Mathews Inc.
45-70govt or 450 bushmaster
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
carcus 14-Nov-21
greg simon 14-Nov-21
MA-PAdeerslayer 14-Nov-21
carcus 14-Nov-21
Wildan2 14-Nov-21
DanaC 14-Nov-21
badguybuster 14-Nov-21
Kevin Dill 14-Nov-21
Kevin Dill 14-Nov-21
carcus 14-Nov-21
Kevin Dill 14-Nov-21
ohiohunter 14-Nov-21
Bake 14-Nov-21
BTM 14-Nov-21
Bowfreak 14-Nov-21
Kevin Dill 14-Nov-21
Rickm 14-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 14-Nov-21
SteveB 14-Nov-21
Missouribreaks 14-Nov-21
rattling_junkie 14-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 14-Nov-21
Kevin Dill 14-Nov-21
DanaC 14-Nov-21
badguybuster 14-Nov-21
carcus 14-Nov-21
carcus 14-Nov-21
woodguy65 14-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 14-Nov-21
Coyote 65 14-Nov-21
Nick Muche 14-Nov-21
peterk1234 14-Nov-21
rattling_junkie 14-Nov-21
Zbone 14-Nov-21
LBshooter 14-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 15-Nov-21
DanaC 15-Nov-21
DanaC 15-Nov-21
BULELK1 15-Nov-21
Kevin Dill 15-Nov-21
carcus 15-Nov-21
M.Pauls 15-Nov-21
scentman 15-Nov-21
spike78 15-Nov-21
Boris 15-Nov-21
LBshooter 15-Nov-21
LBshooter 15-Nov-21
spike78 15-Nov-21
carcus 15-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 15-Nov-21
Chris S 15-Nov-21
timex 15-Nov-21
Chris S 15-Nov-21
Chris S 15-Nov-21
timex 15-Nov-21
Bake 15-Nov-21
carcus 15-Nov-21
timex 15-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 15-Nov-21
timex 15-Nov-21
timex 15-Nov-21
timex 15-Nov-21
[email protected] 16-Nov-21
DanaC 16-Nov-21
Rocky D 16-Nov-21
spike78 16-Nov-21
Kevin Dill 16-Nov-21
DanaC 16-Nov-21
Rocky D 16-Nov-21
timex 16-Nov-21
Bake 16-Nov-21
Bake 16-Nov-21
Bake 16-Nov-21
Ken Taylor 16-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 16-Nov-21
spike78 16-Nov-21
DanaC 16-Nov-21
timex 16-Nov-21
DanaC 16-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 16-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 16-Nov-21
timex 16-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 16-Nov-21
spike78 16-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 16-Nov-21
timex 16-Nov-21
timex 16-Nov-21
spike78 16-Nov-21
Zbone 16-Nov-21
timex 16-Nov-21
timex 16-Nov-21
Zbone 16-Nov-21
Thornton 16-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 16-Nov-21
ohiohunter 17-Nov-21
DanaC 17-Nov-21
timex 17-Nov-21
timex 17-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 17-Nov-21
DanaC 18-Nov-21
DanaC 18-Nov-21
timex 18-Nov-21
spike78 18-Nov-21
timex 18-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 18-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 18-Nov-21
timex 18-Nov-21
DanaC 18-Nov-21
spike78 18-Nov-21
2Wild Bill 18-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 19-Nov-21
timex 19-Nov-21
Zbone 19-Nov-21
carcus 19-Nov-21
DanaC 19-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 19-Nov-21
Rocky D 19-Nov-21
DanaC 20-Nov-21
Rocky D 20-Nov-21
LBshooter 20-Nov-21
Rocky D 20-Nov-21
From: carcus
14-Nov-21
Sorry not archery related but I am thinking of getting a camp gun for protection as our new moose area has brown and white bears, I don't know too much about guns but the 45-70govt seems pretty crazy, The 450 bushmaster seems good too. I am not hunting with it unless I have a bow malfunction. What caliber would you choose

14-Nov-21
45-70 all day over the .450

Maybe Kevin Dill will jump in and let us drool over his custom take down Marlin 45-70

From: greg simon
14-Nov-21
45-70 lever action for a camp gun. Better choices in bullets and more power.

14-Nov-21
45-70 lever gun.

It’s a thumper. As Greg said, better bullet selection and more power.

From: carcus
14-Nov-21
thanks guys, would marlin be the brand to buy? I like the looks of them

From: Wildan2
14-Nov-21
Marlin is a good choice;I would get a 450 Marlin(magnum 45/70) newer,stronger case.45/70 are loaded down for the "old" guns. I would go for an original Marlin or he ones built now by Ruger(not by Remington).

From: DanaC
14-Nov-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
If you don't reload or buy custom heavy loads the 45-70 is milder.

I like my Henry in 45-70 but the Marlins are good reliable guns too.

PS the newer Henry's have side loading gate.

From: badguybuster
14-Nov-21
45-70, all day, every day!

It can be loaded from "mouse fart" to moose stampede.

From: Kevin Dill
14-Nov-21
Testing images.....

From: Kevin Dill
14-Nov-21
I went with .45/70 for many reasons. The bottom line was ammo selections, performance and availability. Weapon choices are many and most all perform very well with the loads available. The round is a well-accepted dangerous game stopper, but also suitable for short and medium-short range hunting with open sights.

My first one was a straight-stocked Marlin 1895 Guide Gun customized by Wild West Guns in Anchorage. It shot like a dream and even my wife loved to shoot it with normal loads. With ghost ring peep it was an intuitive defensive weapon. Parkerized finish and lots of options. I sold it because I craved a full takedown 1895.

From: carcus
14-Nov-21
Cool, I see cabelas canada has a couple Chiappa models available, is chiappa a good make?

14-Nov-21
If you have time, Try to find a Marlin guide gun

From: Kevin Dill
14-Nov-21
A couple years ago I located an original JM (John Marlin) series 1895 which appeared to be unfired. I bought it and took it to Jerry Dove in Princeton, WV for custom smithing. Here's the list of things I asked him to do:

Convert to takedown. Shorten barrel to 16.5". Polish and smooth action and trigger. Delete safety. Shorten stock 1.5". Pachmayer Decelerator Pad. Big Loop Lever. Skinner Sights front and rear. Re-crown barrel. 2-color Cerakote all metal.

Judge for yourself but this is about the ultimate traveling defensive rifle suitable for anything that walks North America. The gun is a real hoot to handle and shoot. It's short and FAST in the hands. I am extremely impressed with it. The fact that is packs into a 20" case is really helpful.

In use....

14-Nov-21
That’s the beauty I was hoping you would show.

I’ve got a JM Marlin guide gun in 45-70. But it’s bone stock.

From: ohiohunter
14-Nov-21
Recently slapped a 45-70 on my encore, even with a brake kicked like a scalded mule. Not sure if it’s a consideration but the the 350 legend is no slouch. You can buy an upper and run it on your AR lower. Without optics/sights uppers can be had sub $300

From: Bake
14-Nov-21
I bought a 45-70 this year and put a trijicon red dot on it. I really like it. Mine is the Marlin

From: BTM
14-Nov-21

BTM's embedded Photo
BTM's embedded Photo
My thoughts about Kevin Dill's beautiful takedown:

From: Bowfreak
14-Nov-21
I am always amazed at the level of expertise that Bowsiters have in so many areas. Cool threads and awesome rifle KD!

From: Kevin Dill
14-Nov-21
Thank you.

From: Rickm
14-Nov-21
If just for hunting I believe the 444 has better ballistics, slightly. For all around and bear defense 45-70 hands down. Load selection is way better.

14-Nov-21
+1 for the .45/70

I went for an 1895SS because there’s not an herbivore on this continent that I couldn’t kill cleanly enough with watered-down Cowboy Action loads if it came to that, or I can buy penetrator loads so hot that I would probably never touch one off unless my life depended on it. Kinda checks off a lotta boxes.

If I were flying into remote areas, I’d want one like Kevin’s.

From: SteveB
14-Nov-21
Is there anyone on here that is knowledgeable about the Pre-‘64 Winchester 1894 30-30 in outstanding condition? I made a deal on a group of guns many years ago and it went in my gun cabinet and there it remains. Keep or sell and get something else?

14-Nov-21
SteveB, might want to check out the Leroy Merz Antique gun website. They will have good comparisons for value. As far as a useful gun, IMO the 30-30 is still a great caliber under the proper circumstances.

14-Nov-21
I think you found your camp gun Carcus!

14-Nov-21
“ As far as a useful gun, IMO the 30-30 is still a great caliber under the proper circumstances.” Amen to that one!

The worst thing about the .30-30 (IMO) is that you basically can’t get it in anything but a lever-gun. A bolt-action with a 20” barrel and a low-powered scope (or in a Scout Rifle configuration) would be about as sexy as Grandma’s orthopedic shoes and probably twice as practical.

From: Kevin Dill
14-Nov-21
You can do a lot of nice things to customize a Marlin 1895. It was and still is a popular gun with many accessories available. One thing I strongly recommend is to consider upgrading to a big loop lever. It's much easier to get a gloved hand in there quickly, plus you'll experience less finger bruising from recoil. For defensive work a ghost ring (large aperture, receiver mounted peep) sight is superb. I had a Skinner Alaskan rear sight installed on the receiver. Much better than the flip-down barrel-mounted rear sight Marlin used.

From: DanaC
14-Nov-21
Kevin, that's sweet; for bear I'd unscrew the peep aperture and go with a ghost ring/fiber optic front sight combo. Currently running a cheap red/green dot optic but going to switch to a Skinner peep and upgrade the front post. (Old eyes don't see that brass bead worth a damn...)

From: badguybuster
14-Nov-21

badguybuster's embedded Photo
badguybuster's embedded Photo
I love my JM Guide Gun

14-Nov-21

Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
The Skinner Alaskan is like fine jewelry for your gun.

From: carcus
14-Nov-21
45-70 it is, now make and model, cabelas Canada has Chiappa levers in stock, are they worth looking at?

14-Nov-21

Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo

From: carcus
14-Nov-21
I'm not a gun guy but these are the guns I will hunt with when I can't use a bow!

From: woodguy65
14-Nov-21

woodguy65's embedded Photo
woodguy65's embedded Photo
45-70 Marlin Guide gun - also had mine customized by Brockmans Rifles in Idaho.

14-Nov-21
Looks like they have done a good job of knocking off Marlin’s entire lineup and then some.

I don’t know if their rifles are on par with the Marlins, but I sure wish I had the funds available to conduct a thorough investigation ;)

And I’m not even a Gun Guy anymore!!

From: Coyote 65
14-Nov-21
Little late to the conversation, but went on brown bear photo expedition and all the guides had 45-70's.

Terry

From: Nick Muche
14-Nov-21

Nick Muche's embedded Photo
Nick Muche's embedded Photo
I’ve been fortunate to spend a fair amount of time in and around bears of all sizes, .45/70 is what I carry.

From: peterk1234
14-Nov-21
45 70. Especially if you reload. Your choices become almost endless. One of my favorite lever actions to shoot. Who am I kidding. All lever actions rock.

14-Nov-21
Nick you don't look old enough to carry one of those!

From: Zbone
14-Nov-21
Man, you guys are making me jealous with those 45/70 lever actions... I only have a single shot H&R/NEF 45/70 Handi Rifle...

From: LBshooter
14-Nov-21
45/70 with Garrett cartridges and you'll stop whatever you want. The customs are nice but they cost a lot of money, I checked Walmart and picked up a Henry side loading gate for $162 on clearance, beautiful rifle. Rounds are expensive with the shortage, however if you check your local Walmart they sell a box of 20, 300 grain for 32 dollars.

15-Nov-21
Just make sure that Henry is rated for the hot rounds!

(At $162, I can’t imagine that it could be)

Personally, I don’t really understand why they sell .45 caliber bullets in the flying ashtray configuration. A .458 slug needs expansion like Jeff Bezos needs food stamps. I center-punched the heart on a Whitetail from 80 yards with a 300 HP and she still ran 40; can’t imagine she’d have gone any farther with a 405….

But at $32/box, I guess I know I won’t be trading off my spent brass anytime soon ;)

From: DanaC
15-Nov-21
Pretty sure the Henry will hold up to any round suited for the Marlins.

Contacted Henry, they will not *commit* to that. I'd bet Marlin won't either. But custom loaders like Garrett have tested their stuff extensively.

PS Corax, I *like* those ashtray bullets. Fun handing someone a load with a Barnes X up front, just to see the look on their face ;-)

From: DanaC
15-Nov-21

DanaC's Link
https://www.garrettcartridges.com/terms.html

From: BULELK1
15-Nov-21

BULELK1's embedded Photo
BULELK1's embedded Photo
I've been very happy with my .45/70

Good luck, Robb

From: Kevin Dill
15-Nov-21
I don't think anyone needs a custom piece for utility work around camp or out in the field. Your everyday .45/70 lever will do just fine. I went custom because I like fine weapons and because I really wanted a TD lever for bush travel in planes. I also wanted a purpose-built gun made for fast handling, compact carry, mostly defensive work, and corrosion resistance. It's also my backup hunting weapon if my bow ever bites the dust.

As far as power goes, there's way more than enough kinetic energy to push a heavy projectile deep into or through a big bear or moose. I'm talking skull-busting, skeletal-destroying power. An average 'cowboy' load with soft lead bullets will surprise you. Heavier jacketed bullets are real bunker busters.

From: carcus
15-Nov-21
Nice guns, now I just gotta find one!

From: M.Pauls
15-Nov-21
Whatever you do, go stainless. You don’t want to be babying and oiling a camp gun. Once you get home after a trip after it’s been tossed around, rained on, in and out of the tent, you can clean it once and put it away.

I’m a little against the grain here, as I’m a believer that with guns, speed (shock) kills by matter of “bang flop” more often than a big hole. With a bear that is eating me I want dead right now. No doubt about it, with a 45-70 getting a big bullet into the central nervous system anywhere is going to be lights out, but a double long or something could leave enough time for some uncomfortable times. I’ve shot a few things with a 45-70, and NOT in the head or spine, and the deaths have been surprisingly slow. A guide I talked to in the Yukon who did tons of brown bears said, I always tell my clients to leave their 45-70s at home and bring their bolt gun that they shoot the best. Even for a charging situation. I’d probably choose a kimber Montana or something similar (extremely light and easy to carry) in 338win with good bullets, or honestly any of my go to bolt guns that I shoot well, even in 7mm Rem Mag. I want light so I actually carry it, something I shoot well, and that will do well both with frontal and broadside shots if one or the other is needed.

Having said all that, a lot of guys carry a 45-70 and are happy with that so I’m sure you could be too

From: scentman
15-Nov-21

From: spike78
15-Nov-21
You can also get a 450BM in an AR15 platform as well. I have a Ruger American in 450BM and dropped a black bear in its tracks it’s no slouch.

From: Boris
15-Nov-21
A friend of mine has 2 of them. 1 for him and 1 for his son. Both are ported. A friend of his has 1, not ported. The not ported gun really hurts to shoot. The other 2 shoots like a 3030. I have shot all 3 and like the ported barrels much better.

From: LBshooter
15-Nov-21
The Henry will handle anything a Marlin will eat, and that's what friends are for, I always let them shoot first ;) The $162 price was simply the way Walmart gets rid of stock they will no longer carry, did I mention the golden boy 44 was also $162 ? . A Remington 308 for 69.95 ain't bad either. As far as weight, it's hard to beat a lever gun for quick handling and second follow up shots, of course just like anything practice is recommended.

From: LBshooter
15-Nov-21
45/70 with Garrett cartridges and you'll stop whatever you want. The customs are nice but they cost a lot of money, I checked Walmart and picked up a Henry side loading gate for $162 on clearance, beautiful rifle. Rounds are expensive with the shortage, however if you check your local Walmart they sell a box of 20, 300 grain for 32 dollars.

From: spike78
15-Nov-21
Boris mine is ported and probably kicks like a stout 20 gauge slug.

From: carcus
15-Nov-21
Just finished looking at the ruger guide gun, It's definitely a option

15-Nov-21
CRIMINY, Robb - that scope has got to weigh more than the rifle!!!!

@KD - I truly admire the fact that yours is NOT ported.

From: Chris S
15-Nov-21

Chris S's embedded Photo
Chris S's embedded Photo
Bought a Marlin guide gun after a hunt where ironically “Guides Gun was a Marlin 1895G Guide Gun” he put down a wounded bear. Years later I was asked to help track a wounded bear and did the same when bear reared up and lunged at me about 15 feet away one straight though chest literally rolled him arse over end. I have scout front mount with a red dot up front. I literally shoulder the gun and that red dot is on target.

From: timex
15-Nov-21
So I'm just curious but why isn't a 12 Guage with slugs a consideration.

From: Chris S
15-Nov-21

Chris S's embedded Photo
Chris S's embedded Photo

From: Chris S
15-Nov-21

Chris S's embedded Photo
Chris S's embedded Photo

From: timex
15-Nov-21
So out of know where here comes a pissed off brown or polar or grizz & you've got to fool with turning that red dot on. NO THANKS

From: Bake
15-Nov-21
Trijicon red dot turns on automatically when the gun is moved. Handy as can be!

From: carcus
15-Nov-21
"So I'm just curious but why isn't a 12 Guage with slugs a consideration."

The gun will be used to hunt with if we have a bow malfunction

From: timex
15-Nov-21
Iv used red dots & their great in controlled situations. A bear attack is not a controlled situation. Had one on a bow & hated it. To bright in low light & all ya saw was red. To low in bright light & ya could barely see it if at all Had to constantly adjust with changing light conditions. In an unexpected oh shit situation ?????

15-Nov-21
“ why isn't a 12 Guage with slugs a consideration.”

First 3 reasons that come to mind: Sectional Density Jacketed Bullets .458 Win Mag equivalent loads

From: timex
15-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo

From: timex
15-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
A 350 grain 45-70 at 1900 & the same bullet out of a 458 at 2500 is not comparable whatsoever

From: timex
15-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
I fact the 458 will push a 500 grain bullet 250 fps faster than the 45-70 will a 350 at 1900. Again not comparable at all. Not taking anything away from the 45-70 it's a great round.
timex's embedded Photo
I fact the 458 will push a 500 grain bullet 250 fps faster than the 45-70 will a 350 at 1900. Again not comparable at all. Not taking anything away from the 45-70 it's a great round.
A 350 grain 45-70 at 1900 & the same bullet out of a 458 at 2500 is not comparable whatsoever

16-Nov-21
My first trip to Kodiak I took an 870 with a 21" slug barrel and rifle sights. Weather kept us from getting out to our deer spot so we duck hunted spots we could get to on the road system. That barrel worked amazingly well and we killed a bunch.

45-70 is a great choice. I've hunted with one several times and it is an obvious choice for a dual purpose defense/hunting rifle.

From: DanaC
16-Nov-21
"So I'm just curious but why isn't a 12 Guage with slugs a consideration. "

Good question. Depends on what you "like" to an extent.

I load 300 grain 45 jacketed bullets in my 45-70, the load is warm and probably gets close to 1900 fps. My 12 gauge deer load is the Hornady SST, which is a 300 grain 45 bullet at around 2000 fps. (And my muzzle-loader round is a 300 grain saboted 45 caliber 300 grainer in that ballpark.)

The 45-70 is a bit trimmer than the other two guns, and heck, I just wanted one. And the shotgun is only legal for the third bear season here, while the 45-70 is legal for the first two, longer, seasons. (Yeah, screwy laws, they just recently opened bear to shotgun deer season, which is the only time you can carry slugs in the woods.)

Would I use the SST's on a bear? Absolutely. But the Henry is my 'bear gun' because that's how I justified it when I spent the money ;-)

From: Rocky D
16-Nov-21
Be sure to go with what you are familiar with! It would be really neat to pack Kevin’s gun but if you have developed a certain level intimacy with it then things can go south in that moment of chaos.

Having trained the military to develop muscle memory with weapons you do not want to have to think where the safety is located.

I packed a shotgun for that reason.

Go with what you know!

If you want a specific backup gun then practice with it until it is a natural movement.

From: spike78
16-Nov-21
Yup for bear protection toss that damn red dot scope and use open sights. The red dot is sure nice on white paper targets but not on a charging animal. I shot a black bear a couple years ago with my scoped Marlin lever gun in .35 Remington and dropped it on the ground. It quickly got up and ran about 15 feet past me I was on the ground. I took two running shots and missed both because it had a scope on it.

From: Kevin Dill
16-Nov-21
Personally, no scope for me on a primary defensive bear gun. I think it’s impossible to do better than a rear receiver ghost ring combined with a sturdy blade up front. Extremely fast and natural target acquisition. Low profile for carry. Sturdy and weather-proof. You can carry a smaller aperture and screw it in for enhanced accuracy at longer ranges.

To me, scoping a defensive rifle (which is intended for up-close work) is like scoping a 4” Casull. You can do it of course, but you could be compromising some things on a fast moving target at 10 yards.

From: DanaC
16-Nov-21
Spike, you don't mention what power scope you were using. A good low-power scope or a red dot can be as fast as open sights if the shooter is familiar with it.

(I get a hoot out of guys with a 16x scope on a 30-30 tho' - used to see some funny chit in Vermont ;-) )

From: Rocky D
16-Nov-21

From: timex
16-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Ruger 44 mag carbine with fixed 2.5 × iv had this gun for over 40 years shoot it with both eyes open & couldn't even guess how much venison it's put in the freezer

From: Bake
16-Nov-21
I don't have time to dig it up, but I'm almost positive that one of the shooting schools that "train" people for dangerous game hunting (like charges), did a "study" about quickness of open sights versus even a 1-4x scope, and the scope was quicker by a wide wide margin than people using open sights.

The big problem is that most people don't have the time nor funds to practice consistently with a weapon like a 45-70. I know I can't afford to put $50 worth of ammo through it every day

I like my red dot on mine. It is super quick and fast. Much faster for me than open sights. I can't find a pic of mine.

I would love that safety delete. . .

From: Bake
16-Nov-21

Bake's embedded Photo
Bake's embedded Photo
Found it. Wish I could find a shorter weaver base. It’s about 2/8ths too tall

From: Bake
16-Nov-21

Bake's embedded Photo
Bake's embedded Photo
I put a Trijicon 3.5 MOA red dot on my daughters 410 turkey gun. I’m not a good shot but I can consistently bust flying clays with it. It’s quicker than you would think

From: Ken Taylor
16-Nov-21

Ken Taylor's embedded Photo
Ken Taylor's embedded Photo
I'll try to post a picture of my wife with our 45/70 and an aggressive black bear that we had to kill a while back.

16-Nov-21

Corax_latrans's embedded Photo
Corax_latrans's embedded Photo
Suit yourself, Timex. Couple hundred fps may matter on the African plains, but at 20 yards and in, I’d expect it’s more a matter of whatever you can cycle faster.

A hot-loaded .45/70 may not be “everything” that the .458 Win CAN be, but the question I was responding to was “why the .45/70 and not a 12-ga.?”

And if you limit your options to factory loads, the .45/70+P is a helluvalot closer to a .458 WM than it is to any 12 ga slug that I’m aware of. And whrn it comes to familiarity, a .45/70 is also a lot more useful for actually hunting animals like deer & Elk than a .458….

Just sayin’.

If I could afford to have a rifle that I would only use to stop charging animals bent on my destruction, I could probably afford to have someone like Bud Searcy build it for me… and at that rate, I wouldn’t even consider a.458Win.

From: spike78
16-Nov-21
Dana, I believe it is a 2-8 power but I will have to check. It may have been on 3x when I shot the bear because that spot was around an 80 yard shot total but I shot the bear at 30 yards. The power didn’t really matter anyway because I did not have time to actually look through it only point and shoot.

From: DanaC
16-Nov-21
Yeah, I don't shoot enough moving targets to feel confident. Should probably branch out and do a bit of skeet.

From: timex
16-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Corax I'd suggest you read that top paragraph closely before ya go putting hotrod loads in a lever gun ........

Your the one who compared the 45-70 to the 458 & i simply intended to educate you to the fact that thats not true. Especially wit loads suitable for lever guns. Never did I say the 458 was better. In fact I had a 458 & loaded 300 grain round nose bullets to 2800 fps & it was an incredibly powerful gun but was punishing to shoot 10-15 rounds on the bags testing loads & ya had a headache for the rest of the day.

From: DanaC
16-Nov-21
Not sure what bullets are suitable for the 450 Bush but the 45-70 has loads from 250 grain jacketed to hard cast weighing more than double that. Hornady sells lighter bullets with flexible plastic tips that improve ballistics.

You don't need to beat your brains out for thin-skinned game but you can pack some heavy whup-ass if you need it. Frankly those Garret heavies scare me! I've loaded 'stout' 350 grain rounds and that was about all the fun I could ask for ;-)

16-Nov-21
“ The power didn’t really matter anyway because I did not have time to actually look through it only point and shoot.”

That’s the beauty of familiarity

16-Nov-21
“ an incredibly powerful gun but was punishing to shoot 10-15 rounds on the bags testing loads & ya had a headache for the rest of the day.”

I used to get that from a 7 Mag! LOL

Though there are days when I seem to be a little muddle-headed and I start scaring myself over how many concussions I’ve accumulated and how much that damn 7Mag contributed on every shot…..

Not sure if my 1895 is rated for ALL of the available +P options, so I’d take the ammo manufacturers’ guidance on that, but I was under the impression that the whole point of the Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, et al was specifically to take advantage of modern rifles and propellants.

I do feel pretty certain that if I were to buy a box of the hot ones, the extent of my “testing” would be one “instinctively” aimed shot off-hand at an 8” bull from 20 yards.

Unless I was a foot high, I’d probably call it good and save the other 19 for bears or rotten tricks to pull on the unsuspecting….. :p

From: timex
16-Nov-21
Corax - Dude your funny.... Go back & look at your post of the bullets & take note of the bright red writing that says (see more info & recommended firearms) I honestly don't think a extremely hot load would bust a modern lever gun. But the extreme pressure could most definitely cause a stuck case the same as hard bolt lift with hot loads in a bolt gun. in this case the lever gun doesn't have the torque required to remove the stuck case. This would not be a good thing especially in a gun intended as a defense weapon

16-Nov-21
“ an incredibly powerful gun but was punishing to shoot 10-15 rounds on the bags testing loads & ya had a headache for the rest of the day.”

I used to get that from a 7 Mag! LOL

Though there are days when I seem to be a little muddle-headed and I start scaring myself over how many concussions I’ve accumulated and how much that damn 7Mag contributed on every shot…..

Not sure if my 1895 is rated for ALL of the available +P options, so I’d take the ammo manufacturers’ guidance on that, but I was under the impression that the whole point of the Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, et al was specifically to take advantage of modern rifles and propellants.

I do feel pretty certain that if I were to buy a box of the hot ones, the extent of my “testing” would be one “instinctively” aimed shot off-hand at an 8” bull from 20 yards.

Unless I was a foot high, I’d probably call it good and save the other 19 for bears or rotten tricks to pull on the unsuspecting….. :p

From: spike78
16-Nov-21
Dana the 450 shoots pistol bullets so yes the 45/70 is definitely more versatile but the 450 is definitely enough for most game anyway.

16-Nov-21

Corax_latrans's embedded Photo
Corax_latrans's embedded Photo
Silly me. I was looking at this….

From: timex
16-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Corax I'll talk guns with ya all day long. This is my latest build it'll put bullets in the ass of a soda can at 600 yards consistently. I use it for deer heard control in the late season for some local farmers. The 45-70 is an awesome gun but it seams that you want it to be more than what it is. And your description of a 8" group is good enough ???? I'd think hitting a charging bear in the nose would be much better than in the ear !!! But if your happy with it that's all that matters.

From: timex
16-Nov-21
1500fps my friend the 458 is 2200 you are silly indeed

From: spike78
16-Nov-21
Timex what caliber and gun manufacturer?

From: Zbone
16-Nov-21
Yeah me too wants know what 45-70 consistency hits a pop can at 600 yards...

From: timex
16-Nov-21
Custom. trued Rem 700 action. krieger 29" fluted mtu taper barrel. oversize Recoil lug . 6 oz jewel trigger. Chambered in 6.5× 284 Norma. nightforce 15 moa base & rings. Has a Hawke 8× 32 × 56 scope is ok for the money but I'd eventually like a better scope. Shooting 130 berger vld at 3300

From: timex
16-Nov-21
Zbone I don't know about a pop can but them boys with them sharps & similar will impress the heck out of ya at the range and a lot of em still shoot the black powder loads

From: Zbone
16-Nov-21
Am sure the old buffalo hunters killed bison at 600 yards and further with the old black powder 45-70 caliber, but there's a huge accuracy difference between a tricked out flat shooting 6.5× 284 Norma or any varmint or target caliber and a 45-70 shooting a rainbowing 1+ once slug, regardless of what kind of precision 45-70 barrel can be built for that caliber, be lucky to hold a 8" group with the best barrel...

From: Thornton
16-Nov-21
Down side to 45-70 is ammo is rarely available, and if it is, it is often lower power cowboy action type loads. I visit close to a dozen gun stores a month and I've seen a surplus of 450 bushmaster but I know very little about it.

16-Nov-21
The comparison was 12 ga v .45/70 in over-the-counter loads.

You’ve made the point that a .458 WM can be loaded hotter. Okayfine. Point taken.

MY point is that these are ridiculously punishing loads and A) they are vastly more suitable as a Stopping Round than a shotgun slug, and B) you’d be foolish to shoot them any more than you absolutely HAVE TO. Loan me a Lead Sled and I’ll zero it for 25 yards.

Otherwise, if I can hit a “pie plate” at Charging Bear distance by just looking down the barrel, I’m as good as Reality will allow me to be. That’s all I think I’d get In The Moment, and no load is going to be inches off in windage at 20 yards. Recoil & Barrel Time can play hell with your elevation, though, and that’s what I would want to know: do I hold 6:00 on its head, its chest, or just go for the dirt right in front of it?

I guess that would be the argument for a 12 ga. You can shoot an awful lot of trap & skeet without accumulating microconcussions. And if you’re like my brother (who once killed 7 mourning doves with 5 shells from his 20 ga.), that might be worth more than the raw horsepower.

On the other hand, if the first shot is where you need it to be (generally), it’s hard to go too big. And you can practice close, fast shooting with a .45/70 with VERY mild loads if you roll your own, or 300s or Cowboy loads if you’re an OTC guy.

Or you could grab a .22LR lever and never develop a flinch. Took me a solid brick of .22LR to get past my flinch with the 7 Rem Mag.

From: ohiohunter
17-Nov-21

ohiohunter's Link
An encore 45-70 with a brake

From: DanaC
17-Nov-21
Zeroing a 12 gauge with slugs is recoil a-plenty. I smartened up and bought a dedicated cantilever-mount scoped slug barrel. I switch out before deer season and need just a few shots to verify that it's still dead on.

That said, I agree that shooting plenty of 22 lr's is great practice that translates when switching to a heavier kicker. One of my 22's is wicked accurate, in spite of a heavy trigger, IF I squeeze correctly. Great 'training tool'.

From: timex
17-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
6.5×284 at 600 yards
timex's embedded Photo
6.5×284 at 600 yards
Agree 100% with .22's & practice - training. When I was young squirrel hunting was a big thing we would have competition's the person with the least amount of squirrels (head shots only) had to buy the beer at the end of the day. I accredit a lot of my woodsman & shooting skills to lots of squirrel hunting with a .22 when I was younger.

From: timex
17-Nov-21
Ok so I don't consider black bears in va dangerous game. But just out of curiosity I googled dangerous game shotgun slugs & 500 gainers are available. Absolutely not knocking the 45-70 but there are alternatives.

17-Nov-21
.22 was how I got past my Ginormous Flinch with that 7 Mag. One day I squeezed the trigger on an empty chamber….. and when I opened my eyes…. I was looking at my boots.

Once I started letting the Sako “cool down” while I burned 20-30 rounds of .22, it was amazing how accurate that rifle suddenly got to be…. But I sold it and got a 7-08 instead.

Still overkill for anything I’m gonna do.

And speaking of overkill… I did find a 650-some grain Brenneke slug with an advertised MV of 1600 and FPE of 3800 vs the 2800-some of the Garret 540s.

Good. Lord.

I guess there’s no idea bad enough to keep people from building it! LOL

Maybe the idea there is that if you don’t stop the bear with the first round, at least you’ll be too addled by the recoil to be really bothered by getting dismantled by the bear….

But idle speculation… I think bullets .45 cal and up have about zero practical use for expansion. If a half-inch permanent wound channel won’t kill it quick enough for your purposes, you’re probably SOL without a CNS hit no matter what you’re using….

If it were really all about frontal area, I figure the 4-gauge and 8-gauge rifles would never have gone out of style…. ;)

From: DanaC
18-Nov-21
7-08 is an awesome round in its own right. Capable of taking any deer, wouldn't hesitate to shoot bigger stuff if I had a good load in the chamber.

I've dropped a few deer with it, never had to trail one. Biggest dressed out over 190, smallest was maybe 80. You can bury me with that little Model Seven ;-)

From: DanaC
18-Nov-21
"I think bullets .45 cal and up have about zero practical use for expansion."

I dunno, haven't shot anything with it yet but hoping to get a bear with a 45 cal 300 grain Barnes. If it performs like the smaller ones have for me I'll be happy. And those are absolute hammers.

(And I believe they make a tipped 458, ought to turn that Bushmaster into a monster.)

From: timex
18-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
Love my little .44 carbine seen 2 good bucks this morning one was wide but wouldn't stop. Life is good
timex's embedded Photo
Love my little .44 carbine seen 2 good bucks this morning one was wide but wouldn't stop. Life is good
This is somewhat off topic but a brief summary of my experiences with bullet performance... So back in the late 80's early 90's in my area the nw part of va there was a trend towards bigger guns for deer hunting. 54 cal muzzloaders, 444 marlin, a few friends had ruger #3 in 45-70, 300 win mag, 300 wheatherby mag, 338 win mag was very popular. This was about the same time the 300 rum & the 7mm stw came out as well. Even knew a guy with a 375 h&h. It just happened that I was at green top near Richmond & someone had ordered a rem 700 in 458 & never picked it up. It had been there for about a year & I offered them som cash & wala I had the biggest gun on the mountain. And yes I loaded 300gr round nose bullets & shot deer with it. I also fooled around with gas checked lymon lead bullets but I believe the gun had too fast a twist for em as it didn't shoot em well. The one thing this big gun Trend eventually tought us was. Big guns with big bullets designed to hit big animals simply didn't work well on deer. There's just not enough animal there for the bullets to preform. Yes absolutely it killed them but more often than not the deer would run. The heavy bullets would just punch right through them without transferring all that energy or (shock) into the animal. Eventually we wised up & went back to more realistic deer hunting cartridges & lighter bullets designed to dump the majority of their energy inside the animal (hydrostatic shock) I've dropped as many deer dead in their tracks with a 243 & 85 gr hollowpoints as with any other gun I've ever owned. Don't know how many times I've heard it someone complaining about deer running away from their 338 win mag. And ya just can't beat it through their head with a hammer that that bullet is designed to hit a moose or elk or grizz and not deer and simply goes through a deer almost like a fmj....I don't live or hunt in big bear country but would agree that a 45-70 with 350 gr heavy jacketed would be a great choice for defense ..and perhaps a lighter thinner jacketed bullet for thin skinned game.

From: spike78
18-Nov-21
Timex 6.5x284 would be a dream caliber for me unfortunately I live in MA and our ranges are just long enough for 30/30 type yardage lol.

From: timex
18-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
Danac. he came back ... Life is good
timex's embedded Photo
Danac. he came back ... Life is good
Yes the 6.5×284 is an excellent round. It's pretty much a must reload round. It held the 1000 yard benchrest best 5 shot group for a while. I do deer herd control in the late season & its perfect for field hunting out to about 600 yards. It absolutely will shoot farther but I limit myself to 600 on animals. Had to many move during bullet flight time over the years.

18-Nov-21
“ And ya just can't beat it through their head with a hammer that that bullet is designed to hit a moose or elk or grizz and not deer and simply goes through a deer almost like a fmj....”

Another funny thing is that a lot of guys buy those monster calibers and find that they don’t care for the recoil, so they buy the lightest bullets they can find and they work like lightning on deer… and then they’ll go Elk hunting and try to put one of those lightweight, long-range deer bullets through both shoulders of an Elk at 80 yards in the Timber… and they “don’t know what happened…”.

The .243 has a bad rep for the same reason - “youth model” rifles and kids shooting deer with cheap, 80-grain varmint loads. Or grown men who do the same thing because they want to shoot the fastest, flattest-shooting thing they can get their hands on, because Speed.

But don’t you say anything nasty about my .54 roundballs. You can take about any shot you want on a deer and any shot angle you would ever attempt with an arrow with a roundball. Just need to think like a bowhunter and not a comic-book superhero. Helps to be prepared to track after the hit.

18-Nov-21
Gorgeous buck, Timex!

From: timex
18-Nov-21
Thank you. Danac had sent me a pm & in my response I told him about this buck that had just run a doe past me & I couldn't get a shot. I was still all shook up about it. I decided to wait a while & sure enough she came back out the thicket about an hour later with this guy still behind her. Life is good

From: DanaC
18-Nov-21
Guess I'm your good luck charm ;-)

Heckuva nice buck!!!

From: spike78
18-Nov-21
Corax those light .243 rounds are deadly on deer as long as you miss the shoulder. I’m definitely a fan of light and fast for deer and my 25/06 was instant death.

From: 2Wild Bill
18-Nov-21
"the lever gun doesn't have the torque required to remove the stuck case"

I learned that lesson when I reloaded the rounds and switched from a .44mag Ruger Deerslayer to an 1894 Marlin lever in.44mag. In my experience I could not exceed 1600fps.

19-Nov-21
“ as long as you miss the shoulder.”

Sounds like a mechanical broadhead! LOL

They may be “deadly“ when everything goes right, but they won’t kill an animal any MORE dead than a 100 grain bullet will, and if anything goes wrong, they may just kill that animal substantially LESS dead.

And that ain’t good.

From: timex
19-Nov-21

timex's embedded Photo
It's called hydrostatic shock. This is the entrance side that the 85 gr Sierra bullet hit a big doe at I believe 300 yards
timex's embedded Photo
It's called hydrostatic shock. This is the entrance side that the 85 gr Sierra bullet hit a big doe at I believe 300 yards
Sierra makes a .6mm 85gr boat tail hollowpoint in their game king line of bullets. It's not a varmint bullet it's designed for deer. When it hits you hear a poooommmph that's unmistakable. Deer just can't take the shock & more often than not the base of the bullet will stuck in the hide on the off side of the hit. I reload but federal premium offers a 243 factory load with this bullet.

From: Zbone
19-Nov-21
I thought we were talking about .45 caliber bear/dangerous game rifle, how in the heck did this thread weave from a brush busting buffalo round for bear defense to flat shooting deer/elk cartridges.... Its apple and oranges... There's no perfect knife, there's no perfect cartridge, each has it's purposes and limitations....

From: carcus
19-Nov-21
I'm also thinking about a slug gun

From: DanaC
19-Nov-21
Price of slugs these days is just about orbital. Lot of guys here have 20 gauge Savage's and can't find slugs for them.

19-Nov-21
Yep. That’s a purpose-built Premium Bullet, NOT a cheap varmint round, which is the type I was blaming for the .243’s bad rep. About as comparable as a 405 gr .45/70 load that’s safe in the 1895 Trapdoor and one of the many +P loads.

Good Bullets Matter!

I have’t shot any of my rifles in years now. But if I’m gonna hunt with a firearm, I’ll be using a heavy-for-caliber bullet at some reasonable velocity like 2800 fps max.

I used to think I should pair my 7-08 with an 8-‘06…. But then I realized that an 8 Mauser is already there if you buy modern ammo for it. But a Whelen would be interesting to own, too.

And that’s why the .45/70 over the slug: because big sectional density for mucho penetration, and you can choose from a large number of factory loads, all of which are intended to stop a large, aggressive animal. Not just pop a deer through the ribs.

From: Rocky D
19-Nov-21
First in defense of life the bear must be really close!

Most slugs are not going to come apart because of their velocity and they will still get plenty penetration. Hopefully, you bust the bruin in that pumpkin head!

Agree with old style bullets not being the best choice. Thankfully, their has been significant advancements made in bullet design and casting in the last twenty five years.

That is why you can go hunt with lighter calibers and not be at tremendous disadvantage!

I shot a brown with a Winchester Silver Tip and didn’t achieve the best results. Now when I used a Barnes X bullet that was another story with very positive performance!

From: DanaC
20-Nov-21
Rocky, what load with that Barnes X?

From: Rocky D
20-Nov-21
DanaC, I wasn’t into handloading at the So I actually used Barnes custom supreme ammunition in a 300 win mag.

From: LBshooter
20-Nov-21
Nothing wrong with a 12 ga slug. Now some number 8's to the face as your first rd and then follow by slugs. My benelli m1s90 will unload the entire mag in a couple of seconds, hard to beat. My shoulder isn't going to like it but what's the alternative.

From: Rocky D
20-Nov-21
LB, many Alaskans carried 00 buck for their first round followed by slugs. I never bought into that completely based on the fact that maybe one shot was all that you would get!

Obviously, I only spent nine years in Alaska and they are tons of peeps that know more than I do and have a hell of a lot more experience than I do. I personally know two people that killed brownies at under 10 feet. Luckily both were head shots. One was with my 300 and the other was a 338.

Both met the defense of life criteria since one was caribou hunting and the other was on Kodiak for deer and neither had a bear tag.

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