Ivermectin
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
ND String Puller 10-Sep-21
WYOelker 10-Sep-21
LINK 10-Sep-21
Shuteye 10-Sep-21
greg simon 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
Ambush 10-Sep-21
Will 10-Sep-21
HDE 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
LINK 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
Habitat 10-Sep-21
bigswivle 10-Sep-21
drycreek 10-Sep-21
jjs 10-Sep-21
Franklin 10-Sep-21
RK 10-Sep-21
Grey Ghost 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
Franklin 10-Sep-21
spike78 10-Sep-21
t-roy 10-Sep-21
bigswivle 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
[email protected] 10-Sep-21
RK 10-Sep-21
t-roy 10-Sep-21
TGbow 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
[email protected] 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
RK 10-Sep-21
DanaC 10-Sep-21
[email protected] 10-Sep-21
[email protected] 10-Sep-21
Grey Ghost 11-Sep-21
LINK 11-Sep-21
Al Dente Laptop 11-Sep-21
Grey Ghost 11-Sep-21
Nemophilist 11-Sep-21
Franklin 11-Sep-21
Al Dente Laptop 11-Sep-21
bigeasygator 11-Sep-21
Grey Ghost 11-Sep-21
Kilroy66 11-Sep-21
bigeasygator 11-Sep-21
Franklin 11-Sep-21
bigeasygator 11-Sep-21
Al Dente Laptop 11-Sep-21
bigeasygator 11-Sep-21
Grey Ghost 11-Sep-21
Franklin 11-Sep-21
bigeasygator 11-Sep-21
Grey Ghost 11-Sep-21
ND String Puller 11-Sep-21
Stix 12-Sep-21
DanaC 12-Sep-21
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spike78 12-Sep-21
DanaC 12-Sep-21
Nemophilist 12-Sep-21
spike78 12-Sep-21
Grunter 12-Sep-21
DanaC 12-Sep-21
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spike78 13-Sep-21
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[email protected] 13-Sep-21
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Tracker 13-Sep-21
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KSflatlander 14-Sep-21
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bigeasygator 16-Sep-21
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Huntiam 16-Sep-21
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chillkill 16-Sep-21
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CW 21-Sep-21
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creed 02-Oct-21
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ND String Puller 02-Oct-21
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spike78 08-Oct-21
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BowenAero 08-Oct-21
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RK 09-Oct-21
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Nemophilist 09-Oct-21
DanaC 09-Oct-21
10-Sep-21

ND String Puller's Link
Here’s an article about Ivermectin I found interesting. A lot more to it than horse wormer. Most interesting is the anti-cancer properties. Stay Safe !

From: WYOelker
10-Sep-21
My neighbor and I were discussing this last night. He couldn’t wrap his head around the idea that a medicine can have multiple uses. That the approved use may not be its only use…

I pointed out how in Bet med we have all sorts of liberty for off label use. But regulations prevent such issues on humans.

One thing is for certain, we still do not know hardly anything about the damn mess. The data is being manipulated all the time, and corruption will likely prevent us from ever really knowing…

From: LINK
10-Sep-21
There’s no money in ivermectin….. move along.

From: Shuteye
10-Sep-21
People being brought out of Afghanistan were given Ivermectin.

From: greg simon
10-Sep-21
Makes perfect sense to treat people in Afghanistan with dewormer.

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo

From: Ambush
10-Sep-21
Hope dana doesn't use penicillin then. Or any of the hundreds of treatments used on both animals and people.

Gaslighting is the best way to blow your cover and prove you don't actually have an argument of your own.

From: Will
10-Sep-21
If you think Ivermectin works well to stop COVID, you should see this insanely amazing thing with fewer side effects that works infinitely better. But I know vaccines are scary so I wont talk about it.

From: HDE
10-Sep-21
"One thing is for certain, we still do not know hardly anything about the damn mess. The data is being manipulated all the time..."

That's because it's easy to figure out if you completed a basic high school education. Sorry doc's, you're not the only ones that can process and understand the data...

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21
Will, apparently a lot of people would rather 'treat' than 'prevent'.

From: LINK
10-Sep-21
I didn’t know they had a preventative yet. All I’ve heard about is a shot the puts money in Fauci’s coffer and still allows you to get and transmit the disease. Who’s the sheep Dana. Ohh and that’s not a question. ;)

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21
"I didn’t know they had a preventative yet. "

Do you even grasp the *concept* of 'vaccination' ? Or is the static too loud?

From: Habitat
10-Sep-21
Take it,may be a form of natural herd thinning for the not so bright.Or it may just make them start mooing

From: bigswivle
10-Sep-21
There’s no money in ivermectin….. move along.

This

From: drycreek
10-Sep-21
DanaC, tell that to the folks that have been vaxxed and have gotten covid. Surely you aren’t that dumb.

From: jjs
10-Sep-21
Ivermectin works like HQZ in reducing the the symptoms of Covid, it doesn't prevent it but must be used in the early stages of the virus. Big Pharma doesn't make their big dollars off this. Has far as using vet Rx, I have been using some sinceI was a little kid, my mother worked for a vet and the dr would give her some Rx to help with some infections and sprains, saved a few dollars vs from basically from buying the same Rx for humans. The only side effects is when walking by a fire hydrant I have to raise my leg.

From: Franklin
10-Sep-21
Ivermectin is a "preventative".....there is a prophylactic regiment of taking Ivermectin either monthly or bi-weekly. Been using it along with Vitamin D, C and Zinc for the past 8 months.

I don`t wear masks, don`t practice the mythical/ridiculous 6' social distance rule....so far so good.

This so called shot is NOT a vaccine.....mRNA using a synthetic to initiate an immune response does not meet the definition of a "vaccine". Why else would the CDC change the definition of "vaccine" last week. Don`t even get me started on which "not a vaccine" was actually approved by the FDA.

What happened to the left`s mantra....."my body my choice"?

From: RK
10-Sep-21
Drycreek. Surely Danac is that dumb, but he sure does like to hear himself talk. Lmao!

From: Grey Ghost
10-Sep-21
"What happened to the left`s mantra....."my body my choice"?

Nothing. It's just become a popular mantra for the right now. Irony is beautiful.

Matt

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21
The number of so-called 'breakthrough' cases is a tiny fraction of cases among the non-vaxxed. Likewise, Covid deaths. But hey, it ain't *perfect* so it doesn't work at all, right?

You call people 'sheep' but who are the lemmings following the anti-vax preachers off a cliff? Happy landings!

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21
"

“Approximately 97% of people with severe disease from the delta variant are unvaccinated,” she says. “That gives you an idea of how effective these vaccines are. I think that number is a point that cannot be overemphasized.” "

https://uihc.org/news/vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-how-sick-can-you-get

From: Franklin
10-Sep-21
Is that link from the same people that claimed that Covid came from bat soup?

I`m just glad you admit it`s not a vaccine. When was the last time you heard of someone having a mild case of Polio or Smallpox....or your dog having a mild case of rabies?

You got the jab now you have a monkey on your back for life....well done.

From: spike78
10-Sep-21
Dana, that BS is only true IF the government is truthful. Yeah because the government is truthful lol. We call other countries sadistic but yet we’ve invaded and killed more people then any other country. I’m sure the government cares about you as they send thousands of soldiers to their deaths throughout the years. All they care about is that you keep working and paying taxes. You do realize that the government came out with the brilliant idea of SS because they think your too stupid to handle your own finances but yet SS will run out in the few coming years? Yeah I have complete faith in our government. Just listen to Pelosi for one minute and it makes you go hmm.

From: t-roy
10-Sep-21

t-roy's embedded Photo
t-roy's embedded Photo
I’m a little nervous about how big the needle is gonna be for third shot!…..At least you will get a discount.

From: bigswivle
10-Sep-21
Nothing. It's just become a popular mantra for the right now. Irony is beautiful.

Gosh dang it Matt, I’ve had to many bud lights to argue about irony tonight

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21
Spike, I do NOT worry about Social Sec. because the government will simply print the money to cover it. Yeah, inflation, I get it.

Here's the thing - anyone who does not get vaxxed, and dies from covid, well, the Democrats figure that's one less vote for the Republicans. (I would love to see how covid deaths break down per party affiliation...) And *they* are sitting there looking all serious while they laugh up their sleeves.

10-Sep-21

Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Glunt@work's embedded Photo
No doubt the right is probably less into the vax but some minority groups aren't as well and they would lean left. This is something interesting I saw.

From: RK
10-Sep-21
Well Dana. Deaths on the Democratic side of COVID are 3 to 1. Dream on Your communist party is doing well so far.

From: t-roy
10-Sep-21
Unfortunately, that doesn’t keep them from voting, RK.

From: TGbow
10-Sep-21
Social Security is a prime example of how poorly the government can run amuck. Handle somebodys money like that in the private sector and you will be sitting in prison. Democrat or Republican..doesnt matter. They've both done a great job at stripping away our freedoms. Honestly, I hadn't figured out what the Republican leadership stands for, at least with the Democrats I know they have a Marxist agenda. Covid is a serious thing no doubt..I do take it seriously. When I , my wife n 17 yr old daughter had it last month, it was concerning for sure. My son is 35 but still in the reserves, they will force him to get the vax Im sure.

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21
"Well Dana. Deaths on the Democratic side of COVID are 3 to 1. Dream on Your communist party is doing well so far. "

Got data to back that?

10-Sep-21
Black folks are the largest unvaccinated subgroup.Going to fire them? Turn them away?

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21
"Honestly, I hadn't figured out what the Republican leadership stands for...":

Really? BOTH sides want POWER. Both sides know HOW to get it - MONEY. And the money is in military spending. If you were paying attention last week, BOTH sides were pushing for MORE spending. Defense contractors get rich, they kick back a percentage to RE-election PACs, (yes, on BOTH sides), defense contracts get parcelled out to 'friendly' congressional districts, rinse and repeat.

Did you ever look at how many states make parts for that POS F-35?

Ike warned us about this bullshit. January 1961, Eisenhower's Farewell Address. Probably the most important document in modern history, and bet your ass it is NOT being taught in schools, regardless of which way the district swings.

Democrats. Republicans. Whores of Mammon, every one of them.

From: RK
10-Sep-21
Well Dana. Deaths on the Democratic side of COVID are 3 to 1. Dream on Your communist party is doing well so far.

From: DanaC
10-Sep-21
Again, got data? Or are we playing Big Lie Bingo?

10-Sep-21
DanaC you are right,the industrial Military Complex.I have a best childhood friend that retired last year as a 3 star general.Now he has 4 corporations where he is the only employee.Basically he is a lobbyist with Pentagon connections.

$$$$$$$$

10-Sep-21
RK figure black folks in that state.They have learned by experience not to trust any Government

From: Grey Ghost
11-Sep-21
"Black folks are the largest unvaccinated subgroup."

That speaks volumes on this subject.

Matt

From: LINK
11-Sep-21
Grey Ghost I imagine it has a lot to do with them not wanting to say yes sir master Faucci sir. Yet so many caucasians are willing to be institutionalized.

11-Sep-21
First, the "vaccine" is NOT approved. On the August 23rd, the FDA merely extended the EUA for it, as they have done several times since they first recommended it. Also on August 23rd, the FDA gave approval for the licensing of the name of the "vaccine", again, NOT approval of it, but for the name of it. Lastly, as part of the licensing approval, the FDA gave them clear instructions as to what they must have on EVERY piece of printed material regarding it. In a nutshell, "All printed, promotional, and media related material must clearly and conspicuously state that this vaccine does not FDA approval..." The Pfizer and Moderna utilize mRNA to create protein stands of the virus, not the real virus. The creator of the mRNA technology, Robert Malone has stated on multiple occasions that he does not recommend it's use for this purpose. The J & J, is the "old school" way, where dead virus cells will trigger your body into creating it's own immunity to fight it. To be clear, NONE of them are even close to getting FDA approval, if that is, the FDA follows it's own standards and protocols. That is between 5-10 years of 3 separate clinical trials. Just ask yourself, how did they compress 5-10 years of research and clinical trials into 14 months? You don't need to a mathematician to figure that out. The the Biden/Fauci money trail. Only 2 dots need to be connected here. Trump went after Big Pharma because of their staggering price increase. Epi-Pen, Insulin, and basically any drug manufactured here is sold CHEAPER in Canada and Mexico are a few examples. Big Pharma mad at mean orange man in Whitehouse. Enter Biden and Fauci. Fauci continues to recommend vaccines for all, even though the "virus" has a 99.7% recovery rate" and only 6% of all deaths attributed to COVID came purely from COVID, the other 94% of those who died during the SCAMdemic had 2.6 underlying serious conditions. Check the CDC website for yourself. Then Biden purchased on 2 separate deals, 300 million doses of the vaccine for the government to distribute. If the Whitehouse is saying that 47% of the US population, which is at around 330 million, is already vaccinated, why purchase that ridiculous amount? Oh, and the Big Pharma execs made over $30 million in salary last year. Hydroxychloriquine works and has been is use for over 70 years. Ivermectin works also, but it's use is not as widespread as HCQ. Regeneron and other monoclonal antibody infusions also help. You can also boost you own immune system with diet and supplements. Zinc, Vitamin D coupled with Potassium and Magnesium Asparate, buffered Vitamin C, Kombucha and other probiotics for a healthy gut biome, Garlic, Ginger, Echinacea, and Manuka Honey all will boost your immune system. I live in the NYC metropolitan area have been working in NYC during the entire SCAMdemic. I have been on the trains commuting into Midtown, and my jobsite has over 700 tradesmen from 4 different states. Not I of anyone in my family has gotten it, that we know of, if we did, we had no symptoms. And those that I know that did have it, which I was EXPOSED to as well, either had no symptoms or mild symptoms for a day or 2 at the most. If you to get the vaccine or all 3 for that matter, go ahead, but don't attempt to instill your fear in me. Douse yourself with rubbing alcohol, bleach, Tile-X, burn your laundry after wearing it, leave your food in the garage for 3 days, burn your lawn, kill off every form of bacteria within your home, but don't tell me that I must do the same , or tell me that because I refuse to, that I causing the variants to spread and killing people. Wake up Sheeple, Comrade Joe has the blackshirts ready!!!!

From: Grey Ghost
11-Sep-21

Grey Ghost's Link
"First, the "vaccine" is NOT approved."

Nonsense. Per the FDA (see link for the official announcement): "Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty (koe-mir’-na-tee), for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older."

" The creator of the mRNA technology, Robert Malone...."

More nonsense. Malone is just one of hundreds who contributed to the development of mRNA vaccines over decades of research.

I didn't read the the rest of your rambling post, since you missed badly on your first 2 points.

Matt

From: Nemophilist
11-Sep-21
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/members-congress-aides-exempt-bidens-vax-mandate/

From: Franklin
11-Sep-21
Matt you also "missed badly". Not a single drop or dose of "Cominarty" has been produced. The "non-vaccines" that are being issued are still BioNTech still fall under EUA and still offer limited liability to the makers.

Why are liability protections still in place for an approved "vaccine". "Cominarty" is not expected to be produced until late 2022-2023.

There have been legal scholars and large law firms that looked into the legal ease of the "approval" and it appears "legally" the citizens have been hoodwinked again.

11-Sep-21
FDA approval really came into the spotlight because of a morning sickness drug called Thalidomide. Pregnant women who were prescribed the drug during the 1960's saw a large increase in babies being born with partial or missing limbs, or fused fingers and toes (lobster boy). Because of that, any drug then had to go through 7 years of clinical testing on animals, followed by 7 years of clinical testing on humans. The standards and protocols have evolved into the 3 stage clinical trials today, but it is still between 5-10 years of trials. You can believe what you want, but it is impossible to compress 60-120 months into 14. My points are on target.

From: bigeasygator
11-Sep-21

bigeasygator's Link
Matt you also "missed badly". Not a single drop or dose of "Cominarty" has been produced.

Well, that’s straight up wrong.

It is an identical product with the same formulation. To suggest Cominarty has never been manufactured is misleading at a minimum. It’s the same vaccine. The only meaningful differences are how it is legally treated and how it is being marketed.

“Comirnaty has the same formulation as the FDA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness concerns. The products are legally distinct with certain differences that do not impact safety or effectiveness.”

Furthermore, since it is an identical product chemically speaking, it has been produced and studied extensively.

“Follow-up data from this ongoing clinical trial was analyzed by FDA to determine the safety and effectiveness of Comirnaty. The updated analysis to determine effectiveness for individuals 16 years of age and older included approximately 20,000 Comirnaty and 20,000 placebo recipients who did not have evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection through seven days after the second dose. Overall, the vaccine was 91% effective, with 77 cases of COVID-19 occurring in the vaccine group and 833 COVID-19 cases in the placebo group.

The safety was evaluated in approximately 22,000 Comirnaty and 22,000 placebo recipients 16 years of age and older. More than half of the vaccine and placebo recipients were followed for safety for at least four months after the second dose. After issuance of the EUA, participants were unblinded in a phased manner over a period of months to offer placebo participants Comirnaty. Overall, in blinded and unblinded follow-up, approximately 12,000 Comirnaty recipients have been followed for at least 6 months.”

From: Grey Ghost
11-Sep-21
BEG,

It blows me away how misinformed some Bowsiters can be. Even after our own experts, like Ike and Mike in CT, have taken time to explain the facts, they still cling to their misinformation. And worse, they try to spread it.

Matt

From: Kilroy66
11-Sep-21
As a covid survivor my biggest disappointment was the lack of therapeutics offered to boost your bodies defenses. I asked my doctor for something, H2Q, and was flatly denied. It was only when I couldn't speak without coughing that I was prescribed a Z-pack and coughing pills that I began to improve. Early intervention can only help, why wait until your in need of a ventilator is the lunacy of it all. Treat early, treat quickly but the act of doing nothing can kill you. Throw everything you can at it. By the way, I am looking for a new doctor.

From: bigeasygator
11-Sep-21
It blows me away how misinformed some Bowsiters can be. Even after our own experts, like Ike and Mike in CT, have taken time to explain the facts, they still cling to their misinformation. And worse, they try to spread it.

I’d say I’m shocked, but unfortunately I’m not surprised. It reinforces how real the struggle is, though, when people do not even get the most basic of facts.

From: Franklin
11-Sep-21
See Matt...you`re one of the "hoodwinked". BioNTech is a product....Cominarty is a separate product LEGALLY. That`s the point you aren`t understanding.

The shots being given ARE NOT Cominarty, they are BioNTech.....the term "interchangeable" is not a legal term.

The shots being given still fall under EUA and the makers are still under liability protection. Somehow you think that`s a small point. Large law firms have gone through this with a fine tooth comb in preparation for possible litigation. The name change from BioNTech which actually sounds like a medicine to Cominarty.....sounds like a candy bar....should tell you everything you need to know. You have been played.

It`s sad our citizenry isn`t more informed and so easily misled.

From: bigeasygator
11-Sep-21
See Matt...you`re one of the "hoodwinked". BioNTech is a product

No, it isn’t. Again, people not understanding basic facts. BioNTech is a company, not a product.

It`s sad our citizenry isn`t more informed and so easily misled.

Coming from someone who doesn’t even understand BioNTech is a company that developed the vaccine with Pfizer, this is one of the most ironic of statements I’ve read.

11-Sep-21
Franklin, you are exactly right. EUA is NOT FDA approval. Anyone can check for themselves to see what must transpire for FDA approval. 5-10 years, not 14 months of a fear mongering agenda SCAMdemic. Anyone can read that is was granted an extension of the EUA. Anyone can read that Cominarty was only given licensing approval, and not BioNTech. And again, anyone can read where any printed material must say "This product has not been granted FDA approval."

From: bigeasygator
11-Sep-21
Anyone can read that Cominarty was only given licensing approval, and not BioNTech.

Where to begin. BioNTech is the name of a company, and not a product. Too many of you seem to be misunderstanding this very basic point.

The whole point behind rebranding the vaccine developed by Pfizer and BioNTech and giving it a name is the fact that it can now be legally marketed and advertised.

Continuing the EUA has everything to do about inventory management and vaccine distribution, and nothing to do with trying to pull one over on the American public.

As someone once said, “It`s sad our citizenry isn`t more informed and so easily misled.”

From: Grey Ghost
11-Sep-21
Franklin,

If you change the name of an apple, it's still an apple. Cominarty and the Pfizer vaccine are the SAME formulation, and can be used interchangably, per the FDA.

As for your liability concerns, you can thank GW Bush for that one. He signed the PREP Act into law that allows the federal government to provide liability immunity to drug manufactures in circumstances like these. Which, btw, is probably why the vaccines are free to everyone.

You see, unlike you apparently, I don't have an inherent distrust for our government, nor our medical community. I applauded Trump when he rolled out Operation Warp Speed to streamline the development, manufacturing, and distribution of the COVID vaccines. I honestly think that the record short timeline that it took to bring us the vaccines will go down as one of our medical community's greatest achievements in the last few decades.

Matt

From: Franklin
11-Sep-21
BioNTech product has not been FDA approved and is the only Pfizer product being distributed. There has not been a single drop or dose of the approved Cominarty approved "non-vaccine" produced or administered.

I stand by my statement of people being "hoodwinked" and "uninformed".

The FDA receives 45% of it`s funding from fees from Big Pharma.....65% of the fees from human use medical drugs fund the FDA. Do a quick search of how many FDA officials leave the FDA and are now working for Big Pharma.

This so called "vaccine" doesn`t even have the actual virus in it....it`s a synthetic and doesn`t meet the definition of a "vaccine".

You are correct about one thing.....no I do not trust the government that funded and help create the virus that killed millions. By the time it`s all said and done, the US government will have a hand in Hitleresque death tallies. So no I do not "trust" big government.

But you probably still believe it was bat soup that created this virus...so....

From: bigeasygator
11-Sep-21
BioNTech product has not been FDA approved and is the only Pfizer product being distributed

They are the SAME product. The “Pfizer” vaccine was developed in conjunction with the company BioNTech. It has been produced, administered, and tested and this vaccine is now fully approved by the FDA. It has now been rebranded as the product Cominarty after extensive testing in human beings - just because the name changed doesn’t mean that it is something “different” in all the ways that matter medically speaking. This really isn’t that hard.

And yes it is a vaccine. The overall definition of what a vaccine is has not changed. It is a still a “substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases.”

Stop with the misinformation and get your damn facts right. This is just sad.

From: Grey Ghost
11-Sep-21
Apparently it is hard for some, BEG.

Matt

11-Sep-21

ND String Puller's Link
This video may change your mind about our government.

From: Stix
12-Sep-21
More from the infectious disease specialists of Bowsite.

From: DanaC
12-Sep-21
Dave, I don't watch TV and don't follow CNN. Or FOX. (And if anyone actually believes that Rupert Murdoch is an America-first guy, well, I got bridges for sale...)

From: Grey Ghost
12-Sep-21
Dave says I’m ignorant and “100% wrong on many counts”, but he can’t name a single one. How cute.

Matt

From: TGbow
12-Sep-21
I dont trust Fox News either. 90% of the media are bias. Im not anti vax myself, but I damn sure dont trust the government, especially the administration we have now. Its hard to figure out what the truth is as far as info on Covid. Vaccinations can be a good thing but it should be a persons choice..if they want to get vaccinated or whether they want Ivermectin. I believe the people in the labs developing vaccines have the best intentions and want to help us but its the CDC and politicians that I don't trust as far as telling us the whole story.

12-Sep-21
think of it this way. before a baby is born, it has no official or legal name. When the baby is born, and an official birth certificate is completed, the baby now has an official legal name. same with the pfizer vaccine before and after fda approval. its the same damn baby...now it has a name.

From: spike78
12-Sep-21
Dave, you didn’t know that the liberals know everything and what they say is how it should be?

From: DanaC
12-Sep-21
Ricky, some people think 'ibuprofen' and 'Advil' are two different things ;-)

Spike, I see the same thing on both sides. I tend to believe whoever comes in with hard data. Not bluster, not arguments 'ad hominem'.

12-Sep-21
"Ricky, some people think 'ibuprofen' and 'Advil' are two different things"

it's even worse. advil and ibuprofen can be and often are manufactured by different companies. in this case its the same company, same vaccine, they just gave it a legal name. ...same damn parents...same damn baby...now it has a legal name.

From: Nemophilist
12-Sep-21
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/members-congress-aides-exempt-bidens-vax-mandate/

From: spike78
12-Sep-21
Dana, the difference is that conservatives don’t care what liberals do with their life but liberals get involved with ours on every aspect. Examples such as gun control, anti hunting, mandates, helmets for motorcyclists, banning menthol cigarettes, you have no right to defend yourself with a handgun in the city, etc.

From: Grunter
12-Sep-21
Exactly!! ^^^^

From: DanaC
12-Sep-21
Go peddle that to the women in Texas.

From: Matt
12-Sep-21
"Dana, the difference is that conservatives don’t care what liberals do with their life but liberals get involved with ours on every aspect."

Haha, the current attempts at restricting abortion and voting suggests otherwise.

From: RK
12-Sep-21
Dana and matt. Have you read any of those bills or are you just listening to you sides talking points

Make it easy. How are voting rights being restricted in Texas Facts only please, based on what was passed as law?

From: Matt
13-Sep-21
"Dana and matt. Have you read any of those bills or are you just listening to you sides talking points Make it easy. How are voting rights being restricted in Texas Facts only please, based on what was passed as law?"

Make it easy by twisting the discussion to limit it only to bills that have been passed, only bills that relate to voting rights, and then only those passed in Texas? Given the previous comments to which we were responding , that seems to be a really intellectually dishonest question.

The GOP exists outside of Texas, the things they desire to do are not fully embodied in passed legislation, and those desires extend beyond voting rights.

Let's talk about the abortion law that Texas recently passed which, as I understand it, bans abortions after 6 weeks of pregnancy (which is sooner than many women learn they are pregnant), so it could be construed as a de facto abortion ban. While I am generally pro-life, the COVID/vaccine discussion has opened my eyes to how important it is to let people to make personal decisions that affect the lives of others. As such - and I am sure you are on the same page - people should be allowed to make healthcare decisions personally without consideration of how they impact others (in this case, an unborn fetus).

Tangentially, I find it ironic that conservatives are generally both pro-life and anti-welfare - so in many cases they both want to force women to have babies they do not want/cannot afford and then desire to eliminate the social safety net that they would need.

On the voting front, the grand irony is that most legislative changes were initiated by people who have bought into Trumps lies surrounding the 2020 presidential election having been fixed (of which I have seen 0 evidence). That is flatly stupid.

Since the election, GOPD politicians in 43 states have proposed ~250 laws to change the voting process. Much of this legislation was designed to limit mail in ballots, limit early in-person and election day voting and impose stricter voter ID requirements. While I am on board with ID requirements, from an outsider's perspective much of the other proposed legislation appears to be designed to limit access to low income/minority voters. In my opinion, that is flatly un-Americans.

One only has to look at some of the aspects of Georgia's voter law that subtly makes it more difficult for some people to vote and also makes the process of evaluating any contested ballots more subject to a partisan process. Again, that seems patently un-American.

If it makes you fell better, I think Biden's comments about these efforts being "Jim Crow 2.0" are hyperbolic and inflammatory, but I think that in a subtle way he is directionally correct as to their intent.

From: spike78
13-Sep-21
“While I am generally pro-life, the COVID/vaccine discussion has opened my eyes to how important it is to let people to make personal decisions that affect the lives of others. As such - and I am sure you are on the same page - people should be allowed to make healthcare decisions personally without consideration of how they impact others (in this case, an unborn fetus).“ HaHa could have fooled me with your vaccine rants!

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
What happened in Texas should be commended. Anytime life is protected, that is a good thing

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
What happened in Texas proves that 'conservatives' who pay lip service to libertarian ideals are full of crap.

"We support important freedoms", like the right to smoke menthol cigarettes and bike without helmets. Lah dee dah. When the _hard_ choices come down you're as authoritarian as the Taliban.

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
Dana, your statement shows how twisted the left is. If life isnt sacred enough to be protected then none of us are safe.

Put religious beliefs aside..a child in the womb is a person unto themselves. ..real science proves that. You have no argument other than the fact you believe we have a right to decide what class of people have no rights. Kinda like the pro slavery crowd declaring black people were not human and equal to the white race. Whether you are a Christian, athiest or whetever, natural law tells us certain things are wrong. You just dont wantvto accept it

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
TGBow, have you ever noticed that in discussion of the life of the fetus, the rights of the woman are *immediately dismissed* ?

This is why I won't debate it. You can not be for 'rights' when you casually dismiss the rights of half the population. And sorry, all the arguments you will make -next- about sex will be based on religious beliefs. So...

Not impressed when 'conservatives' adopt and then abandon libertarian principles to suit their needs.

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
Dave, *IF* I agree that vaccination should be *by choice* will you agree that women have the right to control their own reproductive status? (And not just by 'crossing their legs'?)

Because while I strongly support vaccination, I prefer shaming those who oppose it to mandating it. And while I support 'abortion rights' I strongly prefer shaming women who fail to use proper birth control.

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
PS the real heck of it is, the 'new' McConnell dream team Supreme Court has openly shown that it may break with the precedent of Roe v Wade. If they do, bet on it that Biden will 'pack' the court with 5 hard-left liberals. And then *all* our rights will be in jeopardy. Mandatory vaccinations will be the least of it.

Be careful what you wish for.

13-Sep-21
What is "generally pro life"

Unless it's your daughter? Downs?

13-Sep-21
Voter Bills/Laws were proposed/enacted due to the flagrant disregard of DEMONcratic controlled states election amendment regs. DEMONcratic Governors bypassed their state's legislatures and forced the new regs onto their citizens on their own. ANY amendment to voting regs should have been presented to and voted upon by the state's legislatures. Mail-in ballots are wrought with fraud, as they have been proven to be stolen, falsified, and in the worst case, fake. Myself and my wife each received 3 from my district. What is wrong with voter ID and a signature check at the polling sites? You cannot board a plane, go the doctor, enter a government building, purchase a fishing license, open a checking account, collect unemployment, etc.., without showing ID, but to vote, no problem. How did some states show 100%, or even 106% of voter turn out!!!! Every citizen, including those below voting age and more turned out to vote. I guess, like Stalin said; "It doesn't matter who votes, it's who counts the votes that matters." And what, no comments on the FDA protocols and time table (3 stages of clinical trials, which take between 5-10 years) for REAL FDA approval? Keep on drinking the Kool Aid Comrades, just make sure it's the RED one, you don't want upset China!

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
Dana. ..the child, scientifically, is a person unto themselves. The pro abortion crowd cant deny that. BTW, there are many people that are not religious at all that recognize abortion is wrong. The simple truth is, the pro abortion are condoning murder. Why do you think the abolitionist fought slavery so hard? Because they understood that black people are equal and should not be enslaved. Its a slippery slope when a nation starts deciding who has the right to live and who dont. Biden is pro death...this whole mandated vax movement is about control..they could care less about our rights. I think a person is probably better off getting the vaccine but it should never be forced. The problem with tne left is they have no common sense logic to engage right n wrong issues, whether they be Democrat or Republicrat

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
TGBOW, again, you dismiss the rights of women without a backward glance. Just remember, they vote too.

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
Dana, what gives the gov the authority to decide which human beings live? You have no argument. Only thing you can say is one life is more important than another.

13-Sep-21
The politics that both parties want, is eating away at the populace. It’s insane to argue over which party best aligns with individual rights and, adherence to the constitution to keep the guberment in check. It’s a no brainer. No sense in arguing over it.

The law defining right versus wrong is written in the Ten Commandments. End of story. No interpretation needed.

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
"You have no argument. Only thing you can say is one life is more important than another. "

EXACTLY what YOU are doing, putting the unborn against the already-living. And disenfranchising HER.

From: LINK
13-Sep-21
I would hate to be on the side that tries to argue that the termination (murder) of an unborn or in some instances born child is a right of someone else. This is the same party that would or will one day support senicide and enforce 1 child policies like China.

From: Tracker
13-Sep-21
That article reads like an advertisement.

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
Dana, the point is both lives have value..believe what you want..you have that right to have faulty, humanistic opinions

From: bigeasygator
13-Sep-21
First, the vaccine was not approved by the FDA through proper channels. This is a shell game by the FDA and CDC. Vaccines can not be approved without years of clinical trials and completing "stages" of testing that have been conveniently scrubbed from the FDA and CDC websites so people won't question why they are not following their own protocol which has been in place for years. The vaccine that was magically approved is not one and the same as the one being given currently. They just want you to think it is so ignorant people will think it's safe to get the unapproved vaccines now, even though they are far from safe.

This whole statement is demonstrably false. Medicines, vaccines or otherwise, do not all require "years" of testing, and the fully approved Pfizer vaccine went through all the normal FDA processes, including the three phases of clinical trials.

Second, Robert Malone did indeed invent mRNA technology. The only people claiming he didn't are liberal media outlets, you know the ones you get your "facts" from.

He was one of the first and one of many, but there are others who the scientific community (not the liberal media outlets) give more credit to with respect to mRNA vaccine technology. As GG rightly points out, there were multiple players involved and he was but one.

So you might want to look in the mirror when you discuss "ignorant" and "incorrect" assertions, Dave.

13-Sep-21
LINK, the DEMONcratic party's own "Dementia Joe" already has a prominent member on their COVID-19 Task Force who promotes people dying at age 75. Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of Rahm Emanuel, has stated that he himself hopes to die by 75, and will not seek to prolong his life past that age if he lives. "Society, families, and you will be better off if nature takes it's course swiftly and promptly." Read the article he wrote for the Atlantic. Sick and twisted mentality. As far as choices go, first did anyone of these pro-choice folks ever once consider if their own mother decided to terminate the parasite (as they refer to an embryo) growing inside her womb, or that every man and woman does has a choice, to use or insist on birth control, or not and roll the dice. Abortion has evolved to become the new birth control. ZERO responsibility on the parties involved, except the one who doesn't have a voice doesn't have a choice.

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
Al, but they say the Leftist in DC are not Marxist, Communist, ect...but yet we have over 100 yrs of history to reflect back on, and its these type of governments that are guilty of dehumanizing certain sects of people. Lime I told my inlaws...dont complain to me when the time comes and the gov has total control of every aspect of your life and they decide who is worthy to live and who is not. Biden is not the first to over step his boundaries nor is this the first over reach of congress. Loncoln, Woodrow, Teddy and many more did it. One of the reasons they pushed for courts to quit looking to the constitution for their rulings , and refer to "past cases" that previous judegs ruled on...So that eventually you can make it up as you go..enter activist judges.

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
"Dana, what gives the gov the authority to decide which human beings live?"

What gives the gov't of Texas the authority to decide?

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
The gov of Texas is not deciding who gets murdered, they are attempting to protect innocent lives. Your position on the other hand os pro murder..whether you want to admit it or not

From: Treeline
13-Sep-21
The Constitution contains no Right to abortion.

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
The gov't of Texas is attempting to criminalize and/or enslave pregnant women. Your position is pro-slavery whether you admit it or not.

Look. Abortion sucks. It is not the easy choice the religious right makes it out to be. (Ask a women's health counselor about that.) But when the option of providing all women (and all men) with easy access to birth control is brought up, the religious right either comes out as anti-sex (good luck with that!) or they trot out the 'socialist medicine!' play. Either way, they get to feel good about themselves without putting any money up. I don't know which is worse, the phony piety or the plain damn cheapness.

You want to cut down on abortions? Pony up. (And sorry, no, poor women will not stop having sex with or without protection, just because it pleases you.)

From: bigeasygator
13-Sep-21
The Constitution contains no Right to abortion.

The Constitution is also not an enumeration of all of the rights to which we have been endowed. And the SCOTUS has ruled that the Constitution does protect the right to an abortion (citing the 9th and 14th Amendments).

From: LINK
13-Sep-21
Dana I don’t expect people to not fornicate. But once they make the decision to create life there should be no option to destroy it. People have been having sex and creating children outside of marriage since the beginning of time. Killing a baby in the womb is the problem not people having sex. Talking about enslaving women….The black race is the biggest victim of abortion. I think you’re racist and you just want to exterminate as many minorities as possible.

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
Just because the SC rules that abortion is legal doesn't mean it matches up with the constitution..yes , its legal in that sense but so are a lot of other laws. The question with any legislation, executive order, and even amendments...does it contradict core principals layed down in the constitution? If the SC court ruled that its ok to have sex with a child does that mean its ok? The problem is we have people in all branches of gov that dont care about the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..and unfortunately we have enough people that apparently don't care either. What the hell good is a constitution that lays down your rights if the gov can step all over them

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
"I think you’re racist and you just want to exterminate as many minorities as possible. "

Wow. I think you're a racist and want to deny minorities the right to vote and affordable health care.

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
"Just because the SC rules that abortion is legal doesn't mean it matches up with the constitution.."

A lot of things don't 'match up with the Constitution'. that's the same silly argument anti-gunners use about the 2nd and 'assault rifles.' The Constitution and BoR was never intended to be a *comprehensive* list of the rights we enjoy. The Ninth Amendment, reads as follows: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Hence the 'right to privacy' - and hence abortion - affirmed by SCOTUS in Roe v wade.

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
PS as I said earlier - if this court doesn't re-affirm Roe, Biden *will* pack the court and then we are all truly f*ed.

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
All I can say is Im glad that Dana wasnt makin the decision for me when I was inside tje womb and Im glad somebody chose the right to life for all of us here on this site

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
So am I !!! Not *my* call - and not yours either.

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
You would probably have a different opinion if it were you and your could speak to yourself from the womb. Nothing but genocide

From: spike78
13-Sep-21
Honestly I do think the Dems are racist and want to kill minority babies hence pro choice.

From: DanaC
13-Sep-21
Yeah, because minorities overwhelmingly vote Republican, right? Sheesh.

From: Matt
13-Sep-21
"What happened in Texas should be commended. Anytime life is protected, that is a good thing"

So you are supportive of mask and vaccine mandates?

From: Matt
13-Sep-21

Matt's Link
"Grey Ghost I imagine it has a lot to do with them not wanting to say yes sir master Faucci sir. Yet so many caucasians are willing to be institutionalized."

It has a lot to do with them having been treated like lab rats by our government in the Tuskegee syphilis experiments and others.

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
Matt..you cant be serious. Im talkin about murder..unbelievable.

No wonder this country is such piss poor condition.

13-Sep-21
I figured since there is so much expertise on the subject, I should ask here. Is it true that clinical trials of these vaccines involve aborted fetus cells?

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
David , this is from Nebraska Medicine.

"No, the COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells. However, fetal cell lines – cells grown in a laboratory based on aborted fetal cells collected generations ago – were used in testing during research and development of the mRNA vaccines, and during production of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. "

13-Sep-21
Thanks TG. Ok so the origins come from aborted fetuses? Whether current or from the 60’s, people are supposed to be ok with that?

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
David , sounds like something from Nazi Germany

13-Sep-21
Yes tell me about it. Considering the death rate on the China flu is so small, I don’t get the Pom Pom girls who are helping push the vaccine agenda. Especially when so little is known on long term effects. Just shows how easy many are brainwashed and manipulated........

From: Grey Ghost
13-Sep-21
"Is it true that clinical trials of these vaccines involve aborted fetus cells?"

From my understanding, no, it's not true. They use lab grown stem cell clones that descend from fetal cells collected 50 years ago. They are called "fetal cell lines". Basically, it's like keeping a heirloom tomato strain going. The specific fetal cell line used in testing the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is called HEK 293.

Disclaimer, I'm not a scientist, doctor, nor a contagious virus expert. But, I can search and read articles from reputable sources to educate myself.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
13-Sep-21
"Thanks TG. Ok so the origins come from aborted fetuses? Whether current or from the 60’s, people are supposed to be ok with that?"

So, I guess you're against the vaccines for smallpox, rubella, Hepatitis A, and rabies, too, eh? They were all tested on viruses grown on fetal cells.

The obvious reason they test vaccines using lab grown fetal cells is because the viruses being targeted affect human cells, and not necessarily animal cells.

Matt

From: Matt
13-Sep-21

Matt's Link
"Yes tell me about it. Considering the death rate on the China flu is so small, I don’t get the Pom Pom girls who are helping push the vaccine agenda. Especially when so little is known on long term effects. Just shows how easy many are brainwashed and manipulated........"

Speaking of brain washed and manipulated, what leads you to believe that long-terms side effects are likely from a 1 or 2 dose vaccine? We are not talking about a daily medication that builds in the body over time. Vaccine side effects generally present within ~6 weeks of being administered. There have been almost 6B doses given worldwide, so there is robust data on which side effects have been observed and their relative frequency.

In fact, I recently read an article from someone in the medical field saying that we have a more robust data set for the COVID vaccines given their broad-based administration than we get from the clinical trials done to support FDA approval of other drugs.

Just another straw man....

13-Sep-21
Thanks Pom Pom girl. I am against anything to do with abortion thank you very much. And it’s funny how “my body my choice” only applies to abortion. But I digress. Anytime you have tyrants like the president in thief, a guy like Fauci who has been involved with the Wuhan lab for many years even warning of a coming pandemic in the early 2000 teens, and then lying about his involvement, and guys like Bill Gates, Fauci and Soros profiting from these vaccines and paying for the mainstream media to push the agenda, yea I am just a little bit skeptical. On top of it all you have an Israeli study that blows the narrative out of the water in terms of if you’ve had the Rona and whether you should get the vaccine anyway. And on top of it all guys like you still believe that the Rona jumped from a bat to a human naturally. No thanks. I’ll take my chances at living or dying when God determines it’s my time. Neither you or any of the rest of the Pom Pom girls will decide that for me. You’re just another sucker spewing what crooked politicians and bureaucrats are telling you to say........

From: Matt
13-Sep-21
"Thanks Pom Pom girl. I am against anything to do with abortion thank you very much. And it’s funny how “my body my choice” only applies to abortion."

Who is saying "my body, my choice" only applies to abortion? If one approaches both COVID vaccination and abortion from the overarching perspective that life is sacred and should be protected, they should be logically consistent and apply that to both (or neither). Invoking it on their own behalf but rejecting other's ability to do so comes off as massively hypocritical.

13-Sep-21
I reject abortion (which by its own nature is racist when you look at the demographic mostly affected when it was out in place by progressive, racist Democrats at its inception) and vaccines that come from it and I reject tyranny. What is so hypocritical about that?

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
David, you're waiting your time. You are using logic, some people cant deal with that

13-Sep-21
There is a fairly safe pharmaceutical way to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening but I wouldn't support it being mandatory.

From: smarba
13-Sep-21
While I agree with TG and others that it's a waste of time trying to use logic....

"Who is saying "my body, my choice" only applies to abortion? If one approaches both COVID vaccination and abortion from the overarching perspective that life is sacred and should be protected, they should be logically consistent and apply that to both (or neither). Invoking it on their own behalf but rejecting other's ability to do so comes off as massively hypocritical. "

My body my choice for abortion in fact ends up killing 50% of the people involved in the activity. It's my body I can do what I want.

Yet when it's my body and I don't want to get a forced vaccination, you're telling me I can't do what I want...despite virus killing far less than 50% of the people involved. Like less than 1%...

13-Sep-21
Yes Clay there are a host of things that are deeply disturbing in play here. And I don’t want to minimize the unhealthy who fight for their lives when they contract this plague that China unleashed on the world. What pisses me off is guys like both Matt’s and several others on here want me to give up my freedom because they are willing to give theirs up because they’ve bought in hook line and sinker. They are also quick to “follow the science” as long as it fits the narrative, while quickly dismissing other possible treatments, and making fun of those just like CNN does, when other successful outcomes happen. They are purposely pushing the narrative that no one is allowed to question. And why do you suppose that is? Since when as a free people are we not supposed to question questionable mandates from elected officials and demand accountability instead of a half lost former Vice President making a speech and then walking off confused and not taking questions. I’m supposed to believe this clown has the best interest of the United States of America at heart? Yeah right. And don’t get me started on bureaucrats dictating what’s good for us. And the Pom Pom girls right there egging it on. I don’t know about most of you, but this dictatorship running rampant, shutting businesses down, bending a knee to China, calling riots peaceful protests, and mostly peaceful protests with a few agitators mixed in insurrections when no weapons found or looting taking place, all being supported by progressives like the guys here pushing the narrative. It’s just mind boggling that this crap is allowed to happen in a free country........

From: TGbow
13-Sep-21
Dave..thats it in a nutshell. Well said!

From: Matt
13-Sep-21
"What pisses me off is guys like both Matt’s and several others on here want me to give up my freedom because they are willing to give theirs up because they’ve bought in hook line and sinker.:

Hah, that couldn't be further from the truth. I just wish you would be logically consistent, keep up with the news if you are going to post up conspiracy theories on breaking news that pretty much everyone else knew about 3 months ago, and brush up on your math skills.

From: Thornton
13-Sep-21
You all do whatever you want, I dont care. But I will tell you this new variety is a special sort of demon. I'm working two ERs in Kansas now, and I am seeing critical covid patients almost daily. I know multiple people 40 and under that have recently died, and several more that barely made it. I'm seeing survivors daily that have permanent heart and lung damage. I'm still seeing quite a few vaccinated patients, but they are not quite as bad. Not sure what the answer is, but you're an idiot if you think you're invincible.

From: Grunter
13-Sep-21
Were the under 40 people obese or smokers? Any underlying conditions?

From: DanaC
14-Sep-21
"I reject abortion... and I reject tyranny. What is so hypocritical about that? "

Do you support the paid-informant, legal-harrassment system that Texas has put into law? Because that crap is straight out of the KGB playbook. Or the Stasi. Tyranny at its damnedest.

The people from Texas that I've 'met' on the internet here and elsewhere are good folks, but they have started a culture war that I fear is going to burn them badly. I hope I'm wrong, both for them and because it might spread worse than any physical disease.

From: TGbow
14-Sep-21
Dana, the SC already started a war 48 yrs ago on the unborn. Sad thing in America when all life is not valued and protected. Pure evil is all it is any way you cut it.

From: DanaC
14-Sep-21
Dave, rather than repeating that CNN shibboleth, why not post YOUR sources, countering what has been presented. If YOU have spent 'some time investigating the truth', that shouldn't be difficult.

From: KSflatlander
14-Sep-21
Dave- why don’t you back your statements up because thus far you have not.

14-Sep-21
What's with all the emphasis on FDA approval anyway? Our government has backed and recommended all sorts of nonsense such as, use of glyphosate on our food, oxycontin (heroin prescribed by a doc) and the food pyramid which recommended 6-11 servings of processed carbs a day. I believe the vaccine to be safe based on ample evidence that has not originated from our government.

From: Jeff Durnell
14-Sep-21
Exactly right

From: TGbow
14-Sep-21
I trust Fauci and the FDA about as much as I trust Bill Clinton. Fauci is a joke..and a bad one at that

From: bigeasygator
14-Sep-21

bigeasygator's Link
NONE of this was done under proper scrutiny or duration, BTW, for the COVID vaccines.

Again, straight up wrong. Directly from the FDA website (which is hilarious that you linked to because if you spent any time looking at what was done you'd realize how far off base you are).

FDA-approved vaccines undergo the agency’s standard process for reviewing the quality, safety and effectiveness of medical products. For all vaccines, the FDA evaluates data and information included in the manufacturer’s submission of a biologics license application (BLA). A BLA is a comprehensive document that is submitted to the agency providing very specific requirements. For Comirnaty, the BLA builds on the extensive data and information previously submitted that supported the EUA, such as preclinical and clinical data and information, as well as details of the manufacturing process, vaccine testing results to ensure vaccine quality, and inspections of the sites where the vaccine is made. The agency conducts its own analyses of the information in the BLA to make sure the vaccine is safe and effective and meets the FDA’s standards for approval.

...

The first EUA, issued Dec. 11, for the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for individuals 16 years of age and older was based on safety and effectiveness data from a randomized, controlled, blinded ongoing clinical trial of thousands of individuals.

To support the FDA’s approval decision today, the FDA reviewed updated data from the clinical trial which supported the EUA and included a longer duration of follow-up in a larger clinical trial population.

Specifically, in the FDA’s review for approval, the agency analyzed effectiveness data from approximately 20,000 vaccine and 20,000 placebo recipients ages 16 and older who did not have evidence of the COVID-19 virus infection within a week of receiving the second dose. The safety of Comirnaty was evaluated in approximately 22,000 people who received the vaccine and 22,000 people who received a placebo 16 years of age and older.

Based on results from the clinical trial, the vaccine was 91% effective in preventing COVID-19 disease.

More than half of the clinical trial participants were followed for safety outcomes for at least four months after the second dose. Overall, approximately 12,000 recipients have been followed for at least 6 months.

You provide a link to the steps necessary to obtain vaccine approval, all of which were followed as required as it pertains to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. The other links you provided are nothing more than opinion pieces, from some mighty dubious sources I may add (the New Eastern Outlook? LOL).

But I'll give you another chance and ask the same question others have, what specifically was done outside of the FDA guidelines/requirements as it pertained to the approval of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine? Posting a link to all the steps that were actually followed doesn't really help your case.

From: Grey Ghost
14-Sep-21
Dave,

Mike in CT, who has 30 years of experience in the infectious virus field, has already explained, in depth, how the usual FDA approval process was streamlined, largely due to Trump's multi-billion dollar Project Warp Speed, to make Covid vaccines available in record time. I'm sure you'd be praising those efforts, if he were still in office.

After decades of research and development by hundreds of scientists around the world, If you still think Robert Malone was the sole inventor of the mRNA technology, there's not much I can do but shake my head and ignore you.

Matt

From: bigeasygator
14-Sep-21

bigeasygator's Link
I also do like how you posted the link to the quote from Malone on the Bannon show saying the following:

"[Comirnaty] is absolutely not available. So the little trick that they have done here, is [the U.S. Food and Drug Administration] issued two separate letters for two separate vaccines. The Pfizer vaccine, which is what currently available is still under Emergency Use Authorization…

The product that’s licensed [by the FDA] is the BioNTech product, which is substantially similar but not necessarily identical. It’s called Comirnaty. And it’s not yet available. They haven’t started manufacturing it or labeling it."

You do realize he's walked back that statement right? He admitted he was completely wrong. Now you can go ahead and do the same. We're waiting.

"Malone quickly conceded his statement on the Bannon show was wrong. “When one is doing rapid analysis on the fly, one does not always get everything right,” he told The Fact Checker. “On this particular legal liability issue I did not hunt down the details myself, and relied on comments from a third party lawyer which were not fully correct.” He said the statements we received from Pfizer and HHS “are consistent with my current understanding.”

From: bigeasygator
14-Sep-21
Mike in CT, who has 30 years of experience in the infectious virus field, has already explained, in depth, how the usual FDA approval process was streamlined, largely due to Trump's multi-billion dollar Project Warp Speed, to make Covid vaccines available in record time. I'm sure you'd be praising those efforts, if he were still in office.

What was streamlined was essentially the procurement and manufacturing aspects related to vaccine rollout.

In addition, some of the testing was done in parallel steps, not sequentially as would have been typical. None of these steps related to testing or clinical trials were bypassed or shortened prior to full-FDA approval.

From: Grey Ghost
14-Sep-21
You are correct, Jason, and your comments reflect exactly what Mike in CT told us a few months ago. Obviously, guys like Dave would rather believe sources like the Russian-controlled New Eastern Outlook, then our own resident experts who are also some of the most respected members we have on Bowsite. That's sad.

Matt

From: TGbow
14-Sep-21
The ground work for the vaccines was already layed out. A lot of people understand that the people in the labs doing research are trying to do their best. The problem a lot of people have ,including myself, they dont trust Fauci or the CDC or FDA to be forthcoming with all the facts. It shouldn't be a surprise that a lot of folks dont trust the government. Most of all they dont want to be told they have to be vaccinated.. I lean to the opinion that most people are probably better off getting vaxed..but they should also have the choice if they choose to use another form of treatment. Then to add fuel to the fire there is misinformation on both sides of the coin

From: bigeasygator
14-Sep-21
Obviously, guys like Dave would rather believe sources like the Russian-controlled New Eastern Outlook, then our own resident experts who are also some of the most respected members we have on Bowsite. That's sad.

If I'm keeping track, the "proof" that Dave provided that we are wrong and ignorant is:

- a quote from Dr. Malone that he walked back and admitted was wrong

- a list of the steps required to obtain vaccine approval, all of which were followed by Pfizer/BioNTech

- opinion pieces published by Russian media outlets

Sad indeed.

From: TGbow
14-Sep-21
Whats sad is the sheep we have in this nation

From: Treeline
14-Sep-21
With any safe, effective alternative treatments available there is no longer a need for the EUA.

Nor is there a need for EUA of injections if the disease is not as deadly as they claim it to be… 94% of “Covid deaths” died with it versus the 6% that died from it.

Not to mention the PCR test being run twice as many iterations as the standard test procedure and on a mixed sample baseline that doesn’t even include an isolated SARS2 (COVID-19) virus…

Suppression and censorship of information to slant the narrative and push the FEAR. Power… and Money.

From: bigeasygator
14-Sep-21
Nor is there a need for EUA of injections if the disease is not as deadly as they claim it to be… 94% of “Covid deaths” died with it versus the 6% that died from it.

This statement falls somewhere on the spectrum between: "gross misrepresentation" to "patently false."

From: bigeasygator
14-Sep-21
a quote from Dr. Malone that he walked back and admitted was wrong NO HE DIDN'T

LOL!!! Yes, he did. He literally said the following when pressed on his statements regarding Cominarty being some separate vaccine and somehow playing a trick on the public.

“When one is doing rapid analysis on the fly, one does not always get everything right,” he told The Fact Checker. “On this particular legal liability issue I did not hunt down the details myself, and relied on comments from a third party lawyer which were not fully correct.” He said the statements we received from Pfizer and HHS “are consistent with my current understanding.

Here are the statements that Dr. Malone ADMITTED was correct.

From Pfizer: “The statement that the products are ‘legally distinct with certain differences’ refers to the differences in manufacturing information included in the respective regulatory submissions,” said Pfizer spokesperson Sharon J. Castillo in an email. “Specifically, while the products are manufactured using the same processes, they may have been manufactured at different sites or using raw materials from different approved suppliers. FDA closely reviews all manufacturing steps, and has found explicitly that the EUA and BLA [biologics license application] products are equivalent.”

“The liability protections afforded under the PREP Act are tied to the declared public health emergency and not whether the vaccine is sold under an EUA,” Castillo said. “Therefore, both Comirnaty and the Pfizer-BioNTech covid-19 vaccine receive the same liability protections as medical countermeasures against covid-19.”

From the HHS: “There are no liability or compensation differences between a countermeasure approved under an EUA or one that has received full FDA approval,” confirmed an HHS spokesperson."

Again, he was wrong. And he admitted it. Your links and "proof" have been debunked by the very source you are citing. Not sure why you're sticking to this story when "ya boy" Malone admitted it was BS.

a list of the steps required to obtain vaccine approval, all of which were followed by Pfizer/BioNTech NO THEY WEREN'T

Yes, they did. But I'll ask for the third time, what steps were not followed?

opinion pieces published by Russian media outlets AND, NO IT ISN'T.

The lesson here is to not cite unknown sources. I'll help you out with this one..."New Eastern Outlook, NEO, is an English-language website, managed by the Russian Academy of Science’s Institute for Oriental Studies." LOL!!

SO CRAWL BACK IN YOUR HOLE AND BRING SOME LEGITIMATE FACTS AND INFORMATION BECAUSE YOU'RE CLEARLY AN IDIOT.

See above.

From: bigeasygator
14-Sep-21
You really need to stop getting your facts from corrupt Pharmaceutical companies and HHS. They lie every time they open their mouth. First, the liability and compensation differences for EUA and FDA have NOTHING to do with the structure, sequencing and make-up of the "vaccine."

I'm not just listening to pharmaceutical companies or HHS. The FDA has been pretty clear that, as it pertains to "structure, sequencing, and make-up" of the vaccines, these are equivalent products. Straight from the FDA: "Comirnaty has the same formulation as the EUA vaccine and is administered as a series of two doses, three weeks apart." So, again, you're wrong, however you want to slice it.

Suggesting these are two separate vaccines as you are doing and that they are also subject to different legal protections has been debunked on both accounts - they are the same medically speaking, and thanks to the PREP Act, they are subject to the same legal protections. Again, your hero Dr. Malone has admitted to this fact and that he was wrong.

Second, the FDA has conveniently removed the timelines from their online description of the phases of vaccine testing because it clearly showed that there was no way that the vaccines could be tested and receive FDA clearance within a year. Even Fraudci and countless other bureaucrats were saying this all along until they needed to change their narrative. Warpspeed did nothing to change this

Hard to remove something that never existed. There are rules of thumb regarding how long vaccine development takes, but there is nothing set in stone. The FDA may give some timeframes, but they have this to say on clinical trials, "As long as clinical trials are thoughtfully designed, reflect what developers know about a product, safeguard participants, and otherwise meet Federal standards, FDA allows wide latitude in clinical trial design."

Furthermore, Faucci and others were quoting what was typical, not what was capable of being done in a pandemic where there is significant federal help available. Clinical trial phases were combined, allowing for accelerated Phase I, II, and III trials. There was a multitude of case data to assess vaccine efficacy thanks to the pandemic. Lastly, manufacturing capacity was scaled up during the clinical trials because the financial risk was mitigated by federal funding thanks to Operation Warpspeed. These are undisputable FACTS, and it is indeed what allowed for an accelerated timeline of vaccine development and approval. No steps were skipped. Steps that were taken in series were taken in parallel. This is what was done, and this is what Operation Warprspeed helped enable. No steps were skipped, no corners were cut.

Again, you're flat out wrong and you show a fundamental lack of understanding around what the vaccine is, what the approval process is, and what Trump's Operation Warpspeed did to accelerate the timeline.

As far as people like me...I'm not ignorant or corrupt. I'm right.

From: DanaC
14-Sep-21
So Dave, government is corrupt, Big Pharma is corrupt, media is corrupt. So who is *not* corrupt in your mind?

From: Grey Ghost
14-Sep-21
Jason,

I'm often reminded of the words of a smart man when I read these threads. He said, "never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

What's even more disturbing than how people, like Dave, cling to their misinformation is how few people are willing to call them out on it. I don't give a rat's ass what political jersey you wear. But, if you deliberately let misinformation slide just because it's coming from someone on your side of the isle, you are a complete worthless disgrace to me.

Matt

From: Thornton
14-Sep-21
To the guys trying to beat around the bush by blaming a covid death on underlying conditions or past medical history, you can stop now. Those certainly contributed, but I am now seeing bad cases with no underlying conditions or past medical history. Last year's covid was hard on geriatrics, colored ethnicities, and overweight with comorbidities. This year's variety infects with no rhyme or reason. A few weeks ago, I had 4 patients in a row between the ages of 19 and 36 with no PMH. All conspiracy theories and bullshit aside, I would implore all of you to wash your hands frequently and social distance at the very least. We are seeing so many covid patients in Kansas now, they just leave them in the ER waiting room, exposing everyone else. Administration claims once the patient checks in, the hospital is responsible for them and we can no longer send them back to their vehicles until a room is available. Negative pressure rooms were maxed out months ago, so covid patients are placed in regular rooms and even hall beds now. My ER manager in Wichita lost her brother to covid 2 days ago and he was an active guy in his 40's. He lived in Idaho. To you conspiracy guys that doubt me, I'm a Trump supporter, I own more guns than I can remember to count, and I think the virus was released by the Chinese to thin the herd due to their large geriatric population and hence the rescinding of their decades old, one child per family restriction.

From: KSflatlander
15-Sep-21
I don’t think that exchange went quite the way Dave played it out in his head lol.

15-Sep-21
Paying attention to India. Very different than the US for many reasons but they are reporting massive drops in Covid in some states.

From: jjs
15-Sep-21
12 mg of ivermectin has been working very well in the largest population in India , Gateway Pundit for information.

From: KSflatlander
15-Sep-21

KSflatlander's Link
Gateway Pundit for medical information? Any information for that matter lol. Why not look at and post a paper from a peer-reviewed medical journal?

From: Bowaddict
15-Sep-21
You guys on the hard left do realize that this drug won a Nobel prize for its use in humans right? It’s a piece of the puzzle that has some early signs of success, much like another well known drug used to battle this that was ridiculed by the left early on! It’s not all the vaccines or nothing, that has been the big problem IMHO from early on! And much of it due to politics and lining the pockets of bureaucrats!!

From: Bowaddict
15-Sep-21
If you have a hard time finding info like that, try using a search engine that doesn’t censor and manipulate such info. You’re big boys and girls, you can handle what you find, and obviously so smart you don’t have to worry about being fooled by opinion based articles. You’ll figure it out!! Try duck duck go and Ditch google!! They don’t censor or manipulate searches, could be scary for you though . All the opposing ideas and discussions you’ll find!

From: KSflatlander
15-Sep-21
I can’t speak for everyone but I hope that ivermectin is a viable treatment for COVID. We need all options to fight this virus. The CDC and FDA are currently conducting scientific studies/medical trials to determine if it works. I hope it does but until there is medical proof (and not just anecdotal statements) it’s not proven viable.

By the way, the Nobel prize was not for treatment of COVID.

I think Mike in CT said something about ivermectin preventing virus replication but you have to take it early in the infection. Earlier than you have symptoms. And that it might not be effective after symptoms and that’s the issue? Maybe Mike will jump in here.

From: spike78
15-Sep-21
I don’t think the government wants any elderly people to survive except for themselves. They gotta fix the Social Security system somehow and what better way to do it!

From: Thornton
15-Sep-21
I've had a hard time following this thread, but Dave has some valid points. I took Ivermectin after I got covid and I was well in a day and a half. My fellow colleagues made fun of me, then some of them took it with the same results after they were infected. Kerp in mind, we treat covid patients daily now. I was actually told about the ivermectin study by an ER physician I work with, and he indicated it looked promising. In ER, we use UpToDate for our medical references and they recently had a podcast detailing the positive outcomes from early administration of ivermectin. The Journal of Therapeutics also has an article showing an over 40% decrease in death from covid with early administration of ivermectin.

From: bigeasygator
16-Sep-21
I've had a hard time following this thread, but Dave has some valid points

Dave also thinks Cominarty and the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine are separate drugs, so…

From: spike78
16-Sep-21
Thornton has some proof Ivermectin works but the Libs on here will keep bashing it. Thornton is the Ivermectin for horses the same stuff just way higher dose?

From: Huntiam
16-Sep-21
Shew it’s deer season guys damn..some of y’all no more aboit Covid than Bowhunting maybe you should ready a different thread… it’s here to stay get over it under it around it whatever … bunch of girls arguing back and fourth the same problem our country has going on here…ever thread aboit Corona should be deleted .. this is bow Hunter and bow Hunter showcase or it used to be damn guys

From: LINK
16-Sep-21
Spike I think it’s the same active ingredient. Everything I’ve seen talks about the 1% injectable. That’s what my brother used and several guys in town think saved their lives after remdezevere did nothing. 3/4 cc per 100# in a glass of water. You won’t taste it. Can’t say the same for the horse paste on a cracker.

From: spike78
16-Sep-21
Link, stop talking that non sense about it saving lives. Everything I hear on the news says Ivermectin doesn’t work and should not be used :). In fact, what you don’t hear is what actually might work. Oh my bad they do push the vaccine my apologies.

From: RK
16-Sep-21
Link

My friends that used it did 1cc per hundred pounds, zinc, vit. D, Zpac , B12 and a steroid. Recovery was very fast. I only know about 9 people that did that but it worked for them. Probably need to expand the sample group :)

16-Sep-21
some people didn't trust the vaccine because it wasn't sufficiently tested and it wasn't fda approved. some of the same people dont seem to have much of an issue using a drug that hasn't been sufficiently tested or approved by the fda to treat covid.

am i getting that right?

From: chillkill
16-Sep-21
Of course ivomectin works, just look at india and the results they have been getting.. Also data around zinc and the death rates for people with low levels.. This whole covid pandemic has been hijacked by politicians world wide, all allegedly, democratic countries by the way.. If your vaccine is so good why is it losing its potency against covid, as well as more and more breakthrough cases world wide.. Look at Israel and whats happening..

From: spike78
16-Sep-21
I read a funny news article yesterday. It stated that the vaccinated in the hospitals with Covid were mostly a symptomatic or had a very mild case. Ummm why would they be in the hospital?

From: Thornton
17-Sep-21
Spike78- I have no idea. I used the livestock Ivermax on myself. I have yet to even see it in Pyxis in either ER that I work, I have yet to give it to a single patient.

From: TGbow
17-Sep-21
Jason, I appreciate people like you in the healthcare field. You seem to be after the facts where ever that may lead. Most of us just wish the CDC and Fauci would do the same. Thank you

From: Treeline
18-Sep-21

Treeline's Link
Interesting article that indicates it to be very effective in India.

If there is an effective treatment, the Emergency Use Authorization for the injections will no longer be valid.

There appears to be a number of safe, effective prophylactics and treatments including vitamins, ivermectin, HCQ, and monoclonal antibody treatments. All being suppressed by the MSM and social media. Hell, have heard that pharmacists have refused to fill doctor’s prescriptions for ivermectin and HCQ even when they have it.

The current administration has, in the last week, precluded distribution of monoclonal antibody drugs for treatment to Red States like Texas and Florida where they have been used for treatment of both vaxed and un-vaxed.

The injections are getting pushed for reasons that do not pertain to any individual’s or group’s health…

From: Grey Ghost
18-Sep-21
"If there is an effective treatment, the Emergency Use Authorization for the injections will no longer be valid."

Tavis, can you show your source for this information? Thanks.

Matt

From: Treeline
18-Sep-21

Treeline's Link
BEG,

From your above statement:

“This statement falls somewhere on the spectrum between: "gross misrepresentation" to "patently false."”

The CDC provided the data. From their own report:

“For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.9 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. Values in the table represent number of deaths that mention the condition listed and 94% of deaths mention more than one condition.”

Is this source of data on Covid wrong?

18-Sep-21
The prescription I finally was able to get filled for ivermectin at a local pharmacy was for 3mg tablets. Without insurance it was $141/25 tablets. With insurance it was $10. My recommended dose was 5 tablets per day.

From: Treeline
18-Sep-21
It is a lot cheaper at the feed store and is the same stuff, Eagle_eye_Andy. Easiest is the injectable and just mix the right dosage in water. The horse apple flavored paste works too, but tastes bitter.

From: Treeline
18-Sep-21

Treeline's Link
GG:

From the FDA "Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines Explained"

"Under an EUA, FDA may allow the use of unapproved medical products, or unapproved uses of approved medical products in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions when certain statutory criteria have been met, including that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives."

That last part is important about no adequate, approved and available alternatives.

It appears that there are a number of adequate and available alternatives. The FDA has not approved them. Think it might be about money?

Many doctor's accounts and medical papers stating that there are alternative safe and effective preventative and treatment measures.

The mRNA injections have, thus far, proven to be ineffective in preventing people from catching, transmitting, being hospitalized, or dying of Covid. There have been more deaths reported from these injections than for all other vaccines since 1990. Over 675,600 adverse effects reported in the US to the VAERS system run by the CDC. And, based on a Harvard study, "Electronic Support for Public Health-Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System", less than 0.3% of all adverse drug events and 1-13% of serious events are reported to VAERS.

From: Treeline
18-Sep-21

Treeline's embedded Photo
Treeline's embedded Photo

From: bigeasygator
18-Sep-21
Is this source of data on Covid wrong?

No, the data is correct. Concluding from the data that people died “with” COVID and not “from” COVID is what is somewhere between grossly misrepresented to flat out false. The reality is had these people not caught COVID, they wouldn’t have died when they did. That is why COVID is listed as what killed them.

From: bigeasygator
18-Sep-21
Let's assume you are correct in that the FDA did indeed approve Cominarty and that it is one and the same as the EUA(and that remains to be proven), your lies about timelines never existing is a complete and utter lie and just proves your ignorance regarding medicine and pharmaceuticals.

There is no need to assume anything. I am correct.

While there may not be an "exact" timeline in the sense of months, years days etc for when a trail phase is complete, there are parameters which were not followed even closely with regards to the current vaccine testing…Anyone with half a brain could read this and look at the phases of vaccine approval and research and see there's no possible way these parameters and phases were followed.

I’ve asked you five times now to tell what parameters have not been followed. All of the clinical trial information associated with Comirnaty approval is publicly available, as is information on the broader approval timeline. You keep saying steps weren’t followed but have failed five times now to enumerate a single requirement that were skipped or single instance in which a corner was cut.

The parameters were followed. The information is out there. Case closed.

Ivermectin, HCQ and other therapeutics have been PROVEN effective at treating COVID and yet they are being denied by corrupt hospitals and the FDA for none other than corrupt and sinister reasons.

This statement here might just take the cake for the funniest of all your points. Outside of poorly designed studies and anecdotal information, there is no proof regarding ivermectin, HCQ, etc being effective in treating COVID. Clinical trials are underway for ivermectin, but are not complete. So, unlike say Comirnaty which has been tested for effectiveness for COVID and approved as such by the FDA, any “proof” of ivermectin’s effectiveness has not been validated by robust clinical trials and is akin to old wives’ tales at this stage.

Like Matt said earlier, I should be careful when engaging with idiots as outsiders may struggle to tell the difference. You’ve had ample time to provide proof to back up your wildly incorrect assertions. You haven’t. Engaging with you further is not worth the time.

18-Sep-21
What has happened is when the governments signed an aggreement with big pharma for the covid vaccine big pharma said if u find a cheap cure for covid u can not use it which makes scents why there muzzled on it ,this was on day star tv interviewing 2000 strong front line doctors and scientists. When people test positive for covid the send them home tell them come back when your really sick by the time they go back to the hospital they have phnemonia and it’s to late for ventilater for most. Follow the money trail evil at its best.

18-Sep-21
Alexis ^^^ Exactly right. The “confidential” contracts that have been leaked prove this.

From: TGbow
18-Sep-21
we can trust big government though, especially Democrats...right

18-Sep-21
Alexis ^^^ Exactly right. The “confidential” contracts that have been leaked prove this.

19-Sep-21
"What has happened is when the governments signed an aggreement with big pharma for the covid vaccine big pharma said if u find a cheap cure for covid u can not use it which makes scents..."

...and the "scents" that it makes is that of pure horse manure.

From: Treeline
19-Sep-21

Treeline's Link
Project Veritas is doing a big one:

Covidvaxexposed.com

Could be interesting….

From: DanaC
19-Sep-21
Project Veritas? Now there's an example of objective reporting. (Irony.) And a fine history of doctored videos and other BS misinformation.

Honestly, you'd be better off just putting another bumper sticker on your Subaru. ;-)

From: bigeasygator
19-Sep-21
As is typical for most libtard morons, you come on here and make claims without a shred of credible evidence to support your claims

That’s rich. I’ve asked you multiple times to layout what parameters were not followed. You haven’t. I told you all of the Pfizer approval information is out there publicly available for BNT162b2, the vaccine now known as Comirnaty, but not surprisingly you won’t speak to it.

IND Application

https://cdn.pfizer.com/pfizercom/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf

Phase I preliminary results upon which Phase II/III was informed . Further clinical trial details available as well at the link.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-share-positive-early-data-lead-mrna

Phase II/III results which were the basis of both EUA and full FDA approval.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-confirm-high-efficacy-and-no-serious

Summary basis for regulatory action upon which FDA full approval was granted, which includes summary of the above clinical trial phases.

https://www.fda.gov/media/151733/download

All steps complete, all required parameters met. You are confusing vaccine approval during normal time periods with what can happen during a pandemic whereby there are significant more cases available to test the safety and efficacy of these vaccines. This leads to a much faster assessment process as loads more data is available on a much faster timeline.

I should apologize for pushing you on providing proof that these steps weren’t followed. That is impossible to do because that proof doesn’t exist. I thought maybe you’d take the chance, like your buddy Dr. Malone, to admit you’re wrong. I see I gave you too much credit.

From: bigeasygator
20-Sep-21
If you had half a brain and didn't work for Pfizer and weren't corrupt, you'd acknowledge that these phases of testing could not and WOULD not have ever passed and been approved knowing the amount of DOCUMENTED adverse reactions. Seriously??? Your idea of "proof" is the documents published by corrupt Pfizer??? That paper is GARBAGE and not worth the tree that was killed to print it.

My proof is the clinical trials conducted on tens of thousands of people, followed by the literal billions of people now being monitored as part of the vaccine rollout. It's all there in the documents. Your argument seems to be "Pfizer is lying" or "Pfizer is making up data," which again you've provided no proof to back-up (beyond unconfirmed, unsubstantiated wives' tales from questionable sources).

Do tell us how no other vaccine has ever been approved in less than 4 yrs and yet somehow this one is approved in less than 1. There is NO WAY that the parameters meeting testing can be adequately completed in less than a yr. How do you possibly evaluate for birth defects, effects on pregnancy, long-term effects not readily identifiable in less than a yr of testing? Simple. YOU CAN'T!!!

I told you, but you're too dense to comprehend. You can throw typical timelines out of the window for COVID vaccine development. Development typically takes so long because you need to ensure you have a robust data set to evaluate the efficacy and safety of a vaccine. When you are in the midst of a global pandemic with literally 100s of millions of cases occurring a year, it's A LOT easier to generate the appropriate dataset to do so. This can't be done outside of the context of a global pandemic and it's one of the main reasons they can evaluate the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine so rapidly

As for testing for long term effects, it isn't necessary for a vaccine that leaves your system in 72 hours. What remains is the antibodies, not the vaccine. Long term effects result from long term drug usage. Use smoking as an example - the risk of lung disease, etc comes from smoking cigarettes day-in, day-out for a long period of time. If you smoke a cigarette and then smoke a second cigarette a month later, you don't have to worry about contracting lung disease 50 years from now.

Worrying about long term side effects from a vaccine taken a few times over the span of months shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how medicine and our bodies work.

Why Cominarty and BionTech are likely not one and the same

Again, BioNTech is a company, not a drug. Beyond that, that link shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the vaccines being developed as well as how the clinical trials have progressed (which, again, is all contained within the links I posted). Multiple versions of the BNT162 mRNA vaccine were developed. BNT162b1 encodes a trimerized, secreted version of the SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein, whereas BNT162b2, encodes a prefusion stabilized, full-length SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. The version carried into Phase III trials was BNT162b2, which involved ~44,000 participants. This is what is now known as Comirnaty. The link you posted on this is an absolute joke. There is no secret there were multiple versions of BNT162; no, clinical trial data was not cherry-picked; and the appropriate regulatory requirements and thresholds were met for full approval of BNT162b2 (aka, Comirnaty).

For those keeping track, I've produced at least 10 links to truthful, factual, and VERIFIABLE information proving what a lying imbecile BEG is

Well, when those links include vaccine development steps that were met, clearly false statements from so called experts who later admit they were wrong, and flawed and biased arguments coming from joke sources like "Silview Media" and random posters on "Clouthub" it doesn't really help your case. It's definitely verifiable information - verifiably false.

From: Kannuck
20-Sep-21
Dave,

I would love to hear your credentials.

Aside from "Flat-Earther"

From: bigeasygator
20-Sep-21
Dave, I would love to hear your credentials.

Aside from "Flat-Earther"

Seeing some of the sources he cites and links he posts, this makes a lot of sense.

From: Grasshopper
20-Sep-21

Grasshopper's embedded Photo
Grasshopper's embedded Photo
I was going through things the other day due to an upcoming move and came across these gems.

Taking offers, will consider trades for moose or brown bear hunt. I know what I've got, low balls will be ignored. Beef or liver flavor.

From: bigeasygator
20-Sep-21
I'll gladly give my credentials once BEG gives his. I can virtually guarantee I'm more qualified to provide information on these topics than azz-clown BEG

Based on the information you're posting and your interpretation of it, that is beyond highly suspect.

The sources I cite are none other than FDA, qualified medical professionals and verifiable facts...BEG on the other hand hasn't presented a single credible source of fact or information to support his lies

LOL...that's hilarious. I literally post links directly to the FDA as well as the data being submitted to the FDA which you say is "corrupt" and "lies."

The sources you've cited include "Silviu Costinescu" whose bio reads "Jack of all trades in arts and media" and Steve Kirsch, whose medical bonafides include "the optical mouse, Internet search, desktop publishing, spam filtering, Internet acceleration, secure federated identity, open banking, and digital money." Are these those "FDA, qualified medical professionals" (whatever that even means) you speak of?

The BionTech vaccine is indeed the EUA vaccine that is being touted as one and the same as Cominarty. While Biontech might be the company associated with Pfizer, the EUA vaccine is indeed referred to as the BionTech vaccine

Jesus, I'm not really sure what is so hard for you to understand.

There were always multiple variants of the mRNA vaccine on the table as part of preclinical trials. As outlined in the Investigational New Drug Application to the FDA from Pfizer (on behalf of the companies Pfizer and BioNTech), Phase 1 involved more than one of these variants (four to be precise - BNT162a1, BNT162b1, BNT162b2, and BNT162c2) and was intended to identify the preferred vaccine candidate(s) and dose level. Based on those results, one candidate was chosen for Phase 2/3 testing. BNT162b2. Now Cominarty.

The EUA covers BNT162b2. https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-submit-emergency-use-authorization

November 20, 2020: Pfizer Inc. (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) announced they will submit a request today to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) of their mRNA vaccine candidate, BNT162b2 against SARS-CoV-2, which will potentially enable use of the vaccine in high-risk populations in the U.S. by the middle to end of December 2020.

It is not named the "BionTech vaccine" anywhere.

The established name and other names listed in the EUA is "Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine/ BNT162b2." It is called one of those two names everywhere it is referenced in the EUA, which can be viewed here https://www.fda.gov/media/144416/download

Comirnaty is BNT162b2. It's the vaccine that was granted EUA. It's the vaccine that was granted full approval.

Anybody "guarantee[ing]" they are "more qualified" than me to provide info on these topics should understand these basic facts, which Dave clearly doesn't. Furthermore, anybody like Dave that is saying the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid Vaccine and Comirnaty are something different or that someone is trying to pull the wool over our eyes based on the names being used and variants being tested is either (1) blatantly lying or (2) doesn't understand what is going on. This is really not that hard.

People who are open-minded and want the truth and facts can easily see it for themselves

I guess we'll put you in the "close-minded" camp then, Dave.

From: Treeline
20-Sep-21

Treeline's Link
Interesting article about success in India using ivermectin.

20-Sep-21
Yes very interesting indeed. Trust the science.... of other countries who actually want to save lives. Stay Safe !

From: bigeasygator
20-Sep-21

bigeasygator's Link
Yes very interesting indeed. Trust the science.... of other countries who actually want to save lives

This quote, from the linked article above (which is a solid overview on the status of Ivermectin as a COVID treatment from an Australian newspaper), speaks to the “science” in the article Treeline posted.

As Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz, an epidemiologist from the University of Wollongong, put it: "Merely correlating news reports of Ivermectin use with later declines in mortality as if those two things are realistically connected; it's not science in any meaningful sense."

There is literally zero tracking of how many people actually took Ivermectin in Uttar Pradesh, so there is no statistically meaningful way to attribute any success to the drug. Until the results of well designed, robust clinical trials come in (which are discussed in the linked article), everything else is akin to hearsay and speculation and, for now, inconclusive as to the benefits of Ivermectin on COVID-19.

From: Thornton
21-Sep-21

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Dave, here's the guy you're arguing with...

From: Matt
21-Sep-21

Matt's Link
From Treeline's article pimping Ivermectin:

"The Turnaround On May 30, TrialSite reported an “unprecedented turnaround in Uttar Pradesh” was indeed a reality marked by a “dramatic decline in cases.” TrialSite suggested to world health leaders it was “time to smell the coffee.”"

From the linked article: "The UP government decided to grant relaxations on Saturday to the Covid curfew in Bareilly and Bulandshahr from June 7. Amid a drop in cases, UP started the unlocking process on June 1 after several weeks of restrictions amid the second wave."

Even though Uttar Pradesh was under a curfew/lock-down for a few weeks in May leading into June, it was probably the Ivermectin.

The guy just never lets being totally wrong get in the way. The sheeple misinformation train is nearly unstoppable.

From: bigeasygator
21-Sep-21

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
Oh man! Ya got me Thornton!

Not sure how long it took Thornton to come across that photo, but for anyone that wants to see more from that Halloween, I went as a mounted deer and my wife went as a hunter.

Funny enough, I also turned that foam deer head from that costume into a decoy that I used on Kodiak and later painted it as a pronghorn to use on an antelope hunt in New Mexico. Got some miles out of that thing!

Thornton, you must have a lot of time on your hands to scour the Internet for pictures of complete strangers, but I guess when you have no other meaningful counterpoints this is what you must resort to. Wanna go ahead and clarify what your point was with your last post?

For everyone else, let it be known that just because I have an actual life and like to do things like get dressed up in costume during Halloween with my wife, it doesn’t make any of the actual facts I’ve posted untrue.

From: chillkill
21-Sep-21
Who actually funds the FDA.. Wouldn't be pfiser and cohorts by any chance.. Russell brand has an interesting podcast about the FDA and the pharmaceutical companies, running it.. It doesn't say much good about any of this structure.. This is from an article written by science magazine. And they don't deny its content..

From: Grey Ghost
21-Sep-21
Good grief, Jason, I didn't realize your wife is a super model. What the heck does she see in you? ;-)

It's actually kinda creepy that Thornton would go out of his way to search for and post a picture of you.

Matt

From: DanaC
21-Sep-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
" It's actually kinda creepy that Thornton would go out of his way to search for and post a picture of you. "

yeah, I'll just save him the aggravation ;-)

From: bigeasygator
21-Sep-21

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
Good grief, Jason, I didn't realize your wife is a super model. What the heck does she see in you? ;-)

It's clearly my looks and bowhunting skills, Matt :)

It's actually kinda creepy that Thornton would go out of his way to search for and post a picture of you.

That photo was from a post my wife made on my Facebook page for my birthday over three years ago. You'd think Thornton would have had the decency to include her caption but I guess that might have gone against his narrative. It is mega creepy, but beyond being telling of Thornton's character, it's also telling that this is apparently the best he's got in terms of rebutting anything I said.

Thornton, anything else you found out on my Facebook page you wanna share with the group, you little stalker you?

From: DanaC
21-Sep-21
BEG, you rock that look, clearly you're a man of refined sartorial taste ;-)

From: Grey Ghost
21-Sep-21
"It's clearly my looks and bowhunting skills, Matt :)

LOL! I asked that same question to a quick-witted buddy, when I met his wife the first time. Without hesitation he answered, "big feet". ;-)

Matt

21-Sep-21
now you know why the cf no longer exists. creepy, weird, stalking behavior.

From: CW
21-Sep-21
You guys might want to get checked out. I heard developing animal characteristics might be a side affect to the bat virus vaccine.

From: DanaC
21-Sep-21
;-)

From: Treeline
22-Sep-21

Treeline's Link
This also provides excellent scientific data and results to support ivermectin’s use.

From: Coyote 65
24-Sep-21
NIH STUDY CONCLUDES IVERMECTIN WORKS! QUOTE: Because we’ve come to expect nothing but cover-ups and anti-science diktats from NIH and its subdivisions, NIH has published on its website and article in the July-August issue of the American Journal of Therapeutics that concluded that “large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin.” The study authors continued, “Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally.”

Terry

From: TreeWalker
24-Sep-21
Need a link where NIH declares Ivermectin anything more than a really good regimen for killing parasites which is not what Covid is. Joe Rogan did not merely take Ivermectin and the monoclonal dose he also took has been shown to be effective. But, monoclonal is made by big pharma and carries the emergency use tag so if you are still doing your research please do not accept the monoclonal so someone else gets that dose. No need to be a hypocrite just because you are in the ICU. https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

From: DanaC
24-Sep-21
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_Line_COVID-19_Critical_Care_Alliance

From: spike78
24-Sep-21
A few Bowsiters said that Ivermectin doesn’t work so it MUST be true ha!

From: TGbow
24-Sep-21
Well, we have one here on this site in the healthcare profession that used it and he had positive results.

From: bigeasygator
24-Sep-21
TreeWalker gets it too.

From: bigeasygator
24-Sep-21
Well, we have one here on this site in the healthcare profession that used it and he had positive results.

And there are a lot of people who take nothing and have positive results. One person’s story in the absence of a properly controlled clinical study is just that - a story, and nothing more.

From: DanaC
25-Sep-21
BEG, you're trying to explain the mis-use of 'anecdotal evidence' to people who want to believe in it.

From: Matt
25-Sep-21
I do wonder why some people are so invested in a miracle cure for a virus they are on record as saying has a 99.97% survival rate?

From: Thornton
25-Sep-21
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

Pretty sure that is the article of ivermectin on covid from the Journal of Therapeutics. If not, someone with a computer should be able to find it. Keep in mind, I took the drug a year and a half ago after an ER physician I work with suggested I look at the study that was showing it worked in mice and petri dishes. This article came out later. Several ER RNs I work with, one of which has chased the covid pay all over the country in covid ICUs, have taken ivermectin for positive covid infections. For those of you thinking that an anti parasitic med can't work, keep in mind, many medications have multiple uses. Ivermectin has been shown to have antiviral properties. We give dozens of medications for completely different things. I give morphine in ER for pain, I also give it to reduce pre load on a heart, thus reducing the demand of oxygen on the heart. I give IV benadryl for anaphylaxis and I also give it for migraine headaches. Ketamine is known as a "horse tranquilizer". It is actually a dissociative agent we give for sedation or combative patients. It also works for pain. Pepcid helps with acid reflux, but we often give it for anaphylaxis or rashes due to its H2 histamine blocking properties. Doxycycline is a strong antibiotic often used for tick borne or pulmonary infections and it also has antinflammatory properties just like steroids. Just a few of the meds we give and their multiple uses. I'm not saying ivermectin would work for everyone, but it is documented that it has worked for some. Just like bp and heart meds dont work for everyone, and different types and dosages have to be tried until the desired outcome is achieved.

From: spike78
25-Sep-21
Thornton your talking on deaf ears these guys believe the CDC and the feds more then your actual usage results.

From: TGbow
25-Sep-21
Jason, i think you are probabaly wasting your time explaining your experience.

Im no doctor so I dont know the answer...yes, its true people can have positive results and it may not necessarily be attributed to Ivermectin. But, to ignore the doctors and all those, like Jason, that have had positive results its ignorant.

I think the people in the labs are trustworthy for the most part and are doing the best they can to help develope positive drugs to help people.

But, the problem a lot of people have, including myself is we dont trust Fauci. Im sure there are good people in the CDC but overall I dont trust the leadership of the CDC.

There is no denying there is a LOT of money involved in this scenario.

From: bigeasygator
25-Sep-21
Here’s a quote from the article Dave just posted.

On August 23, the FDA issued two separate letters for two separate injections. There are now two legally distinct (Pfizer vs. BioNTech), but otherwise identical products.

Super credible and super well researched, seeing as they - like you - seem to think Pfizer and BioNTech are two different vaccines. LOL.

For like the thousandth time, there is only one vaccine - it was called BNT162b2 prior to full approval, now it is called Comirnaty. It is made by a partnership of Pfizer AND BioNTech. There is no Pfizer vs. BioNTech or Pfizer or BioNTech.

Dave, just stop. You’re embarrassing yourself.

From: KSflatlander
25-Sep-21

From: Swampbuck
25-Sep-21
Can we just call it the flu finally, it’s all SARS people, I’ve tested positive twice, no shots yet cause my antibodies are good, cry all you want , if you are unhealthy you croke, one why or another. The minute you’re born you’re one step closer to death. Live your life to it’s fullest no matter what anyone says, because today could be your last!!!! Now go hunt!!

From: DanaC
25-Sep-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo

From: TGbow
25-Sep-21
The leftist claim to be tolerant..as long as you agree with them.

Vaccine or no vaccine, do what you want. Covid is real but so is freedom. Vaccines have saved a lot of lives, cant argue that. For me, I dont trust Fauci but that doesnt make me a conspiracy nut. Hell, I dont trust the vast majority of politicians in DC on either side. Rand Paul is holding Fauci's feet to the fire..at least somebody up there has a pair

From: TGbow
25-Sep-21

TGbow's embedded Photo
TGbow's embedded Photo
Something to ponder on

From: Zbone
25-Sep-21
That's funny right there TGbow, but true...

From: txhunter58
25-Sep-21
Sorry Dave, but you do know that not everything posted on websites is true right???Whether it’s the government or the group you tout:

https://www.desmog.com/principia-scientific-international/#:~:text=Principia%20Scientific%20International%20%28%20PSI%29%20is%20an%20organisation,Dragon%3A%20Death%20of%20the%20Greenhouse%20Gas%20Theory.%20%5B1%5D

This group has an agenda and it isn’t science based. Pseudoscience at best. You can drink their cool aid if you want, but you are just kidding yourself. You believe what they say because you want to believe it. And that is your right!

From: Thornton
26-Sep-21

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo

From: Thornton
26-Sep-21
Another local healthy, hardworking 40 some year old died today that was a classmate of my friend. I looked him up on social media and multiple friends were urging him to take ivermectin, which I do not think he did judging by his responses. He was infected for the most of September before dying.

From: bigeasygator
26-Sep-21

bigeasygator's Link
I’d provide another point by point rebuttal, but I’m seeing it’s not worth engaging you, Dave. Everything you’ve posted above is either misinformation or a misunderstanding on your part.

Here’s one example. You can click on the link above and look at all of the meeting material for the VRBPAC. You can see agendas, presentations, meeting minutes, links to the areas that would allow public comments, and links to a literal video recording of these meetings you said never happened on YouTube. There were meetings for all of the EUAs. So, for like the millionth time, you’re wrong.

All of your other points are similarly false and can be easily debunked as well, if they haven’t already been. So, again, either you’re unwilling to educate yourself, you get a kick out of lying, or you’re crazy.

From: Huntiam
26-Sep-21
Thornton I believe you just turned into the creepy stalker guy on bowsite..get a life dood, bet u are a ball to hang out with

From: KSflatlander
26-Sep-21

From: Thornton
26-Sep-21
It took less than 1 minute to find screenshot that photo. When you're on social media and you make photos public or paste your face on an entire outfitter's sale bill, I'd say you want people to see it. I hire for my business, and I'm on a peer review panel for new hires. You can figure out a lot about someone's qualifications by a quick shift through their social media.

From: bigeasygator
26-Sep-21
What else did you find about my “qualifications,” Thornton? You know those are available on my LinkedIn, which is also public. Instead of posting anything relevant to them, why’d you post a three year old picture that you cherry picked off my social media?

As a “health professional,” I would expect you to know what Dave is posting is complete BS. Instead, you decide to post a picture that, I can only assume, you think makes me look like an idiot.

The whole episode is pretty telling of your character - it’s juvenile, it’s nonintellectual, and like plenty have said here, it’s creepy.

From: Grey Ghost
27-Sep-21
I have to ask, why hasn't anyone except BEG and myself called out Dave's misinformation? Surely some of you know he's spreading garbage. Are you afraid of his childish name calling? Is it because you don't want to be lumped into the dreaded Bowsite "libtard" group? You can still root for your political team, while keeping your teammates honest.

Show some dignity, people, and let's stop the charade.

Matt

From: bigeasygator
27-Sep-21
It’s particularly disheartening as none of the clearly false conspiracy theories Dave is peddling - Comirnaty and BNT162b2 are “different,” the FDA didn’t follow its own processes, it is impossible to test vaccines for safety and efficacy this quickly - have nothing to do with politics.

With that said, it’s not surprising. It’s telling that no one is backing up Dave’s misinformation, a clear sign that no one wants to be associated with him (well, except for our neighborhood creeper). As they say, the silence is deafening.

From: Treeline
27-Sep-21
Maybe Dave’s right?

Just no need to keep arguing with fence posts…

From: bigeasygator
27-Sep-21
This is Dave’s reality:

Dave: this meeting never happened!

Me: *literally posts links to a video of said meeting*

Dave: “ None of my points have been debunked other than in your own delusional world. Notice how he once again evades the questions and tries to shift the topic, claiming that they can easily be "debunked" but yet he can't do it.”

Did someone put you up to this, Dave. Is this all a joke? Where are the cameras?? You got me!!

From: bigeasygator
27-Sep-21
Third, in just another example of the fraud and corruption of the FDA, a meeting of the VRBPAC was supposed to take place before any of the vaccines were granted EUA approval. This is the standard for the approval process and allows the public and health experts to voice any concerns and also PUBLICLY DISCLOSES ALL VITAL SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION about the "vaccine" including adverse events, etc. This NEVER HAPPENED.

This is EXACTLY the meeting I posted links to, which includes video of the entire meeting. Per the links I posted,

On December 10, 2020, the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research’s (CBER), Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC) will meet in open session to discuss Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for the prevention of COVID-19 in individuals 16 years of age and older.

There is a similar meeting for every vaccine granted EUA approval.

This is a microcosm of every engagement with you, Dave. Every one of your similarly clearly false points have been refuted. But you choose to either (1) not educate yourself, (2) do not have the capacity to understand what you are reading, or (3) do know you are peddling complete BS and choose to do so anyway. Whichever one it is, it’s definitely one of those three and it’s not worth my time anymore. And I never said I was a healthcare professional.

From: bigeasygator
27-Sep-21
Maybe Dave’s right?

He’s not, but the second least surprising thing (beyond everyone else’s silence on this thread) is the fact that you would think so. My guess is Dave’s PM approval is just the two of you going back and forth.

From: KSflatlander
27-Sep-21
BEG/GG- I never jumped in here because:

1. BEG was doing a fine job responding with facts and evidence to back it up. BEG is always well informed and has well thought out posts...always. 2. Dave's response is to scream and name call...a clear sign he knows he is full of BS. 3. When Dave said it's the vaccinated spreading the virus or that the COVID vaccine is not a vaccine...that told me everything I need to know about Dave.

BEG is right. Either Dave doesn't know what he is talking about and doesn't care or he is a right wing nut regurgitator, or he is a right wing nut troll. Dave should be embarrassed.

In regards to creeper McCreepy Thornton. He tries to make it sound like he is a real medical scientist or doctor. They guy has a 2 year degree from a community college and passed the RN boards. He does not direct patient care, prescribe meds, or provide any medical advice to patients. Why? Because he is a medical technician. Anyone with a 4 year degree in biology from any state college would have more science, chemistry, and microbiology than Thorton. He has admittedly taken animal ivermectin on a public forum. Think about that. You just can't fix stupid.

It would be nice if Mike in CT would come here and weigh in. But I'm sure he is tired of repeating himself over and over and over.

Science...because it is better than making [email protected]#t up. Dave is making [email protected]#t up or passing made up [email protected]#t from others. Thorton is good at that too.

Ivermectin is being studied by the FDA as we speak. Good. Let the scientists tell us if it works for Covid. How ironic is it that Dave is pushing ivermectin (not sure why) that has not been approved by the FDA for COVID but won't take the COVID vaccine because he thinks it is "not approved" by the FDA. Its ironic and crazy all at the same time.

From: bigeasygator
27-Sep-21
Spot on, KS. And it would be nice if Mike - who has an advanced degree in microbiology - would chime in and put some of this stuff further to bed, but he's done so previously and unlike me he probably recognizes that you can't fix stupid and doesn't want to waste the time. I have a pretty good idea what he would say if he did weigh in on this thread, though, as he's a respected source of information for me.

27-Sep-21
Dave -" I can virtually guarantee I'm more qualified to provide information on these topics than azz-clown BEG. "

"You're just a typical ignorant libtard fraud who is incapable of providing anything of substance other than the propaganda that your party and the corrupt media spew out. You have NO CREDENTIALS OR INTEGRITY. You're just another internet f-ing expert who, in reality, knows NOTHING! "

I've stayed away from this because it's pointless to try to have a civil, reasonable discussion with anyone that is so firmly entrenched that they ignore reality. But I will say that if you aren't a virologist or epidemiologist with multiple years of work in the field your opinion is meaningless to me. If you are a physician with multiple years of experience in treating infectious diseases, I would listen to your opinion to see if it aligns with what other experts say. If you are a nurse or someone the medical field your anecdotal information would be interesting but not worth much more than a good story.

And if you are an internet expert that has no background in medicine or direct patient care and you disagree with the opinion of the majority of experts (for those of you in Rio Linda California, that means a preponderance of scientists' opinions, not just the one, two or three that right wing media can dredge up) you are either easily mislead or politically motivated. And, in either case, you are just wrong.

From: TGbow
27-Sep-21
Oh yea..the leftist media are very reiiable. Right

From: TGbow
27-Sep-21
Fauci is a dr and he is also incompetent fool

27-Sep-21
See TGbow, you are a prime example of what I mentioned above so I'll use you as an example. I never said a word about "leftist media" being right. And the only reason you believe Fauci is a fool is because you have bought into the right wing propaganda.

So, while you are welcomed to your opinion, it's not informed, it sounds politically motivated and it means nothing to me. But I'm sure there are others here that share your opinion and will chime in and maybe even start calling me names.

From: KSflatlander
27-Sep-21
"Oh yea..the leftist media are very reiiable. Right"

No they are not. Peer reviewed medical journals and proper controlled medical testing are.

"Fauci is a dr and he is also incompetent fool"

He knows a hell of a lot more about medicine, diseases, and virus than anyone on this site. Besides, just like Phil said...who cares what one doctor thinks. Look at the medical or scientific consensus. If 9 out of 10 doctors recommend a medical procedure to you it's probably a bad idea to go with the outlier...just saying.

Dave should be back any second to call us all ignorant libtard sheep...incapable of self reflection and analysis.

From: txhunter58
27-Sep-21
Thx Dave for letting us know your websites are credible and all opposing view sites are bogus.

But as proved by the Covid vaccine thread, you can’t convince conspiracy theory people of anything using facts. So those that try are wasting their time.

As to the actual subject of this thread, I hope we get some credible research studies on ivermectin in the near future. Until then, as a veterinarian who has looked at the data so far, I will be using ivermectin if I ever catch Covid.

From: drycreek
27-Sep-21

drycreek's embedded Photo
drycreek's embedded Photo

From: TGbow
27-Sep-21
Phil, you mentioned the "right wing media". I actually agree with you asbfar as a lot of the crap thats being spouted out there..I dont buy into anything just because it comes from so called right wing. You didnt mention the left wing media but you should have becuse both sides on the fringes are guilty. My point is, we dont have all the real information. Its clear to me Fauci has lied, so why would I trust him? I damn sure don't trust the Biden administration to pour milk into a jug..much less give me the truth. Covid is real, Vaccines have done a lot of good...but thats not the problem as far as Im concerned. BTW, I think for myself and thats seems to be more than you do Phil. I appreciate doctors but not all are correct on everything. Just because somebody in authority says something is good doesnt mean it always is. There were a lot of intelligent doctors involved with Hitler...So that just means they were clever devils. I do listen to what doctors say and most of the time they are probably right...but not always. Your president made this whole issue, just like a lot of other issues, into a political thing

27-Sep-21
"BTW, I think for myself and thats seems to be more than you do Phil." Uh, no. You don't seem to think for yourself. If you did you wouldn't say Fauci lied. Someone had to tell you he lied. Did he make contradicting statements over the course of time? Yes. That's how science works. You make your best assessment then continually adjust it as time goes on and more information is received.

I did mention right wing media because those sources - Fox, Newsmax, ONA and many right ring broadcasters and podcasts seem to be the prevalent source of misinformation regarding Ivermectin, vaccines, even COVID-19 itself.

And I do agree not all doctors are correct. But it's hard to find people that have years or decades of experience in a field not coming to agreement on the best course of action. There are always outliers but you have to consider what is the outlier's agenda that he/she would go against the consensus of the majority.

"My" President doesn't have anything to do with this discussion. This is about science, not politics. That's your political bias coming out again.

From: TGbow
27-Sep-21
Phil. You are the one that stated we are making this political..Im sure for some it is. Im neither Democrat or Republican so my motives are not due to a support of any party. There is a lot of bad info out there including anti vaxers. I dont trust the Biden administration, just like most administrations before him.

From: APauls
27-Sep-21
If I knew nothing about the content being argued about I would already know who I would believe based on the way they argue it. That being said, my wife happens to be an immunologist bought off by no one.

What's unfortunate is that it really doesn't matter until it does. Then it's too late.

It's also really funny when you read about guys saying how it's all made up by people in the US government and how they're doing this or that for this and that end. As if this situation doesn't even exist outside the US lol. I know, it's one big cruel joke, and every hospital, every country, and every government is in on it. How they all managed to pull it off is remarkable. Because Australia wanted to keep their borders closed. Because health care systems are just pretending to collapse. Can't possibly be anything to this at all. Is it super serious to the young and healthy?

No one ever said it was.

I used to be pretty anti-anything the government told me about this. But I have had an open mind throughout and I find the actual evidence simply too overwhelming. Give yourself the benefit of an open mind, and do your best to find information from each side. But you have to honestly want to have an open mind and honestly search to find good information refuting what you believe to ever have a hope. About the only guarantee to wading into this $hitstorm is getting some on your boots. But since it was asked where the support for bigeasy was I thought I'd chime in.

From: Thornton
27-Sep-21
Phil- "nothing more than an interesting story" .... keep in mind, your life will most likely be in a RN's hands someday, and you'll just be another interesting story-maybe. We are often stabilizing a patient ten minutes to an hour before a physician ever lays eyes on them. Not to mention, I've worked ER for 16 years and I'm taking orders from new resident physicians hat are literally experimenting on their patients because they gave so little of experience. When I was working ICU a few years ago, I took an ACLS class taught by a nurse educator. There were two new resident physicians in my group, and they did not know how to run a code. They were both asking her what meds to give.

From: bigeasygator
27-Sep-21
Well said, APauls.

From: Matt
27-Sep-21
"So, if this is the case, and the vaccine is SOOOO great, why are infection rates higher now than they were before mass immunization??? I'll tell you why. IT'S BECAUSE THE VACCINE IS CREATING THE VARIANTS AND THE VACCINATED ARE ACTUALLY SPREADING THE DISEASE BECAUSE THEY ARE CARRYING 250x THE VIRAL LOADS AS THE UNVACCINATED AND PERPETUATING THE PANDEMIC. It's a FACT!! Look it up if you don't believe me. I could provide a link to the study but most wouldn't read it anyway. "

Dave, post up the link the to study as I would like to read it. It might help me reconcile the claim that the vaccines are causing variants when the Delta variant - the one currently responsible for ~99% of COVID cases in the US - was first isolated in India in October 2020 which was before the vaccines were available.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant#:~:text=The%20Delta%20variant%20is%20now%20responsible%20for%20more,42%20to%2096%20percent%20for%20the%20Pfizer-BioNTech%20vaccine.

"Give yourself the benefit of an open mind, and do your best to find information from each side."

Easier said than done unfortunately. Many are too rooted in the politics to objectively evaluate scientific information that didn't come from "their" side.

From: KSflatlander
27-Sep-21

KSflatlander's Link
"Luckily, Darwin's theory is not just a theory."

Amen brother. And it doesn't give a [email protected]#t what your politics are.

"As of 1:00 Friday afternoon, the declaration had garnered over 3,100 signatures from doctors and scientists around the world."

Well that is vague and suspecious.

Are you sure you want to trust AmericanGreatness.com. They have been known to pass on misinformation.

AmericanGreatness.com- "During the Coronavirus pandemic of 2020, they advanced misinformation such as the promotion of hydroxychloroquine Yale Professor Says Hydroxychloroquine Could Save 100,000 Lives, which has been proven to be ineffective in the treatment and prevention of Covid-19. According to a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, “Among patients hospitalized with Covid-19, those who received hydroxychloroquine did not have a lower incidence of death at 28 days than those who received usual care."

Maybe you should try medical journals instead of right wing news outlets.

Credentials - Wildlife Biologist with no medical training...but I can read and understand non-bias scientific methods and information. How about you Dave?

From: TGbow
27-Sep-21
Darwin's theory...sounds like a theory yo me

From: bigeasygator
27-Sep-21
Gator's real photo.

Yup, that’s me. Not a critical thinking or analytical bone in my body. Unable to think for myself, separate fact from fiction, and form my own conclusions.

Hilarious.

You’ve said multiple times you are far more qualified than me to speak to these things, so why don’t you share what those qualifications are? I would LOVE to hear them.

From: Bowaddict
27-Sep-21
Dana, I call myself a freedom loving American! Up to date on all my vaccines, this isn’t much of a vaccine! Don’t have a problem with it either way, big problem with the way leftists are deceiving people! Go pound sand with your attempts to vilify Americans who have a different opinion of these”vaccines “ than you!! If you’re at risk and want it, get it! All the crap you’ve been trying to scare people with ain’t working . I’ve done and continue to research this for myself on search engines that don’t censor info, others should too and make their own decisions for themselves! Again, when it comes to labeling people that choose not to do what you did with derogatory comments….GO POUND SAND!! And I do think it benefits people at risk, it’s not working as a mass vaccination answer though!

From: DanaC
27-Sep-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
Brad,I ain't sure why you dragged me into this again, but I'll just offer this simple comparison of vaccination rates vs 'hot spots'. Y'all want to 'express yourselves' or 'declare your freedom' or whatever, be my guest. "it’s not working as a mass vaccination answer though! " is pure horse shit, though.

From: TGbow
27-Sep-21
Vermont has one of the highest % of vaccinated people but their covid rate is also high. People should be able to make their own choices.

If you dont understand that you just dont value freedom

From: Bowaddict
27-Sep-21
Your meme, and getting tired of the “anti-vax” comments/shaming!….lots of evidence to suggest just the opposite, just need to look with open mind. Israel on its 3rd boosters, infection rates up in summer, researchers fear that vaccines could be having negative effect. Which they are studying, that’s how science works. This is far from settled science, the honest researchers/virologist will tell you that. These vaccines keep the high risk out of dire trouble, agreed. Not for everyone!!!

From: DanaC
27-Sep-21
Brad, have you noticed that a lot of these 'memes' ignore population density/square mile? Big difference between living in rural west vs suburban NE. Almost *EVERY* body here is 'high risk'. Capische?

PS, if you drew a few map circles around the highest risk areas in eastern MA you'd see that even having some of the best hospitals in the world don't guarantee jack shite.

Heck, if I lived in rural MT, CO, WY, ND, SD, UT etc. I would probably not 'get' the urgency. But this is me, here. (And in one of the lowest-vax-rate towns in this dumbf* 'commonwealth. I sleep here and drink elsewhere.)

jyo-ymmv

From: Bowaddict
27-Sep-21
…..and many more examples, too busy living life to type them all! Late for softball I’m still playing at high level at 52, still getting it done on elk and other game. I’m in good shape not high risk! Never remember getting the flu, maybe a cold a year, COVID last November and had minor sore throat for few days that’s it! Don’t need anyone telling me what I should do or shaming me for my choices, or forcing something on me that I don’t want or need at this point in my lifetime..

From: Mpdh
27-Sep-21
I voted for Trump both times. The ideas and policies of the left scare the Hell out of me. I don’t believe everything anybody tells me without proof. After reading this entire thread, I am positive that Dave is a raving lunatic.

27-Sep-21
Thornton, "...keep in mind, your life will most likely be in a RN's hands someday, and you'll just be another interesting story-maybe. "

My life and my family has been in the hands of an RN for close to 40 years. My wife is a Masters prepared nurse. My sister is a nurse who went on to get a PhD in psychology. My sister-in-law is a nurse. My mother-in-law is a nurse - ran the ICU in the hospital where worked in for many years. There are other nurses in our family. I have been in healthcare for nearly 40 years (not a nurse). I know as well as anyone what nurses do and are capable of and how they are never treated or compensated commensurate with the value they bring . And I know that nurses and doctors see a lot of things that sometimes defy explanation. But we cannot create policy or approve drugs and treatments based on the things a nurse or doctor sees. It takes randomized clinical studies to understand the widespread impact.

From: DanaC
27-Sep-21
Been in hospitals enough to know who the angels are - nurses!

BUT, their specialty is 'patient care', not 'medical science', research, statistical analysis etc.

There ARE studies that follow data provided by a large sampling of nurses. (Not re covid, to my knowledge.) This is entirely different from 'anecdotal evidence' gathered by talking with a few or a few dozen care-givers.

Bless the nurses, but take their individual testimony with a grain of salt.

From: PECO
27-Sep-21
Nurses are in the trenches on the front line. I'll take their reports over "facts" from Biden and big pharm.

From: Bowaddict
27-Sep-21
When I talk “high risk” it’s people that if they get covid they are at high risk of it being severe. High risk of coming in contact is not “high risk” since the vast majority of people show mild symptoms, nice try “capische”? What I have noticed is all the memes concentrate on case rates instead of hospitalization rates! Hospitalization rates are down compared to the first outbreak a year ago. If everything the left is trying to scare us to death about was true then there should be dead people piling up in these college towns that have had full football stadiums for a month now…..yet rates are flattening and coming down overall. I’ve mentioned it before, but these vaccines will not and have not stopped this virus. This is not a virus isolated to humans, it has too many animal hosts to keep it from mutating or killing it. You think the sky is falling, I see that. Keep pumping those boosters in, thats YOUR choice! And again, not against it or anyone that’s gotten it, can you say that about people who choose not to for there own situation?

From: Coyote 65
02-Oct-21
Everything is going to be all right, just use Pfizermectin.

https://welovetrump.com/2021/09/30/pfizermectin-is-pfizer-rebranding-ivermectin-to-use-to-treat-covid-19/

Terry

From: woodguy65
02-Oct-21
Why don't the so called smart people in charge - with PHD's...Whitehouse, CDC, Fauci - have an answer regarding natural immunity!?!???

They literally can't - won't answer the question - very odd don't you think?

Why isnt there an ACCURATE antibody test available!?

We've had a year and a half and 10's, 100's of million of test samples to study, test , develop. There is endless amounts of money to throw at this - so thats not the problem.

Wouldn't testing for natural immunity literally be the second thing you want to know about after getting vaccine's developed if you were the smart folks in charge??

I mean literally almost all the issues and problems would go away over night. If natural immunity is as good or better than a vaccine - and we can accurately test for those antibodies - then we would be well past herd immunity. No more lockdowns, no more freedoms lost, no more paying people to stay home, no more business's lost, borders opened...

Moreover, the vast majority of the nurses would not lose their job - because most have had Covid - seems to me they are the ones smart enough to follow the science. Why get a vaccine that could potentially harm you when you have natural immunity?

02-Oct-21

4nolz@work's embedded Photo
4nolz@work's embedded Photo
Keep on ridiculing it until Big Pharma can profit.

From: DanaC
02-Oct-21
Pfizer doesn't *make* Ivermectin, Merck does.

'Nother clown-spiracy...

From: DanaC
02-Oct-21
I can find zero on who owns or operates 'Independent Side'. Curiouser and curiouser...

From: KSflatlander
02-Oct-21
There are some really gullible grown men on Bowsite.

From: woodguy65
02-Oct-21

woodguy65's Link
Again...

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
Maybe!

No. There are many protease inhibitors on the market. Protease inhibitors have been very successful in treating HIV. Pfizer is developing one aimed at COVID. It is not ivermectin. That, as has been pointed out, isn’t even Pfizer’s drug.

Just because a medication works in a similar fashion or treats similar symptoms, doesn’t mean they are the same drug. Not all painkillers are ibuprofen. And saying Pfizer is rebranding Merck’s drug ivermectin to treat COVID is like saying Ford is rebranding Tesla’s Model 3 in response to the energy transition. It makes absolutely no sense.

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
No, I did look. It’s no secret these companies are developing antivirals. Some are in late stages of testing and could be approved for use under an EUA soon.

They are completely different drugs than ivermectin. Posting a link saying ivermectin is being “rebranded” shows a fundamental lack of understanding of not only the science, but of the commercial and legal aspects to the equation as well.

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
Like I said, gladly once you share yours

I have a degree in Chemical Engineering and also an MBA. I’d say I’m fairly well versed with a lot of topics germane to this conversation and have demonstrated that in my education and my 20 year career working as an engineer - things like statistics, chemistry, the scientific method, analytics, critical thinking, reading comprehension, yada yada yada. If you want to find more about my educational and professional background, I’m not hard to find online - but might I suggest my LinkedIn profile rather than my Facebook page. Go ahead, your turn Dave.

From: Grey Ghost
02-Oct-21
I'll add my resume' to the discussion, just to see if Dave is a man of his word.

I'm just a lowly architect by education who had a successful business in residential development that allowed me to comfortably retire at 45. I had my hand in a few other cookie jars along the way, but none of them were medical or science related. So clearly I'm just an "ignorant moron" who isn't capable of critical thinking with an open mind.

Your turn, Dave.

Matt

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
Why is it we hear people testifying of having good results from ivermectin but the media shuts anything down about it. Its really hard to find the truth when you got wacko conspiracy stuff out there and then you have the government not being truthful...its pathetic

From: DanaC
02-Oct-21
I don't know that the media is shutting down anything, but Inv. is a 'treatment' and that is no substitute for preventing the dam' disease in the first place.

Used to be people understood that 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure', but the dumbing down of today's public continues apace.

From: Matt
02-Oct-21
"Why is it we hear people testifying of having good results from ivermectin but the media shuts anything down about it."

The vast majority of people who catch COVID have mild cases and recover pretty quickly. Should we really be that surprised if people who take Ivermectin do so as well? My sense is that people want to attribute their recovery to the drug, when in reality they would likely have had a similar outcome without it.

There have been quite a few trials to determine Ivermectin's effectiveness in treating COVID and none that I have looked at has found a statistically significant benefit.

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
Matt, you have a good point. It just bothers me that the gov os trying to force the vaccine. I really dont know what to believe. I had Covid, I know its serious. Another thing Biden doesn't seem to have a problem excluding certain groups...that throws up a red flag for me

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21

bigeasygator's Link
That’s all spot on, Matt. Personal anecdotes do not equate to controlled clinical trials. And the data thus far on Ivermectin is mixed. Many of the existing studies are poorly conducted, do not involve a statistically significant sample size, are biased, etc. The ones that aren’t are a mixed bag in terms of results - some mildly positive, some showing no effect at all, and some suggesting worse outcomes with Ivermectin. The following link to some meta-analysis from the NIH summarizes much of what’s out there. More data is coming, but for now, statistically speaking, the jury is still out.

From: LINK
02-Oct-21
“ My sense is that people want to attribute their recovery to the drug, when in reality they would likely have had a similar outcome without it.”

Exactly how I feel about the “vaccine”.

From: Matt
02-Oct-21
'Exactly how I feel about the “vaccine”.'

There are mountains of data demonstrating the COVID vaccines are effective at preventing serious disease and death and provide protection from catching the disease. One only has to look at hospitalization rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated for the benefits to be evident.

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
Spot on again, Matt. We have more data on these vaccines than any vaccine in history. From a statistical perspective, the data leaves no room for doubt as to the safety and effectiveness of the COVID vaccines. Again, we have no equivalent dataset for Ivermectin, and the data that we do have is inconclusive.

From: creed
02-Oct-21
I know two people in our farming community that were slated for ventilators. There is a doctor that the families convinced to prescribe ivermectin. Both showed marked improvement within 24 hours and were released within 72 hours from taking it. I don't think they much care about "medical data" that doesn't support the use of ivermectin. They are alive when in all likelihood they would be dead without a doctor willing to go against what is medically accepted and prescribe ivermectin.

02-Oct-21
I had a sick Veterinarian friend with the same results as creed posted

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
Newbow...thats exactly my point.. how do we know the real data? Im not one to just believe the gov just because they say so. Especially this administration..dont trust the FDA either

From: Thornton
02-Oct-21
Bigeasygator. So what do you have to say about all the vaccinated patients I treat in ER? I had 6 in one week. I mean, they were sick enough to get themselves a sepsis alert 5 minutes after being placed in a room. There are far more unvaccinated pts seen, but the positive vaccinated far exceed the "1 in 5,000" that dumbass Biden was proclaiming last week.

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
How would anyone know if they would do worse without the vaccine if they already got it?

The idea behind a controlled study is you do exactly that. You generate enough data to evaluate the effect of individuals that got the medication against a group of individuals that didn’t. You randomize who gets what drug and you ensure you have a meaningful sample size to account for other potential biases in the study. When it is said and done, you analyze the results - which group got sick, how sick did they get, etc etc. This is how we know beyond a statistical shadow of a doubt that the COVID vaccines are extremely safe and they’re also extremely effective at preventing and mitigating the disease.

Newbow...thats exactly my point.. how do we know the real data?

Again, see above. If you’re suggesting that the data is faked or falsified, I’d say that’s highly, highly unlikely. These studies are scrutinized, both by the government and by watchdogs outside of the government. Any nefarious actions are liable to result in consequences these companies want to ensure they avoid. It’s highly unlikely the data and the conclusions derived from it are anything but the truth.

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
Bigeasygator. So what do you have to say about all the vaccinated patients I treat in ER? I had 6 in one week. I mean, they were sick enough to get themselves a sepsis alert 5 minutes after being placed in a room.

I’d say six patients isn’t a drastically significant dataset. I’d want to know what other risk factors were present. I’d want to know when and what type of vaccine these patients had. Did all of them go into sepsis? What kind of treatment did they all require? What were there outcomes? How does this compare to the unvaccinated patients you are seeing? You yourself admit that there are far more unvaccinated patients seen. In our local hospitals, that ratio is about 10 to 1 unvaxed vs vaxed for ER visits, and it’s about 100 to 1 for trips to the ICU. What is it in your hospital? How is the overall case rate trending? What is the vaccination rate in the community you treat?

Nobody is saying vaccines are 100% effective, so we expect some level of breakthrough cases. But without answering those questions and providing more context saying you saw six vaccinated patients in a week in your ER doesn’t really say or mean much statistically speaking.

From: Matt
02-Oct-21

Matt's Link
"How would anyone know if they would do worse without the vaccine if they already got it? Everyone's body's immune systems are different and there are so many variables that it isn't possible to make all the statements being made here and even know if the statements you are making are true. These are all opinions so take them for what they are worth. Not much!"

While it is true we can't say how any one vaccinated individual would handle COVID absent he vaccine, we have ample data on how populations (vaccinated and unvaccinated) are responding. The evidence is clear to any person approaching this with an open mind that the vaccines are effective at protecting against COVID, and even more so to protect against severe disease, hospitalization, and death.

It is no accident that most states are reporting that ~90% of those hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated, even in states like New York (see link) where ~65% of adults are vaccinated. To put that in more direct terms, in NY ~35% of adults are unvaccinated but the unvaccinated represent ~90% of hospitalizations.

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
I dont know anyone within my scope of people I know that had the vaccine and had any ill effects. What Thornton stated is an example of why I dont trust Biden. If his reason were genuine for pushing the vaccine, then why does he not include illegal aliens as a target for vaccination, or congress? It dont take a whole lot to come up with a reason not to trust that bastard

From: Matt
02-Oct-21
"What Thornton stated is an example of why I dont trust Biden."

What Thornton (and a few others) states is why I don't trust small sample sizes. I don't trust Biden either, but he isn't the one conducting these COVID studies.

From: txhunter58
02-Oct-21
As far as people who are actually using ivermectin, please do NOT use the horse worming paste. It is very concentrated and thus easy to overdose. I suspect most of the cases of toxicity occur with people using that product. I cannot tell you what product to use but I will say that there is a cattle injectable that some people are using ORALLY.

02-Oct-21
The guys here pushing the msm narrative, must be paid influencers arguing against Ivermectin. However, it does kill covid in lab tests? What do they, (personally) have to lose if it works? Why do they care to copy and paste rebuttals all day everyday? It’s bow season for crying out loud. LOL

If a friend or family member was actually dying of covid what do you have to lose at this point? Your pride? A proven safe drug of 40 years, won a noble prize, over 4 billion doses given and rising rapidly?

It seems that it’s, narrative at all cost. Vaccination at all cost...which seems to be a dud. (We’ve had 6 relatives fully vaccinated get severe covid, one hospitalized 2 weeks.)

But just keep on fighting it fellas, it’s what you’re good at. The purpose of this thread was to let people know that ivermectin is not just horse wormer...something the media spent millions in airtime having you believe.

The original link was from a pharmacist that felt obligated to share it after seeing the media campaign against it.

Happy Hunting Fellas

From: txhunter58
02-Oct-21
As a veterinarian, I will use any and all methods to combat Covid. First, I am fully vaccinated and will get a booster when they are available. I have been exposed multiple times to Covid pos people since being vaccinated and haven’t contracted it yet.

But I also have ivermectin on my shelf and will be using it if I ever come down with Covid. Every vet I know that has gotten Covid has used Ivermectin

From: Matt
02-Oct-21
"The guys here pushing the msm narrative, must be paid influencers arguing against Ivermectin."

Just offering up the science,...... and countering the paid influencers pimping the FOX narrative.

Ivermectin inhibits replication of certain viruses in vitro (in a petri dish) but has not been shown to have the same effect in vivo (in the body) and from what I have read cannot be safely dosed to replicate the in vitro concentration.

The 2017 article cited in the OP referenced Ivermectin's prospective effectiveness as an anti-viral against Dengue Fever, HIV, and encephalitis. Last I checked Ivermectin hasn't cured the world of any of those viruses, nor do I find any constructive follow-up studies to lend additional credence to the hypothesis.

From: Keith
02-Oct-21
I used Ivermectin when I had covid. Symptoms were a couple weeks, as I describe to people, I had a 24 hour flu for 2 weeks, except I didn't lose my taste and smell. I don't know if it helped, but I also believe it didn't hurt.

From: Thornton
02-Oct-21
For those of you making fun of ivermectin, here are 4 meds we are currently giving in the hospital I work at. If the patient is seen in ER and dismissed, they are giving the option of outpatient infusions of these meds. These are experimental meds, and a consent form is required. None of the 4 meds are FDA approved for the treatment of covid

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21

bigeasygator's Link
I only see one med highlighted in that form, the monoclonal antibody treatment REGEN-COV, which is authorized under an Emergency Use Authorization by the FDA for treatment of COVID based on the results of robust, controlled clinical trials - something Ivermectin is not. What are the other three?

And any answers to the questions I put forward above in reference to the six vaccinated patients who showed up in the ER?

From: Matt
02-Oct-21
To be clear, I am not making fun of Ivermectin - just those who tout it as somehow superior to other treatments which are actually supported by positive clinical trial results (like the Casirivimab/Imdevimab combination referenced in the consent form). IMO it is just elevating politics (or perhaps familiarity?) over science as a means to combat a novel virus.

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
Same here, Matt. I won’t tolerate the conspiracy theory BS, and it’s flabbergasting that people would push unproven, poorly tested solutions - like Ivermectin - in lieu of vaccines and treatments that have been appropriately tested, reviewed, and authorized/approved for use.

If Ivermectin proves successful in robustly conducted clinical trials, great! The more effective tools to battle COVID, the better. But it hasn’t, and anyone that thinks there is some conspiracy - either in promoting vaccines or suppressing drugs like Ivermectin - is clearly pushing politics over science.

From: KSflatlander
02-Oct-21
Amen brother!

02-Oct-21
Until the policy makers (and experts advising them) recognize natural immunity as at least equal to the vaccine, it's obvious the politics of Covid are rampant on all sides.

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
I wonder if that has Ivermectin in it?

It doesn’t.

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
The conspiracy theories only make things worse. But, because someone has a different opinion or dont trust the CDC, big pharma and the Biden administration doesnt mean they are a wack job. I know Biden doesn't control the testing of vacvines, ect...but he has an agenda. I really dont know what to believe to be honest. There are a lot of doctors that are saying natural immunity should be considered..they are not all conspiracy theorist.

I have a choice to make sense the co I work far is giving me a choice of either getting vaccinated or finding another job. But, what bothers me more is the fact that this incompetent leader we have is doing a very good job at destroying everything he touches...dang, Bush n Obama was bad enough but this clown is worse. I know he's just the puppet but he still has a choice to say no to the ones pullinbthe strings

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo

bigeasygator's Link
Tell us what is in it? Since you know maybe we could go into business together and make a ton of money?

Seeing as molnupiravir is a patented compound, even if you could produce it, you aren’t going to be profiting off of it.

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
But, because someone has a different opinion or dont trust the CDC, big pharma and the Biden administration doesnt mean they are a wack job. I know Biden doesn't control the testing of vacvines, ect...but he has an agenda

What was the Trump administration’s agenda when they authorized Operation Warp Speed? How was Trump any different than Biden when he said, "The Vaccine and the Vaccine rollout are getting the best of reviews. Moving along really well. Get those ‘shots’ everyone!"

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
I dont recall Trump pushing for a mandate. My problem is the same as I had with the Patriot Act..even if there are some good things in the PA, which I dont know what that would be, if we lose some of our freedom then Im against it. Bush pushed for the bail out of the Big business and Obama followed his lead..doesn't matter to me if its my own father, I dont want to see us lose any more than we've already lost. Its not about Democrat or Republican for me. ..both parties have proven to be corrupt

02-Oct-21
"I know he's just the puppet but he still has a choice to say no to the ones pulling the strings"

I'm guessing that 50 years of being a politician built up a closet full of skeletons and deals that mean the choice to say "no" to bad policy that's put on his desk by the folks behind the curtain (even if he wanted to) isn't really an option.

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
Newbow, I hope it works out for you..I was self employed for 13 yrs..I may have to resort to that if need be. Ive got 14 yrs with this co, Im 61 and have a 17 year old still at home so its not just about me. It will work out though..it doesnt bother me too bad to find another job, but it bothers me a lot to see our nation resembling a Marxist/ Socialsit country more n more. I will say, we cant blame all this on Biden, as much as I cant stand what he does, this has been going on for years..its just more in the open now. Leftsit Democrats n NeoCon Republicans have done a great job at moving us in the wrong direction

From: Matt
02-Oct-21

Matt's Link
"There are a lot of doctors that are saying natural immunity should be considered..they are not all conspiracy theorist."

I am in agreement with you on the question around natural immunity, but it seems like there is still too much debate in terms of the level of protection provided versus the vaccines for that to be accepted in lieu of vaccination.

There are studies that suggest natural immunity provides better protection than the vaccines (see link, quote below):

"This study from Israel, available as a preprint and thus not yet peer reviewed, found that the rates of SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infections in vaccinated individuals, while very low (highest rate = 1.5%), were significantly higher than the rates of reinfection and hospitalization in previously infected individuals. "

But I have also seen studies which suggests the vaccines provide greater protection against infection/re-infection (article URL below, quote below).

"In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus. These data further indicate that COVID-19 vaccines offer better protection than natural immunity alone and that vaccines, even after prior infection, help prevent reinfections."

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

From: Thornton
02-Oct-21
In response BEG. I'm keeping a tab, starting today on my 3 day stretch. I personally have taken care of 2 covid positive patients today. One was vaccinated, one was not. The unvaccinated pt was 28 with no past medical history, and the vaccinated pt was age 50's with past medical history. Here are the other two experimental drugs requiring consent for infusion.

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
Newbow, I agree. I tried to teach my son n daughter to think for themselves, when my son wanted to join the Marines I didnt try to sway him..even though I had my own opinions about the Iraq War. I dont buy into all the fringe stuff I read on the anti vax side but I also dont trust our government. I pray it works out for you..Im sure you will do just fine. My Dad is 92 now, he always said motivation will take you a long way

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
Matt, I dont think there is enough testing done on the vaccine either. As far as natural immunity I feel the same way..but a lot of doctors seem to think natural immunity is as good

From: txhunter58
02-Oct-21
Why does anyone pit one method of attack or treatment of Covid against another??? Does your football team run only one play? The defense of a football team or virus can defeat the other team if they only rely on one play. That is why we use multimodal attacks. Is vaccine foolproof? No. Is monoclonal antibodies? No. Is ivermectin? Certainly not. I sure won’t go to a doctor that only tries on one therapy.

I take Vitamin D every day too! :-)

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
If I had some ivermectin I probably would have taken it last month when I had the Covid.

From: Matt
02-Oct-21
"Matt, I dont think there is enough testing done on the vaccine either."

In what regard? Not sure I agree with that. There have been 6.3 billion doses of the various COVID vaccines administered globally. I doubt one could point to any drug in modern times for which we have that much data.

From: Thornton
02-Oct-21
Txhunter- your body makes all the vitamin D it needs from the sun. You usually just pee out all the water soluble vitamin pills.

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
Matt, from what I understand there is usually a couple years of testing but thats what Ive read..I could be wrong. Thornton probably knows more about that than I do

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
Matt, from what I understand there is usually a couple years of testing but thats what Ive read

Usually there are. But when you have a global pandemic ongoing and the case counts that we have, you can test a vaccine much quicker - which is why the COVID vaccine didn’t need years of testing.

The Pfizer phase III clinical trial of the vaccine that became Comirnaty included 44,000 participants (half got the drug, half got the placebo). Primary efficacy was assessed after a few months when ultimately around 170 cases of COVID occurred across the test subjects (8 from the Comirnaty group, 162 from the placebo group). Again, this case count and data was generated in months. Most vaccine tests involve far fewer test subjects and take much, much longer to generate an acceptable level of cases to measure efficacy.

From: Thornton
02-Oct-21
I distinctly remember mainstream media announcements stating the vaccine trials were halted due to high numbers of adverse reactions and a few deaths. I was astounded when 2 weeks later, they announced the vaccine was safe.

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
The whole thing is aggravating to try n figure out to me. There is a lot of money involved... I dont know what the real truth is as far as the vaccine goes..we have a terrible situation but it just throws upba red flag when slippery Joe and his cronies have no problem letting illegals cross the border but yet he wants to push the vaccine on US citizens...he is a joke

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21

bigeasygator's Link
I distinctly remember mainstream media announcements stating the vaccine trials were halted due to high numbers of adverse reactions and a few deaths. I was astounded when 2 weeks later, they announced the vaccine was safe.

You shouldn’t be astounded. There have been nearly 100 different COVID vaccines tested in clinical trials. It is not surprising that a few of them would be stopped due to potential safety concerns. None of the mRNA vaccine trials were paused. The high profile trials that were paused were J&J’s, AstraZeneca’s, and Eli Lilly’s.

From: TGbow
02-Oct-21
Beg, that makes sense but it seems like a short time for them to be tested. I know the ground work for the vaccine was over a long period of time but I thought they usuually tested them for a couple years

From: bigeasygator
02-Oct-21
Again, you’re not wrong. It usually takes years to measure the effectiveness of the vaccine. One silver lining to a pandemic delivering 220 million cases in less than two years is that you have the available cases to test things much quicker.

From: TGbow
03-Oct-21
Newbow, thats what is aggravating..just have to dig around more and find out what you can on these kind of things. I just watched a video of Senator Ron Johnson displaying the stats on Great Britain..started back in February. 680,000 cases of the Delta variant cases.

Wish I had copied the link but it made what Biden has been saying " this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated" ...not to be the case. A look at Israel's latest stats seem to say the same..and I think Israel is 70% vaccinated? But then I dont pay much attention to what that clown says..Fauci either.

From: DL
03-Oct-21

DL's embedded Photo
DL's embedded Photo
Well thanks to the internet one can’t know what to believe anymore about anything. You can’t trust anyone or anything it seems. The only thing I feel sure about is China has screwed the world over this and that lab should be nuked.

03-Oct-21
We can't even disable the Blackhawks we left for the Taliban. No way are we going to nuke the lab we paid for.

From: TGbow
03-Oct-21
Yep, our present leadership is embarrassing

From: Matt
03-Oct-21
"Matt, from what I understand there is usually a couple years of testing but thats what Ive read..I could be wrong."

I have read from a few reliable sources that vaccines are cleared from the system quickly and side effects generally occur in the first 6-8 weeks following vaccination, so long term study is not necessarily beneficial. Drugs that are taken daily/weekly build in the body over time and take a longer period to assess.

"I distinctly remember mainstream media announcements stating the vaccine trials were halted due to high numbers of adverse reactions and a few deaths. I was astounded when 2 weeks later, they announced the vaccine was safe."

It was the J&J vaccine. The clinical trial was halted in 4/21 due to 28 cases and 3 deaths of TTS (blood clotting disorder). That was out of 7M doses administered (TTS rate of 0.0004%). The trial was resumed 2 weeks later as the benefit was deemed to outweigh the risk.

NewBow, if only the OAN is reporting it, I am going to go out on a limb and suggest it is not true. EDIT: not sure the quality of this source (looks like a local news channel) but it speaks to lockdowns, testing and contact tracing as the basis for the reduction in COVID cases. It also calls into question the "COVID-free" claim by OAN.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/uttar-pradesh-sets-new-record-becomes-first-state-to-cross-7-5-crore-covid-tests-4199399.html

From: DanaC
03-Oct-21
"- your body makes all the vitamin D it needs from the sun. You usually just pee out all the water soluble vitamin pills. "

Only if you get *enough* sunshine. Winter, folks in the northern parts of the country are D-deficient. A simple blood test can tell you. Vitamins are inexpensive enough that being deficient in any of them is easily avoided. Yeah, you'll excrete what you don't need. So what? Same goes for coffee.

03-Oct-21
"TGBow I am in the same boat as you but for me it isn't a decision I have to make because of the morality issues the shot has. I am not getting it even if it would save my life."

do you or your family every use tylenol, ibuprofen, aspirin, sudafed, tums, pepto bismol, benadryl, claratin, sudafed, or maalox?

From: KSflatlander
03-Oct-21
Anyone notice how Dave crawfished after BEG have his credentials?

From: Grey Ghost
03-Oct-21
Yup^^^. I also noticed his latest post has disappeared. Perhaps the mods finally decided personal attacks and childish name-calling have no place on a public forum.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
03-Oct-21
Dave,

Could you post links to your "peer reviewed journal articles and studies".

Thanks,

Matt

From: TGbow
03-Oct-21
One thing I have noticed during all this maize of information out there on Covid is anyone that speaks out about the vaccine in a negative way are censored. That just makss people more suspicious. Facebook, Google,ect..are censoring all this and its evident. I posted an article on Facebook about Biden and the issue of illegals crossing the border with no vaccine mandate..which they publicly admitted...Facebook blocked it saying it could contribute to false information. Im no longer on FB

From: KSflatlander
03-Oct-21
I’m calling BS. No credible doctor would say the Covid vaccines are not vaccines. And what MD retires after 20 years to spread internet misinformation? Dave has said too many false statements to be a medical doctor. But the again it’s always 9 out of 10 doctors recommended….maybe Dave is the one doctor.

03-Oct-21
The fat soluble vitamins( A D E and K) can be stored by the body the others( B complex etc) are water soluble and you excrete the excess daily

From: bigeasygator
03-Oct-21
a degree in physiology, including microbiology and immunology. I also have a medical degree which includes training in virology, immunology, and epidemiology.

LOL you just so happen to be an expert and hold degrees in all the fields related to the conversation we’ve been having, yet you fail to understand fundamental facts around the COVID vaccine and you have zero footprint anywhere around these fields online? Where did you get your degrees? What city and what clinic did you practice medicine? I’m gonna go out on a limb and call BS on all of that.

Like GG said, if you have peer reviewed journal articles, you should be able to post links to them. We would all love to read them.

Don’t worry about it, I’m sure they don’t exist and we won’t be seeing them. But thanks for giving me such a good laugh this morning, Dave.

Oh sorry. I guess it's over 3000 now. And that's only the ones who have signed the declaration. I can guarantee you the number is much, much higher who believe the same and haven't signed the declaration.

Oh man, a declaration signed by .08% of the doctors in the world, most of whom probably have little to no experience with virology or immunology beyond a few hours of lecture in med school. I hope they wrote and signed this on Charmin, because then it would actually be useful for something.

From: Matt
03-Oct-21
'Could you post links to your "peer reviewed journal articles and studies".'

You aren't suggesting that people might pretend to be something they aren't on the internet? Crazy talk....

From: Mike in CT
03-Oct-21
Jason & Matt (GG),

As you both surmised due to both an extremely busy schedule and the inescapable reality that there will always be those who will deny the facts I've stayed away from the bulk of these threads. Much of what has been posited as undeniable facts to the contrary have been thoroughly exposed (as both of you have pointed out) as misinformation, some coming very sadly from those who should clearly know better.

When anyone disputes that agents which clearly meet every accepted definition of what constitutes a vaccine aren't that pretty much precludes their adding anything of value to the discussion. When they clearly do not understand that what is involved in gaining 510k (FDA) clearance are demonstrable safety & efficacy and that time is not a prerequisite, but what had once been simply an unavoidable reality in acquiring the necessary data it's clear that they're interested in argument, not discussion.

When anyone who alleges to have a background in virology fails to understand the inherent nature of RNA viruses to mutate and suggests this only occurs when a vaccination campaign is underway is staggeringly ignorant of basic principles of virology.

The understanding of viral loads relative to the vaccinated and unvaccinated is equally perplexing given the alleged credentials as well; they do not remain static in the vaccinated, they decline rapidly to levels where infectivity is no longer likely, contrary to the unvaccinated where they continue to rise until such time as that persons natural immunity (assuming immunocompetency) allows for recovery.

To argue that the greater percentage of hospitalizations and ICU bed occupancy lies with the vaccinated population is demonstrably untrue. Jason has posted statistics from hospitals in his home state that show this to be untrue. For anyone interested google Hackensack-Meridian Heath (the largest health system in NJ) and you'll see similar numbers. The list of hospitals and hospital systems with similar statistics is readily accessible as well.

I have had some productive discussions with some who were unconvinced; I'll always have those regardless of the demands on my time as there is no worthier cause than the search for understanding.

Stay well people.

From: bigeasygator
03-Oct-21
Careful, Mike. Real talk like that will get you labeled as an imbecile, ignorant, or *ghast* a libtard.

For those that don’t know him, Mike is highly likely to be the most qualified individual to comment on these COVID threads - and unlike some posters on here, that is easily verifiable. He is a go to source for me on these matters, and I encourage everyone to pay attention when he weighs in.

My guess is we won’t hear anymore from Dave the MD/immunologist/epidemiologist/microbiologist/physiologist/surgeon. Or if we do it’ll be something to the effect of “more lies from the ignorant and unqualified here on Bowsite,” and we won’t get to hear where he got his degrees or we he practiced medicine. I was really looking forward to those peer reviewed papers too.

From: Grey Ghost
03-Oct-21
As usual, Mike in CT never fails to bring a bit of sanity to these threads, while always being civil and respectful. His credentials are undeniable and easily verifiable. He's also a man of strong Christian faith, a great family man, and a true political conservative. My online relationship with him goes back over 25 years. Regrettably, we've never met in person, which I sincerely hope to change some day. Nonetheless, I consider him a close friend, and hope he feels the same way.

Much respect, Mike, and thanks for sharing your TRUE expertise on this subject.

Matt

03-Oct-21
Mike - I have a question that I hope you can answer. As I understand it, those that have had a natural COVID infection and then were vaccinated have the strongest protection against reinfection.

What about those that have been vaccinated and then have a breakthrough infection?

Also, it appears as those who have had natural infections, whether mild or more severe, exhibit loss of grey matter according to comparisons of brain scans by UK Biobank.

Are those who have had breakthrough infections after being vaccinated showing similar degrees of loss of grey matter?

From: Mike in CT
03-Oct-21

Mike in CT's Link
Rick,

Those who had COVID and recovered have acquired natural immunity; in addition to an effective antibody response they have the added benefit of establishing a cell-mediated immune (CMI) response to the virus. I have advised those who are sure they had COVID to get a reliable antibody test as they may have a high titer and would not need to be vaccinated. Given the possible adverse reactions (though minimal) if you have an effective antibody titer why take the risk?

Will it help? Yes, in much the same way as a "booster" shot can help in the vaccinated population. As with any medical decision arm yourself with all the facts and if you have a trusted family physician, consult them.

Breakthrough infections in the vaccinated population have by and large tended to be mildly symptomatic; having antibodies will quickly bring the new infection under control quickly. What we've seen to date in this regard speaks again to the effectiveness of the vaccines in minimizing severe infections and hospitalizations.

The UK study from my perusal of it does seem to have been well designed; I agree with the consensus that further studies are needed to both conclusively link this to the virus and to assess whether this will be short term or permanent loss of brain cells.

Link is some good information regarding an assessment of the aforementioned study.

From: KSflatlander
03-Oct-21
Mike- Not to keep hounding you but a quick question. it seems ridiculous that the federal mandate does not include a positive antibody/titer test for previously infected individuals. Any thoughts on that? Any scientific or medical reason not to accept a titer test in lieu of a vaccine? I haven’t found any good sources explaining why antibody tests are not accepted.

From: bigeasygator
03-Oct-21
Curious to see what Mike has to say as well. I agree with you and others that it would be nice if acquired immunity was accounted for in our COVID mitigation efforts. With that said, I found this article to be enlightening on aspects of that subject - how we don’t really have standardization amongst the various available antibody tests, and there are still questions as to what level of antibodies are needed to effectively protect against COVID.

From: bigeasygator
03-Oct-21

bigeasygator's Link
Sorry, forgot the link.

From: KSflatlander
03-Oct-21
Thanks BEG.

From: Mike in CT
03-Oct-21

Mike in CT's Link
Ryan,

At least part of the reluctance to accept adequate levels of antibody are touched on in the link Jason provided; I agree that the lack of standardization among tests is an issue but would counter that there are some very reliable tests to determine antibody titer in individuals.

I'll provide a link that describes a potential path to assess effective levels of neutralizing antibodies. This certainly can be done in the US and a reliable assessment tool should preclude the need for any person with an effective level of neutralizing antibody to get a vaccination. It's a bit involved but I'm certain this crowd will get this.

From: KSflatlander
03-Oct-21
Thanks Mike. Much appreciated. Good luck this season.

03-Oct-21
Thanks Mike. I consult my doctor. My family and I are vaccinated and have avoided COVID thus far.

I respect your knowledge and opinions. My curiosity stems from friends and family members outside of my household. Some who have had COVID and then been vaccinated, following the advice of their doctor and some who have been vaccinated and then became infected with a breakthrough infection.

I’ve looked at that UK Biobank study and several articles that addressed it, but haven’t come across anything addressing whether or not this apparent loss of grey matter is occurring at the same level in those who have been vaccinated.

I have a hunting buddy who has been struggling with “Long Haul” issues after becoming infected last Thanksgiving.

His experience has me wondering/concerned about long term ramifications that my kids might encounter if they acquire a breakthrough infection.

Is this loss of grey matter long term? Permanent? What’s the potential impact of that long term?

I’ve read some things that one theory with regard to the malaise that “Long Haulers” experience may be due to microscopic clots that can block the smallest branches of capillaries and create tiny pockets of damage.

I am curious as to whether the vaccine helps to reduce that in a breakthrough infection.

I recognize that there may not be any real answers to my questions yet. And I also recognize that there’s little that can be done to mitigate any risk without adopting unrealistic measures that have very detrimental impacts.

We are not adopting any extreme measures out of paranoia. We’re pretty much simply following grandma’s advice. Eat nutritious meals, get adequate sleep, exercise, wash hands and because they are of Scandinavian descent and Vitamin D deficient, take the Vitamin D supplements that their doctor prescribed well before COVID.

From: TGbow
03-Oct-21
Israel is 70 to 80% vaxed and their latest spike is worse than the ones before. There is a lot I dont understand about it all but that seems strange

From: nchunter
03-Oct-21
I have a friend who lives in Florida. His father had covid and was pretty sick. Ended up in the hospital. His personal MD wanted him to try ivermectin but the hospital said no. He signed his own release papers and the doc started ivermectin. He was incredibly better after 2 days. Beats me, but this is a true story of someone I know personally.

From: LINK
04-Oct-21
Lots of true stories out there that aren’t pedaling the government propaganda.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Oct-21

Grey Ghost's Link
"Israel is 70 to 80% vaxed and their latest spike is worse than the ones before.

As of today, Israel's number of serious Covid cases is at a 2 month low. 75% of those cases are unvaccinated, even though the unvaccinated represent only 15% of the population. That's a clear indication that the vaccines are working.

Matt

From: TGbow
04-Oct-21
Thats not the stats I saw on Israel

From: TGbow
04-Oct-21

TGbow's embedded Photo
TGbow's embedded Photo

From: Mike in CT
04-Oct-21
TG,

Your concern is understandable given how poorly communicated certain realities are. To begin with too often I see reports that do not speak adequately to underlying comorbidities, notably the recent spike in cases in Israel. Add to that the fact that most of the hospitalized patients in this spike are also over 60 years old and it becomes more understandable what is driving this "spike" in cases.

What we need to bear in mind is that the immune systems efficiency wanes over time, the degree to which is predicated upon the individual involved. Absent any comorbidities this waning may be gradual and not become serious (lack of immunocompetency) until well into their 70's if not 80's. In some segment of the population the decreased efficiency may not be gradual but more like falling off of a cliff; in either case these populations may range in response to vaccination, from an adequate response to minimal response to, sadly, no response (no production of protective antibodies).

Add comorbidities (diabetes, respiratory issues, cardiovascular conditions) and the response to the vaccine is further eroded. It's my opinion that we have been grossly underserved by our public health officials in making these realities clear so that the alarm (panic in some cases) over breakthrough cases and spikes such as the one you reference could be placed in proper context.

From: Orion
04-Oct-21
Thanks for posting that Mike isn't it also true that over 80% of serious hospitalizations and deaths have been to people that are overweight?

From: Grey Ghost
04-Oct-21
"Thats not the stats I saw on Israel"

This is why attention to details is critical. First, your graph only goes thru Sept. 9. The information I posted is as of today. Second, your graph shows total Covid cases, which are clearly on a downward trend. The information I posted was for "serious cases", meaning hospitalizations. Again, that trend is spiraling downward, and are at 2 month lows.

When 15% of your population is unvaccinated, yet they represent 75% of the hospitalizations as of today, I can't think of a more definitive argument for the efficacy of the vaccines.

Matt

From: bigeasygator
04-Oct-21

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
Building on Matt’s comments, when you look at the COVID deaths over time, the current spike is not as bad as the spike you are showing in January, TGBow. Furthermore, your graph only shows case counts and doesn’t distinguish between unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals. The information I’ve seen from articles of late show that the 15-20% of the unvaccinated population accounts for over 50% of the serious cases and deaths. Like Mike rightfully pointed out, that is only part of the picture as well - understanding the demographics of the sick and dying (ages, comorbidities, other risk factors, etc) needs to be part of the conversation as well.

From: TGbow
04-Oct-21
Im not trying to disprove anything but I was pointing out they have a higher vaz rate % wise but still having a lot of Covid cases

From: Mike in CT
04-Oct-21

Mike in CT's Link
Dave,

I'm sorry that your first instinct is to resort to invectives and making charges that you never seem to get around to supporting with actual facts. I'm fine with anyone questioning anything I've posted when they do so in a respectful matter and offer contrary evidence for me to consider. That's all part of the ongoing learning process; you seem to eschew this avenue and try argument from authority as if authority confers expertise absent human failings. The arrogance required to hold this world view is truly staggering.

As to articles you've peer-reviewed you should really research your defenses better before offering ones that are easily shown to be lies. Yes, access to a full article does require membership but those not having membership can access an abstract; access to the full article can be purchased (one time on-line or a larger fee can be paid for broader access-I've posted a link to demonstrate this fact).

I have to admit I did get a chuckle out of your comment about "hundreds of thousands of physicians disagree...."; surely you realize this is not the entirety of physicians and you must be equally aware that the vast bulk of the remainder not only agree with what I've posted, they've been making the same claims throughout the course of the pandemic. Surely someone who's peer-reviewed papers could easily confirm this as well. Speaking of which, your claim about no method of proving peer-review is also misinformed; papers that are peer-reviewed elicit feedback to the authors; a simple phone call to any published author would provide the ability, if they are willing to obtain a full listing of all reviewers. How do I know this? I know this because I spoke with a reviewer of an article I had submitted as he had some questions involving the methodology employed and about the sample pool.

Your comportment also casts doubts on the validity of your credentials to be quite blunt; I have worked and am currently working with cardiothoracic surgeons, intensivists, infectious disease specialists, epidemiologists, immunologists and virologists who have the credentials they claim and something you sorely lack; humility.

Now I'm sure you'll not go gently into that good night so prior to any further diatribe let me assure you I have seen more than my share of bullies over the years and sadly, in the internet age more than my share of pretenders. This is the only response I have for you and any similarly afflicted; you may go now.

From: bigeasygator
04-Oct-21
Mike: Wow! You need to do a little more critical thinking and evaluation of the facts and truths. Your ignorance for a "healthcare professional" is astounding and disturbing. You and your fanboys on here continue to twist the facts and distort the truth to fit your narrative. And the fact that hundreds of thousands of physicians disagree with your "assertions" should be enough for you to take another look at your misguided views and opinions. I guess you and the other "experts" on this forum know more than this guy as well.

Let me translate this again for the rest of the forum...1% of the physicians of the world disagree with Mike.

For the idiots who are requesting links to my articles that I have peer reviewed, this is just another shining example of your ignorance. First, since reading comprehension is obviously not your strong point, I never said I reviewed studies relevant to COVID and I fail to see how studies I reviewed 15 yrs ago in the field of surgery are relevant here other than to deflect from the truth

I never assumed you reviewed studies relevant to COVID. What I did say is I don't for one second believe you're a doctor or a surgeon based on the simple facts you get wrong, the way you engage in dialogue, and the fact that you (if David Castro is your name) have zero footprint online related to any of the fields you say you contributed professionally - and on the off chance that you are indeed one, you are a very, very bad one. Posting stuff that you did publish or review, regardless of the specific subject, can provide you some level of credibility, which you have about zero of right now.

Again, where did you go to school? Where did you practice medicine? What type of surgeon were you?

Now, back to the ignorance at hand and this will be my last post here as it's clear I can't fix "stupid." But, I leave you with one last link showing Ivermectin as an ACCEPTED treatment option for COVID. Of course, this was posted by none other than the NIH and I'm sure BEG will somehow claim that they are not a reputable source or it is Russian propaganda because that's what he does every time his ignorance is exposed.

No, this table is indeed straight from the NIH. But as a self-proclaimed expert on these things, you would think you'd realize that Ivermectin is not approved. The table you posted to is a list of antiviral agents approved OR under evaluation, the key word here being or. As has been pointed out, ivermectin is being studied (ie, under evaluation) via multiple clinical trials. The word "accepted" has no clinical meaning (something you should know) - what is germane is the drug has not been approved or authorized by the FDA, but it is being studied. Again, basic facts that you fail to understand. Your ignorance is astounding.

For anyone that would like to see what the NIH recommended course of clinical care looks like for various patients (ie, hospitalized, non-hospitalized, critical care, etc), you can find summaries on the same website at the link below. You will notice ivermectin (not surprisingly) shows up nowhere.

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/management/clinical-management/

I'll issue a challenge to GG and BEG. I'll post a photo of my medical license proving my credentials and if I do, you agree to leave this forum for good and spread your propaganda elsewhere.

I'm not going to leave the forum, but feel free to provide more compelling proof of your credentials, because right now it's not looking good for you.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Oct-21
Nice try, Dave.

You said, " I have peer reviewed journal articles and studies". First, that implies they were your articles and studies that were peer reviewed, and were accepted for publication. Second, if they were actually articles and studies done by others that you simply reviewed, as you are now claiming, and they aren't relevant to the discussion, why did you mention them as part of your credentials?

IMO, you are a fraud of the worst kind. A guy posing as a medical expert, while spreading potentially dangerous misinformation to gullible people, like a pedophile dishing out candy to kids.

As for your silly challenge, I think I'll pass. I've been a member here for over 2 decades. I'm not going to let a newcomer, who has demonstrated he's not capable of honest and civil discussion, goad me into anything. Simply put, you aren't worth any more of my time or consideration.

Matt

04-Oct-21
If we have 75-80% vaccinated where the hell is the herd immunity?

From: Orion
04-Oct-21
It's out there it just doesn't get mentioned

From: Matt
04-Oct-21

Matt's Link
Just read the linked article titled "Brazil's tragic ivermectin frenzy is a warning to the US, experts say" chronicling the failure of Ivermectin to address COVID in Brazil despite its widespread availability/use, both as a prophylactic and to treat the disease.

From: Whitey
04-Oct-21
Rule followers don’t change science or anything in life. You have to go out of bounds of current thinking before you get anything to peer review. Thank god for the free thinkers they are rare these days.

From: Thornton
04-Oct-21
That article was garbage and written full of emotion. No where did it say ivermectin was given early, only that people continued to die in ICU. The 8 country analysis of ivermectin clearly stated it had to be given at first onset of symptoms and one on a ventilator, nothing helped. Also, taking roo much of anything will cause some sort of organ damage or failure.

From: Matt
04-Oct-21
"No where did it say ivermectin was given early, only that people continued to die in ICU."

The article says exactly that: 'Dr. Ana Carolina Antonio, who works at a government hospital in Porto Alegre, Brazil, told Insider many of her ICU patients took ivermectin in the spring - some trying to prevent COVID-19, others "to early treat their first symptoms."'

From: APauls
04-Oct-21
Well that went from "I have peer reviewed papers" to "I was part of the review on some papers" to "the papers were a long time ago, and my name probably isn't mentioned" real quick.

What I really don't understand - is why is he pushing so hard? What does he have to gain? Why the frantic spouting of lies? Is it just like some weird ego deal and he just wants to be listened to? So strange.

From: Thornton
04-Oct-21

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
One of the hospitals I work for posted this today on local news. 3 vaccinated patients out of 83 clearly is higher than "1 in every 5,000" that Biden was babbling about.

From: bigeasygator
04-Oct-21
Well Biden is an idiot. Those numbers are exactly in line with everything I’ve seen and been saying. Hospitalizations on the order of 90% unvaccinated vs vaccinated, ICU cases and deaths closer to 99%. I have yet to see a large healthcare institution publish anything significantly different. But I guess every hospital is in on the conspiracy too…

From: Matt
05-Oct-21
"One of the hospitals I work for posted this today on local news. 3 vaccinated patients out of 83 clearly is higher than "1 in every 5,000" that Biden was babbling about."

So, in summation: the vaccines work really well (the unvaccinated represent 96.4% of COVID positives and 100% of those in the ICU and on a vent per your stats), but not as well as Biden says. Is that the implication?

EDIT: researched the 1 in 5,000 stat and came back to post but BEG beat me to it. I now see that the conclusions are that the vaccines work really well and, while I still think Biden is an idiot, his mental deficiency is not the issue here.

From: bigeasygator
05-Oct-21
So, in summation: the vaccines work really well (the unvaccinated represent 96.4% of COVID positives and 100% of those in the ICU and on a vent per your stats), but not as well as Biden says. Is that the implication?

It gets better, Matt. I hadn’t heard the 1 in 5,000 quote so I looked it up after I made my last post. Biden (who is still an idiot) was speaking to the breakthrough infection rate (1 in 5,000 vaccinated individuals get infected each day). That statistic may or may not be true, but posting the breakdown of hospital cases by vaxed vs unvaxed has nothing to do with the 1 in 5,000 statistic. Apples and oranges.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Oct-21
I think Thornton must like the taste of crow. And yes, Biden is still an idiot.

Matt

From: Kannuck
05-Oct-21
"One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough about a topic to think you're right, but not enough to know you're wrong.

Essentially there are three categories of truth:

Personal truth - the truth that you believe whether it's true or not

Political truth - the truth that you voice to advance a political agenda - whether you personally believe it or not

Objective truth - which is true no matter what

All of us are susceptible to bias. Search engines on the internet are the epitome of confirmation bias.

The good thing about science is that it's true whether you believe in it or not.

A proper skeptic questions what they're unsure of but recognizes when VALID evidence is presented to change their mind."

Quotes from Neil deGrasse Tyson

From: Whitey
05-Oct-21
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether you believe in it or not.” False

“Science is an iterative process that attempts to remove opinion from the dialog by developing and accepting theories that best explain observation and experiment. Science is constantly seeking the truth, but it can not, by definition, prove anything to be true. Those who have an opinion that a theory is false have the burden of providing observation or experiment to falsify a theory, and the scientific method then demands that a better theory be developed that explains the new observations.”

From: bigeasygator
05-Oct-21
Neil Degrasse Tyson would agree with you, Whitey, as that part of the quote was taken out of context. The quote with more context reads:

“Once science has been established, once a scientific truth emerges from a consensus of experiments and observations, it is the way of the world...What I’m saying is, when different experiments give you the same result, it is no longer subject to your opinion. That’s the good thing about science: It’s true whether or not you believe in it. That’s why it works.”

From: TGbow
05-Oct-21
Im curious because I cant seem to find the stats online anuwhere...what is the survival rate of the flu compared to Covid?

From: bigeasygator
05-Oct-21

bigeasygator's Link
Im curious because I cant seem to find the stats online anuwhere...what is the survival rate of the flu compared to Covid?

By survival rate, I'm assuming you mean the rate of people who survive after contracting a disease. There is plenty of data out there to ascertain this. The link above is a CDC estimate of the cumulative burden estimates for the 2019-2020 season (which prior to COVID control measures was fairly representative). You can see there is an estimate of something like 39-56 mln cases and 24-62k deaths. Therefore the mortality rate is something like .04-.15%. Compare that with global COVID cases. We are around 5 mln deaths out of 240 mln cases (give or take). That's puts you around 1.6%. That is across all cases - it should be noted for certain demographics and accounting for certain risk factors, the disparity is even higher.

So COVID is 10 times as deadly as the flu when contracted. With that said, there is also evidential data that COVID is far more transmissible than the flu. Look to the previous year, when we implemented COVID control measures like social distancing, shutdowns, hygiene, disinfecting, etc. We had 300,000 COVID deaths with these control measures in place, yet we only had something like 700 flu deaths (compared to the 30-50k deaths on average).

So to say COVID is 10 times as deadly based on the mortality rate of cases is only part of the story. If it infects 10 times as many people, that needs to be accounted for too.

From: TGbow
05-Oct-21
Thanks Beg, I just couldn't find stats comparing the the 2

From: Treeline
05-Oct-21
BEG, your stats are only for those admitted to the hospital, not for everyone that gets it. A huge majority will not go and get admitted to the hospital with Covid.

I know a lot of people that have had it (both with and without the injection) and only my mother-in-law went to the hospital. Had TB and lung damage as a kid and ended up with pneumonia. Put her on steroids, ivermectin, azithromycin, and O2 mask and she was out in 3 days.

Based on the only closed test observations on the cruise ships at the beginning of this insanity, about 50% have no symptoms and have existing immunity. Of the 50% that had symptoms, over 80% had minor symptoms. Of the 10% of the total with more serious symptoms, less than 1% died. That was before there was any treatment for the “new” virus. And the average age on those cruise ships was over 70.

From: Whitey
05-Oct-21
BEG. The quote was from comments he made on Colberts show. He was later taken to task by other “scientists” for the use of the word “True” which are used both in and out of context examples. “Science is constantly seeking the truth, but it can not, by definition, prove anything to be true.” Newton’s theories on gravity were considered true for 200 years until Einstein came up with a better theory. Physics continues to go after Einstein’s theories everyday and do not accept them as true.

From: TGbow
05-Oct-21
One thing that converns me is the people that are having serious side effects from the vaccine..most are not being reported in the media

From: bigeasygator
05-Oct-21
BEG, your stats are only for those admitted to the hospital, not for everyone that gets it. A huge majority will not go and get admitted to the hospital with Covid.

Which stats? I’m fairly confident those are estimated total case counts both for the flu and for COVID, not hospitalizations.

The flu data comes from the CDC link which is definitely more than just hospitalizations (which is also included in the link).

The COVID cases are also total cases, not just hospitalizations. They include reported positive cases and government estimates. To my knowledge, there really isn’t a reliable dataset on COVID hospitalizations due to inconsistent reporting requirements.

From: KSflatlander
05-Oct-21
“Newton’s theories on gravity were considered true for 200 years until Einstein came up with a better theory.”

Einstein’s theory of relativity did not make Newtons laws untrue. Einstein expanded on them and furthered our understanding. It did not make them completely false.

That’s how science works. It is built into the system. It’s better than making s#%t up.

From: Matt
05-Oct-21

Matt's Link
"One thing that converns me is the people that are having serious side effects from the vaccine..most are not being reported in the media"

No offense intended, but you must not be looking very hard. The various severe side effects from the COVID vaccines are reported on the CDC website (see link) and a quick Google search turns up tens of article discussing them (https://www.google.com/search?q=covid+vaccine+side+effects&sxsrf=AOaemvKYl7BvazbaHuxJ1kdllZkSMm5gMA:1633453448142&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7gqKk4LPzAhVH6p4KHaGAAi4Q_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1536&bih=722&dpr=1.25).

When I last did a very simplistic, back-of-the-napkin comparison of COVID versus serious side effects of the vaccines , the math suggested you are roughly ~950x more likely to die from the disease than have a severe side effect from the vaccines.

From: TGbow
05-Oct-21
Matt, forget that I asked...Im at work and looking up stuff between task..yes, I guess I didnt look hard enough. Lots of stuff get asked on here that can be found on the internet. Never mind

From: Thornton
06-Oct-21
Last winter I was treating vaccine side effects almost daily. Very common to be symptomatic with fatigue, chest pain and a dozen other symptoms that made no sense. Most labs came back ok but I did have one guy with pneumonia that developed 7 days post vaccine. He was in good shape except for Parkinson's.

06-Oct-21
"There’s no money in ivermectin….. move along."

tell that to the folks who make ivermectin. they profit from the sale of every dose. theyd like nothing more than to massively expand their market all over the planet. same with the folks that make hydroxychloroquine, vitamin d and zink supplements, monoclonal antibodies, remdesivir and everything else thought to successfully treat covid19.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Oct-21

Grey Ghost's Link
Ricky,

I've never understood the "no money in Ivermectin" argument, either. Do these people think Merck has made and distributed Ivermectin to the world for over 40 years for free, out of the goodness in their hearts?

FYI, Merck's estimated annual sales of Ivermectin is $250-300 million. As you stated, I'm sure Merck would love nothing more than to have Ivermectin found to be an effective and approved treatment for Covid. Yet, their own scientists have concluded:

- No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;

- No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;

- A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.

That's from Merck's own online statement dated Feb 4, 2021. (see link)

Matt

From: bigeasygator
06-Oct-21
As you stated, I'm sure Merck would love nothing more than to have Ivermectin found to be an effective and approved treatment for Covid

Clearly that's not how it works, Matt. What they want to do is spend millions, if not billions, of dollars more to research, test, and scale up production on a new drug that may never find it's way to market. The last thing they want to do expand the market and increase sales of a drug that would require no development and that they're already set-up to produce.

And for anyone that can't tell, everything written above is dripping in sarcasm.

From: Whitey
06-Oct-21
Merck's new 'not Ivermectin' Covid-19 treatment, molnupiravir, costs $17.74 to produce - yet the company is charging the US government $712 for the treatment - a 40x markup, according to The Intercept, citing a report issued last week by the Harvard School of Public Health and King’s College Hospital in London.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Oct-21

Grey Ghost's Link
"Merck's new 'not Ivermectin' Covid-19 treatment, molnupiravir, costs $17.74 to produce - yet the company is charging the US government $712 for the treatment"

Seems like a pretty good deal considering:

" In January, the U.S. government agreed to pay $2.63 billion for 1.25 million doses of Regeneron’s monoclonal antibody cocktail, which works out to $2,100 per dose, and Gilead’s remdesivir can cost $3,100 for a 5-day course of treatment."

And to think, every US citizen can get vaccinated for free.

Matt

06-Oct-21
Free? That's not even funny. This is likely the most expensive vaccine in the history of vaccines.

From: TGbow
06-Oct-21
You can bet we paying for it...considering the government generates 0 dollars

From: Grey Ghost
06-Oct-21
That's true, TGbow, we absolutely did pay for the vaccines indirectly thru our tax dollars. The largest amount came when Trump's administration spent $18 billion for Project Warp Speed in order to fund the research, development, and distribution of the vaccines in record time. That works out to about $125 per taxpayer in the US. Of course, those of us in higher tax brackets paid more, while lower tax brackets paid less. Personally, I'm fine with that, and I applaud Trump's administration for their efforts.

Matt

From: TGbow
06-Oct-21
Either way we paying for it

From: Whitey
06-Oct-21
GG, you miss the point. If I am mostly paid in company stock am I more motivated to sell an $8 solution or a $740 solution even if the profit margin % is the same? Given my comp plan has performance metrics that include both top line and profit growth. I am more or less motivated to prove that my $8 solution would be of benefit? Just speculation of course as we just saw a Boeing CEO kill nearly 1000 people for that very reason.

From: bigeasygator
06-Oct-21
GG, you miss the point.

And if you're tasked with making smart economic decisions, would you want to sell a drug that you've already developed and have set-up infrastructure to produce or would you want to sell one that is going to require significantly more development, investment, and associated risk? Sure, incentives matter. But your economic model is a gross oversimplification of the decisions pharmaceuticals companies face and the factors that matter when making those decisions.

From: Whitey
06-Oct-21
I have a fiduciary responsibility to the stock holders of my company to maximize profit and to increase shareholder value. If I do not I could be in violation of my employment agreement and have to forfeit my stock options. I would sell the more profitable one every time. Especially if I have prepaid orders.

From: bigeasygator
06-Oct-21
I have a fiduciary responsibility to the stock holders of my company to maximize profit and to increase shareholder value.

Expected discounted free cash flow, not profits, are what determines share price.

I would choose a product that has no risk of development, that I can sell for zero investment, and returns a billion in profit in the next year over one that has only a 50% chance of passing trials, requires a billion dollars in CAPEX to deliver production, but I expect to deliver two billion in profit a year from now.

From: Whitey
06-Oct-21
Where do you think the cash flow comes from? At the stage of the game Merck is right now the CEO knows exactly what the chances of FDA approval are. They are selling billions of ivermectin all over the world already with no Covid studies confirming efficacy. I I am guessing they are operating at capacity and at the same time they are ramping up to produce molnupiravir. As CEO I have no reason to shoot an $700 solution in the head if I already know Ivermectin is not a solution. And I am selling the shit out of it.

From: bigeasygator
06-Oct-21
Where do you think the cash flow comes from?

Cash flow comes from (and goes to) a lot of different things, unlike profit which includes non-cash items and minimizes capital costs associated with businesses.

At the stage of the game Merck is right now the CEO knows exactly what the chances of FDA approval are...As CEO I have no reason to shoot an $700 solution in the head if I already know Ivermectin is not a solution.

That, I feel is, is much closer to the reality and it has little to do with the relative costs of the drugs viewed in a vacuum. They probably have a good sense that Ivermectin is a crap drug regarding COVID treatment and to remain competitive and actually take market share they need something far more effective. Hence, molnupiravir.

And at the end of the day, they're going to need to price it competitively as it appears there are plenty of other antivirals coming to market that can easily take margin.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Oct-21
Whitey,

Estimated annual sales revenue to Merck for Ivermectin is $250-300 million, not "billions". I never thought you'd resort to hyperbole.

And I understood your point perfectly. And I still disagree. Merck is selling their new treatment for what the free market will bear, which is apparently $700 per treatment. Isn't capitalism wonderful?

Matt

From: Whitey
06-Oct-21
“Estimated annual sales revenue to Merck for Ivermectin is $250-300 million “ in 1987 I assumed it had gone up in the past 34 years. I could be wrong but if it is still that low then it strengthens the motivation to let the media and policies kill it as a Covid solution.

“And I still disagree. Merck is selling their new treatment for what the free market will bear, which is apparently $700 per treatment. Isn't capitalism wonderful?l And that wasn’t the point. The point was questioning motivation to not push an $8 solution.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Oct-21
A $8 free market solution doesn't exist right now. Apparently, the cheapest treatment is worth $700 on the free market, regardless of profit margins.

Matt

From: RK
06-Oct-21
It’s why you retired at 45 GG

But that’s a different issue !

From: Whitey
06-Oct-21
That’s what we are debating ,the motivation t o kill a possible $8 solution. I believe all 3 vaccines are actually cheaper at under $250 hard cost each and the most expensive treatment at $18,000 per.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Oct-21
Whitey,

Who is trying to kill a $8 treatment?

Matt

From: Whitey
06-Oct-21
Theoretically Anyone not investigating with all resources and speed weather or not Ivermectin is effective in the treatment of Covid. No idea if it is or is not but I was simply making the case that there is ample motivation to stall or not investigate. The developing world could sure use such a cost effective treatment and that alone would be a big benefit to the first world.

From: Matt
06-Oct-21

Matt's Link
There have been a lot of clinical trials to determine whether Ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID and none has found a statistically significant benefit. But maybe if we keep doing trial after trial they will find one.

What is Einstein's definition of insanity?

For those how live in a cave, per Einstein: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

You could also look at the results they had in Brazil where many used Ivermectin both as a prophylactic and a treatment for COVID.

Spoiler alert: of countries over 10M in population Brazil is #3 in the world in deaths/1M population.

From: KSflatlander
07-Oct-21
“The developing world could sure use such a cost effective treatment and that alone would be a big benefit to the first world.”

How about something preventative like an effective vaccine.

From: DanaC
07-Oct-21

DanaC's Link
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809

From: TGbow
07-Oct-21
Lol..we really have some gullible folks in this world

From: Thornton
08-Oct-21

Maybe I got well because I took the livestock dose?

From: DanaC
08-Oct-21
" The developing world could sure use such a cost effective treatment and that alone would be a big benefit to the first world. " " The developing world could sure use such a cost effective PREVENTATIVE and that alone would be a big benefit to the first world. "

Fixed it. Hint, there IS one - it's called a 'VACCINE'.

From: spike78
08-Oct-21
Yeah and that vaccine has killed probably north of 13,000 people. How many died from Ivermectin?

From: DanaC
08-Oct-21
The point is, how many people did it *save*?

"I took it and I got better" proves *nothing* - unless you can't understand 'post hoc fallacy'.

From: TGbow
08-Oct-21
If you had Covid like I did theu still want you to get the vaccine. Natural immunity was always considered before but not with Covid

From: DanaC
08-Oct-21
Are you taking for granted that surviving one variant protects you from all of them? Better to avoid. What ever happened to the old idea that 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure'?

From: spike78
08-Oct-21
If the vaccine works so well then why is everyone that is vaccinated worried about the unvaccinated?

From: Grey Ghost
08-Oct-21

Grey Ghost's Link
I found this article fascinating. It was written in Feb, 1957 by a MD about the polio vaccine which was only 3 years old at the time. Scroll down to his conclusions paragraph and note the similar concerns and skepticisms he had at that time to those some have with the Covid vaccines now. Here's one of his conclusions:

"The failure of this vaccine to prevent disease and at times death in certain vaccinated individuals and its apparent inability to reduce the number of carriers clearly indicate that polio will not be "wiped out" by this vaccine."

Does that sound familiar?

Now fast forward to 1961, the vaccine had reduced the number of polio cases in the US from nearly 30,000 in 1955 to only 161. Today, we haven't had a single polio case in the US for 30 years, all due to a vaccine with a initial clinical efficacy similar to the Covid vaccines

"History does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

Matt

From: BowenAero
08-Oct-21

BowenAero's embedded Photo
BowenAero's embedded Photo

From: spike78
08-Oct-21
Matt how do we know the vaccine wiped out Polio and not just naturally?

From: DanaC
08-Oct-21
"If the vaccine works so well then why is everyone that is vaccinated worried about the unvaccinated? "

Because they understand that vaccines increase resistance but they don't make you bullet-proof. Still...

From: Grey Ghost
08-Oct-21
Seriously, Spikey?

08-Oct-21
The polio vaccine (Salk) being referenced in the 1957 article was replaced in 1960 with the Sabin version. Interesting story of two pioneers in vaccines with big egos and a bitter rivalry. 200,000 doses of Salk's vaccine, which used Formaldehyde to inactivate the virus, were produced wrong and resulted in giving 40,000 kids Polio.

From: TGbow
08-Oct-21
Danac, you have a good point there...but, I recently had Covid in August. I can understand getting a vaccination later...there will be other variants. My problem is the mandate and the fact that natural immunity is not even considered. If I want to keep my job I will have to get it. People should be able to choose if they want it.

From: DanaC
09-Oct-21
"My problem is the mandate and the fact that natural immunity is not even considered."

Ok, but the first is a *political* choice, not a *health* choice, and the second is uncertain. I've had the 'flu' but I don't think it gave me any 'natural immunity'. I get the flu shot every year. Some years I have a mild 'reaction' but that beats ten days of hell. I had 'chicken pox' as a kid and years later had a 'shingles' eruption. Bet on it, I got the shot for that!

While I respect the political theory, it's not always easy to square 'personal choice' with 'public good'. One thing I feel confident in ids that the more people who do get vaccinated, even if we never reach 100%, the sooner we'll all be safe*R*. I did my part, and it seems that the holdouts are sometimes grasping at scientific-sounding straws or searching out anecdotal evidence to rationalize their choice, rather than suck it up and just get the dam' shot. And like all rationalization, it gets *tiresome*.

From: Treeline
09-Oct-21
DanaC,

Obviously you have given up your freedom, willingly, for the “promise” of “safety” by those in power.

Perhaps a review of how well that kind of misplaced faith works out for people throughout history would be worthwhile.

There still remain people in this country who cherish their God Given Rights and Constitutionally protected freedom from oppressive government. They are not driven by the FEAR to willingly give up those Rights and Freedoms.

From: txhunter58
09-Oct-21
“Yeah and that vaccine has killed probably north of 13,000 people“

Yep what about them??

Antibiotics kill people every year. What about them?

Anesthesia kills people every year. What about them?

Driving a car kills people every year. What about them?

Skiing kills people every year. What about them?

Covid kills at least 1 per 100 infections. Vaccine kills maybe 1 in a million.

You can do the math. The vaccine is a “calculated risk” just like every time you get behind the wheel

But I absolutely believe in the right of each person to make their own choices. I can’t change that and in our free society, I support that right. That is why some of us succeed while others fail. That is why some of us live while others die.

I am heading out today to take a young friend hunting who is seeking solace in the woods. You see, his unvaccinated father just died of Covid. Guess what he told his son before he died?

From: txhunter58
09-Oct-21

From: RK
09-Oct-21
I hope he told him I Love You

From: DanaC
09-Oct-21
Treeline, obviously you don't respect MY choice, *freely made*, but strike a noble pose as a freedom fighter. Hypocritical bullcrap. Unlike you, I'm not worried about looking 'afraid'. What you call 'fear' I call 'prudence'.

From: Nemophilist
09-Oct-21

Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Nemophilist's embedded Photo
https://noqreport.com/2021/10/09/more-than-200000-have-already-died-from-the-covid-jab-in-the-us/

From: DanaC
09-Oct-21

DanaC's Link
Oh great, an *OP-ED* from Dr. Joseph Mercola, who is rated as the nations' top spreader of Covid MIS-information. Frank, just because you don't check your sources doesn't mean the rest of us won't.

https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enforcement-and-criminal-investigations/warning-letters/mercolacom-llc-607133-02182021

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