HuntStand Hunting App
Lethal or Non-Lethal
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
BlacktailBob 16-Mar-21
BlacktailBob 16-Mar-21
Nick Muche 16-Mar-21
Ucsdryder 16-Mar-21
elkmtngear 16-Mar-21
LINK 16-Mar-21
BC 16-Mar-21
Jaquomo 16-Mar-21
orionsbrother 16-Mar-21
t-roy 16-Mar-21
Glunt@work 16-Mar-21
BlacktailBob 16-Mar-21
BlacktailBob 16-Mar-21
Pat Lefemine 16-Mar-21
WV Mountaineer 16-Mar-21
timberdoodle 16-Mar-21
Grey Ghost 16-Mar-21
Scoot 16-Mar-21
altitude sick 16-Mar-21
BC 16-Mar-21
Bowboy 16-Mar-21
Charlie Rehor 16-Mar-21
Jaquomo 16-Mar-21
GF 16-Mar-21
Dale06 16-Mar-21
BTM 16-Mar-21
Cut2Kill 16-Mar-21
Cut2Kill 16-Mar-21
Matt 16-Mar-21
Drnaln 16-Mar-21
Glunt@work 16-Mar-21
IdyllwildArcher 16-Mar-21
Pat Lefemine 17-Mar-21
Nick Muche 17-Mar-21
Drnaln 17-Mar-21
Spiral Horn 17-Mar-21
BlacktailBob 17-Mar-21
BlacktailBob 17-Mar-21
DanaC 17-Mar-21
Bou'bound 17-Mar-21
Trad PA 17-Mar-21
DonVathome 17-Mar-21
DonVathome 17-Mar-21
orionsbrother 17-Mar-21
Beachtree 17-Mar-21
BTM 17-Mar-21
sticksender 17-Mar-21
LINK 17-Mar-21
Inshart 17-Mar-21
Drnaln 17-Mar-21
APauls 17-Mar-21
iceman 17-Mar-21
Lost Arra 17-Mar-21
welka 17-Mar-21
Ron Niziolek 17-Mar-21
12yards 17-Mar-21
stealthycat 17-Mar-21
njbuck 17-Mar-21
GF 17-Mar-21
x-man 17-Mar-21
GhostBird 17-Mar-21
Drnaln 17-Mar-21
BlacktailBob 17-Mar-21
Supernaut 17-Mar-21
tobywon 17-Mar-21
Glunt@work 17-Mar-21
BlacktailBob 17-Mar-21
Rock 17-Mar-21
12yards 17-Mar-21
BlacktailBob 17-Mar-21
bowhunt 17-Mar-21
KHunter 17-Mar-21
Julius Koenig 17-Mar-21
Hoot 17-Mar-21
smurph 17-Mar-21
Drnaln 17-Mar-21
Old School 17-Mar-21
bowhunt 17-Mar-21
Glunt@work 17-Mar-21
smurph 17-Mar-21
zeke 17-Mar-21
JM 17-Mar-21
x-man 17-Mar-21
Jaquomo 17-Mar-21
IdyllwildArcher 17-Mar-21
orionsbrother 17-Mar-21
Matt 17-Mar-21
Oryx35 17-Mar-21
GF 17-Mar-21
HUNT MAN 17-Mar-21
Scooby-doo 18-Mar-21
12yards 18-Mar-21
Teeton 18-Mar-21
CFMuley 18-Mar-21
Rgiesey 18-Mar-21
320 bull 20-Mar-21
From: BlacktailBob
16-Mar-21

BlacktailBob's embedded Photo
BlacktailBob's embedded Photo
BlacktailBob's embedded Photo
BlacktailBob's embedded Photo
Was this a lethal wound? Entry wound is visible on elk laying on the ground. Arrow penetrated chest cavity and made the wound on the opposite side of the chest cavity but did not exit through the hide. Arrow remained in the elk, but eventually did fall out of the entry wound. Was this arrow placement and penetration combination lethal?

From: BlacktailBob
16-Mar-21

BlacktailBob's embedded Photo
BlacktailBob's embedded Photo
This is where arrow hit far side of chest cavity, but did not exit through the hide.

From: Nick Muche
16-Mar-21
Oh Bob, sorry to hear about this again, I remember us talking awhile back. Absolutely looks lethal to me, no doubt about it... Were you able to straighten the problem out?

From: Ucsdryder
16-Mar-21
I’m confused. The elk is laying there dead. So I would assume it was lethal.

From: elkmtngear
16-Mar-21
If it was shot on level ground, it's definitely a solid double-lung hit (since it hit the far rib cage, shoulder blade was apparently not an issue).

Sounds like there is a "rest of the story"???

From: LINK
16-Mar-21
Definitely in the void. ;)

From: BC
16-Mar-21
I agree, lethal.

From: Jaquomo
16-Mar-21
Lethal, but high lung and probably not much blood trail. Been there with a nearly identical shot.

16-Mar-21
Might be just a tad high, but certainly looks lethal to me.

What was the problem? Did he cover some ground and have someone else take a shot and claim him? If it’s anything like that, I’m firmly in your camp.

From: t-roy
16-Mar-21
Should definitely be lethal, but stranger things can happen.

From: Glunt@work
16-Mar-21
Little high, sorry :^)

From: BlacktailBob
16-Mar-21

BlacktailBob's embedded Photo
Slug I took out from under the hide well above the arrow wound.
BlacktailBob's embedded Photo
Slug I took out from under the hide well above the arrow wound.
Yes, he's dead alright, but he was shot with a rifle after I shot him with the arrow. Worst day of "bowhunting" I've had in well over 50 years. Claimed it wasn't a lethal shot.

Tule elk was shot out of a ground blind at 18 yards. My bow hit the top of the blind when I shot, but it was only 18 yards, so that didn't make too much difference. I do think the arrow was not flying straight when it hit the elk. That's why it didn't blow right through.

Elk went about 20 yards and laid down. They don't lay down with an arrow in their chest when they are feeling good.

He didn't die quickly though. After about 5 minutes of laying there he got up and walked toward another bull at the tank The bull I hit was the heard bull, big 6 x6, and I think the second bull sensed his weakness and charged him, antlers lowered. They both ran off behind an area where I could no longer see them.

This was all being watched from the ranch house. Outfitter's buddy drove a side by side out and shot him. He had no idea what that meant to me. He thought he was doing me a favor. Not so much.

When skinning the elk they tried telling me the wound inside the chest cavity was from one of two bullets shot into the elk. No so. I could feel the broadhead cuts in the ribs and I found the bullet slug under the hide on the opposite side of the elk. To get there it had to have been shot into the side of the elk where that chest cavity wound was located. There was no hole through the hide at that spot. Slug was several inches higher in the shoulder than where my arrow hit him too. The entry hole wound lined up perfectly with the wound on the other side of his chest too.

I've recently been told the outfitter is telling folks my shot was not a lethal wound. I guess I don't think my photographs lie. The elk was within a few minutes of dropping over dead. I don't know 100% because I couldn't see the elk at the time, but I had received a text from someone in the ranch house that said the bull was lying down again when the side by side drove out.

I think the side by side traffic got him up. The second bull ran off and my bull got up to leave with him. He was then shot.

From: BlacktailBob
16-Mar-21
Forgot to mention. There was an arrow wound through both lungs. It was through the top of the lungs though. Elk are tuff and they can live awhile with that high lung hit, but they are certainly going to die the vast majority of the time. I think the bull was within two minutes of death when he was shot. If the side by side would not have driven out and gotten him up, he most likely would have died there in his second bed.

From: Pat Lefemine
16-Mar-21
Yikes. That sucks. And I know what that hunt costs too. Sorry Bob.

16-Mar-21
Deadly shot. No doubt about it with the lungs having proof of a broadhead penetrating them. The shot looks perfect from the entry wound too. Maybe higher the. I’d aim but, you ain’t missing the lungs with a shot like that. Even if the arrow did deflect up.

From: timberdoodle
16-Mar-21
Do you get a mulligan?

From: Grey Ghost
16-Mar-21
Hope it was worth the price. SMH.

Matt

From: Scoot
16-Mar-21
Holy cow I would be mad as hell! 99.9% lethal shot. .1% chance something really, really goofy happened (or maybe less).

How did the outfitter handle things?

16-Mar-21
The shot might not of been lethal but opening up his chest cavity for pictures would’ve been

From: BC
16-Mar-21
Outfitter must not cater to bowhunters often. He should've given it time. Tough one.

From: Bowboy
16-Mar-21
Yep, I shot an elk in about the same spot and he died pretty quickly. I wouldn't be a happy camper that they shot it with a rifle thinking is was non lethal hit when it was.

16-Mar-21
So did the Outfitters buddy have a tag and did he tag the Tule elk?

If he believed it was a “non-lethal” shot it would seem he’d need a tag. Curious

From: Jaquomo
16-Mar-21
Great point, Charlie.

From: GF
16-Mar-21
I guess I’m missing something.

Sure looks like a lethal shot to me. And the bowhunter got to tag the animal, which had its suffering ended sooner, rather than later.

What’s the problem???

From: Dale06
16-Mar-21
I’d be furious. That was a lethal shot by you.

From: BTM
16-Mar-21
Sounds like someone was trigger happy. A very experienced elk hunter and guide once said to me, "If I could walk up to an elk and shove an arrow through him, I'd stick it right here." Where he touched the elk 3D target was exactly where you shot your Tule.

From: Cut2Kill
16-Mar-21
My sons 6x6 bull this year was shot in a near identical location. We were certain it was a 100% fatal shot. We let him sit for 45 minutes then bumped him. Waited an hour then bumped him again. Both times he went less than 100 yards and laid down. Couldn't get a shot either time before he saw or heard us because it was so thick. He wasn't really running but more stumbling and walking. The third time we followed him cautiously because he was moving so slow and you could hear him coughing, He headed for the thickest nastiest stuff on the mountain. We trailed him slowly initially by his coughing. Eventually we could see him and he was pretty out of it, bedded and not very attentive. We were finally able to get close enough for a final shot. We pushed a bit hard at the end because he was obviously suffering, it was getting dark and we had to head home that night. I am certain that if we left him he would have died by the look and sound of him at the end. It was a high double lung shot, clipped the back edge of the scapula on the way in and stuck in the off side hide. Chest cavity was full of blood with virtually no blood trail which is another reason we decided to stay on him. I am sure your shot was fatal, may have taken some time though like ours did.

From: Cut2Kill
16-Mar-21

Cut2Kill's embedded Photo
Cut2Kill's embedded Photo
Here is a picture of the above described elk. The initial shot entrance wound is just above his right G2.

From: Matt
16-Mar-21
I'd congratulate the fellow in the side by side on his bull.

From: Drnaln
16-Mar-21
GF....Not sure what you are missing? Bob paid money to go on an archery Tule Elk hunt & I'm sure he planned on entering a Tule into P&Y if he was successful. He enters all his critters & is a great supporter of the club. He puts a lethal arrow into a bull & shortly after someone finishes the same bull off with a rifle. Now Bob's elk is compromised for entry into the organization he supports so well & loves so much. Bob really doesn't want a Tule elk with a bullet hole in it & the shooter probably used some lame excuse to wack it. It wasn't like a Polar or Grizzly Bear was about to eat Bob!

From: Glunt@work
16-Mar-21
Dang, sorry about that. I can't imagine the client not being in a decision like that. I'm not familiar with the laws there but was that even legal for him to do?

16-Mar-21
Lethal shot. Is the outfitter's buddy a licensed guide? If not, I think he just poached.

From: Pat Lefemine
17-Mar-21
I had three animals with bullet holes. One was my grizzly charge and 100% justified. One was my mountain goat in Alaska and I green lit the outfitter before the goat went off a sheer cliff. But the 3rd one was a perfectly hit AK black bear that the outfitter got trigger happy about.

I know exactly how Bob feels. It diminishes the kill. I’m not 100% certain but Bob may be pursuing a slam? That would make this situation sting a little more.

I’m also curious about the situation and how the outfitter handled this? If it’s not rifle season is it even legal for someone to shoot an elk in CA? Can a 3rd party assist?

From: Nick Muche
17-Mar-21
Luckily we are blessed with a “shit post” from GG. His Moto is to “Leave no thread behind”...

From: Drnaln
17-Mar-21
Lots of the Tule elk hunts take place on ranches that are in the Private Lands Management program. With the PLM program the ranch owners & biologists set seasons & quotas for the property. Usually those hunts are any weapon hunts. I don't know where Bob's hunt took place but what happened shouldn't have. Maybe a wound policy was in place & the shooter thought he was doing Bob a favor? If the shooter didn't have a tag he probably broke the law? Their only defense would be the elk was suffering or getting away & that would be a stretch. The rancher doesn't want to pony up another $20,000+ tag for the elk. Terrible situation & I really feel bad for Bob.

From: Spiral Horn
17-Mar-21
Like Bob and Pat I’ve also had a few guides get far too trigger-happy on a bowhunt. Sometimes it is out of complete ignorance/inexperience with bowhunters and other times it was willful disregard. Stopped a few guides in the act of attempting a follow up shot, but twice had someone shoot a critter that I had lethally arrowed. Once was in Spain on an Ibex when a game official accompanying the hunt finished my Ibex (misunderstanding), and the other was on a monster black bear in BC - extremely arrogant guide who insisted he was right, although the massive blood trail told a very different story. Clearly they don’t have any concept of what an unnecessary follow-up bullet does to a bowhunt.

From: BlacktailBob
17-Mar-21
The elk laid down within 40 yards of the blind. If I could have shot from that side of the blind I could have easily put another arrow in him. I don't think if you hit an animal with a marginal mussel tissue wound, he's going to lay down that quick and stay there for 5 minutes.

I thought about getting out of the blind to try and get another arrow in him. But, there were still a couple dozen other elk around and he didn't appear to be going anywhere. I figured, just let him lay there and die. His head was on the ground, but then he would lift it and look around. I always figure your better off knowing where the animal is and just letting nature do its thing. Better than getting him up and pushing him off.

In defense of the rifle shooter. He did not have a tag by the way. It did appear the arrow didn't penetrate very far. But that's where having some degree of bow hunting experience comes into play. On shots that enter the chest cavity and don't go all the way through, when they hit the hide on the opposite side they often bounce back. That's what this arrow did.

He was no more than 100 yards from the blind when he was rifle killed. I'd say he was no more than 65 yards from the blind when he laid down the second time. Again, I don't know that for sure because I could not see him then. It was in a huge field at the edge of a creek. I couldn't see around the brush on the creek, but it wasn't far. He was pretty damn sick. I didn't get any offer for any type of reconsideration and the outfitter has never called me. Like I said he wasn't there at the time.

From: BlacktailBob
17-Mar-21
In response to comments on shot placement. I don't think it was a 12 ring shot my any stretch. It should have been and if it was none of this would have happened. My fault for not being more aware of the limitations of a six footer hunting out of a blind. I've not killed all that many critters out of a blind. Maybe a dozen or so. My top bow limb hit the top of the blind when I shot. The shot still hit the elk but a bit higher than where I wanted.

I think its what I call a high ten ring shot. Still in the lungs and still in the ten ring. Would have been much better had it been 5 inches lower. Same left-right placement.

From: DanaC
17-Mar-21
"He thought he was doing me a favor. Not so much. "

So, the outfitter was not there but his 'buddy' was. Was the 'buddy' helping with guiding or outfitting? Since he wasn't hunting.

"I've recently been told the outfitter is telling folks my shot was not a lethal wound."

Sounds to me this guy got slammed for shooting your elk, and your outfitter is trying to defend him rather than make things right with you. Have you called him?

From: Bou'bound
17-Mar-21
Bob

You did a great job. This is where hunting for reasons other than 100% self satisfaction can create an issue. You killed that bull with an arrow. You hunted him. You made a great shot. Deal closed move on. That is all that matters if the goal was self- satisfaction and knowing you executed as a bowhunter. you did that. the rest is just some administrative detail and unless there is some world record involved and a lot of money (which there really never would be for an elk anyway) it's really pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things.

If the real issue is " i can't put it in some book", or " i can't check off something on some man-made list" then that is a fact, but that does not take away from what you the bowhunter did with a bow in your hand and the knowledge that if he was give a little more time you would have walked up on him dead.

The rest is just a screw up and details that, in the end, matter not to anyone but you because in the end nobody else in the world cares if you killed or not and how it died or not.

I would say that is a better bow kill than if someone hit one really badly and tracked it for two days and found it dead then. that would have been a poorly execute hunt. Yours was clean and honorable. if you are not satisfied with what YOU did on this hunt then it is tainted. If you are not satisfied with what some stranger did on your hunt then that is your choice on how you let it effect YOUR view of YOUR accomplishment. The great thing is it is totally up to you how you chose to view it.

Would you have felt better about the experience if you choked badly at the moment of truth, hit him 3 feet back and high in the spine and he dropped on the spot and you walked up to him and stuck one in the lungs at 4 feet? How about an "ass shot" that severed the femoral artery and he went down in 25 yards. Those would have been a debacles of "bow kills", but you would have been able to publicize him differently.............if that matters to you.

Joy is a choice.

I think you did great and bless anyone who's bowhunting career is so spectacular that they can kill a tule elk at 18 yards and call it the "Worst day of "bowhunting" I've had in well over 50 years" . Please send some of your bad days my way ........... I would relish them.

From: Trad PA
17-Mar-21
Great post Bou. Additionally, the shot looks lethal and the bull “might” have died shortly thereafter but where would the line be drawn if he continued to travel and bed? One of those situations where an argument for the right choice can be made either way. In any event congrats on a great animal.

From: DonVathome
17-Mar-21
If I missed it sorry but what did the elk do after the rifle shot? I agree 100% with you and I bet that elk did not even get up and if he did he made it 2-3 steps. He probably just slumped down. A sure sign he was very nearly dead.

From: DonVathome
17-Mar-21
Also IMO I would be very frustrated and I know Tule hunts do not grow on trees. That said that was a bowkill and it should not take more then 1% away from it - imagine someone shooting him 5 minutes after you finished gutting him? That would not subtract from a bowkill - and I also suspect your elk was a couple minutes from stone cold dead.

17-Mar-21
My comment about shot placement was only in response to the question of lethality and my hypothesis of the timeframe and what could have occurred. I was not being hypercritical or disrespectful.

From: Beachtree
17-Mar-21
Lethal

From: BTM
17-Mar-21
Well said, Bou.

Unfortunately, these things happen even if you book through a "bow-friendly" booking agent and have an understanding with the outfitter, because who knows what the guide (or his friend) might end up doing. (It's happened to me.)

From: sticksender
17-Mar-21
Nightmare scenario....what a shame. PM sent.

From: LINK
17-Mar-21
Lethal and you have every right to be pissed. The way I see it they owe you a refund or a bow killed bull.

From: Inshart
17-Mar-21
Damn, Bob that really sucks! Bou made a nice post, but IMHO missed your point completely.

Several years ago I was hunting in a military preserve - no fences - I shot a nice buck that only went about 20 yards a tipped over. About 5 minutes later, while still in my tree, I saw 2 hunters obviously tracking "my deer".

Long story short, it had been shot twice previously which ended my excitement about killing the buck.

Different circumstances, but the "tainted" kill feeling completely botched my excitement and I totally understand Bob's disappointment --

Oh, we flipped a coin - heads I take the deer, tails they take it. I lost, it came up heads!

From: Drnaln
17-Mar-21
Without a tag the other person shot the bull illegally with a rifle. The Outfitter should own up to that & work something out with Bob. Not even contacting Bob about the situation is hard for me to fathom!

From: APauls
17-Mar-21
Frick that just sucks. No other way to say it. Just a sucky deal. Of course that shot was lethal. Any bowhunter left to his own devices would have been skinning later that day with no rifle help required. Just because an animal isn't stone dead in a 2 minute count doesn't mean all is lost. Sheesh.

With the bull bedding up so quickly that's definitely a situation that doesn't need any pushing.

From: iceman
17-Mar-21
bad scenario for sure. sorry to hear how this shook out for you

From: Lost Arra
17-Mar-21
I'm just amazed a guide or guide's buddy would shoot a rifle or any weapon at a client's elk during a bow hunt regardless of the shot location which, in this case, was a lethal shot. The cow I killed this year was hit in the same spot and the arrow also did not pass completely thru but broke. She ran 30 yards, stopped looked back at the water hole and tipped over. Was this an any-weapon hunt season? Even so, the tagless buddy broke the law.

From: welka
17-Mar-21
Glad you got him and saw the top of lung BH damage. I don't think it is more of a borderline "lethal" shot as you were within inches of missing the top of the lungs. If it would have been back a little more, probably more lethal. But, lucky got the hit you got with the bow hitting blind. Sucks what happened after.

From: Ron Niziolek
17-Mar-21
That was a dead elk Bob. Crappy outcome for you.

From: 12yards
17-Mar-21
Dang, I wouldn't have thought that elk would have lived very long with that hit.

From: stealthycat
17-Mar-21
contrary to what many think - a double lunged animal can travel a good distance and live for several minutes or more - why some die in 10 seconds and others live for minutes I don't know

From: njbuck
17-Mar-21
That bull was no doubt going to die. Hard to believe it lasted as long as he did prior to getting shot with the rifle. I can not believe that that happened to you. In my opinion the person who shot the bull with the rifle needs to tag that bull. The outfitter should make it right for you.

From: GF
17-Mar-21
“ GF....Not sure what you are missing? ”

Well, thanks to a thoughtful PM from Jaq, I’m up to speed on all manner of things that were completely off of my radar....

Which is why I asked what I was missing. As a rule, when I don’t understand, I will ask questions, rather than remain ignorant.

That said, I think Bou raised a lot of good points as to the personal satisfaction and the ethics of it all. The rest strikes me as administrative BS. The the thought that the unauthorized actions of some 3rd party should in any way be allowed to reflect on Bob’s hunt is about as B-Essy as BS gets.

But if you have shelled out serious bucks for a kind of unique hunt, then the outfitter oughtta know the score and act accordingly. To the limited extent that I’m following this one, it sounds like somebody did NOT get the memo...

Of course, you guys DO recognize how bad the optics are if we act like we think it’s a good idea to allow an animal to expire more slowly than necessary just to satisfy a requirement for inclusion in a book or qualify for a list, right? To a non-hunter, tolerating avoidable suffering is just NOT going to fly, for any reason.... for that “reason” to be about recognition for the hunter just plays into all of the most negative perceptions/misperceptions/distortions/stereotypes about “trophy” hunting....

So I guess I’d say Bob has a very legitimate beef here; I just don’t think it’s helpful to air it publicly.

From: x-man
17-Mar-21
I want to know what the Conservation Officer said. If you didn't call one, then you have no reason to complain in my opinion.

From: GhostBird
17-Mar-21
Lethal shot for sure. Really bad outcome however. Not pretty at all.

Sorry your hunt was ruined Bob. I know it would put a very bad taste in my mouth.

From: Drnaln
17-Mar-21
GF....Worrying about optics? Most archery taken critters don't expire instantly on the spot. How about the optics of another person without a tag illegally shooting another persons elk with a rifle so that elk wouldn't get away? That's some bad optics!

From: BlacktailBob
17-Mar-21
No way I was going to report any of this to a conservation officer.

I've had several PM's regarding this and I don't even want to say who the outfitter was. I wish him no ill will and I don't wish his buddy any ill will either. He really thought he was doing me a favor and acted in what he thought was my best interest, He just didn't know or understand from a bow hunters perspective.

I just don't think its appropriate to promulgate the wrong message about what actually happened. The elk was dead on his feet, end of story. Wasn't more than 15 minutes from when I shot the elk to when outfitters buddy shot the elk.

I recently had a buddy of mine come back from the same place and tell me what he had heard there at the camp. Simply wasn't the truth about what happened. I guess if I was an outfitter I wouldn't want the real story out and about either.

From: Supernaut
17-Mar-21
Lethal hit I'd say.

Bob, sorry for the events after your shot.

GF, I would think that an archery hunting website is the ideal platform for Bob to discuss his experience with us. No disrespect meant but if he can't talk about it here then why even have hunting forums?

From: tobywon
17-Mar-21
From what you describe Bob, lethal hit. No way that elk or any other animal would have laid down in that short of distance if it wasn't a lethal hit. Sorry to hear.

From: Glunt@work
17-Mar-21
If the plan is not seeing this go further. Deleting this thread would be prudent.

From: BlacktailBob
17-Mar-21
Don't want to leave the wrong message. When the elk was shot, he wasn't lying down. He had gotten up from his second bed. I think he got up from the noise of the side by side approaching. The second bull obviously spooked from the side by side. I think my bull got up and started walking off when the second bull left. I couldn't see exactly what happened at this point, so I don't know for sure. Where the bull died was maybe 40 yards from where he had been lying in his second bed. When I looked for the arrow afterward, I did see where he had been lying.

Regarding deleting the post. I would advise anyone going on one of these hunts, especially when you have thousands (tens of thousands) of dollars invested them, to have the discussion about when to use a rifle. I didn't do that and I should have. I have no doubt that had I explained to the guy about what my objectives were for the hunt, he would not have shot the elk.

Likewise, for many, it would have been no big deal. That wasn't the case for me. It was indeed a hunt I booked to move along the path of a particular goal. That's not for everyone, but for many of us it is. I understand arguments on either side of that debate and no longer wish to engage in the debate. To each his own. But if you get anything from this discussion, and you want to accomplish a bow kill, make sure you talk with your guide about what to do in a situation like I was in.

I recently had LDJ backing me up and filming on a bear hunt. Like I told Larry, don't shoot the bear if it looks like he's just going to chew on me a bit. Only shoot the bear if it looks like he's going to kill me. Luckily, Larry's been around the block, many times, and when it came time to pick up either the shotgun or the camera, Larry opted for the camera. Look for that on Bowhunter TV sometime in the fall I think.

From: Rock
17-Mar-21
Bob, You made a good shot on that Bull and he was dead on his feet if they had just left him alone it would have been a totally different outcome. It is hard dealing with people that are not knowledgable about Bowhunting and how an arrow works. I have sat down and talked to guide/outfitters many times to explain that I did not want any bullet holes in anything I shot. So far I have not had to deal with what you are going thru now.

From: 12yards
17-Mar-21
BlacktailBob, do you mind sharing what broadhead you used? Or maybe you did. If you don't want to I understand.

From: BlacktailBob
17-Mar-21
Not interested in a broadhead debate. Broadhead had no influence on the situation.

From: bowhunt
17-Mar-21
That was a dead bull. I don't think you did anything wrong not talking to the outfitter ahead of time what your goals were. You paid for a hunt. You bought the tag. You shot the elk.

The main part I'm confused about is did the other guy that shot the bull with the rifle have a tag, and did he tag the bull after shooting it? It sounds more like he was hanging out and thought he was finishing the bull off for you, and still had you tag it.

If he didn't have a tag I don't see anyway that could even be legal.

For me personally I would have been irritated, but I would know I had killed the bull. In your circumstances wanting to enter in the books, I would be irate and demand the other guy tag the bull if he didn't. I would also be telling the outfitter to book me for another hunt. The outfitter shouldn't have people running around the ranch shooting elk with a rifle that paying customers paid to hunt with a bow.

From: KHunter
17-Mar-21
"This was all being watched from the ranch house"

And in no time at all a numbskull immediately thinks it is appropriate to buzz down there in a )&**&%^damn loud side-by-side, within 100 yards of a bowhunter in a ground blind and his wounded elk and he thinks that is 'being helpful'.

The whole thing is just stinks.

17-Mar-21
Looks like a good hit Bob. Best of luck chasing your goal!

From: Hoot
17-Mar-21
Bou makes a great point, but KHunter makes the best point IMO!

The fact that the outfitter is trying to change the story is telling of itself. I know you’re not interested in outing the outfitter, but I really hope he reads this post...

Bob, that stinks, I hope you get another shot at it and it doesn’t cost you tens of thousands. The outfitter should try to make this right with you but it doesn’t sound like he’s interested in that.

From: smurph
17-Mar-21
I was wondering about the broadhead too? Seems like a reasonable question too me. When a shot looks good but doesn't produce the expected result, I personally, would be considering a broadhead issue.

From: Drnaln
17-Mar-21
I can see why Bob doesn't post much on Bowsite anymore. How can anyone consider this a broadhead issue when the elk wasn't given enough time for the broadhead to do it's job?

From: Old School
17-Mar-21
Sorry to hear about your bad experience Bob.

Hindsight is as they say 20/20; but who would even imagine the need to discuss this possibility up front? It’s not like you were hunting Griz - and a rifle “backup” shooter was necessary, it was an elk.

I would never imagine having to tell an outfitter “Don’t come rifle kill an elk that I shoot, I will be ok all on my own...”

From: bowhunt
17-Mar-21
That shot placement puts the broad head through the top of the lungs. The elk would die but can take a little bit. I have seen animals hit right around there run 500 yards, and have also seen one shot just about exactly like this bull that went about 400 yards. After following a pretty massive blood trail it was still alive 40 minutes after the shot, but not doing well at all. I had to sneek up and shoot it again. The first shot was with a 2 inch spitfire, can't put much bigger of a hole through 2 lungs than that. I couldn't believe the animal was still alive that long.

From: Glunt@work
17-Mar-21
I just dumbfounded that this happens without your consent or at least involvement, with an outfit that does tule hunts. Not like renting a goose pit for the day.

From: smurph
17-Mar-21
I was reading the original post that that asks "is this a lethal wound". Shot placement and penetration reported to be good by all accounts. Why would a person not question the type and condition of the broadhead. It could have everything to do with the result or nothing. But, apparently we can't discuss that for some unknown reason.

From: zeke
17-Mar-21
If the arrow in the elk created a "none lethal wound" then the outfitter's buddy killed the none lethally hit elk with a rifle. If he did not tag the elk, he lethally shot with a rifle, he is a poacher. If BlacktailBob didn't lethally arrow the bull his hunt should not have be over. Is there something I'm missing?

From: JM
17-Mar-21
I have had a very similar thing happen to me, so I know the feeling.

The issue is that Bob should have had the opportunity to make the decision himself either to try and stalk the animal with the bow or shoot it with the rifle. By the guide making the decision on his own it is kind of like stealing the hunt from Bob.

By the way on my Brown Bear hunts I told the guide he didn't have to wait for the bear to start chewing on me to shoot him, if he was drooling it was okay to shoot :)

From: x-man
17-Mar-21
Guys bringing up the BH question are the guys who remember back a few years when Bob was teaching us about how he uses the same BH over again without sharpening because dull heads kill just as good as sharp ones......

From: Jaquomo
17-Mar-21
I don't want to speak for Bob, but as far as the "poaching" aspect, I believe ranches with Tules are issued a certain number of licenses.

17-Mar-21
To Bou'bound and the people agreeing with him, I'd like to humbly point out that this hunt was neither the outfitter's friend's hunt, nor yours. This was Bob's hunt. He paid for it. It doesn't matter how you would feel in this situation. It matters how Bob feels and Bob wanted to kill his elk with a bow without it being finished off (actual cause of death) with a rifle. That's his right as he paid for the hunt and he was the one with the tag.

All the "wells" and "what ifs" don't matter. What happened, happened and Bob was left with a bad taste in his mouth because control of his hunt was taken out of his hands by the decision of another person. No one likes decisions made for them, no matter how well-intentioned.

And while it may be your opinion that Bob shouldn't give two hoots, he does. And there's a lot of us who completely understand that. Your opinion is just that, an opinion. But it's Bob's hunt, so only his opinion matters. What he asked as far as opinions, was if it was a lethal shot, not if he should be ok with it getting shot with a rifle by another person.

Personally, I don't even want my animals killed by someone else's bow, much less a rifle. I want to kill my own animals by my bow. If I wanted to party hunt, I'd party hunt. If I wanted my animals killed with a rifle, I'd use a rifle. If I wanted backup, I'd ask for backup. Because that's how I hunt and that's what brings me satisfaction on my hunt. How you hunt has no bearing on Bob's hunt.

EDIT: Nothing humble about that post. Change "humbly" to "respectfully."

17-Mar-21
Well said Ike

From: Matt
17-Mar-21
X2

Unless there is a conversation in advance or the guide called to the house and asked for the rifle, no way that should have happened.

From: Oryx35
17-Mar-21
Well said Idyll.

From: GF
17-Mar-21
FWIW, I think Bou’s post made some valid points about aspects that have nothing to do with Bob and therefore should not be perceived by anyone to be material to or to in any way detract from Bob’s hunt.

Where I came in in this thread, I had no clue about the cost of this deal or what Bob’s goals & requirements were, going in. But the outfitter did and certainly should have. The 3rd party had absolutely zero business getting involved without Bob’s express invitation to do so.

And Bob was the customer who paid full freight and got less than he bargained for purely because of the actions of that 3rd party. So yeah, JMO, from a business standpoint, somebody owes Bob another crack at a bull or a very substantial refund.

And I can see why the outfitter would not want people to think that if they were to spend (with him) for a hunt offering a P&Y-eligible bull, they might have that eligibility snatched out from under them without very good cause... but in this case there is the suggestion that Bob screwed up, which I don’t have any specific reason to believe that he did, so it sort of feels like the outfitter’s “buddy” heffed up and now Bob’s getting thrown under the bus.... which is crap.

But it still feels like one of those things best addressed quietly and privately; not here, other than to remind prospective clients to make their needs and expectations crystal clear Up Front.

From: HUNT MAN
17-Mar-21
This^^^^^^

From: Scooby-doo
18-Mar-21
Leave him lay a bit and he is dead in a couple hrs. No exit hole hurts as you are not deflating his lungs completely. Pretty lousy the guide did not talk trhe situation over with you and let you make the call. I am sure you would of waited and after several hrs most likely been able to go get a dead elk and if not at least get in in him and put a finishing arrow in him. Very sad when folks who actually guide for a living don't have a clue what they are doing!! Sorry! Shawn

From: 12yards
18-Mar-21
I agree with Ike.

From: Teeton
18-Mar-21
I would of flipped out. But I learned from your experience. That I will have a talk with the outfitter and or guides. So that what happened to you, don't happen to me. Ed

From: CFMuley
18-Mar-21
You are a much calmer man than myself, but I suppose myself only being 24 is probably a big part of that. The only hunt I’ve had rifle backup on was an archery bison hunt. I knew the guide fairly well, and consider him a friend. I told him that I wouldn’t consider it my Buffalo if he put a bullet in one I had hit and we weren’t in immediate danger. He said no problem at all and he completely understood. Ending up being a non issue, but it was discussed beforehand. In your situation I wouldn’t have felt the need to even address this prior to hunting. No one in their right mind should ever consider finishing a tule for a hunter. I would have been seeing red walking up to the person in the side by side. The guide owes you some sort of compensation. This isn’t an “oops, sorry about your luck” situation. Any outfitter selling hunts for that amount knows the ins and outs of what peoples goals are on those hunts, and I can guarantee none of those goals include walking up on “your” bull after someone finished it for you.

From: Rgiesey
18-Mar-21
I feel bad for you Bob! My opinion is with some experience, on these higher dollar deals you’re subject to the outfitter, landowners rules no matter what your experience as a bowhunter tells you should be done. Talking it over beforehand wouldn’t have changed the outcome. For me I decided I wasn’t interested in playing by those rules. I don’t think Bob did anything wrong other than not shooting the top of that bulls heart off.

From: 320 bull
20-Mar-21
Had a very similar shot on a bull at 15 yards a few years back. He went about 250 yards and bedded. We jumped him 3 hours later out of his first bed. He looked bad when we jumped him so we sat down there and waited. He death moaned 5 minutes later 80 yards away. So based on that my opinion is lethal shot. Gonna take a minute but in the end he's done. Especially after bedding twice. As far as your situation I feel that if the outfitter knew your goals and understood them and he allowed a "buddy" to eliminate your ability to achieve your goal he has some serious responsibility. Its a very unfortunate situation for sure.

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