Thought I was/am a Bowhunter?
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
pav 10-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 10-Feb-21
yooper89 10-Feb-21
Scoot 10-Feb-21
Supernaut 10-Feb-21
orionsbrother 10-Feb-21
12yards 10-Feb-21
Rgiesey 10-Feb-21
Stringwacker 10-Feb-21
deserthunter 10-Feb-21
Pyrannah 10-Feb-21
wyobullshooter 10-Feb-21
Jackaroo 10-Feb-21
LBshooter 10-Feb-21
midwest 10-Feb-21
Pat Lefemine 10-Feb-21
Mt. man 10-Feb-21
Empty Freezer 10-Feb-21
Dale06 10-Feb-21
INDBowhunter2 10-Feb-21
midwest 10-Feb-21
Bake 10-Feb-21
trophyhill 10-Feb-21
Glunt@work 10-Feb-21
Scoot 10-Feb-21
x-man 10-Feb-21
lewis 10-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 10-Feb-21
x-man 10-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 10-Feb-21
paul@thefort 10-Feb-21
4nolz@work 10-Feb-21
bowhunt 10-Feb-21
LBshooter 10-Feb-21
LBshooter 10-Feb-21
Pat Lefemine 10-Feb-21
Scoot 10-Feb-21
Old School 10-Feb-21
TD 10-Feb-21
GF 10-Feb-21
Scoot 10-Feb-21
Grey Ghost 10-Feb-21
pav 10-Feb-21
Woods Walker 10-Feb-21
FORESTBOWS 10-Feb-21
sticksender 10-Feb-21
LINK 10-Feb-21
Glunt@work 10-Feb-21
sitO 10-Feb-21
Lawdy 10-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 10-Feb-21
Bou'bound 10-Feb-21
Spiral Horn 10-Feb-21
DanaC 10-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 10-Feb-21
Jaquomo 10-Feb-21
Lawdy 10-Feb-21
Royboy 10-Feb-21
Jaquomo 10-Feb-21
APauls 10-Feb-21
Stekewood 10-Feb-21
Bowhunter 10-Feb-21
JB 10-Feb-21
BOHNTR 10-Feb-21
greenmountain 11-Feb-21
pav 11-Feb-21
Live2Hunt 11-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 11-Feb-21
35-Acre 11-Feb-21
LINK 11-Feb-21
Jaquomo 11-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 11-Feb-21
orionsbrother 11-Feb-21
BULELK1 12-Feb-21
Rocky D 12-Feb-21
Bou'bound 12-Feb-21
Jackaroo 12-Feb-21
DanaC 12-Feb-21
Jaquomo 12-Feb-21
LBshooter 12-Feb-21
APauls 12-Feb-21
Jaquomo 12-Feb-21
Rocky D 12-Feb-21
Jaquomo 12-Feb-21
Supernaut 12-Feb-21
BOHNTR 12-Feb-21
Live2Hunt 12-Feb-21
Jackaroo 12-Feb-21
Jaquomo 12-Feb-21
Bake 12-Feb-21
wyobullshooter 12-Feb-21
LBshooter 12-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 12-Feb-21
Woods Walker 12-Feb-21
TD 12-Feb-21
Lawdy 12-Feb-21
Bake 12-Feb-21
DanaC 12-Feb-21
BOHNTR 12-Feb-21
JL 12-Feb-21
Live2Hunt 12-Feb-21
Jackaroo 12-Feb-21
Owl 12-Feb-21
Drnaln 12-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 12-Feb-21
Drnaln 12-Feb-21
Jaquomo 12-Feb-21
Jackaroo 12-Feb-21
TD 12-Feb-21
Jaquomo 12-Feb-21
wyobullshooter 12-Feb-21
Woods Walker 12-Feb-21
Owl 12-Feb-21
Jackaroo 13-Feb-21
Jackaroo 13-Feb-21
GF 13-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 13-Feb-21
Jaquomo 13-Feb-21
Owl 13-Feb-21
JL 13-Feb-21
GF 14-Feb-21
Grey Ghost 14-Feb-21
Rocky D 14-Feb-21
LBshooter 14-Feb-21
Jaquomo 14-Feb-21
Grey Ghost 14-Feb-21
Jaquomo 14-Feb-21
Owl 14-Feb-21
DanaC 15-Feb-21
Grey Ghost 15-Feb-21
Old School 15-Feb-21
Owl 15-Feb-21
Rocky D 15-Feb-21
Owl 15-Feb-21
Jackaroo 15-Feb-21
pav 15-Feb-21
Drnaln 15-Feb-21
LBshooter 15-Feb-21
pav 15-Feb-21
Rocky D 15-Feb-21
DanaC 15-Feb-21
badbull 15-Feb-21
LBshooter 15-Feb-21
Bou'bound 15-Feb-21
GF 15-Feb-21
pav 16-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 16-Feb-21
Live2Hunt 16-Feb-21
Rick 16-Feb-21
DanaC 16-Feb-21
Mike Turner 16-Feb-21
Jaquomo 16-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 16-Feb-21
Rocky D 16-Feb-21
RK 16-Feb-21
Mike Turner 16-Feb-21
Jaquomo 16-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 16-Feb-21
RK 16-Feb-21
RK 16-Feb-21
Rocky D 16-Feb-21
Live2Hunt 16-Feb-21
GF 16-Feb-21
pav 17-Feb-21
Will 17-Feb-21
RK 17-Feb-21
Mad Trapper 17-Feb-21
Jaquomo 17-Feb-21
shade mt 18-Feb-21
PECO 18-Feb-21
Will 18-Feb-21
Bigpizzaman 18-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 18-Feb-21
Jackaroo 18-Feb-21
GF 18-Feb-21
pav 19-Feb-21
Bowbender 19-Feb-21
Lawdy 19-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 20-Feb-21
Dclark 20-Feb-21
shade mt 20-Feb-21
Jeff Durnell 20-Feb-21
Will tell 20-Feb-21
Lawdy 20-Feb-21
GF 20-Feb-21
Lawdy 20-Feb-21
pav 20-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 21-Feb-21
Rocky D 21-Feb-21
Kevin Dill 21-Feb-21
Lawdy 21-Feb-21
Jackaroo 21-Feb-21
Glunt@work 21-Feb-21
GF 21-Feb-21
Jackaroo 21-Feb-21
Kevin Dill 21-Feb-21
Jackaroo 21-Feb-21
Jaquomo 21-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 22-Feb-21
From: pav
10-Feb-21
Turning 60 this year. Killed my first deer way back in my teenage years with a bow. Have been hooked on bowhunting ever since. Considered myself a bowhunter all these years, but that appears to be debatable these days. Here are some reasons why:

I hunt with a compound bow. I've never hunted big game with a rifle, but apparently that is a perceived prerequisite to hunting with a compound bow. The only living things I've killed with stickbows are fish....mostly carp.

I have nothing against crossbows as a weapon, just don't believe crossbows belong in archery seasons. I believe full crossbow inclusion will eventually make bowhunters a minority in seasons established for bowhunters. I'm opposed to that.

I am a proud regular member of P&Y and ENTER any qualifying animal I'm fortunate enough to tag in the P&Y record book.

I believe state bowhunting organizations are the grass roots backbone of the sport and refuse to bowhunt a state without joining said state bowhunting organization.

I primarily hunt PRIVATE land in my home state. I will hunt PRIVATE land out of state when the rare opportunity presents itself. (i.e not a dedicated public land hunter)

I apply for tags in areas I've never even seen...much less set foot in.

I like creating / managing food plots...and other habitat improvement projects.

I think trail cameras are cool!....at least on PRIVATE land where I use them.

I hunt from TREESTANDS alot....typically 20ft or higher.

I hunt from COMMERCIAL ground blinds....sometimes over water!

There are probably more reasons....but you get the gist.

I'm about as close to a charter member of Bowsite as one can get. Learned so much on this site over the years. Opened doors I might have never stepped through. Met some really great people here....including the owner and his Sitka sporting cohort. Hunted pronghorn with BB and elk with Bigdan. Made many cyber friends and had the good fortune to eventually meet several of them in person. Again, honestly considered myself a bowhunter all this time.

But there seems to be a growing trend here...becoming more and more pronounced. Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually on Bowsite...or if my computer switched over to Facebook by accident. People that don't even know me... apparently do not believe I'm a bowhunter at all. In their eyes, according to their own typed words, I am just a lazy, cheating hypocrite...a fraud if you will.

So, my apologies to all of you Bowsiters I have misled over the years by posing as the bowhunter I thought I was/am. I meant no harm.

10-Feb-21
One point, in most states where crossbows are legal for all during the general archery season..... bowhunters are already a minority. This is not something that will "eventually" happen, at least in those states.

From: yooper89
10-Feb-21
Hive mind runs strong on bowsite, there’s no doubt.

From: Scoot
10-Feb-21
Pav, there's no shortage of jerks in this world-- don't let them get to you.

From: Supernaut
10-Feb-21
Scoot X2. Broken down quite neatly in the simplest terms.

10-Feb-21
Yeah. Some people behind a keyboard get amped up and just spew their opinions and thoughts in a vitriolic manner. And they stand out in your mind.

I commute every morning and evening, traveling amongst thousands of other drivers. I don’t even give a thought to the overwhelming majority of normal drivers. The ones that stand out are the couple, or few, or half dozen that cut me off, drive recklessly or crash.

Hunt as you wish. Have fun. Be safe.

Thank you for supporting bow hunting organizations. You have nothing to apologize for... other than Bobby Knight of course.

From: 12yards
10-Feb-21
I agree with Scoot.

From: Rgiesey
10-Feb-21
Funny Pav. Lot of good people on here. A couple good bowhunters. Ha! Maybe a couple guys who don’t know as much as they think. You only have to be “a bowhunter” to you. Sounds to me like you are.

From: Stringwacker
10-Feb-21
I'm 63 and been shooting a traditional bow exclusively (no firearms) for over 40 years. As the former president of a states bowhunters association I can tell you that the overwhelmingly vast majority of stickbow shooters see the compound as a legitimate bow. Your a bowhunter.....something that I know I don't have to tell you.

Where the basis of malcontent exists, it's often based in seeing the compound bow as a transitional bridge to crossbow legalization. I happen to have this view but it's not a knock against compounds and it's certainly open to a lot of conjecture on my part. I think a little salt makes the stew better....but a lot of it ruins it; the latter representing my views on crossbows.

From: deserthunter
10-Feb-21
Lots of keyboard warriors out there. If we went back to the days when you had to insult people to their face it would be different. Nothing like the fear of getting punched in the throat to keep people civil. I for one sir generally enjoy your posts and comments.

From: Pyrannah
10-Feb-21
What is the growing trend here that I am missing?

I don’t really pay much attention to the noise, just curious

10-Feb-21
Paul, I agree with Scoot and FOREST. It used to bother me a lot too, but I’ve gotten somewhat better at tuning out the noise. I hunt with a compound and I know damn good and well I’m a bowhunter. Sure, there are some that have their heads so far up their behinds they see no difference between a compound and a crossbow, but as soon as they reveal their agenda they lose all credibility.

You, my friend, are most definitely a bowhunter in the true sense of the word. As the saying goes, don’t let the b@$t@rd’s get you down.

From: Jackaroo
10-Feb-21
A backhanded shaming of those you perceive having shamed you? Don’t let other people define who you are is the stronger play.

From: LBshooter
10-Feb-21
Pav anyone who goes into the woods with a arrow to hunt is a bow hunter. The air gun argument could be made, but if someone chooses that as their weapon then that's it. If the bowhunters start to choose who can hunt at what time of the season then that will surly bite us all in the arse. Hunt the way you hunt and don't worry about what others think or say, pretty easy.

From: midwest
10-Feb-21
Sorry, Paul, but you're a compgun hunter! lol

Agree with Scoot and Forest.

From: Pat Lefemine
10-Feb-21
I’ll echo pyrannah, what trend are you referring to? There’s always been dissent and strong opinions here back to our very first day in 1996. I may be blind to it but I’m not seeing any new trend emerging.

For what it’s worth I agree with your sentiments and despite having a miserable year (business wise) I still won’t accept crossbow ads.

PM me if it’s easier to discuss.

From: Mt. man
10-Feb-21
Shrug them off like water on one of Paul@thefort's geese backs. The keyboard warriors are not worth your time.

X6-7 to Scoot

10-Feb-21
Forestbows X5

From: Dale06
10-Feb-21
Yes, there are some opinionated people here and if you don’t do things the way they do, you’re not a bow hunter. And if you kill something with a bow, you cant feel as good about it because you don’t hunt the way they hunt. Don’t let those “little minded” guys bother you.

I guess forestbow above said what I’m saying only a little more succinctly.

10-Feb-21
What FORESTBOWS said sums it up pretty good.

Ain’t enough time in this life to worry much about what others think.

From: midwest
10-Feb-21
Ever notice how some guys can light up a room?

Just by leaving it? ;-)

From: Bake
10-Feb-21
I haven't seen any trend either, to tell the truth. But I'm with you. Although I don't really call myself a bowhunter anymore. I'm just a hunter.

98% of my big game hunting is with a bow, but I find myself picking up guns more often the last few years. I've grown to really enjoy late season muzzleloader hunting here in Missouri. I've even put in for a few rifle/muzzleloader tags out west the last two years. . . . Haven't drawn any yet, but I'm sure I will someday.

And if I ever draw some of those non-weapon specific once in a lifetime tags out west, I'll have a rifle along, although I'd prefer to use a bow only.

Crossbows, I've never even touched one. They just don't interest me for some reason.

I'm kind of a weird cat. I have always liked guns. Not just as a tool to hunt with, but as a machine that I can tinker with and enjoy the beauty of the machine itself. I can't figure out an engine or other machine parts, but guns click with me and I can work on them. I'm currently building a new home that will have some more room, and my daughter is getting older and less time intensive, and I'm considering getting back into reloading and load development. I think I'd really enjoy it since I can shoot out my backdoor

On the other hand, I can't figure out how a compound works :) And I don't really enjoy shooting a bow as much as shooting a gun. But again, with some more room and time at night, I'm thinking of buying a bow press and trying to teach myself to be a better hand at working on my own bows

BUT, I enjoy hunting with a bow, more than with a gun, due to the added elements of closeness, choosing when to draw, having to know exact yardage, etc. And the beauty of zipping an arrow through an animal thrills me to death.

Like I said, I'm weird.

10-Feb-21
Must have come from a Leatherwall elitist. Before you Leatherwall guys get all up in arms over that statement, it’s not all of you. All it takes is 1 ;) heck, I was accused of being unethical by a compound guy for merely bringing up 100 yard shots with a compound. Even though at the time I’d never even tried it.

From: Glunt@work
10-Feb-21
I've been here since almost the beginning. Always been big debates and always requires realizing it's an internet forum. The distance, anonymity and lack of tone that comes with debating stuff online makes it different than a conversation around the campfire.

From: Scoot
10-Feb-21
LB, I honestly have no idea who those jerks are. I'm not really sure it matters much. There's no doubt the world, particularly the internet, is full of jerks. Some people seem to get off on dragging others through the mud and/or explaining why "if you don't do it my way you're doing it the wrong way". It gets old... Pav's post suggested to me that he was letting those jerks, whoever they may be, get to him. I simply suggested he shrug it off and not worry about what they think.

From: x-man
10-Feb-21
I think the events of the outside world lately (away from the confines of Bowsite) have seemingly pissed off some of our regular posters. That rage has translated into the confines of Bowsite. What would have been normal good-natured banter a year ago has mutated into name calling and sometimes threatening behavior. Then we have some regulars smart enough to know the difference...stirring the pot...just for fun. Perhaps this isn't the year to stir the pot (Covid, vaccines, Trump losing, crossbows gaining popularity, riots, baiting, leases, ect...)

From: lewis
10-Feb-21
Damn I thought 2020 was in the rear view mirror I admit I have not noticed any particular trend on here wish I could say the same about our great country.Good luck Lewis

10-Feb-21
Pots need to be stirred, otherwise a scum layer forms at the top.

From: x-man
10-Feb-21
It's probably healthier to remove that scum, rather than to mix it back in... ;)

10-Feb-21
LOL

From: paul@thefort
10-Feb-21
Actually I have not met a person on this site that is not a bow hunter. Like the geese and ducks I hunt, I just let the water run off my back. my best, Paul

From: 4nolz@work
10-Feb-21
Why do you care what they think unless you are trying to change their minds or define bowhunter per your mindset.

From: bowhunt
10-Feb-21
I believe Forestbows has the best response.

You are obviously a bow hunter. Don’t let a few get you down. There can’t be more than 4-5 guys out of the whole bowsite community that could read your description of yourself and claim you aren’t a bow hunter.

Those same few probably also believe 2020 was filled with wonderful peaceful protest, the world is actually flat, and several other crazy ideas.

From: LBshooter
10-Feb-21
Scoot talks about assholes? What assholes is he talking about? Forest bows, says fuckem, who is he refering to? Doesn't sound like those are attitudes that show a cohesion of hunters who should all be on the same side.

From: LBshooter
10-Feb-21
Pav anyone who goes into the woods with a arrow to hunt is a bow hunter. The air gun argument could be made, but if someone chooses that as their weapon then that's it. If the bowhunters start to choose who can hunt at what time of the season then that will surly bite us all in the arse. Hunt the way you hunt and don't worry about what others think or say, pretty easy.

From: Pat Lefemine
10-Feb-21
Clean up the language. We still have kids that visit here. This isn’t Twitter or some other social media cesspool.

From: Scoot
10-Feb-21
"Scoot talks about jerks? What jerks is he talking about?"

LB, I responded to your question(s) above. If you need further clarification than that, then I don't think there's much point in me continuing to reply...

From: Old School
10-Feb-21
I guess I don’t see the vast problem pav - certainly not enough to start a thread about. There’s some bantering that goes back and forth. I’d say the political threads get a lot more heated than the trad vs compound vs crossbow.

I don’t really consider someone who chooses to use a crossbow an archery hunter - but that’s just my opinion and I leave it at that.

My youngest son shoots a recurve, I shoot a longbow or compound and my dads health forced him to a crossbow (he started out with a recurve then went to a compound.). He’s an archer. We all hunt together and get along just fine.

From: TD
10-Feb-21

I'm with Pat and others. I've seen it here, well since I've been here.... it's everywhere because people are who they are and are always going to be. But I don't really see any trend towards it. Bowsite is not unique in that.

In some ways I see kinda the opposite, folks in many areas are just looking for ways to be offended and shut down speech they don't want to hear rather than change the channel and move on. And yeah, some cases folks are looking to offend. People are funny critters.

In all honesty, often it's not meant the way it's typed. Sarcasm especially is hard to convey on a keyboard. Aaand, sometimes it is meant the way it's typed. Comes back to that people thang....

What is unique about bowsite is we are allowed a bit of latitude with our free speech. Many other sites..... not so much..... like that. Other's maybe not.

It's kinda like hunting clothing..... when things get chilly you can quit and go home, or throw on another layer and weather it out. Not gonna change the weather. Always pack lots of layers..... and be ready to head home when it gets really nasty.... =D

From: GF
10-Feb-21
@Don - Agreed. Lack of tone is a big part of it. People can make up all the animosity in the world when if they were in person they’d be laughing at themselves/each other.

But FWIW, suggesting that people would not dare disagree with you if you were standing face to face is BS. If the only way you can make your “point” in a debate is to threaten the opposition with physical violence, the honest response is to concede that you have no rational argument.

“ I have nothing against crossbows as a weapon, just don't believe crossbows belong in archery seasons. I believe full crossbow inclusion will eventually make bowhunters a minority in seasons established for bowhunters. I'm opposed to that.”

That’s how a lot of long-time Stickbow hunters (and those who came directly into Bowhunting without wheels) feel about compounds, and for the exact same reasons. Let-off (85% vs 100%); triggers (one mounted to a stock, one not); extended range capability; perceived ease of mastery... It’s the same point in each case, but the Compound Guys’ position is that Crossbows take it a step too far, and Stickbow shooters should shut the FUP because they’re in the minority and stating that the emperor has no clothes is liable to cost them some teeth.

Funny thing about a REPUBLIC is that minorities aren’t supposed to have their rights trampled by Mob Rule. Funny thing about being CONSERVATIVE is that you’re supposed to believe that things like Laws were originally conceived for good & sufficient reasons and that any subsequent changes to the laws should abide by not just the letter of the law, but the INTENT behind it.... and that when unforeseen developments subvert the Intent, thereby depriving a minority of the protections provided under the original law, then there should be corrective action taken to restore those rights and protections.

But around here, it’s those who are willing to play by the original rules of the game who are accused of being “entitled” or “elitist”. If it’s Elitist to accept the rules of the game AS CONCEIVED, whether that helps or (more likely) hurts your odds of “success” in order to keep the hunting pressure at a level that doesn’t stress the herds, I’m In.

I’d rather take my chances with a more “primitive” weapon and less pressure from other hunters, as the season was originally conceived. Open to ALL COMERS, as long as they are willing to abide by the rules as originally set forth. Compounds came in through a loophole which has grown bigger than the Eisenhower tunnel, and about the same percentage of “bowhunters” in CO use it on an annual basis.

From: Scoot
10-Feb-21
Language cleaned up per Pat's request. My apologies-- Pat's right and no need for me to use profanity above. My point stands, however, and there are no shortage of jerks in this world who are happy to pee on the Cheerios of anyone who they can. LB, if you need names as to who pee'd on Pav's Cheerios, I don't have them for you as I don't know the details of said peeing incident.

From: Grey Ghost
10-Feb-21
I was thinking the Bowsite had become kinda vanilla lately, compared to 20 years ago. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

Pav, perhaps you should be more concerned about being a man of obvious virtues, like honesty, kindness, sincerity, wisdom, integrity, etc....instead of worrying about labels based on what weapon you hunt with. Just a suggestion.

Matt

From: pav
10-Feb-21
WOW! My bad guys!

I know I'm a bowhunter. Have been all my life. I'm apparently NOT very good at projecting sarcasm using the written word! Forest's response was classic! Still laughing!

"Trend" was probably a poor choice of words. There have always been disagreements and there always will be disagreements. That's the way the world turns. Just seem like online disagreements are reaching higher levels of intensity as time goes by. Pretty sure most of what I'm talking about would never be said face to face. The keyboard has no fear....and seemingly no conscience.

We've lost some major contributors here. Others have toned their participation way down. That sucks! I can't help but think they just grew tired of the BS...and I don't mean Bowsite. Maybe I'm wrong?

From: Woods Walker
10-Feb-21
Do you hunt during bow season with a license and a weapon designated for your bow season? If yes, then you're a bowhunter.

Everything else is egos.

10-Feb-21
I hate using that language but I'm so sick of people bashing other people for the way they chose to legally hunt. Alot of great bow hunters have left this site because of it. And alot of guys who hunt flat ground once a year have replaced them thinking their way is the only true way. Pat accept my apology and erase my post if you think it's best.

From: sticksender
10-Feb-21
There are lots of guys who frequent this board who, when they type something, I want to read it. Pav is definitely one of those guys. On the opposite end of the spectrum are the bloviators who came from the CF after it got zapped a couple or three years back. Cant really grasp how those minds work. But I've gotten better at ignoring that stuff most of the time, and focus on the contributions here that I find useful.

From: LINK
10-Feb-21
Most of us on here have our opinions and like to share them. As pav does I don’t care what you hunt with. It’s just my opinion arrow guns are not archery and don’t belong in archery season.

Those that think that compounds aren’t archery are just trying to justify their ego because they know their trophy room doesn’t justify it.

From: Glunt@work
10-Feb-21
Allowing speedboats is a great way to increase participation in the annual "Canoe Days" festival but I get why the canoe paddlers aren't on board.

From: sitO
10-Feb-21
We all know what hunting is, and what it isn't...not hard to discern.

From: Lawdy
10-Feb-21
We are all bow hunters but there are different groups of bow hunters. I am a longbowman, period. My brother swears by his Kodak recurve. My father swore by recurves and Gramps loved lemonwood longbows Others are compounders. I haven’t figured out what a cross bow hunter is yet as they are locked and loaded all the time. Pretty hard to walk around with a longbow at full draw all the time.

10-Feb-21
The compound bow is hand drawn and shoots an arrow. They have been accepted during general archery seasons for about 50 years. Yes they have advanced, but they are still hand drawn and shoot arrows. I am good with that.

From: Bou'bound
10-Feb-21
Not too many people truly don’t care what somebody somewhere n their life thinks about them. You’d have to be pretty damn lonely to be so inwardly focused that no other humans opinion of you mattered to you.

But the number of people who give two flips about what some fake named strangers in an internet chat room think is mind blowing. Talk about sweating the small stuff...... it does not get any smaller than what a bunch of people You don’t know and never will know think about you. It’s comical

From: Spiral Horn
10-Feb-21
The one thing we all have in common is that we are hunters. Threads and discussions are usually most productive when seen through that lens. Been hunting my entire life and about 95% of that with a compound bow - it usually gives me the biggest level of satisfaction and I’ve always enjoyed it. But just because I bowhunt doesn’t make me a better person, more dedicated hunter or grant me a greater right to pursue game. Everything beyond being a hunter is just a matter of preference, and if we all got to institute a new restriction based on our favorite pet peeve, things would be pretty miserable for everyone.

I love bowsite as a place to share information. Biggest negative trend I’ve seen is folks taking shots at postings of successful hunts — usually nitpicking over some stylistic point they don’t personally approve of - or juvenile comments that hijack the post. Know a number of folks who used to be a fountain of info on bowsite and at least one former sponsor who no longer post here as they just got tired of the BS.

From: DanaC
10-Feb-21
There's a difference between a 'bow hunter' and a 'bow ONLY hunter' and there are people who give a damn about the difference. The 'Only's' are all too often full of themselves. I ain't one of them.

10-Feb-21
I think one should be a "bow only" hunter during bow and arrow seasons, the rest is generally covered by lessor weapon laws and gun seasons.

From: Jaquomo
10-Feb-21
I got severely bashed on our "sister" trad site years ago when I was advocating shooting carbon arrows from my longbows and recurves. One idiot even posted, "Why don't you just shoot a compound. We don't need people like you in our sport". I decided to stay away from that site. Life is too short.

From: Lawdy
10-Feb-21
Jaq, now just about everyone shoots carbon. I, personally have always shot wood, but I started over 60 years ago, and like making my own arrows. Plus, I am cheap. Whoever told you that was a arrogant ass.

From: Royboy
10-Feb-21
I try to ignore some posts here but mostly enjoy everything. I lurk a lot and mostly feel not knowledgeable on a majority of posts. Have met bowsiters myself and always enjoyed them.

From: Jaquomo
10-Feb-21
Lawdy, the thread was was brutal. Then a few years later George D. Stout proclaimed them as acceptable, and they became so. I've shot trad most of my long life, and I dislike a large number of trad shooters who believe it is a religion.

From: APauls
10-Feb-21
I get the sarcasm abs you’re obviously a bow hunter. But on the other hand - who really cares what someone else thinks? If what someone on Bowsite thinks alters anything about the way you hunt that’s a problem.

From: Stekewood
10-Feb-21
“George D. Stout proclaimed them as acceptable, and they became so.”

That’s funny.

From: Bowhunter
10-Feb-21
GF couldn’t have said it any better!

From: JB
10-Feb-21
Pav - you are definitely a bowhunter AND you are not wrong. Your post, whether sarcastic or not, has gotten a few people thinking. I always say there's the 10 percent rule. 10 out of 100 will tend to be jerks especially when they are behind a keyboard. That being said, there's still 90 out of 100 that are good. I'm sticking with the 90.

From: BOHNTR
10-Feb-21
I know a guy from IN that came out west on a mule deer hunt in an area he’s never hunted (Kaibab-AZ) ......asked me a few questions on some general stuff about the unit. I was happy to help, as he was also a fellow P&Y member and a fellow ‘old guy’ from this site. He came out to the plateau, hunted the area and arrowed a 5x5 mule deer from a treestand! Got to meet up with him and enjoy his success at his camp. Yup, he’s a bowhunter on my book! ??

11-Feb-21
I think we are all tired of Covid and politics . We see ourselves being closed out from private land more and more so it is natural to want to lash out. It doesn't make sense to attack those with a different perspective on the same interest. Why would you attack another person who advocates for keeping value in woods clean water and a real respect for wildlife. I know a few non hunters who manage their woodlots to keep the creatures fed. There are those who want to shut hunting down because they don't like it but that is a different group and probably will never understand the value of time in the woods.

From: pav
11-Feb-21
I know a guy from AZ that shortened my learning curve on the Kaibab. Then brought his family to my deer camp to visit before I left for home. Meant alot!

From: Live2Hunt
11-Feb-21
I'm not sure what your meaning is for this thread? I don't know of anyone who would say you are not a bowhunter using a compound. I went back to a recurve myself, but would never think of putting someone down for using a compound as it is still a bow. If you shoot it like you shoot a bow, it is a bow. If you shoot it like a gun, it is a gun. I would put this effort into the next non-archery piece of equipment coming down the line, the airbow. Evidently Michigan is fighting this for the second time. The legislators are 100% for it. Luckily the last time the Gov. shut it down. But they are at it again the way it sounds. I am not from Mich, but want to stop any of this if we can. The xgun is lost and ended bowhunting as we knew it. Bowhunting (all equipment shot like a bow) is done or will be soon. Some of us hunt with a bow during extended gun seasons.

11-Feb-21
I’m a bow hunter. I’ve killed quite a few deer with traditional bows. I’ve killed a LOT of deer with a compound Scatter in elk and bear too.

I also gun hubt and Love it.

I’m just a hunter that rolls with the seasons. Enjoying what God blesses me the opportunity to enjoy.

Sounds like we are all the same.

From: 35-Acre
11-Feb-21
I haven't read all of the replies, I skimmed them. Probably because of the bickering and keyboard warriors that are now on here. They weren't hear years ago, or things have changed. Regardless I find myself spending less and less time on bowsite because the lack of helpful responses.

If I had the time/funds, I would consider engaging in something similar to "the club" that has recently risen to mainstream media. It's a social network that is invite only (which is about where I would stop) Of course, "the club" is quite a bit more than that (it's video chats in open rooms with moderators - basically people who open the room when they are on). There are social rules of participation. You can get un-invited/muted/and so on.

From: LINK
11-Feb-21
Bou I’ve never met you. I couldn’t pick you out of a lineup of cat hunters. That said I feel like I know you pretty well. ;)

From: Jaquomo
11-Feb-21
That same bowhunter from AZ, formerly from CA, put me onto a really good Coues spot on my first AZ hunt, and asked for nothing in return. I always try to pay it forward in life, and he does too.

Plenty of bowhunters on this and our "sister" forum who snidely or openly denigrate those who hunt with a compound vs. what they refer to as a "real bow". See it in posts. I was treated to some genuine anger by a couple "real bow" friends when I decided to try a compound just to see what it was like. Very nearly ruined our friendship but they eventually got over it.

Pretty sure these are the sorts of hunters Paul is referring to. It's just as bad in the fly fishing world.

11-Feb-21
I always thought a "real bow" was one where the string was pulled by hand, and it shot arrows. The P&Y defines it well. Did the definition change?

11-Feb-21
I haven’t been around as long as many guys, but I’ve bounced around here for a while. There are plenty of guys on this site that I think very highly of. Similar to what some have mentioned, there are guys on this thread who’ve gone out of their way to show kindness to my kids and shared information and contacts. I will always be grateful. Enjoy the good guys, disregard those that seem to be having a bad day or a bad life.

From: BULELK1
12-Feb-21
Geez Paul,

I just read your OP statement.

Keep the faith buddy,

Robb

From: Rocky D
12-Feb-21
I never diss other hunters but I tell a lot of fledgling hunters that if they want to hunt with a crossbow then they are choosing another method and another season. I tell them if they choose the bow then they are learning a whole new skill set. Normally, I caveat it with not all hunters can become bowhunters.

From: Bou'bound
12-Feb-21
Rocky not dissing the others is exactly the right way. I am sure those new fledgling hunters appreciate you telling them where the swim lanes are and that not everyone can become a bowhunter. That encouragement goes a long way.

From: Jackaroo
12-Feb-21
Same argument between fly fishermen and bait fisherman. Do what you want it’s semi free world now, but don’t pretend that bait fishing is harder or as much of an art as fly fishing. Sitting in a tree and using trail cams with a wheel bow is archery hunting by legaldefinition but it is nowhere near the art of hunting on the ground with a stick bow.

From: DanaC
12-Feb-21
Jackaroo, there's a time and place for different equipment and techniques. Flies suck when you need to get deep. Yeah, I love meeting a hatch, but hauling cod off the bottom 200 feet down is fun too. And I like my rifle as much as my recurve.

From: Jaquomo
12-Feb-21
Jackaroo, there you go. Who cares which is superior, hunting from a tree or on the ground? Why even throw that out there?

As someone who has taken a lot of big animals on the ground with a longbow and recurve, I can attest that it isn't an "art" in any form. It's simply a process some choose, but that doesn't elevate us to some higher metaphysical plane because of our choice. Nor does it make someone who chooses a treestand any less of a hunter.

From: LBshooter
12-Feb-21
The argument the compound Hunter crowd makes for crossbows is the same argument traditional bowhunters could make about compounds. So if you all want a different season for crossbows fine, then when your deciding when crossbows can be used, then figure the same period of time for compounds. As far as what P&Y define a bow doesn't really matter, because I can assure you they will change for crossbows as they did for compounds. When the majority of hunters are going into the woods with crossbows P&Y will want members and they will change or make a special classification if they haven't already. Go hunt the way you want to, from a tree, the ground or a hole in the ground, use the weapon you want as long as it's legal, I don't care. But, if your going to call for special season for high tech weapons then be careful what you wish for, because compounds have certainly become high tech and make bow hunting easier for the average guy. Sights,release and let off and a new shooter can start plugging bulleyes at 30 yards out of the gate. If you all are worried about herd numbers then campaign for 2/3 of the season to be for traditional archery, and the last 1/3 for all other bows, compounds and crossbows and I guareenteed you herds will grow. Somehow I don't see the compound crowd going for that, hmmm, wonder why?

From: APauls
12-Feb-21
I have literally never heard of a difference in superiority based on how you fish lol. Man that’s funny. People will do anything to elevate themselves.

From: Jaquomo
12-Feb-21
Hmmm, maybe because archery hunting in any form is not considered a significant wildlife population management tool?

Crossbows have nothing to do with herd numbers. Even with the explosion in midwestern states, the total crossbow kill is insignificant compared to the gun harvest. In the West, it is about crowding, and about increased competition for limited tags.

From: Rocky D
12-Feb-21
Unfortunately, if we cannot see hunters as equals as long as we are constantly measuring to gloat that I am better. The question is whether you are better than you were yesterday. Many of the people always judging are not comfortable in their own hierarchies and are constantly seeking reassurance. Art for me is being one with nature not determining that my methods are more ethical, difficult, or requires more discipline.

What one man does does affect me. I wonder if Terry Bradshaw hates what Tom Brady is achieving or is he enjoying the art. What you choose to hunt with is your choice! If you choose a recurve it doesn’t make the compound guy wrong. If I choose to carry a crossbow and the states allow it then your issue is with the state!

Emotionally charged arguments are not nearly as effective as well presented ones. If we cannot frame the discussion to our favor then bowhunters lose every time! If we go to dividing ourselves we will lose every time!

What we should be discussing is how we band together to try to shape the future instead of being overwhelmed by reaction drills. In the Army we had battle drills to react to contact but with hunters it’s a melee that ends up a reaction drill. This is not the case with the hunting community. We are typically very disorganized and with little in numbers, funding, and no organization’s name on a lexicon. What makes it even more difficult is that we have to address all hunting types while not becoming to disenfranchised. You want the issue to go in your favor but without the disintegration of the union!

From: Jaquomo
12-Feb-21
APauls, you should see the distain on fly fishing forums toward guys who use Tenkara rods (no reel). And toward people who fish with nymphs and a bobb... oops, "indicator".

From: Supernaut
12-Feb-21
APauls X2 regarding the fishing superiority. I'm sure glad I don't frequent any fishing forums LOL.

From: BOHNTR
12-Feb-21

BOHNTR's Link
LBshooter:

Sorry, but I believe you are incorrect in your predictions. P&Y will not concede to crossbows and their inclusion into the archery seasons and/or records program. Is there a place for crossbows? Absolutely. Just like there’s a place for muzzleloader, flintlocks, shotguns and rifles. Some crossbow advocates have realized this and with the permission and assistance of B&C and P&Y, have now established their own records program, which is what has been suggested for years. The Bolt and Quarrel Club is their records keeping organization which only allow crossbow taken animals using the same B&C/P&Y scoring system....even they have realized there is a difference, which is not a negative.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Feb-21
The issue with xguns is not that they are legal now, it is the fact they pushed them through to be legal and to top it off are trying to pass them as a bow for use in what was an archery season. If you shoot it like a gun, it's a gun. If you shoot it like a bow, it's a bow. Pretty simple. All archery seasons were set up to allow some hunting but limit the kill during a vulnerable time in an animals life. Not a slaughter like some want.

From: Jackaroo
12-Feb-21

Jackaroo's embedded Photo
Jackaroo's embedded Photo
Jackaroo's embedded Photo
Jackaroo's embedded Photo
Jaq . Two pictures of Mike Tyson one is a drawing one is a photo they are both produced by artists. I doubt the photographer could to do the drawing but I am very certain that both artist could take the photo. See the difference?

From: Jaquomo
12-Feb-21
Geez, I didn't know Mike Tyson was a bowhunter. I'm a writer and understand the difference between craft and art. Craft is putting all the pieces together correctly, while art is interpreting and creating something unusually appealing, from a unique perspective. Most photographers are simply craftsmen. As are many painters and writers. Shooting an animal with an arrow has nothing to do with "art", irrespective of weapon choice.

Fly fishing is also often referred to as "art" by dilettantes who imagine themselves as superior beings. But it is not art, simply a craft, and fly fishermen are not special or superior.

From: Bake
12-Feb-21
Oh my. . . . we're bringing ART into this. . . .

Your comparison doesn't compute.

And I agree, people will do anything to elevate themselves. I get that to some degree, humans are competitive. But I also personally believe it shows an innate inferiority complex. EDIT: I'm not saying competitive people have inferiority complexes. I'm saying that people who constantly have to point out that they are better, or how they do it is better, have innate inferiority complexes

12-Feb-21
Just when you think narcissism’s a dying “art”...

From: LBshooter
12-Feb-21
Bohntr, in twenty years from now the rate at which crossbows are going the vast majority will be using xbows ar airguns etc... So when P&Y has very few if any trophies being added to the books and members dropping off what do you think they'll do to stay relevant? Will they just die off and leave the books for history or will they change to continue the group? I suggest they will change to stay relevant. The new generation is growing up with crossbows and therefore years from now they will be using weapons that will be considered the norm, P&Y will change. With all the bad press crossbows get by the hunting community and still the number of hunters walk into the woods with a xbow. I hunt public in Illinois, I am a minortiy at the parking lots with my trad gear vs the xbow crowd. 90% yes 90 % are carrying xbows.5 years from now if not sooner I don't think I'll see a compound.

12-Feb-21
I believe LB to be correct. It is never a good business plan to continually cater to a declining audience.

From: Woods Walker
12-Feb-21
LOL! Pat should have another Bowsite topic category for this kind of stuff called, "CABIN FEVER"!

From: TD
12-Feb-21
The signaling is strong with the virtuous ones.........

I run into many artists with basic aversions to dealing with dead animals... starving artists I think they are called.....

From: Lawdy
12-Feb-21
Speaking of fishing, I am a huge fan of dynamite.

From: Bake
12-Feb-21
I prefer the old crank telephone for fishing.

Or a good hoop net

Actually I just heard these were good, from a friend

From: DanaC
12-Feb-21
Thinking that bow hunting is an 'art' convinces me that pot should remain illegal. ;-)

From: BOHNTR
12-Feb-21
LBshooter:

Are you a member?

From: JL
12-Feb-21
This is the way I look at the OP question. This avoids getting bottled up in a category and being a slave to one method over another.

"Hunter (huhn-ter) noun:

1. a person that hunts game: see Randy Newberg."

From: Live2Hunt
12-Feb-21
ar·cher·y /?ärCH(?)r?/ Learn to pronounce noun the sport or skill of shooting with a bow and arrows, especially at a target.

From: Jackaroo
12-Feb-21
Definition of art 1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation

From: Owl
12-Feb-21
By definition, any output derivative of human cognition is art. So, yeah, your bowhunting is art. But, no one cares. Your art is meaningless except to you and that is as it should be because the judgement of art is subjective.:)

From: Drnaln
12-Feb-21
Sure seems like a lot of threads end up about cross-bows & P & Y going away if they don't start accepting cross-bow entries! I really don't believe P & Y should or will start accepting animals taken with a cross-bow & I would rather see it lose membership or have to exist with less critters entered then see cross-bows accepted. Some of the posters on this subject aren't even supporters of P & Y now but constantly have to add their 2 cents!

12-Feb-21
Unfortunately the entries are likely getting polluted with crossbow kills.

From: Drnaln
12-Feb-21
Unfortunately the entries are likely getting polluted with crossbow kills.

Why would anyone even say that?

From: Jaquomo
12-Feb-21
So a dog that learns to poop and pee outside is the epitome of an "artist". Wow.

From: Jackaroo
12-Feb-21
No dogs cannot abstract reason they are conditioned.

From: TD
12-Feb-21
We had a dog that used to eat wrapping paper, ribbons and Christmas tree ornaments..... I'm sure many art elitists would have called it art.... was colorful and often sparkly.... and the dog was often full of it.....

From: Jaquomo
12-Feb-21
If dogs can't create art, which is highly subjective, then I guess the threshold for accepted, celebrated art is a crucifix in a jar of urine at a famous New York gallery. Like hunting on the ground with a longbow, only different.

12-Feb-21
My dog ate our granddaughter’s birthday cake and pooped blue for four days. Guess that could be considered art. He’d never eaten cake before so it couldn’t be conditioned. He must’ve reasoned “Dang, that looks and smells really good. I think I’ll eat it!”

From: Woods Walker
12-Feb-21
"No dogs cannot abstract reason....."

You've obviously never had a Shetland Sheep dog!

From: Owl
12-Feb-21
M-W's definition of "art"

"1: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation

2 : a branch of learning:

3: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill

4a: the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects"

From: Jackaroo
13-Feb-21
WW you don’t understand what abstract reasoning is. Have the sheepdog explain it to you.

From: Jackaroo
13-Feb-21
WW you don’t understand what abstract reasoning is. Have the sheepdog explain it to you.

From: GF
13-Feb-21
Holy Runnin’ Off the Rails, Batman!

“ maybe because archery hunting in any form is not considered a significant wildlife population management tool?”

Actually, Lou...

Out here, it’s pretty much the primary tool. There is so much private land, so little Public, and so much of the Hunting happens in the suburbs, that firearms just are not suitable. They might be safe enough - when used correctly - but the societal tolerance for them is nil.

So where there are not enough tags being filled, it only makes sense to make the season as lengthy and as “accessible” as possible, and if that means crossbows, the deer managers are going to push for inclusion. Which they have done.

Where there are not enough tags to go around, it only makes sense to tighten the limits on the tech until supply and demand hit equilibrium.

I’m not going to argue Art vs Craft. I do know that for most people, sitting up in a tree is a more efficient hunting method than moving around on the ground. Not that you will fill a lot of tags with your butt parked in the wrong tree....

It’s easy to point at releases and let off as being the big advance in archery that has caused participation in the season to go through the roof, but JMO, it’s really more about the rangefinders. I fooled around with a pretty fast compound for a couple of years, and at unknown yardage, I was scoring lower on a 3-D course with the compound than I usually do with a recurve. That was shooting from the “trad” stake, so a lot of shots between 20 and 35. I could have learned to estimate yardage better, but it was easier and more enjoyable to just improve my shooting, and honestly I’m pretty sure I’m more likely to be effective with a stick.

So (apart from the fact that it took me a while to get here), can I complain that compounds are “too effective”? Maybe not.... But they ARE way too freakin’ popular...

13-Feb-21
There have been many excellent perspectives by bow and arrow hunters on this thread. Any conclusions or potential problems closer to being solved? And yes, the East is much different than the West. Whitetail deer in the east are almost like diseased vermin in some areas, a bit sparse where the snow deepens and the wolves frolic.

From: Jaquomo
13-Feb-21
GF, I stand corrected WRT Connecticut. Many things are upside down in your state. ;-)

MW needs to update their definition to reflect 21st century wokeness. Nevertheless, by their definition, a skilled crossbow hunter is an "artist". Who doesn't want more "artists" in our sport?

From: Owl
13-Feb-21
"Who doesn't want more "artists" in our sport?"

-Apparently, many, if not not most current practitioners. It borders on a self-loathing pathology. It is woefully embarrassing and tragically unaware for a markedly shrinking demographic to argue the nuance between a vertical, trigger activated platform at 85% let-off and a horizontal, trigger activated platform at 100% let-off. Not too much future in that especially when the heavier trigger dynamics all but erase any benefit of 100% let-off. JMHO

From: JL
13-Feb-21

JL's Link
FWIW....it looks like Concept Archery makes a 99% let-off vert bow. I didn't know there were 100% let-off crossbows.

From: GF
14-Feb-21
“ FWIW....it looks like Concept Archery makes a 99% let-off vert bow.”

Also looks like there are damn few takers and they’re going/have gone bankrupt. Lotta good their lifetime warranty will do you at that rate....

From: Grey Ghost
14-Feb-21
Lou, I thought this might give you a chuckle.

Matt

From: Rocky D
14-Feb-21

Rocky D's embedded Photo
Rocky D's embedded Photo
“ Apparently, many, if not not most current practitioners. It borders on a self-loathing pathology. It is woefully embarrassing and tragically unaware for a markedly shrinking demographic to argue the nuance between a vertical, trigger activated platform at 85% let-off and a horizontal, trigger activated platform at 100% let-off. Not too much future in that especially when the heavier trigger dynamics all but erase any benefit of 100% let-off.”

I have not seen a greater misuse of three and four syllable words to be wrong on both assumptions.

Here is what a horizontal bow achieved with the first shot at eighty yards. Believe me shooting a Ravin crossbow is like shooting a gun!

From: LBshooter
14-Feb-21
And compound shooters like Levi Morgan, Tim wells can do the same at 80-100 yards, so what does that mean?

From: Jaquomo
14-Feb-21
Byron Ferguson can outshoot most compound shooters with his longbow. What does that mean?

From: Grey Ghost
14-Feb-21
He’s sick.

From: Jaquomo
14-Feb-21
GG, love Hank Patterson! I patterned my teaching style after his. And I never nymph with bobbers when anyone else is watching, because it would be like bringing a crossbow to a trad shoot where everyone is wearing plaid flannel, fedoras, and a custom sheath knife on their belt.

From: Owl
14-Feb-21
RockyD, taking it at face value a one-off anecdote still does not negates the nominal differences between compounds and crossbows.

From: DanaC
15-Feb-21
Some years back at a fly fishing show I met a very well-known tyer and author of several books. (You'd recognize the name and probably have at least one of his books if you tie.) I mentioned that I was fooling around with foam-backed flies and he huffed up about his use of natural materials only and matching the hatch, blahblahblah. Two books later he was arguing the merits of a totally unrealistic 'attractor' pattern. I tend to take 'purists' with a huge grain of salt ;-)

From: Grey Ghost
15-Feb-21
Owl, I have to disagree with you. The obvious difference that you left out is a compound bow is held at full draw by the shooter. Regardless of the let-off, a shooter cannot hold a compound at full draw indefinitely like he can a crossbow. That is not a minor nuance, IMO.

Also, the comparisons between Levi Morgan and a first time crossbow shooter are silly. It's not like Levi was shooting 80 yard bullseyes the first time he picked up a compound bow. But, I'm sure a competent marksman could easily do that with a crossbow.

Matt

From: Old School
15-Feb-21
The whole crossbow vs compound comparison is really laughable. Have an average joe pick up a crossbow and take an 80 yard shot, then have him pick up a compound and take an 80 yard shot. Are there any here that would bet that his shots would be close accuracy wise? - didn’t think so. Stop making the comparison, you just make yourself look silly.

If you hate on anything that isn’t “trad” well that’s ok, just stop trying to prove a compound and a crossbow are equal, it’s foolishness for so many reasons.

From: Owl
15-Feb-21
RockyD, taking it at face value a one-off anecdote still does not negates the nominal differences between compounds and crossbows.

From: Rocky D
15-Feb-21
Owl, obviously this is something you personally no very little about. Not only is the compound more physically demanding the arrow is in contact for a much longer period of time with the bow which in turn requires tremendous follow through to not impact the arrow’s flight. Let’s not beat the fact to death too much that you have to draw the bow in the animals presence but let’s talk about the shooting process. The only muscle memory required to shoot the crossbow is basically trigger pull.

The compound requires muscle memory with both the left and the right arm. Most special operations units will tell you that it takes around twelve hundred rounds to start developing muscle memory with an AR platform and another twelve hundred rounds once a quarter to maintain that muscle memory. The crossbow guy can store his bow all year and pull it out and confirm zero and go hunt. Let me know how this works with a compound. I spent my first 24 years of government service executing training strategies and the last twenty developing training strategies for every thing from M4s, missiles, to sniper weapon systems and the foundation of all of them was repetitive reinforcement of basic fundamentals. There is a reason that there is the saying that goes “don’t be afraid of the guy who knows a thousand moves but be wary of the guy that practiced one move a thousands of times.

Fundamentally, shooting a compound is in an of itself an extremely complicated process when you break it down into teachable terms. The trouble with most of the discussions on here is that we develop our position based on predetermined biases which control our conclusions.

Many times these conclusions are caveated with IMO and IMHO when in actuality the individual making them has little experience to draw upon to make an informed decision. Bowsite is a bastion of very informed people on a variety of subjects but that doesn’t mean that they can discuss all topics equally with the same level of competence.

Oh, by the way, you do have great use of the King’s English.

From: Owl
15-Feb-21
"The crossbow guy can store his bow all year and pull it out and confirm zero and go hunt. Let me know how this works with a compound." - Quite well from what I've seen. As a matter of fact, I bet you may have described the approach used by a very high percentage, if not the majority, of compound shooters.

BTW, RockyD, why are you citing the importance of developing muscle memory with the AR platform to decry the need for developing muscle memory with fundamentally the same platform? I'll tell you why - fallacious arguments tend to eat themselves.

From: Jackaroo
15-Feb-21

From: pav
15-Feb-21
Crossbows were initially legalized in Indiana during archery season only for those with a physical disability which prevented them from drawing 35lbs using a hand held bow...including compound bows. People that can't physically draw hand held bows can shoot crossbows. There is an absolute difference in physical requirements to shoot a compound bow versus a crossbow. What else really needs to be said here?

From: Drnaln
15-Feb-21
This ^^^^^^^ Another big difference is you have to draw a compound bow while a critter is in range. That movement messes things up lots of times for bow hunters. A cross-bow is already cocked, loaded & ready to shoot so no movement is needed. Except to pull the trigger! Pretty simple to figure the difference!

From: LBshooter
15-Feb-21
A buddy of mine wanted to start bowhunting, so I took him shooting one do at a local range. He tried and tried to shoot a traditional bow, but was unable to get the hang of it let alone hit the target. So the following weekend went to bass pro and he bought a bow tech with sights, release, arrows etc... After the bow shop guy set it all up we went up to the range. First shot was a bullseye at 30 yards, and the rest of the arrows were centered within a pie plate, first time shooting. Now, he pulls out the bow a few weeks before the season and shoots alittle here and there and makes sure the sights are on, puts it way until hunting trips start. Technology helps replace skill.

From: pav
15-Feb-21
What the hell do you want to hear LBshooter? I don't think anyone is arguing the skill level it takes to shoot accurately with a stickbow versus a compound. That does NOT make the compound a freaking crossbow! I still have to physically draw 70lbs to get my compound to full draw. I still have to hold my compound in one hand with an extended arm. I still have to anchor to a bowstring. None of that strength or motion is required to cock and shoot a crossbow. i.e. my compound is one heck of alot closer to your stickbow than my dad's crossbow is to my compound.

From: Rocky D
15-Feb-21
Owl, why the comparison, because the ARs are typically the only weapons that are shot with enough frequency to develop true muscle memory. Specially one would only shoot with that much ammunition and frequency for firing techniques that support close quarters battle. More specifically, room to room.

These techniques require significant amounts of muscle memory, very much like a compound. This is the same reason that the compound requires much more muscle memory than shooting a crossbow. This is just one of the reasons why the compound is significantly more difficult to shoot!

From: DanaC
15-Feb-21
LB Shooter, I'll agree that a compound can get an archer on deer-size targets at modest range way faster than a stickbow. BUT, not many x-bow orcompound shooters *master* their weapon - learning to shoot it to it's full lethal capability. The SAME THING can be said about stickbows. Or shotguns, or rifles for that matter. A 308 rifle is deadly to 1000 yards, but there isn't one in a thousand rifle hunters who could make that shot. People talk as if shooting a 300 score at 20 yards is *easy* but look at how many (FEW) do it consistently. Go look at the scores for a typical 3D shoot and it will appall you how many *average* shooters have a hard time averaging 8 points per target. In ANY class. Yeah, the crossbow is easier to shoot further, but I'd bet that 95% of the people who pick one up will _never_ realize its full potential. Same as any other weapon.

That being said, MY objection to crossbows in archery deer season remains the sane different *skill sets* required to shoot well.

From: badbull
15-Feb-21
Jaq, I like what you point out regarding the fly fishing only bunch. I've noticed that they don't seem to even acknowledge my presence when I am tossing lures..... Badbull

From: LBshooter
15-Feb-21
Pav, what's with the anger? Maybe a beer or whatever it takes to calm down lol. I am not saying that because I shoot trad I'm better, not my argument at all. What I'm disgusted with is that compound guys have the balls to bitch and moan every year about crossbow Hunters. Saying that xbows aren't achery hunters is crap. If you as a compound shooter are going to try and say who belongs in archery season and that they aren't archery than I fully disagree. Your compound bow is at the highest point in technology I'm not sure They can improve it any longer. Your compound is closer to a xbow than anything else, and the difference between yours and a xbow is one's held vertically and a one horizontal, with the exception of one, which is a vertical xbow. My position is hunt they way you want to hunt and leave others to hunt they want to hunt, it shouldn't affect you in any way. The pot calling the kettle black fits in this situation I think. Is there much of a difference with a cocked crossbow vs the compound Hunter who draws their bow and waits mins for the animal to get into their shooting lane? The future is crossbows, and they ain't going away, so to all the compound snobs it's time to worry about what you do and not others. I give two S%#*Swhat you hunt with. I will use my trad gear until the day comes when I'm unable to shoot it for whatever reason, and when that day comes I'll buy whatever is easiest for me to use and continue the hunt.

From: Bou'bound
15-Feb-21
People are amazing. Best entertainment going. Trying to figure them out. It’s a blast.

From: GF
15-Feb-21
Most people are EASY to figure out.

In this case, whatever they prefer to use themselves is The Limit. Anyone who wants to use anything more “advanced“ is just an opportunistic game-hog cashing in on their season. And anyone who says that they are over the line is just a worthless, elitist SOB who “never kills anything anyway“.

Of course, if you grew up in a state where the assumption was that bow hunters would kill very few animals, and therefore there was no reason to limit tag sales for the season because very few people would choose to participate… That IS the whole point of the exercise.

In a way, the guys who brag about how many animals they’ve killed and how effective they are....are providing the perfect argument for why their equipment should be banned for use in a season which was intended to have minimal impact on management policy.

From: pav
16-Feb-21
LBshooter - "Your compound is closer to a xbow than anything else, and the difference between yours and a xbow is one's held vertically and a one horizontal, with the exception of one, which is a vertical xbow. "

I would offer the crossbow is closer to a gun than a compound. The way it is held, aimed and fired. Ready to shoot at any given time by disengaging the safety mechanism. Again, my compound is absolutely closer to your stickbow than my dad's crossbow is to my compound. Put four pictures in front of a five year old...someone shooting a stickbow, compound bow , crossbow and firearm...and then ask the five year old to match the photos that are alike.

Some of my best friends and hunting partners are dedicated stickbow shooters. They have a totally different perception of the compound and fought side by side with the compound shooters against crossbow liberalization here in Indiana. They get it. Crossbows primarily bring gun hunters into archery season and take a huge toll on new bowhunter recruitment. The incentive for a firearm hunter to pick up a stickbow or a compound bow in Indiana is now gone due to crossbow liberalization.

LBshooter: "Pav, what's with the anger?"

It's not anger...it is frustration. Whether you see it or not, there is a bigger picture happening with crossbows liberalization...and it's going to get alot worse. Instead of banding together against crossbows, apparently some would rather turn a blind eye and use crossbows as an opportunity to degrade compound shooters. I don't understand that mindset at all.

One last thing and I'm done here. The hardcore traditionalist friends I mentioned earlier not only shoot stickbows very well, they are also VERY good bowhunters. Doesn't matter what they are hunting or where they are hunting...they figure it out. Just shooting any bow accurately (stickbow or compound), does NOT make one a good bowhunter. I can't help but wonder if that's part of the reason they have a totally different attitude on the subject?

16-Feb-21
In any event, killing deer and most other big game during the bow and arrow seasons has become increasingly easier the last 50 years.

From: Live2Hunt
16-Feb-21
The worst argument I see time after time is a there is no difference between a compound and an xbow, that is just hilarious, it really is. If you shoot a weapon like a gun it is a gun, if you shoot it like a bow it is a bow. Archery is the act of shooting a bow with an arrow at a target. Pretty obvious to me. What don't others see with all that?

From: Rick
16-Feb-21
Encyclopedia says it is a bow , elastic potential energy stored and, when released the energy is transferred to propel a arrow,??

From: DanaC
16-Feb-21
"What don't others see with all that? "

"Willfull" blindness is incurable. It's sometimes caused by money, sometimes by convenience.

From: Mike Turner
16-Feb-21
Wow, a whole lot to try digest here. PAV, you are a bowhunter and don't ever let anyone break down your thoughts on that. As bowhunters, we have been told our entire lives we could not get it done, remember? Bowhunting is far beyond the weapon you choose. It's focused planning with dedicated buddies, an attiutude of dogged persistance, waiting years to draw a certain tag, endurance of a long hunt, hunting as hard as possible in tough weather and country, traveling away from your family and then make that one, single shot count under stress. I'm a bowhunter and I know this! For years Iv'e come back from successful trips and been called "lucky" for consistantly bagging big game. I have personally invited dozens of friends and coworkers to plan a hunt, put in for tags and play the permit game, spend the time to get in top shape, pay for expensive tags and then travel and hunt hard, leave your family for weeks, and guess what? I have not had a single taker. Not ONE! Very few want to hunt and assume the life of of true bowhunter, and I am good with that for me and for them. What else is there to say.....

From: Jaquomo
16-Feb-21
"In any event, killing deer and most other big game during the bow and arrow seasons has become increasingly easier the last 50 years."

If that's truly the case, then why is the archery success rate here in Colorado staying virtually the same, despite all the technology?

16-Feb-21
I did not mean that is true of all big game, and in all areas. But in general, especially in the Midwest, it is far easier to kill a quality animal today than when I started in the 1960's. Much has to do with the quantity and quality of game, especially whitetail deer and turkey. Look at the P&Y club entries by year, and yes there are other variables. I also believe the compound bow is easier to master than the weapons we hunted with in the 1960's.

I have never hunted in Colorado so I am not familiar with variables out there. I would guess if crossbows advance in that state, killing will become easier. Isn't that one reason the CBH is not for allowing crossbows for all?

From: Rocky D
16-Feb-21
The irony of this thread and the arguments presented is that the crossbow fraternity would hand bowhunters their a$$ in any state other than one needing to limit hunters for some reason. Once again, we should be figuring out how to develop a collective voice at national and state levels.

Colorado may win in this case but big money will continue to push the crossbow agenda and ultimately bowhunters will lose as long as they are so disenfranchised.

From: RK
16-Feb-21
Mike Turner

While reading your post I was torn with feeling sorry for you and laughing so hard at your definition of being a bowhunter

Actually your post reminded me of an article that Jack O'Conner wrote back in the 60s about how very hard being a traveling hunter was. It was simular to your writings except he was using a rifle

I suspect that you will never find anyone to share the pains and miseries of being a bowhunter until you include the fun part, which I think is the point of hunting to begin with.

Nevertheless a great read

From: Mike Turner
16-Feb-21
JK, That was my point, all of what I described is the "fun part", to me. I love the training, blisters and sore feet, the shooting, the heavy rain on a fall elk hunt, the stress at the moment of truth, the ache in my bones after a heavy packout. You have to truly "embrace the suck" to be a bowhunter. I have found few good buddies who also enjoy all of the fun part, but they are a rare breed I have discovered. "The man at the top of the mountain didn't fall there"!

From: Jaquomo
16-Feb-21
CBA is against crossbows in CO primarily because of increased crowding since we have so much OTC hunting, and where limited, crossbow hunters would compete with bowhunters for the available licenses.

CPW officials have openly stated numerous times that they don't consider bowhunting to be any sort of management tool. And yet they keep trying to shorten our seasons, claiming we push too many elk onto private ranches where they are inaccessible to public land rifle hunters who do the actual "managing". Which, in many areas, is true given the explosion of OTC bowhunters who use CO as a fallback when they can't draw elsewhere. Throwing crossbow hunters into the September stew would exacerbate the problem.

16-Feb-21
I hope Colorado can keep them out of the archery seasons.

From: RK
16-Feb-21
I know nothing about colorado except what I read but I would bet, based on what Lou said about CPW shortening seasons, that CPW is looking hard at crossbows being a new management tool during archery season. Who knows but all game departments are tasked with managing the resource

From: RK
16-Feb-21
Mike

Your fun reminds me of years ago my business partner and I were in the office and he was on the phone trying to talk a client into going to Mozambique on a lion hunt The client was worried about the civil war that was going on at that time in Mozambique My partner tried to reassure him that it was as safe as Vietnam.

My Partner spent two tours in Vietnam and enjoyed the experience Needless to say the client passed

Perspective is a wonderful thing

From: Rocky D
16-Feb-21
“ CPW officials have openly stated numerous times that they don't consider bowhunting to be any sort of management tool.”

Sounds to me like trade space...

From: Live2Hunt
16-Feb-21
Bowhunting was started to give people who wanted the challenge to hunt game at close range with a bow and arrow shot by drawing a bow with your own power thinking it would be a low enough kill to not harm the herd. Only recent times it has shown to be effective for managing herds in suburban areas. Weapons' you shoot like a gun were not part of it.

From: GF
16-Feb-21
“ If that's truly the case, then why is the archery success rate here in Colorado staying virtually the same, despite all the technology?”

Mayhaps because it used to be that only a relatively small number of people were willing to bet their one tag/year on a bow hunt and those guys knew what they were up to and they had very little hunting pressure to work around.

Now, the bowhunters are less skilled, more numerous and push the animals around a lot more. And a lot of them are doing some armed scouting for early Rifle on a cow-only tag, or they are NR who have read & dreamed about hunting those screaming bulls.... so they have the aspirations, but not the skills...

What I would like to know is the % change in wounded, lost Elk per tag sold. Just because the success rate is not going up doesn’t necessarily mean that the full impact is being registered....

And FWIW, it sounds like Archery season has gotten so popular that it has become an obstacle to management because the Elk are getting pushed onto private before that first Rifle... so it’s not only a not a positive measure for management but an impediment.

Which is a pretty freakin’ compelling argument for a return to the low-pressure season that existed X years ago.

All they’ve gotta do now is reverse the permissible technological advances to whatever reduces OTC sales to the desired numbers....

From: pav
17-Feb-21
GF, after reading many of your posts pertaining to elk hunting and hunter numbers (not just on this thread by any means), I'm curious.....

How many years have you hunted elk with bow and arrow?

How many elk have you killed with bow and arrow?

When was the last time you killed an elk with bow and arrow?

Just trying to understand. Personally, I do believe technology is responsible for increases in elk hunter numbers, but I'm talking world wide web technology, not archery equipment technology. Compound bows have been around for over 50 years. The ability to learn much about elk hunting and e-scout from the comfort of your own home...maybe half that long...and gets more precise as time goes by.

I used to read about elk hunting in magazines...and thought some day! I used to watch elk hunting videos...and thought some day! Then came the internet...and some day arrived not long after. My first elk hunt was a DIY public land hunt and I was fortunate to take a raghorn 5X5 on day seven (at 17 yards you would be happy to know). Pretty sure I would not have been hunting the Colorado Rockies without a guide (coming from Indiana), much less had a chance to actually tag a bull elk, without the knowledge and advice gleaned from the internet....most of it right here on Bowsite. Of course, I was hooked at that point.

That said, I don't think going backwards is a feasible answer. *IF* Colorado decides to limit hunter numbers in archery season...limited entry is the avenue IMO.

From: Will
17-Feb-21
Jaq - dont get people going on Spanish or French nymphing with 20-40 foot mono or flouro "leaders" and dense nymphs... The Bamboo crew will lose their minds :) ha ha ha! I've always seen the debate go from Tenkara to losers who use reels though, not the other way. As a reel user, I always feel abused by those silly no reel using Tenkara nerds ha ha ha ha!

Pav, looks to me like you are a heck of a bowhunter! Glad you are still enjoying it, and share info here.

From: RK
17-Feb-21

From: Mad Trapper
17-Feb-21
I am waiting for the stats to come out in PA for this past season. In a November issue of PA Outdoor News, they interviewed several deer processors to see how their season was going. Every operation was up significantly, some to the point that they were going to stop taking in deer until the could get caught up. All of them attributed the increase to crossbows. My taxidermist had the same experience. Several bow shops in western Pa have indicated that the bulk of their sales is moving to crossbows. Many of our neighbors now shoot crossbows to the point where we noticed a significant decline in rifle hunters in our area this past year. It will be interesting what the PA game commission reports and whether this is going to eventually lead to a shortened archery season.

From: Jaquomo
17-Feb-21
Will, I fish cane, graphite, fiberglass, switch, and Tenkara. I fish balance flies under a bobber, deep drift nymphs, slip-bobber deep midges on lakes, stripping articulated streamers, dry-dropper, and #24 dry midges. Even modified Czech sometimes. All have their place. But out here in the West, Tenkara is considered super-gay by reel guys. On the FB fly fishing forums the vitriol towards one method vs the others can get really nasty, almost as bad as trad vs. "motorcycle bows", lol.

From: shade mt
18-Feb-21
Ego usually doesn't benefit anyone...Enjoy your time afield, be silly to let someone else decide how you do that.

Moral and ethical would be the only exception.

From: PECO
18-Feb-21
"Tenkara is considered super-gay by reel guys" Well hell, now I am questioning my sexuality. I kinda think Tenkara setups are cool and kinda want one. Or not, I take spinners and ultra light spinning rod/reel to the river and don't care what the Real guys think. My rod and reel costs less than the Real guys net. I also fish in Teva sandals and board shorts.

From: Will
18-Feb-21
I'm sorry for blowing your thread Pav. Jaq - you sound like my kind of fly fisherman. I may sit down tonight and tie up a few bass bugs, some midges, a couple adams and a some flatwing streamers for the salt... No issue stripping streamers, floating bobbers, tighlining or drifting dries. All fun. I've pondered Tenkara, but figure I can pretty much do the same thing with my current rods, it's just not as pretty, and I'm ok with that.

Nothing wrong with that PECO, your out there having fun and getting it done. A little Panther Martin or Mepps rarely fails.

But, this all goes back to the thread's origin... A person using line to cast a fly - be it with a reel or not, is functionally fly fishing... While a person using a standard reel to cast a fly with a bubble or weight of some sort, is not. They are fishing, but not fly fishing.

Still cool...

But not in a fly fishing only river.

Reminding me of why I agree with Pav's initial post.

From: Bigpizzaman
18-Feb-21
Coming in late on this, but reading that shooting a stick bow is art? I’d say shooting an animal at +70 yards with a compound bow is an art, detractors would say it’s “unethical”! Many of those detractors use stick bows that for the same reason you claim my distance shooting is unethical, makes your choice of weapons the same, unethical! I never go there only an observation, if everyone followed the adage “you do you”, things would be better. Only other thing I can add is none of this crap happens at Bowsite gatherings, everyone is on their best behavior. Guess it’s the lack of keyboards!!

18-Feb-21
I do not think any of the weapons are unethical, whatever unethical means. I do agree with increased technology, especially since the 1960's, the effective archery ranges have been greatly expanded. The compound over the stickbow, and the crossbow over the compound. This has nothing to do with ethics of the weapon. All three are ethical.

I know, each person has a different effective range. For me personally, (having shot all three weapons), my stickbow effective range is within 30 yards. With a compound bow I am good out to about 50 yards, and with the new modern and scoped crossbows I am deadly accurate out to about 90 yards. Others are better shots than me and can expand their ranges accordingly. They can define their own ethics. In my own case, I am positive with each weapon advancement it has made it easier for me to kill animals, and at longer ranges.

From: Jackaroo
18-Feb-21
So “you be you” as long as you are on your best behavior which is defined by the group? Got it. I never wanted to be involved in a group on their best behavior. Sounds like neighborhood,incredibly boring. I prefer a group of characters that challenge the status quo even if it means pissing off a few people to get them to think a little differently.

From: GF
18-Feb-21
I’m confused. What’s so awful about minding your manners??? If your argument is worth a damn? If people get pissed off, that’s about running up against their sense of entitlement.

So far, MObreaks get my vote for being the most honest man on the thread. The higher tech weapons increase the effective range of the user. Shocking, I know.

There is (IMO) absolutely NOTHING “unethical“ about making a certain, killing shot at 70 yards. I don’t give a rip about what weapon you use; it’s either a certain, killing shot, or it isn’t.

But in places like Colorado, the whole point of archery is that the season exists for the purpose of creating a set-aside opportunity for those who are willing to limit their use of technology in hunting, and are willing to accept lower odds of success in exchange for lower competitive pressure.

When changes in the technology create changes in the pressure on the season, then the appropriate way to restore the balance is to specify greater restrictions on technology to bring the permitted weapons back in line with the limitations envisioned at the outset, Thereby restoring the pressure levels to those envisioned it at the outset.

What’s Unethical is exploiting an unforeseen loophole created by technological advances and pretending that you are assuming the same limitations in effective range and odds of success imposed by the equipment as it was understood at inception.

It really doesn’t matter until participation reaches a point at which the fundamental experience is compromised, or at which artificial measures (such as a lottery for tags) limit access to the season by those who are willing to abide by the rules as they were originally understood.

A synthetic stocked, stainless steel barreled, weatherproof muzzleloader shooting loose, BP-substitute powder and a full-bore conical is pretty nearly the functional and ballistic equivalent of an honest-to/God antique or reproduction muzzleloader Rifle shooting a bullet of comparable mass and a loose powder charge of Real BP. There are some trifling differences, but as long as the sights are the same, it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.

But a compound is to a stick bow what a smokeless/sabot shooting muzzleloader is to a roundball rifle or a full- bore conical shooter. The ballistics are simply not comparable, and if you slap a scope on there, about the only difference between the in-line and a .375 H&H is the speed with which you can reload.

But if you have a problem with Compound shooters being bumped out of archery season (via lottery) by crossbow hunters, then it is unethical (by definition) for you to be OK with compound Shooters bumping Stickbow Shooters out of the season which was conceived with stickbows in mind.

End of discussion.

If you disagree, that’s a function of your own tolerance for personal hypocrisy. If you shoot a compound and you bitch about point creep, then you need look no farther than the nearest mirror to discover the source of your problem.

From: pav
19-Feb-21
GF, after reading many of your posts pertaining to elk hunting and hunter numbers (not just on this thread by any means), I'm curious.....

How many years have you hunted elk with bow and arrow?

How many elk have you killed with bow and arrow?

When was the last time you killed an elk with bow and arrow?

Just trying to understand. Personally, I do believe technology is responsible for increases in elk hunter numbers, but I'm talking world wide web technology, not archery equipment technology. Compound bows have been around for over 50 years. The ability to learn much about elk hunting and e-scout from the comfort of your own home...maybe half that long...and gets more precise as time goes by.

I used to read about elk hunting in magazines...and thought some day! I used to watch elk hunting videos...and thought some day! Then came the internet...and some day arrived not long after. My first elk hunt was a DIY public land hunt and I was fortunate to take a raghorn 5X5 on day seven (at 17 yards you would be happy to know). Pretty sure I would not have been hunting the Colorado Rockies without a guide (coming from Indiana), much less had a chance to actually tag a bull elk, without the knowledge and advice gleaned from the internet....most of it right here on Bowsite. Of course, I was hooked at that point.

That said, I don't think going backwards is a feasible answer. *IF* Colorado decides to limit hunter numbers in archery season...limited entry is the avenue IMO.

From: Bowbender
19-Feb-21
"End of discussion."

Except you're not the arbiter of this discussion.

"If you disagree, that’s a function of your own tolerance for personal hypocrisy."

No, that's your opinion, often times confused with facts. Nonetheless, still opinion.

Remember the last time you held your cocked and locked compound, nestled the shoulder stock against your shoulder, wrapped your fingers around the pistol grip, steadied the foregrip on a shooting rail, or securely clamped in a tripod, the 4X lighted reticle already set for the correct yardage via the blueooth range finder, flipped off the safety and squeezed the trigger on a 100+ yard shot. Ya, me neither.

If I were to make a rubic chart I think (JMO) that the crossbow would find more similarities with the modern inline than a compound. Somone above mentioned that the differences between a compound and a scoped modern crossbow are merely nuances. A nuance is a "subtle distinction". The ability to securely clamp and steady a crossbow (making the hunter nothing more than a trigger puller) for a 100 yard shot, with the range preset in an illuminated reticle is a wee bit more than subtle. That's like saying scoped single shot rifles should be allowed in PA's flintlock season because a projectile is propelled via a chemcial reaction. Oh shit, I forgot. The modern inline crowd has been pushing for that.

Anyhow, carry on. I'm not that smart or eloquent enough to make the determination that my words determine the end of the discussion.

From: Lawdy
19-Feb-21
My brother, a former recurve guy, blew his shoulder apart in an atv accident. He is 72. Went to a crossbow this past fall. Shot his deer at 60 yards through a 6 inch opening. He said that if he used one all these years, he would have killed a pile of deer. Legalize them if you want during bow seasons, but don’t insult everyone’s intelligence claiming they are a primitive weapon in a season that was originally established for guys hunting with stick bows, seasons that had minuscule impact on the deer herd. I hunted the first muzzleloading season in my state. I was one of about a hundred or so that killed a deer. I did it with a flinter, and I bet there were not even a dozen killed with rock guns. We had 10 days, either/or. Now it is bucks only and basically single shot rifles. Cross bows outsell compounds up here, and one feature guys like is that they are easy to shoot out the window of a pickup.

20-Feb-21
The truck window feature is actually a big selling point.

From: Dclark
20-Feb-21
Lawdy hit the nail on the head

From: shade mt
20-Feb-21
Couple things I suppose I'm qualified to mention.

I was a "bowhunter" before bowhunting was cool.....

Back then compounds were just hitting the market, and some of them had wood laminated limbs..lol..imagine that.

I started with a 45 lb Ben Pearson recurve...shot it till my fingers blistered....and kept on shooting.

Upgraded to a Bear grizzly recurve, bought it for 60.00 at Kinsey archery in mt joy PA...there were no compounds hanging...no treestands.

Most everyone hunted from the ground.

My first compound was a Jennings lightning.

Never stopped using recurves...

Not sure when I started hunting from a treestand....early 90's I suppose.

Far as killing deer?..lol...I should just let my kids answer....I could tell ya anything. But truth is they were raised on venison....around here it's never been...just a novelty.

But you know what folks?.....

My man cave....looks a whole lot different today than it did back in the day...

There are a whole lot more bows hanging on the wall...recurves, longbows, a compound in a case. Treestands , Back packs, binos, camo this and that, rangefinders, trail cams...you name it.....it's there.

You know something else that's there?

A whole wall full of racks, there is no more space to hang them...there are turkey beards, pictures of my kids with their deer, bear harvested, my daughter and I Bear hunting together.

But you know....it is not killing a deer with my recurve that defines me as a bowhunter. It's the memorys that flood my mind when I walk into that room.

So for you guys that are all caught up in defining yourself...take my advice.

That 70yd shot on that Elk?...Be thankful...man that was an awesome shot..

When you stand on a high mt enjoying the view....Be thankful...Because man that's an awesome view.

When you smell that white pine...Be thankful ...because man that's an awesome smell.

When your legs ache, when you shiver with cold, when the sweat rolls down your face, in driving rain, or winter snow, or autumn day's ,when you plan, anticipate, when you save, when you experience.....Be thankful.

I could go on but I think you got the point.

Regardless of what you hunt with, don't expect that to Be all that defines you, because that alone don't offer much....Be thankful.....Because man it's great to be out there.

From: Jeff Durnell
20-Feb-21
I knew this day would come, and I must say, it's a bit more entertaining than I'd hoped.

"It's often easier to fight for your principles than to live up to them." - Adlai Stevenson

From: Will tell
20-Feb-21
I'm a fly fisherman who ties my own flies. I like using Bamboo rods. I also hunt with cedar arrows, self bows and other trad bows. I don't give a fiddlers fart about anyone else or how they hunt or fish.

Catching a 20 inch plus Trout on one of my flies on a Boo rod is what keeps me fishing.

Killing a deer or Turkey with Primitive bows and arrows is a real challenge. I do it for myself. Doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.

From: Lawdy
20-Feb-21
Other than dynamite, fly fishing is all I do. The big fish waters up here are fly fishing only, as are the scheduled rivers in Newfy. Rather than carry a law book, I find it easier to just fly fish, plus I like it. Like bow hunting, I have to be active all the time. I only jig on ice because at least I am doing something active. Swedish Pimples are killers on Togue.

From: GF
20-Feb-21
“ I do it for myself. Doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.”

Not until they crowd you out of the woods.

I don’t give a rip what other people hunt with, either. They can call themselves “Bowhunters” if they identify as such. That’s no skin off my nose and up to them.

But if pressure during Archery is such that a season which was supposed to have a negligible impact on the herd is now interfering with the state’s ability to manage the resource, then the managers will have to either demand that tags be limited or the season needs to be scrapped entirely... Otherwise they cannot/are not doing what they get paid to do.

And if tags are to be limited, then the criteria for doing so must rightly be built around the reason that the season was instituted in the first place and not dictated by popular demand. Wouldn’t expect that to be a difficult concept to explain to a bunch of “republicans” and “conservatives”, but you know how it goes with entitlement programs.... they’re all Bad except the ones that fill MY pocket....

From: Lawdy
20-Feb-21
That 3rd paragraph, GF, is pretty much what happened to the muzzleloading season here. I was in that group who pushed for a muzzle loading season. We had quite a task convincing rifle hunters that our old fashioned flinter and cap locks wouldn’t impact the deer herd. Along came high tech and you know the rest of the story.

From: pav
20-Feb-21
GF, after reading many of your posts pertaining to elk hunting and hunter numbers (not just on this thread by any means), I'm curious.....

How many years have you hunted elk with bow and arrow?

How many elk have you killed with bow and arrow?

When was the last time you killed an elk with bow and arrow?

Just trying to understand. Personally, I do believe technology is responsible for increases in elk hunter numbers, but I'm talking world wide web technology, not archery equipment technology. Compound bows have been around for over 50 years. The ability to learn much about elk hunting and e-scout from the comfort of your own home...maybe half that long...and gets more precise as time goes by.

I used to read about elk hunting in magazines...and thought some day! I used to watch elk hunting videos...and thought some day! Then came the internet...and some day arrived not long after. My first elk hunt was a DIY public land hunt and I was fortunate to take a raghorn 5X5 on day seven (at 17 yards you would be happy to know). Pretty sure I would not have been hunting the Colorado Rockies without a guide (coming from Indiana), much less had a chance to actually tag a bull elk, without the knowledge and advice gleaned from the internet....most of it right here on Bowsite. Of course, I was hooked at that point.

That said, I don't think going backwards is a feasible answer. *IF* Colorado decides to limit hunter numbers in archery season...limited entry is the avenue IMO.

21-Feb-21
The questions to GF about his elk hunting really are meaningless, what is the point?

From: Rocky D
21-Feb-21
“ Colorado decides to limit hunter numbers in archery season...limited entry is the avenue IMO.”

Historically I don’t think that Colorado has given any indication about limiting numbers. If you limit numbers then you reduce revenue and I do not see any indication that Colorado wants to reduce revenue.

From: Kevin Dill
21-Feb-21
I’m late to this too.....maybe a good thing. This whole discussion seems to be about the legitimacy of this or that equipment, attitude, experience, qualifications, methods and so on. But what I see (as the issue) is something far from most talking points.

Social media allows people to say some very personal things (to others) in very impersonal ways. To many it’s an art or sport to exchange barbs and insults on a forum ...entertainment for sure. It’s pretty easy for me to insinuate you’re not really a true bow hunter based on some arbitrary personal ideals. It doesn’t make it true or fact. I can insult you if you have the guts to argue with me....it’s the way of impersonal social media with no consequences. In fact there’s something more akin to rewards, when buddies show up and reinforce my insults. The problem only begins to exist when guys start to believe or put any stock in what others think or say in a social media setting.

I have a very low drive to exchange via social media. It’s like garlic to me. Too much sends me away looking to get the bad taste out of my mouth. It’s a bit of a bummer, as I know there are overwhelming numbers of great people....with just a certain number who can’t seem to avoid being dedicated 8th graders. The easy thing (at least for me) is to never EVER put any stock in the negative judgments of others. When you start letting the impersonal stuff mess with your comfortability, it’s time to walk away and go be yourself without ANY regards to what social media addicts think or say.

From: Lawdy
21-Feb-21
This is a very mild site compared to leather wall. Start a thread on instinctive shooting, crack open a beer, and wait for the fireworks, especially if it is in between seasons.

From: Jackaroo
21-Feb-21
Kevin didn’t you just do what you accuse others of doing? If you are free to do what you want to do with out judgement why do you judge others for doing what they want to do? Is it because you don’t agree with it ,which of course is judgement.

From: Glunt@work
21-Feb-21
CO is 100% limited for 6 of our 10 species and partially limited for 3 of the remaining 4. 16 more elk units went from OTC to limited in 2020.

Archery elk has been changing to more limited units steadily, and 100% limited has been part of the wildlife commission discussions.

From: GF
21-Feb-21
“ Kevin didn’t you just do what you accuse others of doing? ”

No, he did not. Not remotely.

From: Jackaroo
21-Feb-21
Sure he did GF. Just is Pav is attempting to do to you what he accused others of doing to him.

“Social media allows people to say some very personal things (to others) in very impersonal ways. “. “ I can insult you if you have the guts to argue with me....it’s the way of impersonal social media with no consequences”

“ with just a certain number who can’t seem to avoid being dedicated 8th graders.”

This is social media , I am positive there would be consequences saying this to someone face to face if you didn’t know them.

From: Kevin Dill
21-Feb-21
Jackaroo....

You’re missing my point entirely....or maybe taking my sentence about how I can insult somebody in the literal sense. That is meant in the theoretical sense....assuming I was even someone who was willing to exchange insults on social media....which I decidedly am not.

I agree completely with you that, in a face-to-face exchange, things are often different; otherwise there would be consequences for some of the things said within social media venues. That’s one of my main points in my post above. People WILL say things and negatively judge others for how they (example) hunt with their bow. Allowing those expressions on any social media site to affect your mood or happiness is simply putting too much importance on the often-harsh and impersonal statements of others.

Thank you.

From: Jackaroo
21-Feb-21
Gotcha Kevin thanks for the clarification.

From: Jaquomo
21-Feb-21
I've had some differences with one particular bowhunter on hunting forums over the years. At times it got somewhat nasty (imagine that?!). Anyway, we met at a P&Y convention and he was a pussycat. I was expecting a fistfight out back. Had a congenial discussion and never brought up ebikes once.

Now he hates me again. Keyboards do change people....

22-Feb-21
A discussion forum is a place to provide your opinions, that is what discussion forums are for. When I meet someone socially it is not to hear their opinions on every issue, that would make for a short evening.

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