BlackOvis.com
Colorado Blaze orange survey
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
>>>--arrow1--> 05-Jan-22
PushCoArcher 05-Jan-22
[email protected] 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
Tdwhip 05-Jan-22
HDE 05-Jan-22
groundhunter50 05-Jan-22
PushCoArcher 05-Jan-22
[email protected] 05-Jan-22
TXCO 05-Jan-22
Jethro 05-Jan-22
SlipShot 05-Jan-22
Jaquomo 05-Jan-22
[email protected] 05-Jan-22
redquebec 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
[email protected] 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
Bou'bound 05-Jan-22
Jethro 05-Jan-22
txhunter58 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
[email protected] 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
cnelk 05-Jan-22
[email protected] 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
txhunter58 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
IdyllwildArcher 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
[email protected] 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
Cazador 05-Jan-22
Danbow 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
Danbow 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
Tdwhip 05-Jan-22
JohnMC 05-Jan-22
Danbow 05-Jan-22
Cazador 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
Danbow 05-Jan-22
sticksender 05-Jan-22
Jaquomo 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 05-Jan-22
Danbow 05-Jan-22
[email protected] 05-Jan-22
Grasshopper 05-Jan-22
Jaquomo 06-Jan-22
cnelk 06-Jan-22
trublucolo 06-Jan-22
DanaC 06-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-22
JohnMC 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-22
Jaquomo 06-Jan-22
cnelk 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
[email protected] 06-Jan-22
trublucolo 06-Jan-22
Jaquomo 06-Jan-22
trublucolo 06-Jan-22
JohnMC 06-Jan-22
DanaC 06-Jan-22
trublucolo 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
JohnMC 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
cnelk 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
cnelk 06-Jan-22
Jaquomo 06-Jan-22
Bowaddict 06-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-22
Fins&Feathers 06-Jan-22
[email protected] 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
KsRancher 06-Jan-22
Jaquomo 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-22
[email protected] 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
cnelk 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
Fins&Feathers 06-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-22
[email protected] 06-Jan-22
Bou'bound 06-Jan-22
Danbow 06-Jan-22
Jaquomo 06-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-22
[email protected] 06-Jan-22
Jims 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
Jaquomo 06-Jan-22
[email protected] 06-Jan-22
[email protected] 06-Jan-22
txhunter58 06-Jan-22
Danbow 07-Jan-22
[email protected] 07-Jan-22
Jaquomo 07-Jan-22
Bowfreak 07-Jan-22
trublucolo 07-Jan-22
txhunter58 07-Jan-22
txhunter58 07-Jan-22
Jethro 07-Jan-22
Jaquomo 07-Jan-22
yooper89 07-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-22
05-Jan-22

>>>--arrow1-->'s Link
Take the time to do the survey,,,, Bad Idea... >>>------>

From: PushCoArcher
05-Jan-22
I wish the CBA would throw this big of a fit about overcrowding.

05-Jan-22
Crowding a tough issue. Most people like the idea of less hunters in the field during their hunt but when it comes time to sit home every other September so that can happen, its not as popular. Plus, the CPW isn't excited about things that reduce revenue.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
I answered the survey this way:

1. Yes, I've purchased a big game archery tag in the last 3 years.

2. No, I would hunt in another state that doesn't force bowhunters to wear orange.

3. Yes, I would have a harder time harvesting big game.

4. Other - Make muzzleloader hunters do it. They're the ones shooting people.

Matt

From: Tdwhip
05-Jan-22
Why not address the problem at the source, require ML. Hunters to take a separate class in addition to the standard hunter safety class.

From: HDE
05-Jan-22
Simple solution: move muzzy season out of archery season.

Why complicate it? Oh wait, gov't. Never mind...

05-Jan-22
I use to be in Cortez Colorado, and years ago I chose to leave Colorado, but it is a nice state, just too many people for me,,,, With that said, ,,,,,,, I also never understood, that anytime you have a firearm, why you would not wear blaze orange. Just an opinion

From: PushCoArcher
05-Jan-22
Right I had my hat and vest on the whole time this year anyway. In the unit I hunted while I was hunting there was a rifle deer, rifle bear, muzzleloader bear, muzzleloader deer, and muzzleloader elk seasons running concurrent with my archery elk hunt. Don't get me wrong not a fan of increased regulations it's ridiculous and reactionary. Just cracks me up that this is what the CBA chooses to focus on. Just seems CPW whoring out its natural resources to NR and ruining the quality of hunting would be a bigger issue.

05-Jan-22
I think CBA is focusing on this because the CPW is focusing on this. The proposal is on the table to make us wear orange so its correct for the CBA to address it. But you are correct that there are dozens of other things screwed up about bowhunting in CO.

From: TXCO
05-Jan-22
I feel like the survey questions could have been a lot better and more direct.

From: Jethro
05-Jan-22
Exactly Glunt. CBA should be focused on it right now while its on CPW's agenda. Will do nobody any good to wait for CPW's decision before voicing an opinion.

From: SlipShot
05-Jan-22
Why is there not a option to give comments? Simple fact making new rules or having bow hunters wear orange is not going to fix stupid!

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-22
Send your comments to [email protected] That gets directly to them. The survey is important too, but those results get compiled into a database.

Yes crowding is a problem. The solutions are: Split season like in NM, with varying models. Going all draw. Capping NR OTC. Raising NR prices so high it becomes cost-prohibitive.

All draw is a likely outcome, but with the current NR cap that would make it a revenue loss. Some OTC units have more NRs than residents. Commission instructions to CPW is to make any changes "revenue-neutral, which makes this a Gordian Knot.

05-Jan-22
Jeffery, "who is waiting"? THe CBA bod is well aware of this issue as this issue has been discussed at the past two board meetings. THe CBA will testify during the CPW Commission public input meeting this month to maintain Status Quo and will also offer recommendations to educate the ML rifle hunters, especially during the overlap. THe CBA BOD is not sitting on its hands!

SlipSHot. you can individually send comments to the Commission so that is your option.

From: redquebec
05-Jan-22
So here's a strategy for bowhunters that find themselves in these situations. First of all I have never hunted in Colorado and do not know the logistics of overcrowding and hunting accidents. I hunt deer and moose only, hopefully will draw an elk tag in kentucky one of these years. Here's some simple advice, just my experience.

I hunt with a longbow, on the ground, no blinds, no treestands (there's a reason I include this information). For years I felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb wearing all that orange, sitting in the open against a tree. Totally blew my confidence. We all know what hunting feels like when you just don't believe in your set up...ugh. (Get it.)

Then I discovered a trick. If you get an ASAT leafy camo suit and put your orange suit on first then wear the ASAT suit on top, a hunter can easily see you from a hundred plus yards away...easily. That suit is mostly perforated with hanging shag so the orange is very transparent. But lo and behold I had deer walking past me at 10 to 20 yards on the ground oblivious to my presence, just like they do when I'm only wearing the ASAT! I actually shot my best 2 bucks with this outfit. If you're worried about safety and effectiveness, this works so well I started doing it on public land EVEN WHEN IT'S NOT REQUIRED. There's a lot of inexperienced hunters hitting Ky public land with crossbows. It's a concern to me. Never had a deer at close quarters spook, but hunters say they saw me way far away.

I'm sharing this information for any fellow bowhunters that have had a scare or are concerned, it works!! Good luck and stay safe.

05-Jan-22
I would be willing to move all units into a draw for NR, for higher quality hunts. I told them on my survey this year I would hunt less often for a better hunt

You can’t legislate away stupidity, you could put alarms and orange reflective strips on all hunters. And someone would either shoot them selves or someone else.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
I've always felt elk should go to all draw, state-wide, with a reasonable NR percentage cap. Then make up the difference in revenue thru higher resident tag fees. I'd gladly pay 3 times as much for a resident elk tag, or more, for a better quality hunt with less crowding. I'd bet that most serious CO resident elk hunters would, as well.

Matt

05-Jan-22
So to achieve "better quality hunt" of the current 54,000 elk bow hunters, (49% nonresidents), how many of the total elk hunters need to be reduced, for a better quality hunt?. When I stated to hunt Colorado elk in 1989, there were 25,000 elk bow hunters and some thought there was crowding when.

I don't know how I do it but I have killed 4 bulls and one cow elk during the past 7 years on public land in Colorado. "Crowding"? I just hunt away from the crowds, sort of what the pressured elk do.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
Paul,

You are an exception to the rule. How many of those 7 years have you hunted the same secret honey hole by yourself?

Here's some quick math using your numbers. If CO reduced the number of NR elk bow hunters by 50%, that would be roughly 13,000 fewer bow hunters in the woods. To make up that revenue, they'd have to raise the resident tag fee by roughly $225. That would put resident tags at $285. Considering NR pay $700 for a tag, I don't think $285 would be unreasonable. I'd pay that for roughly 25% fewer hunters to compete with. Now apply that same concept thru-out all seasons, and that would drastically reduce the pressure on the herds, and improve the quality of hunts for all who drew tags.

Now, I realize a lot of residents would balk at that idea because they are used to paying $60 for a tag, which is ridiculously low, IMO. But, I bet if given the choice between paying an extra $225 for a tag, or not hunting elk at all, most would find a way to afford it.

Matt

From: Bou'bound
05-Jan-22
Td whip

What is the curriculum to be for a second class for muzzleloader hunters that they wouldn’t learn in the first class

If they are not teaching people not to shoot each other in the first class I’m not sure a 201 level course is going to help all that much

From: Jethro
05-Jan-22
Paul, yes sir, I know CBA is on it. You guys were probably anticipating this since the hunter shooting occurred. My post was a reply to an earlier post questioning why CBA is focused on this. My answer was because it is on the agenda right now.

From: txhunter58
05-Jan-22
I voted for option three.

I think Grey Ghosts proposal is a good one. As a nonres, I would be ok with every other year if there was less crowding.

I don’t see why they don’t give the Muzzy hunters the safety course. What good would it do to give it to the ones being shot???

I also don’t see why there isn’t an option to use blaze orange camo???

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
Matt your numbers still leave about 3 million short fall at least using Paul's number and that's just archery elk. Unfortunately not all hunters are as high of roller as you. I agree that out of state hunters need to be reduced in CO. I also think another issue facing hunting that just as big of a problem, which has historically been a more blue collar endeavor is hunting is more and more becoming a pay to play or hunt over crowded public land. You should be able to hunt your home state and it not be a financial burden. IMO $285 for a elk tag to hunt your home state becomes that. Especially if you are guy with a couple teenagers you want to take hunting. Those tags and some gas and your spending a grand to go hunt for a few days. This coming from a guy that paying $60 or $285 would make a huge difference to and would like the less crowded elk woods.

It is not to much to ask for the CPW to tighten their belt a little or find other ways to off set the cost. What would a modest increase across the board do? Park passes, fishing license, $10 for a walk in access/SWA pass. Why does their budget have to come from over crowding the elk season and not show a preference to those that live in CO like every other western state?

05-Jan-22
CPW has a really big budget compared to other western states with similar area, species, & human population.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
Glunt I agree and they could raise tag prices by 50% next sell just as many tags it would not be long before that would not be enough.

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
My math

13230 x 700 = 9,261,000

54,000 total hunters x 51% are Res hunter = 27,540 Res hunters

27540 X 225 = 6,196,500

That roughly 3 million or 3,064,500

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
I see you erased your post Matt. But the above was to the math you posted then deleted...

From: cnelk
05-Jan-22
I would pay double to have less crowding

05-Jan-22
The thing is, we already have 0-1 point limited units for elk in good habitat. Lots of people don't utilize them because you lose all your points and usually the experience isn't much different than OTC. I expect if we go 100% limited we get a ton of units like that but lose the flexibility of OTC tags. Basically little to no improvement and just more restriction and hassle.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
You are correct John. Thanks for the math check.

So, to make up the revenue shortfall for a 50% reduction of NR tags, residents would have to pay $336 more for a tag, or $396 total. Is that all that bad considering NR pay $700?

Obviously my proposal is at the outer extremes of what would ever be considered, but I don't think it's outrageous, The numbers could be massaged either way. My point is, resident public land hunters could pay a lot more for a better hunting experience without breaking the bank. Heck, most of them don't hesitate to spend $300 on the latest and greatest hunting clothes, why should they balk at the same amount for a tag?

Matt

From: txhunter58
05-Jan-22
I doubt anyone can give an example where government ever tightened its belt. In political terms a DECREASE in the budget is a decrease in the amount of increase.

The first step in the process should absolutely be making all elk tags draw only. No other way our goals of less Crowding can be achieved

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
Matt maybe you were born with a silver spoon maybe you weren't I don't know and it does really matter other than when your starting out have a young family $225-$396 tends to be a lot more money than it can be in later life. I think the majority of hunter are not who you speak of. I think if you hang out enough of bowsite where hunting is more than something you start thinking about when it starts getting to be fall but not your number 1 passion or our friends that tend to be in a similar socioeconomic group not everyone is going out in Sitka with the newest bow or has a lot of disposable income. I'd guess far from a majority. You always are very good at seeing things from your seat at the table but not necessarily others. I think that is the case here. But no doubt if you price enough people out the elk woods will be a lot less crowded.

05-Jan-22
"CPW has a really big budget compared to other western states with similar area, species, & human population."

^this^

Doesn't matter if it's a part of government that you like or don't like, the more money you give them, the more they need and the more they waste.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
I couldn't agree more, David. Unlimited OTC tags is an antiquated and counterproductive policy to wildlife conservation.

Matt

05-Jan-22
The reason residents would balk at $400 for an elk tag is because it's their elk. They paid $50K for their truck and $400 for their Stone Glacier pack because they had to buy it from someone else. And of course because its way outside the budget for a lot of normal families.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
John,

I'd rather pay $300 for a quality public land hunt, then have to pay $6000 for the same experience on private land, because there is no other option. You're preaching to the choir when you talk about the costs of hunting to me.

Matt

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
First off your not going to have the same experience in most cases on a public land hunt unless it is a high draw unit, you know of one of those few secret honey holes, or you have the ability to go where know one else goes. At least not consistently. That is unless you make elk tags very very limited and very few wants it to get to where you can only hunt your home state every five to ten years. So nothing you said is option much less the only option.

The only real options are keep it as crowded as it is now, limit the NR hunter just like every other state does, go all draw and probably not have the chance to hunt our home state every season. A modest price increase is one thing but not a 6 or 7 times increase. Most likely best case is we can get a little of each.

Low draw hunts are never going to be the same quality hunt as a private ranch hunt at least the decent ones - especially in CO. That is ok but to think they could improve to what they were 20 years ago that is realistic. Even if that means not getting to hunt every year.

From: Cazador
05-Jan-22
To me it seems like alot of the guys bitching about hunting OTC didn't even hunt this year. Go back to Sept and see who was all over this site vs in the woods?

Face it, the division loves their money and will consume any amount that is given to them. No reason why the DOW couldn't follow WY's system. You could charge 1200 bucks for NR tags and still sell out, no question. As a R, I don't want to sit the bench, and there is no need when NR's will pay the differential.

One addition........ Status quo on the orange, or get them out completely were my comments.

From: Danbow
05-Jan-22
CPW doesn't care about overcrowding in the archery season. Success rates are low and it's extra easy money. They base their management on 4 rifle seasons with even more overcrowding. Hell if they really cared they would mandatory survey everyone that bought a license . Their harvest numbers are a joke! Survey one in four if your lucky. Had more crowding in a 3 point unit than my otc unit. Last survey 2 years ago they did what wanted. Smoke and mirrors! But I'll be back for my 39th year and confer up my 800.00 with app fees and small game license.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
"The only real options are keep it as crowded as it is now, limit the NR hunter just like every other state does, go all draw and probably not have the chance to hunt our home state every season."

I'm glad we agree that unlimited OTC is stupid.

Matt

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
I didn't say that. It can work if they didn't make a substantial number of OTC unit draw (could that change back??? doubtful but possible), and cut the NR by half. That would be my preference as I like to get to elk hunt each year and the flexibility of not being stuck to one unit.

I will say from those I talked to about the unit that have recently changed to draw they are as crowd if not more so OTC unit because of number of tags put out and they don't have choice to pack up and move to another unit.

From: Danbow
05-Jan-22
Your CPW! Did you really think they would cut off their nose to spite their face. $$$$

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
The point is the only way you make elk hunting in CO less crowded is to keep some of the 54,000 bowhunters home. That can be to limit the NR that are about half the hunter. You can limit both. You can go all draw with less tags than are being sold currently for everyone or only non residents. You could keep OTC but put a cap on them. You could price out those that either have the least funds or it is not a priority to spend more than they are spending now for tags. But bottom line it either keeps getting more crowded or some folks stay home. The question is who stays home and how do you cause them to stay home.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
I'm feeling you, John, and liking it. But, I think you are delaying the inevitable. All OTC units need to go to a controled LIMITED DRAW.

Matt .

From: Tdwhip
05-Jan-22
Bou'bound. I do agree with your statement but even if it only saves one life isn't it worth it LOL.

From: JohnMC
05-Jan-22
Matt the real answer is the CPW needs more guys like you that have the answer to everything! We all would be killing 400'' bulls every year. ;)

From: Danbow
05-Jan-22
The only thing that will change with all draw is more revenue for the CPW. Everyone will need a qualifying license! Hope you get your Pink Pony!

From: Cazador
05-Jan-22
Fixed….

“I'm glad we agree that unlimited OTC for NR’s is stupid.”

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
John, what the CPW needs is more hunters, like you, who get it. Clinging to stupid conservation policies is dumb.

Matt

From: Danbow
05-Jan-22
Yes it's stupid!! Should be like New Mexico lottery no preference points. Maybe you get to hunt every 5, 10, or 20 years. 10 percent to NR and 4 percent of that is to the guides.

From: sticksender
05-Jan-22
1. survey done

2. Grey Ghost’s flawed venture into italics terminated ; -)

From: Jaquomo
05-Jan-22
How do you get them to stay home? In Natural Resource Management the willingness-to-pay scale was drilled as a primary tool to limit participation. Still works today, but people find a way to fund whatever they want no matter what it costs. The money press had money flying out like bats out of a cave. You could double prices for residents and NRs in CO and I bet the decrease is barely a tick.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
You’re good, Greg. :-).

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
05-Jan-22
What’s your solution, Lou? Honestly.

Matt

From: Danbow
05-Jan-22
Matt the solution is tell me where you hunt and i promise! i will avoid it like the plague. Cause it sounds like it's way overcrowded .

05-Jan-22
The problem finding a solution is the bigger fish in the equation aren't really seeing the same problem.

CPW doesn't have a great track record of prioritizing making bowhunting better the last few decades.

From: Grasshopper
05-Jan-22
We're you guys not paying attention when the last fee increase happened? After cpi index, the legislature absolutely has no interest in changing cpw fees again. If there is one group that seems to dislike cpw more then hunters, it's the legislature.

Cpw made major Bank with the fee increase. I listened to the last sag meeting, never heard anyone state changes need to be "revenue nuetral". They haven't delivered on much of the promises for the last fee increase.

Here is the solution. Pick a dam maximum number of otc nonresidents, and that's it.

I'd really like to hear one valid reason why resident Archers should have any limits in otc units, because there ain't one.

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-22
Steve, agree. They told us changes had to be revenue neutral at a budget presentation at the FtC Sportsman's Roundtable.

Matt, I could propose some cold-blooded solutions, like testing the willingness to pay threshold for NRs by raising prices over a five year period until the threshold of acceptable NRs vs. revenue is met. But that would piss a lot of people off, and nobody can agree on the "acceptable" number. The WY model would be a good place to start, except limit by market value vs. pp draw limitation. OTC in general units for residents, NRs pay a bunch and still need pps.

In the interest of woke fairness a percentage of NR OTC licenses could be available through a random draw at a lower price, sorta like WY reduced price cow-calf tags.

The budget process is a big part of the reason why I left Game, Fish, and Parks. One thing is for sure - once they have x amount of revenue, they aren't going to tighten their belts.

06-Jan-22
I think you could use a combination of tactics 1. Raise resident fees, first double elk only to $120 or $150. Leave all underutilized tags the same price. 2. Turn all NR Elk into draw only. Raise non-residence fees, they would only be hunting every 2-4 years so the increase wouldn’t hurt.

Ranch’s where Elk congregate from pressure would need to allow more resident hunters access to not be put into a different draw pool for landowner tags. They don’t have to allow access to residents. but they don’t get the same odds of drawing landowner tags as ranches that allow residents to hunt.

We just need to face up to the fact. Too many people want to chase elk at the same time. The problem I see with my ideas are how do you stop people from flooding the hills with rifle Bear hunting, or grouse hunting since they can not elk hunt

Then you would have to have a lottery system for an access permit to limit access for any reason and people probably wouldn’t stand for that

From: cnelk
06-Jan-22
Keep hammering the CPW to make season(s) during the early October 'quiet time' - even in a limited capacity if necessary. September is only so many days and needs some relief

From: trublucolo
06-Jan-22
No reasonable solutions will ever come about when CPWs biggest concern is creating more revenue to support all the suburban parks and open spaces. Fishers Peak State Park? Seriously?

From: DanaC
06-Jan-22
" In the unit I hunted while I was hunting there was a rifle deer, rifle bear, muzzleloader bear, muzzleloader deer, and muzzleloader elk seasons running concurrent with my archery elk hunt. "

Yeah, I'd be nervous about bow-hunting under those circumstances. Would definitely wear orange while moving, and 'flag' my location while on stand.

In this state you *can* bow-hunt during gun seasons but you must abide by orange requirements. On state WMA's where pheasants are stocked you must wear an orange hat during bird season.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-22
"Here is the solution. Pick a dam maximum number of otc nonresidents, and that's it."

I think that would be a great start, but I still think OTC needs to go away. They could set the draw limits to closely match the number of hunters currently using each unit. They could also allow some tags to be good for multiple units, like they do for eastern plains deer tags.

Matt

From: JohnMC
06-Jan-22
They could set the draw limits to closely match the number of hunters currently using each unit.

That makes a lot of since Matt. Let go all draw but leave the number of hunters in each unit the same. Or in other words let have a complete new process to get the same results we currently have. I bet the CPW would love that! Especially if they can charge an application fee!

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
Problem is John they don't know how many hunters in current otc due to lack of survey. Fix that system. 100 percent survey no big deal it's done online. Then talk about limits instead of shooting from hip.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-22
John,

Sorry, if I wasn't clear. The draw limits could be based on resident usage plus a limited NR cap. Therefore, most residents would still be able to draw their favorite units, and enjoy a less crowded hunt due to the NR cap.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-22
Trublu, Parks and Wildlife are prohibited from comingling funds. Revenue from hunting and fishing licenses stays in the Wildlife budget.

From: cnelk
06-Jan-22
The best way to make multiple units go to draw would be to issue licenses for the entire DAU.

Better for herd management, better for hunter management....

So friggin easy

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
280000 Elk in Colorado.54000 bowhunters 10% Harvest rate across the state maybe give or take. 5400 elk harvested do you really think that is herd management. If it wasn't for the money they wouldn't have and archery season. They would leave september for hikers, bikers, backpackers, wolfies etc. JMO

06-Jan-22
A total draw system would not be popular with hunters who have gained a lot of preference points over the years to be able to hunt a prime area. I would expect a hunter with 4,6,8, 10, 15, or more PP will not want to cash them in just so they can hunt that first draw year; so they do not hunt for a few years or more. If they do cast them in, they are back to zero. ANd if they do cash them in, I would expect the PP creep to kick in more during he first few years.

Whatever system might be developed, vs, the one we have, there will always me some that will cry about over crowding even if the hunter numbers are cut in half.

From: trublucolo
06-Jan-22
Thanks Jaquomo. I wonder what funds they are using to upgrade all the highway / road access to up in there? General Fund, fed?. Exit 11 by the Walmart down there is getting entirely revamped, and a real access road is going to be needed. Kind of curious what the real draw will be other than a really nice view of Trinidad Lake and the Culebras to the west. Heads up to dog owners visiting it, almost as many buzz snakes as there are rocks up there.

Apologies for sidetracking the thread guys.

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-22
Trublu, it seems counterintuitive to not commingle funds, but after seeing the Wildlife budget presentation, any comingling would be a massive conspiracy that would certainly be exposed by at least one disgruntled whistleblower.

From: trublucolo
06-Jan-22
I hear you. Our agency (CDOC) is managed by budget nazis too, which is a blessing when you think about how many people in government think other peoples money is their money- kind of like my wife’s version of “ what’s her money is her money, and my money is hers too”. Ever since CPW merged into what it is today, it has in my opinion gotten worse. I did not realize anyone in Denver had the self restraint to not tap hunting revenue for pet rock expenditures. Is fishing revenue in the same locked drawer or does it get tapped for State Park spending do you know? Even though fishing and a lot of our state parks are more closely interwoven.

From: JohnMC
06-Jan-22
It seems like the issue with comingling funds and that might not be the right term, but it not so much that funds from hunting tags are going to highways or something else not under the CPW umbrella but more to everything else under the CPW umbrella. That was why many were so against the DOW and Parks merging a few years ago. It seems like hunters are the welfare for everything else the CPW is responsible for and that was the purpose of the merger. Now they have no choice but to sell as many NR tags as possible to create a revenue stream.

From: DanaC
06-Jan-22
States have to be very careful about keeping their license monies separate, or else they risk losing Pittman-Robertson funding.

From: trublucolo
06-Jan-22
Just to be clear, I was never under any impression that CPW funding was going to highway or roads- I was more or less questioning (wrongly apparently) the State Park itself being funded by CPW revenue generated by license fees.

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22
You could certainly limit NRs by raising the price. I just don’t agree with “we want less crowding so we are going to cut NRs numbers and make them pay for it.” Just because you see it as the only way to get what you want, that doesn’t make it right.

I can afford any price they determine, but at $900-1000, bowhunting in Colorado is just not worth it, unless you hunt private land. If it comes to that, I will help organize and rally an all out boycott. That is the only vote we have. If we can get enough support for at least 1 year to keep 80-90% of NRs home, our voice would be heard. It would certainly accomplish what residents want, less crowding, but CPW would have to blink as well as decreased business to local communities pitching a fit. Yeah yeah, I know all the counter arguments, but in their hearts, most residents would know it’s wrong. I will say it again: cut our numbers in half if you want, but not by pricing the common man out of it.

From: JohnMC
06-Jan-22
txhunter not picking on you but as a NR that sounds like hunts here often do you think it wrong for CO to limit NR like all other western state do? Second do you not think you could have better hunts if you could only hunt CO every few years but instead get points in different states and rotate through them every few years? I assume you agree there are problems or you would feel like 900-1000 is worth it.

Just to be clear I don't hate NR hunters it has just gotten to be to much when they are half the hunters in the woods.

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22
The last sentence of my last post answers your question. I would support cutting NR numbers, but by making it all draw and limiting our numbers, not by raising the price to levels where 50% of us don’t show up.

And no, I don’t think the hunting would improve enough to justify that price. With less pressure, it would be better in that regard, but prob the same number of elk would be killed and the bull quality would not rise enough to justify the price. Success rates would increase some but would still be below 20% statewide.

Frankly in the long run, I would probably just switch to cow only hunts, as I have killed plenty of bulls. But that prob wouldn’t satisfy most hunters

One other thing, I own a cabin in SW Colorado. I currently pay property taxes and spend a lot of money in Colorado each year in the summer and fall. And next year when I retire, we plan on spending up to half a year up there each year. So I will be paying my dues, but won’t ever become a resident due to your tax structure and being more blue all the time

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-22
David,

It's nice to see a NR, who is familiar with CO hunting, acknowledge that there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Colorado has been every NR elk hunter's "Plan B", if they didn't draw in their "A" area, for far too long. It's gotten out of control.

I had to hunt a new area last year because my usual spots were closed due to fires. I scouted it once before the season, and found some sign, so I gave it a shot. It turned out to be a complete sh!t show. Out of 30-40 camps that I drove by as I was leaving, only a handful had vehicles sporting CO plates.

Matt

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
Going to all draw won't help the hunting i agree. Just leaves more for the rifle hunters too shoot at 500 yards. You all need to just take a page out of Paul's book and just become better hunters or take up the rifle and experience real crowds! Sour grapes on here evertime this time of year!

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
Going to all draw won't help the hunting i agree. Just leaves more for the rifle hunters too shoot at 500 yards. You all need to just take a page out of Paul's book and just become better hunters or take up the rifle and experience real crowds! Sour grapes on here evertime this time of year!

From: cnelk
06-Jan-22
This thread may be about orange and archery hunting, but the bigger picture is about the popularity of elk hunting as a whole in Colorado.

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22
My area in SW Colorado has a long way to go to be good again. The CPW has acknowledged that they are building the herd but they need to maintain revenue so they are happy with a 13 bulls to 100 cows. Bulls are scarce and cow tags are rare for the foreseeable future.

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-22
It was almost 2 weeks into the season when I finally got fed up with the crowding and left. On my way out, I ran into the local game warden and we had nice long chat. He had checked in on the nearly every camp in the area by that time, and none of them had filled any tags. What I don't understand is, what keeps these NRs coming back? Is it just our beautiful scenery, pleasant September weather, and unusually friendly residents? ;-)

Matt

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
As for the Blaze orange move the ML season out of September to the 1st five days of October. The average length of a guided hunt.

From: cnelk
06-Jan-22
^^^ Bingo. Keep thumping that drum!

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-22
Danbow, great idea. Lots of good ideas suggested by people who have no clue about the hunting political and financial dynamics in this state. We bowhunters have been asking for that since, oh, about 1971 when I first started bowhunting big game in CO. Not going to happen. The choice given to us is for bowhunters to give up 9 days of our season for MLs to carve out, or keep status quo and share our time with MLs and rifle hunting for all sorts of species in September.

Archers are the bastard stepchildren of hunters in CO. As one official in DOW told me, we bowhunters are a huge pain in the ass, trespass in our camo, don't generate much revenue, and spook the elk down onto private land where rifle hunters can't get to them. He's not far off..

From: Bowaddict
06-Jan-22
^have wondered the same thing Matt. The hay day of elk hunting is long gone in Colorado, even though I have been very successful the last 10 years the numbers aren’t there! And the outrageous numbers of tags the cpw needs to sell to fund the bloated department guarantees they stay that way. I talked to several guys from out of state 2 seasons ago in otc that we’re thrilled they saw a couple elk and heard bugles in a weeks time!? And I mean they saw less than 5 all in same morning. That’s what I miss the most now, the interaction with the elk consistently. The crowds just make it that much more frustrating. I have spots to get away, but the elk still feel the pressure from guys walking in in the dark to the obsessive calling. With all that, you better be ready when you get that chance! Unfortunately it’s gotten way too far out of control for an easy answer, and no govt agency is gonna cut their budget without a fight!

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-22
I especially liked the comment, from a Wisconsin guy, telling us CO resident hunters to "just become better hunters or take up the rifle". That made me laugh.

Matt

06-Jan-22
To anyone who can answer the question, has the Colorado Muzzleloader Association been lobbying for any changes?

I’m curious as to the relationship the Colorado Muzzleloader Association has with CPW, and how influential their representatives are.

I’m also curious as to if there is any cooperation between the CBA and the Muzzleloader Association. While I’d like to see muzzleloader season moved out of September, I’m sure the MLA is opposed to that, but wonder if they have any engagement with the CBA?

06-Jan-22
Tx hunter - While the issue of limiting archery and leaving rifle OTC in the SW was in process, it appeared that most of the SW units were at herd objective or slightly above/below. I don't know what unit you are in but you might check that out because most of them likely won't be getting a big effort to increase elk populations.

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
Matt what made a Wisconsin laugh is when a Colorado resident looses his spot to fire and only scouts one time! Really dedicated BOWHUNTER. Your probably one of the nubs that sets up a camper in July and proclaims his spot on National Forest federal Land that by the way I own as much as you or anyone on here. Laugh all you want obviously it's all about me me me.

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
By the way i made (2) 1200 mi trips one way and hu nted 3 units and im not whining. You sir make me laugh!

From: KsRancher
06-Jan-22
Question for someone that knows? When is this years elk muzzy season? Or is still up in the air? My dad was going to apply for a muzzy elk and my brother was going to apply for a muzzy mule deer tag. The main reason for wanting to muzzy hunting is the time frame better fits their work schedule. If it moves to first of Oct then they probably won't try for muzzy season

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-22
The government owns "National Forest federal land". It is held in the public trust. The general public is only permitted to use whatever portions bureaucrats allow access to.

So actually, neither you, nor anyone else on here owns any of it. The "Public Land Owner" tshirts are cute, but dishonest.

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22
My cabin is in unit 71. Will have to wait and see what happens this year, but they have really been stingy with cow and either sex tags for the last 4 years.

Though cow bow tags could be had for 0 points, It took 2 points for a Muzzy cow tag but bull could be drawn with 0. First rifle bulls went for 0 points and cows took 3 points. The bull to cow ratio is dismal!! I don’t see any plan on the horizon to help that

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22
KS: not 100% sure, but Muzzy season should still be sept 10-18 this year. Can’t see them changing this falls season drastically.

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
Not to argue Lou but I vote and am a citizen of this land and goverment. So yes i technically don't own it but neither due the people that abuse the 14 day rule. I no what everyone will say there understaffed but they sure don't mind checking licenses. And no one hear has answered as to why they don't survey all license d hunters at the end of the year for more accurate numbers.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-22
"By the way i made (2) 1200 mi trips one way and hu nted 3 units and im not whining. You sir make me laugh!"

Thank you for your contributions to Colorado's economy. Did you fill any tags? BTW, I scouted numerous areas. The area I settled on showed the most promise pre-season, until the convoy of NR vehicles showed up.

Look, as a native of Colorado, and life long hunter, I feel entitled to be a bit selfish about hunting here. Anything I can do to help preserve the quality of hunting for the residents in my state, I'm going to do. The first step in that goal is putting a reasonable cap on NR hunters thru out all seasons, IMO

Now, back to the topic. Who do guys think makes the best blaze orange bow hunting clothes? I'm kinda picky about noisy hunting garb. Would a blaze orange day pack qualify for the minimum square inches of orange? What if I painted my bow blaze orange, does that count? Thanks for any insights. ;-)

Matt

06-Jan-22
The Early Season archery and the ML elk and deer season will stay the same until the next Big Game 5 year season structure in a few years. Now, the hunter orange issue can be enacted next year if approved.

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
I'm glad you care about your fellow residents Matt as you should. This year have a plan A. B. C . Eating some tender cow meat from your great state thanks for asking. Polar Fleece orange if you must. I personally wear a orange bandana and bright orange or hi viz yellow fetching during muzzy. Don't want to get shot by any ????

From: cnelk
06-Jan-22
Currently, camo blaze orange is illegal in Colorado.

I’m curious if archers will be required to wear orange if camo orange will be legal for archers.

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22
https://www.hiddensuccesstactical.com/instructionals.html

Wonder if this would be legal

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22
Cnelk. I agree that is the best answer; but that is not one of the 4 options being considered.

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
Doubt they'll change that. Should cut down on the overcrowding for that 9 days. Just wash your orange and let it sit out in the sun and fade should take glow out of it.

06-Jan-22
“I’m curious if archers will be required to wear orange if camo orange will be legal for archers”

If CPW requires orange in archery season, I wonder what percentage of archery hunters will wear it.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-22
Congrats on your cow, Danbow. Glad my state could provide you some sustenance. Personally, I only killed bulls, because I think that's the best way to conserve a limited state resource, but that's just my policy as a selfish resident.

Polar fleece isn't an option. It's a magnet for burrs, seeds, pine needles, weeds, etc.. in my experience. ;-)

Matt

06-Jan-22
TX

Current population in your DAU is 19,100. Objective is 21,000 -24,000.

From: Bou'bound
06-Jan-22
Td whip

What is the curriculum to be for a second class for muzzleloader hunters that they wouldn’t learn in the first class

If they are not teaching people not to shoot each other in the first class I’m not sure a 201 level course is going to help all that much

From: Danbow
06-Jan-22
Camo orange is still orange just broken up pattern. Think how well elk can pickup movement with camo. Leave it as is. If people don't want to be in the woods with firearms don't go. Just more big brother trying to fix stupid. Have hunters sign document that if they shoot some one they will be charged with murder since safety is no accident. And then prosecute to the fullest no if ands or buts. Maybe then they will think about pulling the trigger.

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-22
If hunters don't want to bowhunt when there are firearms, they would need to hunt a different state. There are multiple rifle seasons the entire month of September in CO. Agree that it should be our choice whether to wear orange.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-22
Bou,

IMO, the CBA's blaze orange pole is a joke. Their last question about bow hunters completing an online certification instead of wearing orange was the funniest. I don't think it was a bow hunter who shot and killed another hunter last year that raised this topic to the forefront. It's just another example of how our wildlife policy makers don't give a rat's ass about bow hunters. And the CBA seems to be catering to that attitude.

Matt

06-Jan-22
I recall the first time we saw a rifle hunter during archery. We actually shadowed him and took pictures because obviously he was poaching. It was odd that he was wearing orange if he was knowingly poaching? We decided to talk to him. He was totally legal, we were ignorant (and blown away) of the fact that they issued early rifle cow tags starting that year during archery season.

From: Jims
06-Jan-22
If everyone was orange-green colorblind it wouldn't be an issue? I actually can see pink but orange blends in! With that said, I am always 100% sure of what I'm shooting prior to pulling the trigger during rifle season. Obviously accidents happen but I'm super confident that I will never shoot another hunter whether they wear orange or pink.

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22
Danbow: elk and deer can’t see orange. It is just light grey to them. So camo orange would be just as effective as any other camo pattern. Really! All any camo pattern does is break up your outline. Movement would not be any easier for an elk to see with blaze camo vs regular camo

I have had deer and elk walk by me at 10 yards with a solid blaze orange vest on and never see me. Sure, it I had moved, it would be easier for them to see me, because I had a solid block of color on, not camo

Thats why guys like me in the old days always wore red plaid shirts as our camo, and I still do sometimes today. Very effective too. Pretty sure Chuck Adams used plaid hunting shirts effectively early in his career

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22

txhunter58's embedded Photo
txhunter58's embedded Photo
txhunter58's embedded Photo
txhunter58's embedded Photo

From: Jaquomo
06-Jan-22
I've had elk at point blank distance from hunters I was guiding or helping, and me too. Once I was wearing orange, holding two horses wearing orange sheets, and called a 6x bull right on top of my wife sitting in front of a stump. He stood and stared at me for a long time, never noticed her, then walked away. She had a cow tag....

06-Jan-22
Matt, the online test would be for ML rifle hunter, prior to getting their license, not bow hunters taking an on line test.

06-Jan-22
Would orange or camo orange change success rates noticeably? No. Cool thing is, I already have the option to wear either if I'm concerned about my safety. No new regulation required.

From: txhunter58
06-Jan-22

txhunter58's embedded Photo
txhunter58's embedded Photo
Paul, that would make the most sense, but that is not how it’s worded in the poll

From: Danbow
07-Jan-22
txhunter58 i get deer are color blind and im old enough that i wore red l Plaid and i wear orange camo in wi for deer hunting it's legal and have had deer super close but also had deer pick me off with orange camo especially at low light. Deer here pick off pop up blinds also, where as Turkeys that see color don't seem to care . Obviously we all have had are own experiences. So it must matter or this thread would not have lasted this long.

07-Jan-22
Matt, yep, there it is in black and white. I stand corrected. Paul I will be attending the CBA BOD meeting tonight and will bring that up. Thanks for the catch.

From: Jaquomo
07-Jan-22
The idea is that we all have the choice to wear orange. But nobody wants the government forcing us to wear orange, especially since it is simply a woke snowflake solution in search of a problem.

From: Bowfreak
07-Jan-22
Coming from the east I thought it was bizarre that when a gun season was going on I didn't have to wear orange as a bowhunter. I assumed it was not a mandatory thing because there is so much ground and so few of hunters compared to east of the Mississippi, but I have hunted an many states for deer and never ran into the number of people I saw hunting Colorado.

From: trublucolo
07-Jan-22
Overcrowding in Colorado is a myth.

07-Jan-22
I almost panicked at having to Wear orange. Then I looked, and Sitka makes an orange vest so I’m back in my safe space.

From: txhunter58
07-Jan-22
These would be my 3 options, in the order I like them:

1). Status quo, but regs say solid blaze or blaze camo is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED (gets CPW off the hook)

2). Move muzzleloader season to right after bow

3) blaze camo required.

Powers that be sound like they are going to make a change, so blaze camo seems like the best option if they insist on requiring orange.

From: txhunter58
07-Jan-22
Danbow. Your experiences have been different from mine but yours are just as valid. But if it’s a choice between solid or camo orange….

I am in full agreement about camo pop-ups. Deer notice them immediately. But turkeys don’t for some reason.

From: Jethro
07-Jan-22
I have never felt unsafe or that I needed orange while elk hunting CO and it always has been during some of the muzzy overlap. If they are going to decide that orange is required, wouldn't just a hat be enough?

Ironically, 3 years ago PA eliminated their archery orange requirements during the week of overlap but I still where an orange hat whenever I'm moving. We have an 8 day muzzy and 3 day Jr/Sr rifle overlap.

From: Jaquomo
07-Jan-22
Colorado September archery season is 29 days, and there are rifle seasons going on the entire month while we are in the field. ML is only 9 days of that season.

From: yooper89
07-Jan-22
Paul and Tx, From Henry Ferguson regarding the online safety cert- it would be required for everyone that hunts the overlapping seasons. Muzzy and archery.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-22
I don’t know about you guys, but I’m usually aware of a rifle hunter in orange long before he is of me. Usually he’s unaware that I’m there and the encounter ends in a non-event.

Last year’s fatal hunting accident involved a NR muzzleloader killing a bow hunter who I can only guess was new to the game.

Accidents happen that don’t need law changes to prevent them from happening.again.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-22

  • Sitka Gear