Moultrie Products
The real scoop on ammo & components
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
timex 21-Nov-21
Bou'bound 21-Nov-21
JL 21-Nov-21
LBshooter 21-Nov-21
JL 21-Nov-21
cnelk 21-Nov-21
grizzly63 21-Nov-21
APauls 21-Nov-21
DanaC 21-Nov-21
Shuteye 21-Nov-21
timex 22-Nov-21
DanaC 22-Nov-21
2Wild Bill 22-Nov-21
molsonarcher 22-Nov-21
Dale06 22-Nov-21
Squash 22-Nov-21
Surfbow 22-Nov-21
Grey Ghost 22-Nov-21
DanaC 22-Nov-21
70lbdraw 22-Nov-21
Kurt 22-Nov-21
jjs 22-Nov-21
Grey Ghost 22-Nov-21
Squash 22-Nov-21
Kurt 22-Nov-21
Grey Ghost 22-Nov-21
12yards 22-Nov-21
[email protected] 22-Nov-21
cnelk 22-Nov-21
JL 22-Nov-21
trophyhill 22-Nov-21
JL 22-Nov-21
DanaC 23-Nov-21
Hunts_with_stick 23-Nov-21
Hank_S 23-Nov-21
70lbdraw 23-Nov-21
JL 23-Nov-21
JL 23-Nov-21
[email protected] 23-Nov-21
JL 23-Nov-21
nehunter 23-Nov-21
Shuteye 24-Nov-21
[email protected] 24-Nov-21
Milhouse 24-Nov-21
cnelk 24-Nov-21
JL 24-Nov-21
DanaC 25-Nov-21
DanaC 25-Nov-21
txhunter58 25-Nov-21
PECO 25-Nov-21
PECO 25-Nov-21
Kurt 25-Nov-21
Thornton 26-Nov-21
RK 26-Nov-21
DanaC 26-Nov-21
DanaC 27-Nov-21
Grey Ghost 27-Nov-21
DanaC 27-Nov-21
Grey Ghost 02-Dec-21
No Mercy 02-Dec-21
DanaC 04-Dec-21
timex 04-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 04-Dec-21
WV Mountaineer 04-Dec-21
JL 04-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 04-Dec-21
JL 04-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 04-Dec-21
JL 04-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 04-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 04-Dec-21
JL 04-Dec-21
DanaC 04-Dec-21
DanaC 05-Dec-21
Hank_S 05-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 05-Dec-21
JL 05-Dec-21
RT 05-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 05-Dec-21
spike78 05-Dec-21
spike78 05-Dec-21
JL 05-Dec-21
JL 05-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 05-Dec-21
spike78 05-Dec-21
JL 05-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 05-Dec-21
spike78 05-Dec-21
JL 05-Dec-21
Hank_S 05-Dec-21
[email protected] 05-Dec-21
DanaC 06-Dec-21
timex 06-Dec-21
timex 06-Dec-21
DanaC 06-Dec-21
WV Mountaineer 06-Dec-21
timex 06-Dec-21
Hank_S 06-Dec-21
JL 06-Dec-21
timex 06-Dec-21
[email protected] 06-Dec-21
JL 06-Dec-21
JL 06-Dec-21
cnelk 06-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 06-Dec-21
cnelk 06-Dec-21
JL 06-Dec-21
JL 06-Dec-21
cnelk 06-Dec-21
Hank_S 06-Dec-21
cnelk 06-Dec-21
Hank_S 06-Dec-21
grizzly63 07-Dec-21
DanaC 07-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 07-Dec-21
Rocky D 07-Dec-21
Rocky D 07-Dec-21
cnelk 07-Dec-21
cnelk 07-Dec-21
Rocky D 07-Dec-21
Hank_S 07-Dec-21
timex 07-Dec-21
Rocky D 07-Dec-21
timex 07-Dec-21
DonVathome 07-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 07-Dec-21
JL 07-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 07-Dec-21
timex 07-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 07-Dec-21
From: timex
21-Nov-21
So what's really the problem - holdup ??? I got invited to a dove shoot a couple weeks ago went to 3 different places & not a single box of 12ga bird shot to be had. I reload for my rifles & have that covered but components are in extremely low supply. So what's exactly going on by those that know.....don't need to hear a bunch of speculation about the dems - libs. They've been around a long time & ammo was plentiful. My local gun & reloading store said in the beginning holders were the major problem but now its a supply issue but he honestly just doesn't know. Just tells me the stuff is on backorder with no estimated ship date. So what do you know ????

From: Bou'bound
21-Nov-21
Production is at all time high this is a hording issue not an availability issue is what i am hearing from multiple retailers. just watch buying patterns and see what people are buying when they find what they want............all they are allowed to. Leaving none for others.

From: JL
21-Nov-21
Here's what I know as I've been buying shotgun stuff for my bud in Florida and rifle stuff for me.

For shotgun......in my travels I've been able to buy some #7.5 and #8 lead shot, Cheddite 209 primers and 8lb jugs of shotgun powder. Most of that I got in Montana last month. I did pick up some more shot last week in northern MI. I have picked up some factory 12g boxes here and there. Down south where the weather is better (like Florida) and folks shoot/reload year round.....supplies and shells can be very hard to come by or cost prohibitive. Up north, a lot of shotgun shooting/reloading is slowing down and shells and supplies are showing up now. I think I paid $31 out the door for a case (100 shells) of 7.5 12 guage last week.

For rifle....similar to shotgun, I've been able to find reloading stuff here and there. It is very slowly getting better but the prices on some stuff is still high...especially the primers. I suspect as more supply enters the pipeline and out to the market, some sellers who paid high will get stuck with the stuff they paid high prices for. While I was waiting for a pizza to get made, I went into a local sporting goods store a couple of hours ago and they had a lot of ammo and even some small rifle primers.

I've been bugging the folks at Nosler the last couple of months to put out some bullets I'm looking for. My POC at Nosler has said he'll pass it on to the folks do the bullet production runs. He also said if the factory can't get the components they need to make their bullets (or ammo, brass, etc), they can't put any out. That would be one reason why we're not seeing some stuff come out of the factory.....no components to make product.

Figure if the components are hard to get for Nosler....they're hard to get for all of the producers. I was curious if employee shortages is playing a factor but I have not heard any rumor to that effect. Maybe someone else has???

From: LBshooter
21-Nov-21
Think about the amount of ammo that needs to be supplied. 12 million NEW gun owners last year with all the riots. Now each person buys one gun and one box of rounds, that's 12 million boxes of ammo. No throw on top of the new owners with the millions of old gun owners, that is a ton or rounds. Also, brass is tough to come by and the hoarding frenzy is making it difficult to catch up with. There are signs ammo is getting back to normal, bass pro in my area is no linger limiting boxes of ammo for handguns. I think manufacturers concentrated on supplying handgun ammo and less attention to hunting rounds. The one thin I know for,sure is a price of a box of 9 mm ball was 11/12 dollars a box before the panic and now is 21-24 a box and don't see it going down any rime soon. My advice to you is check the local wal arts in your area they seem to have ammo and at old pricing due to their orders placed for the year. I was buying 45-70 for 32 /box instead of the 100/ box on the Internet. The manufacturers are running 24/7 3 shifts and still they are behind. Stickup when you can becuase we are one riot away from this all happening again.

From: JL
21-Nov-21
IMO....the thing about the manufacture's is what is their production output? They might be running 24/7 shifts but if production output is not back to the pre-virus levels....that impacts what we see (or don't see) on the shelves. Aside from all the new gun owners needing ammo, there are alot of new reloaders like myself looking for product to reload.

I had a bit of stock in Smith & Wesson (SWBI) for a while and know Fed background checks were setting records each month. I currently own stock in AMMO inc (POWW) They make specialty ammo and are building a new production facility in Wisconsin. That should be up and running soon. The last few quarters they have been beating the earnings estimates. We'll see where that goes and how long it lasts. I watch what the other ammo makers are doing. If one does good, most all do good as that is an indication ammo sales (or at least earnings) are may be positive across the board.

From: cnelk
21-Nov-21
Govt ammo production comes first.

From: grizzly63
21-Nov-21
It all adds up to causing the problem, new owners due to the rioting, factories not running at full capacity due to worker shortages or material shortages, hoarders reminding the rest of us we should have been too, speculators buying fricken everything in sight, truck driver shortages. It appears to be getting better but the early expectations that it would all subside by fall 2021 were off. I would guess another year before things stabilize depending upon a lot of things that might affect it.

From: APauls
21-Nov-21
President of Federal ammo did a good interview.

Had to cut production due to poor sales in Trump era. Biden wins, demand through the roof coupled with supply chain issues coupled with hoarding coupled with having to increase production processes.

From: DanaC
21-Nov-21
Remember that the Remington ammunition plant was practically shut down while the company went through bankruptcy. Federal's parent company owns it now and they're ramping back up. Takes time.

From: Shuteye
21-Nov-21
I have local shop that has always had any kind of ammo I want and I am stocked up for the rest of my life. The one exception was 350 Legend ammo when the price went sky high. I have enough to last for years if I only use it for deer hunting. My wife had a contact in Tennessee that supplied her with .380, 9 mm, .38 and 357 mag so she has some If I should get low.

From: timex
22-Nov-21
The only shortage in my area during the obummer administration was after sandy hook AR type rifles .223 amo & for whatever reason that I've never understood was .22 rimfire ammo was non existent ???

From: DanaC
22-Nov-21
Then there are the dealers scalping ammo on Gun Broker etc. People see the high prices and buy *more* because "well it's scarce and just gonna get worse, so..."

There are still weak points in the supply chain, someone mentioned brass above. Looking for new cases in a different caliber, everything is back-ordered out of sight. Mixed range brass is selling at premium prices.

From: 2Wild Bill
22-Nov-21
"Mixed range brass is selling at premium prices."

At a gun show last month I had a bag(150?) of .44spl brass that I tagged at $40 and nobody showed any interest.

From: molsonarcher
22-Nov-21
@2wildbill If that was .223, 9mm, .308, etc you would have had a bidding war Any of the current military, popular self-defense, or hunting rounds here are in very high demand There isnt much available in our area for sale right now in the way of components My wife and i went to the range on friday. There wasnt a single piece of brass laying anywhere. Normally when you walk out to change your targets it goes crunch with the cases laying everywhere. The range officer said they havent had to pick up any brass since yhis time last yesr, and the steel/aluminum cases they pick up are going to the scrapyard.

From: Dale06
22-Nov-21
I picked up over 500 223 cases and a similar number of 9mm two days ago. At my range, the local police practice, and I expect they had just left. I added this brass to my inventory.

From: Squash
22-Nov-21
“Production at a all time high,”??? How do you know that ? With all of the supply chain and worker shortages issues with every other industry, how can ammo manufacturers be producing at a all time high ? Powder , brass, primer , workers, shortages, but ammo is being produced at a all time high ? Not buying it , we all know the politicians are lying to us, (and the anti-gun people are loving this ammo shortage,)and I’d be willing to bet the ammo Co. are stretching the truth too.

From: Surfbow
22-Nov-21
Tons of 9mm .223 for sale at my local places (but few people buying it now) plus a fair amount of .22LR and 12ga buckshot, but slim pickings on everything else...

From: Grey Ghost
22-Nov-21
I inherited my Father's guns and reloading cabinet 27 years ago. I had never thoroughly looked thru the cabinet until last weekend. To my surprise, there's enough brass, bullets, powder, and primers to reload thousands of rounds of 30 cal and 7mm rifle loads. All the necessary equipment was also in there. It was a pleasant surprise.

Question. Is there a shelf life on powder? I know some of this stuff has to be pushing 40-50 years old.

Matt

From: DanaC
22-Nov-21
Lots of 308 and 223 fmj's for sale at the local Cabelas recently, hunting ammo still sparse. Since MA is a shotgun state for deer the shortage of slugs has people talking about using their muzzle-loaders, BUT finding 209 primers is a treasure hunt too.

From: 70lbdraw
22-Nov-21
I've been ordering online. Quick turnaround and reasonably priced. Plus it saves me from driving all over hells half acre to find it!

From: Kurt
22-Nov-21
For GG, powder keeps almost indefinitely if kept dry in a sealed container. If the containers are metal and likely are from that era, check them. The powder should not be turning reddish (rusty looking) nor have a lot of aroma. Should look gray, not be clumped up etc.

I have used shotgun powders recently of the DuPont era that dates back 50 years. Specifically the 700X I picked up chronographs exactly the same fps at the same weight charge as Hodgdon 700X purchased new in 2021.

From: jjs
22-Nov-21
Have a gent been doing construction here for the last year and has close friends that work at the Federal Ammo plant and they have been running full out production, the wearhouse is full. With 7 million gun new gun buyers from this year the supply and demand has been under great pressure plus with a primmer backup.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Nov-21
Kurt,

Thanks. The powder is in metal containers, and has been kept dry, so it sounds like it should still be good.

Among other gems, I also found a live 20 mm round that has what appears to be a tin or zinc plated case. The thing is HUGE! I have no idea where my Father acquired that from. There was also an ancient unopened box of 30-40 Krag shells. To my knowledge, my father never owned a 30-40. I wish I would have sat down with my Father and gotten all the back-stories on some of this stuff before he died.

Matt

From: Squash
22-Nov-21
So JJ , “warehouse is full” ? Are you saying it’s a trucking issue ? That I might give some credence to. But the other comments, I don’t care about 9MM , 5.56, and most of the 308 ammo I’ve seen on the shelves is not hunting ammo. I understand LE and the city gangbangers need that ammo. But how about some hunting calibers like the 30-06 ? LOL

From: Kurt
22-Nov-21
GG, I will caution you to use loading data for the correct powder that you have. As an example, Dupont or IMR 4350 are not the same as H4350 (Hodgdon). Same with Dupont or IMR4831 vs H4831.

I assume you have loading manuals from that era with the powders and reloading equipment. Ensure the recipe you use is for the exact nomenclature of the powder you have.

Good luck with it, and start at the bottom end of the data, well away from maximum loads and work up. Read all the info in the manuals on getting started reloading. Hodgdon has good info, as do many other sources.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Nov-21
Kurt,

Thanks for the info. I do have my father's loading manuals. He also conveniently labeled all of his boxes of loaded rounds with the type and weight of the bullet and powder . For example, his favorite 30-06 load appears to be 49 gr. of 4895 powder and 150 gr. Sierra bullets. I spent many hours helping my father reload ammo, but it's been over 40 years ago, so I will definitely do my research before I attempt to use any of his old stuff.

Matt

From: 12yards
22-Nov-21
Due to some erratic shooting this fall, I was starting to get concerned about our supply of steel waterfowl loads. I stopped at a usually well stocked Farm and Fleet store and the shelves were bare save for 2 boxes of 3.5" hevi shot for $50 something a box of 25. I don't have a 3.5" gun. Thankfully the shooting improved and the targets decreased in abundance and we survived the season. BTW, it was mostly my son's erratic shooting. LOL.

22-Nov-21

Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Glunt@work's embedded Photo
My daughter and God son helped construct the goose blind this weekend. Hoping to have an ammo shortage soon. Shelves are full of 10g. I'm not opposed to buying one if it comes to that.

From: cnelk
22-Nov-21

cnelk's Link
This is a great reloading data website - see link

From: JL
22-Nov-21
FWIW......I scored alot of great reload info and recipes from Long Range Hunter and talking to the guy in charge of the reloading dept at Nosler. I've even sent him some of my recipes that work well for my cal's. Anyone should be able to call the reload guru at the bullet manufacture and pick his/her brain for details. Some of the Nosler details I got weren't in the reload manual....mainly what bullet type liked what jump.

22-Nov-21
I just want some 7 mag ammo and when I can find it the brand and the weight is all over the place

From: JL
22-Nov-21

JL's Link
^......Shooters Pro Shop has some

From: DanaC
23-Nov-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo

23-Nov-21
Just saw $23 for a box of 9mm? Seems dang expensive, that was just target rounds

From: Hank_S
23-Nov-21
For reloaders, there are supplies of bullets (shot), powder and primers out there, mainly at the on line stores. I have a list of sites that I check daily and when I find what I want in stock I buy it then...don't wait!

Currently, there seems to be a lot of bullets available (hence the "black Friday" sales) with some powder and almost no primers. I would also check you local "Arms List" for components that individuals are selling.

From: 70lbdraw
23-Nov-21
"Just saw $23 for a box of 9mm? Seems dang expensive, that was just target rounds".

Up here a box of 50 9mm is going above 30 a box. I've Ben getting them online for $15 for a box of 50.

Am I the only one that does it online?

From: JL
23-Nov-21

JL's Link
Just got this from the bro......take it for what it's worth. Some folks say not true....depends on who ya ask I guess.

"Hodgdon's Has shut down all powder Production as of last Thursday"

This was also in that LRH thread.

"Today at 1:52 PM

#8

Just got word that Norma is no longer going to ship their brass to the US. What you see now is what you get."

From: JL
23-Nov-21

JL's Link
Scammer Alert. This also came in from the bro. I ran across these guys 2-3 weeks ago. The Mexican sounding guy I spoke to said they have everything listed on the website. It was too good to be true and I suspected a scam when he said I couldn't order over the phone.

""Riveraamunition.com has a regular website selling ammo and etc.

They are a COMPLETE SCAM, PAID them with ZELLE (through Bank Of America)and there is no getting your money back. Might as well have wired Money. A $501.00 up by me. They also texted me trying to get more money saying they needed another $200. to ship it.

Have alerted BOA

Sent money to [email protected] Phone # is 205-336-2171 BE VERY CAREFULL WITH ZELLE PAYMENTS.

Do not screw up like me. Please help spread the word about these guys!!

thanks, ""

23-Nov-21
Keep an eye on Ammoseek and usually get what I need. 9mm is about $00.31/rd. for brass case. Look for the places with free shipping on bigger orders.

From: JL
23-Nov-21
You can go to places like Graf's, Brownells, Midway, etc and put some stuff on back order and you'll go to the front of the line when stuff does come in. I've got some parts/pieces/powder/primers like that. I've got some low-profile sources that get stuff in. I check their sites everyday.

From: nehunter
23-Nov-21
My biggest customer is SIG Sauer in NH. The management has told me that it's about the Primer production.

It's the hardest part of ammunition to manufacturer. It's basically a paste and very difficult/dangerous to manufacturer. It goes Boom very easily and requires special machinery and process's. Not very easy for any Joe Blow company to just start making.

SIG is in the process of starting a primer manufacturer facility in the South. They already own an ammo mfg facility in Arkansas.

Just think about it, every other piece of a bullet is easy to make.

From: Shuteye
24-Nov-21
I have a relative that is a Swat Team member. When he sometimes comes to do some practicing I could load up on .223 and .40 brass. He has to take the grenade launcher cases back. He let me shoot it and I hit the target. No recoil at all. Has a red dot sight and since they are dummy rounds that may account for lack of recoil.

24-Nov-21
I know another major manufacturer that is building their own primer operation along with huge overall capacity increases.

From: Milhouse
24-Nov-21
I could write a book about this stuff.... I've worked in firearms/ammo retail for about 10 years. This is at least the 3rd ammo shortage in that time frame. By far the worst. It starts as a shortage. The shortage is prolonged by hoarding. People will keep buying, as long as they perceive there is a shortage.

A couple tips.... ammo isn't milk. Don't buy it like milk. When it is plentiful, and relatively cheap... buy some. Here and there, when you find it at a good price, buy some. Don't shoot it all up. It doesn't hurt to have some for a rainy day. It's truly amazing, the number of people who keep 6 rounds of ammo in reserve for their pet rifle, then walk in, totally incredulous when you tell them, "sorry, don't have it." The responses are gold sometimes.... "WHY DON'T YOU ORDER SOME?" "Well, what am I supposed to do????" My personal favorite is, "You should order a whole pallet."

Having been through this, knowing nearly every one of these people have also been through it.... several times, leaves me with precious little sympathy for 98% of the people out there that have not learned one thing from their past experiences.

From: cnelk
24-Nov-21
Who da thunk that a archery website would be so popular with reloading…

From: JL
24-Nov-21
I suppose when build up an arrow you can say you're reloading too.

It's obvious many bow hunters reload ammo too. It's a good topic of wide interest.

From: DanaC
25-Nov-21
Anything that 'keeps your eye in' is good, imo. Any weapon requires mental focus to shoot well. (Not saying that plinking with a 22 will make you a top archer, but it can't hurt.)

From: DanaC
25-Nov-21
Milhouse, good advise. I've accumulated enough so that 'shortages' don't send me into panic mode. I don't shoot as much as some here but I can go warm up any of my guns without a problem. Have a couple years' supply of reloading components for my rifles, and I 'check the shelves' when I'm at the store but haven't had to pay scalper prices for anything (yet.)

Seeing 'a bit' more at the stores, just letting the hoarders bankrupt themselves ;-)

From: txhunter58
25-Nov-21
Millhouse. Def by far the worst. We get used to “the sky is falling” mentality from the past and I have never bought into that. But no one could have foreseen what something like Covid could do to supply and demand.

So I have enough to hunt with for at least another 3-4 years, but I haven’t been a hoarder, so I don’t have enough ammo to just go plink/ practice. And as many have stated, I refuse to pay scalpers prices. So hopefully we find our way out of the abyss sometime in the next year or two

From: PECO
25-Nov-21
I don't know but I have never seen a shortage of shotgun ammo, even during the obama era. I went dove hunting this fall for the first time. Learned I'm not such a great shot..... Any how I just want to replace the boxes of shells I shot up. Crazy expensive when I find it.

From: PECO
25-Nov-21
I don't know but I have never seen a shortage of shotgun ammo, even during the obama era. I went dove hunting this fall for the first time. Learned I'm not such a great shot..... Any how I just want to replace the boxes of shells I shot up. Crazy expensive when I find it.

From: Kurt
25-Nov-21
Here is a quick read on where powder is produced I copied off another forum. There is one production plant in the US located in St. Marks Florida.

"It's the onetime Olin Corp plant, now part of General Dynamics. It makes double-based ball powders only or those (Such as Hodgdon Hybrid 100V and some Alliant types) using the same slurry / distillation based process.

All Winchester and Hodgdon ball / 'spherical' grades are supplied by St. Marks as are nearly all propellants used in US military smallarms ammo, the US government having decided way back in the 1950s with 7.62 adoption that this type would be the norm, sniper and special purpose ammo aside.

Ramshot / Accurate ball powder comes from PB Clermont in Belgium. Hodgdon extruded grades and IMR-8208 XBR from Thales / ADI in Mulwala, NSW, Australia. Other than 8208 XBR, IMR extruded rifle powders are also made by a General Dynamics Corp owned plant in Valleyfield, Ontario, Canada. (Hodgdon owns the IMR brand name and marketing rights IIRC.) This plant also makes some Accurate brand extruded numbers. All Vihtavuori powders come from the town of that name in Finland.

Alliant 'Reloder' extruded grades were all made by Bofors in Sweden until a few years ago, but some recent additions such as Re17 and Re33 are sourced from Nitrochemie Wimmins AG in Switzerland. Alliant has also started using spherical grades from St. Marks.

Health & Safety and the EPA is the primary reason that all extruded powders are made outside of the USA. Ball types manufacture uses non-inflammable / explosive slurries with material piped between processes until the little balls are distilled out at a late stage for chemical treatments and grading. This method also allows old out of date propellants to be recycled alongside fresh ingredients reducing costs.

Extruded powders start by dissolving cellulose in powerful acids, a dangerous exothermic process and whose products are immediately highly explosive and inflammable, then further inherently dangerous processes and solvents are used to convert 'guncotton' into usable propellants. Many of the materials used are corrosive and toxic, likewise creating waste and pollution issues that have to be dealt with nowadays, not just dumped into waste ground or rivers as would once have been done.

All this makes the manufacture of this type inherently riskier which in this day and age is also much more expensive. A guy in the handloading powder business told me years ago that the EPA hadn't banned extruded powder manufacture, but its regulations were so onerous that any such produced in the country would be so expensive, nobody would buy them."

From: Thornton
26-Nov-21
I find plenty of ammo here in Kansas, and have all summer. Game load shotgun shells are hard to come by at times though.

From: RK
26-Nov-21
The Russians or anybody else setting up any kind of manufacturing plant still have to deal with supply chain issues They will have the same issues.

Russians , Chinese or Aliens are not magical

From: DanaC
26-Nov-21
Can't even imagine the red tape involved in building a new ammo plant. EIS's a mile high.

From: DanaC
27-Nov-21

DanaC's Link
Russia (and Korea) are making rounds with lead-free priming compounds. Not as accurate (yet) as standard primers,* but that could improve. 'Lead' is a four letter word in many places and there could be a sizeable market for it, especially for indoor shooting.

*military tests in 308 rifles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition#Primer_chemistry

From: Grey Ghost
27-Nov-21
My local Big R store had plenty of ammo, yesterday. They even had 2 reloading die sets that I needed. However, when I asked the clerk about powder and primers, he just looked at me and laughed. He said he hasn't had either of those for months.

Matt

From: DanaC
27-Nov-21
Plenty on GunBroker, scalper prices. $100/lb for some powders. Nuts.

From: Grey Ghost
02-Dec-21

Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
This thread inspired me to make my own compact reloading bench using all my Father's old equipment, including his RCBS Model A press, lathe style case trimmer, buffing wheel, and his vintage Torsion Balance Company pharmaceutical scale (my favorite piece). Everything still works perfectly. So far, I've completed 20 rounds of 30-06 loads, and I'm currently working on 40 rounds of 7mm Remington Mag, using my father's favorite recipes.

I'm really enjoying re-learning this skill, and can't wait to shoot some of my own reloads.

Matt

From: No Mercy
02-Dec-21
Reloading components are low because the companies are using this product to make ammo. Ammo is low because of all the new gun owners and hoarders. I work at a sporting goods company-we get ammo daily in all of our stores. Most days there are people waiting to get in the door at 9 AM to see what ammo is there.

From: DanaC
04-Dec-21
There was actually a good supply of Federal 22's - in the 325 round packs - at the local Walmart yesterday. I was shocked but managed to recover and buy a few... Paid less for 325 than I did for 100 rounds a month ago at a local scalp shop ;-)

From: timex
04-Dec-21
Gg. Just some advice. I'd definitely not just sit & load up a bunch of rounds without testing. Perhaps if for your father's guns & he already did the work. But the beauty of reloads is matching a load to a specific gun for optimum accuracy. Bullet seating depth is probably the most important followed by different powder burn rates for different barrel lengths. Long barrel slow powder short barrel faster powder. Good luck.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Dec-21
Timex,

Thanks for the advise. Fortunately, I have several boxes of my Father's reloads, with his recipes well labeled. I used those rounds to determine trimmed case length and overall cartridge length. I also started with brass that my father had already de-capped/resized, and trimmed. I will be shooting my reloads out the same rifles he used to work up his recipes, so I'm confident they should shoot well. I'm especially anxious to shoot his 7mm mag that he custom built, including starting from scratch with a block of walnut for the stock. I recall shooting dime sized groups at 100 yards with that rifle when I was a teenager.

Matt

04-Dec-21
I love reloading. It’s so satisfying. Plus fun.

From: JL
04-Dec-21

JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
I like reloading too. It's a good feeling when you finally figure out what particular load matches up to the barrel to get cloverleafs.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Dec-21

Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Great shooting, JL.

Well, here are the first 16 shots of my 7mm mag reloads. My shooting is rusty, and conditions were a bit windy, but I'm pleased with the results. I think I can tighten up my groups when I do a bit more shooting. I'd also like to get a higher powered scope. My Father's old straight 6-power Leupold just isn't enough for my aging eyes anymore.

Matt

From: JL
04-Dec-21
Matt.,

Thanks....I have similar patterns with my Ruger .270and Ruger .300WM. It took a lot of trial and error loads to get there....but it can be done.

FWIW.....the following is Capt Obvious stuff but I think it's worth mentioning. Four things I would suggest to anybody who is chasing cloverleafs. First....get a quality scope with a deep magnification...especially as your eyes age (like mine!). I put Vortex's on 4 of my rifles. That 6.5 PRC has a Vortex Razor AMG. It has a 6-24x50. It is a short, lightweight scope with a lot of power. With that power.....I can watch small flies or gnats walk around on the target at 100yards. The reticle is thin enough not to block the center of the bullseye. On my Ruger .270, I dumped the Leupold (4.5-16x50) that was on there and went to the Vortex Razor LHT in 4.5-22x50. That is another short, lightweight scope with a lot of power. It makes a huge difference when trying to check loads with my eyes. I also bought a nice scope mounting kit to get the crosshairs true to the barrel and vertical. I have no doubt those scopes helped me tighten up my POI's.

Second....get your triggers done if they are not already adjustable. I did both Ruger triggers. One was a Timney and the other was a Rifle Basix. The Christensen Arms one already has a light factory trigger that can be adjusted if need be. A stiff, factory trigger hurts your POI's. Also....if bringing two different rifles to the range to shoot, do some dry runs first on your trigger pull. This gets your eyes, trigger finger, muscles and brain in synch for that trigger. When you start on the second rifle....same thing...do some dry fires to re-synch your stuff to the trigger.

Third.....since starting to reload, I had to re-learn how to shoot for load testing. I got some nice range bags for the front and back. I also put both hands around each other while on the trigger and rest the elbows on the bench. I no longer grab or hold the front stock. I let the front bag hold it. That gives 4-points of support to hold the crosshair steady. IMO that is very important for stability and consistency.

Fourth.....wait 2 - 4 minutes between shots to let the barrel temp cool off. Shooting with a hot barrel can mess up your POI's. I'm always putting my hand on the barrel to feel the temp. Some folks think you have to break in your barrel. Some folks say high end rifle barrels do not need to be broken in whereas production barrels do. Same for fouling the barrel. I'll foul a barrel first with a couple of fouling rounds. When sighting in for real, I'll leave it fouled for the hunt. Again....alot of different opinions on those things....just depends one where you're reading.

Take all of this for what it's worth......these little things are what helped me as I learned from trial and alot of error. Other folks might have some helpful tips too.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Dec-21
JL,

I have a question hopefully you can answer. According to my manuals, the recommended trimmed case length for the 7mm Rem mag is 2.490". On the reloads I did, I verified each case length before reloading and they were all +/- .002" of that length. These were cases my father had already de-capped, resized, and presumably trimmed. After firing 16 rounds of my reloads, I was curious how much the cases had lengthened. To my surprise, they are all still exactly the same overall length as before firing. I was under the impression the brass always lengthens slightly when fired. Is that not always true?

Matt

From: JL
04-Dec-21

JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
Matt,

In my limited experience, the first firing or two might affect case length. After you trim it under SAMMI that first or second time, it shouldn't lengthen unless you run a real hot powder load. Of course the neck sizing will need to be redone after each firing. I would also check for neck cracks/splits and dimples before and after resizing. Even some of the new Nolser brass (blem and overruns) I got had some neck splits....so check new brass too. Some readily visible, some you can detect by running your fingernail around the perimeter of the neck lip. In the pic, the case on the bottom has a split neck. The case on the top has shoulder dimples which maybe forming a split. If you see dimples, look real close for any sign of the dimple leading to a crack/split. I haven't had any issues with small dimples. However if any splits anywhere...toss the brass in the trash. Also....if you use too much case lube when resizing, that can cause shoulder dimples. I guess it is from the excess hydraulic action on the shoulder creates the dimples. The lube gets trapped and dimples the brass.

John

From: Grey Ghost
04-Dec-21
JL,

Thank you. I culled a few cases from my father’s stash that had dimples around the shoulder, probably from too much lube when resizing. I also thoroughly cleaned his old dies. They were pretty grimy. I have no idea how old some of his brass is, or how many times it’s been fired. I’m starting to realize my old man was a hoarder before it became popular. ;-).

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
04-Dec-21

From: JL
04-Dec-21

JL's Link
I think if your dad's brass is getting too thin from too many firings and resizings or if unsure, it might be safer to get some new brass to be on the safe side. I get most of my stuff from Shooters Pro Shop in Bend, OR. They are the Nosler outlet store, give a military/LE discount and $13 flat rate shipping. The link is to the 7mm Mag brass. They had some the other day. They also had some 7mm Accubonds in a couple of weights not too long ago.

From: DanaC
04-Dec-21
Don't throw brass away, your local shooting club might be recycling it. Our club made a few $$ doing so last year.

From: DanaC
05-Dec-21
""Fourth.....wait 2 - 4 minutes between shots to let the barrel temp cool off. Shooting with a hot barrel can mess up your POI's.""

Good advice. I shoot a light carbine (Remington Model Seven) that will 'walk' as the barrel heats up. Used to rush and groups would open up. Last time I took my time and waited between shots I got an honest 1 inch 5-shot group. And this is not a new synthetic space gun but one I purchased in 1986. Walnut and steel.

From: Hank_S
05-Dec-21
Wow!

A LOT of detail can go into rifle reloading that I never knew about! I've been reloading shotgun ammo for many years and starting reloading 9mm about 5 years ago (thinking pistol reloading was much more complex than shotgun).

I don't think that I have the patience for rifle reloading...good thing that my trigger pull isn't good for rifle shooting!

From: Grey Ghost
05-Dec-21

Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Hank,

Rifle reloading is actually fun, once you get the system down. I reloaded 20 rounds yesterday in about 45 minutes start to finish. But then, I also enjoy tying my own flies for fly fishing, so I guess I have the mentality for it.

Thanks, again, for your help finding the powder I needed.

Matt

From: JL
05-Dec-21
Hank.....once ya get going, it is fairly easy as you're doing the same thing over and over. I got into reloading earlier this year as my brother said it was the way to go and I wasn't going to be a slave to the whims of ammo availability and the rising cost. I haven't itemized materials for a cost, but I can probably make a box (20) of premium rifle ammo for less than $20. Whereas if ya have to buy that same box of factory premium ammo you're looking at around at least $55 - $60 depending on caliber and brand....and if you can even find it. Plus not all factory ammo will be a good match for your rifle barrel. Reloading allows you to develop a load that you know will match your barrel. My initial cost to get into rifle reloading was a bit of money but I have reloaded so many rounds/boxes now that I believe I'm getting close to breaking even if I haven't already. So.....in these times, reloading your rifle ammo is the way to go.

From: RT
05-Dec-21

From: Grey Ghost
05-Dec-21
JL,

Do you de-burr the flash holes of your rifle brass? That's a step I learned from a YouTube video. My Father never did it, but the theory made sense to me, so I bought the necessary tool to do it.

I also learned about annealing brass that has become work hardened from repeated firings. Apparently it will extend the life of the brass considerably, and provide more consistent neck tension on the bullets for more accuracy. I'm not sure I'll get that anal with my reloads, but I did find it interesting.

Matt

From: spike78
05-Dec-21
JL bingo! I used to shoot with the lead sled and holding the guns with both hands now I have switched to bags and only one hand makes a ton of difference! I did not like the way the lead sled works either as it is unnatural making the length seem longer on your shoulder.

From: spike78
05-Dec-21
GG I reload for my .308 and use the old school Lee whack it loader lol. I don’t do anything out of the ordinary nor do I clean my brass and they come out just fine. Not bad shooting but I firmly believe with a lower recoil gun like a 6.5 or .308 you will be a hell of a lot better then with a 7mm. With today’s lower recoiling gems I doubt I will ever want or need a magnum. I have been shooting one arm off the bags and I think my .308 is about as max recoil as I would want one handed.

From: JL
05-Dec-21
Matt....yes, I de-burr the flash hole once. I have the de-burring tool to do that. I guess during the manufacturing process, the stamping of the flash hole leaves a burr or two inside the brass case. That supposedly can impede the primer flash distribution to the powder. I also clean out the primer pockets each cleaning to get any crud out of them. Ya want the new primers to fully seat. Frankford Arsenal makes an electric station that does the case trimming, de-burring, cleaning, etc all in one shot. I was considering getting one of those. Frankford Arsenal is a member on the Expert Voice site and you can great huge (real huge!) discounts on their products via Expert Voice. Any vet or LE bubba can join Expert Voice. I bought my rotary brass cleaner, powder trickler and digital micrometer thru them. Plus a bunch of ammo holders/cases.

From: JL
05-Dec-21
Spike.....I tried a lead sled once and didn't care for it either. I have long arms and the bags work a lot better for me. And yes...the hands in the back thing works so much better for holding the crosshairs steady...at least for me and apparently you too. I also like to feel the stock in my shoulder so I can get use to the recoil...especially on the .300 WM. I've shot that so much now, I no longer think about any recoil(s). All of my rifles, except the new 6.5 PRC, have SVS pads on the butt. A huge improvement for felt recoil.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Dec-21
Spike78,

As I mentioned earlier, my Father custom made the 7mm mag that I have. He used a match grade barrel that is HEAVY. Due to the overall weight of the rifle, it has a very mild recoil. It kicks less than the 30-06 sporters that he made.

I have a buddy who is into the new AR style rifles, too. I've shot his 308 and 223, and they do shoot nice, but I still prefer my Father's old bolt action bang sticks, each with a beautiful wallnut stock that he made. I guess it's a sentimental thing.

Matt

From: spike78
05-Dec-21
Ahh must have missed that does it have a brake on it? Was reading with a quality brake you can also get 30% less recoil on top of that.

From: JL
05-Dec-21

JL's Link
FWIW.....here is the 2021 recoil chart. You can see the estimated recoil for your caliber.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Dec-21
No brake. Just a heavy old-school hunting rifle. If you don't shoulder it tightly, it will bite you, but otherwise it's a pleasure to shoot.

Matt

From: spike78
05-Dec-21
I’ve been seriously pondering getting a bolt gun in 6.5 Grendel for predators to black bear here in the Northeast. Very little recoil and good enough for all my needs under 200 yards. Decisions decisions.

From: JL
05-Dec-21
I didn't shoulder one of my ML's tight on a deer shot once and got scoped on the eyebrow. Didn't realize it until I felt something running down my face I thought was sweat. Along with the pad, my .300 is ported so that takes off some bite. It's still not bad at all.

From: Hank_S
05-Dec-21
Thanks guys, rifle reloading sounds interesting (and you guys are shooting some impressive groups)…I think that I’ll stay with 12 ga., 20 ga. and 9mm. Having a bunch of fun with that.

At this point, I don’t need another expensive hobby and I don’t have the time!

05-Dec-21
Brakes work but they can be hard on the guy sitting at the bench next to you or your buddy spotting for you when hunting if he's not positioned right. I prefer not having them.

From: DanaC
06-Dec-21
Hank, if you're shooting 4-5 boxes (20/per) of rifle ammo a year reloading starts making economic sense. Otherwise not so much. You might ask around if any of your buds reloads in your pet caliber, bet they'd appreciate the empty brass.

9 mm makes sense to reload, if you shoot lots of it a 'progressive' press will save you money and time. I played with 12 gauge reloading, not worth it to me.

From: timex
06-Dec-21

timex's embedded Photo
Not a good pic but action & new barrel barrel
timex's embedded Photo
Not a good pic but action & new barrel barrel
Spike... check out northland shooters supply. I'm currently building another 6.5 × 284. Bought a pawn shop savage 110. Ordered a barrel, barrel nut, Recoil lug, headspace Guage, action wrench & barrel nut wrench and a rifle basics trigger from nss. Got an aluminum block bedded bell & carolson stock coming gonna be a medium weight gun. Went with 26" heavy sporter contour criterion barrel. Perhaps not the cheapest option or way to go but I really enjoy the doing it myself aspect of it. Another benefit is once ya have the tools doing a barrel swap with any cartridge in the same bolt head size & action length will only cost ya the price of a new barrel & head space Guage. I ll post some finished pics. Should be testing loads by next weekend. A 6.5 sweed would also be a great mid range cartridge.

From: timex
06-Dec-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Don't have a clue where the above pic came from. I'll try again

From: DanaC
06-Dec-21
" 26" heavy sporter contour criterion barrel."

Sounds like the far end of the field won't be a 'safe space' any more ;-)

06-Dec-21
My reloads, across all rifle cartridges I shoot, chronograph within 1-2% of one another in the 20 round batches I’ve tested. I debur the neck and the flash hole, trim or check length every reload, and separate my brass by weight and head stamp. I also crimp every round. I weigh powder loads too. Which probably isn’t required for good accuracy versus volume loading but, I spent the money on truckers always back. So, I use it.

It’s all about consistency. If you do everything the same, you’ll have tack driving accuracy with stock guns of old. Newer synthetic offerings that are blocked and pillared are remarkably accurate with anything you put in them. However, Older guns of wood stock or synthetic material that aren’t pillared tend to get a little funky when that barrel starts getting warm.

Anyways, the idea is consistency. The only way to do that is to be mindful to use brass lots that allow that.

From: timex
06-Dec-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
It already isn't safe on the other side of the field this gun has a 29" #17 mtu contour barrel it's a straight taper from 1.25 at action to 1" at the muzzle the fluting saves a little weight but it's really heavy. 8×32 × 56 scope. Strictly a field gun. I'm usually off work by 4:00 pm have several fields I watch till dark. Honestly I don't consider it hunting but rather grocery shopping with a gun. I do however spend my weekends in the woods actually hunting.

From: Hank_S
06-Dec-21
Thanks guys, rifle reloading sounds interesting (and you guys are shooting some impressive groups)…I think that I’ll stay with 12 ga., 20 ga. and 9mm. Having a bunch of fun with that.

At this point, I don’t need another expensive hobby and I don’t have the time!

From: JL
06-Dec-21
The topic of barrels and specifically barrel floating is a good one. The CA 6.5 PRC I have has a factory floated barrel. What is of interest is the Ruger M77 MKII's I have are not designed to have the barrels floated. I watched some YT vids of guys trying to float their Ruger M77 barrels in hopes of getting better accuracy. I did some research on that plus called the rifle techs at Ruger. That is how I found out the forward barrel screw by design draws the barrel into the stock tight. It is not supposed to be bedded. It has to do with the recoil affecting the barrel and barrel stability. The tech said you can mess up the gun by floating the barrel. This screw is by the floor plate on the front side. If your Ruger's POI's are stating to drift, check to make sure that screw is not loose. When I checked my M77's, one had a loose barrel screw.

From: timex
06-Dec-21
Jl that's somewhat confusing to me. Yes absolutely at the front action screw & Recoil lug area & the rear action screw area there should be solid contact with the stock,or bedding epoxy or pillers if piller bedded or the aluminum if aluminum bedded. I fully understand that but from the Recoil lug forward I don't understand why there should be barrel contact with the stock.

06-Dec-21
In front of the lug should free float but on a rare occasion I have seen purposely adding a contact point tighten groups up. I assume altering the barrel vibration is the reason but that is a couple out of many dozens of accurized rifles and just lucky experiments when all the other normal steps didn't work.

From: JL
06-Dec-21
The Ruger tech said the whole barrel bed is supposed to provide support for the barrel.

Here is a Ruger vid discussing this angled screw.

From: JL
06-Dec-21
In the vid, he mentions the "angled bedding system". That is what the tech rep mentioned too as what helps or maintain the accuracy in these Rugers. I've had one of my stocks off before and I know it's a funny fit to put it back on.

From: cnelk
06-Dec-21

cnelk's embedded Photo
cnelk's embedded Photo
Here’s a good indicator of the difference between factory ammo and handloads.

After this range session, the handload group got even tighter.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Dec-21
What were you shooting, cnelk? What power scope?

Matt

From: cnelk
06-Dec-21
I worked up a load for my son’s 270.

Leupold 3x9 scope

From: JL
06-Dec-21

JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
CN......FYI if you're interested in some .270 loads to play with and see if they will work in your son's rifle.

This is a 150gr Nosler Partition load I worked up.

From: JL
06-Dec-21
For some reason the BS website isn't posting up more text in the above post and the pics are posting sideways again. The other target is .270 150gr Accubond Long Range. It was the new Vortex LHT scope on that and I was trying to get the groups 1" high at 100yds. After making a few scope adjustments, It ended up about 1-1/4" high at 100 so I stopped there.

From: cnelk
06-Dec-21

cnelk's embedded Photo
cnelk's embedded Photo
Another example what fine tuning a rifle handload can do. Just a grain or two of powder makes a difference

From: Hank_S
06-Dec-21
Cnelk…you can fine tune your powder load closer. Dump ten times the powder load to get (for example) 47.25 or 46.75.

One of my “go to” 9mm loads is 3.55 grains behind a 100 grain bullet. Unbelievable, but you can tell the difference (recoil and grouping) between that and 3.58 grains.

From: cnelk
06-Dec-21

cnelk's embedded Photo
cnelk's embedded Photo
Handload - One shot group - 560yds

From: Hank_S
06-Dec-21
Nice!

From: grizzly63
07-Dec-21
Guess that dog had his day!

From: DanaC
07-Dec-21
Heckuva shot!

From: Grey Ghost
07-Dec-21
That's a helluva shot, Cnelk.

My personal best shot was a 376 yard prairie dog, freehand from a kneeling position. It was total luck, really. I couldn't even see the prairie dog because the crosshairs of my 6 power scope were completely obscuring it.

Matt

From: Rocky D
07-Dec-21
Cnelk, what was the wind call on that shot?

From: Rocky D
07-Dec-21
Uhg

From: cnelk
07-Dec-21
There was no wind on that shot. That gun is my old 243 Remington Model 660 carbine. 55gr Nosler Ballistic tips [Id have to go look at my notes for the Varget powder charge]

It wasnt my furthest 'ranged' kill shot - that is 610yds on a coyote with the same gun

From: cnelk
07-Dec-21

cnelk's embedded Photo
cnelk's embedded Photo
The ‘610’ coyote

From: Rocky D
07-Dec-21
No wind always helps! Still nice work on the yote.

From: Hank_S
07-Dec-21
Nice!

From: timex
07-Dec-21

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
So here it is. From an old spray can painted pawn shop savage 110 in 243 to a custom 6.5×284 in a few weeks. 26" criterion barrel, rifle basics 4oz to 3lb trigger, bell & carolson aluminum bedded stock & 4×20×50 scope. All work done by myself. Can't wait to see how it shoots. I've read a lot of good things about the nss do it yourself rifle builds. I hope this is another success story.

From: Rocky D
07-Dec-21
Timex it’s pretty neat that you can do your own work.

Are you blueprinting the action or are you just screwing barrel off and putting a new on on ?

From: timex
07-Dec-21
No machine work done to the action or bolt. I did buy a new precision cut Recoil lug & barrel nut from nss along with the barrel. My other 6.5×284 I sent a 700 action to krieger barrels they trued the action & installed the barrel. I did the stock & trigger work & it shoots phenomenal. I'm a 700 fan but nss assured me the savage action is capable of the same accuracy. I sure hope so iv got a little $$$ tied up in this thing.

From: DonVathome
07-Dec-21
I cannot explain it. Basically I cannot find anything. 300 win mag. shotgun slugs. Birdshot. Nothing. Even when I look at random basically everything is out everywhere. I think I have looked for about 30 different types of ammo in the past 18 months I have literally not found a single thing. Zip. Online, manufacture, stores nada.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Dec-21
Timex,

I think it's time to crack that beer and celebrate your gunsmith abilities. Nice work!!

I have a military surplus 30-06 Enfield in nearly mint condition. I also have 2 walnut stock blanks that my father never got around to doing anything with. I've contemplated sporterizing the 30-06 because I think it would be a fun project that would take me back to the days of watching my Father do the same to several military rifles when I was a youngster. On the other hand, I know most gun collectors would bristle at the thought of chopping up a classic military rifle. Instead, I may go the route you did to build my own long range field gun.

Matt

From: JL
07-Dec-21

JL's Link
Don....check out Ammoseek.com. Here is a bunch of .300WM ammo.

That is a big reason I got into reloading.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Dec-21
Don,

I was just in our local Big R store yesterday. Their ammo shelves were very well stock with about every caliber of ammo you can imagine. I even found 3" 12 gauge shells in #6 shot, which are usually rare as hen's teeth. They still don't have any reloading powder or primers, though. Maybe you need to make an ammo run out west. ;-)

Matt

From: timex
07-Dec-21
Gg I'll get to try some loads probably Thurs. Still got to do some stock work to get barrel floated. If it shoots & your serious I'd lend ya the action wrench & barrel nut wrench to do it yourself.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Dec-21
That's a deal, Timex!!

There can't be a much better feeling than building your own tack driver out of someone's pawned off discard. I'd have a lot to learn, but I love those type challenges.

Matt

  • Sitka Gear