onX Maps
Watch this. Trying to kick hunters off
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
ryanrc 09-Jan-22
DanaC 09-Jan-22
Scrappy 09-Jan-22
kentuckbowhnter 09-Jan-22
KSflatlander 09-Jan-22
hawkeye in PA 09-Jan-22
Bandicooter 09-Jan-22
WapitiBob 09-Jan-22
HDE 09-Jan-22
txhunter58 09-Jan-22
JL 09-Jan-22
groundhunter50 09-Jan-22
midwest 09-Jan-22
AZ8 10-Jan-22
pav 10-Jan-22
timex 10-Jan-22
smarba 10-Jan-22
badlander 10-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 10-Jan-22
midwest 10-Jan-22
Dpat 10-Jan-22
Beav 10-Jan-22
HDE 10-Jan-22
smarba 10-Jan-22
HDE 10-Jan-22
midwest 10-Jan-22
smarba 10-Jan-22
midwest 10-Jan-22
Ucsdryder 10-Jan-22
HDE 10-Jan-22
Saphead 10-Jan-22
Native Okie 10-Jan-22
ryanrc 10-Jan-22
Quinn @work 11-Jan-22
2Wild Bill 11-Jan-22
Darrell 15-Jan-22
WapitiBob 15-Jan-22
Red Sparky 15-Jan-22
Red Sparky 15-Jan-22
thedude 16-Jan-22
APauls 16-Jan-22
LINK 16-Jan-22
From: ryanrc
09-Jan-22

ryanrc's Link
So I just watched this and thought I would share. The guy admitted he puts up no trespassing signs on public Land. Can't he be charged for that?

From: DanaC
09-Jan-22
Does NM have hunter harrassment laws in place?

From: Scrappy
09-Jan-22
OUTFITTERS ARE SCUM OF THE EARTH

09-Jan-22
He certainly can be charged. Fraud is against the law, probably a lot of other charges could be brought.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-22
Good video. Some people. I think I would have went back for spite and asked the conservation officer to come with me.

09-Jan-22
People posting property they don't have permission to do so is bigger than one would think.

From: Bandicooter
09-Jan-22
From the New Mexico website: STATE TRUST LANDS UNITIZATION To assure access and create larger, definable hunting areas, hunting and trapping privileges on some state trust lands have been exchanged for the same privileges on private land. These ranches are posted with signs advising that the private land has been unitized. Watch for these signs and contact the landowner if you have any question about the location of the land open to public use.

IF YOU ARE DENIED ACCESS The right of entry to state trust land is assured if access is available by public road (defined in Section 67-2-1, NMSA 1978) or on other established roads on State Trust Land that have not been closed to vehicular traffic. Access is also allowed on foot from roads mentioned above or from adjacent public and private lands that have been lawfully accessed.

If you are denied access to State Trust Land during the appropriate seasons, record complete details including the location, date, time, and names of parties involved, and contact one of the following:

The local NMDGF Conservation Officer or NMDGF’s central law enforcement number at 505-841-9256. NMSLO in Santa Fe at 505-827-5760 or the appropriate local NMSLO Field Office. Submit a Multiple Use Incident Reporting Form to NMSLO (PDF). Submit a Multiple Use Incident Reporting Form to NMSLO (Online).

From: WapitiBob
09-Jan-22
If I was on public, I'd have stayed. Walking away and then complaining on the internet doesn't do much.

From: HDE
09-Jan-22
Anyone hunting NM should download the Carry Maps app. It gives way more info about land in NM than any other hunting map app. It will show if an agricultural lease, a logging lease, or a mineral lease on any land is closed to hunting.

A local game and fish supervisor (Sargent by rank) told me that's what they go by when I had questions about a part of a unit prior to a hunt.

From: txhunter58
09-Jan-22
It sounds like they did their homework and the landowners agent was either lying to them or repeating a lie that the owner told them.

From: JL
09-Jan-22
Read the comments below the vid....some good stuff. This seems to be a common problem where ranchers with grazing leases try to block off public land hunters from accessing that public land. In this case as I understood it, that rancher also does outfitting or has outfitters using the public land lease. The hunter was in the right on this if you listen to the last 30 seconds of the vid. He is supposed to put out another vid with the follow-up.

On the flip side, if I was a rancher leasing state/fed land to legally graze my livestock on, I'd be inclined to get pissed when the camo/orange army comes on the lease and leaves the gates open, cuts the wire, tears up the two-tracks, scares the livestock, shoots the livestock, etc. It's a balancing act for sure....respect and courtesy needs to go both ways.

09-Jan-22
Its a mess, that is for sure, and what a hassle, never had to deal with all of that, as a young man your age, back in the day...... Hard enough to hunt, then alone do filming, good video,,,, I could never do it,,,,,,,

From: midwest
09-Jan-22
I hope there are some heavy fines levied against that outfit. Glad Dan made all that public.

From: AZ8
10-Jan-22
I would have told that guy to call the Game Warden and then sat down under a tree a waited.

From: pav
10-Jan-22
Had a similar issue in Colorado in 2018 while attempting to access public land from a public road. According to onX and my maps, the road was public, but less than a mile from the public land border there was an open gate with no trespassing signs all over it. Just past the gate, a drive split off to the north and I could see a house and vehicles at the end of the drive.

Triple checked everything and being confident the road was indeed public, I drove through the gate and proceeded on the south split. A few hundred yards later, the road dead ends at an old abandoned pioneer cabin. Both onX and the maps indicated the cabin was on public land. Unfortunately, onX confirmed the cabin was the end of the road (couldn't tell that from the maps). I could see the public land border no more than fifty yards away...but no means to get there without crossing private.

I'm sitting in the truck pouring over my maps, trying to figure out my next move when a van pulls up behind me. The driver gets out and it is obvious he's not happy. As he approached the truck, I also notice he's packing. The dude is skinny as a rail without a good tooth in his head...and it feels like I just drove in to a Breaking Bad episode.

He said I was trespassing from the moment I drove through the gate. I attempted to show him the maps and onX, but he just got louder and more belligerent. Since I now knew there was no way for me to access the public land from where I was parked...I did not argue further and left without incident. He never saw the 10mm Glock under the map in my lap, but can say without hesitation...I would have been scared sh*tless without it!

From: timex
10-Jan-22
Had an incident on the Shenandoah River waterfowl hunting many years ago. Public waterway & public boat launch. Completely legal. Got to the ramp & game warden was waiting routine check no problems. A few days later got to ramp another warden & again a routine check & again no problems. A week later another check but a bit more detailed but no problems a few more days later and another check but this time it went way overboard. Guns,shells,license, all boat safety gear, boat search, boat & trailer registration check & then he asked for our drivers license & I objected & inquired as to exactly what was going on. To which he explained that every time I hunted a homeowner on the river complained to which they had to respond & they were tired of it !!!

I spent several hours on the phone the next day trying to get an explanation as to why & whome made the decision to harass me as apposed to educating the complaining homeowner about my rights as a legal hunter. I never got an honest answer. But never got harassed by the game wardens there again.

From: smarba
10-Jan-22
In NM STATE land is not necessarily PUBLIC. It is basically private land owned by the State. The NMDGF has an agreement with the State Land Office to pay for hunting access on State; however, not every single piece of State is included in the agreement. One would have to search the State Land Office website maps to confirm whether the parcel was indeed open to hunting. Typically OnX shows that, but the State Land Office is the final authority. So assuming the parcel indeed was public, call the sheriff, game warden, etc. and go right back there and hunt. But unless one has done their due diligence to confirm that, it's just you arguing with an angry rancher.

I'm certain there are ranchers that go out of their way to make it appear like public lands aren't open for hunting, but I'm equally certain there are ranchers who actually have no clue that some parcels within their outer fence line aren't actually deeded land.

From: badlander
10-Jan-22
Admittedly, I’m a pessimist. I hope there is resolution and the NM throws the book at the Floyd Lee operation.

My bet is however, that’s why Floyd Lee hires private security. Floyd Lee, when challenged will simply deflect and say the security guard was mistaken/misunderstood. They’ll get a slap on the wrist at worst, and in the end they got what they wanted. They chased Dan and his crew and the other crew of 3 off and away from their boundary. Cost of doing business for them.

10-Jan-22
Zero doubt They are absolutely allowed to hunt NM state land.

But, hunting so close to the property line and dealing with a less than cooperative land owner when the animal runs back onto private land is not worth the hassle or stress. I’ve done those kind of hunts when I was young and killing an animal was paramount.

Now it would just be too much stress and the hunt would be tainted.

10-Jan-22
People posting public lands should be convicted.

From: midwest
10-Jan-22
With the stellar reputation of United States Outfitters, I'm sure there was nothing shady going on.

From: Dpat
10-Jan-22
They posted a new video today and in it they record the phone call with the warden and he asked them to send a map pin of where it happened so he could go speak with the people. On the phone he told them they had every right to hunt there.

From: Beav
10-Jan-22
Midwest you are exactly right. Hope they are held accountable!

From: HDE
10-Jan-22
"In NM STATE land is not necessarily PUBLIC. It is basically private land owned by the State. The NMDGF has an agreement with the State Land Office to pay for hunting access on State; however, not every single piece of State is included in the agreement. One would have to search the State Land Office website maps to confirm whether the parcel was indeed open to hunting. Typically OnX shows that, but the State Land Office is the final authority."

This is why you download and use the CarryMap app along with something like OnX. It will show you things that Basemap, OnX, and Gaia won't show you. The option you choose to download would be the NM Big Game Units. It will tell you what is and isn't closed. It will let you know that is a recreation area is closed to shooting or not. No shooting would mean no firearms, but an archery tag would be okay.

From: smarba
10-Jan-22
Agreed HDE. All I was saying is that it's not necessarily true that in NM all State land can be hunted, actually for that matter BLM may have particular requirements too. From what I saw in the video the hunters weren't 100% sure, they just assumed State was same as "public".

From: HDE
10-Jan-22
^^^ yes.

From: midwest
10-Jan-22
They were being told by the rent-a-cop the state land was leased by the Floyd Lee Ranch for hunting.

From: smarba
10-Jan-22
Midwest...the rent-a-cop MIGHT actually be correct: there are Unitized Ranch Agreements in NM in which some private land becomes open to hunting in exchange for other "public" being closed to hunting. These agreements are touted as opening areas to hunting but the reality is often (always?) the rancher gets the better end of the deal. For the particular location in the video I believe it's open for hunting; however, I haven't checked it fully and apparently at the time of the video the hunters hadn't either.

10-Jan-22
HDE, From what I understand if the NMDGF has secured the hunting rights, it’s open to public hunting.

In the case above the hunters were correct and the land owner was not.

But your point is that is not always true. So would does NMDGF allow a rancher to lease hunting rights on state land.

From: midwest
10-Jan-22
smarba, that's interesting and you're correct, the hunters didn't know.

In this case, the guys apologized in advance if they were wrong, then drove to where they had cell service and called the game warden. The game warden had them send him a pin of the area in question and then stated they had every right to hunt there.

On the bright side of this whole debacle, unit 9 New Mexico may be much easier to draw now. ;-)

From: Ucsdryder
10-Jan-22
Colorado is the opposite. Guys can lease both grazing and hunting rights. Frustrating to say the least.

From: HDE
10-Jan-22
Alt Sickness,

It depends on what stipulations the surface owner has for lease rights and what leases are available. I am not aware of any in the state that have hunting lease rights. Most are agricultural, mineral, or logging. Hunting is not an agricultural activity because the output of production doesn't benefit the general population as a whole. For ag, you are supposed to notify the lessee of your activity, not get their permission. If an E&P company (that secures the mineral lease) is going to stake and drill a well on state land that has a grazing lease, the E&P company is supposed to issue a NOS to the lessee, but the lessee cannot impede the activity. If there is a dispute, then all three parties come to some sort of resolution - maybe they can't stake the well where they wanted...

That's why you install the CarryMaps app on your mobile device. The displayed information given in layers about the unit show what the conditions (surface ownership an use) and acceptable activity are for a particular piece of ground.

From: Saphead
10-Jan-22
Tough for me to watch. Had the exact same happen to me in unit 7 Wyoming. Watched ranch hand loosen the bolts on our truck from a mile away. Ride 4 wheeler haul ass thru Blm sage to chase elk away from us. Buzzed us with his plane. He owned 10,000 but couldn't stand for our hunting our little public 640. No one disgusts me more than the type of men in this video.

From: Native Okie
10-Jan-22
Good stuff and interesting.

From: ryanrc
10-Jan-22
I just watched the next episode and was disappointed they didn't show meeting up with the game warden. Then out of curiosity I searched United States outfitters and looked at their reviews. That made me smile. People are submitting review after review of 1 star telling what happened.

From: Quinn @work
11-Jan-22
The flatbrimmer "public land" hunters were wrong in 2 cases. They assumed they were hunting legal public land and the one guy kept saying he's never heard of any state land being not able to hunt on by the public. Come to CO flatbrimmer.

This is exactly why I don't hunt public land elk anymore. The flatbrimmer, Sitka Army, Onx'ers and the over zealous landowner agents. They were both wrong in this video and both suck the enjoyment out of elk hunting.

From: 2Wild Bill
11-Jan-22
It isn't just in the open landscape of the west. Here in Connecticut the state was donated a piece of private land which they opened for bow hunting only. There was a small notch of the land off the public dead end dirt road with two houses. One of the occupants made it his sons purpose in life to race up and down the dirt road on an ATV whenever hunters pulled off the road to hunt and finally created an ATV road around his property line, which his son would travel around at early morning and evening times. It became really bad when they started placing large boulders in the parking turnoffs. Next to the private land was an access road for the overhead power lines with a gate. Of course the gate was posted as private only.

A few years later the dead end road was connected to another road and houses sprouted up on the other side of the power line route. Now the traffic is on a paved road and it seems like the dad does a slow ride around his property from time to time.

From: Darrell
15-Jan-22
I watched both videos with great interest as unit 9 is where my elk addiction started. I grew up in Grants until I was 8 and my father and his buddies hunted deer and elk up there in the late 60's and early 70's. Hate to say it, but some of the two tracks on the North rim were originally blazed by my father as he had no qualms at all driving across sage flats to chase elk or find a better way to a spot. I hunted in in 89-91 as my first bow hunts. Crazy stories that I might start a thread for as the statute of limitations on stupidity has surely passed. (No bowsite and no hunting mentors as my dad hadn't hunted in years and was a gun hunter at heart, so I learned a lot of things the hard way.)

Anyway, Floyd Lee was pulling those same things 32 years ago as I remember getting buzzed by their helicopter as a herd of elk was coming to a tank 1/2 from his fence on the public side. NMG&F needs to use this video along with the testimony of countless public hunters to pull all the ranch's elk tags for the next three years or more. That would also help get some more elk back on the public side. It won't happen, but its what needs to happen.

A couple years ago, I made a scouting run up there in the spring and even applied for the unit as my third choice out of nostalgia. I have one spot that is hard to find that I think would still produce. However, in my scouting, I walked the fence line of the state property in the video. I knew I wasn't legal to actually enter the parcel in March because of not having a valid license. However, If I had drawn the tag and Floyd Lee's security guy would have tried to push me off, I would have called his bluff on calling the game warden as I would have known I was legal. In fact if I happened to have cell coverage, I would have called him myself.

I would still love to hunt one more time on that rim, but I doubt it will ever happen. Doubt I will ever apply for it and if I did, doubt I would draw it. It's a shame because it used to be an incredibly fun hunt. Not the trophy quality of other areas but there was an abundance of elk back in the day. Brings up many, many fond memories!

From: WapitiBob
15-Jan-22
I worked for USO before they were USO, and after they created the company. Stayed in Georges house. Back then he was a stand up guy and wouldn't have stood for this BS.

From: Red Sparky
15-Jan-22
Welcome to NM. I am glad they showed what has been going on for years. The State land they are taking about is State land, held in trust by the state land commissioner, that is used to fund schools. The State Land Commissioner is to get the highest price for the land to fund the schools, hence selling grazing rights, hunting rights, timber rights, surface mineral rights, etc. and you can even purchase a permit to access it year round. It is hunt able if it can be accessed from other public lands or public roadway and you have a valid license.

If it is in a checkerboard you can't corner hop to get to it. This is not in that situation. The rancher thinks just because they have the grazing rights they can control access. That is not the case as NM Dept. of G&F pays the Land office over $1 million per year for hunting access to state lands even though half the state land can't be accessed due to private land and checkerboard.

Here is my personal experience with the Floyd Lee Ranch and unit 9. I drew the Marquez Wildlife Management unit in 2007. This WMA only has 5 tags per hunt and in those days one was to a NR. So all 5 of us introduced ourselves and we all made a plan so we would not be hunting over each other as it is a somewhat small property. It is bordered on 3 sides by the Floyd Lee Ranch. So during the hunt I caught 3 different guides and hunters from the Floyd Lee coming onto the WMA. Kicked them off every time and called G&F. This is their mentality for years and it won't change.

From: Red Sparky
15-Jan-22
One other thing I will add is if they were truly trespassing and entering property they could not have been hunting, G&F would have been called and they would have been charged with trespassing. They would not have been confronted by the "ranch security" at the end of the day.

From: thedude
16-Jan-22
I bet there are 10x as many people hunting that border now just because those dipshits tried to flex.

From: APauls
16-Jan-22
The internet has sure allowed a power shift towards the common man. There’s a lot of negatives with the internet but you gotta love seeing the Epsteins, Nygaards and terrible outfitters of the world go down.

From: LINK
16-Jan-22
Wapiti I’m not sure when you guided but USO was flying to locate elk and blocking public roads with trucks in the Gila units back in the mid 90s and maybe earlier. Seems they just figure out new ways to be bigger douche nozzles as time goes on.

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