Shuteye's Link
I'm looking forward to getting mine. As soon as my turn is up, ill be going in.
Government $$ are da best. Anyhow.... I worked with big pharma for awhile, developing assembly solutions for drug delivery systems. Time to delivery for new drugs/vaccines is typically in the 5-10 year range. This was done in under a year. My understanding (and please someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that instead of a normal "killed" virus vaccine, a genetically modified virus was used to develope the vaccine. The reason being, it's cheaper and faster. Well, in the machine/automation world there is an axiom whereby there are three outcomes available. Good, fast and cheap. Of those three, you can have two. Hence, if it's fast and cheap, guesss what it ain't.
There are has been no long term study as to the efficacy (which we have seen dropping), no long term study on side effects.... No thanks. I'll wait until it's been proven 45-50% effective like other flu vaccines and then pass on it as well.
My wife finished her 2nd round a couple weeks ago. I've enjoyed the better 5G reception for my cell phone. I'll be towards the back of the vaccination line, but you'd better believe I'll get the shot as soon as I can. I'm holding out hope that maybe we'll be allowed to go to Canada fishing late this summer with record of a vaccination.
Won't be surprised if they start trying to force us to take it. No problem with anyone that wants one. Never had a flu shot, never needed one. Don't need this one. Like Bowbender said, not nearly enough testing.
Its all to make sure everyone wears a mask for the rest of their life. You've been vaccinate, but can spread the disease. Wear your mask like a good soldier.
Dr. SG
No, Government mandates did that. The virus alone would have affected the economy, but not like this. We could have skipped ruining the economy, some places did. Your take on the vaccine makes sense to me.
Did he suffer from a serious form of the disease or die from it? If so, he would be in the 5-6%. If not, the vaccine may have worked just as designed.
As with all other viruses, you can be immune AND pass it along. Immunity doesn't mean it won't get into your body, it means when it does, your body knows how to kill it. While it's killing it, it may still be in your respiratory system until killed, so yes you can spread it by breathing, sneezing, talking. You can also catch it with reduced symptoms, again depending on your immune system. You aren't immune right when they stick the needle in, your body needs to do some work first. For most they will be immune, others, not so much and others their body may do nothing with it.
Just like every other vaccine.
One thing I'm fascinated with is that people who are concerned about vaccine safety think that's an original thought. Trust me -- the more you know about drugs and vaccines (and I've spent a lot of time learning such things) you know them as powerful weapons, not unlike firearms. Do i use them? You bet! Do I respect them? More than you'll know!
The potential adverse effects are something that is concerning, for sure, especially when you are talking about giving something to a healthy population. That's true with ALL vaccines. That's why vaccine safety is something that can't be ignored.
That said, I can't find any evidence that it is ignored. On the contrary, in the professional journals I see abundant evidence that vaccine safety is taken very seriously. I wouldn't have taken the shot if I hadn't read them and reassured myself -- so I won't go telling anyone else to just "trust me". But I remain deeply impressed with these vaccines.
X2...and I'm "old and healthy" ;^)
2.) Some people may still get sick shortly after getting the shot, especially shot 1. There has not been time for the body to build up antibodies to gain a level of protection. Given the time from infection to symptoms, it's possible someone could be infected 4-6 days before shot 1 and still get it... and given efficacy after only 1 shot (Pfizer/moderna) is 50-60% as I recall), even during the period between shots you could get it. You could also be in the 5% of folks who dont respond as well and end up getting some degree of illness. It's not impossible, but saying a few examples of folks getting sick around or after vaccination suggest it doesnt work is not a reasonable expectation. Oh, and you are not getting full benefits of the vax until about 2-3 weeks after the second shot... Soooo... Quit a while there where you need to recognize your are not getting the full protection a given vax can give you.
3.) North of 90% of people (94-95%) who get the two available in the US dont develop any symptoms if exposed. No one can totally say that means they are not infectious (see 1 above). People who get the vaccine appear to not get seriously ill IF they fall in the 5% who may still become symptomatic if exposed. In other words - the two currently available work frigging great.
4.) Feeling icky a day or so after a vaccine is your body doing what your body naturally does. With vaccination, it does that without you potentially experiencing significant consequences from natural infection.
You likely will see little pushback ditching your mask in WY. What do you think will happen to those who choose to do the same in the liberal strongholds in the US? They will be framed as being worse than the virus itself. Heck....I am in KY and our Governor is running a close race with the most liberal Govs on virus protocol. Eventually the majority of people here will just ignore him and go on with life. I just hope that everyone understands that the left is going to frame anyone not wearing a mask as a domestic terrorist. Without openly opposing our local governments we won't be maskless for a long time.
I am ok with people not taking the vaccine, but once everyone has the opportunity to have the vaccination I'm done masking. I am not sold on their effectiveness, but I will out of respect for my neighbor wear them. There will be plenty who won't take the vaccination and will be fine without a mask and be ok with any risk from their choice, but there will be plenty of people who choose not to take the vaccination and expect everyone else to continue to social distance and wear masks just to protect them. The thought of personal responsibility to these types is taboo.
The % of people I personally know who got sick after being vaccinated is high. From aches and pains to 3 day pounding migraines to outright flu symptoms.
Until 2 years ago I hadn’t had a flu shot in decades. Shortly after the shot I had the worst case of flu in my life.
So to use the car analogy that has been thrown about here, imaging if only 1 in every 10,000 designs for a new ford car or truck actually made it to the market. And those failures occur everywhere from the designers drawing CAD, initial handmade prototype vehicles, and after full manufacturing lines for that vehicle have been constructed.
No, I am not totally defending Pharma, just providing some perspective. There is no defense for companies that jack up prices randomly on a moments notice. It's also ridiculous in my opinion for things like insulin to have such huge costs as well and the science behind making it is long beyond patent life expiration.
There is a common misconception about vaccines that they PREVENT disease. That is not completely true across the board. In most cases, the goal of a vaccine is to PREVENT you from DYING from said disease. The vaccine primes your body to recognize an antigen (foreign substance) by creating circulating antibodies to activate your immune system when antibodies bind to the foreign invader.
Vaccines are not like cars that can be modulated willy nilly and tossed out into the public. Major changes to vaccines will required Ph1 - Ph3 trials which are expensive and costly. So if you are waiting for the vaccine to get "tweaked" well, you'll be waiting for a new design which will undergo new trials which will have no more experience when it gets approved by the FDA.
Lastly, for those that aren't interested in the vaccine. Have you ever been on a ventilator? I've been on one twice for cardiac surgeries. They aren't much fun. What's worse than having a tube down your throat preventing you from speaking and causing irritation when they bring you out of the coma (for me it was just sedation from surgery) is the eventual removal of the catheter. Oh yes, realize they put you in a coma when you get intubated to prevent you from ripping the tube out and taking your vocal cords out with it and give your body time to heal and shut down other major functions (digestive, urinary, etc.). So in order to keep your systems running they insert a catheter to drain your urine. Now over time, you can develop adhesions to the tubing especially for the durations that you could be looking at with COVID. The result is that should you be lucky enough to survive and get unintubaned, they'll pull the catheter out....slowly, very slowly to assure that any adhesions don't rip out your ureter with it.
Just a few things to think on. Stay safe out there.
This is the same thing that happens when you get Covid, but I'm willing to bet good money, you'll get more complete, and specific immune response by catching Covid, than you will by getting these vaccines.
Hell, I'm willing to bet my life on it ;^)
Do you have study data to support that? I've seen it supposed that the antibody response from the vaccine may last longer than getting the disease based on the rate of decline they have measured in people who had the disease. And you don't have to risk the disease to get that immunity.
One thing a lot of folks seem to overlook is that the disease we know today may not be the one we are faced with in the future. Look at the South African, UK, or Brazilian variants as mutations that have occurred over time and which have made the disease more more transmissable. One of the big benefits to acheiving herd immunity sooner than later is it reduces the disease's ability to mutate into something that is possibly more transmissable, virulent, or difficult to treat.
Never took a daily drug except antibiotics prescribed by idiot physicians who were lining their pockets with cash while all I had was acute bronchitis (viral).
Won't submit to the Chicom Flu indoctrination inoculation.
Ahhh, since we have the vaccine, NOW you are advocating "herd immunity"... funny how the leftist narrative has changed, lol !
So...by your logic, we should have ditched all the "Shelter in Place" mandates a year ago (for the healthy population)...and we wouldn't be in this boat right now. Sounds reasonable to me, for a disease with a 99 percent survival rate.
Right from the start the experts said that herd immunity through a vaccine was the way out of this. Absolutely nothing has changed.
So you actually KNOW that everyone who takes the Chicom Flu indoctrination inoculation are going to survive and they won't have ANY long-term side effects? Please explain, NoWiser, what model of crystal ball you're using. Can we order it from Amazon?
Oh wait.... its 'Oldsite'
But the sheeple will sleep better, so there's that.
Just spit my beer up!!!! Lmao
Can you pharmaceutical folks also tell me what the vaccine means to those of us who have had the virus? Is it necessary? Will it do anything that our body hasn’t already done on it’s own from beating the bug? If one of the answers is “You only had one strain so aren’t necessarily immune to others” then I’d also ask if the instavac is protecting people from multiple strains?
Yeah...except, those diseases weren't manufactured in a Wuhan BioLab. It's a little trickier, to make a vaccine that actually works...under these conditions. Time will tell...
I am amazed how many people disregard the unknown long term effects from this unapproved vaccine. I know 2 people that were hospitalized within 48 hours of receiving the second dose of phizer. I watched my wife’s reaction after the second dose of phizer...... no thanks. I pray I don’t get covid, but if I do I feel pretty good about the 98.7% chance I will make it.
The only rude people in this are you chicken littles wanting everyone to be forced to do something against their will due to your fear. Those of us who don't submit to your will are just fighting back. The harder you push, the harder we'll push back.
And since the less than 1% *possible* gain in survivability is so valuable to you, and you get the vaccine, and you are protected, why the hell do you care if I get it and die? You've ostensibly covered your ass so what I do shouldn't matter at all.
Sorry about your friend's family. Death is heartbreaking. When it is a young person it is tragic. A friend of mine's wife just died at 43 from a disease unrelated to the Chicom flu. Like MANY sick people in the last year, she had experienced a reduction in her medical services and care due to the insane, tyrannical rules that have been shoved down our throats.
Basically no side effects.
I would encourage everyone to get it. Millions of doses have been given and the safety profile is about as good as could be expected - you could give a million people a shot of water in their arm and someone's gonna croak from it.
And just death rates are not all that should be looked at - millions of people who get it and survive are having major organ damage to their lungs, hearts, livers, kidneys, and brains.
You do realize that vaccination is a means of attaining herd immunity? Who am I kidding, of course you don't - because you don't seem to understand much of anything as it pertains to this whole situation.
elkmtngear's Link
Not sure if any other vaccines have ever had those kind of numbers. Food for thought...
I also just read tonight on MSM that the CDC said that children who had the flu shot and got the virus had lessened effects than those that did not. Found that interesting.
I had it last month and it wasn’t too rough for me. I won’t be getting the shot.
As pointed out correlation and causation aren’t the same thing but statistics are hard to grasp. It’s humorous to read people stating they won’t tell people to not get the shot, then continue on by ridiculing those who choose to do so lol.
The data is inaccurate and cooked. Take a look........
Of the ~13MM who had received the vaccine as of Feb. 1, the 271 deaths represents 0.0021%. It is telling that many of you will risk the ~1.5% death rate to avoid the 0.0021% rate that, at a maximum, could currently be attributed to the vaccine. The consistency of logic is impressive.
We also need to keep in mind that the first to be vaccinated were the elderly who are the most susceptible to both - and also the closest age class to death from other causes. It may even be that the 0.0021% doesn't differ that much from the expected death rate for that age group?
Matt's Link
It hasn't been determined through clinical trial as to the degree of protection against being infected conferred by the vaccine. That doesn't mean there isn't a reduction, just that it hasn't been studied. Don't confuse that with meaning there is no benefit.
There is a small sample from Israel (way ahead of most of the world in vaccination, not peer reviewed) that show significant benefit in reducing infections:
"Maccabi Health Services, one of Israel’s four health maintenance organizations (HMOs), tracked 163,000 Israelis who had received both of the two required doses of the Pfizer vaccine; only 31 of those people tested positive for Covid-19, compared to an unvaccinated sample in which about 6,500 did."
The Pfizer vaccine is one of 2 currently available in the US.
And that is how.
You can’t claim Covid deaths are overinflated while at the same time believing post vaccination deaths are 100% caused by vaccination.
I believe everyone should have the right to choose whether to get the vaccine or not. I just grow tired of people who don’t have a background in medicine or statistics preaching to others and ridiculing them on a topic they aren’t even well versed to understand. Get the vaccine or don’t, I support that decision. I just have a hard time reading the non stop justification of these decisions. I’ve had covid, I’m not worried about getting it again. I’m not naive enough to claim that others shouldn’t be worried though. I’m going to get the shot as well. Cynically I think society is heading a direction that it’ll be challenging to travel without it, and the safety data doesn’t have me worried one bit about the vaccine.
This is the misinformation that’s so hard to stomach, it’s no different than how the media handled the past year of what was a riot vs a protest.
Matt's Link
Congratulations for proving all you know about COVID was learned on Facebook.
Very likely air travel will require the vaccine. Our new Sec. of Transportation is exploring it at the moment. There will be people who wonder what risk an unvaccinated passenger with a mask on would pose to a plane-load of passengers who are vaccinated.
It’s interesting to me that people with loads of data to support the “facts” talk about facts that contradict each other.
I don’t really need a list of data. I’ve been around the sun 56 times and I have pretty good instincts. Instincts are a fact. They ate what keeps game animals alive and also what enables me to sniff them out and kill a few each year.
So I’m with drycreek.... I had it the week of Christmas. So I’m feeling confident that I am safe for several months. And I believe there will be a new and greatly improved version next year. And I don’t want to take two versions of it.
And I also don’t believe they let the bat out of the bag by accident. Ozzy Osbourne chewed on an un refrigerated bat and he’s fine. The speech impediment is from ingesting other items. Mostly organic too.
I too believe that some of the things we can and can't do will possibly be affected by whether we have been vaccinated. Air travel, cross-border travel, types of employment, health insurance, admission to certain institutions....all may be linked to proof of vaccination.
I haven't yet received the vaccine. I feel younger every day as I keep being told, "You're not old enough, so stop asking." I may qualify eventually by having birthdays faster than they ship and administer vaccine.
Get the vaccine or don’t, I support that decision. I just have a hard time reading the non stop shaming of those that don't get it and the canceling of dissenting voices.
See how that works TEmbry? When those, whose voices are being drowned out and canceled by DC, state govt, big tech, the media, entertainers, sports figures, etc., are pushed, we will push back harder. In any way we can. I'm sorry that allowing other people to fight their own battles 'tires you'. It must be quite the burden.
It’s all argument to support their ideas. And, that’s cool. One thing that isn’t cool is how sone ideas require forcing others to conform. Or, be considered ignorant or not caring.
I got news for those folk too. I had cancer. My immune system will forever be compromised. I had Covid too. I didn’t end up on a ventilator. Or, even get sick. Just head congestion. I’m not abnormal in that. Statistics say it. That’s the norm. So, this isn’t a pandemic at this point. Not even close.
However, The rhetoric spread by some would have you believe that we are all going to die from this. I got news for you. We are all going to die. Your day and cause has already been established. So, if you feel the need to get the vaccine. Get it with everyone’s support. But, you should allow those that disagree the same in return. Without all the dramatized crap.
I can't think of a good reason for me to get it. From what I'm hearing, its no guarantee you still can't carry and spread the virus. Also protection from the new strains apparently is minimal? I feel like I have pretty low risk from serious illness so why would I? If someone could explain to me in a calm reasonable manner why it is a good idea I would be inclined to listen. But yelling at me and telling me I just want people to die isn't going to get it done.
Read an NPR article the other day that said the pandemic was 10 times worse than we think, because the actual infection rate is 10 times higher than testing shows. Meaning tons of asymptomatic people who never got tested.
Wouldn't that actually be good news? 10 times less likely to cause death or serious illness?
This whole thing is a mess.
X1000!!!!!! And "mess" is being kind!
What I will have a problem with is limiting people and their travel or career because they don’t have the “vaccine”. I don’t agree with that at all. Then it’s not really a personal choice - but that seems to be the direction of the left these days - do it our way or we will ostracize and persecute you.
If the vaccine minimizes the effect of Covid - why should you care whether or not I got “vaccinated”.
If everything is as we are being told, a person deciding to not get the vaccine posses zero threat to those who do get it. That’s not enough though. It can’t be left at that. You gotta do it because it makes people feel better.
I like many here have looked death truly in the face. Down the barrel of a gun, with health, and with stupid things I’ve done but was spared. We’ve all faced it whether we know we have or not. And, should be grateful the Good Lord protected us from obvious death. As we grow older we recognize these happenings. Yet, never consider everyday things we do and the risks involved. We just assume the sun is going to rise everyday until we are tired and want no more. It isn’t going to work that way for almost everyone of us.
Yet, I see that mentality in people who insist the vaccine is the only way. My only question is where is your faith? Where is your brain? Data is telling us that mask aren’t helping. The s ientists ate telling us the vaccine isn’t going to help a lot of people. Yet, we all gotta do it.
I’m tired of being told what to do by people who could care less about me. Who act as if they are smarter then me. And, who insinuate love and compassion is their driving force behind their feelings. That’s a lie. It has to be if real world results mean anything.
I am so happy for those that want a shot, now have the ability to get one. I’m grateful for the hard work put into the whole effort. I’m just not going to put one in my body as things are now. I survived the first or second bout with ease. Might not the next. Time will tell.
Gods been good to me. And, in our talks, I’m not being urged to get it. So, no man or government is going to change that.
I'm not a big conspiracy theorist and trust the science behind it so I got it. I get that people are worried about it and would want to wait, but I had an opportunity to get mine so I did It will be a condition of employment at my hospital in the near future.
Similarity back in August our governor of NM said I had to quarantine if I left the state and came back. Well I admit I left and scouted for elk, came home for a couple days to gather all my hunting stuff and left again.
On a side note have you heard the latest? Fauci says we must wear 3 masks and a face shield for at least another year before we achieve herd immunity. I bet he owns a company selling masks.......
Matt's Link
Just read some threads here. There were numerous people pro-vaccine that weren’t of the “live and let live” attitude you say 95% of them portray. It’s more like this - “You’re either part of the problem or the solution and If you don’t get vaccinated, you are part of the problem.” Doesn’t sound like they don’t care what I do. Sounds like they’ve very much got an opinion and aren’t afraid to ostracize those who don’t think like they do.
I as all of my immediate family had it around Christmas and I was pretty sick for 6 days where I was pretty much bed ridden and sicker than any flu I’ve ever had.
I am going to get the vaccine as soon as possible.
I would recommend that you keep the cardboard vaccination card they provide and laminate it for the upcoming time that it will be required to get on aircraft or should your employer mandate it. It’s coming as soon as there is sufficient portions of the country provided access to the vaccine.
Feels pretty stupid having to wear a cloth mask which doesn’t protect when I recently had this and cannot get it or give it to anyone.
Weird times we are in.
The guy must truly have magic powers! :^D
But...Science !
Not at all relevant to the current vaccine or scenario other than both are vaccines and both are relatively low risk choices to potentially protect yourself and others.
I don’t know if I have a live and let live mentality about getting the vaccine, but I certainly don’t about the continual onslaught of misinformation. Usually from the same crowd furious with MSM about their handling of misinformation for the past few years.
Interesting, the vials are supposed to have 5 full doses, but most of the vials have 6 full doses, so they end up having some extra is the way I've understood it. But they have to use it quick once they've opened that vial
(For a fun comparison, 5 of the 14 _counties_ in MA have higher populations than the entire state of Wyoming.)
If I lived in a more sparsely populated area, maybe I wouldn't be so motivated.
But...Science !'
So now you are correlating the decline following the 1/8/21 peak with Biden's inauguration and not the predicted decline following the increase in cases from Christmas and New Years (and after seeing a similar, precipitous increase and similar decline after Thanksgiving)?
Do you? Which ingredient has you concerned? What is your specific basis for that concern? Why do you have such concerns when the vast majority of the medically trained don't? And what is it that you know the FDA doesn't?
Or is this just another attempt to reinforce an uninformed opinion?
Mule Power's Link
So I feel semi safe for now. I agree that in a year, or by the end of this year there will be a new and greatly improved vaccine. Maybe much sooner actually. So in my situation I think it’s ok to wait. I’m last on the list anyway and to my understanding I can’t get the vaccine for 90 days after testing positive.
I’m actually glad I had it because I intended to wait. We know so little about the virus or the vaccine. Obviously we know nothing about the long term affects of either. This article would suggest that people getting the vaccine right now will be back in line before too long. Quite possibly the back of the line.
Patience is always a good thing. Why run down the hill and jump on one of those cows when you can walk down there and have all of them said the wise old bull. I lost a very good friend this past year. I have another in the hospital on oxygen right now. So I definitely take it seriously. But I also take seriously putting things into my body. I take very little drugs whether prescription or otc. None long term.
Some people have a pill box so they can prefill each section with 10 pills a day. Some are obviously necessary but many are not. To each his own but that’s not my cup of tea.
I also try to think of things differently. Just like bowhunting from the 1950's-1960's to present day, technology advances have come a long way and we have that many more years of knowledge (and scientific study with viruses and how vaccines work). So knowledge of how viruses work and how vaccines are developed have come a long way and is likely a major factor that a vaccine was developed faster and to some point approved faster.
But having or not having it will trigger other things: - Can you travel? Will other countries let you in? Will our country let you back in? - will events/places require it? Also will it simply make your life easier if you have it now? WY has now said if you have the shots and long enough for them to be fully functional (it's not instant), then there's no reason to wear a mask in public. Hell even CDC is saying that, but they are asking you to consider wearing one to support those who still have to (sorry, not my problem).
There's a few place, IMO, you should NOT use for info on this: - media - internet, including youtube Go to the CDC site, find someone in this field. Pick their brain, talk to your doctor. Yes there are unknowns, there always are. For my wife and I, we will get it when we can. Our son is a viral biologist and does testing including on mRNA things. He understands it (though i can't even understand his explanations), he said "Mom, Dad, just get the shots). If I can't trust my son who is educated and does this for a living, why would I trust some random internet or media person?
If you do your research, including what restrictions you may or may not have based on your vaccination status, make your decision. That's your right.
So. If you want to to know how "old" the technology is, one could very reasonably make the case that it's 15-17 years old - which is why, once research had the virus's structural make up, they could rather quickly create the part (spike protein) they wanted to use to fight this, and go to phase 1 trials.
Now, if that general history of mRNA vaccine strategies for coronavirus's feels like it doesnt apply because this one is like 8 months old or what not.
Consider that it was used on tends of thousands in testing and went very well... And has now been used in millions. One interesting point is that as the total numbers have gone up, one area people were concerned about (anaphylaxis) has actually been found to be occurring at a slightly lower rate than the clinical trials found.
So, while the Warp Speed process smoothed out the process and allowed a more rapid succession between trial phases, it didnt reduce oversight for safety/efficacy. It was a solid get vax's developed process - and it build on around a decade and a half of mRNA vaccine research focused on very similar virus's.
Others have noted this, but if "long term effects" of the vax create fear, you should discuss the actual long term side effects of even modest SARS-CoV2-2019 infection with medical providers dealing with it every day. To describe the long term risk of COVID19 as massively worse than anything the vax has even created the slightest sniff of at this point would be an understatement.
The hardest thing is that for many the illness is not a super big deal, and it's easy to see or hear a few stories like that or experience it ourselves and then assume that's reality. In reality, that thinking pattern is a logical fallacy. It's a significant illness for a LOT of folks.
I sure as hell am not an anti-vaxxer. Kids all had their shots. But I did work with pharma in new drugs and their delivery systems and and what is required to move from each stage of clinicals to ultimate use. That hasn’t happened with these vaccines.
I'm not anti-vax. I'm anti-Chicom Flu Indoctrination Inoculation (for myself) due to: the incredibly high survival rate, the FACT that "knowledge" about the Chicom Flu changes frequently as shared by the "experts", the medical community being divided on treatment AND the dissenting voices being silenced by the powerbrokers, the powerbrokers being unified in telling us what to do and finally a complete distrust of the powerbrokers and their motives.
Half of the posters to this thread are fully accepting of being told what to do by a laundry list of entities that have proven they want you to have fewer rights, liberties and freedoms. I'm not nearly as willing as most "...to give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety..." and have little respect for those trying to force me into that mindset.
Best response yet Landshark Launcher. :o)
balance that against the vaccine. - Does it "cure" C19? Not always, but 95+% effective - Effective can range from "less severe" to "don't get it" - Long term effects? Unknown - Is it safe? Yes, at least as safe as other vaccines
Wonder of the USA, you get to pick which scenario you want.
Matt
Bob - increasingly not the case.
I actually didn't give two sh!ts about the warp speed program for a vaccine that will save a miniscule amount of people, relatively speaking. If we all cared about health so much, there would be a complete ban on ALL smoking, ALL alcohol, ALL processed foods with sugar, ALL vehicular traffic over (XX?) MPH, ALL face-to-face gatherings without FULL PPE.
This is one minor issue compared to the hundreds of thousands of deaths that occur from preventable causes on an annual basis - if we only asked Big Brother to control our behavior just a little more, and a little bit more, and a little bit more, etc.
Thankfully, I don't see anyone here on this thread doing that.
If a person chooses not to get the vaccine, then becomes infected and infects someone else that results in the death of that 2nd person.....is that 1st person who intentionally refused to get the vaccine have any legal culpability in the death of the 2nd person?
NO. Not even in leftist America.
This is not a pandemic in anyway unless you make it out to be one by speculation. But, we have to consider reality as we know it now. And, that doesn’t involve sacrifices to make other feel better by force. If this things grows to that, we can all have a civilized talk about it then. But, we ain’t even close to that.
It keeps getting said to follow the science. Well, that’s the science of it. A survival rate so high we have to speculate on the true numbers because so many people have had it and didn’t even know to test for it. That’s not a pandemic. Yet, we keep getting told to follow the science. Well, that’s what I’m doing. Speculation isn’t proven.
Anyways, I really never thought I’d see the day where it was considered that people might be Liable for failing to to take a shot for something that is currently so non lethal. Yeah boy, hire a lawyer and try to push that through civil court. See how that goes for you. I’m betting the Corona virus will become your last worry at that point.
Don't be so sure. Florida has it included in their STI or STD laws. Don't EVER put anything past a liberal. They'll jail their own mother if it fit the narrative.
There are already circumstances (laws) where vaccinations can be mandatory. Kids going to school is one example.
Matt's Link
It would not surprise me at all to learn that the vaccine is nothing but sugar water.
I believe none of what I hear and half of what I see.
Please do not trust social media stuff for information - I realize that's odd as I type it into a social media platform. Seriously though, the level of pseudoscience sometimes dropped out there is astonishing.
I have met employees of clients who later died of COVID-19. I have also met those who were quite ill and others who had the meh... nothing burger reaction. This is real but the individual response is quite variable. I wish I could get the shot but the govt. doesn't have me on the preference list even though I was an essential worker early on with a primary focus of providing health and safety or industrial hygiene consulting.
That said, the COVID-19 vaccine which is mRNA based not DNA based is new but the building blocks for it started with other SARS outbreaks. No you can't get COIVD-19 from the vaccine, its not alive, never been alive just a key for you body to know when COVID-19 comes a calling. (e.g. Knock Knock, Who's there?, COVID-19, Sorry we gave at the office... those two big white corpuscles behind you can help you off the property).
I sat in on a webinar hosted by Los Alamos lab about a month ago with a lot of other safety professionals. An interesting presentation that even in that environment there are still COVID-19 deniers and highly technical people who don't get it. One of the things mentioned was in the trials of the vaccine out of the thousands upon thousands of test subjects only 1 (one) uno, einse, ichi, I, ONE person caught COVID-19 that required any level of critical care. Thats right only ONE out of thousands upon thousands vaccinated was unprotected. Go enough for me I will get the shots.
Too funny indeed. The grand irony here is that the loss of liberty and freedom due to COVID restrictions is what many guys were bitching about at the onset of the pandemic. Now that there is a tool to reverse those losses, they are bitching about it for the same reason.
Do you have a time machine hidden in the shed?
I decided to lead with that rather than the "if my aunt had balls,..." line.
ND String Puller's Link
I mentioned 'population density' earlier. It's not coincidence that the most densely populated areas have the highest rates of infection, but people will STILL ride public transportation and gather too closely.
I used the example of Wyoming vs. 'Worcester County, Massachusetts' which is extreme, but it illustrates how unevenly population is distributed across the country. (Wyoming has 3/4 of the people of WCMa but 62 times the area.)
I think we can agree that methods that are helpful in one place don't make sense everywhere. (And I'll deal with the situation *here* tyvm.)
And that isn’t internet misinformation folks.....
It's 'anecdotal'. In statistical speak, it's ONE data point. Without the particulars of the case it would be useless to draw conclusions from it. As so many have pointed out above, getting the shots does not give you 'instant Teflon' protection from catching the virus. I'm getting the shots and then I'm still gonna avoid the heck out of crowds for another two months.
So my philosophy is to go on with my Life. Wife & I are heading to Florida for a couple of weeks to do some Fishing, enjoy the warm sunshine, & partake of the Floridian hospitality.
His point is he had the virus. It was for him like it was/has been for roughly 90% of the people who has had it. Very mild. His point is he also knows the virus is deadly for such a small portion, way less then 1% of the people who get it, that he doesn’t prioritize getting the vaccine. He isn’t knocking you for getting it. And, he’s trying to point out that there are many unknowns. And, That the effectiveness isn’t known.
Basically, he is saying everything being stated by the same science you fellas are picking and choosing your points to further your position. The difference is, he isn’t picking and choosing his truths. He taking everything for face value and developing an approach he’s comfortable with.
That’s something not shared by a bunch on this thread. So, if it’s not you, don’t get defensive. If it is you, It’s like you can’t grasp someone not seeing it the same way. Even though there is enough SCIENCE available to suggest it’s a warrantied approach.
That’s what I read from him and everyone else sharing his position. It’s not based on fear, conspiracy theory, or anything other then results. So, Saying differently doesn’t make it so.
So......what you're saying is we need to wait several years until long term clinicals and trials are in place? Because right now, there are NONE. We have a flu that we have known about for a year, a vaccine, substantially less than that. Mike in Ct (and he works in the field) had mentioned that he didn't think a vaccine would be available for ~2 years and that would be fast tracked. Again, there are no long term studies that show either the effectiveness nor the side effects. THAT is my issue. Period. There is NO long term information to make an informed opinion. And just because the government says this fast tracked vaccine is OK, doesn't make it so. In the not so distant past this is the same government that conducted STD studies on blacks, and LSD studies by the CIA with an untold number of deaths and destroyed lives.
How many of you when your favorite truck brand releases a brand spanking new generation, new engine, transmission, electronics, etc, say I'm gonna wait a few years till all the bugs get worked out before I drop some $$. But a new vaccine, relativley untested, lined up to get it and mock those that question the validity of how it was rushed thru.
FTR, my kids have had all their shots, my grandkids, I get tetnaus boosters when required. I don't get the flu shot. It typically is a crap shoot as to which flu hits (apparently all other flu strains are extinct) and it's typically only 40-50% effective. Plus the last two times my wife got it, she was hammered hard, laid up two weeks, with the flu. Vaccines fault? Her own body's reaction? Just a freak occurence? Who knows... Not opposed to the standard flu vaccine, just not getting it. And apparently there have been no cases or deaths attributed to the "old" flu.
The problem is that the lockdowns really did nothing to slow the virus.
A 25 MPH national speed limit would save lives.
Remember when closing for 15 days was an unprecedented move?
Matt
So my philosophy is to go on with my Life. Wife & I are heading to Florida for a couple of weeks to do some Fishing, enjoy the warm sunshine, & partake of the Floridian hospitality.
My biggest regret is I passed on a Franchi instinct, 3 CZ woodcocks, and 3 CZ ring necks. I should have brought one of them suckers home
The ONLY thing that matters is whether or not an individual, American Citizen, wants to get the vaccine or not. My agreement with your reasons isn't necessary. Your agreement for my reasons isn't necessary. If you don't advocate for my choice to be invalid, we're good. If you do, you'll be high on the list when the fecal matter hits the oscillating device - you have proven that you do not care about individual rights, freedoms and liberties as much as you care about your safety and compliance with Big Brother.
Bake - your meme is insensitive and demeaning to those for whom truth and common sense is a trigger. Shame!
I would love to hear Mike's thoughts as well.
I think that depends, again, on where you are, population density etc. In 'thin' areas it probably doesn't matter. If it had been pushed *harder* *sooner* in densely populated areas, who knows? It seems to be helping in other countries, although I haven't really studied it hard. (They do seem to *enforce* it harder.)
Dirty Mike- whole different ball game with virus vaccines. Viruses mutate, hence the high fail rate.
One thing is for sure, we can’t win against this Covid. We can beat the flu bug though.
Craig
Matt
The vaccines are created and start to be distributed. Within a week he is telling us we have to be worried about variants, but we always knew there would be variants. I remember him talking about it on TV. It is natural for virus to mutate as it goes through the population. Sometimes the variants may spread easier, but the mutated variants generally cause less severe illness. He also no longer speaks of the people that have had covid when talking about herd immunity. Every time I here him on TV now it is based off up to 90 percent of the population getting the vaccine(the number varies between 75-90), nothing about everyone that has caught covid.
A month or two back he said kids should be in school, teachers don't need to be vaccinated. That should be the "default posistion". The last week or so when I see him on TV he says its a very complicated subject and he doesn't have all the data yet.
A news anchor asked him if now that her parents got vaccinated, can they come visit the grandchildren. He said no that wouldn't be a good Idea. Also just because you got vaccinated, it doesn't mean you can start going out to restaurants and theaters.
In that same interview he mentioned he believed around July everyone that wanted the vaccine would be able to get it. In the end of the interview she asked when life could be normal again. He just kind of laughed. He said he still thought social distancing and masked would be required in 2022. If everyone that wants the vaccine got it why would we be wearing masks and social distancing still?
I was reading the information about vaccines on the CDC website, and this is all baffling to me. What I read there seems to contradict what he has been saying lately about how to live your life after being vaccinated. We need to get the vaccine so we don't get sick and spread the virus, but if you get the vaccine you can still get sick and spread the virus.
My wife is in health care so she got both vaccine shots over the last month. She just got sick for one day after the second shot. I'm all for getting it as soon as I can. Im not in a high risk group but have family that is. I would love for them and me to get it so we aren't worried about seeing each other.
Sorry for the long post, just really baffled after the TV interviews he has done the last week or two. Seem's as though he is saying that being vaccinated doesn't mean your life is normal again. You still have to mask up and socially distance. You can still catch virus and spread virus. If we were all vaccinated we could all still catch and spread virus then correct?
I'm not trying to stir the pot. I know there are several people with medical backgrounds that post on here. Just wondering if any of this makes sense. What he is saying on TV doesn't even seem to jive with the CDC website info about how vaccinations work.
Hackbow's Link
I feel 85% back to normal this Saturday morning. Least this creates concern over some people, I should disclose that I'm immune compromised (which lead me to the decision to take the vaccine in the first place) Maybe that lead to the reaction I had. I'm just glad I didn't get 'real' Covid.
We live in a very rural setting and there were many unfilled appointments at the sessions offered. I don’t think where we live that even 50% will get vaccinated for one personal reason or another. I’m sure our area is a bit of an anomaly though.
My wife tested positive 3 days ago, she was down for a week. Slept 20 hours a day. I can't believe I didn't get it from her, she is getting back to normal now, thank goodness. Dishes were starting to pile up....
Getting the vaccine amplifies the immune response for those who have recoved from the virus and may provide more durable protection. Moreover, the purpose of the vaccine is to keep people from getting a severe form of the disease or dying from it, not to keep them from getting it per se (although it seems to do that as well).
If you are doing some research on this, you might also look up the medical definition of "experimental" to avoid misusing it in the future.
Buffalo1's Link
:-)
The answers are out there if you take the opportunity to look for them.
Given all else you apparently don't know, are you aware that Trump got the vaccine in january - even though he already had COVID?Care to guess why that was?
Antibodies....presumably at this point. I didn't get vaccinated for social benefit, or to clear a hurdle. I didn't get vaccinated so I can feel 'free' or ditch the mask. I got vaccinated simply to improve my odds of not sustaining a viral infection which just might threaten my overall health or even life. They don't give you a better warranty on life when you get the vaccine. You hope it works...think of a parachute.
My family and I come from backgrounds of education and employment in various medical sciences. We have strong beliefs in medical science and the advancements witnessed in the last several decades. I'm not advocating for that over anyone else's beliefs....just pointing out why I/we are all getting vaccinated. I personally have fairly significant risk factors. No spleen. History of severe respiratory infections. Pneumonia risk is elevated. I weigh 364 pounds.... ;-)
Sure, I could get some antibodies by getting the virus and surviving it. Very good chance that's what would've happened. I just prefer to (try to) keep the virus from storming the beach and finding it undefended. I personally prefer the option of the vaccine to hopefully head off a full-on viral invasion of my body. For the record, I think EVERYONE has the right to decide what's best for themselves. I don't judge people as right or wrong for deciding how to address the option of getting vaccinated.
I would take the shot and 11 days of hunting somewhere instead of being sick.
It's going to be interesting if some people develop side effects and then find out they have NO recourse. Litigation will not be an option. If the " vaccine " is completely legit and safe, why did the Feds give the biotech companies that golden insurance umbrella??
Perhaps we need to move this line of thinking farther into society, bet rid of all the trial lawyers...Roundup claims will be the first to go. Mesothelioma?
People will say some folks aren’t wearing them. And blame those folks for the explosion of cases the last two months of the year. But, it begs to be answered why those who wore masks still got the Covid? I’d like to hear someone weigh in on it with a sincere attempt to suggest why besides my opinion.
I can’t testify to other places other then where I’ve been. But, it’s been “law” since the second week in November in mid Atlantic states. No gas, no grocery store, no commerce at all if you didn’t have a mask on. Yet, it exploded until cresting last month.
Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, etc.... will be blamed. Yet, all other viruses have decreased dramatically. Hmmm?
It’s a virus. Vaccine aside, unless you are immune to it, you are going to get it. One way or the other. Mask, no mask, etc... Unless you choose to lock away and never come out unless it dies out, or you get the vaccine, you are likely going to get it.
You can’t forget what the numbers say. 80% of those that get it, don’t even know they have it. By bowsite testimony, The vaccination seems to be causing more noticeable results for the vast majority then the virus does. Yet, we still have people calling others idiots for not getting inline for the shot. SMH.
Anyways, masks works so good, Faucci has even stated wearing two or three at the same time is better. That’s how good they work. Awesome.
Once again, sarcasm aside, I’m happy for those who have wanted one and gotten a vaccination. I hope those that haven’t, get theirs soon. And, I’ll drop out until another poster insinuates anything but his way of thinking is stupid.
Take care and God Bless men.
:)
Just messin with you WV.
Willie, I agree. Except on Covid matters. :^)
Kind of makes you wonder why the Folks who work at Pfizer feel it's safe enough for them to get the vaccine.
A couple of thoughts here, 95 and 94 % effective at preventing the virus is substantial. keep in mind this is a quick turn around, but remember they aren't inventing the wheel with this vaccine.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Pfizer Inc PFE.N on Tuesday said it has reached a $486 million settlement of litigation accusing it of causing big losses for shareholders by concealing safety risks associated with its Celebrex and Bextra pain-relieving drugs.
" Believe the science" well I'm a huge believer, but on the occasion I've been around a TV, I've noticed countless commercials from law firms, regarding pharmaceuticals. What was a " scientific breakthrough " last year, is a class action suit this year... the owner of my old bow shop got on Phen-fen( sp?) to loose weight, in the 90's. Worked awesome, until it almost killed him. Use some discretion, hat's all I'm saying. Unintended consequences abound.
An FDA-approved drug being used for its stated indication is by definition not experimental.
KSflatlander's Link
The social family gatherings over the holidays contributed to the spike in covid likely because people used precautionary measures like masks, hand washing, distancing, and other risk reduction measures (air filtration on planes) to REDUCE risk while traveling. They likely let their guard down while they were hanging out at grandma’s for a few days. Lastly, did you ever stop to think the “flu” may not be as contagious or maybe has a shorter self life outside the body than Covid? There are many many scientific reasons why the flu reduction was greater than Covid. SMH.
I think some confuse belief and anecdotal observations with scientific facts. From their perspective, the universe is revolving around them in WV. Because they see the stars, sun, and moon move across the sky they...themselves must be standing still. However, their observations do not supersede scientific fact SMH.
I'm hopeful it's safe and works, but my confidence in bureaucracies and deep state corporate cronyism, is not at the level of others, it seems.
This whole thing just reminds me of Ms Pelosi's passing of the ObamaCare act. " We need to pass the bill to see WHAT's IN the bill".....doesn't pass my smell test, but I've been wrong before.
I was done with this thread but I got triggered, sorry.
bb (I think it was) above noted the challenge of covering a massive conspiracy up. There is literally a math based tool to estimate that, which works on the number of people involved. This is literally a tool that was researched and validated! (Grimes Model) The more people involved, the less time until "the truth" comes out. So, if you are worried that there is a massive conspiracy behind these VACCINES, no worries, given the thousands of people involved in their production and testing to this point, coupled with about 15-20 years in the pipeline (originally for the original SARS and MERS virus's as well as to deliver various cancer treatment agents) the grand conspiracy would be outed. It's not. Because there isnt one.
Then again, there is also the reality that with millions of people having been given the vaccines, safety has actually been found to be BETTER than what the already very safe clinical trial data looked like from last year... So, if a clinical trial with 20-40,000 participants didnt create enough statistical power, the ongoing data collection based evidence should help.
KS, agreed.
Ok, now I'm out, for real.
Eitherway, it’s a pretty common denominator that someone at those gatherings already had Covid. And, it’s a pretty common denominator that mask mandates were prior to this gatherings. Meaning all the masks did nothing to prevent their family from getting it. Whether they wore masks at those gatherings are irrelevant. They were very likely wearing them before those holidays when the infected visited family.
The world doesn’t revolve around WV. That’s my whole point. And, unless internet information is lying, everyone is experiencing a pretty tight mandate. Including masks well before those holidays.
We can go on implying there is a reason masks have yet to stop the spread. Or, we could realize the vaccine is likely the biggest culprit in that affect.
Life is going to continue for blue collar America whether government wants it to or not. As stated before, no one questions the effectiveness of social distancing and good hygiene. And, no one is going to loose possessions to make their silly neighbor feel better because we’ve just give up and stayed home.
If I did not work on the nursing home, I probably would not have gotten the vaccine since I am under 65, in good health, a non-smoker and no respiratory issues.
Until someone can publish provable test results similar to that of a bullet proof vest...I'm still skeptical...
Could be why Fauci is now suggesting 3 or 4 masks at once, trying to reduce the size to say Chicken wire?
FYI- your supposed to wear a mask on your upper orphis. Maybe that’s your problem. You got them confused with your lower orphis. It happens to the best of us.
It’s a reduction of risk...genius. How many would have contracted the virus without mask?
Contemplate that while your mowing yards...I mean conducting forestry science.
Being in Idaho, fish and game was called in help out with administering shots. Reports of people forced to run across a parking lot and getting hit by a dart gun, others lured into a culvert and getting hit with a syringe on a ten foot pole are rampant. No wonder the grizzly bears around here are so trap shy.
When I get there Wed., if I see a helicopter with a canon net on the skid, I'll turn around.
Again, that is simply not true. The clinical trails for vaccine approval were not designed to test for that so some people who do not understand that take it to mean they do not, but data from Israel is demonstrating otherwise. Strongly.
This topic sheds light on why we are where we are as a country. Too many people willing to speak authoritatively about things that are simply not true.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/03/01/dr-scott-gottlieb-says-data-shows-covid-vaccines-reduces-transmission.html
That is like saying speed is never a contributing factor in traffic deaths because we have speed limits.
Matt, it’s only that way if you try to make it that way. We’ve had this discussion before. Covid wasn’t hiding in the turkey. Awaiting its chance to affect those not wearing masks. Somebody had to have it if the families enjoying the holidays are to be blamed for the increase in Covid cases. That’s about as Simple to understand as it gets.
No. Suggesting that masks do not work because there is a mask mandate and that has not stopped the spread of COVID is stupid, as it assumes that people have strictly followed said mask mandate. As much as I dislike the nut s@cks that run around the internet citing logical fallacies as a rebuttal to arguments, that is clear an ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Which is just a fancy Latin description for people who are not clever enough to be able to correctly attribute cause.
There's an old joke about an experiment on a frog. The scientist claps loudly to make the frog jump and then measures the distance. After each jump, the scientist cuts off a leg and the distance of each of the frog's successive jumps decreases. After the scientist cuts off the 4th leg and claps, the frog does not jump. The scientist concludes that cutting off the 4th leg has rendered the frog deaf.
That has been the “law”. Since the first of November. For all mid Atlantic states. You either assume people aren’t following the law or, are setting on enough supplies to prevent having to interact with society in the last 5 months. That’s pretty far fetched.
I’ll also add that Logical fallacies apply to those that regurgitate mindless protocol when results suggest they may not be effective. Or, even work. But, they just keep on saying it. Like it’s fact. Because someone assumed it was the case way back.
And, It sounds like your scientist in the analogy might have the last name of Faucci. If one won’t work, wear two. Or three.
FWIW, if you’d spend an ounce of the time actually listening to people, you might could remember what’s been said about their beliefs concerning masks. Where the blame lies in their ineffectiveness. But, it’s more your style to bounce from thread to thread picking apart posts, inserting witty remarks in contrast of meaning, and smirk from the safety of your computer.
Finally. Nut sack? You had to be looking in the mirror when you typed that.
Your logic is missing a control group. How much would Covid spread without masks? There is peer reviewed data out there if you care to read. But yes, proceed with your Internet samples lmao. Again, your perceived observations supersede medical science. Arrogance defined.
What’s next? Spontaneous generation? No moon landing? Flat earth? Zeno's paradox? Eventually, the next time you target practice the arrow will never reach the target. SMH.
Grey Ghost's Link
But, I know Justin won't read any of them, because he already has all the answers, and he'll gladly share them with you, over and over and over, ad nauseam.
Matt
So who is going to ensure that the Biden-approved mass migration of illegal aliens is all masked up as they invade our Southern border? How about Antifa, BLM rioters...are they also immune as they stampede in to loot BestBuy?
Oh wait, come to think of it, I remember reading an article where Faucci claimed COVID only spreads during joyous occasions.
Back when I was in school, our science books didn't incorporate liberal logic.
This is playing out more like a religion than a pandemic!
Will's Link
Not a panacea, but work. That said, and this is a broad statement NOT reflective of this thread... Just a broad observation... there is a definite love for things that do not work (HCQ, Ivermectin, etc) vs things that do (masks, distance, hygiene, dexamethasone, monoclonal antibodies, VACCINES, etc)
Liberal logic is no different then liberal policy. It has no account for common life. Only paper testimony. But, you got nutsacks running around the internet spreading it as the gospel. That’s the definition of stupid as the nutsack from California pointed out.
Did you bother reading any of the dozens of articles I posted? I didn't think so, because the vast majority of them don't support your preconceived biases.
Matt
Bottom line.... it’s your choice. The seriousness of it means nobody should be judging others for their decision. And the fact is that we don’t have the virus.... viruseS figured out and barely know shit about the vaccine. So speculate all you want we are in uncharted territory. AND we’ll be at a whole other level of the situation with the bug and the vax by the end of summer so calm down.
bowhunt's Link
Taken from the final lines of the study. Doesn't sound like an absolute to me...coughing/sneezing into your elbow also "has the potential" to slow the spread of Covid 19
Quote from the study.
Statistically significant means the model indicates the study is valid. 2% of 500,000 is 10,000 people that may have survived. That’s significant in my book especially if 1 of the 10,000 is someone I care about. That does not account for the additional spread by the infected 2% either. It grows exponentially with subsequent transmissions.
Thanks for the heads up. Interesting study. This study like many others prove masks do reduce the risk of transmission of Covid. Added with social distancing and hygiene the reduction can be much bigger.
With that said, I tired of Covid just like everyone else. Bring on the vaccines so we can open up the country. There is no other long term solution.
I also see a huge "cost" associated with them that many don't. I believe creating the mandates by fiat is an overstep of government power and I believe that people being forced to wear masks is dehumanizing and "significantly" (more than 2%) detracts from our quality if life.
It wasn't long ago that forcing women to cover their face in public was considered outrageous by many.
If you don’t like it then don’t shop there.
Just like he had to lie about what level of the population would need to be vaccinated to reach herd immunity. He had to start out saying 60 percent and work his way up to 90 percent over time. The American people weren't ready to hear 90 percent right out of the gate.
We are so lucky to have someone so high up in our government that knows which "science" we are ready to know.
Imagine what could happen if he just told the truth! :)
No mention of those who have already had the Kung Flu (healthy Immune systems are just a "Conspiracy Theory" these days) ...typical !
Alternate interpretation, "I believe in science" vs "I feel my political beliefs provide me adequate protection against a virus."
Masks work. Mask mandates, not as well because...see the latter above.
If masks help, and I believe they do, they would not work letting everyone decide themselves what they want to do. Because if they do work, its not because the mask you are wearing protects you. Let me repeat that: THE MASK YOU ARE WEARING DOESN'T PROTECT YOU. No one is saying that. The mask you are wearing protects other people if YOU are shedding virus.
It is certainly not scientific, but I have had 5 people in my business come down with Covid, all contracted somewhere else. We employ 30 people and we all wear masks all day and we have had ZERO transmission between coworkers. My niece went to a church get together of 9 women, and they didn't wear masks. No women were showing signs at the time of the get together or for 2 days after that. All 9 women came down with it.
As far as getting the vaccine means you don't have to wear a mask... That is now the recommendation IF you are around other people who have had the vaccine or the disease. Not if you are going out in the general population
Bowbender's Link
"According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), a person who is vaccinated against COVID-19 can still be infected with or “carry” the virus that causes COVID-19 while not feeling sick or having symptoms. Experts call this “asymptomatic infection.”
"Alternate interpretation, "I believe in science" vs "I feel my political beliefs provide me adequate protection against a virus."
Which science? The science that says if you're vaccinated you're good to go with no mask or social distancing or the science that says you're still a carrier and should wear a mask and distance?
From the link: "However, the trials did not measure whether a person who is vaccinated is less likely to spread the virus to someone else."
That's the issue with the accelerated rollout. No long term efficacy studies, No long term clinicals. THAT is my issue with the vaccine. And decisions are being made as though this has undergone the typical 5-10 year study with mutliple groups, long term side effects, actual efficacy of the vaccine. Is it like 90%, or more around 40-50% as with the myriad of other flu vaccines. Add on top contradictory information from the CDC and it's no wonder there is skepticism and distrust.
Massive innoculation sites with ZERO oversight. How can there be? Gonna track via ID? Massive HIPPA violations. Enrolling every Tom, DIck and Mary off the street to administer vaccines? Ya, phuc dat.
I'd like to think it's about health and safety. And not how compliant and easily controlled the masses are when faced with the biggest global crisis man has known, other than climate change.
The CDC within several days has stated both that if you get the vaccine you don't need to distance or wear a mask AND you can still be a carrier and should still where a mask and distance. SMFH..... Must be that "imperfect" science. So which is it, opinion or fact that the CDC issued. Or can I form an educated opinion on contradictory statements from the government entity overseeing this shit-show.
Actually, it seems that we've come "full circle", on much of it.
Examples: Kids don't carry enough of a viral load to be vectors, transmission by surfaces is extremely rare, transmission by asymptomatic patients is extremely rare.
Same stuff they were telling us a Year ago (basically, knowledge acquired from other known Covid type viruses).
Strangely, talking points and "official statements" from the WHO and CDC, seemed to undergo fluctuations over the last Year, based on the Political Climate.
I don’t see the contradiction?
JayZ's Link
I think the lockdowns are total BS. If you compare California with some of the strictest lockdowns to Florida who was relatively open during this whole thing:
Florida: 8.975% of the population has gotten Covid with a death rate of 0.146% California: 9.098% of the population has gotten Covid with a death rate of 0.137%.
Wonder what percentage of people in California had there lives destroyed by the reaction to the virus?
They locked my grandma up to save her from Covid but really ended up killing her. But the media doesn't want to talk about that narrative.
Those comments only seem contradictory because they are either misquoted or actual quotes which have been truncated in a way that changes their meanings.
The CDC stated that people who are fully vaccinated can be maskless and not socially distanced from other vaccinated people or with unvaccinated people who are not high risk.
They then suggest wearing a mask when in public -where the vaccinated could encounter high risk people.
With the context added back in, can you share how you think those statements ate contradictory?
I have a friend who’s dad is dying. He has pneumonia in his right lung, a UTI, an infection in his heart, and an aortic valve that’s leaking. He’s been in the hospital for 8 days. The doctors called his family today and told him that he was going to die. That he was still awake and that they had better come see him while he was.
The man has been married 61 years to the same women, they raised three kids, have 4 grandkids, he’s a Korean vet, and was as tough a human God ever put on this earth. But, he’s basically died alone due to Covid restrictions. And, instead of spending the few days he had left with his loved ones, he’s spent it in a hospital surrounded by strangers. And, yes he is Covid negative.
I keep reading all this BS about saving other people. I set with my wife for 10 days, in the same house, maskless, cooking, cleaning, sleeping with her while I had Covid. She never got it. I know many others just like that.
The point I’m making is the internet is full of people that want to preach the science that Faucci preaches. Yet, make smart guy comments about other people who choose to believe what other professionals are saying. And, what they’ve experienced. As if to imply they are beneath them. They keep posting all the “science”, then make excuses for it when it changes.
It’s just stupid. This virus is going to kill more people. Not one thing I do is going to change that. Wearing a mask isn’t going to stop you from transmitting it unless you are a paraplegic with no arms or hands. Not acknowledging the fact that people infect others by touching that mask, then transmitting it that way, is the most defined example of naive and dumb as you could ever find. But, keep telling everyone about your science. That’ll change things.
I am scheduled for my 2nd dose April 1st which I will do to get my Vaccination proof as I’m flying a lot and traveling across Canada and out of Country it’s going to be easier with my proof of having both had this and been vaccinated.
Matt's Link
People who continue with the notion that people communicate the virus through touching contaminated surfaces is one of "the most defined example of naive and dumb as you could ever find."
From the linked article: "But Goldman, a microbiologist at Rutgers New Jersey Medical School in Newark, decided to take a closer look at the evidence around fomites. What he found was that there was little to support the idea that SARS-CoV-2 passes from one person to another through contaminated surfaces. He wrote a pointed commentary for The Lancet Infectious Diseases in July, arguing that surfaces presented relatively little risk of transmitting the virus2. His conviction has only strengthened since then, and Goldman has long since abandoned the gloves."
Justin, one of these days news from mid-2020 will reach West Virginia. You just need to be patient....
As believers we could ascribe that occurance to answered prayer, however, nobody so scientifically minded would accept our evidence, and that itself is nothing new in this world of blind faith in whatever is today's announced science fad. That's just the way it is and will continue well beyond anyone's patience.
Wait. Masks work so well. That’s what you’ve been saying. Which is it? If masks work so well, the. How is it we’ve had these explosions in cases? Mask mandates have been a very real variable through this all. Maybe they don’t work well? Nah, can’t be. Because you said so.
You can’t argue from both sides. Plus, it’s hard to accept uncommon logic when the science demands logical reasoning concerning the real world results. Unless of course, your whole point is to be contradicting.
If transmission only occurs by inoculation through the eyes and vapor into the mouth, etc.... we got a lot of people touching something that has the virus the touching their eyes. Or, they spend a lot of time in someone’s face who has it.
Keep on being a wise guy. I’ve yet to post anything with as much pertinent information explaining how inept some of this research is. Yet, you hang on it like a gotcha point. SMH.
I am now eligible and on the list in my county, waiting for their notification.
Interestingly, 10 days after donating blood I received notification that they test all donations for SARS/COVID antibodies. My results were negative but they cannot guarantee the accuracy of the test.
I know many believe the lockdowns are about control. I am willing to bet if politicians refused lockdowns they would have been accused of trying to control the population by allowing people to die, Bill Gates would be accused no doubt and Cuomo would be given credit for keeping Social Security solvent.
Justin, I was in Carrollton, MO this weekend. I was in the tiny minority wearing a mask in Orschelan’s even though a sign on the door said facial covering was required. I bet that is not the only place not abiding by the mandate, but hey I don’t want to mess with your logic.
Carry on...
Given essentially zero risk to you, and potentially solid gains to you and the community around you, it's worth it.
I like this one facet approach of the “science only” crowd. It’s impeccable to common sense. SMH
Covid-19 update. I don't understand everyone being so secretive about covid so I'm opening up about my experience. I'm guilty in thinking this was merely an over reaction to a new cold virus. I was one of those skeptics and guys who thought I would not get sick or be asymptomatic. That was until I got Covid-19. It has absolutely whipped my ass! I'm a very active, don't slow down healthy 40 year old guy. I go to gym at least 4 days a week and stay active on the the weekends. This virus has completely humbled me and scared me at times. I've experienced every symptom under the sun and a few that aren't even listed. It's such a yo-yo virus. One day your fine, next day you feel like your dying. It effects everyone different. I've been in close contact with 3 of my closest friends who are also positive (surely contracted from me at hunting camp) and it has just beat them up. There is no real time line on feeling better, there are some lasting effects including heart and lung damage that just scares me. I write this now completely dizzy and exhausted, Its my tenth day since symptoms started.
It's scary how contagious it is. Just my inner circle and families of those I have been with have been so effected by this. Imagine your child cannot go to school, play sports, trick or treat, or see friends or family for 14 days because they are living in a house with positive cases. It's a huge burden on family. I've been in the same house as wife and daughter and I've not seen them for more than 5 minutes in 10 days. Autumn has to wait on me as I cannot leave the room. She is basically a prisoner because I'm sick. The ripple effect is unbelievable. In the time your in quarantine you left thinking about your contact with others. Who you may have infected, your lack of diligence in reducing virus spread and how it has effected the lives of co-workers, friends, family. That's a burden on me, thats something often not mentioned with this virus. It not only effects you but so many others. I'm a new believer in masks, it can slow spread and for that I will advocate for the use of them. I don't wish this on anyone. If there is anything you can do to keep yourself healthy and safe and prevent lasting effects on friends and family I encourage you to do so.
I'm blessed to have an amazing wife to help me through this. So grateful her work is understanding with her absence. Thankful to her coworkers who have to fill in for her. Not everyone has that. I am beyond thankful I work with an amazing crew of guys who pick up my slack and will do anything possible to ensure we continue to serve our customers in the basin. I couldn't imagine what our business would be like without them. It's unbelievable to see them rise up amid so much chaos. I have supportive friends and family who's well wishes and support make it easier. Not everyone is as lucky. I simply ask you be considerate of others. This virus will not be exclusive to you with it's impacts. We have to start thinking more about our community, our friends, and out families.
Justin, the establishment has the right to ask customers to comply, I have the right to go elsewhere if I don’t agree.
Good advice I received since a very young man...don’t go looking for trouble and you probably won’t find any, but if it comes, be ready. I have tried to adhere to that.
A really big burly guy in front of me wearing a red MAGA hat had no mask. He gave me that look of disdain.
I asked the cashier why no one had a mask on, could I take mine off. She replied they could not force people to wear one. I laughed and said I wouldn’t try and force the customer before me to wear one and that he probably thought I was a wimp. She replied she thought real men complied with the restriction, I told her how smart she was;-)
He was a big man, but there were three of us...myself, Smith, and Wesson. LOL.
We are in a pandemic with an airborne pathogen and Justin thinks covering your mouth is dumb. Let that sink in for a little bit. Then has the gall to claim common sense.
CC from way back, when you had to take the classes. Shield 9, never leave home without it, with me even on campus. Believe it or not.
IdyllwildArcher's Link
The solution to this grand mystery is actually pretty simple. 1.) Masks are meant to contain respiratory droplets that the wearer would otherwise expel into the environment which could be inhaled by or contact the mucous membranes of others, and not to protect the wearer from droplets expelled by others. You seem like an observant fellow, so you've no doubt notes that, when a person wears a mask, the mask is closer to their mouth than the mouths of the people standing 6 feet away. This is key, as the mask contains many more droplets expelled by the person wearing it than it is protecting the wearer from droplets expelled by people who are standing 6 feet away - who are presumably also wearing a mask. This is why virologists have determined there is very little risk of spread through touching contaminated surfaces, as the viral load one can be exposed to is generally not enough to result in disease. 2.) Masks only work when worn. As to the conundrum of why we have seen surges in the disease despite mask mandates (or, from your perspective, why masks worked, and then they didn't, and then they did again), it is a simple study in human behaviour. People do not all follow the rules. I would imagine this is especially true of those who don't believe masks work. The fall surge correlated very highly with winter weather which forced people in doors and with the holidays during which many people travelled to see family despite recommendations to the contrary by health experts. Then...masks miraculously started working again once people stopped travelling to see family after the holidays.
Mystery solved.
I've personally never looked at any of these measures (masks, hand-washing, distancing, and the vaccine) as anything more than fractional help...a slice of the pie in each. But put all of them together and used every day, the individual odds of escaping serious disease are improved. That's all. Not guaranteed. I still think people have the right to decide how they feel about this. I really wish our health practices weren't being politicized either way, as it tends to exacerbate misinformation generated to support a political leaning. Again...that unfortunately goes both ways. Most of us just want to be healthy, protect our loved ones, and compromise our lives to the least extent possible.
They prevent cancer as well?
When someone's obvious political ideology does their thinking on health issues, time to quit listening!
In 3...2...1... we get the avalanche of Vit D "cures" covid and this is all a scam to get Biden elected and make money for big pharma and 3M so they can make tons of masks!
Sorry, I try to avoid sarcasm, but I'm getting grumpy in my "old" age...
That's a mouthful. Good advice whether you sport a red hat or wear a Vote Biden mask outside jogging alone.
Pfizer/Moderna vaccines provide 97% protection against hospitalization and death and 94% protection against getting the virus at all.
Translation: We could get rid of this thing if everyone gets vaccinated.
At this point, personally, I consider it an act of patriotism and love of thy neighbor to get the vaccine. It's a shame that political ideology is using patriotism erroneously to cause the inverse and hurt us all.
I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't have a choice, but this country has a history of pulling together and sacrificing for the good of the nation and the good of the world.
We should be leading on this, not following.
And the world won't end in 12 years from global warming if you'd hurry up and trade your gas guzzling truck in for an electric one!!
Got my shot scheduled for March 20. Not sure what flavor I will get but I'm not scared of any of them.
I take multis and vitamin C daily for over 40 years. So did a friend that died from pancreatic cancer. Is my sample accurate or is yours?
Answers: diseases are more complex than simple answers and I will place more faith in folks that dedicated a lifetime to studying them than some narcissistic blow hard, whom I voted for both times Glunt. Maybe some day both sides will get past the binary thinking...Orange Man bad/god.
Not when they're both being pushed by the same sheep herders union!!
Also, the medical community and climate scientists are different groups. Where would you go if you cut your leg off? NASA? JPL?
Covid has been hard on aerospace manufacturing.
If these shots don't get the economy back on track at least somewhat, we are in for a very tough road ahead IMHO.
Outside the Faucci cult, there seems to be a lot of health professionals that agree. But, some don’t like common logic or anything that presents as a logical conclusion.
Far enough is having men telling everyone how to think and act. Do your thing and allow others to do theirs. It’s pretty simple. Remember, your mask will save you. Three will absolutely save you.
Take care and God Bless you men.
And no, you can't use humans as test subjects and intentionally expose them, so you can't run that kind of a study. You can only test people who've gotten the vaccine for active infection and compare it with people who haven't had the vaccine - just as they compare people who've had the vaccine and get hospitalized and/or die vs those who haven't.
The numbers are still remarkable. And no swamp creature US politician boogeymen to blame for the numbers for the conspiracy folks.
Glunt@work's Link
First shot, 3/23, second 4/21.
Moderna. Getting them for my wife, but even if not married would still get them;-)
And its for anyone I come in contact with. Lord knows my business depends on interacting with the public. I need my job so I can provide, live and have the ability to hunt...lord willing.
From what I've seen, at this point, it's hard to say more than "maybe" for Vit D saving the day with C-19...
Now, it's Vit D and many people living in the north are low, so... what the heck. I do not see evidence showing high functionality in stopping covid. it seems to fall into early HCQ issues where the research is to murky and as better research is done any potential benefit melts away. But there may be other reasons to take D (you live in the north for example) so go for it.
Those of you getting the shot - good on you! Well done!
Like I said before, somebody believes it works. Even if the bowsite promaskers don’t.
29,000,000 cases (prob underestimated)
529,000 deaths (prob overestimated)
Even if the death toll is grossly overestimated, hundreds of thousands of people have died from this. And in addition to all the deaths, there are many many people with serious and lasting effects from the disease. I know personally quite a few people that are dealing with effects months after “getting over” the virus.
With millions and millions of doses of the vaccine already given, it is pretty credible that the chances of serious side effects are very low
Not trying to convince the non vaccers to get one. You have made up your mind. But for those sitting on the fence, the predominance of science says you are safer with the vaccine than the disease.
I am also tired of getting up each day with a little fear that today might be the day I get it. I want to feel a semblance of normal again and for me that means getting the vaccine. I would rather take a known extremely low chance with the vaccine vs the Russian roulette of the virus.
And as I always say...everyone has the right to decide for themselves. For myself, I’m doing everything possible. And actually I’m doing it for my family.
529,000 deaths (prob overestimated)"
Then the 1.8% fatality rate is significantly lower. Right?
"I want to feel a semblance of normal again..."
Sorry, this IS the new normal. The government keeps moving the goal of when a sense of normalacy will return. Remember, once given, a government will never freely return control to its serfs. Look at how we allowed governors to destroy state economys with their heavy handed and punitive EO's.
"I would rather take a known extremely low chance with the vaccine vs the Russian roulette of the virus."
Yeah.....about Russian roulette. See above. You think Russian roulette is a virus that has a ~99% survival rate.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1127639/covid-19-mortality-by-age-us/
Then explain all the less than 30 year olds and kids. Please.
But here’s a fact.
mRNA – Also known as messenger ribonucleic acid, mRNA is the only active ingredient in the vaccine. The mRNA molecules contain the genetic material that provide instructions for our body on how to make a viral protein that triggers an immune response within our bodies. The immune response is what causes our bodies to make the antibodies needed to protect us from getting infected if exposed to the coronavirus.
I respect freedom of choice and opinion as well.
That's all we ever hear. Never, "get some exercise, quit eating shit, lose the fat, get outside, improve your immune system."
Americans are fat, weak, and easy to kill.
Those of you who've had difficulty finding an appointment might try Walmart's GoodRx website. The Walmart pharmacies are linked to the federal (and not being administered by State or County Health departments). They had a ton of appointments available here in TN as well as TX and IL. Give it a try, its worked for several of our friends.
the explanation is in the link. Read it. Here’s another https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/covid-19-deaths-by-age/
3710 out of 500k people under 30 have died from Covid so far . You can bet that a high percentage of them had underlying health conditions and or obesity. 80% of all deaths the people were obese. This whole killing of the economy could have been easily avoided by locking down the elderly and people with obesity and people obesity related health conditions.
That would be downright un-American to do all those things. And yeah....the medical community has been preaching this for decades without success. Probably 1/3 of the health care professionals in the U.S. don’t eat right and could lose some weight.
Doubt that will garner much support!
Agreed.....and I bet it's much higher than 1/3. Except Idylwild. He needs to eat a few more cheeseburgers. :-)
I am 63. Your statistics. puts me at 6.7% chance of dying.
That’s pretty high odds in a game of Russian roulette. My odds of dying from the vaccine are Aprox 1 in 90,000. That is a 0.000011 chance. I’ll take those odds.
“ If you are not obese , diseased and under 65 you really have nothing to worry about”
Guess we don’t need to worry about those people. They brought it on themselves by being older, obese, or diseased. We don’t really need people with diabetes around anyway.
I’m 63 also. I had Covid , it was a runny nose for two days. Work out 7 days a week since I was 15. Zero prescriptions next to zero alcohol and sugar.
Reminds me of my favorite Ben Shapiro quote. Love him or hate him, it's so true:
"Facts don't care about your feelings."
Matt's Link
The point here being that those who imply outcomes are binary (you survive and are fine or you die) are idiots.
Glunt, I agree, compassion for all, that’s what makes the human race special, and real tough guys know that.
I am just tired of the ‘here’s how it is’ crap when there is still much to learn about this health challenge. Tired of the binary choice of we agree on everything or you are my enemy. And tired of keyboard tough guys, most are just blowhards.
I have lived an almost normal existence through this. I am pushing my college to allow those of us who want to be back in the classroom, students and faculty, to do so. I have continued to go to stores and restaurants as much as I felt I wanted to. Being married to a dental hygienist, I have long practiced good hygiene. I wear glasses, the masks are a real pain with fog. I wear them to respect others, but when not required I keep my distance and do not wear one. I exercise daily, and take vitamins and silver biotics. I am outdoors working on habitat several times a week, a very active guy.
Just get tired of punk a$$es who think they are someone special. Reminds me of the blowhards in USMC OCS who showed up on the first day and told everyone how bad they were. They were some of the first to DOR. On any given day there is always someone badder and tougher, and the loudest mouth in mocking others is typically the most insecure. And Jack, in case I am not being direct enough I meant you. The guy at Orschelan’s, he broke eye contact first bud and you know what I am saying.
I sometimes wonder what the narrative would be if this pandemic primarily took the lives of children under age 15 and possibly having a predisposing condition. Would we value their lives more ..... or would we be as quick to write off their loss as we are the older population?
You mean like people that imagine a big mean MAGA man staring them down in the restaurant and someone telling everyone it was him ,me and my buddy Smith and Wesson, That kind of fake tough guy?
Kevin, how is pointing to the death statics writing off the older population? How is suggesting that the people most vulnerable be the ones that take precautions instead of those who are not at risk a bad idea?
Matt, if we are going to mange by corner cases then people have died from the vaccine , pretending that the cure is binary is idiocy.
Jackaroo's Link
Matt
Not just hand wringing...I would love to know how many are getting vaccinated, or have already, that used to claim this was all an international hoax to get rid of trump. I see one who was in that group is now getting the shot. I guess add hypocrisy or they have seen the light?
OTH, thanks to you guys that did admit to getting the shot and helping to convince others to do so. Kudos to the OP.
Matt
Wife and I are 2 weeks from our 2nd moderna shots
Where have you been? Have you ever heard of "democrats"?
Jackaroo's Link
https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/across-virtually-every-key-measure-childhood-progress-has-gone-backward-unicef-says
You're the type guy I'd love to meet face to face, just to see if you are as tough in person as you come across on your keyboard. I doubt it.
Matt
I consider it an act of love and patriotism to let the people that might die get the shot first. After everyone over 40 that wants the vaccine has had it, then I might be a patriot.
Look, consider yourself lucky that you had mild Covid symptoms. Millions of people weren't/aren't so lucky. Your notion that only the highest risk people should be the ones to sacrifice for the overall safety of our society would be laughable, if it wasn't so pathetic.
BTW, did you ever consider the fact that you contracted Covid may mean you aren't as bullet-proof as you think?
Matt
(I'm hoping my intense craving for human flesh goes away soon though)
“Your notion that only the highest risk people should be the ones to sacrifice for the overall safety of our society would be laughable, if it wasn't so pathetic.”
You miss the point , they sacrifice for their own safety, no one else’s. For People in the low risk group the high risk group isn’t a threat they are not protecting anyone but themselves. It’s the flu for the low risk . All these measures have done years of damage to the lowest risk group,kids. The numbers don’t lie.
I didn't miss your point. Using your twisted logic, it could be argued that anyone who contracted Covid has an inherently weak immune system, and they should sacrifice their lifestyles for the overall safety of our society. How would you like that narrative?
Matt
Perhaps you should head down to the border, set up a revival tent, and preach it to the our newly invited guests. You know...the ones that don't give a shit about us, our families, or any other American citizens. Perhaps you can wait until they fly the illegals into your hometown for redistribution. Tell them they need to get the shot before they get all of their free shit! SMH
marvelous's Link
You don’t understand much yourself. Italians are huggers and gatherers, no matter what the government says. Point being, there are lots of variables at play besides what policies were instituted. Since you feel comfortable concluding frequently what most people do, I comfortably conclude you are one of those who only see information that confirms your pre-existing biases.
Jack you also have a leg up on us who haven’t had the virus yet. You know you are in the “mild” case category. Chances are 94% that my experience with Covid, if I do contract it, will be similar to yours. But I have seen friends of mine in that 6%. And not just obese or with medical issues.
And you ignore the aftermath. As stated already multiple times: it ain’t just the death statistics. You could prob double or triple that 6% when you include those that will have long term and possibly lifelong problems after “getting over” this virus.
And as also stated: if this was only killing children, we would not be having this discussion.
You are entitled to your opinion as am I. Good hunting!
How many have died from the COVID vaccine? How many have long-term or permanent health implications from COVID? How many have died from COVID?
The idiocy here is trying to compare the first to either of the other two.
Matt's Link
While the deaths that have occurred following vaccination, even if 100% was due to them - although none has actually been attributed to the vaccine, you would still be ~1,000x more likely to die from COVID.
I hope the Medical Community has done a better job with the mRNA " vaccine " than they have done with treatment protocols in 2020. Seems like a lot of unnecessary deaths to me, since they know all the answers... The " experts " thought Agent Orange was the best thing since sliced bread too, in the early '70's.
Good luck to all.
:-)
Just scroll down the list of thread contributors at the start, and click on the last name, or the first one for 'today'.
TREESTANDWOLF's Link
I was scheduled for 4/16, however my son told me about CVS Pharmacy shortcut that lets you know when the vaccine is in stock so the appointment can be made. My first one is today and second on 4/6.
Even though when you go to the web site, and the pharmacies are “ Fully Booked” the creators of the app and texts send you the information updated in real time.
Just though I’d share some good info.
Link is provided below.
Rich
But please do get yours soon.
How many stories like this do people have to hear before they realize this is not just another virus??!!
Then explain all the less than 30 year olds and kids. Please.
But here’s a fact.
mRNA – Also known as messenger ribonucleic acid, mRNA is the only active ingredient in the vaccine. The mRNA molecules contain the genetic material that provide instructions for our body on how to make a viral protein that triggers an immune response within our bodies. The immune response is what causes our bodies to make the antibodies needed to protect us from getting infected if exposed to the coronavirus.
I respect freedom of choice and opinion as well.
At this point, I don’t think anyone knows. So, I’ll take my antibodies and go on with life right now. And, have zero plans on getting it.
What was his reasoning? Some have suggested a policy that those who have natural immunity due to a COVID infection in the past 90 days delay to allow those who have not to get the vaccine to maximize societal protection.
While I believe the research is limited, from what I have read the response with the vaccine following being COVID positive results in a significantly higher level of antibodies and there is a belief the protection may be more durable than natural immunity.
Gladly! Thank you for your service to fellow Americans for standing in the breach to let others have immunity from a horrible disease that picks no favorites and runs some folks over with ease and barely touches others.
Thank you so much! I figured it would be May before I got my first. Sitting at the table waiting my 15 min after second this very second :-)
My qualifications: just a veterinarian that knows a little bit about diseases and “herd immunity”. Hope we get there by summer
I'm supposed to get my 2nd Pfizer shot 4-16, I've heard some people feel bad after the 2nd shot. I'm going ahead with the shot anyway, and be done with it.
Tried for 6 weeks in CT and nothing available. Walked into a Right Aid here in Ohio (first time) and got the shot.
Feeling bad after the shot, to different levels, is expected. It's your body learning how to fight off the disease. It means your immune system works!
Both doses of Moderna, 10 minute wait each time, slight headache the first day after the first shots nothing the second time. There's a lot we don't know about this virus. May never know. But for me the shot was worth risk.
I fasten my seatbelt, too, and not because the gubmint requires it.
Me too but I have to say as a youngster my Daddy required it as did I with my kids. My 16 yr old son tried to test my resolve on that issue and I pulled over and told him we would stop and let him out and pick him back up on the return trip. He fastened it.
I took Ibuprofen and will see if it does anything tonight or tomorrow.
62, non smoker and non drinker, fitness buff, pilot, family man, outdoor enthusiast.
Took his lungs out.
He wasn't old enough for the first vaccine administration, unlucky I guess.
Matt's Link
Sample sizes of 1 are dangerous.
With no vaccine, 10% of people got Covid and 98% of those recovered. If a majority of people get the vaccine and it works, the risk for unvaccinated people should plummet.
Our county is very rural and lightly populated. We’ve had 52 deaths here r/t the virus. I’m friends with a couple of guys who own funeral homes. Both of them contracted the virus within 3 months of its arrival. Both told me they were very sick, but rode it out at home. Both have prepared bodies of those who died from covid, and have seen the final outcome. They’ve both told me about tragic deaths and subsequent funerals for people in their 40s and 50s. Finally, both of them got the vaccine and now publicly encourage its acceptance.
I lost a good friend last year. Think of him every day. I had another who had a brush with death and pulled through. They wanted to intubate him but he refused and toughed it out. His weight is still way down. It’s real and scary for sure. I can’t imagine anyone not wanting to get the vax at least at some point.
1 caught it when it was first hitting the states and another when he was in italy. They both got reinfected about a year later.
70lbdraw's Link
This should tell you all you need to know about where this is going.
spike78's Link
Matt's Link
I presume you are unaware that the 2020 US mortality estimates were released last week and heart disease - which apparently no one dies of any more - was the #1 cause of death. But go on, learn us more please...
I don't have the patience or maybe the smarts to explain clinic trials to you. But I worked for big pharm for about 15 years. I get clinic trials. The statically probability of the results being "luck" are probably similar to you when the power ball 3 times in a row.
The main reason we still do the precautions is because 1) most businesses here have signs on the door requesting mask use, 2) we have always practiced good hand hygiene as we’re both health care professionals, and 3) we have supported the 3 Ws from the beginning and think it’s still the socially responsible thing to do until the infection rate (% +) drops to low levels. And as I always say, we avoid judgment and think everyone has the ultimate right to decide how to live in their own spaces.
Pardon my skepticism, but the results for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were released in 2020 and were leading story/front page news. If you cared, you'd know.
Those vaccines have an effectiveness in the mid-90% range. To suggest that it is pointless if they are not 100% effective is simply ignorant.
Consequently- One of our health care providers here that had his second shot about 2 months ago has Covid pretty bad this week.
My clinic is doing a terrible job notifying their patients. They only get 100 doses a week. My wife got ill for a good 36 hours after her second shot, which is common.
The vaccines have been a blessing. There is no reason to not get it at this point other than being stubborn and/or holding to some righteous partisanship - ie: cutting off your nose to spite your face.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to know what killed the 3 who died because I believe the number of COVID deaths in the clinical trials which had many times more participants had essentially 0 deaths or even hospitalizations.
Not sure about Michigan, but it sounds like Quebec and Ontario (as well as BC) are getting hit with the UK variant (B.1.1.7) which is acting more quickly, sickening much younger people, and they are claiming has a death rate that is ~50% greater than the original.
Matt's Link
Politicized, yes. Exaggerated? I have seen some obvious examples of instances where COVID was allegedly listed as the cause of death where it obviously was not, but is the total exaggerated? I do not think so. Excess deaths in the US in 2020 was 523K. While certainly not all were due to COVID, it makes the 345K 2020 US COVID deaths believable. Some medical experts are saying that COVID deaths were likely undercounted given the significant lack of testing capacity early on, which is likewise plausible given the excess death figure.
My wife and I got the second dose yesterday evening. This morning she is fine - I feel "woozy", weak, and slightly feverish. In fact, I didn't feel up to my scheduled bow practice this morning.
At 68, with mild asthma, a history of bronchitis and pneumonia, and slow growing (?, lol!) prostrate cancer, I'm still glad that I got it no matter what the statistics are.
More annoyed that my bowstring broke on the first shot of the evening!
I saw this on Facebook this AM and found it interesting. Where I live never shut down, never masked, never did anything and here are our current numbers. We are rural which helps for sure too. Sure wish Canada could figure things out and open the border.
At less than 0.03%, with a good immune system, vitamin D, and ivermectin, I’ll take my chances versus the potential side effects that may not show up for years...
Actually quite surprised there has not been a major uprising over the stripping of everyone’s rights, freedom, and so many people’s livelihoods over all of this insanity.
Will certainly continue to pray for our country and all the people affected by this insanity.
Most people I know that have caught the virus had very little symptoms, one person died.
Really? No. Really? A vaccine that is less than one year old has major data? Long term efficacy? None? Long term side effects? None. WE are the clinicals and long term trials. And THAT is my issue with the vaccine.
That’s the problem with Google. You can find any position on any subject you want. Please post links to credible science that says ivermectin doesn’t help. I haven’t seen that. Quite a few that indicate it might be helpful.
Throughout history, the best minds and people among human kind have always been ridiculed for their taboo thoughts and beliefs. And, history has shown they weren’t that taboo at all. I’m pretty certain that’s the “science” of this virus.
I’m happy for those that’s got it. I’m happy it’s available. I think it’s likely safe. Especially in the short term. But, I’m willing to let my fellow man decide if it’s for him. Without all the shaming and condescending talk.
You almost stand a better chance of choking to death on a hotdog then dying from this. But, if it makes Dana and Matt feel better, let’s throw out logic and human rights. Yeah boy. Sign me up.
I'm more afraid of infecting a friend, or my brother, or one of my sisters. Or any of the people I come in daily contact with. But you all go on bleating about 'leftist politics.'
I have gotten my first vaccine because I have looked at the data and I believe it is safe and effective and I don't want to get the China Virus. With that said anyone I could infect if I didn't get it has had the choice to get it or not get it. Anyone high risk was eligible to get the vaccine long before me. If they don't get vaccinated and get the China Virus that is on them. It is not mine or anyone else responsibility to get a vaccine they are not comfortable getting to protect someone else that decided not to get vaccinated.
Get the vaccine if you are comfortable getting. Don't get it if you are not comfortable getting. If you are not comfortable getting that is your call, but no need to call out those that are comfortable getting it. Same with us that are comfortable getting vaccinated that is our choice. Not our place to berate those that don't want to get it.
I have significant concerns for humanity, freedom and God given rights. The last year has not given me much hope for humanity.
I truly would have never dreamed I would ever see so many Americans blindly run to follow all of the baseless unscientific mandates and rush to get a shot that has the potential of massively changing humanity. Blindly putting faith in the MSM, big pharma, big tech, and politicians that the jab is necessary.
Throwing away their basic human rights and demanding mine!
The attacks on religion, individual freedom, and censorship of anything not following the narrative are not what this country was founded on not what its people believed in. Not that long ago, our fathers, grandfathers, sons and daughters went to wars with other countries overseas to free their people from this kind of tyranny and oppression.
99.97% survivable. Far lower fatality than the flu. Improved treatment using safe, effective, inexpensive drugs that have been in use for many years with minimal side effects.
No, the FEAR has gripped far to many in this country and around the world. Hopefully people come to their senses and see how baseless that FEAR really was before it’s too late.
Hell, may already be too late.
Communism is the virus. Covid is just how it was spread...
I don't march in lock-step to the 'conservative' agenda, never have, but if you just have to label me, maybe try 'libertarian.' I might even agree ;-)
Is that logical thinking, or does that make me a Marxist nut sack that just does what the government tells me to do? Asking for a friend.
One warning about those counterfeit vaccination cards, don't get caught with one in MN or you might end up face down, handcuffed, with a knee to your neck/shoulders and unable to breathe.
Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and political freedom, emphasizing free association, freedom of choice, individualism and voluntary association. Libertarians share a skepticism of authority and state power, but some of them diverge on the scope of their opposition to existing economic and political systems
In fact that sounds a lot like Trump republicans.
Sorry that does not fit your post on here even a little bit.
Matt
Matt's Link
I linked one of the few studies I read. My take away was that, although there were some measures that showed improvement with ivermectin, they fell into the statistically insignificant category. Not a treatment I personally would hang my hat on.
I do wonder how many guys have run down to the feed store after reading the comment....
I know two people who have died shortly after getting the vaccine due to blood clots. I personally don’t know two people who died from covid although I know there were deaths
That was specifically posted for irrational, far right wing whackos like you that I knew it would agitate. Thanks, a good day when one can return fire;-)
And you are going to do that how exactly?
I don't back peddle or mince words. Only extremists like you will claim someone is a cop hater who is willing to call out the cops who abuse their authority, which is exactly what our FF would expect us to do. And the ones who abuse their authority are in the vast minority, like every profession.
And, I call those officers out whether they abused their authority against a minority or non-minority, whereas obviously we have seen some extremists who have different standards for minorities.
Looking forward to shot 2, in 3 weeks.
I tend to agree with Bob on a lot of his post. If you are unsure, talk to your medical provider and find out if they feel if it makes sense for you. They do, unquestionably, know more about it relative to you than anyone you will see on the news or read from in any online platform.
Also - Ivermectin and covid, please understand that Merck, who MAKES THE DANG STUFF has publicly noted it does NOT work for COVID. Zero. Ziltch. Bumpkiss. Tweedledee doo. Nada. Nuttin. They could make gazillions by just pretending it worked and trying to get folks to prescribe it (tough to do with zero evidence though)... https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/
Then again I have a friend who is still convinced it's a cure all because their chiropractor showed them a study about how in a petri dish it could kill covid - dish soap does too, just sayin... and despite the reams of evidence it does zero... the misinformation/pseudoscience world has kept pushing it a bit.
Also note, that the medical community wants, BADLY, to help every person they see. If you seriously believe physicians, NP's, PA's, etc would choose to stop (HCQ for example) using a drug or NOT use a drug (ivermectin for example) that had evidence it worked for some secret reason, you are wrong.
If you didn't say that, what did you mean by your comment above?
I find it interesting that some people automatically ascribe "fear" as the reason that people would get vaccinated, perhaps it helps them rationalize their decisions? The things I am concerned about - not in fear of - are the economy, people's livelihoods, and the amount of debt our nation will be passing along to our children. The faster we are done with the pandemic-related restrictions, the better. If I have take on some risk of the unknown to advance the greater good, so be it. It used to be that self-sacrifice was an American value. Now it seems like some use terms like "freedom", "liberty", and "patriotism" as euphemisms for entitlement.
The “pandemic” restrictions were based on false premise with unconstitutional stripping of individual rights and freedoms.
You are justifying the striping of rights, freedom and pursuit of livelihood from your fellow man in your assertions. The forcible imposition of your will and beliefs on those that share a difference of opinion.
Step back, take a deep breath and think about what you are saying.
Is this the America you really want?
Writing letters to my congressman and playing Constitutional scholar on the internet are not going to get us there.
LOL, we’re rocking down here in Florida(way before vaccine ever was distributed). Sorry u live in a state that controls your life
Ironic. That's about the time the effectivness of the Pfizer vaccine starts wearing off.
Then.... we can "look at the rules we are being forced to live by and trying to chart the most practical and expeditious path out of it."
Kinda funny someone criticizes those that espouse freedom and constitutional restraint on government overeach and at the same time licking the boot upon their neck. Because complacency is the governments best friend.
I still have tournament plans for Maryland. New Jersey North Carolina and South Carolina No matter what
That's a lie, not surprising.
Worked in Pharma for 8 years. Have no reason to lie. This was an untested, unproven vaccine, dumped on an all too compliant society. Feel free to Google yourself. Study after study shows it's efficacy runs about 6 months. They "think" it should run longer, but given they've been wrong OR have changed positions numerous times, let's just say if I was a betting man, these restrictions and mandates will be in place for quite sometime.
This was a perfect opportunity or crisis for government at federal and state levels. And we know what the democrats think of a "good crisis". Not an anti-vaxxer by any means. Except for this one. And that is because of the timline and lack of long term data. Period.
We looked at the decision the same as we did long term care plans or insurance meaning "something you might not need -- until you need it).
Only reaction was our arms were sore and we were both tired as heck the day of the shot.
The day after the shot we mowed 5 acres and started getting ready to till last years food plots under.
Matt
It’s caused by all the illegal, excuse me, undocumented, migrants coming through our newly porous border.
HDYLMN? ;-)
I got vaccinated. I’m not a vaccine denier, but math matters.
Illinois has 57% of the population of Florida. Despite Florida’s aged population, not operating under a lockdown and its tourism, and with the “largest outbreak of new Covid cases”, Illinois has 55% of the Active Covid cases of Florida. What I would call a statistically insignificant difference.
Why is Florida running neck and neck with Illinois despite its demographics and tourism and lack of restrictions as risk multipliers? Would Illinois be worse off if it’s economy were freed?
Why no big difference?
In terms of new Covid cases, probably.
Matt
I’m just saying that there doesn’t seem to be a correlation like I would expect.
My oldest has asthma. I’m being as prudent as possible. We’ve been successful in avoiding Covid in my immediate family... so far.
Something else has to be in play though.
Logic dictates that Texas and Florida should have much higher per capita numbers than Illinois, but they don’t.
People can make fun of me for my precautions. I’m not going to change my approach. I’m pretty much simply following the directions that I got from my grandmother when I was a kid. Seems to make sense to me and I don’t think it’s onerous.
But I am sitting at work, within 100 yards of at least a half dozen businesses that have closed and many more that are in dire straits.
The lockdowns here have had a very real detrimental impact on real people and there doesn’t seem to be any real, readily visible benefit to the infection rate compared to areas that aren’t killing their businesses and destroying people’s livelihoods.
Could it be there are a lot of other factors at work as well??? Such as in my state of Texas. Here it could be that our big numbers of cases in the past (when we removed restrictions) along with our present massive vaccine program, are helping us reach some semblance of herd immunity.
You can pretty much make statistics say whatever you want them to say, but it’s never that simple.
So chase your beloved tarpon in Colorado, don’t come down here.
A thoughtful and well thought out post. You bring up valid points. And I agree with you: the time for keeping businesses closed or restricted is past. People can choose for themselves at this point.
But it does also, in my opinion, make vaccines more important presently to get out of this mess
I'm not disputing the economic impact that the shutdowns have had. But I do believe they served to slow down the spread of the virus. Whether the cost was worth the reward is for each to decide. The shutdowns had very little impact on my life. And like your family, we've been lucky to avoid getting infected. But I realize it's a different story for many.
I'm just tired of the hand-wringers whining about "loss of freedoms" and "behavioral control devices", as if those temporary measures were the end of the world. We're a society of laws and regulations, after all.
Matt
But to those that are thinking conservative = not getting Covid vaccine....... not true. As a staunch conservative and a veterinarian, for me it is about the science. And I don’t believe there is a world wide medical community conspiracy . Governmental control about what I do and where I go is a whole other subject.
Yep. I’m just a guy on the internet. But I have the same medical degrees as Bill Gates.
Logic suggests that previous infections, vaccines and prudence should be having impact. I am not advocating for people to avoid the vaccine, disregard prudence and start licking gooey people.
I’m washing hands frequently, actively working to get more sleep, eat nutritious meals, exercise outdoors and because I’m Swedish, thus likely Vitamin D deficient, I’m taking Vitamin D and though I’m not a soda and crap food fan, I’m really avoiding anything with high fructose corn syrup which apparently affects Vitamin D. And I’m taking some other vitamins as well.
I never took vitamins before, but I figure that the $0.29 that I’m spending a day is inconsequential and even if it doesn’t help, it won’t hurt.
I have a buddy who’s a triathlete. He got Covid after Thanksgiving. It was a mild case, but he’s now one of the “Long Haulers”. It’s been about four and a half months and he still can’t run around the block.
I have people busting my balls from both ends of the spectrum every day. That’s OK. I’m going to do what I think is right or prudent with the limited info that I have.
I’m kind of like Goldilocks. I firmly believe that Covid is real and can be very serious. I have friends and family that have been impacted seriously and died. I also believe that the government has out stepped its bounds. Chicago politics originated the idea, “Never let a good crisis go to waste.” I think the government has gotten out of control and is headed further.
But I am aware of my own hypocrisies and work to explore them.
How about smoking in bars, concert arenas and restaurants? The government has the right to ban smoking from public places? If I were to choose to go to a bar with smoking that’d be my choice... and second hand smoke wouldn’t be coming home with me to kill an elderly family member or my kid with asthma.
How about asbestos and lead abatement? If I choose to work with asbestos and lead without proper protocols and protection, that’s my choice, right? And I can choose to bring that exposure home on my clothes to expose my kids when I hug them, right?
So, I guess that I’m just saying that this is more complicated than binary. And that I’m just a contrarian, agreeing and disagreeing with everyone.
It takes quite a few rationalizations for me to get through each day.
Excellent rational approach! And there are differences between the states, weather such as average temperatures, sun exposure etc. might even play a role.
Second shot scheduled for next week, but I do believe the government has gone too far at this point. The costs of closure seem to be much greater than the benefits, and I say this with the utmost respect for human life and not wanting any further deaths or debilitations. OB is taking personal responsibility and watching his own behavior, which we all must do. The government should provide the facts as they discover them to allow us to process the information and make better individual decisions, but we have to take calculated risks and move forward IMHO.
“ I'm not disputing the economic impact that the shutdowns have had. But I do believe they served to slow down the spread of the virus. Whether the cost was worth the reward is for each to decide. The shutdowns had very little impact on my life. And like your family, we've been lucky to avoid getting infected. But I realize it's a different story for many.”
“The shutdowns had very little impact on my life.”
1917 Spanish Flu...50 million plus deaths
Chinese Covid....3 million approximate deaths so far
BIG difference even considering counting errors that no doubt occurred.
More people exist today, greater densities, more travel etc. than in 1917. Maybe the shutdowns, improved sanitation, social distancing, better health care made that much of a difference? I find it hard to believe that this virus is as bad as predicted. Don't think it was a conspiracy, just think they got it wrong, but I have no health care training so my thoughts don't matter.
I'm not sure if your meme is intended as an insult, or not, but I'll take it as a compliment. I loved that movie and the character that Clint Eastwood played in it. It also had a good message about the merits of hard work, honesty, and overcoming racial biases.
Hackbow, I hope you find peace and happiness in your life, because it must be miserable living with your doom and gloom attitude.
Matt
How proud Pavlov would be...
Just some humor. No insult intended. I like the movie.
Please always default to assuming that I mean no harm with any of my posts. I’m an ex-rugby player. I’m not passive aggressive. More aggressive aggressive. If my desire is to insult, I will be direct and pointed.
As I alluded to earlier, my views don’t really align with anyone else’s and when they do, I still have contradictions that I have to rationalize.
Life would be very difficult if I needed everyone to agree with me. I’d have to be a hermit.
You can still get covid. Just lessons the effects.
You can still pass covid to others.
You still have to wear a mask.
We still have to lockdown.
So if what the experts are saying is true, you're really not protecting anyone. Accept maybe yourself, by it lessening the effects, if you do happen to contract it.
But get it for the greater good, because we tell you to. And try to shame anyone that doesn't agree with you regardless of what side you are on.
This is/was America! We used to stand for the rights of the individual.
Get it if you want, don't if you don't. But this BS of restricting travel, work, concerts, anything because you don't have a vaccine card, is a bunch of crap. Shaming people cuz they don't get the vaccine, or wear a mask because they are killing people, is another bunch of crap.
It is the dog being wagged by the tail.
Designed to lesson the severity of the virus and keep you out of the hospital and death
Treeline's Link
This is definitely interesting.
Habitat for Wildlife's Link
Figure out who pays them. Might also be enlightening to see where these “fact checkers” are from...
I did check the CDC web site and found the source material that the article I posted refers to.
Much more credibility than the MSM, that’s not a great standard, LOL.
The internet will provide “facts” supporting any view you already believe.
Oops.....
ummm...thats what a vaccine does.
The Covid-19 vaccine isn’t providing absolute protection....just as the influenza vaccines do not. It’s a matter of degree. It may help you completely avoid covid, or it may lessen your disease severity. If you consider yourself to be at an elevated risk of severe disease (I do, due to age and lack of a spleen) the benefits of vaccination probably outweigh the risk of unknown future effects.
How do they rate CNN? Has anyone seen the latest by project Veritas- James O'Keefe? Hilarious, the Technical Director goes out on 5 "dates", they have him on Audio/Video talking about making stuff up about Trump during the election and during his term (shocker), he literally called it propaganda. He said they made things up, like the time Trumps hand was "shaking" - and they had medical doctor after medical doctor on trying to say he was mentally unstable, because they had nothing else to go with at the time. He goes on to say, they covered for Biden during the election, etc etc everything we already knew. He said they will be pushing climate issue hard during the Biden admin to get the public softened for the new changes coming from them. I realize it wont go anywhere except on Fox - but its still funny (and sad) to watch.
I dont know how to post a link - came on on April 14 - Mediaite Reports CNN Guy Went On 5 Tinder Dates With Veritas Undercover Operative.
Habitat for Wildlife's Link
Here you go, same source. Maybe try researching before opining?
He expressed to me that Covid will likely continue forever. That going forward, the recommendation will end up being to get a flu shot annually in the fall and that Covid shots be done twice a year.
He said that these shots are important to get out as fast as possible to reduce transmission as quickly as possible. That reduced transmission and replication will reduce mutations and variants.
Every transmission ends up with replications that foster mutation as the copies of the copy occur.
Those mutations can render the virus less efficient or more efficient and potentially more deadly. Natural selection. The nastier versions are more successful. Especially with longer infectious incubation periods with asymptomatic transmission possible.
Supposedly, the pharmaceutical companies are already working to address the new variants, pouring piles of money and research into the process. The real concern is that this Corona virus could become more like the Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Variant which is more durable and robust AND be more infectious.
The new discussion about third shots as an additional booster is, according to him, all about reducing replication.
He said that is the reason for the push for large scale vaccinations and continuing with mask and sanitizing protocols afterward. That epidemiologists are not concerned with herd immunity to the current, thankfully less deadly than feared, current variants, but that there is real concern about a mutated variant resulting from the trillions of replications that are occurring daily.
He seemed reasonable and logical and intelligent and matter of fact. What say you guys here who have medical backgrounds?
Basically the information I received from multiple doctors in our circle and why we decided to get vaccinated. I believe it was Pfizer that already announced we will need annual boosters for the variants.
Of course the conspiracy types will conclude Big Pharma is just insuring continued profits and working with government jointly on a plot to control us. Really frustrating to witness the constant criticism of the media being biased and presenting one side while those with a penchant for conspiracies do exactly the same.
Actually it wasn’t rhetorical. It was a sincere question for anyone in the medical profession. I know that there are physicians and biochemists on this site.
I get it that there’s no way to vet them either, but there are some that I know of and respect.
Just trying to gain additional information and trying to better my understanding.
As I said in an earlier post. I’m choosing to be very prudent because my oldest has asthma. I get the math. I understand the statistics with kids, but the asthma is a risk multiplier and wild card and I’m an “essential” worker who’s been out and about in high a density population area the entire time. Any concern for myself is minimal. My concern regarding my child is much greater. If my stupid human tricks are the price to minimize risk to my kid, I’ll continue to pay that price.
Feel free to make fun of me if you wish. I’m married. I can take it.
Tank, apparently you aren’t as old as some of us. As a kid, I received a polio booster once a year. I didn’t mind, in fact I looked forward to that sugar cube.
Point is, medical science isn’t static, it’s constantly changing as more and more is l learned every day. Who knows if yearly boosters will be the norm. Like others, for me the short-term benefits of the COVID vaccination far outweigh any potential long-term effects.
I understand the other side of the coin mentality. I also understand that state health departments have made the same claims as the linked article has. You’d have to be living under a rock, extremely biased, or simply plain ignorant not to at least acknowledge that reality. But, I’m not as intent to make this a discussion as some. Nor, do I get my kicks on hackling people from a seat of condensation.
Frank, I’m glad to hear you say that. I was worried the unbiased, correct, and always truthful Wall Street journal had you dubbed.
I’ve yet to see where the OAN has ever blatantly lied or even been wrong for that matter. And, I’ve followed them for several years. I guess some will call it a conspiracy to choose a biblical source for unbiased news. In comparison to the MSM, I can’t see how any responsible adult could rationalize that though. But, it’s what’s kept this thread pumping.
Good day gentlemen.
'merica
I was responding to Habitat - see my post above. I asked how they rate CNN? Then posted the Project Veritos info.
But Habitat in his typical smug ass way - told me to research it. Like I need to research if CNN is biased.... that was the rhetorical question.
Jeepers I’m going fishing’!
PM sent as well.
Wasn’t trying to be smug, thought you were questioning if Media Bias would rate CNN as liberal.
Jackaroo's Link
https://mobile.twitter.com/Outkick/status/1383423557766553608
know a few people who have gotten the vaccine because they fear the COVID and I'm okay with that. But they continue guzzling energy drinks, soda, McDonald's, sugary foods, and tons of other simple carbohydrates. Makes me chuckle.
...and, yes, HfW, freedom includes eating what you want right up until we get universal healthcare due to the result of our gluttonous American eating habits and lack of exercise that continues to drive up healthcare costs. Score one more for the dems.
Never heard of any of this going as fast as you are saying. Which vaccine did you get
I heard Pfizer may need a booster at some time but they were not sure at what point.
Just trying to gather info
Study after study is coming out indicating boosters will most likely be needed. In 6 months or so. So, we have a vaccine, where the general population is the clinical/trial study, pharma’s have indemnity, and all is paid for by the feds. Phuc dat. Whose the real winner?
That said, the wife and I are in no hurry to get jabbed. Mostly because we weren't eligible until recently, and the timing for the second jab would have been too close to our scheduled trip this week. So, we're going to continue to use the same precautions that have kept us COVID-free for the last year, and may consider getting a vaccine in June.
Matt
Doing better than I thought. Slight headache, some joint pain and fatigue but able to work.
https://rumble.com/vfv1a5-dear-god-do-not-get-the-vaccines-covid-shots-will-decimate-world-population.html
Not sure if I linked these correctly. Not news. Just a couple doctors discussing the "vaccine". Definately worth watching. The second one is a little more technical, but in layman's terms, about how the shot works.
My father gave me some good advice growing up. 1. always order the mushroom swiss burger. 2. never take health advice from a semi-anonymous looney tune (Shawn Maygar/tank/hedgehunter) on an internet forum.
100% total crap.
Enter the second Moderna shot on April 10. The first night was rough as I’ve already said, then things began to ease up. After about three days I began to feel better. The symptoms still come to visit, sometimes twice a day, but they don’t last but a couple minutes and they aren’t anywhere near as severe as they were before. Tuesday I split wood from 7:30 until 4:00 and I’m headed to turkey hunt next Tuesday. The only reason I got the “vaccine” was to see if I could get rid of this crap once and for all. I hope I have.
Hopefully you symptoms continue to disappear.
Matt's Link
Probably me. Which studies are those since you didn't link anything? I haven't found any studies that suggest that (and what I have read contradicts that), so I believe you are still wrong.
The studies I've looked at indicate the vaccine protection remains robust at 6 months. I linked the only article I could find that references a reduction in protection from the vaccine and it is only "expected" at this point based on what has been observed with those who have had the disease (natural immunity).
One has to remember that there are not a lot of people who have been vaccinated for more than 6 months + whatever time is needed to conduct/publish a study, so that is in essence as long a time horizon as the medical community can speak to.
From another recent article: "Analysis of 927 confirmed symptomatic cases of COVID-19 demonstrates BNT162b2 is highly effective with 91.3% vaccine efficacy observed against COVID-19, measured seven days through up to six months after the second dose."
That should not be misconstrued to imply it is less effective after 6 months, just that it hasn't been studied.
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-confirm-high-efficacy-and-no-serious
Good grief...
It seems that a vaccination record and negative Covid test within a day or two of travel should be enough to let people start traveling again. I suppose that makes too much sense though. Fingers crossed.
There is a balance to life and Liberty and the pursuit of happiness in all of our choices and sacrifices for the collective good.
Actually not even close
New York was the worst and the Javitts Center (sp) and the hospital ship were never used at all except for show
Damn peoples want to memories are so different than real memories are
Does not really matter I guess.
In the words of Ole Merle, ”if you don’t love it, leave it...”
Or for the truth. But why would that matter? Should we just let lies stand if the support your personal ideology?
To think we have people on this site who think it is only those on the other side who are sheep.
Jackaroo's Link
https://youtu.be/dPQY57pDQsk
So, no worries. In like 8 years folks should be able to elect Marjorie Taylor Greene as president with Matt Gaetz as VP by, like, 10:1, and all will be good. Just a couple years. Patience. We will all be gone soon.
He he he :)
Hopefully my feeble attempt at humor came through there.
Be sure to where your mask.
Let me guess...oan, newsmax, gateway pundit maybe?
Why? If you’re getting the vaccine, what do u care about the people that aren’t wearing masks?
Really? That’s your rebuttal, cracking on news sources. Lmao!!!!
Here’s more blue anon
This chart is the same thing. If you take a sample of population centers, it's likely more people in those areas have COVID... Simultaneously, a higher % of those folks are D.
So you have more people who are D's in general, and certainly in population centers more D's... And more people in those areas have frequent contact with others thus those folks have higher rates of COVID...
It's like showing a chart of where people ice skate on ponds. Clearly the south has low levels of pond skating, the south is generally considered Red... So clearly republicans dont like pond hockey. That's the style of conclusion one can draw from the orange and blue chart above. It states an obvious, and people attempt to conflate that all sorts of stuff to go with it... Context matters with statistics (or anything - but we dont like that anymore and just live by meme and soundbite)...
Yes, cracking on those “news sources”...all day long. Gas lighting is their business model. You know you are in trouble when you adopt the “news” narrative (right or left) and ignore your own eyes, ears, and logic. Prime symptom of gas lighting. Just because it’s repeated over and over and over doesn’t make it true.
Jackaroo's Link
https://mobile.twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1383415572864458753
Jack- Cool that you watch Bill Maher.
It is not exactly your own health. If you decide to not get the vaccine and forever isolate yourself then that is your own health. If you don't vaccinate but want still mingle among the heard then it is not your own health that is at stake. It is called a communicable disease you idiot. You don't get the vaccine...great, it is your right. But don't complain about lockdowns, masks, or social distancing, or if private business don't allow you to participate. It's capitalism and it's legal. At least for now.
Ever see me post that you or anyone should be forced to get a vaccine? Nope.
"Normal" is a societal construct.
Matthew 7:1-5 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
I’m not saying we should do this at all. If every person in the world was vaccinated we could all but wipe out the existence of this virus. Just like we have done in the past with other viruses. Just like polio, tetanus, rubella, measles, whooping cough, mumps, chicken pox, etc. you can thank those before you for vaccinating.
We can return the favor for future generations. Your choice.
I do not promote any lifestyle. I do promote letting others love who they want to love. I promote acceptance of people and against discrimination based on sexual orientation.
You really want to go there on gays vs strait with communicable diseases. Really, when only about 10% (give or take 5%) of the world are gay? Without looking at any sources I can tell you that is a losing argument just on shear numbers and statistics. Is your logic really that grade school? Seems like your backside is talented as it can type.
By the way, been in a happy monogamous relationship with my wife for 18 years. I am blessed to be in a happy marriage with an amazing women. Raised 5 kids to productive and good adults.
It seems those of fire and brimstone always seem to have the most skeletons in their closest. I wonder...
Beat it you hateful and hypocritical little man.
I’ll answer for all my actions someday and I’m comfortable with that because I know he knows me.
By the way, doesn’t the constitution protect “freedom of religion?” So how do you rectify that? Do you condemn the founding fathers for that? What about non-Christian Americans? Are they also deviants because they don’t believe in your God? You ever been divorced or have divorced friends? Are they deviants? I could go on and on. You got a stone to cast?
Did I miss the article that backs that statement? I'm no expert, but only time will tell if that's true. It has been only a few months since it's inception.
KSflatlander's Link
Regardless, you got me...touché
Matt's Link
There is a strong indication that widespread vaccination could do just that against the current variants, but as you stated it is not conclusive at this point.
The rationale is that the viral load of those who get COVID and are 12+ days post-2nd jab is significantly lower than the unvaccinated and the theory is that should.make them less prone to infect others.
"“The results show that infections occurring 12 [days] or longer after vaccination have significantly reduced viral loads at the time of testing, potentially affecting viral shedding and contagiousness as well as the severity of the disease,” the authors wrote."
At the end of the day, the goal isn't so much to stop people from getting COVID but to keep them from getting sick enough to he hospitalized or killed by it. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are very close to 100% effective at that.
It is a big experiment as far as I am concerned. Make your own choices.
Matt's Link
And lots of data that suggests otherwise.
If they ever open the border you will be good to go !!!
By calling out people making unsupported claims and providing actual studies that counter those claims? The only reason I can imagine you would find the truth so unpalatable is a fragile worldview.
Partially true but those supported and unsupported claims cut both ways
I feel perfectly secure in saying in the next five-eight years the data will support the truth. Not now
The world death toll is at 3 million. I'm betting it hits ten.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
So are you saying you think we will suffer the same demise as India?
Bryan, *in spite of* the anti-vaxxers we will not. On the whole we're way ahead of them in getting vaccinated. Too many of them will be dead before they have the chance we've been given.
The rest of the world is still in deep manure, and people here are more worried about whether they'll be able to go fishing in Canada.
Damned if you do...damned if you don't. But If you don't, you're a racist, and you don't care about the lives of millions of illegals coming over that might contract it from an American citizen. C'mon man!!!!
Just as sensical as arguing only the would-be vaccine recipient has any interst in whether they are vaccinated.
And thinking all the idiots are on the other side.
Hope springs eternal!
I am not anti vaccine as long as it is a choice. I am getting shot #2 next week. I am anti forced mask, anti lockdown, anti loss of freedom we have seen in the last year. It has become clear that half of Americans and a surprising number of bowsiters would walk around with a tampon in each ear if a government official told them too.
AMEN! and LMBO! : )
Q:I've had corona and have tested positive for antibodies I've heard the vaccine can really make you feel bad if you have Atbs is that true? I'm reluctant for that reason.TIA
Second shot had smooth delivery.
I understand that statistics are with my kids. I worry about my oldest who has asthma. I’m the family medical Guinea Pig.
I can give you a little bit of info. My daughter and most all of her dorm had the virus Last September. she had the moderna shot 1 a couple of weeks ago and felt crappy , fever aches pains, for a day then then she was fine. She said at the time, that was pretty consistent with the rest of her friends that had the virus then got the vaccine.
KSflatlander's Link
Really? I saw a CNN reporter standing in front of a burning building and claiming it was a peaceful protest. I heard about the Capitol police officer that was beaten to death with a fire extinguisher by Trump supporters. But when they discovered he died of an aneurysm they conveniently neglected to change their story. I guess Kool-Aid does come in a variety of flavors afterall!
both may have gotten sick, one might have died, but id bet anything the death wasnt from the vaccine.
None of which have anything to do with the CDC or Covid vaccine deaths. That’s called a red herring.
By the way 70lbs, how’s the Obamacare treating through this pandemic? Obamacare that I’m paying for you to be on…you socialist communist. You’re welcome.
Rut nut- that’s a good trick picturing me as you don’t even know what I look like. I prefer pads anyways.
Cheers. One popcorn with double butter please.
Correct, but it gives the impression that the China Joe administration will lie about anything if it fits the agenda.
You'll have to elaborate on the Obama care thing. My health insurance definitely sucks, but I'd be surprised to find out that you were paying for it.
Our Governor just extended her state of emergency powers for 60 more days, and put most of the populated areas in the state in the extreme risk lock down again as of today. The agency that regulates all business in the state is going to decide weather or not to make businesses enforcing the mask mandates, new air filtration rules for all businesses, and other rules permanent next week.
The American experiment of all the states creating their own rules is on full display. It should start becoming evident who got it right and who got it wrong.
I'm not overly confident my state will be "normal" anytime soon.
The amazing thing is that at the current rate, the "long term" complications of infection vs vaccination are so massively worse (natural infection being enormously worse) it's crazy... Similarly people act like infection is "healthier" than vaccination, which is a massive logical fallacy and factually incorrect.
Heck, even stuff that, I'll risk the assumption, MOST people reading this have or do use often, like Ibuprofen, Tylenol etc have a WORSE (considerably) rate of significant side effects than the vaccines available to us for COVID.
One could make a solid case that Chiropractic cervical adjustment has a strongly worse rate of serious complications like vertebral artery dissections... Actually, it's an easy case given the evidence available on that subject.
Then again, I'm growing a lizard tail, and my eyes glow when I walk past a 5g tower... Sooo...
I just wish
Far less than what my friends have said they experienced with mild cases.
If I grow a lizard tail later, maybe I can make some easy money in the circus.
Reality has slipped by a good percentage of Americans. It’s no surprise that percentage rate holds true with bowsiters too. I’m not talking about people who’ve received the vaccine. I’m talking about those that keep insinuating it’s the only humane approach. You know, for your fellow man.
The death rate, however exploited it is, shows a better chance of surviving Covid if contracted, then any activity we participate in. Yet, we have the shame stories of how awful it is some have to struggle to be in that category. By people who vote to kill a million Americans a year while defenseless in the womb. Can you cry wolf any louder? Have you fell and bumped your head while climbing up on your soap box?
I have zero issues with anyone’s choices on this vaccine. I’m happy for you where ever you stand. But, It’s beyond stupid to suggest the vaccine hasn’t killed people. When common aspirin does. Are people really that stupid? It appears so. Set back and read for the proof on that one.
It’s killed people. It’s going to kill more. But, it is a undeniable fact that we truly don’t know how severe it is because money and politics got involved a long time ago.
Instead, the community do gooders would line us all up and give us a shot. For everyone else’s good. While voting out right or declaring the murder of a baby who can’t fight for itself, as being a choice of the individual women. Against all humanity we know, and all morality we’ve been given by God himself. I’m shaking my head at this. If fundamentals are applied equally across the board to determine right versus wrong, these same people willingly double back against their humanity spill and cut their fellow mans throat in a second. The proof is on these pages.
For those that keep on insisting we must get vaccinated, Feel free to rebut with something besides the same old I’m doing it for my neighbor crap. Because proof dictates that’s not true at all.
But, keep the shameful stories coming. Keep on telling us how awful it is that some don’t choose your choice of reality. Or, the bloated science project being fed to us by people who truly don’t know much at all about this virus. It’s soul telling for sure.
the sun kills people. water kills people. it is equally beyond stupid to believe that a vaccine which has been approved by the FDA is going to kill people outside of what would be considered incidental.
But, stupid isn’t lack of faith in whether it’s safe based on medicinal terms. It’s believing the same groups that have blatantly lied to the American people for years and, are responsible for delivering that medicinal information, might just be fudging the truth.
Another example of blatant stupidity isn’t acknowledging at least that one example, of several reasons, for being wary of anything they offer.
Like great deals on coolers? ;-)
I personally can’t see the FDA, wanting to inject people to kill them.
I’ve taken the approach that there is no denying that “it” is working to get everyone into a safer position. Just think about if we didn’t even have one to use.
I’m also certain, as a society, we are not told everything. Highly doubt it in fact. But I’m also as certain that everyone wants this crap gone or at least under control.
You're playing the same game talking about the vaccine. Except instead of hurting people through their bank account, you're doing it with their life. And yes, you did it. If you wouldn't have posted the scam, I doubt so many on this site would've fallen for it. Do you think that someone might take your anti vac rhetoric seriously, not get the vaccine get sick and possibly die? I do. They did it with their money just days ago.
I respect your decision to not get vaccinated. Your call. But spreading false narratives and lies about it is stupid and irresponsible.
There are obviously people on here that will believe something they WANT to be true. How many hundreds of dollars did people have to scramble to save? Maybe the "good sale" thread was a way that you can see that you might not be in a position to post about coolers, let alone covid.
By the way, the medical professionals in the CDC… there isn’t 100% turnover when a new president is elected. Many have been there for decades through many presidencies. They have done amazing things to protect us. The CDC is made up of scientists who have dedicated themselves to improving health sciences. Condemning all of them for a very small few bad apples is as bad as defund the police philosophy. The exact same illogical thinking as 70lbs, TD, Hackbow, itshot, Rupe, and Woods Walker demonstrate here on a daily basis. They are just on the opposite end of the spectrum as Antifa but every bit as bad.
Comparing me to antifa...? If you knew anything about me you would know that is as far from the truth as me saying that you support (and I assume you don't)the cop that shot an unarmed woman in the halls of our Capitol. Or that you support the street thugs that ambush and kill police because they uphold the rule of law. You do remember the rule of law don't you? The side you support doesn't,...if that doesn't trouble you...nothing does.
I posted CDC data on Covid vaccine and deaths and you immediately used a red herring to discredit the CDC. Then your last response…I think they call that crawfishing.
I believe the shooting inside the capital was justified. I absolutely believe in the rule of law. Everyone that went beyond a barricade at the Capitol or went in should be arrested and put in prison with a 10 year minimum as they WERE BREAKING THE LAW.
Not entirely, but the irony is that he has frequently used the notion of "common sense" to question or deny medical recommendations and then recently demonstrated an egregious lack thereof.
As for spineless...You'll need to do better than that. Im a realist. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, and I'll question everything that affects my life, but you're pretty bold calling me spineless, when you defend and parrot the preaching of the democratic party.
I don’t parrot anything and I’m not a democrat. There is plenty I disagree with in the current administration. I belong to no party. I make up my own mind and have voted for Rs and Ds.
It appears you’re just one of those guys that thinks all Americans fit in one of two boxes…a binary thinker. And you don’t fit in either one yourself lol. Trumper on Obamacare…that’s a special kind of person.
The CDC or NIH or the host of other Nat Institutes did nothing for the Virus. In fact Fauci was expressly told "to end funding for Wuhan Lab studies under Obama". So Fauci at went around that funding order and had a friend in NY funnel the study monies to the Wuhan lab. That man has been head of many National Institutes for NIH where he was a good politician for getting more funding. Starting with Aids in 1984 and since has been a camera hound mainly. If this mans lips are moving he's selling something for funding and COVID was this mans dream for Power come true.
We have not heard the last of this little fellow. The future will shake this tree and we shall see what it reveals. Do the math 4.6 billion humans/ death from true Covid =99.8% survival rate. A very weak virus and pandemic. Panic and power grab for Fauci and GVT 100% effective.
KSflatlander's Link
The CDC is and always has been our first line of defense against new and deadly disease worldwide. Without them disease detection, identification, transmission, and treatment around the world would not be even close to proactive. Had we not followed CDC and NIH recommendations then the death toll from this pandemic would have been in the millions in the US.
Ever notice how the conspiracy idiots have nothing to back up there claim and always seek a scapegoat (like Fauci). Please tell me who was the president and boss of the CDC and NIH during this pandemic? When they go after the science and scientists baselessly…you should take a huge step back as it a prime indicator that fascism is involved.
D-Wad- use your brain and just do a little bit of fact checking and you might just live a happier life.
Unfreaking believable and terrifyingly scary…
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/fact_check_review/?dr=2017-10-22%20to%202021-05-02&all_time=1&foo=0&featId=25
70lbs/ when did I call you a liar?
First, apologies to Matt (Grey Ghost) for my somehow missing this thread and not chiming in as he indicated he thought I might in his 2/21 post. Working closely with ICU doctors since the onset of this pandemic has kept me hopping to put in mildly and I've had long stretches where I've pretty much been on call 24/7; that's ok as we've been able to mitigate some of the devastating consequences of COVID infections and I'll take some loss of sleep and the loss of anything resembling a social life any day of the week and twice on Sundays in trade.
Here's something I actually posted on a social media site at the behest of some friends and to address some of the mind-blowing lunacy I saw there. I hope this helps and will respond to any questions as quickly as I can; please feel free to send them.
COVID-19 was highly politicized from the onset for one glaringly obvious reason; it had the ability to do what none of the 23 dwarves (aka Democrat contenders for the nomination for POTUS) could do; defeat Donald Trump. Misinformation became the order of the day as statements he made were often published out of context while statements and actions he took that were positive were under-reported if not completely ignored.
Cases were tracked to miscast a pandemic as an impending apocalypse and the number of cases was a gross exaggeration of reality owing to the misuse of a highly sensitive confirmatory assay (PCR) as a screening test. Frightening statistics on severe outcomes (even with survival) and deaths were published as raw numbers absent any meaningful context, such as underlying chronic comorbidities that also predispose those same people to adverse outcomes, up to and including death from a myriad of common diseases that Americans have been numbed to, owing to their frequency.
The campaign of misinformation didn't stop there; we've seen a number of claims about vaccines that in an ordinary time would have quickly been consigned to the scrap heap. We have seen EUA (Emergency Use Authorization) portrayed as "pray it works or at least doesn't kill you", tracking chips that will monitor your every bowel movement (and all others) and questions about efficacy that are naive at best given the relatively short span of time we've had to assess their impact.
We've been told that even fully vaccinated individuals should still wear a mask, possibly long-term, though this flies in the face of principles of immunology.
So what do we know? Well, we know that immunity is a function of immunocompetence; each individual will determine how effective their immune response will be based on that foundation. This will be the same whether exposure is via vaccination or through natural exposure (infection). We know that in immunocompetent individuals there is a high likelihood of not only effective immunity but long-lasting immunity barring major antigenic variation in SARS-CoV-2 (mutation(s)). We know that as more strains are isolated they will be sequenced and we will have the ability to develop multivalent vaccines that may preclude the need for annual vaccinations.
Here's what I believe; I see no reason for fully vaccinated, immunocompetent individuals to wear a mask-period. How do you assess this immunocompetency? Very easily by simple antibody titer testing; those with high antibody titers aren't getting infected with the strain for which the vaccine was developed and barring major mutation(s) there not getting infected from any of the variants either. For those advancing the idea that such individuals may still be infectious I would remind them that infectivity is directly proportional to viral load; the individuals I've described will never develop anywhere near a high enough viral load to be infectious.
Here's what I know about the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine; across a broad spectrum of patient groups it performed exceptionally well and safely. On a personal note, my wife developed symptoms and tested positive for COVID on March 25th, 10 days after my second dose of the vaccine. It was likely she was shedding sufficient levels of virus to be infectious 3-5 days prior and I have been home, taking care of her without a mask on either of us every day since she first showed signs of symptoms.
She was concerned but I told her that the reality was that I was most likely immune and as she was shedding ahead of symptoms if I didn't show any symptoms within 3-5 days (by this past Saturday) it was highly unlikely I ever would. As the principles in development for the Moderna vaccine are the same as the Pfizer vaccine I have a similar level of confidence in that vaccine too.
Stay strong my friends, for this too shall pass.
Unless it was meant for someone else.
Jackaroo you sir have hit the bullseye.
KSflatlander's Link
D web- completely missed the bullseye due to the lack of any credible sources.
Thanks.
Here is what I took from you. COVID was/is highly politicized. Agree up to a point, but disagree the politics was all about getting rid of Trump, or at least someone needs to tell India he is no longer our president let alone the rest of the world that shut down. Plausible just as much to me is scientists over-reacted and got it wrong, and Dems true to form did not waste a crisis.
Second take away from your post, the two main vaccines are highly effective and not a control conspiracy. Agreed. Hopefully that will reach those prone to gobble up the nonsense scaring some away.
Third, a die hard conservative like yourself possessing knowledge most of us don’t, and you took both shots....hmmm. I will just leave it there.
Thanks again.
Yep, this pandemic is a fraud. No news here, move on.
Yep, this pandemic is a fraud. No news here, move on.
There are 30 police officers in Boston who make over $300 k/year. Michael F. Collins, the chancellor of UMass Medical School, tops the list with an income of $1.1 million.
Bottom line, federal pay isn't high compared to other jobs.
I believe things that I fact check from multiple credible sources. Which is obviously more than you do to find facts. You can’t see things on conspiracy theory, right wing nut, or FB posts then tell me to prove it’s not true. The burden is on you. So far you’re all BS. I think you are an alien…prove me wrong. See how that works?
Occum’s razor is a good start. I hate to tell you that there is no international cabal. I know this because it’s infinitely improbable to get that many people on the same page moving in the same direction. Hell, people can’t keep the most intimate family secrets anymore. That’s not to say there are bad people in all sectors of politics and media. However, i believe most people in this world are good.
But you keep eating up that conspiracy crap because you want to believe it. It’s as simple as that.
Frankly, your logic is dangerous and that’s how people get emerged in conspiracy theories.
"The truth is you have no idea what Fauci ,the single highest paid Government employee ,owns other than what you read. I doubt you have little if any idea how easy it is to hide such information behind trusts, shells and Llc’s Etc. "
"I said you have 0.0 evidence that he does or doesn’t."
No, you didn't SAY it. You IMPLIED that it MAY BE so, and offered NO proof, just an unsubstantiated smear. As if it means or proves a dam' thing. Hide behind vagueness and innuendo all you like, but I'll call it for what it is - 'weaseling' .
You mean “ immersed “ in conspiracy theories or are you saying they “emerged” as in birthed or were born into conspiracy theories? Which theories ? the fine people hoax, the insurrection, the most violent act since the civil war theory? How about the Russian hoax or maybe the Russians paid bounties on American soldiers in Afghanistan.
Jack, just trying to follow your logic here, can you point out just one time that you challenged someone posting a conservative thought and questioned their facts just once? I hope this doesn’t make me a fact checker who checks fact checkers, who checks other fact checkers;-)
Spot on Dana!
There you go. You imply condemnation of the CDC/NIH via Fauci. You also did the same in the post above.
It’s your illogical thought process. Constant talk about the rights of the constitution then scream your a free man. Then refuse to comply with authority granted to the federal government in the constitution. Advocate for free markets and conservatism then rail against private companies that may refuse service to you because you won’t get the vaccine. Don’t get the vaccine, I could care less but you can’t have it both ways.
Too bad he did not understand average citizens more, especially college educated and suburban women, he might still be President. Many think his poor handling of the COVID challenge early on sealed his fate, but trump doesn’t own a mirror so he and his disciples will keep blaming everyone else.
Just some...and they have cancelled you +10 times and you still don't get it.
RM hunter hit a key point which I think is worth noting. We have incredibly safe (FACT, not opinion) vaccines which work amazingly well. But nothing is perfect. 90-95% of whatever it is now, over 100million people just in the US vaccinated means even with that great efficacy, tens of thousands could still get sick, though MOST will be less sick than they would have been without it... that's not everyone.
So, one can do something very safe (vax) and massively reduce the odds they get sick and end up potentially with long haulers or potentially dying - or giving someone else those horrible fates... Likewise, until numbers really tank, you can wear a mask around other people to take care of others as well. (if anyone notes the "stanford study "I" read said masks hurt people and dont do anything" Ill pre emptively note that 1.) it wasnt a study it was a weakly done review paper, 2.) the author isnt at stanford nor work for the VA office he noted; 3.) the author cherry picked info from the sources he did use which generally misrepresented what they showed by fairly large margins... Said another way, he wrote a crappy term paper, published it in a journal known for posting antivaccine style BS and other predatory bogus papers for years, and "news" media of certain affiliation jumped on it and presented it as the end all be all "study" of masks... It wasnt, again, it was a crappy term paper - so if you read "masks" in my comments above and thought: "the Stanford paper said Will is full of crap"... Sorry, the "Stanford paper" isnt even from Stanford and literally has less value than a bin full of Charmin last May.)
I'm fine not wearing masks outside - I'm talking about indoor settings we all need to share like grocery stores. I digress though... Mostly I'm just excited to see this one hit 1000 and am waiting for the inevitable axe to fall on it.
I will absolutely thank the past admin for Operation Warp Speed. It was the right thing to do. Likewise, the former president taking the vaccine and his family taking it. Absolutely the right thing to do. The argument that other leadership wouldnt have done the same thing is totally bogus - we dont know. I just wish more folks would put their faith in the sound research and science which lead to warp speeds outcome - great vaccines... JUST LIKE President Trump when he took the shot's.
What I am interested in is being able to live my life as outlined in The Constitution with a fedgov constrained by the same.“
Hackbow- those are your words from this thread. The constitution gives the executive (in some instances) and the legislative branch the right to make public health mandates and laws. The Supreme Court also has the right by the constitution to make sure the laws are constitutional. States can make their own laws…as granted by the constitution. You said you refuse to wear a mask. If that is the case how do you work or do the necessary things to live? Have you not left your home for over a year? Or did you wear a mask even though you said here you would not? Because at least for some of the pandemic you were under a mask mandate.
Come on Hackbow…own it. Don’t stop now.
KSflatlander's Link
What everyone here is most familiar with when they see or hear "FDA Approved" (or cleared) is what's known as a 510k clearance. To obtain this a manufacturer conducts 3 phases of clinical trials, the culmination of which is Phase 3 (human) trials. Depending on the patient population sampled (and desired) this may take anywhere from 6-9 months, possibly longer. Safety and efficacy data are accumulated throughout this trial (safety data includes all adverse reactions regardless of severity) and eventually a "packet" is collated and submitted to the FDA for review. The FDA has up to 180 days to initiate this review and can either approve, send the submission back with questions or requests for additional data or they can reject the submission.
Because of how they are constructed 510k submissions will contain a greater body of data than what we are now all well acquainted with, the EUA or Emergency Use Authorization. What needs to be stressed is this is granted by the FDA under very similar guidelines to a 510k (safety & efficacy data); the difference is an EUA submits all available data (manufacturers want a 510k so they will continue to accumulate data).
An EUA is not absolute; the FDA can suspend or even revoke it based on a number of factors; unexpected adverse reactions or unacceptably high incidences of severe adverse reactions can result in a suspension (pause) or revocation. EUA's can, with sufficiently strong data gain full 510k approval. At present this is only my opinion but based on the data on the 2 mRNA vaccines (Pfizer & Moderna) I suspect they will eventually gain full 510k clearances.
There has also been a lot of commentary on these products not being vaccines; this is false. By every accepted definition they are vaccines; they either incorporate actual viral antigenic material (the J&J vaccine) or they use synthetic viral antigenic material (Pfizer, Moderna). They most definitely are not Doctor Smith's Miracle Cure-all elixir.
There has also been a lot of misinformation about immune status; on this front there is a lot of encouraging news; first, it appears the vaccines may confer long-lasting immunity and there has been demonstrated efficacy against the variants that have emerged. While it is prudent to maintain there may be a need for annual "boosters" (SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA virus and RNA viruses are inherently mutagenic) it is not an inevitability.
On the whole there is a lot more good news than bad and much of the bad centered on the holes in our healthcare system that were exposed by this pandemic. What is most important now is how we move forward; if we apply what we've learned we'll be much better prepared for the next novel pathogen.
I hope all here are and continue to be in good health and especially all of your loved ones. When all is said and done the petty squabbles that run hundreds of posts pale in comparison to the importance of family.
Stay well my friends.
From actual conversations with Ryan he has steadfastly held pro-life and pro 2A positions. He is right of center on economic issues, but not as right as me. He holds a Libertarian view on social issues.
Many of our conversations end with “we will have to agree to disagree” but I have always found Ryan to be respectful and well researched on his views.
As a Christian myself, he earns latitude with me just for his pro-life position. Maybe you both ought to try talking, just a suggestion that IMHO is an approach supported by the Christian ethos. The attack dog approach was rejected in the last election.
I wonder if there would have ever been a “greatest generation” had they all used your logic. All me-me-me and no us (Americans)?
By the way, I don’t own nor defend everything this administration, Democrats, or the left says and does. There are extreme idiots both on the loony left and right wing nut side. Both of which have perverted life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I don’t let any one party or a demagogue like Trump make blind my judgment or morals.
There was this preacher (if you can call him that) in KS that used religion to justify his hate. His name was Fred Phelps. You talk like him.
Really?... He called me a liar and then couldn't explain his own comment or its origin,...even after I showed him his quote!?
Good question; right now we can only be sure of the data as of today-we're seeing responses like your friends where people who were vaccinated during Phase 3 trials back in July & Aug still have high antibody titers.
There are a lot of factors involved; as I mentioned RNA viruses like SARS-CoV-2 (and Influenza) tend to mutate often as RNA isn't as stable as DNA. The key factor is where in the virus the mutation occurs. For example, the 2 mRNA viruses use a protein in the spike protein (how the virus attaches to receptor cells) to stimulate antibody production. The virus can mutate in even multiple locations but if none of them affect this protein the antibodies the vaccine promoted you to produce will continue to be effective.
This is what is encouraging in ongoing studies; there are signs of long-lasting immunity but we're a long way from getting comfortable with one shot (or 2 as the case may be) and done.
At 38 you're relatively low in terms of risk and might have even had the infection and only been asymptomatic or had symptoms so mild you barely noticed. I'm sure like most here you've herd the term "herd immunity"; there are 2 ways to achieve this, either by natural infection or through vaccination. A good number of people under 40 who have been tested for antibodies have been found to have them. If they offer an antibody test in your area (and they don't charge a small fortune for it (check first!) it might be worth your while to have it done.
Again, great question and thanks for asking!
Stay well.
LMAO!!! Are we really at the point of assessing each other for 'political correctness'? On whose 'scale' of values?
But if it matters to you, you can 'label' me as holding "a Libertarian view on social issues " also.
This thread is waaaaaay past the MHTL point. (More Heat Than Light.)
Dana, I agree with your point. I hope I made mine. Hack bow has pointed out his hatred for abortions on numerous occasions. His disagreement with Ryan on other issues prevents him from seeing where they agree. We need to build upon where we agree, not find reasons to perpetually fight.
I agree with those that keep saying/implying there is going to be a reckoning. What the extreme right here doesn’t yet see is that reckoning is going to be the vast middle majority finally standing up to the loony left and extreme right. Unlike what non-hunting readers of these threads may conclude about hunters, most belong to sane conservative ideology.
Biden is a liberal, but not such a boat-rocker as to invite the same level of disdain. Yet. If he over-reaches, there will be yet another backlash.
This country is far more 'centrist' on average than the extremists on either side care to believe. So they keep sending extreme candidates to the primaries and sometimes to office. Unwilling, unable and flat out afraid to even hold a dialogue with the opposition, lest 'the base' be angered. Actual working compromise? Not holding my breath.
We as a country no longer understand that 'politics is the art of the do-able' or 'a good compromise causes an equality of dis-satisfaction.' It's all-or-nothing, scorched earth and to hell with my opposition.
Exactly, and they are growing tired of both extreme sides.
I wouldn’t follow you any where. You have proven yourself a wanna be leader with zero credibility. You denigrate others continually for their low standards while you justify breaking the forum rules repeatedly for yourself. You are example of why myself and a growing number of fellow Americans see the extreme right as a threat of the same magnitude as the loony left. If you ever were in power you would behave the same way as you have here, justify any behavior including violating the Constitution to achieve an America you want and have convinced yourselves the FF would support any actions to achieve that dream. Yes, your ilk knows me, and they have promised to come for me. They and you are going to find out there are a lot more centrists with backbones than you estimate.
Anybody besides me remember this movie? One of the greats. Lot of quotes applicable to the later part of this thread.
I didn't accuse you of lying? What are you talking about?
Yes, yes I did. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy here. And, HFW doubled down on it by claiming I do it often. I bet Trump is hacking your Bowsite acct. To make you look like a crazy liberal!! We definitely need a visit from the "misinformation police", if anyone can stop the lies, its them! Lol! SMH!
The only one doubling down is you, and you just proved it with your ridiculous posts.
dwed, I am sure by now you have had both elbows and shoulders replaced from patting yourself on the back. Yep, I know real heroes I would follow, and they never say a word or drop names.
And yes, if a person is pro-life, for me that is more important than policy disagreements over what tax rates should be. Now go find some of that character that you evidently left in Panama and quit posting under false names. You do realize you proved you are Shawn with that post, so Ryan's guess was correct. Imagine that!
For honor, what say you?
SMH.....
I don’t know…things could be worse as my son could have turned out to be a pay day loan guy like JohnMC.
Insurrection. Laughable. It took one unarmed girl being killed to put it down. Nobody else killed. Yea that was a rough one
KS. YEP that is every fathers dream to have a gay successful son rather than just a successful son. If you can sell that you need to start selling beachfront real estate in Iowa
Carry on boys. Lmao!
And keep trying to whitewash January 6th. I see it with my own eyes. I’ve seen who has been arrested. QAnon idiots and right wing nuts. A complete embarrassment in front of the world. So yeah…to hell with anyone who participated in the Insurrection. Throw them on the other side of Trumps fence.
Why don’t you get off the internet and go sip some wine with your son as his boyfriend.
All jokes aside, I’m betting there’d be a little more civility. But, computer screen use breeds tough guys.
Ks rancher. Ksflatlander brought it up. Basically used his son as a show pony
You are right except for the fact that you had no correct information which makes you wrong
I'm done. Carry on.
You are correct, it is a stupid bet for Shawn to take because the man will either remain convicted or be convicted again because he is guilty. He offered a guilty plea before the trial, even he knows he is guilty. Did the same routine to a 14 year old a few years back. Why did this guy even have a badge still?
You are also correct about Jan6th not being much of an insurrection to put down. Justin has it right, lots of keyboard tough guys who showed up in DC and beat some cops but when just one returned fire we saw them turn and run. And now the Feds are getting cooperation from at least one in going after the OK leadership.
Your previous prediction that Chauvin followed his training certainly is not what came out in trial, and no the other officers did not all lie about that.
I have a close friend whose son is autistic. The son didn’t choose to be autistic. My friend still Ioves his son and knows he is a gift from God. Hope everyone gets the point.
How many times have we heard here that an officer was justified using deadly force because the perp refused to obey commands or the officer felt threatened and feared for their life? We have heard this often, especially when the perp has been a minority. What is different about this situation? She was white? She was a trump supporter?
There is a reason the officer is not going to be prosecuted, simply he was justified.
LMAO, that narrative shows what inept cowards were in charge of this. "We're here to show strength, but we don't want responsibility when things go sideways. We're smart but we were infiltrated because we're just that stupid that we had no opsec in place."
It would be comical except you got people killed.
I am not the one who needs to change sources. These were not Antifa or BLM thugs, that has been disproven, just part of the Big Lie.
You would have us believe you are connected with inside sources, based on what behavior we have witnessed the judgment of anyone feeding you information is suspect at minimum.
Sad to see you play the pity card as a WW, have never witnessed that before. But you appear to be a law and order guy, so follow the rules or get tossed, hero or not.
I wasn't there and don't know the details of what information the anonymous officer had, what directives he was given, etc..
Not a safe idea to be part of a mob breaking your way into a part of the Capitol.
I was just pointing out that he was not "returning fire". That term is used when someone has been fired upon.
Well guys, look, we did it. We got over 1K. An impressive milestone few threads have ever achieved - the 4 digit mark. Whoop Whoop!
Maybe we can get back to sone form of normalcy country wide. Hopefully this government, along with all world governments, will stop paying people to stay gone. So, by the middle of the year staple goods will be back on shelves in supplies needed and consumed by the masses. If not, we haven’t begin to see the hysteria the reaction to this is going to cause.
And bet on it, most of them had their cell phones turned on. Which means they've all been identified...
I knew what you meant, thanks. I chose those specific words remembering the Untouchables movie...”They put one of ours in the hospital, we put two of theirs in the morgue”. No doubt that mentality hasn’t died with some.
The senior officer that wrote the article in Army magazine regarding Russian and Chinese efforts to feed internal conflict between Americans to break us up, I don’t believe implied there were agents controlling the Capitol riots.
That’s just an FYI that my reading isn’t limited to what you think.
I am not condoning shooting scores of people, but do support appropriate tactics to quell violence against people and property in short order. Yes, our Congress men and women deserve to be protected, but no more so IMO than our citizens and their businesses.
But, when an unarmed white girl gets shot by a cop, after (illegally???) entering the Capitol building (which technically, is owned by the taxpayers)...those same media outlets paint it as an "insurrection".
Doesn't take a rocket scientist, to see what is going on in this Country!
The technical term for "telling only the convenient part of the truth" is 'slant'.
I can't believe this thread is still up top. . .
If it was a peaceful gathering…as you say…then why the “Headover, Helmet and Body Armor, bear spray?”
The right wing nuts are all about “rule of law” and “back the blue” until they are not…feel justified based on a LIE from a straight up con-man. Then those slogans are just that…cheap slogans.
Funny how none of the ~300 people arrested for January 6th were Antifa affiliated. I DO see a lot of Oath keepers and Proud Boys arrested though. Strange?
2nd Moderna shot last Friday. Good to go.
Warp speed helped speed the process by cutting tape and providing funding for some, but not cutting steps or safety review along the way.
I only see one…Sullivan.
volcomgti's Link
(And yeah, I got my two Pfizer phaser blasts. Bring on them Klingon War Germs ;-) )
Unrelated, but I'm a bit over 24 hours out from shot two. I can now shoot lasers from my eyes, and my strength increased 200 fold. I also made a phone call by thinking - that microchip is frigging fantastic! I never understood why everyone felt that the only DNA changes that could happen would be negative. (To be abundantly clear, mRNA vaccines dont even touch your DNA and basically live in a different state from a cellular perspective, so I'm just being a sarcastic snot and trying to make a joke here folks)
(Or is there a Colorado-only tartan for your flannel shirts? Clan MacDenver?)
Well look who is whining about private companies discriminating and refusing services against those not getting vaccines. I can image where he lands on buying a wedding cake in Colorado LMAO. How’s it feel trophyhill?
Ok, I don't expect you to read the originals in Mandarin, but where did you 'hear about' these documents?
TREESTANDWOLF's Link
Yep, more undocumented garbage.
“ Of the 145 million COVID-19 vaccine doses administered in the United States from Dec. 14, 2020 through March 29, 2021, “VAERS received 2,509 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.” Having reviewed “available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records,” the CDC found “no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths”
The absolute reality is, the CDC, the government or Fauci does not want to kill people. The “ shot” was to help “ prevent “ more deaths and is meant to help stop the deaths.
And ..... IT HAS. There is no denying that fact.
I’m out
https://sebastianrushworth.com/2021/05/09/update-on-ivermectin-for-covid-19/
Jonnock's Link
Exactly, with the lack of security that day, on purpose or not, had conservatives really wanted to over throw the govt it would have been bloody and quick.
Yes; the mRNA codes for a segment of a protein that makes up the spike protein that SARS-CoV-2 uses to attach to a receptor cell, the first critical step in viral replication. It is important to note that this is ALL the mRNA codes for; it cannot corrupt human DNA as has been circulated-not today, not tomorrow, not ever.
In immunocompetent individuals the mRNA vaccines have been shown to produce a robust immune response that data shows confers immunity up to at least the timeframe we've been accumulating data with a solid potential for that immunity to be long-lasting. There is also solid data to support these antibodies will cover emerging variant strains as well and this may preclude the need for annual boosters.
What should also be made clear is that discussions of annual boosters will continue as this is medically prudent at this moment; it would be the height of irresponsibility, given the inherent mutagenic tendencies of RNA viruses to discount that possibility as the data accumulation hasn't been years where we could responsibly make that call.
Pfizer has recently applied for full 510k clearance from the FDA and based on the data I've seen I fully expect this to be granted. Given the similar technology employed I suspect Moderna will follow with a submission of their own.
The mRNA technology is here to stay; it will have broad application in not only vaccine development but in other treatment modalities such as gene directed therapies for treating certain types of cancers for example.
I don't want anyone to assume I'm discounting the personal choice of vaccination or not nor am I casting any aspersions on those who choose not to. This is and should remain absent clear evidence of a public health risk a personal choice and it would behoove our Health watchdog organizations to disseminate data-supported information as opposed to politically driven hyperbole.
Headache started around 5 pm yesterday, woke up around 3am with pounding headache and could barely move. Headache and really achy body all day today. Wish I would have had today off work!
Where's the Bowsite liberal truth patrol on this one? C'mon KS, HFW,...tell us it ain't so!
Grasshopper's Link
I am a trump supporter who always cringed a little bit when he spoke. Fauci is worse then Trump, when he opens his mouth, something crazy and unbelievable is going to be said. Wouldn't he carry more weight if he stuck to disease?
The joke should be how do you tell if someone wearing a mask has been vaccinated...
The vaccine does not give somebody super powers that emits some kind of "shield of death" for the virus to keep it from entering them. Yes, even vaccinated you can still get the virus. The vaccine just gets your immune system up to the level of someone whose immunity is robust enough to fight it off with minimal symptoms which assumes everyone's immune system is equally compromised with a novel virus.
That's it and that's all.
same idiots that bought Cuomo's book.
So far, these vaccines are proving to result in more deaths, reactions, and health impacts than all other vaccines combined. Particularly in people younger than 50 and women.
These are just the acute issues.
Really worried about the chronic issues and how they will impact our society and civilization long term...
Not to mention, on a personal level, the longer term impacts to my family and friends that have made the decision to take one of these vaccines...
China - sanctions, restrictions on Chinese business influence in the USA or with US businesses, restrictions of property ownership in the US by Chinese interests.
I was at an event this past week and met a pulmonologist who has treated 100s of Covid patients. He maintains that the vaccine even if the side effects are real is safer than the side effects from Covid. The myocarditis abates after a few weeks. He’s currently treating a 22 yo soccer player who he says will have to be on supplemental oxygen for the rest of her life.
IdyllwildArcher's Link
Also, if anyone hasn't read the link, I recommend it. Some big questions asked that will probably never be answered. I'm sure if this virus originated in a Chinese lab and was released due to incompetence, that evidence has already been destroyed and any potential whistleblowers "dealt with."
Matt's Link
And yet far, far safer than getting COVID.
The reference to health impacts to women under 50 relates to TTS (blood clot disorder), which per the CDC has occurred in 32 cases out of 10.2 million doses (0.000314%) of the J&J vaccine.
From the linked article: "Over 285 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through May 24, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 4,863 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine."
While there has been no causal link established between the majority of those deaths and COVID vaccines, one should compare the # above to US COVID deaths. For 1/12/21 (just that one day), there were more than 4,400. So if it was determined that every person who took the vaccine and later died did so due to the vaccine, it would only slightly exceed the daily deaths at the peak.
If you have to rely on an immune response (the whole purpose to a vaccination) to kill a virus, then the CDC would be incorrect if their statements contradict mine on a vaccinated person still being able to catch the bug...
Taking the day with the highest number of deaths, to "statistically" justify the high death rate associated with the vaccine...how "leftist" of you, lol !
You are right, I should take the approach of the site conservatives and grab a number out of thin air that suits my purpose and proclaim it the gospel.
Helluva lot higher than the Flu Vaccine, I'll wager....
That nonsensical response has me wondering if Sleepy Joe joined Bowsite?
Did you even read the entire article?
Very smart to get the vaccine. You lived! And you will live going forward.
IdyllwildArcher's Link
IdyllwildArcher's Link
* No I don't really believe there was one.
What goes around *should* come around.
Everyone who has died from COVID contracted it from someone else, so it's not "only her body" in either case.
You speak of nothing more then your opinions. Great analogy nutsack.
https://www.windstream.net/news/read/article/newser-writer_with_longhaul_covid_dies_by_suicide-rnewsersyn
It's just as easy to say that, if you have a moral objection to abortion, don't have one.
Or if you are worried about being killed by a drunk driver, stay home and protect yourself because those who drink and drive intend to go out and live their lives regardless. Are you guys on board with that?
As stigmatizing as drunk driving is, it only kills ~10K Americans/year where COVID killed ~375K Americans in 2020.
It just seems some of you have a tremendous appreciation for life...right up until it inconveniences you in which case that goes out the window and then it is all about *your* personal liberty - and yours alone.
Matt's Link
"Almost a third of recovered COVID-19 patients in a UK study ended up back in the hospital within five months — and up to one in eight died of complications from the illness, according to a report."
You're absolutely right matt! Let's mask up and lock down indefinitely, just so those who live their lives in fear won't feel so lonely!
Bahahahaha!!!
We see this throughout the power hungry in Govt. Rest in His peace, but be aware.
Now I will hear some nutjob hyperbolically say 30 Billion people died. It is no joke blah blah blah
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/
You can’t make this up. Fiction writers wouldn’t even narrate a story with that much irony. But, here we are, Dana preaching to the world about doing the right thing. After preaching to the world it’s ok to support not doing the right thing concerning protecting the unborn.
...And how many of those were actually from COVID, and not just listed that way so the hospitals could make a quick buck?
How the f* do you figure THAT ?? Logic ain't your strong suit, is it?
Second, "If someone gets the China Virus after they had the choice to be vaccinated and dies that is their problem not some one else."
If they could have gotten vaccinated, but got sick AND INFECTED OTHER PEOPLE it dam' sure is other people's business. Or do you want to make the case for the right to be a g-d plague rat? Another one who flunked logic 101.
And how many people die from tobacco? Anyone who thinks money isn't power needs to remember that tobacco is still *legal*. Stupid af, but legal. I lost two friends this month from tobacco, one in a house fire and one from COPD.
Not everyone around 'him' may have had the *chance* to get vaccinated yet. But they'll get sick because he *refused* his chance.
PS, 'Miss'? Is that your idea of wit? You're only halfway there ;-)
Matt
Matt
In other words, masks, including N95, don't do diddly squat to prevent one from catching nor from spreading covid.
Still no shot for me and yet here I am, still kickin'. Now you all know to stay the hel l away from me because you might get infected..LOL
That unvaccinated-by-choice person could get sick and infect 50 other people (who are anxiously *waiting* to get jabbed) and 'who cares?' That unvaccinated-by-choice person could get sick and cost us all a quarter million in unpaid hospital/medical bills and 'who cares'?
Well crap, I’ll apologize ahead of time, not vaccinated and getting on a plane traveling to Montana next week. I promise I’ll wear my mask though
Going there in December for NFR. Can’t wait
50 is very misleading. At this point it would seem anyone who wants a vaccine has had ample opportunities to get it. If it was hard to get I don’t believe states would be giving out gift cards, free beers, free joints, free sports tickets, entries into million dollar lotteries ect.
It seems as if we should be at the point of personal responsibility.
I live in Oregon and have had both moderna shots as of may 12th. Over 68 percent of the state population has had at least one vaccine shot. Our governer still won’t give up her control. Our positive test numbers are plummeting, and a large majority of the positive cases are young people that the virus statistically has almost zero health risk.
When the science gives her an excuse to take power it’s immediate and urgent. When the science dictates her giving it up, it’s a whole different ball game. I believe we are on our 4th or 5th different version of what “metrics” we have to reach to have a normal life again. It changes and gets more complex along the way. Supposedly when 70 percent of the population in the state gets at least one shot, it’s back to normal.
We are at 68.7 percent now so we’ll see!
I’m sitting here in the hospital with my momma. It’s a non Covid related issue. But, they are running tests and such. I’ve had an opportunity to talk with 5 different nurses and a doctor concerning Covid cases.
All but one RN nurse has stated things are much better then a year ago. That the community is moving on with life. Etc…. However, the last RN went bonkers describing how bad it still was. People were sick still and that regardless of what the news had been saying It was still bad in the community and the United States.
I asked if they were venting any patients. She replied no. Hmmm? So I asked approximately how many cases they had seen this month. She put her chin in her hand, peered skyward while pondering and said, “ We’ve had 4 cases this month come through the ER.”
4 cases that required no ventilators. But, things are still bad. SMH. There is one in every group. Except this one. There’s several in it.
Now let me ask, is your standard of 'bad' = 'needs to be put on a ventilator'? No ventilator, no biggie?
And...there they are!
Here’s life 101. We are all going to die. We are all going to face unknowns concerning illness. This virus isn’t anything like you’ve played it to be. People have gotten sick and well over 99% got over it and moved on with life. That’s a fact. That’s what the numbers say even using an inflated death count to derive it from.
What else needs to be said? People died from it? Yep. People die of a lot of things known to be worse then this. In everyday life. Worse yet, people act as if they are being noble by wanting lockdowns, mandatory vaccinations, etc… for the greater good of society. Then defend murdering babies????? Did I miss something?
You literally can’t make this stuff up.
Instead of answering the question, attack the questioner. Classic 'ad hominem' fallacy. Awesome level of 'debate' here.
Whether a person decides to take it or not, there is no denying those risks still present no matter whether you contract the virus or are given a vaccine to help offset potential problems the virus may present if contracted. With that said, I simply cannot understand people who act as if life won’t go on unless everyone gets the shot.
Dana, I didn’t go off on a rant. I stated what you’ve posted. And, any person who argues for the vaccine from the stand point of betterment for humanity, kinda shoots a hole in their reasoning when they argue in favor of the biggest example of genocide known in history. Which is killing unborn babies. By choice. It simply doesn’t get any more straight forward then that.
Do, you take my posts how you want. I’ll continue to take yours for what they are.
if i was convinced that shot one gave me a heart attack, i damn sure wouldn't have gotten another one just like it. pretty sure your doctor felt the shot was the cause of your heart issue he would have recommended against the second shot too.
Shawn Magyar/Hrace/Hedge Hunter+ - How many time have you be cancelled here by you woke fellow bowhunters? It has to be over 10 LMAO!!!
Reports concerning deaths in elderly persons
Many of the elderly nursing home residents who have been vaccinated are very frail or terminally ill patients. It is therefore to be expected that deaths will occur with a temporal link to vaccination, without there necessarily being any causal link to the vaccine. The reports on many of these deaths in the elderly state that no link with vaccination is suspected, and that the death is being reported for the sake of completeness.
Reports of deaths of persons under the age of 60
As of 22 June 2021, four deaths have been reported of persons under the age of 60 after vaccination with Vaxzevria due to the very rare but serious adverse reaction, thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS). TTS is described above. Seven deaths have also been reported of persons under the age of 60 after vaccination, which are not related to this rare syndrome. The causal relationship with vaccination in these five cases is uncertain.“
The above is from your (Shawn Magyar/Hrace/Hedge Hunter, ect.) own source posted above. Your statements are false and fake. Did you even read your own source?
Skeleton Liberal? I’ve clearly stated multiple times that I’m liberal on social issues. If being liberal is opposite of you then absolutely.
Have you ever tried to think for yourself at anytime in your life? I mean like ever?
Nice try LMAO.
Why would I post a picture of myself with psycho idiots like you around?
Bowsite village idiot = Shawn Magyar.
Matt
You can't make this stuff up...
Using the numbers from Wordlometers, the COVID-19 case fatality rate in Norway is 0.61%. Accounting for the 3.7M doses administered as of the report you referenced, the adverse reaction rate is 0.31%. The rate of fatalities 0.04%. So, basically 2x as many people who get COVID die than have an adverse reaction and are 15x more likely to die from COVID than the vaccines. And that assumes everyone who got the vaccine and died did so because of the vaccine, which is not the case and further understates the relative safety of the vaccine versus the disease.
And again, people need to understand the concept of "all cause mortality." So that nothing is missed, just in case, all deaths are recorded after the vaccine, no matter if they had a heart attack or got hit by a bus.
People in nursing homes have a short life expectancy because they're generally very old and very frail.
When you compare all cause mortality from people who just got the COVID vaccine with the same size general population, the numbers are the same. Additionally, if you compare all cause mortality of a group of people who just got the COVID vaccine and people who just caught COVID, the COVID group has a much, much higher mortality rate.
Not at all, I referenced the *rate* of death from COVID and adverse events and deaths following vaccination (numerator [#]/denominator [#] = rate [%]). There is no assumption that the denominators are equal, and in fact they are very different.
And many officials believe that number is under-reported. But hey, you do you.
Isn't that the wonderful thing about America!? If you have common sense, there's nothing the government can do to take it away from you...unless you let them.
And? The vaccine is not 100% effective nor has anyone credible claimed that it is, just as no vaccines are 100% effective. Moreover, as the unvaccinated allow the virus opportunities to mutate, we face the potential the vaccines will become less effective over time. Don't let those who lack an understanding of science and math influence your decisions.
Honestly, you can’t make this stuff up. SMH
Umm, maybe because every year there's a new strain? I get a flu shot every year for the latest variant. And yeah, if they come up with a shot for this 'Delta' Covid that is coming on I will be front-and-center for it.
I'm not out to 'beat' the flu or Covid on a global scale, just trying to keep my very own arse above the dirt. But I'm pretty sure that the more people who get vaccinated, the fewer die of it. Science enough for me.
KSflatlander's Link
Good grief...stop being intellectually lazy and look it up. There is plenty of scientific peer reviewed research on this. And research is still being conducted to understand the rate of mutation of COVID.
What is your point? We can't "cure" for the flu; therefore, we should not seek cures for any viruses? That kind of logic will definitely cause SMH syndrome.
It will be a cold day in you know where before my kids get vaccinated for a virus that does nothing to them. Have you seen all of the studies where the lipid nano particles end up concentrated in just about every place they shouldn’t be? How about how up to 1% of the cells that take in the mRNA assimilate it into their DNA? These vaccines were never trialed on animals and if they were, they never would have been used people.
- Chuck Goetschel
For those who are ~17 months into this pandemic and haven't educated themselves on the simplest of things such as difference between the flu and COVID, the flu is caused by a variety of different viruses that mutate rapidly whereas COVID-19 is caused by a single virus which actually has a "proofreading" mechanism that reduces its rate of mutation. While much more transmissible than the flu, COVID is much better suited to be defended against by a vaccine.
Don’t know about those. But I CAN believe what I personally know to be true. There are many like this but here is the newest example: mid 50s MD in the Family Practice I go too. Only doctor of the 5 doctors that chose not to get a vaccine. No underlying medical issues. He is currently in ICU with Covid. Has been there for 20 days. Not sure if he will make it.
One of our US Senators is a MD and his Chief-of-Staff is a good friend of mine. Our Senator had no problem taking the vaccine.
I have read a number of articles recently (although admittedly have not looked at the data behind the articles) which indicate that those who have not taken the vaccine generally fall into a number of categories: white evangelicals, young (18-29), rural, republican, or low income ($50K> annual household income).
That is how science works. Perspectives change as new data is provided, which is to be expected with a novel virus. It is one thing to not understand science, but it is another thing all together to dismiss it because of a lack of understanding of what it is and how it works.
Covid flourishes in those who are metabolically unfit. Put garbage in, get garbage performance in return. If junk food didn't exist in the USA covid would be a non issue. I wish this was spoken about in the media.
The truth is no one knows why it doesn’t affect the 80 year old diabetic. Yet, nearly kills a 40 year old father of three who was in good health.
A healthy lifestyle is a huge benefit. For your whole life. No one is saying differently. And, while preexisting conditions of heart disease are definitely a factor, so is the age of the patient. Based on the stats, it is by far the leading variable.
You can’t cherry pick info. While you aren’ t, so many others are. If the science of all this means anything.
A correlation could certainly be made between age and or existing conditions. But, I’m not going to suggest the elderly needs to eat better. Exercise more, etc….
Anyways, we all seem to have an opinion. But, opinions seem to be useless and do nothing but add to the hysteria. If we are going to talk about science in combatting this, we should at least keep the certainty’s that we do know in mind. Instead of telling it like we think it is.
“ We don’t know, what we don’t know”
That much is true.. unfortunately.
Neither is 100% fool proof. So what? Getting vaccinated is easier than getting sick!
As for 'I had it and now I have anti-bodies,' ask anyone who had chicken pox as a child and shingles as an adult how much fun that is!
So, we now know that the vaccines don't prevent you from getting Covid. And they don't prevent you from spreading Covid. The only apparent benefit of the vaccines is they *may* reduce the severity of the symptoms, if you contract Covid, or may not. When I weigh the benefits against the potential adverse side affects of the vaccines, I'm not exactly anxious to get jabbed. My wife and I are still firmly in the "wait and see what shakes out" camp with respect to the vaccines.
Matt
I feel as though I’m lost in the middle. My family and I are vaccinated. A guy that I hunt with is a triathlete who got Covid and is a “long-hauler”. Eight months have passed and he still can’t go for a run. People we know have died.
But a family member who’s comorbidities led the family to believe that she wouldn’t make it out of the ICU is doing well.
We recognize that the vaccine has risk, like all vaccines. We did our risk assessment and made our choice.
We aren’t sheep. I don’t think those who have some concerns about the vaccine are idiots.
I’m not worried about microchips in the vaccine. I’m not wearing two pairs of gloves and two masks like a customer who was in here a couple of days ago. I’m inhabiting what is for me, the Goldilocks Zone.
I think this virus is dangerous. I think the government has overstepped its bounds.
I wish that people would take a deep breath, think rationally and refrain from screaming at each other.
I’m generally opposed to the government and employers being able to dictate health decisions... but I don’t have a problem with MMR and other vaccines being required for my kids to go to school and I don’t have a problem with the government dictating that smoking is prohibited in restaurants and bars.
I question the efficacy of masks and am tired of the stupid human tricks of sanitizing every surface at work, washing and sanitizing hands two hundred times a day and I don’t believe that my $0.29 per day investment in Vitamin D, Zinc, Vitamin C and NAC is some all encompassing panacea, but... despite dealing with the public daily as an “essential worker”, I have not had the flu or a cold in the last year and a half, nor has anyone in our family.
I don’t have all of the answers. I don’t have enough information. I don’t think anyone does. I don’t think that those who have made different choices are idiots or sheep... for the most part.
The far ends of the spectrum cause me to shake my head.
But... I’m used to holding positions that I feel are rational that others disagree with... I’m married.
When it’s brought up on TV and asked to experts that are on the talking head shows - most have little to say either way. The administration dismisses the subject and will not talk about it.
If you’ve had Covid and you have the t-cell and b-cell antibodies- then wouldn’t it stand to reason that you don’t need the vaccine?
Millions of people have had Covid and survived - if you add those folks to the vaccinated wouldn’t we be well past herd immunity numbers???
I liked it because it left the politics out and just stuck with science and research. Only downside I saw was that they could only go out 10 months from when you’ve had Covid. Hoping they complete another study shortly that would include a longer window. Their conclusion was that if you’ve had Covid, it made no statistical difference whether you got the vaccine or not as to your chances of getting Covid again.
This is where I am
People have gotten it and gotten it again. Antibodies from previous infection or protection via vaccination are not 100% guaranteed. What is? The question remains, what behavior lowers your risks? (Personally I don't think 'getting sick' is the *smart* option. I took the jabs.)
Freedom to make your own choice seems to get flushed down the tubes when Covid enters the discussion.
I’m certainly not anti vaccination. I‘ve got the antibodies and simply don’t need it. So, I have a hard time when people make statements about how those who didn’t get the shot is some how to blame for this virus still being around.
No science. No intelligence. Just mad because life isn’t normal anymore. I got news for those people. Life isn’t weird because of a shot. It’s weird because this has been blown into proportions that convince weak minded people we are all going to die if we don’t all get the shot. No matter what the science we do have says.
At this point, That’s beyond stupid. It’s careless. And, it’s reckless
Well thats not what the Cleveland Clinic study of 52,000 people showed. In FACT - not one person who had Covid - got it again- none....zero!
The people who were unvaccinated made up the most by far, and the folks that were vaccinated were also small percentage who got it again. But the folks who had Covid did NOT get it again.
Im not saying that study is the gospel - rather where are the additional studies on the matter since it involves a HUGE percentage of people and would be a game changer with respect to our herd immunity. I would also think that would be good news - however, the media chose not to cite the study when it came out and you have to dig for it. Also a bit weird...but understandable given the left owns the media.
Ive had Covid - and I have not been vaccinated. Im not anti-vax, but see no reason to get the vaccine since I now have the anti-bodies. From the limited studies Ive seen...Im better off with my natural anti-bodies than I would be getting the vaccine. If I can see scientific non-partisan proof stating otherwise I'll go get the vaccine the next day.
LOL, will be some empty planes. Employers will take ANYONE right now, has nothing to do with Vaccinated/unvaccinated, and everything to do with paying people to stay at home.
Great news for me. Cleveland Clinic already saved my life once in 2015. Corrected my 35 bpm heart to 60 with ablation & pacer. Basically cured me of atrial flutter. When I moved from Illinois to Indiana in 2018 and had to change all our medical services, I kept one and that was my cardiology team. I'll go with their recommendation on the Covid antibodies.
I had covid one year ago today and a recent test still showed antibodies,the jury is out on how long Humeral immunity lasts but CMI is lifelong in most diseases-we will see.
First and foremost my condolences on the loss of your wife's friend; regardless of the circumstances it's never easy to deal with. Without knowing the nature of her treatment(s) it's hard to say definitively what role they may have played in her death; some cancer treatments can be immunosuppressive and this could have both led to an ineffective vaccination and her contracting the disease.
Vaccination is not an exact science; we can't predict with certainty efficacy or reactions in a population as there are variables that include the vaccine itself and most importantly, the immune status of the recipient and of course, underlying comorbidities.
What we can say, and in particular about the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines is that in "normal, immunocompetent" people they can not only prevent severe illness and/or hospitalization they can prevent infection (as defined by having clinical manifestations of the disease).
I add the qualifier as one school of thought that seems to have garnered undue weight (owing perhaps to the hyper-politicized environment) is "not preventing infection." What's never offered to the general public is that you can qualify an infection as existing when there are detectable levels of a pathogen (in this case a virus) in a person. Further, there seems to be little information about "sub-clinical infection"; a situation in which you can measure levels of a pathogen but they are so low that the person does not display signs and symptoms of the disease (sometimes referred to as "asymptomatic infection").
By design a vaccine stimulates the immune system (again, assuming some level to full immunocompetence) and the immune system does not always respond in a perfectly favorable way. I'm sure you've kept up with recent comments in the media about Guillan-Barre syndrome in vaccinated individuals as well as other manifestations of an "improper" immune response to the vaccine. Unfortunately, at present this isn't always apparent when administering vaccines which in part is one reason for having a system to track adverse events. This is how we accumulate both long-term data on vaccines as well as develop modifications to lower these events. I know this offers small to no comfort to those who have suffered loss and I don't mean to minimize that in any way; we do get better but there are inevitably bumps along the way.
All this being said I still think the decision to vaccinate or not is one that should be made in concert with your personal physician and only when fully informed of the risks versus rewards. I've also advised that people who have been infected and recovered fully are very unlikely to derive any benefit from vaccination and it may actually be counterproductive to do so.
I hope this was somewhat helpful and again, my deepest sympathies for you and your wife.
The loss of my wife's friend was a real shocker. She was the first person in my wife's inner circle of close friends to pass. I also lost a close cousin to Covid. We also know of at least 3 friends who have suffered "improper immune responses" to the vaccine, all relating to sudden heart problems that developed shortly after being vaccinated.
It really seems to be a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation with respect to the vaccine. At times I've wished I would just get Covid, recover from it, and let my natural antibodies to their job. Of course, that approach has its own set of potentially dire risks, too.
Hopefully some day we can put these crazy times in our rear view mirror, and move on.
All the best to you and yours, my friend.
Matt
Agree with Mike. In my case I talked to my Doc and she said "get it Dan". She's very familiar with my history. So I got the 2 Pfizer shots.
Trivia: I feel lucky that I've had only 2 personal physicians in the last 35 years...#1 first 20 years in Tucson and now #2 in Minnesota. They both have been excellent, 2 fine Doctors that I have confidence in.. (I prefer female Doctors, more comfortable with them, just my preference)
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html
Thanks for the question; to be sure I answered you correctly I went back and re-read my post to confirm my initial comments about vaccinating individuals who had COVID-19 and recovered. What I felt is that first there is likely no need as recovery, especially a complete one is a solid indicator of an effective immune response and you wouldn't gain any additional benefit from a vaccine.
I added that it may be counterproductive for a number of reasons; first, for the reason I just described but second, while mRNA vaccines hold great potential they are a work in progress and although we have only seen very low percentages they have produced some unintended consequences. Why subject anyone to that risk, regardless of how small it may be if it's not clinically necessary to do so?
As someone posted earlier in this thread there is also, in addition to the humoral immunity piece (production of effective antibodies) a cell-mediated immune response that is very likely to confer long-lasting protection. One facet of auto-immune diseases are the development of an improper immune response in which "self" is no longer recognized and we produce an immune response that attacks our own cells (e.g. Guillan-Barre syndrome, lupus). Again, while very small, if there is any potential to produce this response it should be avoided without question.
If I created the impression that I thought the counterproductive nature was extensive I apologize for that impression; while very, very small it exists and as such I feel it wise to avoid even that small potential to do harm to individuals who have demonstrated an effective immune response to the virus already.
I hope this clears it up and again, thanks for asking a great question!
I would advise them to first have an antibody titer drawn; we're still learning about how long immunity (whether by natural means (infection and recovery) or vaccine) lasts; some studies suggest it could be long-lasting and even cover variants.
It's a simple test to run and I'd advise anyone that it's a good investment that may avoid the need for a vaccine. If their test came back either completely negative or with a very low titer then I'd advise them to get the vaccine.
Stay well!
I am tired of these facts not being talked about mainstream, mainstream only has two categories. Vaccinated and unvaccinated which isn't right. I have no interest in getting it and asked for closer loved ones.
People are going to get this vaccine and aren't even being told by their doctor to test for antibodies first etc.
For another variable to add, If you knew someone who wasn't warned/told and already received the first shot, would you recommend holding off on the second dose? What path forward from that point would you recommend? Thanks
spike78's Link
Not sure why it is so high there or what is going on, but I haven’t seen anything anything reported anywhere else like this.
Hopefully this isn’t a new trend.
Not sure how there could be such a strange anomaly in one very small location.
The scenario you describe is a tough call; not enough is known yet about how long after the initial dose a second dose would still be effective. Think of the first shot as "priming the pump" and the second as fully opening the spigot. The first shot gets a persons immune system to recognize the protein fragment and begin the production of antibodies, the second kicks antibody production into high gear.
Whether anyone administering the second dose would do so if the wait exceeded the recommendation is unlikely and no one really knows if restarting from the first dose will be a good option say, months or even a year later.
If the person were young, healthy and immunocompetent and they had serious reservations about the vaccine I'd advise them to consult with their physician and then decide whether or not to continue. I hold firm in that a poorly-informed choice is one no one should ever be forced to make; any decision that has the potential to adversely affect a persons health should always be as well-informed as possible.
I would strongly advise anyone who thinks they may have had the disease (even if the symptoms were very mild) to request an antibody test prior to getting vaccinated. This is a request that no ethical physician should refuse as all took an oath to "first do no harm."
Glad to hear you had a full recovery!
I would agree, the only problem with that - is the Government is moving to mandate vaccines regardless if you had Covid prior and have the antibodies. That's my issue with all this - WHY is this Administration not talking about people who had Covid and recovered. They refuse to acknowledge this HUGE group of people that in all likely hood have better immunity than those vaccinated. Also, as stated above if you have the natural immunity - you could be putting yourself in harms way by adding the vaccine to your body.
If you count the folks that have had Covid and recovered along with the folks that had vaccine - seems like we would be well past herd immunity, which would be a great thing. Since this Biden Admin refuses to talk about those folks that have natural immunity it makes one think this really isnt about defeating this disease.
Is it a vaccine?
The CDC combined COVID with influenza, pneumonia and other respiratory illnesses last year. The media reports all used that combined infection and fatality rate daily (until the election).
Is that being truthful by the CDC or the media?
The CDC released a study a year ago that indicated only 6-7% of the total deaths reported were from COVID. The rest were with COVID... That report was pulled within a week of posting. Another study indicates that the chance of dying from COVID with 0 to 1 co-morbidities is 0.3%.
Why are these studies being covered up by the MSM?
The PCR test procedure and baselines that have been used to call a test positive for COVID are now being recalled. A “COVID-19” virus has not been isolated, much less any “beta, kappa, delta, etc,etc” variant.
Shouldn’t this be headline news?
The CDC’s VAERS website is showing some shocking numbers for adverse reactions and deaths from the shots. Based on all the rhetoric, these numbers are likely extremely under reported. Those are just the acute symptoms.
What is going to happen in 2 to 10 years?
What is going to happen to the children of those who were injected?
What is in these shots?
Why are certain groups in the government and employers pushing them so hard?
There are safe, effective treatments that have been around for many years that have proven to be effective for COVID and other respiratory diseases.
Why would anyone get the shot?
Tavis for the win. Makes absolutely zero sense to me to get a shot of unknown consequences when it’s been steadily proven remedies exist that are very effective at treating the virus.
It’s no difference in choosing neck exercises if you have a headache Versus ibuprofen. Both work. Except one is likely safer because it doesn’t expose your stomach lining, your liver and kidneys, or your heart to a drug.
Can you still get Covid after the vaccine ? Yes, but it’s usually mild to moderate . Severe disease after vaccination which includes hospitalization and/or death is statistically still low unless there are bad underlying diseases and/or immune compromised
I have read the one story Spike 78 posted where 74 percent of people in a one week period(274 out of 468) in one town (Cape Cod) tested positive for Covid, not hospitalized.
If there’s some more info out there I would love to read it. Unfortunately when studies or info come out against the governments current narrative, the seem to disappear quickly.
Mike in CT seems to have deep knowledge of this subject, and everything he has posted seems like logical info/advice to me that is trustworthy. If you have time Mike, I would love to hear you thoughts on the Cape Cod incident, and if the American vaccines appear to be working as they are supposed to in your opinion (95 percent effective) with the current data.
It is very concerning when the government “experts” repeatedly talk in circles, and can’t answer direct specific questions about these current variants, and vaccine effectiveness.
Is it elk season yet!
As you raised many points and questions that I'm sure are on many minds here I'm going to try and address all of them:
"In countries and areas with high rates of injection in the population, more than 75% of the hospitalizations for “COVID” are now “fully vaccinated” people. If you can still get “COVID” after the shot - and you can still pass “COVID” after the shot… Is it a vaccine?"
First, yes this is a vaccine and in all of the well-constructed studies I've seen, including the EUA submission data it is highly effective in an immunocompetent population. As to reinfection among this vaccinated population I point to the above qualifier "immunocompetent"; as many of the initial vaccinations were given to high risk populations it should be a given that this population is also the most likely to have a failure rate. "Fully vaccinated" should never be confused with "immune"; they are two very different conditions.
So why vaccinate a group knowing the above? You vaccinate this group because using the risk versus reward approach they are the most likely group to suffer the most severe symptoms and accrue the highest fatality rate. Human considerations aside, the cost burden to our health system would be staggering if we did not at least attempt to prevent these infections or at least minimize their severity.
"The CDC combined COVID with influenza, pneumonia and other respiratory illnesses last year. The media reports all used that combined infection and fatality rate daily (until the election)."
As this was a novel pathogen the CDC did their best to construct a test with a decent likelihood of detecting it; in an ideal world this approach would never have been used and the EUA for the initial CDC kit has been withdrawn due to documented poor performance. Early statistics were definitely skewed and painted an inaccurate picture that only exacerbated misgivings in the public. There is no doubt that certain sections of the political population and the media hyped those misleading statistics for their personal benefit, further widening the trust gap between the public, politicians and worst of all, the medical/scientific community.
"Is that being truthful by the CDC or the media?"
No, and it's my opinion that those who advanced a false narrative in the medical/scientific community should face the greatest criticism; they absolutely knew that much of what was being sold to the public was a bald-faced lie.
"The CDC released a study a year ago that indicated only 6-7% of the total deaths reported were from COVID. The rest were with COVID... That report was pulled within a week of posting. Another study indicates that the chance of dying from COVID with 0 to 1 co-morbidities is 0.3%.
Why are these studies being covered up by the MSM?"
In epidemiological publications (tracking disease statistics) there are two common qualifiers, "CC" and "MCC" (complications and co-morbidities and major complications and co-morbidities) routinely added to a final diagnosis. In many instances these were omitted when reporting COVID-19 deaths and as pointed out above, failed to distinguish those who definitely died FROM COVID-19 as opposed to those who died WITH COVID-19.
This is inexcusable and again points to the hyper-politicization of this pandemic.
"The PCR test procedure and baselines that have been used to call a test positive for COVID are now being recalled. A “COVID-19” virus has not been isolated, much less any “beta, kappa, delta, etc,etc” variant."
I believe there are a total of 3 PCR tests that have had their EUA revoked; dozens of PCR assays are still in routine use and I know of at least one that has received full 510k (FDA) clearance. Early on I pointed out that the testing approach was ass-backwards; the purpose of a screening test is to rule out infection and for this you want a highly specific, less sensitive test. The PCR test was far too sensitive for this purpose and generated a lot of false positives as it detected viral fragments. Viral fragments can be present for months after a person has cleared an infection; it wasn't that the test was wrong, it did exactly what it was designed to do-detect viral fragments. What was wrong was the misuse of the test. A PCR test should be used to CONFIRM a less sensitive screening test; the purpose of a screening test is to rule out infection; a PCR assay is used to DIAGNOSE a positive screening test.
A COVID-19 virus hasn't been isolated as this is the disease and not the causal agent. SARS-CoV-2 has been isolated and sequenced and is a member of the Coronoviridae, a family of RNA respiratory viruses that can cause, among other things, mild upper respiratory tract infections. There are definitely variants of the original parent strain; this is not only normal but expected in any RNA virus as they are inherently mutagenic.
"Shouldn’t this be headline news?"
Absolutely-see above.
"The CDC’s VAERS website is showing some shocking numbers for adverse reactions and deaths from the shots. Based on all the rhetoric, these numbers are likely extremely under reported. Those are just the acute symptoms."
The VAERS system is a voluntary reporting system that unfortunately, though well-intentioned has serious flaws, not the least of which is the reporting precedes confirmation, either through diagnostic testing or confirmation by autopsy.
"What is going to happen in 2 to 10 years?"
Hopefully we'll learn from the many mistakes made during this pandemic and make necessary changes and improvements.
"What is going to happen to the children of those who were injected?"
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here; there is no evidence of any passage of virus from parent to child from being vaccinated and there is little risk in this demographic absent significant underlying factors.
"What is in these shots?"
The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines use mRNA to deliver a fragment of the spike protein, other vaccines (J&J, NovaVax) use an ordinary Adenovirus (another respiratory virus and the cause of about 85% of the cases of pharyngitis (sore throat)). There have been many misconceptions and outright lies told about the mRNA vaccines; the technology has been around for over 40 years and the application for vaccine use is what's recent. Like any new medical application there will be risks and as we learn more they will be minimized. The data submitted by the 2 manufacturers for the EUA was actually more robust than some 510k submissions and ongoing studies show efficacy against the variants.
"Why are certain groups in the government and employers pushing them so hard?"
I can echo the "party line" which does have some merit and add that a responsible approach to pandemic management would be to a)sequester only the most vulnerable and b)allow infection to develop in the healthy, immunocompetent population while a vaccine is developed for the first group. This is a sound approach to achieve herd immunity (via natural (infection and recovery) and artificial (vaccination) immunity. Sequestering an entire population was counterproductive to this goal.
"There are safe, effective treatments that have been around for many years that have proven to be effective for COVID and other respiratory diseases."
No question; again, the politicization of the pandemic drowned out reason; HCQ was a great example of an effective treatment when properly administered. All of the early studies showing it to be ineffective were fatally flawed; it's mechanism of action is to inhibit viral replication; the studies I mentioned gave it late onset when the horse was well out of the barn. Later studies in which it was given early showed very good results. The demonization of those who correctly championed existing treatment options was criminal in my opinion.
"Why would anyone get the shot?"
As I've stated many times this is a decision that should be made in concert with a physician you trust and armed with all of the available information. The data I've seen on the two mRNA vaccines showed them to be safe and effective. Side effects and even severe adverse reactions are, at least for now an unavoidable reality, especially when working with a system (the immune system) known to malfunction at times. This is why I am not in favor of mandatory vaccination; it should always be a personal choice made in concert with a trusted physician.
Those advocating that mandatory vaccination is necessary ignore basic realities of good infection control practices; prevention of acquisition and spread is possible absent vaccination. Hospitals and medical clearinghouses have been using these practices for decades so we're not asking the impossible or even the difficult.
Apologies for the length of the post but many good, valid points were brought up that I thought deserved the best explanation I could provide.
Stay well all.
Although I have many more questions and am continuing to seek the truth, I will not post more on this thread.
I wholeheartedly hope, for all our sakes, that the USA and the world can get over the FEAR, we can reclaim our God Given Rights, the shots are not mass depopulation tools, and we never allow this kind of totalitarian reaction to happen again.
Lots of great information
Bowfreak's Link
Where did you get this information? Every study I've read indicates the exact opposite. There are isolated anomalies, like in Cape Cod. But, overall it appears at least 90% of new Covid cases/hospitalizations are unvaccinated people.
Matt
This is demonstrably false. By a wide margin.
bigeasygator's Link
Almost all (more than 9 in 10) COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations, and deaths have occurred among people who are unvaccinated or not yet fully vaccinated, in those states reporting breakthrough data (see Figure 2). - The reported share of COVID-19 cases among those not fully vaccinated ranged from 92.02% in Oklahoma to 99.85% Connecticut. - The share of hospitalizations among those with COVID-19 who are not fully vaccinated ranged from in 95.02% in Alaska to 99.93% in New Jersey. (Note: Hospitalization may or may not have been due to COVID-19.) - The share of deaths among people with COVID-19 who are not fully vaccinated ranged from to 96.91% in Montana to 99.91% in New Jersey. (Note: Deaths may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)
I hear you, I too have become skeptical of much of the news reporting. But there's a difference between being skeptical and spreading out right misinformation like Old Bows comment.
Did you read Bowfreaks link? It appears to be from a reputable and unbiased source. Here's the first paragraph:
"While COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective at preventing severe disease, hospitalization, and death from COVID-19 and also reduce the likelihood of mild or asymptomatic infection, a small share of fully vaccinated individuals do become infected, and some become hospitalized or have died. These rare occurrences are known as “breakthrough cases” which are to be expected, and historically known to occur with other vaccines as none is 100% effective."
They go on to explain that 25 states track and report these "breakthrough cases". The data collected from those states shows that less than 1% of new Covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are from fully vaccinated people.
Matt
Hopefully, they did a better job at compiling the data then they did talking about it.
Mike in CT's Link
I hope this helps.....
Sadly the claim that PCR tests are being run at different rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated persons has been widely circulated and it's wildly inaccurate. It is true that the CDC did recommend lowering the Ct (cycle threshold) as initial testing ran through too many cycles and as you stated produced far too many false positive results.
Where the CDC has recommend varying the Ct is when performing genomic sequencing, something done to characterize the virus isolated by strain. This is how, for example we know the prevalence of the Delta variant in states such as Florida. This testing is also only performed on patient samples that have already tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 by PCR.
Another inaccurate rumor making the rounds is that asymptomatic or mild cases are no longer being reported; this too is false as COVID-19 is listed as a reportable disease and therefore ALL positives must be reported by law.
There isn't any need to manipulate the data to make the vaccines performance (most notably the 2 mRNA vaccines); the data submitted for the EUA and the ongoing data compiled for the 510k (full FDA clearance) have shown them to be highly effective.
If the politics stayed out of this pandemic and we had an honest press we'd be so much better off it's unimaginable; I've been in the infectious disease arena for over 30 years and I've never seen anything remotely close to what's been going on since day 1.
Stay well and thanks for the question.
I don't know enough about it to form an opinion one way or another.
Do you have a link to the data that shows "most Covid cases now are people who have been fully vaccinated?"
Matt
- Breakthrough cases have only affected .01% of individuals that have been fully vaccinated. Per the CDC, 99.99% of vaccinated individuals have not contracted COVID.
- The share of COVID cases from individuals that are not fully vaccinated is somewhere around 92-99.9% of all reported cases
- The share of hospitalizations from COVID cases from individuals not fully vaccinated is in the neighborhood of 95-99.9%
- Lastly, the percentage of COVID deaths coming from individuals not fully vaccinated is 97-99.9%
So you're sticking with "most Covid cases now are people who have been fully vaccinated"? LOL! You should stick with what you know, which seems to be painfully little about Covid.
Matt
Mike in CT's Link
To begin with any medical device or product that is either 510k (full FDA clearance) or EUA is required by law to list all components that go into the final product. Additionally there is a wealth of information (see link) on "what's in the vaccines". The link also dispels some myths and misconceptions well and in case anyone is interested Hackensack-Meridian Health is a large and well-respected hospital network in NJ.
"Humans are just guinea pigs."
There's actually some truth to that statement; as with any vaccine, antibiotic or pharmacological agent being developed humans are a vital test population (Phase 3 or Human Clinical Trials). It's by this route that we've eliminated many childhood diseases and brought others under control. It's how we've developed the means to combat multi-drug resistant bacteria and it's how we're making advances, almost by the day in the treatment of cancer and diseases like diabetes.
Safety is paramount in these trials and I can personally attest to some agents that were pulled because of unacceptable performance in this area. The vaccines performed very well and all indications are the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine will receive 510k clearance, possibly before the end of this year.
If the data I've reviewed caused me any doubts I'd be the first person to point them out and advise strongly against vaccination. With the high quality of the data I've seen I do recommend getting vaccinated but only after you arm yourself with all of the facts and consult with a trusted physician.
If you're looking for facts in the mainstream media or, God forbid, Washington D.C. you're looking in the wrong places.
But sadly a large number of Americans are skeptical of the medical establishment and its health-related advisories. I find this unfortunate....but definitely true. I won't try to address the reasons as I see them, but I know some people feel a serious degree of mistrust in medicine. Here's a quick example:
My longtime friend and doc retired a few years ago. 'The system' assigned a new doc to me and I went in for a general get-acquainted physical. This guy was boorish and aggressive in asserting his medical opinions to me. In 15 minutes he found about 6 things he didn't like, and began ordering a battery of tests. He ordered a pneumovax vaccine for me and told me it wasn't optional if I was to remain his patient. While palpating my abdomen he started talking about feeling a pulsating mass and suddenly 'we' needed to rule out an AAA...(abdominal aortic aneurysm)....stat abdominal ultrasound. And so it went. Of course there wasn't a damned thing wrong with me and all the tests came back fine. When I questioned his approach to medicine (my right) he got defensive and indignant. On exiting the clinic, I declined to schedule a 'strongly advised' return appointment. When surveyed later by the clinic, I kept it straight and strong....told them how I saw it as a new patient and someone with a modicum of experience dealing with people. I wouldn't trust this guy with a dead horse. And remarkably....he was gone from that clinic within 2 months.
My current practitioner is a CNP and she's got loads of experience, plus a wise demeanor.
The devil is indeed in the details, considering 7,000 staff members work at the hospitals in question. My guess is that there is a high percentage of them vaccinated, as this is generally the case amongst frontline workers. If 80% of the staff was vaccinated, your infection rate of breakthrough cases would be somewhere around 3% with this population of people. Much higher than the national average but still a very low percentage of individuals when taking the number of staff as a whole.
I'll take advantage of your question to explain a distinction that I don't think the general public is being aided in understanding; "fully vaccinated" simply means that someone has had the recommended number of doses of a vaccine and the requisite timeframe since the final dose has passed. It should never be taken as an absolute that "fully vaccinated" automatically equals "immune".
Immunity varies in a population and certain factors can impact immune status negatively, age being one and a variety of underlying conditions and/or co-morbidities. I have no doubt that a good percentage of "fully vaccinated" individuals being hospitalized or dying fall into this category.
Another distinction not being made well enough (and sometimes not at all) is the difference between symptomatic infection and sub-clinical (or asymptomatic infection). As COVID-19 is a reportable disease every positive test must be reported and these numbers are counted as "infections"; only a thorough epidemiological review will reveal what percent were symptomatic (and the severity of those symptoms) and which ones were asymptomatic. To try and give a simple example of the distinction a campfire and a 4-alarm blaze are both "fires" but I'm sure most will agree only one presents cause for immediate concern.
Mike in CT's Link
Glad to hear you recovered! Given your age and the fact that you've recovered well I'd say it's very likely you have protective antibodies and vaccination is likely not necessary. Moreover, even though the risk is very small for adverse effects before taking that minimal risk I'd advise you to get an antibody test (there are some very good ones and the link lists them as well as other good information) first.
Don't be surprised if you ask your doctor to order the test and they caution you about them not being reliable and giving false positives; sadly, while there are some very good antibody tests for SARS-CoV-2 they are some that aren't and the link will give you the ones you'd want to have done.
If you have any questions about any of the information please feel free to either post a question or questions or shoot me a PM.
Stay well!
You almost seem hopeful for the scenario you described. Is that true?
Matt
Seeing this makes it hard for me to believe the MSM (and BowLib) narrative, that the "unvaccinated" are the ones spreading this Delta Variant.
But, "Follow the Science" ;^)
To increase your likelihood to survive the illness so you can live longer to pay more taxes is why government is pushing it. They do not care about your wellbeing...
KSflatlander's Link
But it hasn’t been done in secret. They’ve explained why they’ve made such changes whenever updates are made. And the organization's website specifically says that the information on the page could change and evolve over time.“
As with most of his posts, “gullible“ comes to mind.
I think Mike from CT recommend NOT to get COVID information from SOCIAL MEDIA.
Why, KSLiblander...are you calling me out?
"I think Mike from CT recommend NOT to get COVID information from SOCIAL MEDIA".
But, as always...you cite mainstream media (ABC) as "truth", to counter, lol !
Did I say that the WHO had "secretly" made this change? That wasn't the point.
One of the main points, is that WHO and CDC have discounted natural immunity. Your article conveniently avoids that omission by the WHO, in the later revisions. It's been morphed into "vaccine is the only way".
Antibodies are antibodies, whether manifested by vaccine or disease. I'm sure Mike would agree with that statement.
Their "experts" are pocket bureaucrats...
spike78's Link
need some levity here
award winning actor and nursing home slayer's curtain call.....
Mike in CT's Link
Yes, I would most definitely agree that antibodies are antibodies, whether derived from naturally acquired means or via vaccination. I've read too much recently about those in the field who question whether we can mount an effective immune response to a novel pathogen; I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I hear this coming from "experts"; when one recovers from an infection it is because that persons body has mounted an effective immune response (either antibody or cell-mediated) and cleared the pathogen.
Absent an effective immune response (in the case of COVID-19) the virus continues to replicate, infects more cells, symptoms worsen, multi-organ failure likely ensues and the patient dies. To postulate that recovered individuals lack immunity is as absurd as offering that Calvin really did build a transmogrifier (for Calvin & Hobbes fans).
Spike, the % of COVID-19 cases that arise in fully vaccinated individuals is actually lwell below 1%, ranging from 0.01% in CT to 0.29% in Alaska (see link). Absent context the pockets of breakthrough infection (such as in Provincetown, MA) sound like much more than the microscopic blips they truly are. To provide still more context as of the end of July in the US over 163 million people had been fully vaccinated. Add all the clusters together and divide them by that number; there isn't a fire; hell, there isn't enough to produce the head on one match from these clusters.
Calm down, take a breath and this too shall pass.
That is just an opinion. But, I don’t think it’s an off base theory. If the virus did that to these people, I think it’s safe to assume the rest of us are in the same boat until given valid reasons we aren’t.
Of course the present narrative is the unvaccinated are endangering the vaccinated. And, unless politics has left the Covid playing field, it won’t be long before we are told the unvaccinated made those vaccinated sick.
If that turns out to be truth, you’ll never convince the unvaccinated of that. Because of the political show this whole debacle has become.
And, to be clear, I’m not knocking Mike. I’m just telling it like it appears.
What if you get the vaccine, and die anyway? Are you still stupid, or just another statistic?
Asking for a friend.
You are more than likely extraordinarily unlucky. Like getting hit by lightning unlucky. Or dying in a plane crash unlucky.
The reality is ICU beds are full or nearly full in the surrounding area I live. Hospitals do not have the staff to deal with the patient count and the staff that is working is mentally, physically, and emotionally exhausted. non-COVID patients are not receiving adequate medical care because hospitals do not have the capacity to deal with them as that capacity has been eaten up by COVID patients. This is the reality.
Beyond that, the longer we continue to allow this virus to spread and mutate, the more variants we're going to deal with. Delta will just be the first, and with them more and more complications in terms of putting this pandemic behind us.
So I'm with Newfi, unless you have a valid reason to not get the vaccine as relayed to you by your physician, I think you're stupid as well.
Just curious, because I personally know 14 fully vaccinated individuals, who have full blown Covid right now (all tested positive).
So why aren't guys raising hell about all of these illegal aliens that are being welcomed with open arms?Despite the fact that a lot of them have symptoms, yet none of them are required to get vaccinated, and China Joe is spreading them across the country in shotgun format.
Where does the stupidity land there? Does it fall on the illegals, or does China Joe accept it? Or is it only the non-vaccinated American citizens that are stupid? It's very confusing!
Covid kills almost exclusively old people. Why? because their immune systems are on red alert because they have inflammation causing conditions like heart disease , obesity Etc. That means their system is loaded with cytokines. About a week to 10 days after acquiring Covid a cytokine storm hits the infected as the body attempts to repel Covid. If you are already packing an extra load of cytokines your system is overloaded. At this point the Dr. starts using steroids to combat this effect. That raises your blood sugars to very high levels which become immune suppressant. The body is simply overwhelmed and you die.
Younger people that have conditions that cause inflammation can suffer the same fate. If you are fat you have elevated cytokines because fat triggers inflammation in the human body.
Because that's a gigantic red herring. Illegal immigrants are not being "welcomed with open arms."
Ok, regardless of if the are welcomed or not... they're still pouring a cross the border unchecked. Why is that ok?? Or did China Joe tell you that it's just 'misinformation'?
bigeasygator's Link
If it were true, it would not be okay. Again, it's completely untrue. I take it you haven't looked at the data and trends on border encounters and border apprehensions? More people being stopped at the border and prevented entry into this country now than anytime in the last four years.
However, I am smart enough to understand prevention is the best way to success. In anything. Especially the border. The last administration saw things the same way. Which is why not nearly as many people were trying to cross over that time frame.
But hey, let’s cherry pick a bit of info and argue our case.
.
Bowfreak's Link
"Customs and Border Protection encountered more than 200,000 individuals at the southern border in July, reaching a number not seen in two decades, according to preliminary figures referenced by a senior Department of Homeland Security official in a court filing Monday."
Good. Start with the "Vaccine Mandates" down there (see how well it works), and leave Freedom to the legal Citizens!
Who voted for this joker again...?
No one is defending illegal immigration. The only people bringing it up are those that are perpetuating the myth that we have open borders (we don’t) and that illegal immigration is contributing in a meaningful way to the perpetuation of the pandemic (it isn’t). The fact (some people struggle with that word) is that more border apprehensions are taking place and more people are being prevented from crossing into this country illegally now than at any time in the recent past, as it should be. That is why this line of logic is nothing more than a giant red herring.
Why should us citizens have to PAY to vaccinate them and then house and care for ILLEGALS
Bulls**t bigeasy!!...prove it... Show us proof that the border is closed, and nobody is coming in. While you're at it, debunk the myth that Camel-toe harris has ignored the border issue since she slithered into her position.
The term "red herring", ranks right up there with the term "systemic racism". It just the lefties way of disputing a claim with no credible evidence.
Stop moving the goal posts. The border has NEVER been closed if your benchmark is no one coming across. The FACT is there are more border detainments and deportations now than at any time in the last three years. How on Earth does that jive with “open borders” and “welcoming illegal immigrants with open arms?” Biden extended Title 42. CBP border encounters are at nearly a decade high. We. Don’t. Have. Open. Borders. And this has little to nothing to do with the disaster that is the pandemic. But it’s no surprise that the crowd that thinks vaccines won’t help thinks the problem is illegal immigration. SMH.
sorry, can't find the latest govt produced stats to prove it but with.an.incomplete.border.wall.we.most.certainly. g.d. do.
A couple of conclusions that I've made.... There's already a large percentage of the population that refuses to get vaccinated and always will. Why? There are many reasons. Some because of the misinformation on the internet sewer, some that don't trust medicine, some that listened to Biden & Kamala saying don't trust Trump or the vaccine, etc. The list for refusing to getting vaccinated goes on and on.
There's also a large percentage of people like me that are fully vaccinated and are growing more fed up with the politicians and the policies that are being imposing on us. We did what we thought was right and got the vaccine. Now, it seems there's no benefit to being vaccinated other than you might not get as sick if you do get the virus. I predict there will be a large percentage of previously vaccinated people who will refuse to get vaccinated again after 12 months has passed.
The policies & messaging has been totally botched. What's been most interesting to watch throughout this whole mess is how willing the country was to comply with the lockdowns and mandates for the "greater good". That's going to be a hard sell going forward unless trillions of dollars are given away again.
I hope some reliable info on long-term antibodies with B and T cells helps with folks who have had Covid decide if a vaccine is for them. There is a ton of conflicting info at the moment regarding if natural vs vaccine.
When you incentivize and advertise to come on over here so we can care for you it draws attention. They are wearing and waving biden propaganda for gods sake!
This attention brings upon MORE people heading our way. The more that head our way the more conflicts there will be.
What it ultimately boils down to is HOW MANY ARE GETTING THROUGH! Nobody cares how many don't!
For a true insight to it we would need a total of who try vs a total that succeed. Its all about percentages if you wanted to truly play the tit for tat game.
Yes, it does matter when someone thinks the border is “wide open” and that illegal immigrants are “being welcomed with opened arms.” That is the notion I’ve been responding to, and that notion is patently false. You are making an entirely different point, sasquatch, and I agree with everything you said.
Matt
As I said yesterday, things are a disaster here. Hospitals are full. Doctors are pleading with the public to get vaccinated to take pressure off of the system. I have no doubt it's starting to have an effect - how much of an effect remains to be seen.
Great video that demonstrates a reality being seen with increasing frequency; in the Northeast we're seeing a resurgence in NJ especially but also in my home state and MA. One key factor everyone needs to appreciate is that ICU's typically run around 70-80% of capacity under the best of conditions. Unless we're talking about large acute care hospitals many ICU's have anywhere from 10-20 beds; do the math at normal capacity and you can see how quickly they can be swamped with an influx of COVID patients.
What is undeniable is that immunity is the only preventative strategy that will impact these numbers, whether via natural means of by vaccination. With regard to the latter what is beyond dispute is that the current crop of vaccines is highly effective and safe; adverse events are always a downside of a vaccine (and for that matter antibiotics and other pharmacopeia) but the good far outweighs the bad.
I've been at this for over 30 years and I can assure you that I am seeing lab personnel, nurses, PA's and MD's hammered like they've never been hammered before. If you choose to not get vaccinated because a)you've had COVID and recovered or b)you have done your homework, gotten reliable information, spoken with a trusted physician and feel the benefits do not outweigh the risks I fully support and respect your position with the admonishment to do everything you can (solid infection control practices) to mitigate risk of spread. If you are not getting vaccinated and you're basing it on faulty information I can't excuse that; the information is very easy to obtain and as I've said the evidence is clear and overwhelming; vaccination works.
Matt
Don't rely on the MSM for info...do your own research. You can see by the graph, despite all the hype...the sky is not falling (last "tick" on that graph was yesterday).
As an aside...the "Darkest Days" appear to be right before Joe's Inauguration ... weird, right?
You're right, not immigration, but CHINA, is the reason for the disaster that is the pandemic. But if you think there is no threat of increasing the spread from our shit-show of a border policy, you're more ignorant than I gave you credit for.
Yesterday I was in a convenience store and listened to a woman proclaim that the non-vaccinated are to blame for all of this...lol! It still amazes me how the species that is the left, is still able to procreate without a brain or a spine.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-study-shows-74percent-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html?fbclid=IwAR1ukCDdLnVVyi4dapbc0Q9J7YCCvxDMC4nvJyZzCS6Vmmwu5RiDdUPNHoc
What are the long term risks of taking the vaccine? 1yr 5yrs 10 yrs down the road? Do they make you sign a liability waiver when you get the vaccine? Do you have any right to sue big pharma or fed govt if the vaccine turns out to cause long term illness?? Is keeping the "emergency authorization" in place the way the govt/pharma remains exempt from all future lawsuits?
If you take the MRNA version of vaccine, this new way to trigger the immune response in cells.... does that potentially affect your natural ability to respond to this or future viruses? With booster shots coming for the vaccinated, could starting this process become a permanent lifetime to a never ending future of MRNA vaccines and boosters???
In 10 years will we see TV commercials saying.... "If YOU were given the covid vaccine in the early 2020 years, call...."
And yet, at a state level in Massachusetts, the percentage of COVID cases involving fully vaccinated individuals is still only 1% of all COVID cases and the percentage of breakthrough cases is .1% of fully vaccinated individuals.
You can always find outliers and anomalies - and that is exactly what the full data set suggests this sample of 900 cases ARLOW linked to represents.
Still only 2 classed of people
It’s very sad to see how easily the masses are just rolling over.
It’s a lot of psychological warfare. Beat people down u til they will give up anything for a little normalcy.
BINGO!!!! Ive probably said a version of this 5 times on this thread alone!!!
Why oh WHY is the administration not talking about folks in this group or counting them towards herd immunity. They literally will not talk about it. If you add in the millions of folks that have contracted Covid and survived we are way past herd immunity.
That would be a GREAT thing, yet nobody in this ADMIN will acknowledge it. I personally fall into this category - had Covid in April - have the antibodies. Dont want to put words in Mikes mouth - but that is as good or better than having the vaccine!!!!!!
I would get the vaccine if you could prove to me my natural immunity is irrelevant.
You Bowsite LIBS - am I in the same category as the antivaxxers or do you acknowledge us folks that have natural immunity?
I keep coming back to one word lately - 'denialism'.
Who is saying party????
ANSWER THE phucking QUESTION above about natural immunity!!!
No we are not seeing "failure of epic proportions", we're seeing an outlier that is easily explained if one has a basic understanding of basic immunology and predisposition towards infection. What's not being widely reported, if at all, is that Provincetown has long been a haven for the homosexual community, a population that studies have shown have a greater tendency towards a weakened immune system. Immunocompetency is the best path towards effective immunization against a pathogen, whether it be acquired naturally (infection/recovery) or via vaccination.
Further, as the vaccines efficacy is 95% it should be painfully obvious that means that 5% of a population will not derive protective benefits; with over 164 million Americans fully vaccinated plug in all the numbers of breakthrough cases and you'll be at less than 1%; not only isn't this "epic failure" it's actually outperforming expectations.
With regard to the Delta variant; all infections are not created equal; the rates of serious hospitalizations and death are still well below those in an unvaccinated (or those without naturally acquired immunity) population. To be perfectly clear; natural or vaccine-derived immunity does not mean you will not get infected; infection is considered to exist when detectable levels of a pathogen exist in a person (can be in the nasopharynx, blood, body fluids, etc). As the bulk of infections still remain in the asymptomatic to mildly symptomatic category the claims of the current vaccines not working against the Delta variant are a misrepresentation.
Finally, as I've stated before, to expect a "one-and-done" vaccine against an RNA virus puts you in the odds category of buying 1 Power Ball ticket and hitting the jackpot. RNA is not as stable as DNA so errors are common during replication and errors produce mutations. Some mutations result in the variant strain dying off, some increase pathogenicity and some actually can decrease it. While it's still possible the selection of a strong antigenic vector may avoid the need for annual vaccinations it's likely that at some point new variants will arise that diminish the efficacy of our present vaccines and require new ones. I strongly suspect that at some point we'll adopt a multi-valent (multiple strains of SARS-CoV-2) vaccine and that may be the means to reduce, if not eliminate any need for annual vaccinations.
Contrary to popular rumors the sky is not falling and the apocalypse is not upon us.
Liberal aliens? I thought it was 'BLM radicals'. Was asleep when the narrative changed? Who will it be next time, 'Chinese underground saboteurs'? Or slaves of the space reptilians? ;-)
So being heterosexual can increase your odds of not getting the China Virus. More good news.
Including tenth-generation citizens? I hope you're a better shot on hair ;-)
With that said, we currently have ~60% of the population accounting for >90% of the COVID cases, and 99% of the most severe cases.
Mike- can you clarify if people under say 50 or under 40 have a great chance of dying or being a covid long hauler with not being vaccinated? Thank you in advance! And i sincerly appreciate all your input on this matter.
Wait...what?!...are you saying all the riots, and looting, and burning, were just another "red herring" that never really happened?!
Damn...and I fell for it hook line and sinker...
Mike in CT's Link
Link provides good information on age breakdown as well as some other useful information; hope this helps!
What it comes down with regard to risk of serious illness or mortality with COVID-19 is immunocompetency and the presence of co-morbidities. Age becomes important when you get into the 65+ range as immune function tends to decline and the risk of co-morbidities (heart disease, respiratory disease, etc) can increase, especially if an unhealthy lifestyle/diet and genetic predisposition exists.
Younger people (and substantially younger) can be at risk though if their immune system is compromised; this can be from an autoimmune disease, being on anti-rejection drugs (transplant recipients) as well as some cancer treatments. Young people can also have co-morbidities (CF, lupus, etc) that can leave them more vulnerable than their healthy counterparts.
Bottom line is if you're in good health and your immune system is functioning at a high level your risk of serious infection (and worse) is likely very low. These factors should always be considered when weighing the decision about vaccination. If you have a personal physician that you know and trust, talk to them. Read all the material you can get ahold of from all sides of the issue; you'll be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.
If you have any questions please feel free to shoot me a PM anytime.
Stay well!
The first, is that even though young people are at low risk of experiencing the most severe outcomes from COVID and vaccination won't move the needle much for that, it does significantly reduce their risk of contracting and passing on the virus. The less this virus is transmitted, the less it mutates. The less the virus is transmitted, the faster we can return to normal.
Secondly, although they're unlikely to suffer the most severe outcomes, young people with COVID still risk taking up space in our healthcare systems that, again, could very likely be avoided had they been vaccinated. There are many areas where hospitals are now at capacity, and for every unvaccinated COVID patient (regardless of age) taking up a bed that's one less patient without COVID likely not receiving adequate medical care. Heart attack? Too bad. Appendicitis? Too bad. Car accident? Too bad. Don't have the staff, don't have the bed space to deal with it adequately.
That's why for me, vaccination wasn't a consideration of what it was going to do for my own personal exposure and risk level in isolation.
We often hear of the importance of vaccination in order to reduce the overall incidence of mutation of the virus. Of course this makes perfect logical sense to me...until I look at it from a global perspective. We may well achieve a decently high vaccination percentage here, with a resultant decrease in overall viral incidence. But the virus doesn't respect borders....it travels very well. The rest of the planet's population may not be faring nearly as well as we are in terms of vaccination rate and immunity....thus (potentially) amounting to a massive ocean of hosts for the virus, and it's opportunities to mutate. We would seem to have no chance of keeping those variants offshore if you will, just as we've seen other variants make their way here and spread to every state without exception. For that reason, I personally harbor some degree of skepticism regarding the value of the vaccine toward reducing mutations.
As long as I remember, we have NEVER ( Globally) tracked CASES of any disease!
Fully vaccinated people are spreading this disease, that is a fact! And, it stands to reason, that the human body is fully capable of creating superior immunity, to a lab created vaccine (especially with variants, annual flu vaccines are a prime example of that).
Yet, it appears, I will no longer be able to work after September 30th, unless I get vaccinated against my will (even though I am immune) .
Anyone on either side of this fence, needs to see this as a problem!
Well, there's all kinds of global data on all kinds of diseases, so that isn't correct.
Fully vaccinated people are spreading this disease, that is a fact!
At a rate orders of magnitude lower than unvaccinated individuals are spreading it.
And, it stands to reason, that the human body is fully capable of creating superior immunity, to a lab created vaccine
How did all that natural immunity to polio, smallpox, diptheria, mumps, measles, rubella, etc etc etc work out for humanity?
Or he's just healthy with a good immune system. Herd immunity doesn't mean squat when normal flu vaccine efficacy is somewhere between 40-50%.
Sure sounds that way. How about a friendly wager, BEG? My quantitative titers, vs yours?
Never once have I discounted natural immunity. Per the CDC, to get natural immunity, you need to actually be exposed to a disease and build up the antibodies. What you are describing is not natural immunity. You are confusing natural immunity with the benefits of herd immunity via immunization. There is also innate immunity, which also sounds like what you are describing. Given how contagious COVID has proven to be, especially the Delta variant, relying on innate immunity to avoid contracting and spreading the disease is a pretty poor strategy.
How about a friendly wager, BEG? My quantitative titers, vs yours?
What is a “quantitative titer?”
Have you ever had an antibody test?
And as far as the flu, you may very well have had it as well and been asymptomatic. Carrying it and passing it along to other people in blissful ignorance.
That said discounting the historical effectiveness of vaccines against disease based on your own limited experience within your close nit circle of family and friends is fool hardy at best and idiotic at worst regardless of your political and religious beliefs.
Don’t get vaccinated or not I could careless, it’s your body and your decision…. Until it’s not….. For the vast majority of Americans it’s still a personal decision.
elkmtngear's Link
See link...learn.
With that said, yes, some people do have innate immunity to certain pathogens.
Relying on innate immunity to manage COVID has proven to be a pretty poor choice, and there’s plenty of data that backs that up.
Delta and the new variants don't really care if you've been vaccinated or not, but, I'm certainly not seeing anyone lately who has caught Covid twice. As much as the MSM, Government, etc. are trying to bury this, I believe they are failing, and it will become widely apparent in a few weeks.
But, but..."Outliers", lol !
Because you shouldn’t make your decision on vaccination based on random news screenshots with data that includes zero context and is clearly an outlier based on the complete data set.
Principles and getting screwed up or dead from getting the jab…
bigeasygator's Link
There’s plenty of context left out. What is the vaccination rate of the county? What is the rate of cases pre- and post-vaccination rollout? Comparatively, how many deaths are there? What are the demographics of the county? How is the data being collected? Where is the data coming from? All of these are important context. There are other sources with quite different data from the same county that paint a drastically different tale, so I’m already skeptical of this graphic. From the link discussing Springfield, MS and Greene County…
“ As of Thursday, none of the patients in the ICU or on ventilators were fully vaccinated, Frederick said. Overall, 93% of those admitted to the hospital with the coronavirus were not vaccinated.”
“ 144 COVID+ @MercySGF Communities. 17 COVID deaths so far this month. 3.4/day compared to 2.5 in July. 51% of COVID ICU admissions in July died. 0 fully vaccinated in the ICU or vented today. 93% of COVID admissions unvaccinated. Please get vaccinated.”
“Since January, 94% of those in the county who died of COVID-19 were not fully vaccinated, she said.”
Beyond that, the numbers in the graphic are clear outliers from the more robust dataset that is being captured across this nation.
You’re right, Treeline. One group understands science, understands data, puts the interest of themselves and their fellow countrymen and women first, and wants a return to normalcy.
The other group refuses to get the vaccine.
I understand the importance of context and statistics and also understand how both sides cherry pick to prove a point. That’s not what is going on here - you’ve got a pro vaccine outlet coming out with this data set - that’s surprising to me and should be to everyone else and can’t be dismissed as “lacking context or just a flier”. There just seem to be lots of “fliers” out there.
I’m sure not anti science but I am anti political science when it’s substituted for science. If I feel the need to get the vaccine when my natural antibodies get too low, I may in fact do that.
Where is the news channel getting their data? You’re saying it differs from what area hospitals are reporting. I don’t see anywhere that the county of Greene is rolling up and reporting these numbers, so where did the data come from for that info graphic if it’s not coming from hospital data? Tell me why I should trust a news graphic with no audio versus the documented statements from the actual CEOs of the hospitals treating these people?
I know plenty of people that work as doctors, nurses, dietitians, etc, from across the country, my mom included. Again, they all paint a very different picture than your news info graphic. It’s a picture that correlates with the actual data being collected and reported.
When you actually look at information coming out of what appear to be the two biggest hospitals in Greene County (Cox and Mercy) that make up the bulk of the dataset around the info you posted, they are on record saying that greater than 90% of their patients are unvaccinated and closer to 100% of the most critical patients are unvaccinated.
There is plenty of hard data out there that backs these numbers up, even if it’s not available for Greene County. You’re tired of the division and media, I’m tired of people posting a unsubstantiated infographics from a news story, here-say from a friend of a friend of a friend, examples involving clear outliers and anomalies when you look at the complete and available dataset, and treating them all as settled science.
Cox and Mercy are so biased it’s not even funny. Most here understand that. When they say one thing and the nurses who have daily contact with the patients say another - I’ll choose to believe the nurses. Rather than hide or conveniently leave out data - be truthful with it and try to figure out what is going on. If vaccinated people are truly being hospitalized here and 43% of Covid hospitalizations have been fully vaccinated - why is this happening - virus mutation, etc… give facts. But nope - let’s dismiss it as a flier or as an intern who can’t do simple math and post a graphic - ok.
I’ve asked three times…where is the news channel data coming from, as it is in direct contradiction of the data coming from the actual hospitals in question. It is in direct contradiction of the national dataset being collected.
Wanna talk about fitting a narrative….you would choose to believe an unsubstantiated infographic clearly differing from the nationwide data set and also clearly differing from the data coming from the actual hospitals that provide that very same information. But cool, you know someone who knows someone whose cousin is a nurse.
Whitey's Link
Mine would go along these lines - Which vaccine did you get? How long have you been fully vaccinated? Where were you vaccinated? In an attempt to identify the cause of vaccinated people being hospitalized at a 43% rate. Was it a bad batch of vaccines - maybe out of date? or are we seeing that certain vaccines only provide antibodies for a very short time? Not against the vaccine, but let’s figure out why this is happening. I wouldn’t be so quick to just write it off.
Your first option is to write it off as an intern messing up. I prefer to look into it. - The graphic states “ICU cases growing” and shows “hospitalization numbers” - You assume it’s an intern messing up, getting numbers from who knows where. I’ll go ahead and assume they got the numbers from hospitals and for some reason that we don’t know, the vaccinated are being hospitalized here at a very high rate.
Have a good day and stay safe out there.
The largest hospitals in Greene County, Missouri are, quite literally, on record reporting drastically different numbers. So it seems quite unlikely that’s where the numbers came from. So again, who do you believe…
1) some unsubstantiated infographic created by a news channel with no sources cited
2) data coming directly out of the actual hospitals
I’ll continue to go with #2 every time. It has absolutely zero to do with what narrative I’m trying to support. The data should be essentially identical - it isn’t. You apparently think the first source is more credible. I don’t.
My end goal is to end the pandemic and return to a state of normalcy. It’s individuals like you that are the primary reason the disease is persisting, people are continuing to die, the virus continues to mutate, and why we are regressing back towards shutdowns and mask mandates. It’s selfish, shortsighted, and, in my opinion, foolish.
From what I’ve heard the hospitals would make everything including deaths Covid related to collect more money. If this is true then how can we trust data that comes from hospitals?
It’s not true. This has been proven false over and over again. It’s truly mind boggling to me that we are a year and half into this and these myths perpetuate.
70lbdraw's Link
Move along now...nothing to see here!
"Man up for the sake of humanity and get vaccinated. This is a monstrous pandemic!"
Is this what the sign says at the border gates?
If only the vaccine was as effective as the democrat fear mongering...?
spike78's Link
bigeasygator's Link
It astounds me that people actually still believe this. You clearly have looked at none of the data on vaccinations. This is settled science.
“A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others.”
Just because vaccinated people can still contract the disease and can still spread it does not mean vaccines “do not prevent” contraction or spread. They are not 100% effective, but they certainly aren’t 0% effective. In fact, they are proving far more effective than originally thought, and breakthrough cases are still exceedingly rare (~.01% of vaccinated individuals as of last count).
I've got news for you BEG...a "growing body of evidence" is proving otherwise, as we speak! Wait for it...
Lower does not mean zero.
Been waiting for the evidence. Beyond the anomalies and outliers, nobody has provided any. Here’s the latest from our local hospitals i pulled off of their social media posts. Only showing what we already know. 90% plus of all cases are coming from the unvaccinated.
Try again.
I am presuming you did not read anything past the headline? From the link you posted:
"Despite these early studies, previous studies have shown vaccines, including those available in the United States, work against “variants of concern,” such as the Delta variant. The vaccines also prevent serious illness, hospitalization and death in most breakthrough cases where a fully vaccinated person tests positive for the coronavirus. For example, a U.K. study published in May showed two doses of the Pfizer vaccine were 88% effective at preventing against symptomatic infection of the Delta variant and 96% effective against preventing hospitalization."
88% effectiveness for a vaccine is still really good and represents only a ~7% decline versus its effectiveness against the original strain.
"I've got news for you BEG...a "growing body of evidence" is proving otherwise, as we speak! Wait for it..."
Do you have anything that supports the contention that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine are as likely or more likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others? I am guessing no as all the data I have seen indicates that is solidly untrue, but I'm interested in reading it if you do.
As I've stated, I have first hand knowledge of 14 individuals up in the Portland area, all fully vaccinated, and symptomatic with testing confirmed Covid 19 (recovering as we speak). I'm not a rocket scientist, but I am a Medical Professional, and I can smell a trending situation when it arises. These variants apparently give no fux, whether you've been vaccinated, or not.
And how can they cite "previous studies", when the variants are so newly released? I doubt if anyone has had time to study any significant population of patients, all with confirmed individual variants.
Despite equal populations, unvaccinated individuals account for roughly 10 times the amount of cases. More cases, more ability to transmit. Beyond that, data has showed that unvaccinated individuals have a much higher viral load than vaccinated individuals, making them more likely to transmit the disease. So, again, I’ll stick by my statement that the unvaccinated are transmitting the disease at orders of magnitude more than the vaccinated based on the data.
Knowing of 14 vaccinated people that got COVID is not proof that vaccines don’t work. As a medical professional I would expect you to have a better understanding of data and statistics
Using simple math, removing the Covid survivors from the "unvaccinated" population, sort of makes it much more likely, that vaccinated folks may actually soon be spreading MORE disease (due to the new variants), than the "unvaccinated". Really makes you think...
“ My end goal is to end the pandemic and return to a state of normalcy.”
What you describe there is always what a take over of freedoms starts as. It’s nothing but psychological warfare!
They beat you down with BS until your willing to give something up for the sake of some normalcy again. Control and power is addicting!
Just as STILL there’s no mention of the naturally immune population. We must as ourselves why??
I guarantee you 50 years ago they’d have NEVER convinced the masses to mask up and stay inside!
So no, you don't. Even if your circle of friends wasn't anecdotal, a sample size of 14 people is insignificant.
Below is a link to an article from Israel. The bad: 50% of recent Delta infections are of fully vaccinated people. The good: 81% of the qualifying population is fully vaccinated, so the delta variant is disproportionately affecting the unvaccinated (mostly those under 16).
Not to mention, in the link spike78 posted above the vaccinated stand a much better chance of not having a symptomatic form of the disease and the potential for hospitalization is virtually eliminated.
Focusing on the breakthrough infection aspect while ignoring hospitalization and death is missing the forest for the trees.
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/rest-of-the-world-news/covid-19-israel-says-delta-variant-infecting-vaccinated-people-mask-rule-reintroduced.html
spike78's Link
While uncommon, reinfection happens and the attached article indicates the vaccinated were re-infected 2.3x less frequently than those with natural immunity. While the sample size was small at 246, I feel compelled to mention that is still many times more than 14.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/08/06/new-cdc-data-shows-covid-19-reinfection-risk-double-unvaccinated-people
50 percent of new cases in Israel are vaccinated? Hmmmm...
As I said, the new variants are absolutely not selective. Thanks for backing me up on that ;^)
"Common dreams", lol !
Couldn't be left leaning, with a title like that, right?
The vaccine is still far more effective than going unvaccinated, even against the Delta variant. The more a population is vaccinated, the more the share of cases will come from vaccinated individuals. With that said, if you’d actually look at the current data from Israel, you’d see the following.
Currently, cases are less than one-tenth as many as during January’s peak.
Hospitalizations during the current outbreaks are less than one-sixteenth of January’s peak.
Admission to intensive care units for severe COVID-19 cases is less than one-twentieth the number of admissions in January.
By essentially every metric, the vaccine is performing as expected.
TREESTANDWOLF's Link
“ But most breakthrough cases, which occur in less than one percent of fully vaccinated people, cause mild or no symptoms. Of the more than 164 million people fully vaccinated nationwide there were only 7,525 patients with COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections who were either hospitalized or died in the U.S. through August 2, 2021.”
Breakthrough infections are more likely among health care workers who are in frequent contact with infected patients, older age vaccinated people, and those with weakened immunity, such as people with cancer and prior organ transplant. Breakthrough infections are also more likely to occur in situations of close contact, such as in large public gatherings, restaurants, cramped working spaces, and outdoor or indoor parties.“
This is a very good read, and I suggest reading the entire article.
Matt's Link
That's a moving number as the breakthrough infections seems to be linked more the Delta variant which is relatively new, but eyeballing the stats suggests the survival rate is very high. The CDC has a page that covers breakthrough cases, and as of 8/2/21 there were 7,525 hospitalizations and 1,191 deaths attributed to COVID. While it looks like a high % of deaths : hospitalizations, that doesn't take into consideration the under-reporting of breakthrough cases as so many are asymptomatic/do not require hospitalization. By way of context, that is out of ~164M Americans who have been fully vaccinated. Probably not the right way to look at it, but that represents .0007% of fully vaccinated people who have died from a breakthrough infection to date (that will no doubt increase over time). That compares to the official US COVID death rate of ~1.7% (I personally think that stat is ~5x too high as it only counts those who tested positive and would exclude most asymptomatic cases). Even if you were to take a very liberal approach and assume that .0007% was only for the month and annualize it, reduce the death rate by 5x, and add in deaths that could be linked to the vaccines, the odds are still orders of magnitude in favor of the vaccine.
Edit: looks like TREESTANDWOLF hit on some of the same points while I was researching my response.
Matt's Link
From the article: "That there are hardly any deaths accompanying the rising case count is a good sign. The data show that vaccinated people who are getting the virus are generally recovering without serious illness.
Iceland provides a case study for how an effective vaccine rollout perhaps doesn’t guarantee herd immunity but prevents hospitalizations and deaths."
DanaC's Link
elkmtngear's Link
TREESTANDWOLF's Link
“ But most breakthrough cases, which occur in less than one percent of fully vaccinated people, cause mild or no symptoms. Of the more than 164 million people fully vaccinated nationwide there were only 7,525 patients with COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections who were either hospitalized or died in the U.S. through August 2, 2021.”
Breakthrough infections are more likely among health care workers who are in frequent contact with infected patients, older age vaccinated people, and those with weakened immunity, such as people with cancer and prior organ transplant. Breakthrough infections are also more likely to occur in situations of close contact, such as in large public gatherings, restaurants, cramped working spaces, and outdoor or indoor parties.“
This is a very good read, and I suggest reading the entire article.
Yeah, COVID is serious. Yes, it's potentially fatal, esepcially if you're over 65. So's alcohol. Alcohol kills an estimated 90K per year, according to CDC estimates and not a word. Not. One. Single. Word. What happens when obesity is declared an epidemic? You gonna willingly submit to a government mandated diet. Or perhaps a tax on red meat, like on cigs? You've already proven just how submissve you'll be for the flu. You relinquished control to nameless, faceless bureaucrats and will play hell getting it back. While COVID and Dr. Faust took front and center stage in everything, the Infrastructure Bill is most likely going to be passed. You know what's in it? Provisions for a usage tax. IOW, pay per mile driven. Cost to be determined by more unelected burueacrats.
Giving the country back one piece at a time because of media driven fear, an unapproved vaccine and face diapers. SMFH....
1. I do believe COVID is real. Real enough that my oldest has watched elderly patients get ventilated knowing that no one, absolutley no one in that facility that was over the age of 70 that was tubed survived.
2. I do beleive it's a choice to wear masks. We were told the vaccine would enable us to get rid of the mouth muzzles. Guess that was another mis-statement.
3. If you think COVID has been not been used for political purposes, you are either incredibly naive or willfully ignorant. Neither of which is an endearing trait.
Feel free to give up your rights, your job, your freedom to engage in daily activities and routines. Just don't expect me to.
And one of my biggest takeaways is how some people still think this about politics. I believe vaccination, masks, and social distancing are still the right thing to do not because somebody in the government thinks so, but because every medical professional I know and respect, and plenty that I don’t know, say it’s the right thing to do. It’s because it’s what the data says is the right thing to do (for more of that, see above).
Contrary to the belief that we’re giving up freedoms by getting vaccinated or wearing a mask, the opposite is quite true. I do those things and advocate for them because I want to live the life that I can’t now because too many people have refused to get vaccinated. Where I live we are seeing events cancelled and companies shutting down again, and it is not the government making these calls - they are free market decisions being made by private institutions. Apparently a lot of you are comfortable with this new normal and okay perpetuating this mess.
BEG, data is just data it’s how it’s used. our data and institutions are suspect. There is a lot of data coming out of Sweden and and Israel that supports the people that oppose Covid vaccines. Experts up the wazzu that agree with people against Covid vaccines. Your argument boils down to I like my guys so I think they are right. Good, that may work for you. It doesn’t make the other guy wrong. All the previous data has never shown a mid summer surge in an upper respiratory virus , explain that. As to your “data” graphic. The states are some of the lowest avg. income states also the lowest education and the highest obesity rates. Maybe they should try something different than the President calling them stupid ,offering them a cheeseburger ,threatening to punish them and general bullying if they don’t get vaccinated .
But that's the issue. The anti-vax sub-set of the population is the basis for policies that are impacting everyone's freedom, costing people their jobs/livelihoods, and clogging the healthcare system. It may not be the case in your county or state, but where I live the policies being instituted because of anti-vaxxers exercising their freedom are the reason the rest of us aren't able to fully exercise ours.
"There is a lot of data coming out of Sweden and and Israel that supports the people that oppose Covid vaccines."
Whitey, can you post up links to that data? I am interested as I have not seen anything from either place that supports that contention.
Sure you can. You just choose NOT to. And I'm not an anit-vaxxer. I'm anti unapproved vaccines, that have been rolled out in under a year with ZERO long term data. Regardless of numbers vaccinated. I'm anti showing ID to engage in normal day to day activities, while showing ID to vote is somehow a tremendous burden and a limit on rights. I'm anti lock downs that were done in an egregious heavy handed manner that destroyed literally thousands of small businessess here in PA with a governor refusing to disclose how essential vs non-essential was determined. I'm anti allowing governors to dump COVID patients in nursing homes resulting in thousands of deaths and not being held accountable for their actions. Instead they are under fire for playing grab ass with the staff. THAT is politicizing a "crisis".
Like I've said this "crisis" provided governments around the world a lab so to speak, to see how compliant people truly are. It's amazing just how compliant "we" are. IPCC's latest report is out on global warming. Governments already have the model on how to respond to the next existential threat to our little blue world.
My wife is an RN and has lost all faith in the medical community for their lack of virtue and promoting the lies. Very few doctors have an independent office and usually answer to a corporate group which establishes policy. Like Nazi Germany where well meaning people were only doing their job.
#1 lie, masks protect you/us from the virus.
And now I think it is safe to say that the vax does not protect you/us from the virus.
Governments have learned that people give up their rights for emergencies and now there will be no end to emergencies.
No people who lose their character ever kept their liberties - Lawrence W. Reed
I'm still waiting for him to lambaste Obama for holding a "sophisticated" super-spreader! Lol...
We all know the reason they are soirehending more illegals now versus the previous administration is due to a bunch more illegal immigrants trying to cross under this administration. That’s a fact and he knows it. But, it doesn’t support his narrative or his intents. So, he cherry picks his words do he can “debate”.
They just cancelled Jazz Fest in New Orleans for the second year in a row. That decision was made by the producer of the show, not because of some government mandate, and it was made because the spike in cases due to people not getting a vaccine forced their hand. So what exactly am I “choosing” not to do? Do I need to get The Rolling Stones to come and play my at my house instead, and that way I can make the choice I want? Help me out. That’s one example of many across this country playing out right now.
Per your previous post, Ike, with your clever little graphic on living in a country where we have to produce a card to move around freely or shop. Curious, do you have a problem with people producing a card to fly on a plane? Rent a car? Vote? What about stores that have policies on people wearing baggy clothes or other dress codes? I suspect you have a shifting definition of freedom to suit your needs.
We all know the reason they are soirehending more illegals now versus the previous administration
I can only assume that word was supposed to be apprehending. But go ahead and read that sentence you just typed out again and please tell me how we have “open borders” and illegal immigrants are being “welcomed with open arms.”
And, right there is the issue. I'm not anti-vaxx either. I'm pro-constitution and not forcing folks to vaccinate when they don't want to for whatever reasoning they choose, whether good, bad, or just plain irrational. Whether you choose to be vaccinated or not, each choice has its own risks and consequences that you alone will have to deal with.
And right there is the issue. People still think that the decision on whether to vaccinate only impacts them. No, it is not you “alone” that has to deal with them. As I, and others, have pointed out, we are all feeling the consequences of individuals choosing not to vaccinate.
For clarity, I fully believe it should be a choice. But I also fully believe there’s a right choice.
Nope, never wore a mask before all of this, whether I was sick or not - the benefit has never outweighed the hassle up until COVID. And no, don't have any kids so I won't have to make that decision.
With that said, if I did have kids - if the vaccines are approved for use (emergency or otherwise) by the FDA for children, I wouldn't hesitate getting it for them. I'm a firm believer that vaccines are safe and that they work.
My guess is, it's because he fell for the scare tactics of the left. Obama has clearly proven that there is no reason to be so scared. At least, I'm assuming that's the case, since BEG has yet to condemn him for partying with the rest of elite lefties...unless, just maybe, the Obama superspreader was also a red herring?!?! Yeah...that's the ticket!
EUA is NOT the same as FDA approval. I too am a firm believer that vaccines are safe and effective.
However, after spending 10 years working in pharma with drug delivery systems and seeing first hand the FDA approval process for drugs (upwards of 10 years), let's just say I'm skeptical of a "vaccine" rolled out in under a year, no long term studies, clinicals or trials, that has an efficacy far less than what was originally stated, for a flu that has a survival rate of ~98.5%.
And my guess is that it has much more to do with the rising case count and the fact that hospitals here are at capacity. And I think the party Obama through was irresponsible in light of the current situation. My wife and I have cancelled plans and had friends do the same, and I think that's been the right decision as of late. Throwing a gigantic birthday party, not so much.
I have questions/comments.
Just because some drugs take more than 10 years for FDA approval, doesn't mean all drugs do. Will you feel less skeptical if the FDA grants full approval for the vaccines in the coming months?
In terms of "no long term studies," mRNA vaccine technology has been studied for decades, accompanied by multiple phases of robust clinical trials for all of the vaccines. What "long-term" studies or "trials" are missing from the COVID vaccines that we've had on other vaccines that received FDA approval?
In terms of efficacy, breakthrough infection rates are being measured in the upper 90% right now. By all measures, they are exceeding expectations. So help me understand the comment that they have an efficacy less than originally stated?
I hear all this concern about "long term" effects from vaccines. Can somebody provide a single example of a medication that is taken once or twice for which side-effects don't manifest for years down the line? If so, it would be the first instance I've ever heard of.
Vaccines are designed to deliver a payload, and then dealt with by the body. While the immune response they trigger stays for some time, the vaccines don't just linger in our body waiting to wreak havoc years later. They are dealt with, and it's why any side effects typically show up days or weeks after they are introduced, not years later. The medications you have to worry about long term side effects are those in which you are taking consistently over time, for which the drug continues to build and impact your body - not one you take once or twice or on a yearly basis. It's like smoking...you aren't going to get smoking related lung cancer by smoking a single cigarette, even if you do that once a year or twice a year.
What??
Matt
bigeasygator's Link
*sigh*
What is a flu shot?
An influenza (flu) shot is a flu vaccine given with a needle, usually in the arm. Seasonal flu shots protect against the three or four influenza viruses that research suggests may be most common during the upcoming season.
Huge turnout, and quite loud!
So, the vaccine *worked*."
70lbdraw's Link
This is worse than the Wisconsin teachers marching 3rd and 4th graders down to the Scott Walker recall rallies.
Matt's Link
So, I should chose to go to events that aren't happening because of COVID? Maybe I could take some clothes to the drycleaner around the corner that closed shop earlier this year, or have a meal at one of the local restaurants which closed during COVID never to re-open, or go work out at the two gyms in my neighborhood that have been permanently shuttered.
"BigEasy it is not a vaccine. Same reason it is called a flu shot not a flu vaccine. What is confusing you?"
He is probably confused by the fact that there is someone participating in this conversation that does not understand that the annual flu shot is a vaccine. The attached link to the CDC website which discusses the flu vaccine may be illuminating.
"Can you still get Covid being "vaccinated"? Yes Can you still give Covid to others and be a carrier after being "vaccinated"? Yes So what is it "vaccinating" you against?"
Man, you are on a roll. The COVID vaccine makes it ~25x less likely that a person who gets COVID will be hospitalized or die from it.
" Can I get Polio after a Polio vaccination? No Can I give Polio to someone else or carry it after being vaccinated? No"
Yes, you absolutely can get polio after being vaccinated for it, but it likewise is a very good vaccine (effectiveness listed as 99%-100%). And unlike the COVID mRNA vaccines, the polio vaccine can actually give you polio.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html
ND String Puller's Link
ND String Puller's Link
I think it’s pretty important to consider that with a virus affecting such a large percentage mildly or not even at all, it might be time to stop suggesting the unvaccinated sector is causing problems with the vaccinated people’s freedoms.
The numbers we have puts us about 65% resistant. By way of shots, natural antibodies, and age. That’s assuming no one took the vaccination that actually had Covid. Which I’m certain is wrong. But, at what point do we acknowledge that teenagers and children are likely a large part of the unvaccinated pool? And, how many Americans have the antibodies and don’t even know it?
I know it’s been pretty common to shame those that aren’t rushing to get the shot. But, at what point do we say, based solely on cdc stats, that the remaining pool of unvaccinated people are largely composed of those that are carrying the antibodies or are of an age it’s not considered worth the side affects of these shots?
I agree there is some assumptions to that line of thinking. I agree somewhere is likely a stat to rebuke my assertions. But, I’m pretty good at math, stats, and even 300 level economics. And, either people are reciting the punchline due to ignorance, or, they haven’t stopped long enough to do some math, apply a little bit of statistics, and realize the narrative we are all being fed and, some are reciting as gospel, can’t be as black and white as it’s being painted.
I reckon I’ll do a search and see how many underage kids we have in this country. Because I’m not nearly as thrilled with Matt, BEG, or anyone else throwing around insinuations of who’s to blame for these freedoms lost, Business’s ruined, and just the over all over reach of government who appears to be too dumb to even do a little math.
It is estimated there are 75 million people living in the USA that are 17 years old or less. Add that to 160 million is giving us 235 million not eligible for the vaccine. That leaves 100 million left. If the numbers we were told are correct, that 80% of those that got the virus didn’t even know they had it, how many truly need vaccinated?
For people concerned with getting it right, I’m pretty sure that needs to be estimated at least. If we can estimate death counts, then surely we can get a guess of how many relevant people truly don’t posses antibodies or, have not been vaccinated.
Gets back to my earlier point, that with the new variants, the narrative that the "unvaccinated" are responsible for the spread, is partisan bullcrap.
Take the number of Covid survivors from those numbers, and add the growing incidence of active Covid in the vaccinated population. We are actually probably at a point, where the vaccinated are now more responsible, for the recent rise in cases.
Oh, and the death rate remains low, but...if you listen to the news: "These are the darkest days of Covid"...SMH
As everyone should know by now the COVID vaccines (and yes, they really are vaccines) do not prevent infection, they stimulate the production of antibodies that clear virus from the system (and thereby steadily decrease viral load).
An unavoidable reality of basic virology is that the unvaccinated (and for that matter those who do not have natural immunity from prior exposure/infection) do not see the same rapid decrease in viral load; owing to this reality they are very efficient vectors for transmitting the virus and remain so until, (if) they are able to mount an effective immune response and clear the infection.
The hypothesis that the vaccinated are more responsible for spreading COVID is simply not true.
As always, it’s great to hear your thoughts. Take care and God Bless.
But here is another example FROM REAL LIFE. I go to a group of 5 doctors who are in a family practice in my town. 1 of the 5 doctors choose not to be vaccinated. He is in his 50s. He has been in ICU now for over 6 weeks. Was on a respirator for 4 weeks but just got off. He might actually make it now.
Wonder what his opinion is now.
Care to provide your source of information?
My research shows Israel is about 64% fully vaccinated. They are ahead of most countries, but certainly not number one on the list.
I also can't find anything that supports your claim that the CDC has banned travel to Israel. They've urged against it, but they have not banned it.
Matt
Name one vaccine, or any medication for that matter, that was delivered roughly one time, or even on a frequency of once a year, that revealed any long term side effects. I asked earlier. I’m just looking for one example.
Drugs or chemicals with long term side effects are a result of long term exposure (consistent use, building drug levels, etc). That’s not how vaccines are designed, it’s not how they work, and it’s not how they’re administered.
Matt's Link
But, thanks for confirming who is spreading the true "crap".
Matt
This country is ran by big pharma and big tech. The info we receive is sold to the highest bidder. With a lawsuit waiting behind every drug/chemical made.
Covid went through our house we all had it. I’m hoping our natural immune system works the way our creator intended it. God bless you all. Kelly
Let me preface this by laying out a plausible case for exactly that scenario and one I posted back in the early days of the pandemic. You want to engineer a bio-weapon so what are the items you need to check-first, you want it to be highly transmissible, second you're ok with severe symptomology and even a fair mortality rate but you don't want rapid and high mortality (like Ebola as this kills to quickly to create a pandemic).
Next you want to test it in a population to witness the effects you engineered; you also want to ensure the "elite class" isn't killed so you create effective treatments and ideally have a vaccine to give to that class. For the sake of illustration we'll say the test population is the peasants in Wuhan province; they're expendable and there's plenty of them. You release your bioweapon and a lot of people get sick and a fair number die. Your protected class goes on it's merry way and this confuses the rest of the world who wonder why the virus isn't spreading and can't believe the data on infected and deaths.
Is this scenario plausible? Absolutely. Do I believe this is what happened? Absolutely not.
Well why not you ask? Let me explain one key principle in developing a bioweapon, especially if it's a virus; the last thing you want is that virus mutating because there's a chance you'll lose what made it the effective weapon you designed it to be. To safeguard against this you'd engineer it in such a way that you'd create the equivalent of a "conditional lethal mutation" to tie the desired pathogenic traits to a key component to keep the virus viable. This way if the virus mutates the variant dies and only the engineered original strain continues to replicate.
In engineering your virus you'd also have substantial alterations from any naturally occurring strain; this isn't the case with SARS-CoV-2; you've got a very high level of commonality in both recombinant and non-recombinant regions of the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and coronaviruses found in bats going back several decades. In layman's terms this evidence alone is a slam-dunk for a naturally arising virus.
Further evidence has unfolded right in front of all us; RNA viruses are inherently mutagenic (RNA is less stable than DNA so errors are much more frequent when copying during replication). As of now we have identified at least 10 variants of SARS-CoV-2; the virus is behaving exactly as we would expect a naturally developed virus to behave and we will continue to see new mutations arise.
The saddest aspect of the conspiracy (created virus) isn't that it's had so deep an impact on all of us; it's how ill it bodes for the next emergent novel pathogen (and make no mistake, there will be more).
There are no politics in the microbial kingdom; there are things that can be beneficial, things that can cause us harm and things that can and do kill us. We better get our you-know-what together damn quick people.
Ah, there it is! Love the lil ‘ol guy…
Matt's Link
Piling on I see. If you had done just a little research, you'd know that comment is just as incorrect as the one about the travel ban. There are ~70 other countries in the same level as Israel.
As to Israel, you need to account for the Palestinian aspect when looking at COVID risk. While Israel's population has a high vaccination %, that doesn't take into consideration their porous border and large number of Palestinians (low vaccination %) who come and go daily.
But can anyone dig up the 2017/2018 total United States deaths and then compare it to the total 2020 deaths.
This number should show if there’s really a pandemic
Matt's Link
"In 2020, approximately 3,358,814 deaths occurred in the United States (Table). The age-adjusted rate was 828.7 deaths per 100,000 population, an increase of 15.9% from 715.2 in 2019. The highest overall numbers of deaths occurred during the weeks ending April 11, 2020, (78,917) and December 26, 2020 (80,656) (Figure 1). Death rates were lowest among persons aged 5–14 years (13.6) and highest among persons aged ?85 years (15,007.4); age-adjusted death rates were higher among males (990.5) than among females (689.2).
During 2020, COVID-19 was listed as the underlying or contributing cause of 377,883 deaths (91.5 per 100,000 population). COVID-19 death rates were lowest among children aged 1–4 years (0.2) and 5–14 years (0.2) and highest among those aged ?85 years (1,797.8)."
Basically, if you swipe positive before (or after) they pronounce you dead...it was a "Covid Death" ("contributing cause"). Like the kid that shot himself in the head while cleaning his gun, at our local Hospital. When you monetize something (adding Covid 19 CPT Codes for Billing) , numbers can "magically change"...
Regarding the thread (not you Mike)...
I do wonder at what point people have a line in the sand. Is the complete distrust of medical/health science solely covid related, or, on all angles? If you have kids, would you vaccinate them on a standard normal schedule (forget COVID, normal vaccines historically given)? If you are older, would you get a pneumonia or shingles vax? Would you get your tween son/daughter vaccinated with the HPV vaccine? Do you take antibiotics or use other medications when a provider indicates you should?
I realize that may look like I'm leading to a gotcha. It's really not. I'm just trying to understand the broader view.
Help expound on this for me. I'm trying to understand this. We have a Center for Disease Control that is designed, in large part, to get involve in national health emergencies. Would you feel safer in a world where the CDC didn't exist? What about Operation Warp Speed? Trump's plan to mitigate risk and accelerate vaccine development? Untrustworthy and not helpful as well? Do you have a primary care physician that you trust (you talk about getting antibiotics from doctors you trust)? Have you asked them about their opinions on the virus, vaccines, and other prevention measures?
What about all of the medical professionals who work for private healthcare providers imploring people to get the vaccine? They don't work for the government or take orders from Fauci. Are you skeptical of them as well?
And as far as the media, do you expect them to stay silent during the largest health crisis in a century? Furthermore, there is loads of data and information on the virus and vaccines out there not being funneled through large media outlets. Do you look at this and use this to shape your perspective, or do you just stop at "CNN and Fauci talked about it so it must be bad?"
For all the hype, India's total Covid death toll is only about 300/per million population. New Jersey's death toll here is 3000/per million some 10x worse than India!! And we are going to lose our minds over a place that is LESS dangerous??
After a year and a half and 3 waves of Covid so far, only around 35 million Americans have officially been infected. That is only about 10% of the country, and only 1.75% of that group died, and 80% were over age 65. So if you are in the small group at high risk, get a vaccine and wear as many masks as you feel comfortable wearing.
Meanwhile 90% of this entire country has not had any illness at all. And you're going to panic NOW??
This thing comes AND GOES in waves, same as the deadly 1918 Spanish Flu. Perhaps take a moment and look up how that one finally ended....
32 million total cases to date, 429,564 deaths.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
ND String Puller's Link
India and their Delta variant is nothing compared to the death rate in South America and the next Lamda variant. Look up Peru, Brazil, Columbia, Argentina, and Paraguay. All far worse than America. Luckily we have a strict quarantine for anyone entering from South America, potenially carrying the deadly Lamda variant.
Oooops!
Matt's Link
The attached article suggests that India's COVID death reporting may be understated by 5x-7x. Not saying they are necessarily right, but that using data coming out of India as a comparison for the US's situation would be very misleading if true.
A Google search will yield many different articles that share the same contention, so the contention in the linked article is not an outlier.
And your lack of concern over the more deadly Lamda variant likely streaming across the southern border.
Matt's Link
I expected that folks who have been following this were aware of India's history of national and regional lockdowns, so I didn't think an explanation would be required.
Matt's Link
Matt's Link
Perhaps they are trying to save lives and get our economy back on track? Nah, I am sure it is all about control....
When anti-vaxxers' world views are formed based on beliefs that the vaccines contain microchips, cause autism or other false notions as the justification for "why not", I personally do not think it is an "agree to disagree" type of situation.
Mike in CT's Link
A side note for those still paying attention; this variant is yet another example of the classic natural evolution of an RNA virus. Anyone desirous of researching the natural evolution of SARS-CoV-2 will easily uncover some very good research pointing to origins as far back as 1948 (link is but one of many good sources of information).
Oh….the irony.
I don’t think anyone has to worry about that with you however.
And you want to give Dana advice. Good grief.
Appearantly, young children are infecting other young children, and they expect most if them to die!!! Some may even be charged with murdering their friends! I'm just looking for the current numbers. It's starting to remind me of being in Puerto Cetzal Colombia; children died on a regular basis from elephantitis and related illnesses. It was a daily thing for them to have a funeral involving a 4 foot long casket...sad...
That’s oversimplifying the severity of the virus by a wide margin. For one, we aren’t at a 1% mortality, we’re higher than that. Some places of the world are much higher. Secondly, in a world where people choose not to vaccinate, choose not to wear masks, choose not to social distance, and choose not to enact any other restrictions, the death count could easily be over a million deaths per year. Is that acceptable? Furthermore, are you comfortable living with a disease that kills 15-20% of the elderly people that contract it?
“A crawf is a type of person that claims he is completely heterosexual, but is clearly not. The individual could be described as a Bender or someone who drops anchor at poo bay. Tend to have a craving for sex with males or females. "That boy is such a crawf"
Personally, good. BUT - if everyone is eventually getting it, and 1% die, that's over 3 million Americans. 3 Million. That is BAD news.
I worked out with a woman tonight who works for a local hospital. I asked her for a Delta update and she said rather starkly that she was told the Stanford ICU was filling up with kids that were below the age able to be vaccinated. Anecdotal for sure, but the COVID we are facing today is not acting like the one most of the statistics are based on. People need to recognize that.
I keep hearing people fall back on the 99% survival rate, and while true it completely overlooks the survivors whose lives are permanently impact by the disease. Pulmonary conditions, heart conditions, diabetes, amputations, etc. Pretending that just because a person did not die means they fully recovered is flatly dishonest, but is a canned response by some here.
Matt's Link
"An Axios/Ipsos poll released Tuesday found that among the unvaccinated, 37% blame people traveling to the U.S. from other countries, 27% blame mainstream media, 23% blame Americans traveling to other countries, 21% blame Biden and 10% blame the unvaccinated.
Meanwhile, among vaccinated respondents, 79% blame the unvaccinated, 36% blame former President Donald Trump, 33% blame conservative media, 30% blame people traveling to the U.S. and 25% blame Americans traveling outside the country.
The survey was conducted July 30-Aug. 2 based on a sample of 999 adults. The margin of error is plus or minus 3.0-3.4 percentage points."
It is interesting that the vaccinated out-blamed the unvaccinated 203% to 118%. Impressive work....
Matt
What condition is worse than dead?!??! THAT is how ridiculous and politically exploited this whole thing has become....
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/567402-fully-vaccinated-man-dies-of-covid-19-daughter
We had a fully vaccinated man die yesterday from Covid, in our little Town as well.
Again, this is a numbers game. Not a single person on here has said you can't get COVID if you're vaccinated, or that you won't die from COVID if you are vaccinated. You keep citing statistical outliers and treating those as if they are common. They aren't. It's akin to seeing a hunter get mauled by a grizzly and concluding hunting is unsafe for everyone and we shouldn't do it.
I am not vaccinated and try to be careful by not being around a lot of people but my coworker is vaccinated and loves going to bars and barbecues and everywhere else their is a lot of people. So who is to blame should I get Covid?
Has your coworker caught COVID yet? Have any of your other coworkers come down with it? You said you try to not be around a lot of people, but is that number zero? What is the status of their vaccination and their social behavior? If you contract COVID, statistically you and some other unvaccinated individual you come into contact with are more likely to blame.
The numbers couldn't paint a clearer picture. You are far less likely to contract COVID or transmit the virus if you are vaccinated. If you do contract it, you are far less likely to contract a severe case requiring hospitalization if you are vaccinated.
What about the large percentage of those who are unvaccinated but have natural immunity?
Remember how asymptomatic we were told this was? That plus all those who def had it has got to be a huge number.
But ik ik, there’s only two classes of people. The sophisticated (vaxed) and unsophisticated (unvaxed)
Matt
Don't believe everything on social media. Besides that, don't you know, everyone is an expert.
Some people are so gullible they'll believe anything they see in print.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
Fear does not stop death. It stops life. And worrying does not take away tomorrow's troubles. It takes away today's peace.
People Are Entitled To Their Own Opinions. But Not To Their Own Facts.
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” - Samuel Adams
Everything I’ve been reading suggests full approval is a matter of months away.
I’ve addressed this topic of long term side effects above, and I’m still waiting for a counterpoint. For a medicine, vaccine or otherwise, long term side effects are a function of long term use. Drug levels build in the body, and over time they cause side effects. That is not how vaccines are administered, and that is not how vaccines work. Vaccines deliver a payload and the the body deals with them. They don’t linger or persist in the body. That is why side effects from vaccines show up in the short term and not the long term and also why it’s highly unlikely COVID vaccines will have any long term side effects.
I’ve asked above and I’ll ask again, please provide an example of a vaccine or medicine that gets delivered once or on a frequency of once a year that has shown side effects that don’t manifest themselves for years down the line.
You are most likely correct in your estimation for 510k (full FDA) approval for the Pfizer/BioNTech mRNA vaccine. The submission was made back in May and based on the data it seems highly likely they will secure that clearance if not before the end of 2021, in Q1 2022. FYI, the FDA has 180 days to respond to a submission so that would be in mid-Nov. The response can be immediate approval, request for additional data, request for additional data and clarifications or rejection of the submission.
You have also dealt with the long-term issues most admirably and there's nothing I can add to what you've posted; the evidence supporting your posts is overwhelming.
For public awareness and in the interest of transparency, CDC is providing timely updates on the following serious adverse events of interest:
Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccination is rare and has occurred in approximately 2 to 5 people per million vaccinated in the United States. Severe allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, can occur after any vaccination. If this occurs, vaccination providers can effectively and immediately treat the reaction. Learn more about COVID-19 vaccines and allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis.
Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) after Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen (J&J/Janssen) COVID-19 vaccination is rare. As of August 6, 2021, more than 13 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 39 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and later developed TTS. Women younger than 50 years old especially should be aware of the rare but increased risk of this adverse event. There are other COVID-19 vaccine options available for which this risk has not been seen. Learn more about J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS. To date, two confirmed cases of TTS following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Moderna) have been reported to VAERS after more than 335 million doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered in the United States. Based on available data, there is not an increased risk for TTS after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination. CDC and FDA are monitoring reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) in people who have received the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine. GBS is a rare disorder where the body’s immune system damages nerve cells, causing muscle weakness and sometimes paralysis. Most people fully recover from GBS, but some have permanent nerve damage. After more than 13 million J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine doses administered, there have been around 1,455 preliminary reports of GBS identified in VAERS as of August 6, 2021. These cases have largely been reported about 2 weeks after vaccination and mostly in men, many 50 years and older. CDC will continue to monitor for and evaluate reports of GBS occurring after COVID-19 vaccination and will share more information as it becomes available. Myocarditis and pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. As of August 6, 2021, VAERS has received 1,253 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis among people ages 30 and younger who received COVID-19 vaccine. Most cases have been reported after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), particularly in male adolescents and young adults. Through follow-up, including medical record reviews, CDC and FDA have confirmed 730 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis. CDC and its partners are investigating these reports to assess whether there is a relationship to COVID-19 vaccination. Learn more about COVID-19 vaccines and myocarditis. Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 351 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through August 9, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,631 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths pdf icon[1.4 MB, 40 pages].
Did he die from the vaccine or just after he took the vaccine? We have spent so much time differentiating between people who died WITH and people who died FROM COVID that I think that is an important question to ask.
Regardless, statistically it appears that the vaccines are orders of magnitude safer than getting virus even with these anecdotal accounts of complications/fatalities associated with the vaccine.
Yeah, wouldn't it be nice to know, given the huge number of Covid Deaths reported by the CDC.
Funny how it never seemed to be in question by the "everyone needs the vaccine" people, until death by vaccination instances (or, vaccinated people dying with Covid Lung) started to become more and more prevalent.
Based solely on the science nonmaskers are super spreaders. Based solely on the science that that it’s thought that 80% who had the virus, didn’t even know they had it. Basically, Base it all solely on nothing more then what you all have claimed here over and over again. You know, the science part that every single one of you claim to abide by.
I think that’s an important part of the equation that keeps getting talked around. I asked it way back. I asked it again the other day. And, I’m asking again today.
Do you even care to acknowledge that or is it still a “vax all approach”? Because with sone indications that those carrying natural antibodies might be fairing a little better then those who taken the shot, your endless approach that the unvaccinated are causing problems might not hold much water. Or support the science you insist is spot on.
It’s going to be interesting to see over time, if reinfection rates even exist in the amount it deserves focus, among those who’ve got the natural vaccine. Or, if it even protects a person in the ling run. I think it’s pretty clear it’s going to be individual because these outliers as you keep calling them are becoming more prevalent. You can’t cite an article as science when the science is starting to move on.
Actually I think the timing is irrelevant; in all fairness if the people who feel the vaccine is unwarranted have no issue with questioning how many hospitalizations/deaths were "with COVID" as opposed to "from COVID" then I don't think they can eliminate that qualification from the vaccination hospitalizations/deaths, not only for consistency but to avoid hypocrisy.
And while not wanting to speak for anyone else I have long been on record here as stating that I see no need for anyone who has had COVID and recovered to be vaccinated and further, it may be counterproductive to do so.
Lastly, "increasing prevalence" is very much a relative term and absent meaningful context it can be very misleading. Going from 3,500 breakthrough cases that result in hospitalization or death to over 7,500 while representing more than a doubling of such cases remains a statistically insignificant change when measured against over 167 million fully vaccinated US citizens.
Further - has there ever been an MRNA vaccine widely released to the public before? Ever?
Lastly - if someone gets damaged by the covid vaccine, do they have a right to sue? Or is there a waiver you have to sign? Anyone have a copy of the vaccine waiver to share??
mRNA vaccines are new, the idea of using synthetic mRNA for a variety of infections and diseases began in the 1990's (see link). With recent refinements the promise is there for effective vaccinations against other diseases and possible applications for cancer.
On your last point the EUA granted to the present vaccine manufacturers exempts them from liability.
Mike in CT's Link
I completely agree Mike, I was trying to point out the hypocrisy of the fact, that we were never allowed to question the death numbers, when they were frantically rising around Election time (or magically dropping after Biden was inaugurated) ;^)
Sort of like how discussing "Herd Immunity", was "taboo", before the vaccines were available. Now, it seems to be the driving force of the CDC and the MSM (but of course, they are discounting those who have already recovered and may have adequate antibody protection, as WV mentioned above).
Funny how things seem to be coming "full circle"...
Thanks for the reply and I agree 100%. It's ironic you bring up herd immunity; early on I stated that our approach was ass-backwards; we should have sequestered the most vulnerable while working on vaccines and treatments and let herd immunity develop in the healthy, immunocompetent population. I honestly feel we could have avoided much of the anguish of prolonged lockdowns and arrived at the desired point (a well-protected population) sooner.
It's my greatest hope that we're taking stock of all the wrong turns we've made this go-round so we don't repeat them when the next novel pathogen emerges.
Stay well!
Who in the world said 80% of the population has had the virus? I didn’t. I stated what EVERYONE was told last year. By the stats we had. That as high as 80% who HAD the virus, didn’t even know they had it. I made that plain. It was common belief among the medical community being cited by the MSM. And, as far as I know, still is. Did you miss that or chose to believe it isn’t so?
Eitherway, the points I asked are clear. You aren’t going to twist them to fuel your narrative.
You either believe the science you preach or, you think it’s wrong. Because statistically, the percentage of people in the unvaccinated camp that have antibodies has to be a relevant part of the unvaccinated pool.
One highly esteemed professional gracing this page has said multiple times if you have had Covid, you should definitely consult with a physician you trust before making the vax crowd happy by blindly getting the shot.
Exactly my stance in the beginning as well, Mike!
As you said...maybe we can get it right next time, one can only hope!
I guess this is where we start getting into some gray areas and what constitutes "long term" side effects. But my research shows those GBS cases all were identified within 6 weeks of vaccination. Given the extent of the clinical trials and the current status of the vaccination across this country, we are well outside of that time window.
From the Director of the CDC in an interview last week:
"Another moment of confusion was when Walensky last week told CNN that vaccines don’t prevent the transmission of COVID-19 at all.
“Our vaccines are working exceptionally well. They continue to work well for Delta with regard to severe illness and death, they prevent it. But what they can’t do anymore is prevent transmission,”"
Doesn't really justify the vaccine mandates, being rolled out by our Libtard Governor!
In this case, I'm incapable of reading comprehension. Sorry, I misread what you wrote.
I have no doubt the case count could very well be much higher than what it is. It is, in many ways, irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is we are reaching critical thresholds that overwhelm our healthcare system and cannot handle the case count.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how many unreported or uncounted cases there were - what matters is the system can't deal with what we have right now. That is why we are taking steps backwards across the country - why events are shutting down again, why restrictions are going into place, why mask mandates are being brought up again.
At the end of the day, the burden being placed on our healthcare system is OVERWHELMINGLY coming from unvaccinated individuals. By multiple metrics. If you are vaccinated, great. If you have natural immunity, great. If you are neither of those things, you should get vaccinated.
She was referencing the rare cases of people who have breakthrough infections - that infected individuals are the same transmission risk, whether they are vaccinated or not. This was not a statement about the effectiveness of vaccines overall. As has been discussed multiple times, there is ample proof - in terms of case counts, viral loads, etc - that vaccines do, in fact, lower the risk of transmission of COVID significantly.
Our local Hospital has around 1000 Employees that have not been vaccinated, and do not wish to (many of them have already had Covid). On September 30th, According to the Governor's recent mandate, they will not be allowed to enter the building unless they can "show their papers".
We are already short-staffed in the Critical Care Departments, because we can't get travellers to come to California (why would they want to, with this B.S. going on)?.
We are about to enter 3rd World Country status as far as healthcare goes, because of Communist rule in a handful of "Blue" States.
So are the vaccine breakthrough deaths statistically insignificant, or are child covid deaths statistically insignificant where we don't need to force our kids to wear masks or take experimental vaccines? Which is it???
We actually feel a little naive to have placed so much concern over the extremely rare "breakthrough" cases, but I guess that's human nature. People always focus on the negative more than the positive. The Bowsite outfitter reports are just one of many examples of this. When was the last time someone started a thread about a positive outfitter review? I don't recall one, ever. But I do recall several threads about negative outfitter reviews.
Finally, I, too, would like to thank Mike in CT for sharing his in-depth knowledge and expertise on this subject. I hope to someday meet this man who I've always respected and admired for his civil demeanor and intellect.
Matt
If I recall my Sunday school lessens correctly, I think there is scripture that says "you should love thy neighbor like yourself". To me, getting vaccinated (if you're not already naturally immune from getting and recovering from Covid) falls inline with that scripture.
My wife and I are not getting vaccinated because of any mandates, or any type of social pressure. We're getting the Jabs because we think it's the prudent thing to do based on the overwhelming body of evidence that shows they work, and do so very effectively.
Matt
Here, here. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Going back to the CF, there are definitely a few folks on here I wouldn’t mind sharing a campfire with one day.
All that said, it seems as if this pandemic will soon pass because if we consider the vaccinated, the non-vaccinated who have had Covid and the current surge I’ve gotta believe we’re getting closer to herd immunity.
You all have my deepest respect and I would love nothing more than the opportunity to share a campfire with you all. We may have our disagreements at times but I know that each of you comes by their position honestly and all have a love of family, country and this great passion we share for the outdoors; what a blessing if only to share a virtual campfire with you.
Godspeed and keep you and yours safe & healthy and here's to seeing each other on the other side!
Rupe's Link
BTW BGE you’re lying about the border surge, nothing new for you, but in any event we are being swarmed with infected illegal immigrants.
July 28th, 2021 “ In a court filing last week, a top Department of Homeland Security (DHS) official estimated that approximately 210,000 illegal immigrants were apprehended by US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) in July, an 11 percent increase from the 188,829 stops in June and the highest number in more than 20 years.”
Highest in more than 20 freaking years, but to an American hating liberal that’s fake news.
Is it plausible that todays youth will respond differently to this virus or variants of this virus when they are in their 50s? Will 50, 60, 70 year old people in the future be able to handle something like this better due to the fact of having bouts with it in their youth and it being so prevalent in population?
This virus is an RNA virus and they have a great tendency to mutate; we're seeing this over the past several months with the variants that have arisen and we've already seen some changes in the immune response to them. The key factor in any variants are 1)where has the mutation occurred and 2)to what extent has the mutation altered the virus?
These are the great unknowns at the moment with this virus; kids and even adults vaccinated today may have an effective immune response to this virus and the current crop of variants but if a significant change to the virus occurs next year or years later it's possible those immune responses can be slightly diminished, significantly diminished or completely absent.
You're on the right track with questioning about future immunity as the current crop of our youth ages; again, if there are no significant changes antigenically in the virus they may be well protected. Those who acquire natural immunity are best off as they will have not only antibody production to protect them but cell-mediated immunity (a population of T-cells that attacks the virus when it enters the body).
I wish I could give you a definitive answer but this type of virus is the type most likely to throw us a curveball; DNA viruses are a different ballgame as DNA is much more stable so errors are much less frequent when replicating which is when mutations arise.
I hope this was at least somewhat helpful-great questions!
The study, published Friday in the journal Science Advances, offers the most detailed accounting yet of how the devastating 2020 wildfire season is believed to have amplified the coronavirus outbreak. It traces increases in infections to periods of smoke in more than 50 counties in California, Oregon and Washington.
While a correlation between wildfire smoke and COVID-19 doesn’t prove causation, the study’s authors say the tie is no coincidence. Plenty of research since the start of the pandemic has suggested that exposure to smoke’s primary unhealthy component PM 2.5, which refers to particulate matter that is 2.5 micrometers in size or smaller, compromises people’s immunity and increases susceptibility to COVID-19. Scientists also hypothesize that the virus may be spread by the particles.
KSflatlander's Link
Most people with breakthrough infections experience mild illness, said Dr. William Moss, a vaccine expert at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
In the U.S., people who weren’t vaccinated make up nearly all hospitalizations and deaths from COVID-19.“
We're gonna need a little more here, Mr. Uncredible.
May not be outliers. Here is more detail being put out by one of the local hospitals regarding their COVID patients. You can see that the breakthrough infection rate in the elderly population is highest. However, the data I’ve seen shows that this is also the most vaccinated population. So you’d expect a higher percentage of vaccinated cases. It’s also worth noting that the case count of those that are 80 years or older are half of those of patients in their 40s and a third of those in their 50s. So that nursing home data may very well be in line with the broader statistics - and can also be further proof that the vaccines are working, not the opposite.
“But, one life is too much lost.” That’s the approach we were told to take. Unless we are talking about defenseless ones that can’t fight for themselves.
It most definitely is. I did a bit more digging on the nursing home examples you provided, WVM.
Those two facilities have 320 beds. Websites for those facilities are advertising essentially 90% vaccination rate for their patients.
Now I don’t know the occupancy rate of those facilities, but a quick search shows the national average to be about 90% as well.
So that would be ~289 patients, 260 of them being vaccinated, 29 being unvaccinated.
So, 36 out of 260 vaccinated patients got sick (14%), and 16 of 29 unvaccinated patients got sick (55%). I can only imagine what this outbreak would have looked like pre-vaccine rollout.
This shows why it is absolutely critical to not stop at the headline, which showed 70% of the cases in an isolated outbreak came from vaccinated individuals. When you peel back the onion, you’ll see that the vaccine effectiveness is still very high across the sample population (86% of vaccinated patients didn’t get sick) and the unvaccinated actually experienced cases at a rate of essential four times the vaccinated (14% vs 55%).
I’m not peeling any onion anywhere. Because I just showed you that isn’t an outlier. Along with about a1/2 dozen others.
Quit preaching to me and everyone that you are right. You aren’t. Reinfection rates among the vaccinated has long past outlier status. Good grief.
Quit preaching to me and everyone that you are right. You aren’t. Reinfection rates among the vaccinated has long past outlier status. Good grief.
I don’t know how the stick may have entered your hind quarters but you may want to get it removed.
Let’s get somethings clear:
- no vaccine is 100% effective. No one has ever claimed as much.
- the example you provided as an “outlier” (your words nor mine) show that the vaccines are (1) effective and (2) working even better than expected. If you would have taken the literal 5 minutes to look a bit deeper into the data than try and post some “gotcha” headline, you would have come to this realization on your own.
When it comes to vaccination effectiveness and the rarity of breakthrough infections, it’s not a matter of opinion. There are facts out there. They are easy to come across and to share. Per the data, not just your one poorly researched example that actually shows the vaccine working, breakthrough infections are, indeed, outliers when looking across the entirety of the population.
“I think the vaccine is working.“
Joining the SMH club.
LMAO! Who posted that youtube video anyway? Faux News
I haven’t dug deep enough to develop an opinion but it would be interesting to hear what Mike in CT thinks about this possibility.
“Harvard study links COVID-19 infections, wildfire smoke
A new study conducted by researchers at Harvard University concluded that in some counties in California and Washington state that have been particularly hard hit by wildfires nearly 20 percent of COVID-19 infections were linked to elevated levels of wildfire smoke. The researchers also found that the elevated levels of fine particle pollution were linked to an even higher percentage of coronavirus-related deaths. "Clearly, we see that, overall this is a very dangerous combination," Francesca Dominici, a professor of biostatistics at Harvard and one of the authors of the study said. Previous studies have also suggested that there's correlation between high coronavirus positivity rates and periods of high wildfire smoke, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has warned that wildfire smoke can make people "more prone to lung infections," including COVID-19. [The Washington Post)”
COVID _KILLS_ a shit ton more people than the vaccine. It messes up people in likewise larger numbers. But keep on bleating the alt- view that the vaccine is more dangerous than what it prevents. And all the _anecdotal_ evidence in the world ain't gonna change the numbers.
If you expect skepticism about the government/CDC from others, you should likewise be skeptical about every other 'source'
Let’s define “adverse” as hospitalization or long term effects like loss of taste or smell. Swelling, arm soreness, a few days in bed, and joint pain shouldn’t count. Nor does speculation of some future unknown condition from either the vaccine or contracting Covid.
I agree with the consensus opinion that those in areas highly impacted by wildfires can suffer from respiratory compromise due to the combination of smoke and inhalation of particulate matter. It's perfectly understandable that these areas would see an increase in both the number of cases and serious illness; any condition or illness that negatively impacts respiratory function leaves those people more vulnerable to infections, not just COVID-19.
China started it...our government fumbled it...yet, us peons are being blamed and punished for the outcome?! At what point do we say..."enough" ?
I would never deny any bowsiter a helping hand, or, a spot at my campfire. But it would prolly be best for us to NOT talk politics during the event!!!
This " vaccine" is new and unique, I'm sorry but I just don't blindly trust these folks. We all came unglued over CWD a few years ago, and now we are injecting prions, ie spiked proteins, into our bodies. With a mRNA code to build a crap-ton of more spiked proteins.. Doesn't make sense to me...some autopsies have found " vaccinated" folks to have organs completely clogged with spiked proteins.
And I have noticed that smoke seems to reactivate the virus, my Uncle was out west for business and came home sick as a dog, O2 down in the 80's, had to go in for a few days. This is a sneaky virus, not unlike the people that cultured it...it hides in joints in particular seems like.
People WANT to believe so badly that the gov't is going to save them, that they aren't looking at the facts. If you believe in the " vaccine" get one of each kind, and booster up every week, knock yourself out, that's your decision, just don't make mine for me.
It might have been better if China had nuked Wuhan in the early days of this whole Covid thing. Because the nastiest virus does not survive cauterization at a million degrees.
And sh*, now you guys have got me talking like some 1950's armchair missileeer. Too old for this...
Matt's Link
Sadly, we divided ourselves. Our media and our politicians twisted easily manipulatable hyper-political Americans against one another. The disease happened, but we allowed the divide to happen. Every time I read someone who uses the word "Libtard" or someone from the other side telling us what is said on Fox news when they have clearly never watched it, I am amazed by the sheer stupidity of it all.
Speaking of sheer stupidity, Kreiger's post speaks to the type of horse$#!+ that people will freely accept and regurgitate when it aligns with their political worldview. The spike proteins in the vaccines are not prions nor do they generate prions (https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-mrna-based-covid-19-vaccines-cause-prion-disease/), and the mRNA in vaccines do not result in more spike proteins being made and the spike proteins from the vaccines do not clog organs (https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go). Says the guy who posted "People WANT to believe so badly ...". Sorry, but you - and the ones pumping up your post - are the poster children of what you are clamoring against. And you probably don't even know it.
My story....Got the first shot on May 17. June 1, my wife (not vaccinated) tests positive. A few days later, I'm sick. Nasty flu-like, with a terrible cough, lethargy and a low fever every evening. Stayed at home for 2 weeks and felt 85% better. I just got my second shot Friday.
I don't understand why this whole issue is political. The fact is we have a health crises (pandemic) right now, regardless of the circumstances as to how we got here. It's the strangest thing how people have reacted, both sides of the aisle.
Johns Hopkins, specifically the Bloomberg School of Public Heath has been holding pandemic exercises since 2001 (events were held in 2001, 2005, 2008 and again in 2019).
Those enamored of conspiracy theories should invest a fraction of the time spent chasing them into reading The Coming Plague: Newly Emerging Diseases in a World out of Balance by Laurie Garrett. The book was published in 1994 and is well worth the read for gaining insight into why this won't be the last global pandemic.
Preparing for likely public health emergencies isn't fodder for conspiracies, it's sound policy.
Matt's Link
At least now they know what a real insurrection looks like, just like they will find out what a real health crisis looks like, after trying to shove an experimental gene-therapy trial down our throats....unintended consequences can be a hard row to hoe.
Those enamored of conspiracy theories should invest a fraction of the time spent chasing them into reading The Coming Plague: Newly Emerging Diseases in a World out of Balance by Laurie Garrett. The book was published in 1994 and is well worth the read for gaining insight into why this won't be the last global pandemic.
Preparing for likely public health emergencies isn't fodder for conspiracies, it's sound policy.“
Gotta disagree with you about that book Mike.
DO NOT READ “The Coming Plague:Newly Emerging Diseases in a World Out if Balance”
Not unless you have Howard Hughes kind of money and can live in perpetuity in your penthouse, opening doors with tissues.
If you read that book, you are going to be inclined to spray people with bleach and alcohol.
No, you are not understanding. Iceland had run ups in COVID case counts in April 2020 and December 2020 which resulted in increased deaths. That was before the vaccines were available. Despite current cases being ~2x greater than 4/20 and ~40% higher than 12/20, now that the country is heavily vaccinated they are not experiencing the deaths.
Um, neither are we, or at least, the curves for CASES and DEATHS are astronomically out of sync. Back when we peaked (In January), case curves and death curves were almost identical.
But...the sky is falling, right?
What a Cluster F of an "administration"!
Not really. When looking at these numbers, we need to be mindful of 2 things: 1) deaths lag new cases by ~2 weeks, and 2) the national numbers represent an aggregation of state numbers.
While it is true that there is not quite the same correlation between new cases and deaths nationally as we have seen with the past increases, if you were to drill down to the state level you would see that there is a divergence developing that appears to correlate to vaccination rates.
Here in CA there is a disconnect between the case and death curves (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/california/). By that I mean that with this current wave of new cases we are not seeing the same pattern of increasing deaths. In this instance, while the new case graph steepened in early July, deaths have remained fairly constant from then to now (~60/day). There is a similar phenomenon in the highest vaccination % states like Maine (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/maine/) and Connecticut (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/connecticut/) as well.
But in places like Mississippi (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/mississippi/), Louisiana (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/louisiana/), Tennessee (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/tennessee/), and Texas (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/texas/), the same generalized pattern we saw during previous surges is repeating (deaths increasing following an increase in new cases). In the example of Texas, the new case increase also started in early July, but current deaths are ~4x+ higher per day than they were then. In MS, that increase was closer to ~7x at the peak and LA was closer to ~10x.
You have. What you haven't seen is any legitimate evidence that he didn't. The Russians thank you.
I am witnessing things that are absolutely insane; blood clots in urine, new onset seizure disorder, hemorrhaging, patients with altered mental status, patients who can no longer walk, heart attacks, strokes, bowel obstructions, severe debilitating pain, respiratory failure, critical lab values... and so much more. I also have personal knowledge of 6 deaths. Now I am starting to witness "fully vaccinated" patients sick with COVID-19 who end up in the hospital. My friend, this shot is not at all what it was "marketed" to be.
I am mortified by the whole of the medical community and those in national leadership who stand down to the truth and what is right. Thank you for covering this topic. It needs massive public awareness.
Haven't gotten one myself. Waiting for them to finish experimenting on humans.
A little sarcasm there, but has anyone ever noticed that all of the drug commercials we see on TV ad nauseum, have a punch list of possible side effects that can eff you up and/or kill you? You think they will ever tell you the side effects of their vaccine? I know shingles vaccines come with a punch list of things. I think it is big pharmas way of lawyer proofing. If so, why isn't the gov't lawyer proofing themselves? The question begs.
Read there was yet another strain, the Lambda variant out now that is vaccine resistant. Started finding it in South America apparently. Surely we'll be safe from that because that dead-from-the-neck-up son of a bitch that is taking up space in the WH will make sure those from SA fleeing their shitholes and freely coming here are clear of any and all communicable illnesses. Yeah, think I'll wait for awhile.
Matt's Link
Per the CDC's most current numbers, there have been 6,789 deaths reported to VAERS following COVID vaccination. The reported number used to be in the 12K range, not sure if they cleared some cases through review (which I understand to be the standard process) or if there were reporting issues, but the currently reported # is~1/2 of what you cite.
And that is still orders of magnitude (~1,000x) lower than the death rate from the disease itself so not sure why folks get so hung up on that.
From the link: "Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 357 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through August 16, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,789 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths pdf icon[1.4 MB, 40 pages]."
"And I’m guessing..."
We are well aware,
"Lambda is already here. Why Texas is filthy with Covid."
Per an article from yesterday, in the Dallas areas they have only found 4 cases of Lambda and 95% of the recently tested cases are Delta. In almost every place I have seen Lambda referenced, Delta is soundly out-competing it.
From the link: "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has not yet followed suit with its own designation. In the U.S., lambda accounted for just .1% of new cases in the last four weeks, according to a database for scientists tracking coronavirus variants.
SoRelle said he is less concerned about lambda than about the delta variant, which now accounts for 95% of new COVID cases in the Dallas area. By some estimates, delta is more than twice as contagious as older versions of the coronavirus. The lambda variant, however, remains at a very low rate of transmission, said SoRelle."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/the-lambda-variant-a-new-little-understood-version-of-the-coronavirus-has-arrived-in-dallas/ar-AANiawz?ocid=uxbndlbing
Therefore people are dying running away from something that wouldn’t critically harm them.
Kind of like how everyone was so scared to die from covid they voluntarily stopped loving for over a year now!
spike78's Link
"So you don’t think 6,800 deaths are anything significant?"
I did not say that, you are putting words in my mouth. What I was pointing out that you had quoted a dated statistic that is ~2x worse than what the CDC is currently providing.
"The real question is, how many of those 6800 would have survive covid Just fine????"
No, the real question is how many of the ~170M fully vaccinated Americans would have otherwise died if not for the vaccine? It is massively short-sighted to compare the death rate of COVID to the people who may have died from the disease and not acknowledge that there are many who may have died from COVID if not for the vaccine. Net those who are confirmed or who likely died from the vaccine from the number likely saved by the vaccines. You can make all sorts of assumptions about how that would have played out, but as I indicated above the current numbers suggest that the likelihood of dying from COVID is roughly 1,000x greater than the risk of dying from the vaccine.
"Good read on Covid and the vaccines spike proteins and how to treat them."
Do you ever look at the sources of the article you trot out? When you have a group that suggests that most diseases can be treated with only vitamins, it calls their credibility into question.
But, without the vaccine we already know our survival rate was pushing 99% overall.
The issue is this vaccine is being forced on people when there’s more dangerous things out there and non of which are being spoke about.
However yes there’s a population that needs the vaccine to up their odds but that’s a small overall group.
The problem is, when you force healthy people or already naturally immune people to take the vaccine your virtually only adding risk to those people as they were mostly not at risk rom the start. That is the problem with all this!
Just imagine being naturally immune, but being forced to take the shot, and THEN having problems. No matter how small it should not be ignored! You don’t force your health people to take **** for no other reason then political BS
10x more kids under 14 will die in a swimming pool yearly, yet we aren’t banning pools are we.
Are we still pretending that a 99% survival rate is *GOOD*??? Especially when the anti-mask, anti-vax, anti-social-distancing foleks seem determined that everyone *should be infected*???
Do these cretins actually *want* 3 million US dead so they won't be _inconvenienced_?
Meanwhile in Texas, noted anti-mask Governor Abbott has tested positive for Covid.
Irony is dead.
If you see a rat in your house? Do you burn it down?
We will lose about 12-15 people per 100k everyday to vehicle accidents? What are you championing we do to stop that!?
EMB fun fact on the flu numbers - that's calculated off an algorithm to get a solid estimate given not all cases are recorded and many are missed etc. The flu death numbers for decades have been calculated off a multiplier in the 5-6 range. Plenty of papers on this in JAMA, NEJM, etc if you dont trust a random guy (me) on the internet on this. So, when you see 60K flu deaths noted, that's more like 10K or fewer IF ASSESSED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY COVID DEATHS HAVE BEEN COUNTED. EXACTLY THE SAME. (caps for emphasis, not yelling, I dont know how to underline or make italics on here)
There is NO multiplier for COVID. Probably will be down the road if it continues and was to become endemic, but that's spit balling at this point. As of now, people get covid, die of covid and those are totaled up.
To the point though, that's (far less actual impact) why people dont seem to freaked during a flu season. In the memory of most people reading this, even bad flu seasons have been many many many times less impactful than the first 12 months (or trailing 12 months) of this pandemic.
There's a reason we don't (generally) raise an eyebrow at the flu and we did at COVID. Per the data from last year (2020, CDC), COVID killed ~500x as many people (call it 350,000) as the flu did (700). Viewed through a different lens, in a year where we implemented significant measures to restrict the spread of the disease, COVID still killed 5-10x as many people as the flu does in a world we don't take such extreme measures.
Extrapolating further, last year (the only like for like comparison we have), COVID is killing 500x as many people as the flu. If we had treated it like the flu (business as usual, no restrictions, no health guidelines to limit the spread of a disease), you could argue COVID could kill ~350,000 x 500 = 175,000,000 people! Now that is a bit of a simplification and there are other factors that would determine how deadly the disease ultimately proved to be. But with that said, I still don't get the people who try to equate this disease to the flu.
One last point about the flu and COVID. It's really no surprise that all those things we did to combat COVID - masks, social distancing, lockdowns, working from home, improved hygiene - work really well on the flu as well. The fact that flu deaths were so low is a strong reference point for how effect the measures worked to limit the spread of SARS-COV-2.
ya know, if all the 'freedom fighters' would not get vaccinated but STAY THE HELL HOME we might have a lot less problems. But no, they have to go to the store and raise a stink about mask requirements, and go to super-spreader events with thousands of other un-masked 'warriors', then go home and pat themselves on the back.
But the disease is a conspiracy! sheesh.
Funny, we are such a laughing stick to the world about our toughness. We got so scared of a respiratory virus we somehow found comfort in toilet paper.
TOILET PAPER!! Man we really don’t know what tough times and realities of the world are.
Like my dad said on the run out and buy 10 years worth of toilet paper panic “everything in my house becomes toilet paper if I need it to” it’s the least of my worries
Or perhaps because, despite our best efforts, in 2020 COVID killed ~10x more Americans than an average flu season despite the extensive efforts (e.g. lockdowns, mask mandates) to mitigate it.
Bud: ‘You can’t come in here!’
Lou: ‘Why not?’
Bud: ‘Well because you’re unvaccinated.’
Lou: ‘But I’m not sick.’
Bud: ‘It doesn’t matter.’
Lou: ‘Well, why does that guy get to go in?’
Bud: ‘Because he’s vaccinated.’
Lou: ‘But he’s sick!’
Bud: ‘It’s alright. Everyone in here is vaccinated.’
Lou: ‘Wait a minute. Are you saying everyone in there is vaccinated?’
Bud: ‘Yes.’
Lou: ‘So then why can’t I go in there if everyone is vaccinated?’
Bud: ‘Because you’ll make them sick.’
Lou: ‘How will I make them sick if I’m NOT sick and they’re vaccinated.’
Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’
Lou: ‘But they’re vaccinated.’
Bud: ‘But they can still get sick.’
Lou: ‘So what the heck does the vaccine do?’
Bud: ‘It vaccinates.’
Lou: ‘So vaccinated people can’t spread covid?’
Bud: ‘Oh no. They can spread covid just as easily as an unvaccinated person.’
Lou: ‘I don’t even know what I’m saying anymore. Look, I’m not sick.’
Bud: ‘Ok.’
Lou: ‘And the guy you let in IS sick.’
Bud: ‘That’s right.’
Lou: ‘And everybody in there can still get sick even though they’re vaccinated.’
Bud: ‘Certainly.’
Lou: ‘So why can’t I go in again?’
Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’
Lou: ‘I’m not asking who’s vaccinated or not!’
Bud: ‘I’m just telling you how it is.’
Lou: ‘Nevermind. I’ll just put on my mask.’
Bud: ‘That’s fine.’
Lou: ‘Now I can go in?’
Bud: ‘Absolutely not.’
Lou: ‘But I have a mask!’
Bud: ‘Doesn’t matter.’
Lou: ‘I was able to come in here yesterday with a mask.’
Bud: ‘I know.’
Lou: ‘So why can’t I come in here today with a mask? ... If you say ‘because I’m unvaccinated’ again, I’ll break your arm.’
Bud: ‘Take it easy buddy.’
Lou: ‘So the mask is no good anymore.’
Bud: ‘No, it’s still good.’
Lou: ‘But I can’t come in?’
Bud: ‘Correct.’
Lou: ‘Why not?’
Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’
Lou: ‘But the mask prevents the germs from getting out.’
Bud: ‘Yes, but people can still catch your germs.’
Lou: ‘But they’re all vaccinated.’
Bud: ‘Yes, but they can still get sick.’
Lou: ‘But I’m not sick!!’
Bud: ‘You can still get them sick.’
Lou: ‘So then masks don’t work!’
Bud: ‘Masks work quite well.’
Lou: ‘So how in the heck can I get vaccinated people sick if I’m not sick and masks work?’
Bud: ‘Third base.
Lastly, nobody can improve the original “who’s on first.” Why even try a stupid parody. Dumb.
It's called FREEDOM. You should try it. And speaking of whining and crying.....YOU DA MAN!!
The risk in attaching any level of comfort to overall mortality statistics is that they are just that; overall statistics that include the healthiest, lowest risk groups. When you move up the age ladder the outlook is considerably worse with a range of almost 5% to just over 30% mortality for those 60 and up.
It is for these groups that we need to foster immunity, whether it be by naturally acquired means of through vaccination. The ideal scenario as I've described earlier would have been to only sequester the most vulnerable while allowing the healthy, immunocompetent population to acquire natural immunity. Sound public health policy would have followed up by vaccinating those in the high risk groups and those in the healthy population who hadn't acquired the disease and tested negative for both antigen and antibody.
What's given precious little time in almost any discussion is the burden on our health system by those hospitalized with severe infection; the burden on health care professionals who have soldiered on valiantly and the cost burden we will all ultimately bear, both for prolonged hospitalization costs and dealing with the long-term effects of those who survive serious illness.
I’m all for the vaccine if an individual wants it. But, I’m for freedom of choice more. Plus, I’m not buying it’s the unvaccinated selfish causing problems.
It’s a problem. It’s unrealistic to think this wasn’t coming. This was the plan. To implement measures to not over whelm our medical resources. I think we’ve done that as a whole every where except major population centers, the first and second wave. This is nothing more then cleaning up those that haven’t caught it yet. And, I’m forced to believe those making the decisions fighting this virus would agree.
It isn’t going away. There are a lot of people with bad health that need to weigh their options of shot versus virus. If I was in their shoes, I’d take it. But, I’m beyond wore out hearing how it’s the only option for everyone.
Kurt in Memphis's Link
More importantly, now that the Pfizer vaccine isn't experimental anymore and has FDA approval... can you sue big pharma or the government if the vaccine turns out to have dangerous side effects down the road?
Does anyone have a copy of the liability waiver you are required to sign, to see what legal rights are being waived to get the shot?
I've received the original vaccine (2) and a booster without any waiver requirements.
FWIW - This is on the bottom of CVS consent form.... no way am I signing this!
The Pfizer injection that was approved is not in use and will require liability.
So far, at least 2.5 million adverse reactions and 35,000 deaths in the US and EU from these injections.
bigeasygator's Link
Not true. On August 23, the Pfizer vaccine was fully approved by the FDA for individuals 16 and older.
“Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty (koe-mir’-na-tee), for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.“
I don't know, but I do know that the Covid virus has blanket immunity from any liability for killing you or crippling you for life. And it's 10,000 times more likely to do so than the Pfizer vaccine. But make your own decision and own it. It is a certainty that anyone who is not vaccinated will, at some point, contract Covid. You just don't know when. But the clock is ticking and the Delta variant is looking for you. Tick, Tick, Tick.
Oh wait….., we are in uncharted waters concerning this. Because the craze is no longer about public health. It’s about getting a shot that seems to not work as well as hoped. But, get it anyway. It will make your neighbor feel better about their chances.
Matt's Link
Potentially, but they are ~5x less likely to contract COVID and ~29x less likely to be hospitalized per data recently released by the CDC.
In talking with a cousin over the weekend, 8 of 12 people at a baby shower his daughter attended caught COVID. It was a perfect split between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. A couple who staunchly refused the vaccine (including my 2nd cousin -who happens to be diabetic) were begging for the vaccine in the depths of their sickness - even though they were past the point it would have helped. I don't put a lot of stock in what the mainstream media publishes, but anecdotally it seems like there is a theme that nobody thinks they will be the one to get really sick, and many of those who do are quick to change their mind about the vaccine once they experience the disease.
With FDA approval will come liability of those Companies to liability.
Mike in CT's Link
I'm sorry but you're mistaken; a full 510k (FDA) approval represents an upgrade from the EUA granted but it is the exact same vaccine. A consistent point of confusion over the difference between an EUA and 510k clearance seems to be that there are different metrics applied; there are not-both are subject to the same safety & efficacy metrics.
The distinction lies in the time spanned in data accumulation; an EUA employs all currently available data, a 510k as it typically involves a much longer timeframe encompasses ALL available data usually accumulated over a substantially longer period of time.
Expansion of use (for example, pediatric claims) may also be forthcoming and again, this would not represent a new vaccine merely 510k approval of expanded usage of the present vaccine.
For those who prefer not to take my word on this I'll provide a link; key excerpt from link spells it out: "The FDA-approved COMIRNATY® (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the EUA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series. An individual may be offered either COMIRNATY® (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) or the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to prevent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by SARS-CoV-2."
FYI, the link that Jason (BEG) provided also clearly indicated this is the same vaccine granted an EUA.
Yes, but one has to commend his consistency.
MIKE - can you weigh in on liability protections for the Pfizer vaccine now that it has FDA approval? Do they still have blanket immunity from liability from any death or injury after taking their vaccine???
Panhandle Bob's Link
I wouldn't dare speak for Mike on this subject, but it's my understanding that the PREP Act that was passed in February 2020 gives vaccine manufactures liability immunity until 2024.
Matt
Matt is spot on; current liability protection is in place through Oct 2024 though HHS can terminate earlier (I don't see this happening for a variety of reasons).
12yards's Link
SARS-CoV-2 is, like all other Coronaviruses an RNA virus. Unlike DNA which is very stable and makes very few errors during replication RNA is unstable and errors during replication are much more common. Some errors are severe to the extent that they result in a non-viable virus and those mutants do not survive. Some mutations are not "fatal" and the end result can produce a number of outcomes; the new virus may actually lose pathogenicity, it may remain relatively unchanged from a pathogenicity standpoint with minor structural changes or, worst-case scenario it may acquire slightly to much greater pathogenicity (or virulence).
Worst-case scenarios also can involve mutations at specific locations within the virus. Think of it this way; the current (male) target on the virus is a round cylinder and the antibody is the female equivalent; the round cylinder slides into the round receptacle very nicely and the virus can't attach to a host cell receptor. Now let's say the mutation changes the structure of the round cylinder to a square peg; the antibody binding site is the same so the two no longer mesh and they either don't bind at all or very poorly.
In the wild this results in the loss of protective function of the antibodies produced (either naturally produced from recovered infection or via vaccination).
Ironically, the mutations we've already seen to date with SARS-CoV-2 solidify the argument (one I've made here in the past) that this is a naturally evolved virus and not a lab creation. While hearing talk of mutations can be unsettling at first blush it's actually good news in the sense that we're not dealing with a Frankenstein's monster just nature, acting as nature has since the dawn of time.
The other reality in play in terms of survivability is access to high quality care; while we would prefer to operate in a reality where everyone is treated equally the reality is there are those who have ready access to high quality care (including experimental therapies) that the average man on the street simply doesn't have access to.
Matt
No, their answer for the “common man” is a highly effective vaccine that is free to every American. While some have access to healthcare options others don’t, there isn’t a secret, special treatment for the elites…and if there was it would likely be far more experimental than the vaccines that have been thoroughly tested.
You answered your own question. And the pro bowl Covid team is going to be pissed because that is the reality. But, you mask up, double mask if you must. Whatever it takes to keep the all stars happy. Because it’s their slanted and idiotic outlook that is faltering this country as we speak.
Did you hear that? What? It’s the unvaccinated hurting small business. Not the brain washed, faithless Covid corps demanding the government to make life safe again.
But, get inline, get that vaccine they are working hard to mandate your get, in order to live life. To heck with natural immunity. By 2024, they’ll have 4 more boosters and a regime of masks and goggles for everyone to wear. While they are jabbing the newborns in the nursery before mom and dad get to bond with them.
KSflatlander's Link
why would it or should it be treated differently than any other illness? if you have pneumonia or cancer or a serious case of the flu your deductibles and copays apply, why wouldn't it be the same for covid...especially when you have a free vaccine available. what a bunch of whiners.
Who’d a thunk it…Lol
total bs...life insurance can not and will not deny claim because a person dies of covid19.
After saying I wouldn't get it for months I decided to get it to help my severely immunocompromised Dad from being exposed. Those numbers suggest the vaccine does little to help prevent getting covid when exposed. Though it is clear it helps to prevent more severe cases in those who are vaccinated, that was not a concern of mine to begin with.
Keep it up fellas!
BowenAero's Link
