Moultrie Products
What could possibly be killing them...
Moose
Contributors to this thread:
Ucsdryder 06-Feb-21
MarkU 06-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 06-Feb-21
Mike Ukrainetz 06-Feb-21
sticksender 06-Feb-21
spike buck 06-Feb-21
Mule Power 06-Feb-21
bigdog21 06-Feb-21
Rupe 06-Feb-21
DL 06-Feb-21
Highlife 06-Feb-21
elkmtngear 06-Feb-21
Jaquomo 06-Feb-21
Jaquomo 06-Feb-21
Bake 06-Feb-21
Mule Power 06-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 06-Feb-21
bigdog21 06-Feb-21
Glunt@work 06-Feb-21
redquebec 06-Feb-21
txhunter58 06-Feb-21
txhunter58 06-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 06-Feb-21
paul@thefort 06-Feb-21
paul@thefort 06-Feb-21
paul@thefort 06-Feb-21
paul@thefort 06-Feb-21
Bake 06-Feb-21
bigdog21 06-Feb-21
bigdog21 06-Feb-21
bigdog21 06-Feb-21
GF 06-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 07-Feb-21
Kevin Dill 07-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 07-Feb-21
Trad PA 07-Feb-21
trophyhill 07-Feb-21
Jaquomo 07-Feb-21
Ermine 07-Feb-21
Mule Power 07-Feb-21
bigdog21 07-Feb-21
bigdog21 07-Feb-21
txhunter58 07-Feb-21
trophyhill 07-Feb-21
txhunter58 07-Feb-21
Mule Power 07-Feb-21
Jaquomo 07-Feb-21
Mule Power 07-Feb-21
bigdog21 07-Feb-21
Highlife 07-Feb-21
paul@thefort 07-Feb-21
GF 07-Feb-21
trophyhill 07-Feb-21
deserthunter 07-Feb-21
bigdog21 07-Feb-21
Jaquomo 07-Feb-21
Bake 07-Feb-21
GF 07-Feb-21
trophyhill 07-Feb-21
Jaquomo 07-Feb-21
GF 08-Feb-21
Glunt@work 08-Feb-21
trophyhill 08-Feb-21
Mule Power 08-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 08-Feb-21
TD 08-Feb-21
Scoot 08-Feb-21
BigOzzie 10-Feb-21
Croixbaby 10-Feb-21
No Mercy 10-Feb-21
No Mercy 10-Feb-21
TrapperKayak 11-Feb-21
Bigdog21 11-Feb-21
Jaquomo 11-Feb-21
solo hunter19 11-Feb-21
Jaquomo 11-Feb-21
BigOzzie 11-Feb-21
Ucsdryder 11-Feb-21
Mule Power 13-Feb-21
Mule Power 13-Feb-21
Bigdog21 13-Feb-21
smarba 15-Feb-21
MathewsMan 15-Feb-21
Matt 15-Feb-21
Huntcell 16-Feb-21
trophyhill 16-Feb-21
From: Ucsdryder
06-Feb-21

Ucsdryder's Link
Are they that dumb or do they just not want to say the “W” word? Can’t wait for Colorado to have our moose population decimated by the wolves.

From: MarkU
06-Feb-21
The moose population is going down hill in all the areas where there are no wolves. Can't blame the dogs for that.

06-Feb-21
Wolves will decimate Colorado’s elk population. I don’t care if moose numbers are falling in places that supposedly don’t have wolves. It’s just the apex predator on the whole planet. What harm could they do?

06-Feb-21
An unchecked wolf population will decimate big game populations, especially moose when they have enough elk to keep them going. And then omnivorous bears, especially grizzly bears will keep the big game populations permanently suppressed, after that even wolf numbers will drop. You’ll just have lots of scenic country to look at after it’s all done. The mountains of Alberta, Canada and many other countries have proven this out...

From: sticksender
06-Feb-21
The one western state with a booming and expanding Shiras Moose population over the last 20 years is Colorado. During that same time the Moose population in Wyoming and Montana and Idaho went to hell. But I guess it’s just a coincidence that it was only Colorado that didn’t receive a wolf infestation during that time.

From: spike buck
06-Feb-21
Bear's here take down quite a few Moose Calves each Spring here in Ontario. When our Spring hunt was cancelled down went the Moose. Wolves take their share also.

From: Mule Power
06-Feb-21
Bears hibernate. Wolves are at it 24/6/365. Game animals are much more vulnerable in deep snow. Moose with their long legs stay pretty high eating small branches that are above the snow. Elk prefer a little easier life. Where moose winter they are sitting ducks! They’re always the first to go when wolves enter the picture.

From: bigdog21
06-Feb-21
Why is it ok for all you to kill elk for sport and fun and wolfs get a bad rap for trying to servive ? how many elk killed by hunters a year vs wolf kills. and dont say you hunt for food the meat locker is way cheaper then a elk hunt. elk farms are cheaper then a elk hunt. so killing for fun is ok but not for survival. and hummans kill way more animals .

From: Rupe
06-Feb-21
I think you’re on the wrong website bigdog21

From: DL
06-Feb-21
Wolves kill for fun as well as other predators. There are accounts of wolves killing 15+ elk two different nights and none eaten. A friend had 24 chukars killed in one night and only one eaten by a raccoon. A neighbor had four pack goats killed in one night by a lion and none eaten.

From: Highlife
06-Feb-21
I have a friend who thinks wolves only eat rabbits and mice after watching a national geographic show.

Asked him if he was drunk when watching and mistook the wolves for foxes or coyotes lol

From: elkmtngear
06-Feb-21
"and dont say you hunt for food the meat locker is way cheaper then a elk hunt".

If you are eating food from a "meat locker"...you are basically a contract killer. Some of us prefer to do the job ourselves, rather than paying others for the "dirty work".

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-21
Dr. Valerius Geist predicted that Shiras moose will become extinct everywhere these non native wolves are introduced. Before the CO vote on wolf forcing, he stated the only places they would survive were in CO and UT, where these wolves don't exist.

So maybe Utah will be the last stand..

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-21

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
But they only kill the weak and sick, so it's cool.

From: Bake
06-Feb-21
The day of the wolf died with the last big Buffalo herds. There’s no place for them now anywhere where major livestock operations exist.

Sure as a hunter I don’t like them. I seriously doubt my grandkids will have OTC elk hunting available to them. If wolf reintroductions continue with little or no management, elk hunting in the future will be like sheep hunting now. Big demand, small supply

But also as a descendant of a cattleman, with ties to a lot of people who depend on cattle to support their families, I will NEVER side with a bloody wolf.

From: Mule Power
06-Feb-21
Big dog really man. The issue since day 1 when we foolishly reached an agreement with anti hunters was to reach a certain number and then manage them like any and all other wildlife. But the anti hunters and people like you want them to be untouchable. On a pedestal a some kind of poster child for wild animals.

The other point worth wasting my breath on you for is that it is obvious that you are not a hunter at all. If you were you would not suggest that we hunt for $h1ts and giggles. It’s not about sport or fun. It’s a way of life. People like you can’t be taught to comprehend that.

Your post clearly suggests that hunting is unnecessary and any killing of animals should be left to other animals. So wtf are you even doing on this site?

06-Feb-21
Wolves are coveted by today's liberal game managers to replace human hunters. The libs have a plan.

From: bigdog21
06-Feb-21
I do hunt, one deer sex and size dose not matter, few ducks and some squirrel. but i do not cry because somthing else is also havesting animals, its life and yes many hunters today its a game, and when bitching whats? killing them off and putting the blame somewhere else instead of sharing The blame when we kill more . Live with it its nature.

From: Glunt@work
06-Feb-21
Wolves aren't responsible for every place that has issues with moose populations declining but they are a serious issue in many. Aside from the obvious reason that they turn moose into wolf poop, when a moose population declines we can, and do, adjust human take quickly. Wolves just keep eating. I don't blame them, thats their job and they are amazingly good at it. In the western US before settlement and removal of bison, the giant connected ecosystem and huge prey base could better absorb regional declines in prey. The modern west is very different with chopped up habitat, cities, agriculture, roads, fences and its missing a few million 1000 pound bison to eat.

From: redquebec
06-Feb-21
Bake made the most truthful and overlooked statement in the entire wolf debate. Here's his quote:

"The day of the wolf died with the last big Buffalo herds."

Do some research on exactly how many bison were killed in what period of time in our American past. The facts are staggering. Wolves were part of THAT ecosystem and with the decimation of the buffalo, the wolf's role changed.

Our whole American west ecosystem will never be able to re-establish the balance that existed before civilization. Attempting to will cause damage somehow, somewhere...and it appears that the moose is paying the price. Sad. All of it.

From: txhunter58
06-Feb-21
I think we need to re-establish Buffalo herds to all historic ranges.

From: txhunter58
06-Feb-21
“ The moose population is going down hill in all the areas where there are no wolves”

So your saying Colorado moose herd numbers are dropping in numbers currently?. And introducing wolves won’t decimate them

I will take that bet.

06-Feb-21
The libs are trying, they are multifaceted.

From: paul@thefort
06-Feb-21
Without thinning and new growth caused by wildfires, moose have less feeding and breeding habitat. According to Campbell, moose populations are highest in areas 40 years after a major wildfire. But habitat loss is not the only probable cause of moose decline. Tiny ticks also could be a big problem.Jul 21, 2019

From: paul@thefort
06-Feb-21
Disease, parasites may be the biggest initial concern for adults Another major component of the first year of the study was learning more about how adult moose died. Of the nine radio collared adult moose that died in the first eight months of the study, more than half were attributed to parasites and/or disease. Three of those were attributed to emaciation with a concurrent winter tick infestation.

Two other deaths were attributed to predation, one wolf caused and one lion or bear caused. Another moose died as the result of a vehicle collision, and one other cause of death could not be determined.

Researchers also performed necropsies — death investigations of animals — on moose that had not been collared, which revealed additional diseases and causes of mortality not represented in the sample of collared animals.

Again, emaciation – concurrent with a winter tick infestation – and parasitic disease were the leading cause of death, followed by infectious/inflammatory diseases, vehicle collisions, non-infectious diseases, neurologic diseases and predation.

“One of the most interesting things we’ve found is all the different ways moose are dying,” Roberts said “And there are a lot, many of which are driven by diseases and parasites. It can be several encompassing things, but many factors are associated with winter tick infestations, which seems to be the number-one issue so far.”

“Those are some causes of mortality we shouldn’t be seeing in any species — tick-related deaths, or deaths related to external parasites,” Hurley added. “But we are seeing them, and they are really specific to moose.”

From: paul@thefort
06-Feb-21
Predation is an ongoing research area,” Campbell said. “Moose rely on deep snow to avoid predators in the winter. We don’t always have deep snow. Without deep snow, then predators like wolves and mountain lions have an advantage over moose.”

From: paul@thefort
06-Feb-21
Moose challenges

The “perfect storm of issues” that moose are facing is widespread. Officials in Idaho, Utah and Montana have reported similar population declines, a trend that’s raised concern since the early 2000s.

“They’re influenced by a whole variety of issues,” Brimeyer said.

Predation from wolves, grizzly bears and mountain lions plays a role.

“Wolves start showing up in the late ‘90s,” Brimeyer said. “Around the same time, grizzly bears start expanding their range. They’re all a piece of the puzzle. I don’t want to diminish the role that predation played, because it’s pretty significant.”

Brimeyer said wolf hunting seasons are successfully keeping the predators in check in Wyoming, which could prove beneficial to moose.

In addition to predation, moose are threatened by other environmental factors, from massive wildfires that destroy habitat to tiny parasites that can bring mighty moose down from the inside.

Brimeyer said warmer, drier weather in Wyoming in recent years has made it easier for parasites like winter ticks, which attach themselves to moose in the fall, to stay alive and feed on the moose.

“In dry falls, those animals tend to pick up a lot of (winter ticks), which can affect their ability to maintain their nutritional status,” Brimeyer said. “Some of these animals can carry a very high tick load.”

A 2018 study on New Hampshire moose found that animals with high ticks loads died of emaciation and malnutrition linked to the arachnids.

Wyoming moose have also been affected by a carotid artery worm, a parasite transmitted by horseflies that constricts blood flow and can lead to death. The parasite’s target host, deer, are often asymptomatic.

“The moose is the wrong host for this parasite, so they have symptoms where they start walking in circles and eventually die,” Brimeyer said.

Humans aren’t blameless in the decline, either. Brimeyer said the department has seen an uptick in vehicle collisions resulting in moose fatalities.

From: Bake
06-Feb-21
Re establish Buffalo to natural ranges? You wanna import beef from Argentina and Brazil, and take away the livelihoods of over half a million ranchers? Sounds like a good idea

From: bigdog21
06-Feb-21

bigdog21's embedded Photo
bigdog21's embedded Photo
yes paul

From: bigdog21
06-Feb-21

bigdog21's embedded Photo
bigdog21's embedded Photo

From: bigdog21
06-Feb-21

bigdog21's embedded Photo
bigdog21's embedded Photo

From: GF
06-Feb-21
Funny, isn’t it, how people who will campaign for “science-based wildlife management” when it’s “the Libs“ who want to operate off of raw emotion are so quick to dismiss any serious scientific inquiry as pointless and stupid when it doesn’t fit their own narrative.

Predators aren’t evil, and they are not nearly as benign as a lot of people seem to want to think. They are just predators. Hating them for doing what they do is as absurd as anti-hunters hating human hunters for what we do.

In some respects, I would like to think that there is still room for the wolf in Colorado, but when you look at the level of conflict with them in places like Montana, Wyoming, Alberta… and I’m not talking about “decimated“ deer and elk herd‘s… I’m thinking more in terms of the stuff that Val Guist has written about with wolves quickly becoming acclimated to humans as a potential Food Source.... which is only one step removed from Food Item.... which is, frankly, not OK with me. Yes, that is a human-centric point of view. I am comfortable with that.

07-Feb-21
GF, you wanna give an example of anyone dismissing what you said. I haven’t read the first thing stating people don’t believe science.

From: Kevin Dill
07-Feb-21
Mankind has dramatically upset the balance between species on basically every piece of ice or rock on the planet. It’s not a judgment thing. It’s just how it is when one species overpopulates and becomes the dominant species or predator. We essentially can blame ourselves for the imbalances and problems which exist in trying to achieve the goals we want for wildlife. Man doesn’t want there to be balance in the natural sense, because that would never work into man’s plans and desires. So it’s really a strategy of constant manipulation and reaction to what’s happening with a given species.

The problem here isn’t the wolf. It isn’t the tick or the grizzly. It’s us. We’ve altered and created a world where animals can’t ever live in the original balance which once existed. But we refuse to blame ourselves. We blame anything which competes with our desires. People, wolves, bears, parasites, development.....it all works to suppress moose populations. These are big, strong animals, but they are surprisingly susceptible to the imbalances WE have brought to them. The wolf is a focal point of hatred for many hunters and ranchers. Wolves are of course simply doing what wolves have done for thousands of years. Hating them for it is human I suppose. But they’re not causing problems for moose because they’re wolves. They are causing problems because we (humans) think we know how to raise foxes and chickens in the same small barn. We can’t find a way to blame ourselves for losing chickens....so guess who loses?

The only balance we can achieve now is totally artificial. Wolves must die so we can pursue our own desires to have and hunt moose. Understandable. We created the problem and it’s ours to solve.

07-Feb-21
The Libs and Tribes in Montana are creating a large area in the Missouri River Basin to establish buffalo. The wolves and bears are coming too. Should be real interesting to see how the elk herd fares in the Missouri Breaks regions. Of course some of the area will become a National Park with protection from human hunting, while in other areas the human hunter and wolves will compete for the available tags, LOL.

Many hunters supported this effort by the APR (and several other International sponsored groups) under the promise they could do limited hunting, for a limited period of years, with tribal approval in most cases. Perfect example of hunters thinking short term, the antis long term. This is happening now, some buffalo already are established, with a few wolves having moved into the western areas ! Wolf tracks are not yet common, but are present in the Missouri Breaks.

From: Trad PA
07-Feb-21
Bigdog would a wolf stand by and watch a coyote kill off all of its food and say “oh well it’s nature”? Probably not, they would kill the coyote...which is also nature. The problem with people like you is that idea that hunting isn’t “necessary”, and it’s just a sport. If you think that hunting or game species don’t need to exist because “meat lockers” do then you’re part of the problem. Wake up or move on.

07-Feb-21
The liberal only operates on science when it suits their needs/agenda. It’s as plain as the nose on the Sphinx on the pyramid

From: Jaquomo
07-Feb-21
Bigdog, how would you like it if the Feds came into your hunting area and dumped a couple train loads of super-predators that never existed there before, which started hammering the deer you like to hunt. Wouldn't that be cool!

From: Ermine
07-Feb-21
Wolves don’t pay for tags. Hunters pay for hunting Licenses which goes to support wildlife and conservation

From: Mule Power
07-Feb-21
I’m hearing a common misconception. An assumption that hunters hate wolves. I have to disagree with that.

When I was outfitting on the Montana/Idaho border it was bad. The problem was very real. The moose were already gone, elk being hammered, and livestock also on the menu. Eventually I decided to sell the business which wasn’t easy.

Quite often people would say to me “Damn wolves I bet you hate those bastards” My answer came quick... no not at all. Hate makes it personal. I’m a realist. I know that the wolves didn’t conspire every morning to plan how they could do me harm. They don’t hate me or the animals they prey upon. Hate is a human trait, in my opinion not present in animals. Those wolves were just doing what wolves do. Things that humans do which is raising a family and teaching their young how to do the same thing. Is there a reason to take that personally and hate them? No.

If there is any hatred or animosity in me when it comes to wolves it is for the creatures who do get up in the morning and think about their agenda which is meant to harm me and the hunting heritage. The people with total disregard for other animals that are being decimated and no concern for livestock owners. Those are the bastards I’d rather see standing broadside at 20 yards! Those are the greedy ones not the wolves themselves. Unfortunately there will never be an open season on anti hunters so the victims of THEIR agenda become the moose and elk as well as hunters and ranchers and of course.... the wolves.

I think most true hunters feel the same way. If you read the comments on this thread nobody is really suggesting that wolves are evil and should be killed because of that. Instead most agree that problem as usual and as stated by Kevin is human beings.

So please don’t assume or suggest that hunters are out trying to exterminate wolves anymore than you would assume we kill elk and deer out of anger. Hunters have a track record of being the true stewards of the land. Fact! Any level headed opinions will always say the same thing: The problem are the anti hunters who sit in courtrooms bogging down science and logic. We have altered the landscape so we have to manage things. Those people tie the hands of us and state wildlife agencies and pretend the facts don’t exist. Their agenda is very obvious when you consider that the wolves were never endangered in the first place. They are just the perfect tool to eliminate hunting and to play on the emotions of the uneducated and serve as the poster child to raise millions of dollars to fund the anti hunting movement. Period.

So tell me again why ethical hunters who are willing to regulate what we do in the best interest of animals and their habitat should go buy all of our food at a grocery store??? What’s next a label on your store bought food that convinces people that no animals were harmed in the making of your steaks or hamburgers? Look around... we have a “hunter” on a hunting forum telling us that we don’t have to hunt for food the meat locker is cheaper. Lord save us. This planet has become a real clusterf¥€#!

From: bigdog21
07-Feb-21
80 years ago wolfs lived in colarado ,

From: bigdog21
07-Feb-21

bigdog21's embedded Photo
bigdog21's embedded Photo
please look up and read

From: txhunter58
07-Feb-21
Bake:

You don’t know sarcasm when you hear it? They want to restore wolves because they were there “back then”. Using the same FLAWED logic maybe we should restore the Buffalo? Neither makes sense in Today’s world

07-Feb-21
80 years ago Canadian wolves did not live in Colorado. Next?

From: txhunter58
07-Feb-21
Trophy, we tried that argument and it didn’t work sadly

From: Mule Power
07-Feb-21
Yeah Rick they were also in Montana and other places in the lower 48 too. Things were fine. Your buddies didn’t want to talk about that. They were busy selling the idea that wolves were on the brink of extinction.

From: Jaquomo
07-Feb-21
These wolves never lived in CO. Totally different subspecies despite what some Bowsite lefties claim. Bigdog, I see you are from Illinois. Wolves used to live there too. How about if we dump a few truckloads from Canada into your backyard. Wouldn't that be great?!

From: Mule Power
07-Feb-21
Lou just imagine how good the deer hunting would be there after they eat all the old and sick ones!

From: bigdog21
07-Feb-21
yes, Jaquomo be fine,

From: Highlife
07-Feb-21
No it wouldn't it's already illegal to shoot wolves in Illinois. Lol keep where you can hunt them.

From: paul@thefort
07-Feb-21
Rick, ie, Bigdog, The CSU online survey concerning the reintroduction for the gray wolf was flawed from the beginning claiming that 80% of Coloradoans wanted wolves to be restored in Colorado. Stopthewolf coalition knew that if we were able to show facts why the reintroduction was a terrible idea, that might turn the tide in our favor and prove that 80% of Colorado's population was misinformed. So we conducted, with the help of a survey company, a phone survey first asking the question, "based on what you currently know about the wolf issue, how might you vote.?" The results was in the 75-80% range for approval of the reintroduction. After given more facts about the reintroduction, the person surveyed was then asked, How would you vote now?, The response was now less than 50% in favor. The final outcome was 51% in favor and 49% against the reintroduction; and not the 80% vs 20% as shown my the CSU online survey. We lost by only 39,000 votes out of 3.4 million voters. I am sure if we would have had more time to get the word out, per the pandemic, the vote would have been in our favor, and against the reintroduction. THe CPW Commission and staff while on record against the forced reintroduction, per a state voting regulation, ie were under a "gag order" against speaking out against the reintroduction. Over half of Colorado County Commissions signed a resolution against the reintroduction, and all Colorado counties voters, except four along the Front Range and one near Durango, voted NO against the introduction. That is five out of 62 counties in Colorado voted Yes, the rest stating, Hell NO. So it seems that those outside of Colorado know more about the wildlife management needs than the trained professionals on the CPW staff and on the Wildlife Commission. There is NO need to reintroduce the gray wolf into Colorado but that did not stop the OUTSIDDERs who just WANTED them here, to raise 1.4 million dollars to force the issue and use the Ballot Initiative process to circumvent the Commission and the CPW staff. And what was never mentioned by the Prowolfers was the COST of the introduction. "oh the government will pay for it". I am sure Hunters and Fisherman will pay via, license fees, for the majority of it with the Game Cash fund and hardly any if no funding from the State General Fund. A cost of millions over the next 10 years.

I ask many prowolfers on how the wolf will bring back the critical balance of nature to Colorado once established as the Ballot Initiative stated. Never got a good answer except, "will look at Yellowstone" , or it will help the Aspen trees survive (no proof), or wolves will help with CWD (no proof) or wolves were here first."

It is very easy for those outside of Colorado to play Quarter back and believe the introduction of the gray wolf will benefit Colorado's way of life, and then those west of the Continental Divide will not be impacted in a negative way over time. But then they do not live there and have nothing at risk and nothing invested much like many along the Front Range who voted Yes, yep, nothing invested and nothing at risk!

From: GF
07-Feb-21
That’s a great post, Paul.

Yellowstone NEEDED more predators. Humans aren’t allowed to hunt inside the Park, the ungulates were out of control, and they were damaging/altering the natural environment. Nowhere outside of National Parks was this quite such a problem, though it is probably fair to say that deer and Elk numbers have been maintained at a higher than sustainable levels in many places. The Ft Collins area being among them, especially 30 years ago.... Too much Posted, unhunted land.

But outside of national parks, that is an easy problem to fix (on publicly-accessible land) simply by issuing more cow tags and doe tags during firearms. You can say what you like about rifle hunters, but when was the last time that one of them got hungry in January and ate your dog?

I love the idea of more big predators out there, even if it cuts into my odds of success.... but they are problematic even when their numbers are managed.... and they seem to have very little interest in sharing with ME....

I do think there are still areas which are big enough to accommodate managed populations of wolves - not that I think CO is necessarily among them - but they do need to be kept at limited numbers and restricted to the areas where they are desirable, and they need to be managed effectively in areas where they are not....

07-Feb-21
Yea GF. Kept at limited numbers. We were told that once remember? Next

From: deserthunter
07-Feb-21
Each wolf will kill 700 elk in their lifetime. Proven by science to be true. Pretty sure none of us will kill 700 in our lifetime.

From: bigdog21
07-Feb-21
wow 700,,, 350,000 elk and deer license in CO. a year

From: Jaquomo
07-Feb-21
Bigdog, your math needs a little work. Colorado loses an estimated 300,000 deer and elk to predators now, without wolves. A total of only 70,000 deer and elk are taken by hunters. Deer are under population objectives almost everywhere in the state, and declining for a variety of reasons. Elk are right at objective, by using cash-paying hunters to maintain that "balance of nature" the ignorant folks tout.

1000 wolves will put a monstrous dent in the animals available to hunters, but they pay nothing toward wildlife. I can't understand the mentality of a hunter who wants to screw up the greatest wildlife management model in the world, which balances human encroachment, habitat destruction, need for revenue, and maximizing opportunity to take home meat for the family (as YOU claim to do, Bigdog...).

From: Bake
07-Feb-21
And all from someone who doesn’t even live in Colorado . . .

From: GF
07-Feb-21
Controlled numbers - I never suggested that that’s what happened. It’s what’s necessary.

Trouble in Yellowstone was that nobody in the Scientific community anticipated what would happen when they dropped a couple of pike into the hatchery pond. Easy to say now that they should have seen it coming, but there were no data to suggest that the wolves would multiply as they did, nor expand into packs as large as they did.

You can call it a failure of imagination, but as a rule, Science doesn’t really DO imagination....

It’s kind of a problem.

07-Feb-21
I’m still trying to figure out what the term “re imagine” means everytime I hear a liberal say it......it’s one thing to have an imagination but to live life imagining what “could be” just because someone thinks, wishes or imagines or re imagines it could be, does not make it reality. It’s borderline delusional and in some cases totally delusional....

From: Jaquomo
07-Feb-21
Dogs have sex. As often as possible. Then they have puppies. And the puppies have puppies. Who knew? Certainly not "scientists" whose salaries and careers depended upon those puppies having puppies.

From: GF
08-Feb-21
“ Dogs have sex. As often as possible. ”

Wolves & Coyotes have sex about 1 month out of the year, and typically only the Alpha pair will breed. Just like their prey, they have to time it right and limit the number of pups that the pack needs to support, or survivorship is unsustainably low.

Yellowstone proved that what happens under natural constraints cannot fully anticipate what could happen under extreme, unnatural conditions. First time around, call it an Honest Mistake.

But we’re well past Round One. And failure to do anything to address the fall-out from the mistake is a whole ‘nother proposition.

OTOH, you don’t hear so much complaining from the guys in MN/WI. Kinda makes me wonder what’s the difference??

From: Glunt@work
08-Feb-21
"OTOH, you don’t hear so much complaining from the guys in MN/WI"

Drop into a restaurant during hunting season up north and its usually popular topic.

08-Feb-21
I’ve heard plenty of complaining from guys in Colorado, Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Washington, Oregon, AZ and yea my home state of NM. Cmon GF. Where have you been hiding?

From: Mule Power
08-Feb-21
I never did buy it that only the alphas mate and have pups. They are dogs. And just like raghorn bulls they will get away with whatever they can. Also when wolves mature they split off and go make a living elsewhere. They expand the territory. The rate at which wolves have increased and spread would suggest that there are more than 2 to three breeding pairs in a given area having pups once a year.

08-Feb-21

From: TD
08-Feb-21
I hear they have meetings with all the animals in the forest once a year and hash out who's the King and who gets to eat who..... then there's a great big party with song and dance that the "scientific" urban people imagine they join in on..... then they all go home and live happily ever after...

or was that the mermaids?..... I forget..... no matter, fantasy is fantasy.....

From: Scoot
08-Feb-21
"OTOH, you don’t hear so much complaining from the guys in MN/WI."

GF, how much time do you spend around folks from MN? If any, you are clearly talking to different people than I am...

From: BigOzzie
10-Feb-21
My $.02 from personal experience

I have over the past 10 years watched this debate with a front row seat. I watch moose from my deck, and have 4-6 reside on my property annually. I have only allowed one young lady to hunt moose on the property, that was a special case.

8 years ago I found a dead bull in the driveway, it was killed an eaten by wolves, I did a little CSI and found all the evidence I needed. That summer I started seeing wolves for the first time, the next summer they denned on my place, (took me 2 years to find it). Over the next 4 or so years the moose all disappeared.

I started trying to fill a wolf tag an hunted hard, (never got one) but the wolves moved off the place 3 or so years ago, and the moose are back in full strength.

During this time there was a large push to reduce moose tags due to a fungus? that was killing them? all kinds of tax money spent on research.

Seems to me the fungus? traveled with the wolves. Just saying.

oz

From: Croixbaby
10-Feb-21
First I've heard of a fungus being the culprit...in my neck of the woods I've heard of every excuse from ticks, global warming, lack of logging/burns, poaching, to trains...but wolves are NEVER part of the problem. When I lived in Minnesota the powers that be proclaimed that wolves ONLY eat the sick or weak...and if they did find a dead moose that wolves were feeding on then it obviously had "pre-existing conditions". Total crock of you know what, but people eat it up hook line and sinker. Sheep..

From: No Mercy
10-Feb-21
The moose population is thriving and growing in ND. We have almost zero wolves here. We have almost zero bears here. We have an almost unlimited food source for them. Hmmmmmmmm.............

From: No Mercy
10-Feb-21
Jaq-quit giving facts to Bigdog-liberals can't think straight with facts and they start misspelling things in posts and salivating all over their computers. The pink colored sky in the fairy tale world they want to live in is a reality in their mind only.

From: TrapperKayak
11-Feb-21
bigdog2,

Humans KNOW HOW TO MANAGE HUNTS SO ELK NUMBERS INCREASE OR REMAIN STABLE!!! CAN YOU SAY THAT FOR WOLVES??? dO UNGULATE NUMBERS INCREASE WHERE WOLVES PREDATE??? tAKE YOU BUNNYHUGGING MORALISTIC VIEWS TOWARD HUMAN HUNTERS ELSEWHERE. TK

From: Bigdog21
11-Feb-21
wolf and elk and buffalo all servived before we came here ?

From: Jaquomo
11-Feb-21
Yep, they did. Before 330 million of us came here. SMH...

11-Feb-21
This is to GF. I live in Wisconsin and yes wolves are a problem here. Not only for deer and other wild life but the farmers in the northern half of the state. Just about anytime a discussion about hunting in the northern half of the state breaks out you can bet the topic of wolves' comes up. Me personally i do not want to see them eliminated. They are part of the eco system but the do need to managed at an acceptable level to help maintain a healthy whitetail population and at a socially accepted level. If kept at a reasonable population most folks would have no problem accepting them as a natural part of the eco system.

From: Jaquomo
11-Feb-21
Solo hunter, I think the majority of hunters would agree with you. That they have become a political cudgel to be used against hunting and the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation is the problem.

From: BigOzzie
11-Feb-21
I will admit that when I am on the deck and they are howling, they are pretty cool.

But when they come up on the deck and rattle the pack rat out of my live trap in the middle of the night, they are not so cool.

oz

From: Ucsdryder
11-Feb-21
The sad part is the uninformed get to vote. Big dog is a perfect example. Spouting off BS claims that hold zero truth. But his vote, along with a bunch of uninformed voters (my girlfriends sister and husband) voted based on the feel good. My fault, I should have assumed they didn’t know better, but after I explained the reintro, both regretted their voting for reintro. How many of the “yes” voted for the same reasons.

From: Mule Power
13-Feb-21
Someone has to say it: Bigdog you sir are a dumba$$! Oblivious to the facts. You talk to hear yourself but have your fingers in your ears when others speak. That last post says it all. We had less traffic accidents back in the 1800s too. I won’t waste my breath explaining why!

From: Mule Power
13-Feb-21

Mule Power's Link
Here.... saves me lots of typing....

From: Bigdog21
13-Feb-21

Bigdog21's embedded Photo
Bigdog21's embedded Photo
Mule power@!@@ and same could happen with bears and lions

From: smarba
15-Feb-21
But we only follow SCIENCE!!!! Geist is only a delusional irrational whacko...(tongue planted in cheek)

From: MathewsMan
15-Feb-21
If you want to help the herds, kill lions and bears, they consume more wildlife every year than all hunting combined. State pays professional hunters and they kill more lions and bears that cause problems than the licensed hunters do.

From: Matt
15-Feb-21
"Dr. Valerius Geist predicted that Shiras moose will become extinct everywhere these non native wolves are introduced. Before the CO vote on wolf forcing, he stated the only places they would survive were in CO and UT, where these wolves don't exist."

Did he explain why that would be the case when there are Shiras moose in places that have had wolves all along (e.g. SE BC)?

From: Huntcell
16-Feb-21

16-Feb-21
By today’s logic, just ask Dr Fauci. Maybe he could recommend 3 masks and a shield to protect them from the wolves.....

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