Contributors to this thread:
I definitely agree. I got in the western hunting game about 10 years ago, but even that was "late to the party". I hate to think how much worse its going to be for my kids, who are still many years away from hunting on their own tags.
I hope that the one thing this change will help instill in them is how lucky they are to have the opportunity and that any tag is a valuable commodity and not to be wasted on giving a poor effort.
I almost wish that were the case (the quitting part). In reality, the demand for limited western big game hunts is at an all-time high. It gets harder to draw good licenses every year, due to demand that always seem to increase. I assume this is why state game departments continue to feel emboldened to crank up NR fees for points, licenses and tags, betting that we'll surely keep right on paying. And we do ;-)
The sad part is that there are enough wealthy people in the country and out of country to keep that tags bought up even if the prices go up. How many hunters are there in the US that can afford tags at very premium prices? LOTS. I am always astounded at how much money there really is around. Even in a small town like Winnipeg, the number of people with lots of money, or at least willing to spend a lot of money astounds me. The number of crazy expensive boats I see on the water blows my mind.
So what happens? Eventually the states need to figure out if they want to max out $/demand per tag, or if they purposefully make a conscious decision to keep prices low in order for the "common man" to access them. Otherwise demand and supply will put it out of reach for most people and the long term effect is we are into a European pricing model. It has to be a conscious decision and written into the mission/vision statement, otherwise someone gets bonused on sales/revenue or whatever and it will be completely out of reach if it isn't getting there already.
Too many greedy people,Heck USO outfitters came to Kansas and threatened to file suit if we didn't let NR hunt here and then went back to his home state of NM and pushed it through to set up outfitters with the permit quota.I don't mind restrictions based on science after all thats why we all want to draw places like NM and Iowa.But in Kansas it's all about money and the heck with whats best for the wildlife and it's the same in alot of states
Like I said, we could lower tag fees to $100 in Wyoming ... you'd love it if you drew it, but you never would.
I think the moral of the story at this point is to pick one or more of the following; Make piles of cash to be able to simply buy tags/hunts. Live in your preferred western state. And/or go to college or live briefly in a state like Arizona, Idaho or Kansas where you can grandfather yourself into the resident hunting pool by qualifying for lifetime licenses. If you’re not capable of or willing to do any of the above, then things probably aren’t going to get better anytime soon.
Read Wyoming elk may be going to $1100. Hope it doesn’t happen, but probably will.
Yep, just say it again on a thread on here. Heaven help us. Guess Idaho led the charge.
I went on a Canada sheep hunt six years ago. It was $14 grand plus. Today, it’s well over $20 grand. I’ve also gone on moose and brown bear hunts in the past 3-4 years. Those also have greatly increased in price, far more than inflation. I won’t go on those kind of hunts at today’s prices. Supply of hunts or hunting opportunities is not keeping up with demand for them. So prices will continue to rise. That seems to be contrary to the number of hunters vs the number of hunters historically. I guess if I had an outfitting business and could take 20 hunters a year, and I could fill all opening at $10 grand versus $7 grand, I’d raise my price to $10 grand.
Nonresident hunting has been a rich mans game for quite a while. All of us who do it are rich compared to 99.9% of the world's population. All of us are recreation hunters vs subsistence hunters. It's really hard to think of any of us as oppressed. We're on EZ street sitting in front of our computers or on our fancy phones whining about how much it costs to hunt a few hundred miles away for fun. Even resident hunting in most states is too expensive to really be subsistence hunting. The meat is a nice bonus but it's hard to argue that it's an economical way to acquire food.
States will never keep their prices the same or lower them unless their operational costs stay the same or decrease. We all know that will never happen.
Habitat, define "greedy". Name one person who, when offered a raise, declines it because they're already making too much. Name one company that purposely charges less than market value for goods and services.
The price of a WY NR elk license today is almost exactly the same as it was in 1980 (adjusted for inflation). In 1980 dollars it would cost $750 today. This is true in most states in the West, and in some midwestern states it's actually cheaper for a NR to hunt today than back then.
So the jump to $1100 is an exercise to test the willingness-to-pay threshold, and they will still have way more applicants than tags. That's only $21 a week into the cookie jar, and anyone who can't afford to save that has no business hunting out of state anyway.
I hunted WY general this past fall, and the woods were saturated with young 20-30-something nonresidents driving $50K trucks, shooting $1500 bows, carrying $2000+ worth of optics and electronics, and wearing $1000 worth of fashion. Something tells me another $400 for an elk tag won't phase anyone who wants to hunt elk in WY. If it does, just come to CO where everyone else hunts elk for cheap.
Life is about choices. We choose where to live, choose our career paths, choose our spouses, and choose how to spend (or invest) our money. In most of the country, a resident can hunt their own state for super-cheap. So nobody is being "priced out" of hunting.
At least in CO we allow healthy portion of our elk tags to non residents. With 35% NR tags plus access to buy land owner tags, it equals close to 50% of our limited tags. Plus OTC tags.
Some states don't even allow NR access to their elk draw, like MN ;^)
In 2035 we'll have a similar thread and chuckle at how cheap it was to hunt way back in '21...."ahhh those were good ol' days" ;-)
"In 2035 we'll have a similar thread and chuckle at how cheap it was to hunt way back in '21...."ahhh those were good ol' days" ;-)"
Yep, thread titles will be "Charging stations between Laramie and Baggs?", and "Will trade hunting for carbon credits".
Jaquomo
So funny and so true
I have always felt what is happening to hunting is the epitome of irony and injustice. Those who need the meat the most are the ones being shoved out of the hunt. Like the days of "The King's Deer". When I was growing up, we hunted for the meat and the experience. Antlers and horns were a fun bonus. Today it is mostly a phallus-measuring contest.
Well, I guess we all already know who won that one…
The state of Wyoming wants less NR hunters. They’ll get it too. Tag cost won’t be the defining variable. Tag availability will be though.
They could double that price and still fill the NR quotas they are proposing. And, in the end, that’s what they will do.
Anyways, it’s becoming a richer mans game. And, as a non resident, it does indeed feel like I’m the red headed step child. That’s ok though because many western residents aren’t able to hunt their home states. With any consistency. I can’t expect any better.
I’ll either be able to Anney up or go fishing more often.
So don’t get me wrong here, because it does bother me that it cost me 5 or 10 times (or more) as much to hunt in my home state as it costs my brother, but as Lou said..... choices…
Not that everything that has ever put a strain on my finances has been a matter of choice by any means…
That said… How much does it cost for five days of lift tickets at any one of the western resorts? Maybe A-basin is a little cheaper? How much does it cost to play a single round of golf at a prestigious club? How much is a high-end compound bow, and how often do you guys replace them? How much is a dozen fancy carbon arrows?
I figure I sure wouldn’t have the nerve to complain about the price of licenses if I were using arrowheads that cost me $50 apiece!
Seems like paying top dollar for the latest, greatest and finest in all aspects of equipment and fashion camo and accessories is a badge of honor among a lot of hunters, but there are no prestige points for buying the exact same license as everybody else, so that’s what people bitch about....
My out of state elk hunting stopped when CO raised their prices from $250.00. Now, it’s once in a blue moon when I go out of state for any hunting. I can barely afford to go in my own state if I draw a tag once every 5 years. I’m sitting on the fence still if I should/want to apply for any tags. I’m starting to doubt if my kids will even get a chance to hunt anything besides turkey or waterfowl.
How would you like it if you could only hunt where you live once every 10 years? 20 years ago I could get an elk tag every other year for the unit I live in, now it takes ten years (and climbing steadily). So I can hunt raghorns every year in my state, so can you. I will probably only get to hunt once more in the unit I live in. I definitely think residents of any state should have significant advantages.
I did feel that way, but my home state (Massachusetts) has proposed quadrupling our 'resident' licenses. Intense 'discussion' is under way. Frankly, non-resident licenses can seem like a bargain, if your interest - and the opportunity - to fill the freezer is likewise high. You do have to factor travel expenses in.
I believe resident and non resident tags are a bargain.
As long as people are willing to pay for tags increases will continue. Less tags at more money will still get dollars states are looking for. Simple business.
Lou statements are spot on.
I see little difference in gouging between a $1100 NR elk tag in Wyoming and a $650 NR deer tag in Iowa. When only the Jimmy Johns of the world will be able to afford to hunt, the majority of hunters will blame everyone else, instead of looking in the mirror.
Matt
"Less tags at more money will still get dollars states are looking for. Simple business."
We seem to have a different model. If the state makes sure every NR that wants a tag gets one then they will have brought in more money through hotels, fuel, fast food, corn sales, etc through increased numbers. Residents won't change their spending habits on those "side" items when they hunt, their money inputs on living stay the same.
States are broke. They see opportunities in hunting and areas where they can make more money they will do it. They don't have a choice. They are all so poorly run in all other areas they are turning to the things that may work. Why else do you think weed is being legalized all over the place right now? They need the money.
Regarding what Lou and GF said, I think they are spot on. I live in Bozeman, MT. Used to be a nice little college town, its a bizerk liberal zoo now. Anyways....was gonna take the boys skiing the other weekend. We live 30 mins from Bridger Bowl and 50 mins from Big Sky/Moonlight. Couldn't get in to Bridger which is limited and on reservations due to a pandemic. Limiting people outside....ya.....makes sense to me? So I tried Big sky.....$181 for a day lift ticket. Thats funny. I would be right at $1,000 for one day of recreation for my family to ski Big Sky. One day. I'd rather spend a week chasing elk in Wyoming. Seems cheap when compared to that.
Sucks for you regular guys that want to come out west to hunt elk. I get that. I live here and get to hunt elk at a reasonable cost. What pisses me off is residents wanting to raise the cost of tags for residents.
Valid on other expenses like hotels , gas and food. But most guys I know that elk hunt, camp and bring their own meals while elk hunting. And giving every NR that wants a tag would not work long term either. OTC units are already over run with hunters now. I know there are OTC units that I would never go back too.
When I couldn't afford to go I didn't.I worked and saved.No one has a "right" to hunt out of state last I saw this was still America.
I think the real problem many are overlooking here is the number of tags available in total. Development, habitat loss, introduction of wolves, poor predator management, diseases like CWD/EHD, over harvest, changing weather patterns, over population of humans, etc have all resulted in lower and lower herd numbers and ultimately tag numbers. That problem will continue to increase and ever higher pace. The good old days are always going to be now for hunters. Put that pretty picture in your mind as you enjoy your coffee this morning.
I totally get what Scoot is saying, and agree about the feeling of doom and gloom. For me it's not really about the price so much as where hunting is headed.
With the liberal take over of this country, the dishonesty, corruption, lack of morals, etc., etc., (that includes politicians across the board - regardless of affiliation) I can see an end to what we now enjoy - our addiction, if you will.
I'm a baby-boomer so my time "mountain climbing" is limited, but what about our kids? For me that is a big part of my doom and gloom.
As Scoot said, do we finally reach that point where we say "F"-it? Not only do we stop spending the money on tags, ammo, arrows, bows, guns, motels, etc., but we quit supporting the very organizations that are lobbying for us - without the big lobbing groups, hunting is in real trouble.
The cheapest way to hunt elk is to live in the midwest or south and come here for a couple weeks. Living in elk country, the tag is cheap but the other 50 weeks a year is really expensive.
Always interesting to see everyone complain about tag cost. Yet when the NR hunters roll into town they have a $50,000 pick up, $15,000 atv, A $30,000 RV and enough friends in tow to fight a small battle. In all honesty, even with the recent price increases in license cost. Getting the license is still the cheapest part of the entire process.
I was like Scoot and in a sort of “sky is falling” mindset with this stuff yesterday as well. This sucks the worst for the guys who have been in for decades and have the rug pulled out from under them. I think some of what Justin said rings true though. Still lots of opportunities for now. I’m going to continue to play the game. In the event states price/elbow non resident interest into the dirt, and the giant wads of baby boomer points/apps phase out there could be some glory days left on the back end for a few of us who are lucky enough to make it that long. Maybe. Might have to pay five figures for a Wyoming elk tag to keep the department at an 80% funding from NR level, but at least I’d be in the game!
I don't recall any time when out of state big game hunting was for poor folks with little to no disposable income. Growing up in the 60-70s I knew very few people that ever in their lifetimes hunted out of state and those who did it was pretty much a "once in a lifetime" hunt. I didn't know anyone back in the "good old days" who did out of state elk hunts EVERY YEAR much less multiple state hunts every year. I know several who do just that now. Wasn't just the money, it was the time (especially rural ag people, fall was normally a pretty busy time, kids starting school, etc.) and most folks didn't have the gear to do it. Or the knowledge of where to even start.
Access to NR tags was pretty much a non-issue because there were so few NR hunters, despite there being a far greater percentage of the population who were hunters. When people's disposable incomes started to rise and working hours down, paid vacations, etc. up.... lots of things began to change. Not just hunting, travel in general began to explode. Entertainment (remember movie theaters a hundred years ago pre-pandemic?) recreation..... How many ski lodges/resorts were in your area back in the day? What did it cost to go skiing.... seen the prices of things like lift tickets? Now it's mountain bike lifts in the summer. Just far more recreation in general and folks have far more time and money to spend on it. Bowhunting is just one aspect of recreation in general.
There might be some hobby, sport or recreation that has gone down in cost over the years...... but offhand I don't know of any. But in the long run...... far more opportunity for the average working person to pursue their passions than any other time in history I'm aware of. Pretty much across the board, the "common" man has access to pursuits and opportunities today that were only available to a handful of the "upper class" decades ago.
I agree Scoot. It is out of control. I have been trying to motivate people to NOT take the mentality of "well the price is in line with all the other states" but the majority uses that logic. Or get 1 less cup of coffee. They ignore the ethics. 90% of my elk hunts are on federal land. No I do not want the feds handling wildlife but charging 10x more to a NR and giving us 10% of the tags will never sit right with me.
Once the precedence was set with high fees it was only a matter of time before every elk state followed. PA & Kentucky have not yet but I think every other state is getting $75 - $90 an app for LE tags right?
Getting the tag is the cheapest part? Huh? So if I drive my truck to WY, from western SD I only own that truck for that one elk hunt and the tag is my least expense?
TO ALL THOSE GUYS THAT THINK THE PRICES ARE OK please explain what expenses doubled in the time period the tag price doubled? App fees on average are up 10 fold but I get the cost to process application is the same or less? Please explain how the $75 app fee is required compared to $7 (or less) 10 years ago in CO, NM and to a lesser degree WY?
If the current app fees and tag costs doubled in the next 5 years is that also ok and fair?
I can afford it - higher fees really help me get better tags more often, but I will never say it is fair or ok.
I've never been sorry that I went on a hunt, and that includes a bunch of them. If you have the time off work, the money to go, and a family that deals with your passion, make it happen! Even a "bad" hunt with a crappy outfitter (now deceased) like the Dall sheep hunt I was on in Alaska in '98 has some amazing memories attached.
I remember drawing several tags the year the NR price went up (WY Shiras moose for $1,000 for instance). Good time to take advantage of less applicants.
Note that I understand feeling priced out of hunts, i.e. sheep hunts. So go live where you can hunt them annually, or with high draw odds. Worked for me so far for about 20 tags and still counting. Did use an outfitter on two Dall hunts.
Good luck, hunt what you can when you can!
The true threat to hunting is not the antis, it's us.
What kind of draw odds would you be looking at if tags were $100? You'd literally have a tenth of the chance at drawing at all.
I have here a 1962 Colorado nonresident archery deer license, which cost $50 (there was no archery elk season). In today's dollars, that archery deer tag would cost $434. A CO NR tag now costs $412.61. Hate to beat the horse, but many nonresident licenses are cheaper today than back in the "good old days".
But I agree, Scoot, that there are many other factors affecting hunting, from access to reduced tag availability in many places.
How much of this will be mitigated by a predicted severe dropoff in hunter numbers, nobody knows. But if this truly is a game of supply and demand, then some things should shift in favor of young hunters as they grow older.
Yup, I burn my points I have in certain states now and I'll be done...Rather chase Birds and Fish!
A 30 pack is around $25.00. I would say hunting licenses are very inexpensive, it is all about priorities.
I know a $h!t load of guys that are fanatic hunters that don't belong to even one conservation organization, state bowhunter's association, Pope and Young, Sierra Club, or any org that promotes hunting or conservation of the game we hunt. Odds are there's probably some on this very thread. I spent over 100 hours of my time last year in one capacity or another with conservation orgs, pope and young , or other groups promoting and fighting for bowhunting, hunting access, and hunter interests. I don't want a pat on the back or any BS like that from anyone. I just want my kids to have the same opportunities I have. You know what, no matter how many hours we put into it or how much work we do I'm starting to feel like Scoot. Frustrated, attacked from all angles, without representation, and ultimately approaching defeat. I'm not even sure all of us working together could stem the tide at this point. That said I'll continue to fight the good fight until I no longer can but I can see the light and as old Fred Sanford used to say "I'm comin to join you Elizabeth!" :) Enjoy the good times while we have them and try to extend them as long as you can.
There are guys on this forum who apply to multiple states every year, we all have that choice. And, there are plenty (thousands) who actually hunt in multiple states and countries each and every year. There is opportunity, and plenty of it, for those who prioritize.
mb, I'll draw out what Scoot is saying in crayon for you. The opportunities that are currently there for those who prioritize are the exact ones he's worried about losing (and we are at an alarming rate). Get it yet?
I'll pay to play but all of these game and fish departments just placate residents. In reality residents in every state need increases to go along with the non residents to fund the departments. I work for a small municipality and it is the same thing there. The last thing you ever want to do is to raise the rates of the residents. Because of this, you pass this along to everyone else. It looks as if you don't really care (and often you don't) about your non residents as they don't have a voice. If we were looking for the most efficient system everyone would absorb a cost increase. Tie it to the rate of inflation and it goes up incrementally every year. People won't care to pay 2-4% pay hikes yearly and it will smooth out revenues for the departments.
I am confident there will be plenty of hunting opportunity for our children. They may have to prioritize, hunt different species, not be serial same species killers, and travel more than a few miles from home. But, there will be quality hunting for those who care to make it happen. True, it will not last forever, and there will be changes, but I bet the next 40 years are safe for those with enthusiasm and not simply a sense of entitlement.
A recent report from our bowhunter ed committee pointed out there were NO bowhunter ed classes in 2020. That means NO kids got introduced to our sport in the last year, now, that's really sad and does not look well for the future. These chicoms have done a job on us and I will probably get knocked off here again by the PC police for saying chicom.
Show me where any organization got fees reduced
I could really care less about the fee increase. What I do care about is not being able to draw a general Wyoming tag in the special pool every year or every other year, like you could just a few years ago. It’s a general tag! Now it takes 2-3 years. Soon it’ll be 3-5 years. Thanks born and raised outdoors and all the other youtube warriors pimping and over publicizing everything.
I don’t really mind paying the prices for tags and try to spend my money at the mom and pop shops when out of state. The one exception is Wyoming I will buy my fuel and food in Idaho or Utah before I buy anything there. If they ever lift the wilderness restrictions I will gladly buy supplies while I’m there.
Is the issue folks are worried there will be no "opportunity" for your kids to hunt..... or no opportunity for your kids to do multiple hunts for high end species in other people's states? Are prices too high to hunt at home? Are there no tags available?
Residents of states should always have precedence over NR for opportunity as well as administrative costs. It was stated it's often about prioritizing. Maybe as Kurt stated, not just budget, maybe to the point of where you live. When the seatbelt light is off, you are free to move about the country......
How many tags (percentage) should be allocated to nonresidents?
This multiple species-multiple states each year trend is a relatively recent phenomenon. Blame the internet, blame the relative affluence across all age groups of adult hunters, blame Boomers with boatloads of disposable income. But it is real, and states are reacting accordingly. Here in CO the "W" part of CPW spends a hell of a lot of money on stuff unrelated to hunting and fishing, and NRs are the cash cow.
We are the problem. Lust for antlers has taken over the hunting world. Antlerless tags are way cheaper and plentiful. But we gotta have the horns because then we are more awesome. ( I'm guilty ) And so it goes up and up. They could double the price and sell out the tags. You can still get access to great property if you hunt antlerless. Pay for the horns. Or don't.
“Once in a lifetime tag” will have a new meaning someday.
Can’t say that I agree with your rant.
