Contributors to this thread:
Opinion vs Experience
I had an interesting experience the other day. In preparing for my co. elk hunt i joined a facebook page devoted to archery elk. I posted a simple picture of my bow hanging in a treestand in a hunting situation. The first responce i recieved welcomed me to the group and proceeded to inform me that my rest was not adequate and if it was him he would go to a more reliable setup. Caused me a little head shaking !
Everyone has an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.lol
I didnt tell him that my simple setups have taken probably over a 100 whitetails . It was interesting his first responce was critical. Ill be 60 this fall and i have always taken experience over opinion, this young man could of asked me a few questions and i would have shared those experiences with him. As it was ,for him it was more important to share with me his opinion.
Maybe technology has surpassed passion and wisdom , and caused a certain generation to disrespect experience.
Armchair experts are everywhere. Had one kid tell me I couldn’t kill anything with a 3 blade Muzzy, needed to be shooting a Rage. This was right after I returned from RSA with with 6 animals taken with Muzzy. 45 years with a bow trumps his 5.
Can't kill anything with a recurve either. I know first hand. ;)
Actions speak louder than words…. kill with that struggle stick and disregard the keyboard cowboys.
This is another one of those sports where people get all caught up in equipment; they buy in to the notion that they need the very best of everything - whether it’s an intermediate-level skier showing up on top-end Expert skis (which they have neither the strength nor skills to manage) or a compound shooter who thinks he needs an $1800 bow and hundreds of dollars into accessories and $20/shaft arrows, or a born-again stickbow shooter buying a bunch of top-end customs, every last one of which is about #10 more than he can handle.
They think they need it to succeed and they figure everyone else does too, and because they’re proud of their purchases, they can’t pass up an opportunity to bring up how nice their stuff is, because, you know….
I don’t know if they’re just so caught up in themselves that they have no clue how UNsubtle a put-down it is to point out the “obvious” inadequacies of someone else’s “inferior” equipment… but I do know that they often don’t take kindly to people suggesting that (common example around here) it’s not at all necessary to drop $35 or $50 or $100 on A broadhead when there are entirely serviceable alternatives out there at the same prices for a half dozen.
Just smacks of “I have more money than you; my equipment is better than yours; and that’s proof that I’m better than you.”
And especially living where I do, I get real tired of that crap.
Long and short: not about you.
Does he know that a ton of animals were killed by hunters using a recurve with a cheap $5 rubber rest lol.
We live in a world of instant success, everybody wins, there are no losers. That is where many opinions originate. Simply sort through the opinions and find what works for you.
It seems im not alone, haha. I wonder how much of the real hunting experience is robbed by these attitudes ?
You'll find a lot of that here as well. Nowhere on the internet is immune.
I've been told on Leatherwall that our 53-57 lb longbows and recurves shooting 450 grain arrows and multiblade heads isn't an adequate setup to kill elk. Except my partner and I have killed 68. The only "experts" I respect are the ones I know who have accomplished great things. The others are wannabe blowhards.
Jaquomo, Thats funny !!!! I also have shot a lot of game with my 57 lb fedora recurve.
I usually ignore equipment "opinions" on forums. Everyone has their favorites and to some, anything else simply won't work.
Forums/internet I do look for tactics, etc, but equipment? Nope after 20+ years playing with, setting up and hunting with bows, I'm fine there.
Now how to call elk, that's something I will listen to, but still with a filter
You got to move a lot of gravel to get a little gold.
1 year repeated 20 times is an opinion. 20 years repeated once is experience.
For true advice on this subject, one only needs to turn to the democratic party. THEY will tell you what is fact based on experience, and what is simply dis-information! Nobody else is as qualified as they, when it comes to your personal experience.
An “expert” is somebody 50 miles away from home. With some, it’s closer to 5…
Someone always has to bring politics into it. Thanks 70lb.
You beat me to it wytex. Gotta love what Bowsite’s turned into. Regardless of the subject, somebody always feels the need to turn every single thread into a political shit show.
You're welcome wytex! Perhaps you should cancel me!
Or perhaps you can simply ignore my post!?!
Not a cancel or an ignore type of person. I call it like I see it. Make a public post get public response. Don't like the response, don't make the post. You could always ignore my response too.
Experience without picture is only fantasy :)
My favorite pastime is going to my local archery range and dolling out unsolicited advice. You know, have a minute or two of friendly chit chat, just long enough to get some details out of them...then BAM!! I turn those details around and one up them, unequivocally asserting my dominance. My favorite goto's are assuring them I've shot a bigger whitetail then they have, or if they have bagged big whitetails then if they haven't been out west I tell them they ain't seen nothin' till they elk hunt, and if they have elk hunted out west, I tell them they ain't seen nothin' till they goto Alaska, then Africa, then New Zealand, etc. I can do the same with arrow tuning, bow brand manufactures, truck manufacturers, female preference, etc. If you guys want I'll make a flow chart of "how to maximize domination" and you guys can try to use it, though you probably couldn't keep up with me...works well at rifle ranges and bowling alleys too. You old timers have probably ran into some of my work over the years.
Internet:see one,do one,teach one.
Zim, that's pretty impressive that you can dominate at the range or bowling alley... but you ain't seen nothin until you try to one-up everyone at the starting line of an ultramarathon!
I know a guy just like Zim...
Maybe you should run for office in Illinois, Zim!
Funny thing, though….
I always shoot off the shelf, because I like the simplicity of it and the fact that there is nothing there to go wrong.
But the tightest group I’ve ever shot in my entire life what were the two dollar Bear weatherest. Six shots at 30 yards, and everyone of them cut the pencil thin vertical line running down the middle of the bull. It was a vertical string sorted high to low by the weight of each arrow.
Damnedest thing I ever saw! I probably ought to shoot that bow more often… except that I really don’t LIKE that funny little rubber Doohickey sticking off my bow.
So that’s my rainy day set up, with plastic vanes…. Quick! Somebody call the Trad Police!
Back when I used to shoot a lot of 'bar room' eight ball, I loved throwing my opponent a bit of 'advice' to get them thinking with the wrong side of their brain. "Do you always grip the cue stick so tight ? I keep my grip loose."
Point being, is the person *really* trying to be 'helpful'?
I call them keyboard commandos. They’re on every forum. Just ignore them.
I think Zim’s approach is a win/win.
Elvis Presley was told by the Nashiville establishment early in his career to go back to truck driving..so there ya go. An opinion..lol
I have two opinions. I do not like scoped and cocked crossbows for all during archery seasons, and I do not care for hunters who actually voted against hunting for future generations. No experience . Just common sense opinions of mine which I guess then makes them worthless.
Zim, I've definitely ran into some of your work over the years!
I think there always has and surely always will be folks that offer up their unsolicited opinion on just about any topic you can think of. I also believe the internet has increased or magnified this behavior. I take everything with a grain of salt on the internet and usually just ignore folks I think are full of it.
In person, my wife tells me I've gotten much more polite at telling people to f**k off over the years.
Kinda had a similar situation when I recently got a new bow…. 3 kids a house, a family all at 28. When it came time to buy a new one I couldn’t justify spending 2000 on a new set up, so my uncle set me up with a blackout epic made by bear for cabelas. Tons of people had “opinions” and voiced them at the range people I knew, hell even my father and brother. Well this “cheaper” family option shoots tighter groups than any of my “friends” and my father and brother. And in 3 years it’s already killed more animals than 5-6 of them combined.
I’ll second whoever said “you know what the say about opinions….”
But then again…
It’s like the old Cowpoke said.
There are those who learn by studying books; there are those who learn by observing the mistakes of others…. and then there are those who just have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Not all experience is worth having. And my position on the subject is based on experience.
It is my opinion that the pop up adds need to go away. :)
I don't want a refund, I just want them to go away. :)
Zim reminds me of the old saying..."They guy who talks the most usually has the least to say." I bet he hunts alone most of the time.
I'm kidding, of course...kinda. ;-)
Social media is not great to communicate. It can be done (like here, mostly) but broader/more general forums like FB, Twitter etc... tough sledding.
That said, I find most opinions are formed by experience's. How informed the experiences are starts to shift things. Have a lot of bad experiences around a given approach/idea etc and your opinion will reflect that - and often be wrong.
"I had an interesting experience the other day. In preparing for my co. elk hunt i joined a facebook page devoted to archery elk. I posted a simple picture of my bow hanging in a treestand in a hunting situation. The first responce i recieved welcomed me to the group and proceeded to inform me that my rest was not adequate and if it was him he would go to a more reliable setup. Caused me a little head shaking !"
While it all comes down to context, and this "other guy" may be a complete Richard... but I'd offer the other side of the coin since everyone seems to want to jump on the "other guy". In this instance, was it even considered that your setup wasn't the most reliable? Or did you just shake your head and get defensive? Since you said you joined a site of devoted elk hunters, did you consider that it is possible that the guy posting (on the same site as you with all your experience) was also capable and may be on to something? At the same time, what were you expecting when you joined the site? Were you open to new ideas that may help you get better? Or did you just expect everyone to agree with each element of your approach (and show up on the site to tell of the many elk you've killed and why what you're doing is best)?
This is hardly meant as an attack on you, but an attempt to make a point that we all can learn from on this site and in life. Countless others have skills, knowledge, or ideas that we don't, and that we can - and should - learn from. Criticism, if it even is criticism is this case, is often meant to be constructive, and even top pro's train regularly with people telling them what they can improve on. In that same vein, just because something has worked in the past, doesn't mean it is the best going forward. Wheels used to be made of stone and wood, and they were used to put on a lot of miles, but none of us would go that route today. Lastly, from your own post, the "other guy" just said HE would switch it up if HE were you, and was only offering up his opinion that there are more reliable options, and not that your setup wouldn't work. If the guy wasn't worth your time, why are you letting this guy's opinion bother you so much that you're coming to another forum to air it out?
A little thick skin goes a long way when it comes to social media and these websites in my experience.
I saw a funny one on a forum yesterday, the thread was about 80# limbs.
A guy comments, I shoot 80# because I can… Then in his sig it says he longs for the days when he could shoot 80#
"Criticism, if it even is criticism is this case, is often meant to be constructive, and even top pro's train regularly with people telling them what they can improve on."
Unsolicited advice is usually never welcome as most people can't deliver it without sounding condescending. Imposing a personal preference is hardly advice.
Zim's response is hilarious! Nice!
Hey northwoods kiss my ass!
But recurve maybe the guy just doesn’t take criticism well.
In my professional life I've learned that a lot of successful experience doesn't always mean you can't learn something new, and sometimes the new guys do have a point of view or knowledge that can help an expert be even better. One of my biggest pet peeves has become "because we've always done it this way" when asking someone about a process.
No matter how successful I ever get to be with any interest of mine, I hope I can keep an open mind when offered advice.
“ and even top pro's train regularly with people telling them what they can improve on. ”
If I were a top pro, I sure as hell wouldn’t be paying anybody good money to tell me to keep doing what I already knew. Unless he caught me doing it when I didn’t realize that it was happening, I suppose…
But then again, advice is generally much more welcome when you’re paying somebody for the privilege of receiving it.
Offhand I might guess that Northwoods struck a nerve with that last post and Recurve here may have a few sensitive spots which he might prefer that we steer clear of.
But ‘tis true that a lot of modern-style archers cannot imagine that a 500 grain arrow trundling along at some modest velocity will blow right through both sides of a deer, let alone a big , bull Elk. And whi csn blame tgem when they have had penetration using a much more “powerful” set-up with a tuning issue.
I guess that’s one thing about experience; it doesn’t matter one whit how many times you’ve seen something happen if you don’t understand what you’re looking at. And your chances are even worse if you’re operating under the influence of any misconceptions, misperceptions, or outright lies that you’ve swallowed.
Thats where someone with a decent education and no baggage can see right through all the BS that an “experienced” hand is tangled up with.
That’s why I’m convinced that I don’t know everything and I suspect that I may well be mistaken about a good chunk of what I do think that I know. It’s pretty humbling most days, but it rarely gets in the way of learning something new…
GF, I'm convinced that you type a lot...I mean a lot
I think maybe he’s hoping at some point Pat starts paying him per word. That’s no longer an opinion, that’s experience talking.
But SitO, is that opinion or experience?.....haha
"Zim's response is hilarious! Nice!"
That's why I said I know someone like him. Described that guy perfectly.
The smartest man I ever knew never gave advice. If I was stupid enough to ask for advice he responded by asking questions. His questions always told me that he understood the problem and helped me reason through the problem. He never attempted to look like a know it all . Maybe that is why I thought he was so smart. Unwanted advice is a waste or breath. Requested advice should be considered on its merit.
I like Zim's response :) I have an acquaintance like that that I've known all my life. He recently came into my office and looked up at my mounted first bow-buck (about 120"), and says "Where did you kill that little buck?" . . . . . Granted it's not a big buck. But I know for a FACT that he's never killed one that big :) :)
Everybody is free to have their own opinion..but if you want to be right you have to agree with me..lol My wife dont think thats funny when I say that
Thanks everyone. Seems there’s lots of “those guys” out there, huh?! Someone should write a book about some of these nut jobs we run into at the local archery ranges.
Heavy and slow will kill just as fast as high velocity. Even in guns, most folks do not realize a .308 or similar round, loaded subsonic at 1000 fps will zip through both sides of a big game animal, while a supersonic round going 3000 fps will often terminate inside the animal and not exit.
Well…what kind of rest was it??
I knew I wasn’t the only one lol
“ while a supersonic round going 3000 fps will often terminate inside the animal and not exit.“
Thornton, I am sorry any energy expended outside of the animal is wasted energy. In addition to this is bullets kill by both hemorrhaging and shock to the central nervous system. Bullets make for a poor comparison to an arrow.
Probably best if recurve43 posts the same pic here. Then we can tell him if he needs to change rests.
“ I'm convinced that you type a lot...I mean a lot”
Mostly voice to text ;)
Some folks are interested in what I have to say and others not so much. The former are welcome to read and the latter are welcome to scroll. I’m not offended either way.
Rocky- Maybe I failed to make the obvious statement of accuracy is everything whether you shoot a heavy slow arrow or heavy slow bullet. If you poke the heart or lungs, both can kill equally fast. Energy is not wasted if you already poked a hole in a vascular organ before the bullet or arrow exited. I've killed deer with both subs and recurves. All died quickly.
Thornton, My reading comprehension must lagging in my old age. I read it twice and still didn’t realize that you were discussing accuracy.
Oh well, it’s not important.
Rocky D, I guess that I am like you in my old age. I never read accuracy in Thornton’s post either. I agreed with it, but thought it was about whether a slow bullet or arrow could still kill. Sucks to get old, but then, I figured any projectile wiping out a major bleed vessel is fatal. A fast projectile, like a bullet imparts hydrostatic shock as well as cutting blood vessels. I have gone to several suicides as a first responder, and a bullet doesn’t just sail through. It imparts brutal pressure and the head explodes.
I failed to state "accuracy" or "shot placement" but I figured it is always implied.
Too many still think they can build themselves up by trying to tear others down.
So it easily goes on any social media site.
Too many still think they can build themselves up by trying to tear others down.
So it easily goes on any social media site.