How Far How Long Challenge
Mule Deer
I killed this buck yesterday morning during my first sit in a stand I hung the day before. It was a 25 yard downhill shot. The buck was quartering away. My arrows are 410 grains traveling at 280 FPS with 100 grain Montec 3-blade fixed broad heads.
The shot was a complete pass-thru. In the next 2 posts I will show the entrance and exit wounds. I thought it would fun to hear your best guesses as to how far the buck went after the shot, and how long did he take to die? The answers may, or may not, surprise you.
I will post the answers later tonight.
Matt
Here's the entrance wound.
Here's the exit wound. The arrow also sliced the off-side front leg.
Sorry, I can't get the images to rotate.
Matt
Less than 15 yards and less than 20 seconds.
Was this a guided hunt?….
Was it eating from a bait pile? If not it went 50 yards and was dead in five seconds.
looks good to me
75 yds and 30 sec
less than 100 yards and died within 5 minutes
45 yards, 15 seconds, no peas inside the femoral.
300 yards 1 hour to expire.
50 yards and dead on arrival.
He could have gotten woozy, tipped over without taking a step, dead in less than 30 seconds.
Or he could have made a death run, less than 100 yards, dead in less than 30 seconds.
Looks like liver and 1 lung....with the leg hit he probably bolted. I`ll go 750 yard....2 hours.
Nice buck.
Shot my doe this year with that exact same trajectory except for the entrance and exit were opposite. I hit heart, liver, 1 lung, and stomach. She ran 15-20 yards and lasted 15-20 seconds.
Less than 50 yds 30 seconds
70 yds; less than 1 minute
Here's 2 more visual clues from inside the chest cavity. This is the entrance wound. As you can see, it slipped in-between the first and second ribs, missing the guts and liver.
Here's the exit, just behind the heart.
Lots of variables to consider to be able to do better than a WAG. Did you get both lungs or just one? Did you hit the heart? These are the main two that would affect my guess. I also think the leg hit would cause him to bolt and cover more ground. Also what kind of cover was near by?...
Obviously an effective shot but probably more so if it would have been a few inches further forward.
I'll go with 300 yards traveled and took 45 minutes to expire.
That's a good looking buck. Congratulations to you for killing him!!!
Edit: The above pictures were not up when I made my guess. I guessed the heart was not hit so I went with further travelled and longer lived. Big question now is did you get both lungs?
It didn't go far, and it didn't take long.
Congratulations. It looks like a great shot, but I am not a fan of the G5 Montec. G5 makes many great products, several of which I use. I just don't think the Montec is one of them. The animals typically travel further and leave very little blood trail in my experience. And don't get me started on sharpening them... Due to the erratic results when using them, I'll decline to guess.
Greg, both lungs were deflated by the time I gutted him. The heart, liver and guts were not hit.
Matt
I guess not far. You shot him with a COC head. He probably took a few hops, looked back and tipped over. So less than 10 yds and less than 10 seconds.
Iv see that very hit many times some went a long ways and some not. I'll say 118 yards and 3 1/2 min.
Big deer, small cut, i wouldnt think the lungs were devastated as it was a hard quarter. Gonna guess 250 yards and 1/2 hour. But it very well coulda been shorter and sooner. The title and purpose of post has me leaning towards not a short deal as most would guess.
Less than your elk..,too soon? too soon?
75 yards... 60 seconds to 110 seconds
I too shot a nice mule deer buck yesterday morning. Not quite as much angle but took out both lungs and was surprised how far he got. Rutted up, mine made it 200yds and 45 seconds. With the harder angle I’m gonna say 250 and 3 minutes. We’re there doe with him and did he run off with them? I believe that’s what got mine to 200 yds. And he stopped after hit to look back at 75.
Shug, not everyone is 100% on Elk like you are. Be nice
~125 yards, down for the count in 30 seconds.
Was there any other deer with him?
Love the concept of this thread. I’ve got a good “elk” How far how long from this year. I’ll start it after yours is revealed GG. ;-).
Cnelk, there were 3 does with him.
Hard to really guess, too many variables. I've had arrow hit deer drop in there tracks from a heart shot and heart shot deer that didn't bleed for 60 yards and laid there dead. The looks of this hit, he may have not known he was shot (happened 2 times to me) as there is no bone breakage. I'd say 1 min and walked off 40 yards.
I’m going to say you barely clipped the entrance side lung and it stayed inflated for awhile. The buck went 400 yards and after a 90 seconds fell over. ;) Nice buck
That is a solid cross both lungs hit. I would guess 80 yards at most and less than 2 minutes to die. Nothing lasts long without lungs…
80 yds. , 60 sec ( I am thinking that from your teaser statement regarding "might be surprised" the numbers could be much higher or possibly even way shorter)
I shot one like that last year it ran maybe 120 yards. Mine hit ribs though. So probably more shock.
GG the last pic shows how the more we shot towards the front. The area above the spine is about 1/3 the size of the chest.
Walked 10 yards. Dead in 12 seconds. Does kept him preoccupied.
Did you find the buck? We need more clues to know if he was recovered.
Congrats, Shawn. That's a beauty, and a true trophy, especially with a selfbow.
Do you have any guesses to contribute to this thread?
Matt
65 yards less than 10 sec.
First, thank you to those who congratulated me.
After the hit, the buck bounded 7 yards, and stopped underneath an overhanging pine tree limb, offering me no follow up shot. I could see his head, but his body was obscured by the tree. He never took another step. His does stayed close, and I don’t think he felt much pain from the hit, so that may have contributed to the short distance he traveled.
Here’s the part that still baffles me. For 10 minutes he stood there looking around, and breathing with his mouth open. Then he laid down with a heavy groan, like an old man sitting down in a chair. For the next 40 minutes he laid there, with his head up, and I could hear his breathing become more labored. Then he tried to stand up, but only stumbled and went back down. 8 minutes later, his head went down and he took his last gurgled breath. So he died almost a full hour after I shot him!
When I saw my arrow disappear exactly where I was aiming, like most of you, I thought to myself “dead deer in seconds”. I’m still shocked he lasted so long. Mother Nature never fails to amaze me.
Thanks for playing along, gentlemen.
Matt
He would have died faster had he ran. Standing still he wasn’t pumping blood.
The does stayed close for most of the time he was down. Alerted, but still curious. One cautiously came back and actually sniffed my arrow that was stuck in the ground. When she finally decided to leave is when the buck tried to get up but couldn't.
Matt
That’s why he didn’t go far.
You should’ve mentioned the does in the beginning
"You should’ve mentioned the does in the beginning"
But that would've gave away half of the challenge. And all the "dead in seconds" guesses would still be wrong. ;-)
Matt
I never cease to be amazed by what I learn on these forums. Never would've guessed that deer would've lived more than a few minutes after a double lung shot.
You didn’t supply all of the info that transpired.
Maybe do that next time
Nice buck! Great shot. Late to the game on this. But I was going to guess 75yds and a couple minutes at most. It's amazing how some animals go down so fast and others go on forever. The last deer I shot was quartering to me hard. I aimed just inside upper leg joint. Hit right where I was aiming. Didn't get great penetration. Finally caught up to him 1.25 miles later and got another arrow in him. The first arrow just got to the heart. When I opened him up to see where 1st shot hit. I found the broadhead in his heart, but only about the front third of broadhead poked into it.
Interesting experience. Nice buck- Congrats !!
Great to hear the stories of things that didn’t go as expected. “You really never know“ is a fantastic antidote to “There’s no effing way”.
I am inclined to agree that had he taken off hard, he would have bled out in a hurry… It just makes sense. Under Sympathetic response conditions, all of the blood flow is directed towards the vital organs, which would drive up the blood pressure in the lungs, which would increase the rate at which he bled out.
And I would say “good on you” for waiting him out. The whole thing really highlights the importance of the old advice to wait 45 minutes before you do anything. Yeah, sure if you hear him crash hard or see him go down, that’s different, but just think what might have happened if you had bumped him from that first bed. That has never worked out well for me. I haven’t lost any yet, but I have pushed my luck (by assuming too much) on at least three occasions… and I think it might be a good idea to stop doing that.
My brother had a somewhat similar experience a few years back when he shot a cow Elk high through both lungs, and she just basically didn’t react at all. She just stood there and got wobbly, losing control of a few sphincters in the process, but didn’t bleed out externally and didn’t run. When she finally walked off with the herd, she left no blood trail and he never saw her again.
Yeah, she might have lived, but I really don’t think so. A double lung seems to be pretty fatal.
Thank you for a challenging a conventional wisdom with a reality check.
I think what some hunters don't realize is puncturing a lung isn't like popping a balloon. Lungs can and do heal from minor punctures, kind of like using that Fix-a-Flat goop in a tire with a slow leak.
Matt
Firstly congrats on the buck!! Second, thanks for sharing an interesting experience.
As for the guessing, it was never going to be more than a guess. You could shoot three deer in the 100% identical spot and have three different death scenarios. There’s just too many variables involved. Because you said we’d be surprised I knew it was either going to be a quicker death than expected, or longer than expected. Guess it was the latter.
Congratulations on a great buck Matt! Great thread, interesting to read all the guesses. Like you said, these animals always amaze us.
"Thank you for a challenging a conventional wisdom with a reality check."
"Congratulations on a great buck Matt! Great thread, interesting to read all the guesses."
You're welcome. And thanks for your kind words, gentlemen. I enjoyed it , especially how definitive some of the wrong guesses were. I would have been one of those folks too, had I not witnessed the outcome with my own eyes.
And Cnelk, I'll be sure my next challenge meets with your approval before posting it. LOL.
Matt
By the way, GG - how was the blood trail leading to and around that tree where he held up?
Everything you posted would lead person to expect that you would’ve been able to hear the blood pouring out onto the ground… Except for the whole not dying for an hour part! ;)
But it looks like the arrow passed through several inches of brisket meat, which would certainly reduce the flow rate. I’m definitely surprised that there wasn’t more air flowing into the thorax from that entrance wound, though…
Corax,
There was only a few drops of blood in the 7 yards the buck traveled. Admittedly, I didn't spend much time searching, since I knew exactly where the buck went down. There also wasn't as much blood as I'd expect in the area that he laid down. When I gutted him, it appeared the vast majority of the buck's blood pooled in his chest cavity, which is consistent with the your "sympathetic response" theory.
I also think it's understated how a relatively painless hit can effect an animal's response after the shot. My arrow basically hit nothing but hide and lung tissue. With the speed and location that my arrow zipped thru him, I doubt he felt much more pain than slicing your finger with a razor blade. Had my arrow broken a rib or 2, hit his leg bone, or remained lodged in his body, I'm sure the outcome would have been completely different.
Matt
"And Cnelk, I'll be sure my next challenge meets with your approval before posting it."
You'll probably still leave some key facts out
Cnelk,
You still don't get it. The whole point of this thread was to demonstrate you can't predict the results based solely on shot location, and I think the majority of the guesses prove that. A few guys picked up on my purpose, and my hat is off to them.
But thanks for your constructive critique, and your congratulations.
Matt
I shot a whitetail doe just about the same and ended up shooting her again the next day so you never know.
I shot a whitetail doe just about the same and ended up shooting her again the next day so you never know.
Thanks for posting this, and it really makes one think. If I were to guess, it took a long time for the entrance side lung to collapse and probably was only damaged along the periphery. Not nearly as much bleeding In that scenario to fill up the chest cavity and collapsed along. A person or a deer can live a long time with one lung. Did you examine the actual damage to the lungs, or just note that they were collapsed? And you are right, things don't always turn out the way that they seem. I decimated on lung on a Cape Buffalo, and you would be amazed how far it went. Had a similar shot as yours on a cape Buffalo cow- and it only went around 50 yards and laid down. 20 minutes later I snuck up and put another in her at 30 because it was getting dusky out. Still had enough in her to make it to her feet and charge 15 yards toward me before collapsing into a small tree that she hit. Still took probably another 15 minutes for her to expire.
I told my son deer are kinda like people...some are weenies and some are tough sob's...kinda tongue in cheek.
But I shot a nice Wisconsin 8 point some years ago that flat out amazed me. He came in to my grunt call with ears laid back and hackles up...looked to be spoiling for a fight. I was in a tree stand, about 12 feet high, and shot him as he was walking through a flooded marsh, at 15 yards...in standing water a few inches deep.
Shot him with a 63lb Black Widow recurve, cedar arrows, and a SHARP 2 blade Zwickey Delta.
It was a double lung center punch, pass through,with my arrow intact buried in the ground. He busted straight ahead about 40 yards, stopped, looked around, and laid down on a raised spot of marsh grass, and acted like nothing was wrong. After about 10 to 20 seconds, he let out a loud, long cough...I'm thinking...he's done.
A few more seconds and 2 more of those long coughs...this was a new one for me!
Then...he stood back up and walked about 20 yards out of that marsh grass into thick red brush. I couldn't believe it!
I looked down into that standing water he ran through, saw my arrow sticking out of the ground, and the amount of blood in the water looked like I was chumming sharks! I was no kid at this time, tagged a LOT of deer, but this was a new one.
Finally, I climbed down and walked to where he laid down and found a couple blood clots the size of my forearm he'd hacked up, along with lots of blood on the ground. I was utterly mystified!
Trailing further I found him just a few yards in that red brush. Short trail, maybe 75 yards, and I'm guessing maybe 10 minutes from shot to his disappearing into the brush...maybe more, I really didn't time it.
I'd say HE was one of those tough sob's!
Impossible to guess every animal is different just like people some just have more heart ,desire or will to live than others. I litterly blew the heart out of a big buck with a 7mm mag at 50 yards & he ran 400 yards down the mountain with a softball size hole where his heart was.
Should have used an expandable. ;-)
Congrats on a beauty of a buck!
I was late to the party and didn't get to play along, but I never could've guessed that outcome. Just goes to prove that you just never know. Seems hard to believe that he could live that long with both lungs collapsed, but I've seen other bucks defy belief.
Thanks for sharing! Great shot on a great buck, congratulations!
He made it all the way to the scene of the crash! Congrats, fine buck buddy
It’s because Montec are DULL broadheads. They are dull right out of the package. Don’t believe me? Go check. Every time I have a bowhunter come to camp with Montec heads they are dull. Now throw in cheap steel that dulls even more after just passing through the hide of an animal they really show how poor a head they are.
I knew someone wouldn't be able to resist blaming the outcome on the broad head. LOL.
FYI, Mike, I've been using Montecs for 20-plus years, and they have never disappointed me. If I do my job well, they do theirs. People who complain about them being dull don't understand blade design and edge angles. With 60 degree edge angles, you will never get a Montec shaving sharp, and that's by design. They are designed to punch thru hide, bone and flesh, like a leather punch or an axe. That's also what makes them more durable than most broad heads.
Anyway, thanks for contributing to the thread.
Matt
So one lunger then....they can live a long time on one lung.
He must not have made you...and it shows the advantage of a cut on contact head [Montec is borderline in that regard] they don't know they have been hit.
Most of the animals I shoot with a 2 blade don't know what happened, they typically take a few quick steps like yours did...and then take a look around, dying right there.
I think its a big advantage to using those COC heads vs the short chisel heads or the over the top mechs that get them running off like their tail is on fire.
>
The design of the Montec makes it a great broadhead. That is why several others have the similar design -VPA- Hell razors - Magnus SS snuffers to name a few. It wasn't the broadhead design at all, it's a mystery but he is dead!
Matt, we only shoot about about 50 animals per year with a bow in my Outfitting business so I guess I’m not qualified to have an opinion on broadheads?! Dull broadheads like a Montec head often make for long and very minimal blood trails even when an animal is hit perfectly. A razor sharp head made from good steel that doesn’t easily dull will never have an outcome like you had, I guarantee it. You had a terrible experience that never should have happened, you have no good explanation for it, I have a perfectly good explanation from hundreds of bow kills and yet you refuse to change your opinion, that seems odd to me?
Just one example is when we had a hunter shoot a moose through the centre of both lungs and that moose went 400 yds with almost no blood trail. It was shot with a normally deadly Iron Will broadhead but it was dull from being shot through a target a dozen times or more. It was still a very durable head, able to punch thru hide, bone and flesh, like a leather punch or an axe but dull as heck and it sure as hell took forever to kill that moose!
No animal should be shot with a broadhead that isn’t shaving sharp, and that sharpness needs to be retained throughout the body cavity of an animal, no matter the head design.
Razor sharp cuts vessels that a less sharp blade will push aside. The more vessels the blades cut the faster the animal dies.
"The design of the Montec makes it a great broadhead. That is why several others have the similar design -VPA- Hell razors - Magnus SS snuffers to name a few."
The difference is only the Montec is made from a molded, sintered steel. No thanks.
I shot an impala in Africa in 2019. Perfect placement, double lung, 100 grain VPA that popped hairs off my arm before the shot ( after the shot it did hit a tree and wasn’t nearly sharp enough at that point). However the arrow hit a tree on the other side of the impala, stopping penetration just after the fletched end entered the body cavity. The impala dropped like a rock, rolled over the arrow breaking the pointy end off cleanly evenly with the body. He death twitched a few times, we both smiled and starting putting things away but then he got up and walked away into the bush veld. We found him alive and not very well 4 hours later and 500 yards from the first shot. The PH, at my request, finished him with a rifle. He’s been a PH for 25 years, has guided multiple dangerous game hunts and had never seen anything like it.
The only thing we could figure is the arrow plugged the wound channel and kept the lungs from collapsing and hemorrhaging. Weird stuff happens but it sure did cause me to loose confidence in VPA heads.
You're a little late to the game, Nick Nick.
Mike, you're entitled to your opinions just like me. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them, however. You're not the only one who has outfitted and guided dozens of bow hunts a year. I only did it for 3 years, but that was enough for me.
Here's pictures of a buck I shot 2 years ago with the exact same arrow and Montec head. He bounded 15 yards, stopped, then toppled over in 15 seconds. That outcome was consistent with dozens of animals I've killed with Montecs. This year's outcome was a first for me, and I don't think it was because of the broad head.
First pic is the entrance hole.
Matt
Yes Matt, a dull broadhead will still kill animals quickly most of the time if they are hit perfectly. It will probably do it 90% of the time, but to purposely shoot a broadhead that is dull right out of the package is irresponsible at best. All broadheads should be shaving sharp before being shot at an animal. I can’t believe that is even up for debate?!
I shot a 8-point buck this fall with a Montec. Watched him run to the edge of the bush (60 yards) and then walk into the bush and out of sight. Hardly any blood. Never pushed as I thought shot was too far back. Gave him 5-hours and found very minimal blood in bush for 10 yards and then nothing? My search circles got larger and after a full hour plus of searching found some more blood 60 yards from last blood and found him stone dead 15 yards further in some thick stuff. It was a centre punch double-lung shot and it puzzled me why so little blood?........until I felt the sharpness of my broadhead and it was super dull. The other three in my quiver were the same. Big mistake on my part not checking them before my last minute decision to hunt on first outing of year. Arrows were in quiver over the summer from Spring turkey and were sharp in the spring. Dulled over time..possibly a bit of moisture and poor steel? I was very lucky to find him and will never make that mistake again.
Mike, I never claimed to
" purposely shoot a broadhead that is dull right out of the package". I religiously sharpen all my Montecs before ever shooting them at an animal, even out of the box. Afterwards, they are as sharp as you can get a 60 degree edge. But then, you can't seem to grasp the concept of an edge that is designed to chop, not slice. I'd provide links to educate you, but I know it would be a waste of time.
I think the reason for this years outcome has been touched upon earlier. The entrance side lung was only nicked, allowing it to still function in a limited capacity. Since the buck wasn't alerted by the shot, and he only took a few steps before bedding down, his heart rate remained low, which allowed his limited respiratory and circulatory systems to keep him alive for longer than most of would expect.
Matt
“With 60 degree edge angles, you will never get a Montec shaving sharp, and that's by design.”
Your quote Matt, not mine. You shouldn’t be shooting a broadhead that isn’t shaving sharp, just a weird bowhunting thing I go by.
And to have to sharpen a broadhead right out of the package?! Does it say that on the package? That these heads need to be sharpened before use? Kind of makes my point for me…
Mike, try to sharpen an axe blade shaving sharp without changing the steep factory edge angle. It won't happen, nor would you want it to. If you put a shallow razor-like edge on an axe, it would be worthless after the first chop because the edge would fold over. The same concept applies to a broad head with 60 degree edge angles. They simply aren't designed to have a razor thin/sharp edge.
Now, I'd be happy to debate if a broad head should be better at slicing than chopping if you want. Bear in mind, bow hunters have been killing animals for centuries with hand chipped stone heads, that are about as sharp as a butter knife. How could that be?
Matt
Congrats Matt on a great buck!!
I shot Montecs for a handful of years before switching to VPA heads.
The only difference I seen was the VPA’s seemed to sharpen easier.
A 60 degree edge is weird to the touch. When they are sharp they do not feel like they are sharp. I always like the rubber band test for seeing how sharp I can get them.
One of the best things a COC like these has to offer is practice with them then sharpen and in the quiver they go.
“ bow hunters have been killing animals for centuries with hand chipped stone heads, that are about as sharp as a butter knife. How could that be?”
You’re wrong on that one, Matt…
A properly knapped stone head is vastly sharper than steel can be made to be. Scanning electron micrographs don’t lie.
I’m not saying that I could not manufacture an incredibly lousy stone head, but the guys who know what they’re doing? Those fracture lines separate the material at essentially a molecular level, and you just can’t get anywhere close to that with steel.
Which is why eyeball surgeons use obsidian scalpels. The cleaner the cut, the less scarring results, so that’s the priority.
Big Mistake to compare a centuries-old artifact to a head that a skilled craftsman created last week.
Grey Ghost,
Congrats on a nice buck!
That buck looks like he had zero fat on him? Do you think he was run down from the rut or is that common in your area? Most plains bucks I shoot have about an inch of fat on their hinds and some over their backbone and ribs.
Quinn,
Most of the bucks I've killed during the rut around here have had very little fat on them. This year's buck did have about a 1/2" layer on his hinds, but that was about it. I also think there was less feed for the deer this year due to the extremely dry summer and fall. I had to start supplementing my horses feed a lot earlier than normal this year. They had the natural grasses grazed down to the nub probably a month earlier than normal.
Matt
Frankly, I am surprised that GG doesn't hunt with flint knapped broadheads...
