Might try a mechanical
Equipment
Down to the last couple of days of hoping to tag a doe. I will be hunting an hour from home and by myself. Not a problem, I like it that way, except I am red/green color blind. Which makes blood trailing very hard. If I make a less than perfect shot, it can be frustrating.
I am thinking about trying a wide cut mechanical. I have shot two turkeys with a NAP Killzone, but never a deer in my 47 years of hunting whitetails. This time of year I limit my shots to max of 20-25 yds and normally broadside just because of how wired the does are right now. With my current rig, hard quartering or even slightly quartering on shots I will take because I have the horsepower to do it. Never had a problem and done it many times. With the mechanical, I would stick to broadside.
So, would a mechanical really put one down a few yards sooner? Less chance of having to track them farther? Maybe more blood in case I do have to track (at least try to)?
For those of you that have switched, what were your results?
My experience having shot a fair number of deer with MBH's - they tend to run harder due to the resistance of the MBH but stand a good chance of bleeding more due to the size of the holes. The combination seems to result in recovery distances being fairly similar to fixed blades.
I've also had a few bad hits turn into good hits due to the larger cutting diameter. I am a Vortex fan (Bowsite sponsor).
In my experience with both, MBHs have resulted in by far the longest blood trails. I never had a MBH zip cleaning thru an animal that, afterwards, just took a few steps then dropped. I’ve had that happen numerous times with fixed blades.
Of course, prepare to get opinions on both sides of this fence. I’m just sharing mine.
Matt
I've only shot a handful of whitetails with mechs (Rage Trypan). They were all pass-throughs, all died within sight, and all had massive blood trails. They all ran hard at the hit.
I've had a few whitetails I've shot with 2-blade fixed back in the day that acted like they weren't hit and just tipped over. Blood trails were really lacking on the ones that ran out of sight.
The only study I've seen on deer recovery, fixed vs. mech, showed mechs were favorable by a large margin.
I switched to mechanical specifically for the blood trails. I shot 2 does and a buck this year. Not only did they all pass through - 2 buried in ground. The deer ran 60-100 yards. I’ve also shot pigs - same results. I’ll be using on bears this spring.
Or you could have poor penetration and have a longer blood trail to follow. Never know.
My crew has killed a pile of deer over the last 20 plus years with Wasp Jak-Hammers 13/4 cut heads. I started using them way back then because I am also color blind and decent hit deer do not go far and leave blood trails I can follow. You have to shoot a higher KE/ Momentum set up.
If you put it in the right spot any sharp 100 gr broadhead will do the job. As a fixed blade hunter for years, I switched to mechanicals on deer bear and antelope and they are my first choice now. I have always tried different heads but opt for mechanicals on these 3 species.
On deer sized game you are just making recovery more difficult if you haven't switched to a large diameter two blade mech... PERIOD
"On deer sized game you are just making recovery more difficult if you haven't switched to a large diameter two blade mech... IN MY OPINION
I fixed it for you.
Matt
Never have used a mechanical in 40 plus years of bowhunting. Arrowed three white tails this fall. Two fell in sight at about 40 yards. The other fell in 100 yards. I was using a fixed two blade with bleeder, specifically an Iron Will 125V. I’m sure a 2” mechanical would have had similar results, as they were all broad side shots. I prefer to have a BH that works well when things go wrong, and in my opinion, that’s a COC shaving sharp 1”- 1 1/4” fixed head. Your results and opinion may differ, and that’s fine.
Great call. Once you go to a big mechanical you will wonder why you haven't tried them earlier. Another big fan of the Wasp Jak Hammer here!
You make no mention of what type of bow you’re shooting. Could make a difference?
IMO, there is nothing like watching deer sized game or a bear for that matter, drop in 15 yards. Given the size of the wound, the blood trail is unbelievable sometimes, when the shot is perfect. That said, poundage and shot placement are always key, just like with a fixed BH. What I will say and have unfortunately experienced, is when your shot is less than perfect, as others have said, tracking and even no recovery makes this decision harder, but in the end, its the "Indian not the arrow". I do use both types.
A good mechanical is equally impressive on Elk.
I've pondered this thought throughout my entire hunting life. I've shot many many different broadheads, both mechanical and fixed. Ive gone back and forth a couple times looking for that magic answer, and honestly there is none. Every single shot of every single deer by me or anyone else has too many variables to declare an answer. Let's just look at a few to prove this. The animal's position at the shot. The shot placement. The equipment you use. The sharpness of the blades. The bevel of the blades. Type of broadhead. Size of animal. These are but a few of many more possible variables that gives you so many answers. At this point in my life I lean towards what performs best when shot placement is not perfect. Sharpness and strength are what I look for. The reason being, is arrow speed and arrow length vary from one hunter to the next. Shot placement can be anywhere (deer move and we miss the mark). So, sharpness and strength are where I feel you should lean. The other part of this discussion, should talk about arterial severing, and pass throughs. The more blood vessels you cut, and having an exit hole is optimal in quick deer deaths and recovery. All said, and deciding for myself, I've determined that a very sharp (beyond factory sharp) strong fixed blade does the best for me, when dealing with variables that are sure to happen. Ask yourself if bone was involved, (because shit happens), what would you really want to be shooting? All my opinion. All of which have been beat to death, but this is what I've concluded after 41 years of killing stuff. Of course I've witnessed both styles cause some amazingly quick deaths, but what about when your shot placement IS NOT perfect?
I'd suggest you use what you have the most confidence in. I switched to mechanicals( Rage, Sevr) for deer and bear several years ago and believe they kill quicker with better blood trails than fixed blade designs. I don't think the animals run farther after being hit with mechanicals if you were to look at a large number of animals being shot. I don't shoot a high poundage bow but have used smaller cutting diameters with a swept back design and that has worked well for me. Good luck!
I don't think the extra 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch are worth the headaches. ST Magnums here
“Once you go to a big mechanical you will wonder why you haven't tried them earlier”
I tried a Rage once and wonder why. Have use MBH’ 3x - first, last and never again !
I used mechanicals before and couldn’t stand that the Rage popped open every time it brushed up on a twig and that was last time I used them. Never had any issues with fixed in regards to Bloodtrails. Longest run was around 100 yards and shortest run was around 15-20 so typically same as mechanical.
The biggest advantage to a mechanical is it hits where you aim when you form isn't the greatest, like when it cold and your bundled and the adrenalin is pumping, my wound rate went way down when I switched, I love mech's, not as strong as a fixed but I will take my chances. For the bigger stuff, elk and moose, I shoot a fixed, for now
I think you have to begin with understanding your equipment and first and foremost ensuring you have it as finely tuned as is humanly possible. If you use a MBH that opens in a scissor-like fashion the amount of KE used to deploy the heads is higher than the newer models that deploy rearward.
I've used MBH's for over 20 years and I used to get nauseous with some of the early ads that basically positioned them as the solution to "hard to tune bows." Considering the increased KE used to deploy I felt if anything the need for a great tune was amplified with MBH's.
Once you're set with tuning it becomes important to understand matching the broadhead to the game depending on how much KE you start with (and remember, KE calculations show KE at the bow, and this will decrease cumulatively as the arrow travels downrange.
I know of people who have the physical tools to shoot high poundage, heavy arrow set-ups that generate a high enough KE to use successfully on large game animals like elk; conversely I know some who are good for deer and marginal at best for bigger game; given this it falls to solid hunter ethics to move to either a fixed blade or COC head in my opinion.
For this reason I don't advocate MBH's across the board despite all the years of success I've had with them; we're not a one-size fits all group of hunters and it's up to the individual to make that determination, hopefully with a healthy level of respect for the game, the sport and his or her fellow hunters.
"...but what about when your shot placement IS NOT perfect?"
When the shot is not perfect, like back in the liver, diaphragm, and/or guts, I'd rather have a big mech making the hole.
And when it's in the shoulder? ;-)
Midwest, I'd have to agree with you when it is a rearward shot.
I have used Rage hypo's, Typans, Vortex, and recently Serve 1.5" heads as far as two blade mechs. I've also shot rocket steelheads and Grim Reapers for 3 blades. Honestly I've had nothing but the best of results with all these heads. Not as fond of the Grim Reapers as the rest. I also prefer the rear deeply two blades to the Vortex, as the entrance isn't always as big, and you are only guaranteed one hole.
I think you are on the right track and will see vast improvement for tracking purposes. I've shot many animals with both fixed and mech and the mech recoveries averaged across the board are shorter, and bloodier. Substantially so when talking about the wider two blade rear deploy heads. I have never lost any animal because of the head I was shooting. I have only had one instance in my life where I felt like the head truly "saved" me. That was a gut shot buck with a Rage Trypan. I've never lost an animal due to a heavy bone hit. I have liver shot a buck with a Vortex that only went 50 yards and he bedded up and expired about 45 minutes later in sight that I think would have gone much further with a fixed head or smaller mech. This year I hit a very large bodied buck (dressed 238lbs) in the main leg bone with a Serve 1.5 and it broke that bone, broke ribs and still cut the heart. Buck ran 90 yards and died in sight. I could never expect better performance from any fixed head.
I have always tried to shoot heads with steel ferrules. The Steelheads, Vortex AA, and Serve heads all have steel ferrules. A slight bend in your ferrule means you are trying to push something through with a crooked tip. Just picture it. Upon impact I want to make sure that ferrule is straight, and have never had penetration issues. In fact, I would put a rocket steelhead up against any broadhead out there for penetration. But if you want blood and short trails, go with a wider 2 blade rear deploy IMO. Tune your setup with a big 3 blade fixed head, then use a 2 blade rear deploy for killing time.
Compound, crossbow, or trad equipment? Would make a difference also. Can’t give advice until all factors are known. Just another variable!
Entrance hole.
Entrance hole.
I was sitting on the fence concerning mechanicals. I decided to use one my AZ hunt. This is the first animal I ever killed with a mechanical head. I used a Sevr 1.5.
"And when it's in the shoulder? ;-)"
I believe odds are much higher hitting too far back than in the shoulder. Few archers hold close to the shoulder or front leg bones instead erring back towards liver. Also, if an animal takes a step at the shot, you're going to hit back.
Besides, a shoulder hit with a fixed blade is no guarantee of adequate penetration to make a kill.
There is more area from the diaphragm to the front of the hips on every animal than there is hard bone. When crap hits the fan, I want a mechanical because that crap is going to more than likely hit soft tissue instead of bone. This was a gradual shift for me as I was fixed heads only for 20 plus years. After using mechanicals quite a bit for the past 10 years they are my first choice now.
In my experience, animals shot with a mechanical run like they are on fire but they typically put more blood on the ground. I haven't found a huge difference if any with regard to length of blood trail. I like them because there are numerous mechanicals available that are tough enough for anything I hunt and they tend to be less impacted by shooter flaws during crunch time.
Good luck figuring out your broadhead choice. I have unintentionally shot 2 deer in the shoulder. One shot was through both shoulders. One arrow was tipped with a 3-blade Montec, the other with 3-blade QAD Exodus. One of the Exodus' blades hit the ridge and penetrated it. Each arrow passed through the deer. For as wide a cut as the Exodus has, it flies very well. Again, best of luck.
Mechanical equipment always fails at the wrong time.
There are tons of both mechanical and fixed head broadheads on the market. I personally love tinker with broadheads and test them on animals. I currently have three different broadheads on my arrows in my quiver, two mechanicals and one fixed blade. I like to gain first hand experience with them on animals as opposed to hearing opinions from others who do not have that first hand experience.
That said, there is NO magic broadhead out there. Each has a pro and con. Before picking your broadhead, I think you need to take into consideration your bow set up. Assuming you are using a bow with adequate poundage and KE, and the bow is tuned and you hit where you are aiming, in my opinion, on deer sized or thing skinned game, a mechanical broadhead is absolutely devastating. The holes are massive and the blood tails are typically massive and short. If you happen to hit farther back than you wanted, the larger wound puts the game down quicker. On the negative side, if you hit them in the shoulder you may not get as much penetration but you may not recover those animals with a fixed head either. Hit where you are supposed to and most of the time the animal is going to go down within site.
Live2Hunt. You had better be shooting a slow as molasses trad bow. RD in WI there was a recent thread on here where a fixed shooter stuck a fixed head in the ridge of shoulder blade and never penetrated the near side shoulder blade. Just for interest sake.
Midwest,
I purposely will shoot a deer slightly quartering to me in the shoulder. I have blown though them every time. None have made it past 90 yds. All but one has been a complete pass through. I have done this with Slick Trick Magnums, Wac Em 4 blade, Thunderhead and Elk Mountain Phantoms. All 125 grain. Only thing I don't like about doing that is the meat damage.
Just so there is no argument with the fanboys, I won't mention the brand of bow I shoot but it shoots 465 grain arrows, 29" long at 268 fps. I tune my own bows to shoot bare shafts with fletched arrows at 30 yds.
A couple of times I have shot whitetails hard quartering away and exited between the front legs. Pass throughs. That has been as much as 36" of penetration and the arrow kept going. Broken two front leg bones (on mature bucks) on heart shots with the arrow penetrating 8-10" through the bone out the other side. Slick Trick mags are tough! So penetration with my rig has never been a problem.
What interests me in mechanicals is the blood trail. Sometimes my fixed don't leave much. The past two years I have been using the G5 Striker X, 1 1/4" wide 4 blade. I have shot 5 deer with them and not a decent blood trail (for me anyway) on any of them, but I walked right to where I last saw them and found each one just past that. Average recovery has been 93.5 yds.
Looking at the Bloodsport Gravedigger with the cut on contact front blade. Mostly because that is what I have. I guess I will decide in a couple of hours when I am in the treestand!
Thanks for the comments.
Apaul, yes I do shoot a recurve. But, when I shot compound I also stayed with fixed for the reason, mechanical equipment will fail at the wrong time. That law did not allow me to go with a mechanical because they will fail being a mechanical device.
Lets take the discussion further. Recovery rates, Fixed VS Mechanical.
Interesting
Bowboy,
Can you give a little more info on your hit? Looks like the head didn't open. Did you inspect the organs when you gutted him to see where/if it opened?
Did you get an exit wound?
He shot it with a Sevr 1.5. Based on the hole, it definitely opened. If not, it would have been a field point hole. The Sevr exit holes are often not full cut because the blade pivots between ribs. You get a little less blood on the ground compared to some other mechanicals but they are tough as nails and fly great.
Treestandwolf,
It would be cool to see what his updated data says? Assuming they continued to track this information, there should be 5-6 more years of data now.
I recall someone posted about a friend using “Cape buffalo” type setup for whitetail and specifically shooting for spine, high shoulder shots.
That would take care of your tracking problems!
Bowfreak - they added more updated data in the comments section of that article:
Since publishing “A Comparative Study on the Effectiveness of Fixed Blade and Mechanical Broadheads”, we have continued to gather deer recovery data. Last year, I informally incorporated three more years of recovery data (2013 - 2015, 104 hit deer) into the data base. The additional data make it very unlikely that broadhead choice does not influence deer recovery (p = 0.00028).
This table summarizes the recovery data to date:
................................Percentage of Hit Deer Recovered per Choice of Broadhead
Period..................... Fixed Broadhead.............................. ....Mechanical Broadhead
1989-2006.................82.1% (746/908)......................... N/A (Mechs were not allowed)
2007-12.....................81.0% (128/158)......................................... 90.9% (209/230)
2013-15.................... 81.1% (30/37)............................................. 91.0% (61/67)
Total
1989-2015.................82.0% (904/1103)........................................ 90.9% (270/297)
Note that while the difference in recovery rates for broadhead choice may appear to be small, bowhunters who used mechanical broadheads had ~1/2 the wounding (or loss) rate of bowhunters who used fixed blade broadheads.
^ ^ ^ Can't wait for the "that's not a scientific study, there's too many variables!!!"
Which is exactly why the study is sound.
I switched to MBH's (rage) about 20 years ago. I've had great success - on deer and elk.
I shot this elk at a pretty steep uphill angle. You can see the exit hole is high from the COC rage. She ran full out, down a VERY steep slope, for about a hundred yards to a nice little flat spot - crashed into a tree and I'm quite certain was dead before she hit the ground. I will say that there was very little blood due to the high hit and the high exit.
It opened on impact and went thru the heart. It buried on the opposite side leg bone. It was fully deployed. It did it’s job and the buck only went maybe 60yds.
The thing I didn’t like about the rages, is they would catch easily on brush, while stalking and then open up. If I was sitting a stand or blind, I like using them, such bad ass big ass holes…but for the most part, the Wasp Jak Hammer has been such a reliable killing tool on hogs to elk, deer to moose, that I just keep going back to them.
I've a huge fan of the Wasp jakhammer 1 3/4". I know some people really dont like the over the top mechs but these things have performed about perfectly for me one the 5 or 6 deer I've shot with them.
APauls,
I read that in the comments section. The last data was from 2015. There should be 5-5 more years of data assuming they kept tracking it.
Don't ever use a Shwacker. Failure to deploy and bent blades even on turkeys. All my 30 second kills with mechanicals were using Rage.
Ive never had an issue with the Nap spitfires, i have shot multiple deer, moose and bear with them and followed short blood trails. This years bull made it 30 yds.
I didn’t read past Midwest’s first post. Cause he said it really well. And, it mimics my experiences.
A mortality hit deer seldom dies without coming out of the whole hard. I’m certain that is everyone’s experience, So, I use a deers reaction at the shot to re-enforce what I thought I saw at the shot. And, as a place to start when I’m not sure of the hit location.
But, in my limited experience of filming and watching maybe 20 deer being shot with a mechanical, I’ve never witnessed a deer mortality hit, that didn’t blow out like they were running from death.
And. I’ve seen two blade blood trails that didn’t even exist until you were insight of the dead deer. I’ve also witnessed many blood trails of my own, and of hunting partners, that ended in deer shot perfectly through the kill zone, that didn’t have as much blood to be found, as a mechanical head had within the first 5 yards of impact. Plus, I’ve Never not found a deer at the end of a blood trail, that was hit within the body line of any deer, with a mechanical head.
Not any better way of saying then Nick did. Just another example of what he said.
"A good mechanical is equally impressive on Elk." I totally agree Bob. The only reason I generalize that way when it comes to this subject is I usually don't know what they are shooting for set up... One of this years Trypan bulls.
No two hits are exactly the same, so comparison results become impossible, and mean little. Mechanicals have killed a lot of game, you need to be the judge in your particular situation.
"Bowsite.com, the same arguments since 1997"
"Bowsite.com, the same arguments since 1997"
Love it lol... Cant believe this is even and argument now days.. Shoot what you want and what works for your set up... it DOESN'T matter if you do that. Get over it Mechanicals are as good as fixed if both are used with the proper set up....... I shoot fixed, just my preference
Ironbow what did you decide?
Shot a bunch of deer and only used mechanical. Almost all dropped in site. You put it in kill zone it's a dead deer quick. I shoot Rage
Turned out to be a moot point. I did put one on the string, but no shot came and the season is now over. I was kind of looking forward to using one, but will have to wait until next fall. Thanks for all the comments.
"Same argument since 1997" Yes and No. This used to be a VERY heated debate. Now, it's just a bunch of people sharing their good fortune along with a couple hold-outs ;)
"Don't ever use a Shwacker."
Used one on a whitetail up in NE one year. Complete pass through and watched it go down 30 yards from where it was shot. Entrance was a 1" gash, the exit was a 2" gash.
I won't use one again on an elk though...
The vast majority of people who are against mechanicals have never used one. FACT.
Both designs work. I am 5 for 5 on elk with Spitfires….but then I switched to fixed due to my system and never looked back.
Guys talk about blood on the ground but there are so many other more important factors, IMO. Now, I’m a fixed 2 blade guy for multiple reasons…one being most of the animals I shoot never know they have been hit the arrow goes through them so fast and almost all die in sight- no trailing needed.
Rage Extreme , Black Bear, 12 yard shot, fell within sight.
He was standing up when I shot. Second pick is after we skinned him.
17 years shooting Rocket Steelheads. Deer, bear, elk, caribou and aoudad all have fallen to this little head. Its all about location, location, location.
I have killed 72 deer with Wasp Jak Hammer heads. I have killed others with some other expandable heads but stick with Jak Hammers since they never fail me. A few years ago I started using a crossbow and never recover a bolt since they are buried some place under the leaves. Even with a compound bow I nearly always got pass throughs. Killed a few boar hogs with Jak Hammers also. Got pass throughs on them also. With a Ravin Crossbow I can shoot all the way, front to back, through a deer. I don't do that anymore since field dressing is a mess. I like broadside lung shots through the lungs. Nice clean field dressing.
I like the combo fixed/mechanical. Minimizes the risk inherent in each.
Some of those twisted / bent blades look familiar, Charlie !
Ha Ha Marvin: These two pics look particularly familiar. Thanks again for your help this season.
Rage Trypan hole on my elk…
I'm a rage guy, their heads have gotten much better over the years. I sharpen every blade before hunting. Not a fan of the Sevrs. Never opened up on a bear this past fall.
I know opinions are like assholes..... I have killed quite a few deer with wasp jakhammers. They have left me the best blood trails of all the heads I've e er used. The only reason I stopped is that the price went up and I have found thst they are a 1x use head. They take a 'wow' after almost every use. Some people are ok with that, and I was too, but the price increase was the deciding factor for me. I found They really shine with high speed setups and penetration improved the faster they went. Arrow weight didn't matter. I have tried many broadheads and those are my favorite although I don't use them anymore. Stainless slick trick standard currently.
"My Bow, My Choice" - Pro-Mechanical User
In my compound days I killed my first deer with an expandable. Was not happy with the results. My cousin shot a doe with a rage, wasnt impressed. So if I ever go back to a compound I would only use a fixed blade. More that likely a 3 blade Muzzy One or Hellrazor. JMO
I've used fixed blade heads of various design for 50 years. I can't really say that any of them were significantly better than the others...shot placement trumps broadhead design. However, I'm going to try a MBH come fall. I've got some Sevr 2.0s coming. One thing I will do upon their arrival is assess their sharpness and re-sharpen if necessary. My experience with any broadhead I've used in the past...unless they utilize razor blades...is that they need sharpened.
