F&W. States don't need crossbows for deer management. Just a money grab for the industry....as usual.
Full crossbow inclusion in Iowa won't be kind to nonresident bowhunters. Basically, we're talking gun hunters, that likely never had a desire to shoot a bow, competing against bowhuters for limited NR tags. Provides these folks a means to experience the Iowa rut, so expect numbers to be high. The NR archery tags that now take 3, 4, 5 years to draw....will become much more difficult to draw.
I get some of the arguments in states that offer unlimited deer tags, but Iowa is a different animal. Full inclusion will allow crossbow toting gun hunters to push bowhunters out of Iowa's archery season. Just the thought of that pisses me off.
There are states that manage public lands for larger bucks, bulls etc. Some call them trophy game management units, or APR ( antler point restriction) units etc, etc.
If a state is going to allow crossbows in the general archery seasons, may as well eliminate all special seasons and have one general deer season, use any legal weapon you choose.
" If a state is going to allow crossbows in the general archery seasons, may as well eliminate all special seasons and have one general deer season, use any legal weapon you choose."
That's where we're headed. It makes the most sense to 85% of the population.
Given bowhunters have always been minority participates in the the hunting population (compared to firearm users), if it were simply freedom of choice, archery seasons would have been gone years ago. Instead, we have to work with the same diligence that the founders of the archery seasons did....in keeping them. Freedom of choice not only is applicable to 'weapon choice'; but also the choice of individual free will participation...the later which is open to all sportsmen with the regardless to the weapon limitations within an archery season.
AS far as I am considered the only solution to this is just ban any tigger mechanism to deliver an arrow in bow season and all would be good, just have to go back to fingers which the Almighty gave us, but that would be too simple.
I think it would be a lot easier to enjoy hunting the way it was supposed to be if manufacturers and firearm enthusiast weren't always trying to change decades old bowhunting traditions for their own greed and selfish interest....
Manufacturers produce items that have potential demand. It is interesting so many hunters support their efforts, that is where the blame rests. Most hunters have a different culture today, they do not want to hunt the harder way. Blame the hunters, not the manufacturers.
"AS far as I am considered the only solution to this is just ban any tigger mechanism to deliver an arrow in bow season".
Or, instead of this, how about no bow or crossbow can be cocked/locked and ready to shoot while sitting in stand. You have to cock when you see something coming.
One suggestion I might make, for nonresidents wanting to hunt Iowa without potentially waiting 6-10 years (if this gets passed) would be to join the Iowa Bowhunters Association. They are basically the only lobbying voice here that is actively fighting this. I’d also urge Iowa residents to join as well, if you’re not a member.
12 yards, That would be hard to enforce. Not many wildlife officers are going to be watching someone with a repeating arrow gun cock their gun before the shot.
I think in states like OK where we have a two buck limit they just need to make it one. The only people that would kill their buck with a crossbow would be people that wanted to archery hunt but had disabilities everyone else would just stick to their rifle.
Jack I would be fine with a 7th century style crossbow. How can you look at a Ravin and say it’s the same weapon as something from the 7th century. Shoot today’s arrow guns are probably more accurate than the weapons that fought the cival war.
LINK, I know, I was just drawing attention to the biggest reason why I believe Crossbows don't belong. There biggest advantage is they don't have to be drawn and held in the presence of game. For that reason they are more gun like than bow like. And innovation makes them more gun like every year.
All states are different, but when you live in a state with a 30 day archery only season and a nearly four month (no tags) either sex gun season; you find it hard to believe that archery seasons are biologically required. Rather they exist due to user desire and license revenue...within a responsible overall biological harvest plan. Gun seasons were already in place when archery seasons were formed in the 50's and wildlife agencies were likely doing just fine before that event. For the most part; gun seasons are the primary tools of wildlife management as opposed to bows and arrows.
I had a trusted lawmaker that I worked closely with that had an interesting perspective. He said that you might delay something, one, two, three.... or 20 years based on lobbying efforts; yet he said the only way to defeat something permanently was to defeat it with the pocketbook. His thought was wildlife agencies have a very aristocratic nature in that they view themselves as the ultimate authority and you have to submit to their guidelines. They don't have to answer to many people. His idea was that you have to make wildlife agencies think of you as a 'customer'. As customers you have the authority to purchase their product (a license) or not. He said a boycott of license sales would be the only way to get their attention and he said it likely wouldn't take but a year. Warden trucks don't run without gasoline. I wouldn't recommend that approach; but you have to admit he brought up a good point in principal. User desire plays an important part in season setting and the regulations that govern it.
link, They still make crossbows without wheels, just like they make bows without wheels. then the cams came along. I can remember guys with their 33 percent letoff giving the guys with the 50 percent letoff a hard time, then the 65 percent came along. now its up to 90 percent letoff.
I’m sure they do jakapr. And the number of people shooting a traditional crossbow is likely barely measurable. I know several crossbow hunters and see plenty of kill pics and have yet to see a traditional crossbow kill. Soon crossbows will mostly be what I posted above with the armalite arrow rifle(A-AR).
I will never use one,, but I will buy one for my 65 year old father, another one for my wife, and the kids will each get one to start out hunting. We owe it to the animals to be accurate and ethical. Does this crock sound familiar? Classic Wisconsin and other Midwestern mindset, the enablers !
Just go to any weapons for deer and let the individual choose.Its a done deal, bowhunting seasons for the most part have been morphed into a generic deer season anymore.
This fight has been lost a long time ago. Join 'em or do your thing thats the way its going to be anymore.
Yep, the bow and arrow seasons were given away, and to other hunters of all things. Good way to show appreciation for one another, lets all hunt together with whatever weapon we choose.
"I will never use one,, but I will buy one for my 65 year old father, another one for my wife, and the kids will each get one to start out hunting. We owe it to the animals to be accurate and ethical."
Like it or not. That statement represents the vast majority. We can either accept that and all stick together or we can keep fighting amongst ourselves and watch the paid sharpshooters takeover herd control. (see new "legal action" thread started today)
I won't use one either but, I'm not going to hate on them like I used. Life is too short to be grumpy all the time.
I don't like them but lets not go to the extreme and say just open it up to any weapon during all deer seasons and see what happens. Thats another whole ballgame. Bowhunters would have little chance of filling tags with the boomsticks going off all season. Shawn
“Ravin R500 and R500E: 3.6" when cocked, 7.6" uncocked, 500 fps, Sniper Package, and "E" has an electric (battery operated) cocking and uncocking device. Lancehead F1: Limbless using two drums to draw the string back, 3.9" wide Excalibur Twin Strike: 2 sets of limbs, 2 triggers, allows for 2 bolts to be pre-cocked and pre-loaded, and bolts to be fired as fast as the trigger can be pulled. If anyone can honestly say that a crossbow is archery, I really have nothing else to say about it.“
^^^ I’m in this camp till I’m worm food. They are not archery tackle.
I also believe they do belong in a separate season for obvious reasons.
A couple of things we do have to face is the fact they drive revenue for the states, and the manufacturers. That is not going to change.
The effort of complaining about them far outweighs the effort to regulate their use.
Thanks, Rich. I got an email from IBA just today. HSB158 passed out of the subcommittee, so it will move forward to the next round, unfortunately. Quoted from the IBA email I received: “At the subcommittee meeting yesterday, the Ravin lobbyist confirmed what we already knew; the crossbow industry’s ultimate goal is to move the crossbow into the archery season.” My area state representative is the chairman of the Natural Resources Committee. I sent him an email stating my opposition to this bill. I urge all Iowa bowsiters to contact their representatives and do likewise.
Won’t a separate season just cut into existing seasons. There are only so many days in a year. Are we suggesting they take July or February or something. If not days in existing seasons will be lost. Won’t that be the same problem as merged seasons.
Ya, I get that glazed over odd look also when the same people who evidently use an xgun try to say anything to make them feel better about not being able to use a bow.
I do miss my grandfather and great uncle griping about my unsporting compound bow back in the 1980s. They hated the term bowhunter which was associated with gadgets and junk to compensate lack of woodsmanship true archers had to learn. Glad to see we've matured to the point of crotchety-ness like the past generations. I want my archers (longbow and recurve) season back from the bowhunters (compound and other stuff with sights and now triggers). The tradition of angry old dudes continues...
In the west especially, we are also talking about resident AND non resident hunters becoming highly efficient with the scoped and cocked crossbow and mowing down elk, mule deer and other big game at distances COMMONLY surpassing 100 yards. In any state, the residents will make the greatest use of the advantages the scoped and cocked crossbow offers. Wisconsin is a measured example of who uses the scoped and cocked, mainly a bunch of former resident bow and arrow hunters, and former resident gun hunters. That trend will happen everywhere the scoped and cocked is legal for all during what once was, bow and arrow hunting only seasons.
Won’t a separate season just cut into existing seasons. There are only so many days in a year. Are we suggesting they take July or February or something. If not days in existing seasons will be lost. Won’t that be the same problem as merged seasons.
There’s a real simple solution to this whole quandary. Just have hunting season, no archery season, no muzzleloader season, no firearms season. Just hunting season. But some folks would still piss and moan .........
In the Midwest there is a little complaining, just not much. The reality is the vast majority of one time bow and arrow hunters now actually use crossbows, buy them for their kids, their wives, and of course parents. They hunt with them too, but are not open about it. The compounds hang more and more to collect dust. Read the Wisconsin forum, lots of pretend and very part time bow and arrow hunters there. Michigan basically has no forum participation, very few real bow and arrow hunters left in that state.
We have a lot of crossbow hunters up here. They outnumber the compound hunters in my area. I am the only trad guy in my town. I bet that in my entire county there are less than 20 totally traditional archers. What we see up here is that as bow technology advances, everyone jumps onto the latest and greatest, spends some time chasing the few deer up here, and go back to the semi rifle. When they reduced baiting to 3 weeks, that really thinned out the bow hunters. Late season up here is great because the woods are empty and we always have tracking snow. As a full time longbow hunter, it is hard hunting up here, but with a 3 month season and persistence, it pays off. Groundhunting is the way to go up here as our deer don’t follow that one square mile rule. They cover a lot of ground.
Dry creek I’m with you on the season. One 2-3 month season, 1 buck limit, chose your weapon. I’ve hunted every rifle season for the last 8 years....with a bow. However if you want to see archery survive that’s probably not smart. The masses aren’t like the bowsite die hards. If every state were any weapon, how many bow manufacturers could that support. Choices would be limited and anyone in archery retail would starve.
LINK, if your premise of archery shops failing is true, then that means that most “bowhunters” only bowhunt so they can get out in the field first, and more than anyone else. That’s exactly what the crossbow and inline muzzleloader guys are doing, trying to get more days afield. I bowhunted with a compound from 1978 until two years ago with about three years in there that I didn’t bowhunt. Crossbows weren’t nearly as prolific until the last ten years or so, and I can’t remember when they were made legal for everybody, that’s how little it means to me. I just can’t understand the hate some of y’all have for an inanimate object and the people who legally use them. I have one, but I’ve never pointed at a game animal. It just ain’t my cup of tea, but I don’t think of myself as special because I don’t hunt with it, and I firmly believe that some of y’all do.
I would not over think the term "special". They are not special as individuals, but they are special as real bow and arrow hunters. That is how hunters originally got their own special archery season, which now is in grave danger of being totally lost. There is a difference.
I didn't read all the replies or any of the attachments. My suggestion is to learn to live with it. When it hit TN, someone suggested that crossbow get it's own season. Then someone said, " what part of the current archery season do you want to give up? Front half or back half? Learn to live with it and keep the full archery season as is."
Missouribreaks, whoever they is, they is not special to me, but they think they is special, that’s the point. They has been spoiled by having the earliest season and in most cases, the most days to hunt. Therefore, they must be special.........they thinks. ;-)
In Tennessee, don't you guys get to kill like 12 deer each season? So who cares what weapon is used in that case. In Colorado all deer tags are by draw. To archery hunt in the GMU I live in, I get a tag every 2 or 3 years. So yeah, I don't want crossbows in the general archery season. That doesn't make me "special." I also can not imagine a 2 or 3 month any weapon season. There would be no deer left in Colorado.
The west better continue to fight hard. Remember, the door opens by allowing anyone with a doctor's excuse to use a crossbow, scoped and cocked. Doctor's become extremely lenient and pretty soon a larger percentage of hunters have a doctor approved hunting disability. Painful joints etc can be very, very, very subjective. It becomes the doctors best interest to believe the patient and write the excuse. Same for work place restrictions. Very subjective!!!!!
Special seasons are not about being special, they are about using a weapon that lessens the average hunter’s success rate, thereby making less of an impact on the species being hunted. Some states are overrun with deer, and land mines would not destroy the herd numbers. Other states, especially the Northern states where we are on the Northern fringe of deer habitat, with low deer density, are vulnerable to high tech, possibly. The biggest impact to our herd came when someone discovered a glitch in the baiting law years ago, allowing deer baiting all deer season. That changed hunting forever up here. We did manage to get it reduced to 3 weeks and eliminated it late season when our bucks, coming out of the rut with deep snows, were starving and suckers for bait piles. Without baiting, a very low deer density, and them being very nocturnal, I don’t think crossbows help you much up here other than requiring little practice and shooting further if you hunt fields or cuts. For groundhunting/tracking, I think my longbow beats a heavy crossbow in these thick deep timberlands. While a crossbow shooter is trying to line up on a buck that bailed out of his bed right in front of him, my wood arrow is on its way, guided by years of practice and dedication to one weapon.
