Moultrie Products
Wyoming 90/10 Task Force
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Jims 18-Jun-21
LINK 18-Jun-21
Scoot 18-Jun-21
Sivart 18-Jun-21
Brotsky 18-Jun-21
Jethro 18-Jun-21
YZF-88 18-Jun-21
Jims 18-Jun-21
JohnMC 18-Jun-21
'Ike' (Phone) 18-Jun-21
Lost Arra 18-Jun-21
'Ike' (Phone) 18-Jun-21
YZF-88 18-Jun-21
WapitiBob 18-Jun-21
Aspen Ghost 18-Jun-21
Lost Arra 18-Jun-21
Tracker 18-Jun-21
midwest 18-Jun-21
'Ike' (Phone) 18-Jun-21
WYOelker 18-Jun-21
BULELK1 19-Jun-21
Lost Arra 19-Jun-21
DonVathome 19-Jun-21
Jims 19-Jun-21
Stix 19-Jun-21
JL 19-Jun-21
Stix 19-Jun-21
JohnMC 19-Jun-21
YZF-88 19-Jun-21
'Ike' (Phone) 19-Jun-21
wyobullshooter 19-Jun-21
Zim 20-Jun-21
Steve H. 20-Jun-21
Pop-r 20-Jun-21
Inshart 20-Jun-21
Mule Power 20-Jun-21
ELKMAN 20-Jun-21
Stringcheesehead 20-Jun-21
wyobullshooter 20-Jun-21
Stix 20-Jun-21
Buffalo1 20-Jun-21
Jims 20-Jun-21
wytex 20-Jun-21
Habitat 21-Jun-21
Shrewski 21-Jun-21
Inshart 21-Jun-21
wytex 21-Jun-21
320 bull 21-Jun-21
'Ike' (Phone) 21-Jun-21
Jims 22-Jun-21
Jims 22-Jun-21
'Ike' (Phone) 22-Jun-21
Copperhead 23-Jun-21
Mark 25-Jun-21
Copperhead 25-Jun-21
Matte 25-Jun-21
Jims 08-Jul-21
Lost Arra 08-Jul-21
JL 08-Jul-21
wytex 08-Jul-21
Lost Arra 08-Jul-21
WapitiBob 08-Jul-21
'Ike' (Phone) 08-Jul-21
Shrewski 08-Jul-21
WapitiBob 08-Jul-21
wytex 08-Jul-21
'Ike' (Phone) 08-Jul-21
WYOelker 08-Jul-21
Zim 08-Jul-21
Shrewski 08-Jul-21
WapitiBob 09-Jul-21
'Ike' (Phone) 09-Jul-21
Jims 09-Jul-21
wytex 09-Jul-21
Shrewski 09-Jul-21
Jims 10-Jul-21
JL 10-Jul-21
WapitiBob 10-Jul-21
Jims 10-Jul-21
'Ike' (Phone) 10-Jul-21
WapitiBob 10-Jul-21
Shrewski 10-Jul-21
JL 10-Jul-21
elkocd 11-Jul-21
Old Bow 12-Jul-21
Bob H in NH 12-Jul-21
Huntcell 12-Jul-21
Inshart 12-Jul-21
wyobullshooter 12-Jul-21
wytex 12-Jul-21
KHNC 12-Jul-21
wyobullshooter 12-Jul-21
Old Bow 12-Jul-21
'Ike' (Phone) 12-Jul-21
Willieboat 12-Jul-21
'Ike' (Phone) 12-Jul-21
elkocd 13-Jul-21
Jims 16-Jul-21
Deertick 16-Jul-21
JL 16-Jul-21
'Ike' (Phone) 16-Jul-21
Jims 23-Jul-21
BigEight 23-Jul-21
Rocky D 23-Jul-21
Rocky D 23-Jul-21
JL 23-Jul-21
Jims 23-Jul-21
'Ike' (Phone) 23-Jul-21
jm77 24-Jul-21
Jims 24-Jul-21
Jims 24-Jul-21
jm77 24-Jul-21
Jims 24-Jul-21
WapitiBob 24-Jul-21
'Ike' 24-Jul-21
Missouribreaks 24-Jul-21
WapitiBob 24-Jul-21
From: Jims
18-Jun-21
Calling all Wyo nonres!

Are you aware that Wyoming has a task force that currently is meeting and figuring out strategies for stripping nonres of limited big game tags? Are you aware that Wyo outfitters could potentially strip DIY nonres hunters of tags similar to what New Mexico did several years ago?

Are you aware that with 90/10 that 1/2 of the current high demand nonres tags would be stripped from nonres? Cutting nonres limited tags in 1/2 carries a major impact to nonres while it only provides a handful more tags/unit to Wyoming residents. If you think point creep is bad now wait until it takes twice as long to draw high demand tags! The economic impacts to Wyo small town communities and the WG&F are also a reality!

If you are a DIY hunter that enjoys hunting without hiring an outfitter/guide I would also suggest providing comments to the task force. High demand tags could be taken directly away from the nonres hunter pool similar to what was done in New Mexico.

Now's your chance to speak up and voice your opinion! If you are a concerned nonres please send your comments to the task force. The more nonres that flood the task force with comments the more attention we can make! There is no one on the task force other than outfitters that are voicing DIY nonres hunters recommendations so make your voice made! Make sure to provide constructive comments at the following website.

Here's a link to the task forces website: https://sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce/home/public-input

From: LINK
18-Jun-21

LINK's Link
Click on link for website.

From: Scoot
18-Jun-21
I've been both pro DIY and pro outfitter for a long time. I no longer can support outfitters. The outfitter organizations that are pushing hard, with ties to politicians purse strings, have given me no choice at this point. It's BS and totally underhanded, but they benefit from it and get away with it. Look at what was done in Montana-- should be criminal! It's a great effort to F the future of hunting and to continue even faster down a path that will make hunting a rich man's game and nothing more. This issue absolutely infuriates me.

From: Sivart
18-Jun-21
It does absolutely suck.

At first, I tried looking at this from the state's standpoint (why wouldn't they fight against this). And I just realized, they don't care, why would they. They're going to sell the same amount of tags, regardless if it's to a DYI hunter, or a hunter going w/ an outfitter.

From: Brotsky
18-Jun-21
Agree with you 100% Scoot. I sit on the board of our state association. We recently tried to get some common sense rules in to benefit public lands hunters (both R and NR) and were dismissed without any serious consideration. The LO and Outfitter Alliance here has a closed door meeting with the game commission and voila they get exactly what they asked for regarding tag allocations/permits when were shot down asking for like changes. It continues to get worse and worse all across the west. I know the crew on here thinks our Governor walks on water but she is the most corrupt, underhanded, and anti-public lands hunter that has ever sat in Pierre. Been fighting her and her backwards initiatives for two years and will be doing it for 2 more.

From: Jethro
18-Jun-21
When the 90/10 split was in legislative committee earlier this year, the outfitter association spoke out against it. Why would they want less NR tags?

As far as WY making a move like NM outfitter welfare, I'd have to hear more details on that. Never heard any news on that before now.

From: YZF-88
18-Jun-21
States moving the goalpost like this is a good reason anyone starting out should AVOID buying points IF they are on the fence.

From: Jims
18-Jun-21
For those that are unaware of what is going on in Wyo with 90/10 I thought I would pass along a link to one of their blogs that summarizes what's gone on the past couple years. Wyo DIY nonres only have outfitters support and no other voice in the new formed task force. It is a love=hate relationship if you are a DIY nonres in Wyo like me! If you enjoy hunting Wyo please keep an eye on 90/10 and be willing to provide comments to the work force and legislators!

The Quick, Fiery Death of Wyoming Senate Bill SF0103 Guy Eastman, Editor-In-Chief March 31, 2021 Regulations 11 Comments 3,602 Views

Rest easy- Your hunting licenses will not be increasing by 85%, for now.

Keeping with tradition, the odd years in Wyoming bring odd and sometimes tired old retreads of legislative bills gone by the wayside from the past legislative session. Senate bill SF0103 is one such case. This bill has been refined from the last time it was introduced but still lacked any real serious support at the state legislative level. The bill failed miserably to emerge from the senate TRW (Travel, Recreation and Wildlife) committee by a vote of 1-4, meaning this proposal was far from favorable once the Committee looked further into the repercussions of such a bill on the Game and Fish Commissions fiscal responsibilities to the state’s sportsman and the department as a whole.

On a bit of a side note, Wyoming is a very traditional and conservative state by nature. Bills like these have a very, very tough road to reality in Wyoming. When it comes to wildlife related legislation, the state has a very guarded approach to wildlife related bills that do not have the full support of the Governor’s Game and Fish Commission. Wyoming sees wildlife management through ballot measures and stiff-arm legislation as a true threat to their system. I do not see our Governor ever signing a piece of wildlife related legislation without the full consent and recommendation of the Game and Fish Commission, period. The Governor appoints the commission at his discretion for a reason. There are lessons to be learned from the Colorado wolf reintroduction debacle.

The details of this bill are somewhat straightforward which is surprising for politics these days, but this is Wyoming after-all. In a nutshell, this bill aimed to cut the nonresident tag allocation for big game licenses to less than 10% from the historic norms of around 20%, depending on the species (moose-16%, sheep-25%, deer, elk and antelope-20%). The original bill introduced a few years ago was very simple and straightforward to that change. But the bill quickly ran into a brick wall regarding funding concerns given the fact that nonresident hunters contribute a massive haul of more than 77% of the total licensing revenue generated by the state of Wyoming. In addition, nonresident applicants in Wyoming contribute more than $12,000,000 worth of preference point fees each and every year to the Wyoming Game and Fish Department’s budget, while resident applicants only pony up an anemic $100,000. Plain and simple, slashing nonresident hunting licenses by half did not sit well with Wyoming legislators, Game and Fish Commissioners, Outfitters or our Governor. The original bill died quickly.

With the bloom of another legislative year brings another opportunity at a run for this bill as a more refined version including a funding realignment component that would, according to the bill, actually increase revenues to the state Game and Fish Department. This new retreaded bill, Senate Bill SF0103 again sought to cut the nonresident tag allocations by more than half, but also sought to nearly double the cost of what tags were left to nonresident hunters and applicants. In addition, the bill seeks to increase application fees slightly for both resident and nonresident hunters ($5 to $7 for resident, and $15 to $17 for nonresident) alike. The bill would also eliminate nonresident applicants from any hunt that garners less than 10 tags in the quota altogether and would create a $500,000 wildlife crop damage fund with the increased license fees, obviously a landowner crumb thrown in to increase potential legislator support.

The net result would be an $8 million increase in net revenue funding to the Game and Fish Department for the 2023 fiscal year. I assume that figure is correct given it was computed and verified by the folks cooking up the bill, but I did not take the time to back calculate the number as fact.

Some of the obvious problems with this bill include the fact that this bill would literally gut and neuter the nonresident preference point system as it stands. There would no longer be enough nonresident tags allocated into the system to operate the current dual application system placing all nonresidents into one single draw pool, essentially eliminating the “Regular” draw pool and placing everyone into the “Special” draw pool with massively increased fees. I also think this would probably collapse the Wyoming preference point system with demand. The state of Wyoming is seeing massive influxes of applicants into the system currently. For instance, five years ago Wyoming had a total of 67,000 total applicants with elk preference points inside the system, this year there will be nearly 125,000 nonresident applicants vying for an elk tag in the Cowboy State. This represents a massive increase of 87% or nearly 58,000 applicants! The system is not sustainable as it currently sits, without cutting the available tags in half.

The negative economic impacts to the state tourism industry would also be less than ideal as nonresident hunters contribute tens of millions of dollars to our economy each and every year in areas that otherwise see very little tourism dollars during the very busy summer months. The guiding and outfitting industries in Wyoming are a vital sector of our seasonal economy, like it or not. The hunting season also extends the tourism season by nearly two months in Wyoming towns like Jackson, Cody and Sheridan.

And of course, there is always the risk of making hunting more and more of a “rich man’s” endeavor with massive price escalations such as those proposed in this bill. The cost of a nonresident elk tag would increase by 59%, 76% for deer and a whopping 85% for antelope.

As for the resident perspective on all of this. I certainly do not speak for myself here. Most residents I talk to, do seem a bit intrigued by a potential increase in their share of Wyoming’s hunting bounty, but all in all really don’t think it is a fight worth having at this point. If it isn’t broke don’t fix it kind of deal. As a resident myself, I can understand that line of thinking. Would it be nice to get a few more tags for ourselves? Yeah probably, but is it worth the damage to our department and our economy? Probably not. The last thing we want as residents is our Game and Fish Department depending more on resident dollars to make their budgets work. Is the $62 resident elk tag nice to have? Yes, however that price comes as a sacrifice by the nonresident hunter. The more we depend on nonresident dollars for wildlife funding the more the state must consider nonresident concerns with regard to our wildlife management decisions. A potential down the road risk if you ask me.

And let’s face it, putting 741 bull elk tags back into the resident system of over 10,000 total elk tags really won’t change your draw odds by very much in the end. There’s no magic, hard tags are going to be hard to draw no matter what you do.

Be careful what you wish for. I have talked to numerous out of state hunters that are fed up with the tough draws and increasing prices in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho and rebelling from the system not by dropping their applications, but by moving there to gain residency. This will undoubtedly increase the demand on the resident application systems throughout the West in the future, which could actually play into the need for bills like this in future.

If you look at this bill fairly however, one could make a very strong argument for a future tag allocation realignment for nonresident applicants. Particularly when you compare Wyoming’s very, very generous nonresident allocation to that of other neighboring states. A 25% nonresident tag allocation for bighorn sheep seems extreme when compared to most other states in the West where a 5% allocation is more the norm.

No matter what you think of Senate Bill SF0103, the signs all point to increased nonresident tag prices and reduced nonresident tag allocations throughout the West for the future. There just isn’t enough wildlife resources in the West for the increasing, massive demand we are seeing headed our way. The CoVid-19 pandemic is creating a massive population redistribution throughout the country and conservative Western states are seeing more than their fair share of new residents making this situation accelerate even faster.

From: JohnMC
18-Jun-21
I bet the power that be in CO are excited more out state hunters to charge to crowd into already too crowded OTC units. Wish CO would limit out of staters…

18-Jun-21
How’s that NM thing working out?!? Nothing will change, WY will still sell tags…

From: Lost Arra
18-Jun-21
Wyoming could double all NR tag prices tomorrow and they would still sell out. Applications and pref point purchases would fall but the tags would still sell. They could probably triple Resident tag prices and it wouldn't affect tag sales either.

18-Jun-21
Right now it looks like the Big 5, things change other than that and we’ll see…

From: YZF-88
18-Jun-21
Feeling really dumb for not dumping my elk points this year. I did with antelope at least.

From: WapitiBob
18-Jun-21
Residents want more tags, not real difficult to understand. 16% Elk and 20% for antelope is way more than most would volunteer.

From: Aspen Ghost
18-Jun-21
If I was a resident I would likely have a different opinion than I do as a nonresident of if and how to issue tags to nonresidents. In the end it's up to each state to decide. I really doubt that my opinion as a nonresident will in any way affect the decision a state will make.

From: Lost Arra
18-Jun-21
wapitibob: at 90-10 the residents will still be unhappy when they don't draw a local tag and think those nr trucks are the problem. Too many people want to hunt plus elk and antelope are in only a few states.

From: Tracker
18-Jun-21
Used my antelope points up this year. Deer next year and Im out of the point system.

From: midwest
18-Jun-21
Too many people, too small of a planet.

18-Jun-21
Just look at the Left Over Tag list…That tells a lot, from years ago, when you could grab a few good leftover tags…Not anymore!

From: WYOelker
18-Jun-21
Just FYI… 2019 WY tag sales…

Of all Antelope tags available, 52% went to Nonresidents, 32% of all deer tags sold went to NR

18% of elk tags went to NR.

Starting with the Big 5 is a great start. Residents should have a significant advantage with Sheep, Moose, Goats, Bison and Griz.

As for the outfitters and landowners. A lot of WY is opposed outfitter welfare, even talk about dropping the wilderness rules. There is concerns about DIY by there is likely something that will have to give for us to accomplish 90/10. Maybe a percent of all tags goes to a private land only tag? Not sure but something.

Another thing many are not addressing in this equation is the influx that WY is seeing. People are flocking to WY and nearly everyone who is heading this way is doing it for hunting and fishing and outdoors. With our relatively low population even 60,000 new people is a pretty big influx! And a great reason for us to work on Resident needs!!

From: BULELK1
19-Jun-21
I can see the 90/10 % on the Big 5 happening Faster than on the elk/deer/antelope.

Good luck, Robb

From: Lost Arra
19-Jun-21
WYOelker: I believe those nr numbers especially deer and antelope are due to leftover tags after the resident draw. If they are "leftover" why shouldn't the G&F make those tags available to nr at a much higher price? As my Wyoming buddy told me: "any resident can hunt antelope, deer and elk every year but it might not be exactly the location they prefer to hunt".

From: DonVathome
19-Jun-21
In the past decade WY has sent me 2 questionnaires. Both were clearly designed to figure out:

1. How to make the most money from the NR 2. How to give the NR the fewest tags 3. How to keep the NR applying for as long as possible

From: Jims
19-Jun-21
Lost Arra is correct. The nr numbers especially deer and antelope are due to leftover tags after the resident draw. A lot of nonres also buy doe tags. It's the limited tags that Wyo res are trying to gobble up.

The big consideration with 90/10 is that nonres tags will be cut in 1/2 and it will take twice as many years for nonres to draw tags. The handful of additional res tags is only 1 to a handful in any given unit and it really won't increase Wyo res draw odds. Is it really worth it to significantly reduce nonres opportunity and revenue to the WG&F and small town communities?

From: Stix
19-Jun-21
Good for Wyoming! Hoping to do the same in Colorado. Resident hunters should be given preference! Would like to see further restrictions. Like non residents can only choose from leftover tags.

From: JL
19-Jun-21
^....Stix....are you willing to have your res tag prices go up 5x to 10x's to make up for the loss of NR revenue? Do the math.....if NR revenue is drastically reduced...guess who will make it up? Res hunters will start to complain about why the cost of their tags skyrocketed. Next....the non-hunters or anti's will have to pay more in taxes to make up for the NR revenue shortfall. Does anyone want the anti's getting involved in wildlife decisions? I can see a domino effect happening.

Said it before and I'll say it again....if you're a member of any national sportsman group/association (RMEF, MU, NRA, DU, SCI, etc) and you don't like the way things are going in these states, get your group/association involved.

From: Stix
19-Jun-21
I,m not saying that non-residence cant hunt , but should be restricted to OTC units and leftover and secondary draw tags. Give residents complete preference for draw tags.

From: JohnMC
19-Jun-21
Hell yes I would pay 5x or 10x to hunt in CO if we could get rid of most of the out of staters. The rampant number of out of staters hunting OTC in CO has ruined it. CO is the only state that let in a unlimited number of out of staters hunt elk. CPW or any other governmental agency will never have enough money does not matter if you cut their budget in half or double it.

From: YZF-88
19-Jun-21
I completely understand residents wanting more tags even if their draw odds will go up a fraction of a percent.

It just sucks to have the goalposts dug out and moved over the horizon for those who have been in the game because of the allocations that have been in place for about 15 years.

19-Jun-21
Oh well, is what it is…

19-Jun-21
I certainly understand the frustration on both sides. It sucks if you’ve been playing by the rules for years, yet they change the rules in the middle of the game. Obviously I also understand the frustration of us residents. Bottom line, it all boils down to what midwest pointed out. Growing demand for a shrinking resource. Unfortunately, it’s only going to grow exponentially worse.

From: Zim
20-Jun-21
Nothing new here. Read the writing on the NR wall and burned or dumped all my points 2/3 years ago. Just got 6 elk left which is no man’s land anyway. Would be glad to burn those for a general if need be. I will continue to apply there, but strictly for low tier opportunity type hunts. Hell bent on not getting left holding the bag, and I won't be. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Happened in too many other states. Lol

From: Steve H.
20-Jun-21
How many of Wyoming's tags do YOU think NRs should be entitled to? I'm 0% in favor of outfitter welfare and tags specifically for their clients. Residents don't seem to be getting their/our fair share. 90/10 is probably a reasonable number.

From: Pop-r
20-Jun-21
Some people here amaze me that they think some things much less say them. The world is full of idiots! Along with this task force.

From: Inshart
20-Jun-21
I absolutely agree that the residents should be at the top of the list for being able to hunt before the "out of state trucks" take over "your" hunting areas! But IMHO the "powers that be" could give a crap about hunting/hunters EXCEPT for the money generated into the states/governments pockets. With the non-resident coughing up over 3/4 of those revenues not sure how you balance that, except for taking the "Joe Hunter" out of the equation and making it a rich mans sport. AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE OUTFITTERS WOULD LIKE TO SEE!

Do away with us common folk who only spend about $1,500.00 a year on food motel/hotel, gas, goodies, etc., etc., going out west (not including licenses of course).

Hell, the way this government is going the lib-tards are going to turn it into a communist country anyway and hunting will be way down on the list of things to be concerned about!

From: Mule Power
20-Jun-21
I live in Pa. Unlike some of the eastern states where we have elk hunting we allow non res hunters to apply here. I’ll probably never draw a license in my home state. I have lived in Montana and definitely felt like there were sacrifices to be able to walk into Bob Ward’s Sporting Goods and buy a hunting license. I have friends there as well as in Wyoming. The ones in Wyoming have it made in my opinion. There’s always a couple of them that draw licenses that take max points for a non res hunter. I don’t agree that the resource is shrinking. Mulies maybe but not elk. I think up until now the system has been working fine. It provides opportunities for all of us. Other than Idaho there’s not a state with a more well balanced system. So my thought us if it isn’t broke wtf do you have to fix it. A couple times each year I see a thread about a new proposal and they all seem to suck. I can accept the rise in cost and point creep is what it is…. Which is bad enough. Leave it alone!

From: ELKMAN
20-Jun-21
That definitely sucks for all the nonresidents...

20-Jun-21
If most of this hunting is happening on federal lands where is the justification for a state resident to be more entitled to tags to be used on federal lands?

20-Jun-21
^^^^That has previously been explained ad nauseam.

From: Stix
20-Jun-21
The animals are owed by the residents of the state.

From: Buffalo1
20-Jun-21
Where does the math of less and less hunters fit in the formula for both resident and non-resident ? What am I missing?

From: Jims
20-Jun-21
Here's a new update in regard to the Task Force. Sounds like some pretty shady stuff going on behind closed doors! Here's a link: https://www.307hunter.com/articles/wildlife-task-force-set-to-recommend-9010-for-sheep-goat-moose-grizzly-bison

Turns out more members of the Taskforce are in position to benefit financially from Wyoming's Wildlife than we originally thought. G&F Commissioner Brian Nesvik, for example, said his land qualified for landowner tags - though he's never applied for them. Pete Dube, current G&F Commission Chairman, appointed himself to the Taskforce and admitted he was a former outfitter.

As expected, the "Sportsmen" representatives on the Taskforce - Adam Teten, Josh Coursey, and Joe Schaffer, aren't strong and got steamrolled. On Wednesday, Day 1, they incredibly went along with the rest of the group to decide that any issue which receives the minimum 51% of the groups' approval would be forwarded to the Legislature as an "official" Taskforce recommendation. Given that at least 9 of the current 18-member Taskforce are either outfitters, landowners or both, why Teten, Coursey and Schaffer agreed to this is beyond me.

From: wytex
20-Jun-21
The math has been done and with a modest increase in resident fishing and hunting license costs the difference would be made up. By the way if a resident draws that same tag across the state that a NR used to draw, we also spend our money in that local economy. Might even get in a scouting trip or 2 over the summer, like we just did for the spouse's moose area. Stayed at local hotels and ate at local establishments, even spent a few bucks in a couple of local bars. I talked with a friend that lives in one of the small towns, summer is their money maker not hunting season. Tourists bring in way more dollars than hunters, but they welcome the added income. The local economy will see the same dollars spent be it residents or NR, the WG&F will see the difference in revenue due to the license cost difference.

From: Habitat
21-Jun-21
Maybe the states that that allow an unlimited number of NR whitetail hunters should start making these western state res buy points or pay way more for permit to even things out.It sucks that a res from NM will most likely draw a deer tag in Ks every year but that won't happen for a res from Ks in NM for sure.

From: Shrewski
21-Jun-21
Don’t worry, the task force will figure out a way to slash non resident tags, but also put another massive rate increase in for the NR as well. Win win for Wyoming residents. That’s what really matters comrades; make the few pay for the many.

From: Inshart
21-Jun-21
wytex, I respectfully have to question you on your post.

"""The math has been done and with a modest increase in resident fishing and hunting license costs the difference would be made up""". ""The local economy will see the same dollars spent be it residents or NR""

So what you are saying is the resident fishing and hunting license's are going to increase by what about -- 300 to 600%? Just who did the math and what kind of a calculator was used to figure that out. Can you post those facts and figures, it would make for an interesting read?

From: wytex
21-Jun-21
Here are some figures for what would happen with Big 5 going 90/10 and ways to make up the difference. Another Wyoming guy posted this on another forum. The numbers come from WG&F commission reports.

Based on current quotas:

Grizzly bear: $0 Sheep: $52,500 Goat: $20,100 Moose:$56,730 Bison: $61,708

Total: $191,038 (that number is also taking into account the Resident revenue gained from the 116 tags that Residents would gain.).

If Wyoming raised NR pronghorn does, based on 2020 quotas, from $34 to $50 it would generate $258,000.

We could raise Conservation licenses by $1 and generate $191,820

We could raise Resident annual fishing licenses by $3 and generate $222,540

Yes, residents spend money on hunts in local economies when we travel to hunt too.

From: 320 bull
21-Jun-21
Divide and concur

21-Jun-21

'Ike' (Phone)'s embedded Photo
'Ike' (Phone)'s embedded Photo
^^^ This! Their state let them do what they want, still people out there will pay crazy prices, good for them! I’ve got one more tag to draw there and will be done with the Ponzi scheme…Easier to chase birds anyway!

From: Jims
22-Jun-21

Jims's embedded Photo
Jims's embedded Photo
This graph shows the distribution of Nonres vs Res license and pref pt revenue. Wyo res provide $0.00 revenue for deer, elk, and antelope pref pt fees. Also, a lot of nonres will likely drop out if limited tags are cut in 1/2 and it takes twice as long to draw limited tags.

From: Jims
22-Jun-21

Jims's embedded Photo
Jims's embedded Photo
This table shows Wyo res vs nonres guided and nonres nonguided retail sales and total revenues/hunter. Obviously there are a lot fewer nonres than res hunters and with 90/10 these numbers would be cut in 1/2 for limited tags. It's a guessing game if 2nd choice and doe tags will remain the same. In lean years like this year there are hardly any 2nd choice tags for antelope and deer plus some units have totally eliminated doe tags due to severe winters, poor fawn recruitment, and drought. There could possibly be significant revenue losses if there aren't additional tags to sell nonres after the initial limited draw....pretty much a gamble if the WG&F revenue to make up for nonres limited tags being cut in 1/2 is selling additional 2nd choice, general, and doe tags!

22-Jun-21
Doesn’t matter…Their game, their rules! Way worse odds out there, OR for example! Wyoming just happens to be more popular, because it’s been pretty easy for quite a long time…

Don’t like it, move there, really piss ‘em off! :-)

From: Copperhead
23-Jun-21
As a non-resident of Wyoming that has been going there since 1977 and the group that I go with some members date as far back 1965, I and they have seen many changes over those years. In the area that we hunt, the quality and quantity of mature mule deer have declined although the elk have seemed to increased in quantity but not in quality of the bulls, while the antelope seem to thrive. Drawing an antelope tag in our area you have to have about 9 points currently, for elk it's only the ones who have the max points that get drawn while you only have to have 1 or more deer points.

So with the above in mind for the area we hunt, I'd say the G&F are not too concerned about the conservation of all species but more worried about the money that they can garner from them.

From: Mark
25-Jun-21
I believe that states have the right to manage there game! But I also believe that any state that has implemented a expensive point program set up for 20 plus years. Has a obligation to follow thru on what they were selling. My opinion is if they want to cut nonresident quotes from 20 % to 10 % they should have to do it over a 10 year period! With a 1 % drop every year. There has to be ownership for what they have been selling. This is what I believe to be a fair trade off. I also believe that they should square peoples point for the random tags. So someone with 20 points going in to the draw would get 20 x 20 = 400 plus one for that years application. So your name would go in 401 times for the random tags. Just my opinion.

That's the problem with bonus & preference points systems. It's hard to predict what's going to happen 20 years down the road! I believe Nevada has the best system.

The residents of all Western States better prepare for lots of negative impacts on there hunting. Within 10 years I can see all big game hunting on a draw for residents & nonresidents. The time that nonresidents can hunt big game every year out of state is about done!!!!!

From: Copperhead
25-Jun-21
Mark, I like your idea. I was thinking about it last night while I was mowing and my thought was this, If they're going to change the system then they owe those who have been buying points in the current system an opportunity to sell back those points at full purchased price or elect to continue in the current system.

From: Matte
25-Jun-21
Every state with a pp system who stills allows you to keep a full point if not drawn and still hunt the same state is set up for failure. Point creep is alway inevitable. If there was a .25-.50 reduction in points for still hunting in the state that would help tremendously mathematically speaking.

From: Jims
08-Jul-21
Wyo res biggest complaint is they can't draw high demand limited tags! Some res may not like the idea of a waiting period because they wouldn't be able to draw limited in units that have great draw odds every year and they would have to sit out several years once they draw liminted tags.

One solution to this would be to have a waiting period for "premium limited units" for deer, elk, and antelope that are the toughest tags in Wyo to draw. A baseline of 10 or 20% draw odds could be set and all units that are tougher than that to draw would have waiting periods.

Wyo res would then still have the opportunity to apply for tougher draw "premium units" with waiting periods or they could select regular units that wouldn't have waiting periods in place.

A waiting period for "premium units" would provide residents WAY better draw odds than the few tags/unit with 90/10. I can pretty much guarantee that "Premium high demand units" are going to become tougher and tougher to draw as more nonres move to Wyo! This may be a simple solution without going to a pref/bonus pt system or robbing nonres of 1/2 of their limited tag opportunity.

Plain and simple 90/10 only SLIGHTLY increases a Wyo res chance of drawing deer, elk, and antelope tags, cuts nonres opportunity in 1/2, and is a horrible idea for outfitters and WG&F revenue!

From: Lost Arra
08-Jul-21
Sorry Jims. I don't get your math.

Example100 LE elk tags: Currently 84 go to residents, 16 to non-residents. After 90-10 change: 90 go to residents, 10 to non-residents. 37.5% reduction to non-residents. Yes, it's a hit but not 1/2.

From: JL
08-Jul-21
^.......from the Guy Eastman article posted above. He discusses the first time an attempt was made to cut NR tags and now the newest attempt. IAW Eastman......both bills would/will cut NR tags by more than half.

"" The details of this bill are somewhat straightforward which is surprising for politics these days, but this is Wyoming after-all. In a nutshell, this bill aimed to cut the nonresident tag allocation for big game licenses to less than 10% from the historic norms of around 20%, depending on the species (moose-16%, sheep-25%, deer, elk and antelope-20%). The original bill introduced a few years ago was very simple and straightforward to that change. But the bill quickly ran into a brick wall regarding funding concerns given the fact that nonresident hunters contribute a massive haul of more than 77% of the total licensing revenue generated by the state of Wyoming. In addition, nonresident applicants in Wyoming contribute more than $12,000,000 worth of preference point fees each and every year to the Wyoming Game and Fish Department’s budget, while resident applicants only pony up an anemic $100,000. Plain and simple, slashing nonresident hunting licenses by half did not sit well with Wyoming legislators, Game and Fish Commissioners, Outfitters or our Governor. The original bill died quickly.

With the bloom of another legislative year brings another opportunity at a run for this bill as a more refined version including a funding realignment component that would, according to the bill, actually increase revenues to the state Game and Fish Department. This new retreaded bill, Senate Bill SF0103 again sought to cut the nonresident tag allocations by more than half, but also sought to nearly double the cost of what tags were left to nonresident hunters and applicants. In addition, the bill seeks to increase application fees slightly for both resident and nonresident hunters ($5 to $7 for resident, and $15 to $17 for nonresident) alike. The bill would also eliminate nonresident applicants from any hunt that garners less than 10 tags in the quota altogether and would create a $500,000 wildlife crop damage fund with the increased license fees, obviously a landowner crumb thrown in to increase potential legislator support. ""

From: wytex
08-Jul-21
Jims many resident do not want waiting periods, we want our allotment of licenses. My request was to quit rolling the resident allotment over into the NR draw, keep it available for all on the leftover draw, not just available for NR.

Are you pushing waiting periods in Colorado ? Seems your residents are fed up with OTC tags for NR and want better hunting too, what are you doing for NR in Colorado ?

From: Lost Arra
08-Jul-21
Any non-res tag numbers currently over 16% for elk is due to leftover tags or reduced price cow calf. Only full price LE tags are being discussed in the 90-10 split and my guess is the resident concern is actually Type 1 tags.

From: WapitiBob
08-Jul-21
90/10 for E/D/A is for full price, initial draw licenses. A NR can still draw 6 Antelope, 6 Deer, and 3 Elk licenses under 90/10, same qty as a resident.

08-Jul-21
“ Jims many resident do not want waiting periods, we want our allotment of licenses. My request was to quit rolling the resident allotment over into the NR draw, keep it available for all on the leftover draw, not just available for NR. Are you pushing waiting periods in Colorado ? Seems your residents are fed up with OTC tags for NR and want better hunting too, what are you doing for NR in Colorado ?”

Nope!

From: Shrewski
08-Jul-21
WyTex, is the state not rolling the leftover tags to NR just to maximize the money they take in? No argument here just making sure I am seeing it correctly.

From: WapitiBob
08-Jul-21
90/10 passed for the big 5, OIL for the big 5, currently discussing 50/50 pp/random and other variants

From: wytex
08-Jul-21
Yes, Shrewski, more money for the NR licenses. I would like to see a hard quota for NR in 1st draw , no rollover from the resident draw. At least give us a chance at a second tag, right along with the NRs in a leftover draw.

08-Jul-21
Thanks Bob, waiting for Jims to show up in 3, 2…

From: WYOelker
08-Jul-21
Anyone know where they settled on the random/pp split?

Did they go with 50/50 on all the big 5 and oil?

From: Zim
08-Jul-21
Wondering what Ponzi scheme will be the next to fall……….Nevada, Colorado or Wyoming(elk, deer, lope)? My money is riding on Nevada’s point squaring fiasco. Lol. Sorry to all those NR’s looted by this. I was not one of those left holding the bag.

From: Shrewski
08-Jul-21
Wytex, thanks; that’s not a bad idea and I’m sure WYFG would find a way to make up the funds. Most likely a NR price increase! Good for you residents. I’m just a little frustrated seeing my dream of hunting Bighorns in WY before I die go down the toilet with my 22 points. Tried to cash in my max deer points last year and almost died from stupid Covid during the last two weeks of October when I was supposed to be in Unit 90. Been saving my elk points and my son’s I’ve been buying since he was old enough to apply for one great hunt when he graduates college. And a pile of devalued antelope points. But I’ve enjoyed Wyoming the whole time on 2nd choices and cow tags until very recently. I’ll figure something out and who knows, maybe I will get lucky one day and will draw that sheep tag.

From: WapitiBob
09-Jul-21
Pushing waiting periods while advertising on multiple forums for a party app partner with points so you can jump the line doesn't add a lot of credibility to your cause.

09-Jul-21
Zim, my money is on Colorado…The OTC days will soon be gone!

From: Jims
09-Jul-21
Wyobob, can you think of a better way to improve draw odds for Wyo res that don't have a pref pt system in place for deer, elk, and antelope than waiting periods in premium units?

There are hardly any tags that will switch hands with 90/10 but draw odds will improve somewhat in premium units with waiting periods. I would welcome the same waiting period for premium nonres units but nonres already have pref pts for these species and it takes a bunch of pts to draw premium unit tags.

From: wytex
09-Jul-21
Residents do not want waiting periods jims, what don't you understand about that.

Shrewski I see you could have drawn a sheep license this year based on draw odds, did you apply ? 21 PP going in was not a great spot to be but a tag could have been had.

Yeah, jims wants waiting periods for everyone but himself and his PP sharing scheme.

From: Shrewski
09-Jul-21
Yep. I always apply. Typically in a unit the sheep are not in the wilderness.

From: Jims
10-Jul-21

Jims's embedded Photo
Jims's embedded Photo
I thought I would post an interesting table I just compiled that backs what I've been saying about waiting period vs 90/10 improving Wyo resident draw odds. I compared this for the toughest antelope units in Wyo to draw as residents. I thought it would be interesting to show waiting periods out to 5 years for these units. The 2 columns on the right show 2021 res draw odds and 2021 draw odds and draw odds with 90/10 nonres tags added on. Take a look at how waiting periods improve Wyo res draw odds each year while taking 1/2 of the tags from nonres hardly improves res draw odds at all.

From: JL
10-Jul-21
Jims....if you can.....you will need to show the projected resident draw odds under 90/10 going out to 5 years for folks to get a visual understanding of what might happen. Just showing 2021 odds only does not look impressive for the res's. It does raise a question about the cost (lost revenue from NR's) vs benefit (marginal increase in res draw odds) to the residents.

A broader question the res's will need to ponder......will res's be willing to pay higher license fees for only a marginal gain in draw odds?

From: WapitiBob
10-Jul-21
The wait period being discussed (per hunt area only) will shift those who drew in 58/60/61/etc into 57, negating any real benefit.

From: Jims
10-Jul-21
If a premium unit like 57 becomes tougher to draw that means other premium units will become easier to draw. If that happens it's up to the resident to decide if it's worth applying for a premium unit that has worse odds or possibly have better draw odds drawing an excellent unit like 60 or 61?

Also, if more res decide to apply for premium units it will make regular units even that much easier to draw. Most antelope units across Wyo have excellent draw odds now without 90/10 or waiting periods.

Obviously tag numbers change each year. Currently there are more and more hunters moving to Wyoming. That means draw odds will likely decrease for premium units. The number of hunters that move to Wyoming will likely overcome the relatively few tags that will be taken from nonres with 90/10. My guess is premium units will slowly but surely become tougher to draw with any system.

There are WAY more resident hunters that will be required to wait before applying for another premium waiting period tag than there are additional 90/10 tags that are taken from nonres. Res have significantly better draw odds with waiting periods.

There may be something I'm missing but it's just one more option that Wyo res may want to consider before imposing 90/10 for deer, elk, and antelope. There may also be ways of tweaking waiting periods, bonus pt systems, etc that are even better?

10-Jul-21
LMAO…

From: WapitiBob
10-Jul-21
I was given incorrect info, post edited.

From: Shrewski
10-Jul-21
Thanks Bob :-)

I’ll make the best of whatever system the “task force” comes up with. I’ve been very fortunate in the tags I’ve drawn and the hunts I’ve made and look at every single one as a blessing and really for the last 20 years as gravy and more than I ever dreamed. I’m not bitter, just was looking forward to knowing my points would put me in a position to PLAN my hunt. I’m pretty good at making the best of whatever situation I’m given so I’ll take a random tag, no problem…

From: JL
10-Jul-21
I just bought another deer and lope point. I think that puts me at 8 or 9 for each. I hope this isn't going to turn into a waste of years and PP money. :-(

From: elkocd
11-Jul-21
I hope this goes thru because it is in line with what it correct. I'm a WY NR who has hunted there a lot over the last 15 years, but I feel no entitlement that suggests I get to say what any state does. WY should do what is best for their residents and that should always be the 1st priority.

For any of you dip-chits suggesting they owe you something because you have been buying points for 15 years. The hard truth is you really missed the boat and should have drawn many tags in that time frame. They owe you nothing. You made the choice to not hunt.

With all that said I will be living in WY next spring so I guess I am now looking at it thru a resident lens. :) Everyone gets to choose where they want to live and be a resident!

From: Old Bow
12-Jul-21
With that last statement maybe Wyoming will have a 3 year waiting period for new residents applying for game tags , it’s not their fault you waited so long to become a resident.

From: Bob H in NH
12-Jul-21
WY has a 1 year wait to be a resident

Those that think you are owed something. Nope, you bought a WY pref point then CHOSE TO bank it and wait on a high point area, your decision. Same as if you don't hunt or buy for w years, poof your points are gone

From: Huntcell
12-Jul-21
Class act, “Rick Searcy from Oregon Bowsite Handle: "elkocd"” name calling “For any of you dip-chits”. Goes along way to reveal Wy bigger problem is not NR fees, its low information west coast voters moving in to the state, bringing it down to their level.

From: Inshart
12-Jul-21
Well "elkocd" I agree with Hunt, evidently you are new to this site as I don't recognize your name,,,,,, soooo way to make an impression!

When name calling, it's best if you first look in the mirror, read out loud what you've typed, then, if you are still comfortable, go back and type it.

It's not so much that we "choose" to purchase PP's, it's what the state of WY (and most others) have regulated to us.

Anyway, I hope your day gets better and good luck with that move to WY.

12-Jul-21
elkocd, perhaps you could take time out from name-calling long enough to clarify something. Since the 90/10 discussion is limited to the Big 5, please explain how someone "really missed the boat and should have drawn many tags in that time frame"?

I kinda like Old Bow's proposal. If you move here next spring, you won't be considered a resident for hunting purposes until 2023. Maybe we can get a task force going to increase the one year wait to 3 years, or maybe even 5, for all those newbies that feel they should be entitled to the same privileges as those already here. After all, like you say, they owe you nothing since you're not a resident.

From: wytex
12-Jul-21
I guess elkocd got a warm welcome here, lol. That kind of attitude will also get you a warm welcome in Wyoming. Better check your attitude at the door on the way in.

From: KHNC
12-Jul-21
"JohnMC Hell yes I would pay 5x or 10x to hunt in CO if we could get rid of most of the out of staters. The rampant number of out of staters hunting OTC in CO has ruined it. CO is the only state that let in a unlimited number of out of staters hunt elk. CPW or any other governmental agency will never have enough money does not matter if you cut their budget in half or double it."

Dang. It would be terrible to hear that you weren't able to hunt at some point. Im sure NR's everywhere would be sad for you, like you are them.

12-Jul-21
KHNC, it's not just JohnMC. You'd be hard pressed to find one resident of any western state that would support their state allowing an unlimited number of nonresident hunters, elk or otherwise.

From: Old Bow
12-Jul-21
As a non resident I bought points from Wyoming fish and game , they never ever said anything about losing my points unless I didn’t buy for two years in a row , I’ve received one elk tag and one deer tag while banking my points , so it’s not like I’m being a game hog and probably speaking for other non residents I’m hoping to draw a good tag even though I could not get that big trophy I’d like to get I can make the best out of my hunt .

12-Jul-21
“ "JohnMC Hell yes I would pay 5x or 10x to hunt in CO if we could get rid of most of the out of staters. The rampant number of out of staters hunting OTC in CO has ruined it. CO is the only state that let in a unlimited number of out of staters hunt elk. CPW or any other governmental agency will never have enough money does not matter if you cut their budget in half or double it." Dang. It would be terrible to hear that you weren't able to hunt at some point. Im sure NR's everywhere would be sad for you, like you are them.”

You’d think Jims would be all over this, being he’s from CO….To bad he’s so busy trying to tell Wyoming how to handle their business! Lol

From: Willieboat
12-Jul-21
Just sucks to be 22 years into trying to draw a moose tag and have the game change.

12-Jul-21
Depending on units, you could have already drawn...

From: elkocd
13-Jul-21
Wytex, not sure if you were being sarcastic or sincere. Maybe it does not matter. I've loved WY since the very day I first stepped foot there a long time ago. The people, the landscape, the attitude all very much are in line with my beliefs. I have had to raise kids here where I am always with the intent to migrate there once they were grown. In terms of how that relates to this topic. We all get to choose were we live, but it is the residents of the state that should get to choose policy. I would never attempt to try and and dictate policy in any state I don't live in. Buying preference points is not some sort of right to any future opportunity. Many states have and many should adapt and change in accordance with the times. If WY or any other state Non Residents don't get that I'm sorry. If my choice of words offended some, well... ! I've had sooo many amazing hunts in WY since they started the NR point system. No other state has even compared.

From: Jims
16-Jul-21
I thought I would pass this along from the last Task Force meeting. There's another one in Casper coming up on July 19. 90/10 for deer, elk, and antelope plus landowner and outfitter tags will likely be on the agenda.

The Big Horn Basin’s three members of the Wyoming Wildlife Task Force didn’t waste time with a lot of introductions on Tuesday, getting straight into listening to area hunters, outfitters, landowners and business owners. Before they closed, the group at the Park County Fairgrounds had waded through a myriad of major issues and headed straight for the weeds.

Task force members Rep. Jamie Flitner, R-Greybull, Park County Commissioner and outfitter Lee Livingston and former outfitter and Park County landowner Duaine Hagen scheduled the listening session to get feedback on possible proposals and develop new ideas. Gov. Mark Gordon assembled the team of 18 individuals with hopes of developing acceptable proposals.

There was trepidation the meeting could turn contentious, as hunting and wildlife issue passions run deep here. The broad subject matter — from license allocation and the weapons hunters can use to invasive species and the overall sustainability of wildlife and the Wyoming Game and Fish Department — has the potential to be overwhelming.

Yet, despite facing the possibility of costlier licenses and fees for residents and the typical divides between groups in attendance, there were few fireworks. The small but well-prepared crowd was eager to dive head-first into the conversation, only ending due to time restrictions. None of the issues are quick fixes and each comes with consequences to the species and harvests.

“I think the reason these issues have been so hard to solve is because they are so intricate and intertwined and complicated that, if you make one little tweak, there are likely to be unintended consequences,” Flitner said.

Resident hunters are frustrated with limited licenses, access, and overall opportunities to hunt. Only one proposal — to change the distribution of “the big five” hunting licenses (moose, sheep, grizzly, goat and bison) and offer 15% more to residents — received close to a consensus during Tuesday’s listening session. But even the seemingly most popular proposal comes with several sticking points.

Changing the distribution to a 90%/10% resident/non-resident split will cost the Game and Fish department about $200,000 in revenue. It also has the potential to put off tourism to the state at a time when increased tourism is seen as a possible fix for decreasing mineral extraction revenue, and it includes a species (the grizzly bear) that’s still listed for protections under the Endangered Species Act. Even if the change is made, it won’t substantially increase Wyomingites’ odds of drawing coveted big five tags, Flitner said. The proposal would also limit hunters to a once-in-a lifetime opportunity, regardless of harvest results.

A move to similarly change the split with elk, deer and antelope licenses to increase allocation to resident hunters could cost the Game and Fish Department millions of dollars. Only non-residents are required to buy preference points for ungulates and, in doing so, they subsidize resident hunting, Flitner said. Game and Fish is mostly funded by hunters and federal taxes from the sale of hunting and fishing equipment. None of the department’s current funding comes from the State of Wyoming’s general funds.

“At what point do we get so high that it is just a rich man sport,” Livingston said of allowing the market to determine the price. “If you run it like a business, do you drive folks away?”

If the price of resident licenses went up about $10, that could increase Game and Fish revenues by about $1 million, Flitner said. But the department brings in millions from the sale of non-resident preference points for the right to hunt in the future.

Hagen cautioned against turning away non-resident hunters.

“We better start looking at revenue in the state,” he said. “We’re going to lose a lot of revenue we take for granted.”

Tourism, including from non-resident hunters, is the second-largest source of revenue in Wyoming. Limiting non-resident hunting also affects family members, like those who have moved out of state but would still like to come home to hunt with family in Wyoming.

Offering fewer non-resident licenses could also drive away out-of-state hunters who are unwilling to wait several years to draw a tag, Livingston pointed out. There’s a fear that the preference points system is unsustainable, with hunters likely having to wait decades before accumulating enough preference points to obtain a license.

Those in attendance offered suggestions to alleviate frustrations by hunters unable to draw a tag, pulling some concepts from neighboring states.

Cody Regional Health Livingston said the task force is willing to listen to all ideas, but Wyoming is unique due to its low population and abundance of game.

“On the surface it seems like well, other states are doing it, we should do it. But I think we need to look at what works for Wyoming,” he said. “Other states have millions of people in them and a smaller wildlife resource than Wyoming does. So that needs to be addressed. If we’re going to move forward with something, I don’t think there’s a one-size fits all [remedy]. But I do understand the frustration with folks not being able to draw tags.”

Task force members and those in attendance both agreed on the most important issue: protecting habitat and wildlife resources.

“I think the number one issue is resource management,” Flitner said. “We want to make sure Wyoming continues to have the best wildlife of any state in the nation.”

Healthy habitat and wildlife management, as well as conservation of non-game species in Wyoming, is largely paid for through the sale of hunting licenses and fees.

“It isn’t about me. It can’t be just about me,” said Powell resident Tim Metzler. “It’s got to be about everybody and all of our opportunities, but we still have to leave something in the field. We always need to be concerned about what we leave in the field when we’re done.”

One proposal receiving positive reaction would make harvest surveys mandatory. Currently the state gives hunters the option of reporting success and failure in the field. Many in attendance supported a possible proposal requiring timely reporting of harvests or forfeiting future hunting rights.

Other issues discussed included: policies and practices that might support and incentivize private landowners as stewards of wildlife habitat; supporting outfitters and their guests to maximize the benefits to Wyoming’s economy and wildlife; the distribution of commissioners licenses; management schemes; and methods to improve and better serve Wyoming residents and wildlife. Also up for discussion is the long-term stability of the Game and Fish, poaching and its punishment, invasive species mitigation, trapping and hiking safety, wildlife traffic mortality, technology and fair chase hunting ethics, the Endangered Species Act and access for all hunters.

As the meeting progressed, the discussion leaped from specified topics to issues that probably won’t result in proposals from the task force. For instance, finding a way to tax non-consumptive users — like installing toll gates for tourists or finding a way to make the purchase of conservation stamps mandatory for hikers and wildlife watchers — made their way into the debate.

“We’re getting off into the weeds on those [topics],” Livingston warned.

But the task force members were there to listen and promised to schedule future listening sessions.

“This is a distance race, not a sprint,” Flitner said. “In the end, not everybody’s going to be happy … There’s gotta be give and take on both ends.”

Task force members pleaded for comments, though hundreds throughout the state have already interacted with the group through online and hand-written comments.

“Please submit those comments,” Flitner told the Powell audience, “because you’d be amazed that, during the session when these issues come up, we don’t hear from people like you.”

For more information, visit sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce.

From: Deertick
16-Jul-21
It's tough to assign a PRICE to something that has differing VALUE to different consumers.

For instance ... maybe a once-in-a-lifetime outfitted back-country elk trip really IS worth $$$ for someone looking for that memory or trophy that they enjoy right up until they shuffle off to the nursing home.

But then, as a resident, I have out-of-state friends and family who are just interested in the social aspect of enjoying time together, hunting "meat animals".

Looking at every hunt like it's going to be the next magazine cover article bids the price up too high, and effects the experience and expectations of those of us who hunt primarily to hold together the social bonds of family and friendship.

Sure wish I had an answer that would

-- help my state's revenue base -- hold together my friendships and family bonds through hunting with those non-residents I enjoy -- price the trophy experience correctly, so as not to cheapen truly OIL experiences -- value our wilderness appropriately

From: JL
16-Jul-21
"""Only non-residents are required to buy preference points for ungulates and, in doing so, they subsidize resident hunting, Flitner said."""

A random moment of spoken reality. So goes the NR's.....so goes WY's revenue.....and program solvency.

Maybe another approach is for the WY F&G (and any other state F&G Dept) to look at ways to reduce their costs. By doing so, they would decrease their dependency (addiction??) to the revenue. That would give them more wiggle room in their decision-making. They would need to determine their "nice to have" and "need to have" programs and make some decisions. It may take external, independent reviewers to go thru the F&G Dept structure and identify the "nice to have" or "pet" programs or regs that are part of the budget.

16-Jul-21
Flitner is a hottie…

Wyoming will figure it out….

From: Jims
23-Jul-21
If you are a DIY nonres hunter I would be sure to submit comments for the next Task Force Meeting in Sept. Here are some of the questions the Task Force is asking for comments for:

The Taskforce will continue to discuss ways to improve the preference points system. What would you like the members to know?

The Taskforce will be discussing how to increase resident hunter opportunities for elk, deer and antelope. What would you like the members to know?

The Taskforce will be discussing landowner matters. What would you like the members to know?

Here's a few key notes you may want to consider: 1) Draw odds for Wyo res will only slightly improve if 1/2 the limited D/E/A tags are taken from nonres with 90/10. If Wyo res truly want to improve their odds for drawing high demand tags there are significantly better draw odds with only 1 to 3 year waiting periods after a hunter draws without all the headaches of taking 1/2 of the available limited tags from nonres.

2) I don't think Wyo wants to turn into New Mexico where a chunk of limited tags are available to landowners plus another set of limited tags were stripped from nonres and are now available only as outfitter tags. I think it's great that there are limited tags available in a draw for everyone and each hunter can decide if they want to hire a guide or hunt on their own.

3) Private Land Only tags are actually a pretty good deal. Here in Colo these tags are available to everyone in the draw that are only good to hunt private land. These tags usually have excellent draw odds so landowners and outfitters have better draw odds for family members and clients. Hunters that draw these tags also have the option to get permission and DIY hunt. It's also possible for the CPW to manage tags/big game on private land that ultimately places less hunting pressure on public land.

Here's the link to submit your comments: https://sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce/home/public-input

From: BigEight
23-Jul-21
I know money is an issue for most and I feel greasy acting like I don't mind a price increase as a non-resident who hunts Colorado when in fact you are taking good people out of the woods by phasing them out due to income. I would still hunt out West but some people couldn't afford a double or triple increase in tag cost. On the other hand, this is not an unlimited resource so I would not mind waiting longer for tags and more limitation on OTC tags. Then all non-residents are playing on the same field. Of course this isn't just about hunting. More people means more meals, gas, hotels, groceries etc for the local hunting communities. There are many things to consider here even though I wish we could decide all things in life by looking through a hunter's lens. (:

From: Rocky D
23-Jul-21
BigEight, Nice to see an altruistic post considering the impact to others less fortunate!

From: Rocky D
23-Jul-21
BigEight, Nice to see an altruistic post considering the impact to others less fortunate!

From: JL
23-Jul-21
^....that

"........ I don't mind a price increase as a non-resident who hunts Colorado when in fact you are taking good people out of the woods by phasing them out due to income."

^.....well stated! If you phase out the good people, who's left? Then you ask who wins and loses. Furthermore, one collateral effect, if you have less NR's going to a particular state, who is going to help the res's when anti-hunting attacks start up? Many of those ex-NR's hunters no longer have skin in that state. Just a thought to ponder....

From: Jims
23-Jul-21
One of the biggest impacts I see down the road is what happens to the hunting heritage of our fathers in the coming years. As I get up there in years I start thinking about past memories and the younger generation in the years to come. I reflect back on so many incredible memories I've had hunting Wyo and other Western States in my lifetime. The cost to apply and number of points required to draw tags continues to rise. It's come to the point I've pulling the plug on applying my son for many of these nonres tags. Plain and simple I just can't afford it. How many other fathers are doing the same thing?

That brings me to the point of thinking about all of those young hunters that live in the Midwest or East that may never have the opportunity to hunt Western US big game because they either can't afford it or they have no chance of drawing high demand tags. The only choice they have is to move to a Western State to experience this. I could really care less if I draw another tag as a nonres but am very concerned for the younger generation as hunting the west seems to becoming a thing of the past for those that enjoy hunting on their own. Fewer nonres tags and higher costs associated with applying is slowly but surely loosing the younger generation hunters.

23-Jul-21
Post that on the WY thread Jims, I want to see you laughed out of there like all the other times...Almost every state out there has some type of youth program/tag allocation…How are they taking away youth opportunities…?

I don't see you going after other states, why so hard on WY...Could it be that it might possibly curb your point sharing game?!? Things that make you go Hmmm!

From: jm77
24-Jul-21
Jims, if you're so concerned about young hunters, why are you "pulling the plug" on your son if you can afford it for yourself?

From: Jims
24-Jul-21
Ike, the Western US hunting heritage is slowly but surely fading away for the average DIY nonresident hunter. This obviously starts and ends with youth. Nonres youth are the real losers with 90/10. As I mentioned in my earlier post, youth that live in the Midwest and East may never have the opportunity to hunt big game species like sheep, moose, mule deer, elk, and antelope that aren't available in their states like their fathers likely had growing up. 90/10 will cut nonres tag allotments in 1/2 and it will take twice as long to draw. It also costs nonres $300 to apply for sheep and moose pts as well as over $100 for D/E/A pts. That's $400/year or $4,000 over a 10 year period. With draw odds being cut in 1/2 with 90/10 I'm sure a lot of nonres dads are going to drop their kids out of the Wyo draws. Other dads will look at the draw odds and cost and say, "no way can I afford to apply my son for Wyo nonres tags and pts so we aren't going to apply there.

Ike, just remember that 77% of the license and pref pt revenue that goes directly to the WG&F come from nonres. Pref pt revenues from nonres continues to rise each year but with 90/10 that will likely drop. Wyo res don't pay pref pt fees for e/d/a so they provide $0.00.

So Ike, if you were a father of 2 sons from Iowa. Would you be willing to fork out $1,200/year for pref pts for you and your son's to apply for sheep, moose, d, e, and a? How about $300/year for the 3 of you to apply for just d/e/a? The price of pref pts may rise so there is the chance this $ will increase in the years to come.

From: Jims
24-Jul-21
JM, thanks for your concern. I pulled the plug on buying pref pts for both my son and I for sheep and moose in Wyo. I can't afford $600/year for both of us with horrible draw odds. That's $6,000 over 10 years that I won't be contributing to the WG&F budget. His dream of hunting moose or sheep in Wyo is dead! I'm sure this same thing is true with fathers and sons all across the US.

The funny thing is it would be $28/year for a father/son to apply for moose and sheep pts as Wyo res.....only $280 vs $6,000 over a 10 year period for res vs nonres pref pt fees. No wonder the Hunting Heritage across the Western US is changing.

From: jm77
24-Jul-21
Jims, I think the issue here is you seem to think NR should have a say in states where they don't live. I apply in other states and have had their draw systems change on me, but the difference between you and me is I know that's their resource and I just have to live with it. Your attempts to change this on the hunting forums is your right, but by now most aren't even reading your messages. Wyoming will be just fine with revenue no matter how the allocations change and the constant harping about the money is also falling on deaf ears. Take what happens in stride and move on, the task force has already sent 90/10 for the big five to the legislature and I doubt they will recommend the same for DEA. I guess we will find out.

From: Jims
24-Jul-21
JM, I understand completely what you are saying. I can tell you put a lot of time and thought into your post and appreciate your comments. There are no nonres on the Task Force so this reflects what you are saying.

I've broadcasted 90/10 across many websites to inform nonres on what's going on before it is to late. I believe it is wise for nonres to voice their comments to the Task Force because this is the only way to submit their concerns.

Nonres have so much to loose with 90/10.,,,1/2 of the limited tags that currently are available. Nonres have invested up to 25 years to the Wyo sheep and moose draw system and upwards of 15 years to D/E/A pref pt system. Wyo residents have provided $0.00 revenue support for D/E/A over these years. Nonres have a lot invested into these pref pt systems both financially and years applying for tags.

What I really hope is brought to everyone's attention is the loss of nonres opportunity for those that enjoy hunting OYO, DIY in the Western US. That opportunity is slowly but surely disappearing across the West as tags become tighter and more expensive just to apply. Our youth in the future are the real losers in this battle. Youth that are fortunate to grow up in great states like Wyo will always have that opportunity but youth across the East and Midwest may never have the opportunity to hunt species like elk that aren't available in their own states.

I thought to myself, I can sit back and allow the Task Force and Wyo res to pass 90/10 or I can bring this to nonres hunter's attention. I don't see this as telling Wyo how they should manage tags and hunters. I see this as an opportunity to offer suggestions that might benefit both Wyo res and nonres. Many of these ideas may not have even been considered if I didn't submit comments.

The bottom line is Wyo res want the better opportunity (better draw odds) to draw high demand limited tags. I've tried to show that 90/10 does very little to do this and there are other options that will do this way more effectively without significant impacts to nonres and revenue.

From: WapitiBob
24-Jul-21
"So Ike, if you were a father of 2 sons from Iowa. Would you be willing to fork out $1,200/year for pref pts for you and your son's to apply for sheep, moose, d, e, and a? How about $300/year for the 3 of you to apply for just d/e/a? The price of pref pts may rise so there is the chance this $ will increase in the years to come."

Any nr with 10 or fewer points for Sheep/Moose shouldn't be buying points, and never should have started, regardless of the res/nr splits. Their only tag will come from the random side. I'll quit hunting before I stop buying E/D/A points for my family, they're only $124.

From: 'Ike'
24-Jul-21
All about choices!

24-Jul-21
Do we need more hunter recruitment to further compete for the available tags and space?

From: WapitiBob
24-Jul-21
absolutely

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