Contributors to this thread:
I hate to see this…though it was predictable.
Archery hunters have invested 27 years of their lives in a non res Elk tag in Colorado and they still can’t draw a unit 2 archery elk tag. It will soon be 30 gears and climbing with no end in sight.
Point creep for ell in every state has gone nuts….and the changes AZ made restricting non res tags made about 5 yrs ago made it much worse.
AZ unit 9 non res archery elk takes 23 point to guarantee a draw. And to think I drew that unit 30 yrs ago with 2.
So you wont see a non res guy under the age of about 40 with a Az u9 archery elk tag-
Isn’t that age discrimination? Grin
Norse link to Newbergs vid.
It seems to me we were 10 years ahead of him here on Bowsite. I bet you could pull up threads from 6 to 10 years ago saying the same thing.
I dont want to sound like a little biotch….actually I’m thankful for hunting the heyday of elk hunting.
We used to call bulls in every day in over-the-counter Colorado back in the 80s.
Glad I snagged my resident Co unit 2 archery elk tag when 15 was enough and Unit 76 last year when 9 was enough. The last ‘premium’ Colo archery elk tags I may ever see.
You do realize the definition of the word "premium" literally means more money. There continues to be plenty of premium elk hunting available.
I bailed out of the points race for elk and deer and don't buy any more weighted points for sheep, goat and moose here. I hunt elk and deer in 0-1 point limited units or OTC elk. Still grab antelope points for a couple options that take 4-5.
I burned my elk points a decade ago ago to hunt 61 instead of waiting for the top units. I would just now be knocking on the door. I spent my 13 deer points on a 0-1 point unit so I could hunt with my son. No regrets.
When AZ up and changed the draw it went from 10 to get a tag to well Im at 19 non resI still haven’t drawn.
Thought I would be in for sure for my "mid-tier" AZ elk unit this year but seeing the points it took last year was the same number of points I have this year means there's a good chance I won't draw with the way point creep has been going.
I got into the game about 20 years too late. With that said, I make the most of my opportunities and am thankful to have had some great OTC elk hunts - we didn’t punch a tag but had some great encounters. Built points and am chasing units in 3 different states. I think I’ll finally draw them in the next 3 years.
I waited 22 years to draw my preferred "trophy" elk unit as a resident. It was well worth the wait, and I'd do it all over again, but it was different than I had envisioned. I wasn't expecting the number of scouters that I saw during the archery season, many didn't even have tags. There was also a lot of general recreational traffic running ATVs everywhere. Overall, it wasn't the remote and solitary hunt that I had dreamed of, but it was still one of the best elk hunts I've ever had.
I’ve drawn 3 elk tags in Colorado using PPs in 30+ Years - Units 10/61/49. All good hunts.
I have been cashing in my points. I only have UT and CO left. Used WY and AZ. Probably won't bother to rebuild. When the states figured out that selling hope was another revenue source, I sort of lost interest.
At least with points you know where you stand. With CO's weighted point system, they are selling hope. People are dying with max points, while others draw with zero or one weighted point.
I feel bad for the young guys that have been convinced to start playing this game.
I currently have 20 points for elk in Nevada- $2500 in licenses- and it gives me a whopping 2% better chance to draw the tag over a first timer.
Those of us that hunted elk with a bow in the 80s, 90s and 2000s were blessed.
I drew 3 tags in Az as a non res in a 6 year time frame back in the day.
Stopped chasing high point units a handful of years ago when I dumped my 17 points in 61 when it took 14. I was getting tired of the points game/creep, and have no regrets. 61 was a blast and I had 2 330 + 7x7 to chase. Ate my tag because of those 2, but passed numerous bulls under 30 yds bugling in my face! Year before I shot a 350 on otc which made it easier to hold out. There are plenty of P&Y caliber bulls in low point and otc units to keep me excited about what could show up! Just done playing that game, I’m happy just chasing bulls (though it’s getting much more aggravating in Colorado). Pronghorn points I have 19 though because I just keep going otc because I don’t want to take time away from elk hunting. I don’t think there is much in Colorado worth that many points now for pronghorn, so I will At some point dump them in a unit that requires much less.
...and I distinctly remember a poster arguing with me some years ago that point creep didn't exist for WY moose lol. I bailed on that specific chase a few years back. Now I only stay in AZ and UT because I am deeply vested. I've drawn some wonderful tags that just are not in the cards (except random odds) any more. Sad for the guys just getting started.
Should add I have a lot of moose points but don’t pay for weighted, and still put in for desert sheep. My last 2 tough draw co game animals.
There's probably a sweet spot for people starting to buy points soon again that will cash in after all the other point holders have died. Then you'll face the dip where no one was buying.
But the cost of points in the US is insane. Some guys seem to spend the cost of a guided hunt every year on points.
Beendare, not that it really matters a bunch....but your draw odds are more than 400 times better than a first time applicant's. And given that some of NV's highest demand archery elk hunts have only about 2% NR draw odds with 20 points, shows just how truly bad are the draw odds for a first timer. Point squaring is a killer for the lowest point pools. And even more bleak for them, the attrition rate in the higher point pools remains low and will probably continue that way for decades to come.
I'm not sure about that. With the aging-out of hunters who have a bucket load of points and the flattening of the "Boomer Bubble", I think Adam may have it right.
So you’re saying there’s a chance! I just need to wait out all you old bastards. Lol
Well......I see a double-edged sword scenario here. Folks are always saying we need more hunters. To me...with that wish...the point creep will continue unless the states increase the quotas for an extended period of time to thin out the high point holders and let new blood have a chance.
Call me when it happens Lou ;-) Have heard that theory for a long time, during which time the low and medium point pools have increased exponentially in size. More & more so, with every new hunt application service that pops out of the woodwork. Thirty-somethings with 15-20 points are probly not going away soon.
Regarding western hunting opportunity, the information barrier is long-since eliminated, unfortunately leaving just COST as the final roadblock. So now the hunt-crazy among us will either have to find the means to buy our way aboard, or take up fishing.
The only species I would be tempted to jump back into the points game for in Colorado besides my ongoing moose draw disappointment, would be bighorn. I had a great time on that hunt(December rut hunt), and after 3 points anything is possible?! But I want a desert sheep so that keeps me from entering the game again. I fear some of these 0-3 point units for elk could start climbing as more people cash in and decide not to wait that long again!?
IMO, the single biggest factor contributing to elk tag point creep in Colorado is unlimited OTC tags. Guys can stock pile points, while still hunting OTC every year. If Colorado would go to a state-wide limited draw, that would flush a lot of the points out of the system, and I think you'd see some of the more coveted tags become easier to draw. At the very least, they should make PPs and OTC tags an either/or choice. Either get a PP or a OTC tag, but not both.
I am lucky I starts 22 years ago. I have had some amazing elk tags. I feel for the new guys, it is a looooong wait for a good elk hunt. I have drawn archery 27 elk AZ, NV late rifle (good unit forgot what unit exactly near Utah), NM muzzle 36 & 15, CO 76 bow, WY 62 twice.
"IMO, the single biggest factor contributing to elk tag point creep in Colorado is unlimited OTC tags. Guys can stock pile points, while still hunting OTC every year. If Colorado would go to a state-wide limited draw, that would flush a lot of the points out of the system, and I think you'd see some of the more coveted tags become easier to draw. At the very least, they should make PPs and OTC tags an either/or choice. Either get a PP or a OTC tag, but not both."
Says the guy who gained 22 PPs and still went elk hunting those years
Well said Matt! The boomers dying out might help a little but won't stop point creep.
I started buying into Colorado 26 years ago with the intent of saving points because they were preference so I could have more control in a year when I wanted a tag in my pocket. Boy did that get drawn out. Ended up in no man's land for a decade+, Lol. However, had one of my sons move to the state this month and I want that tag in my pocket so I can get a couple visits to my grandkids now. So I guess it worked out. Got 90% odds for unit 61 so will apply. During those 26 years drew a lot of slammer tags in other states and scored my trophies. So this hunt I just want a fun time.
I'm seriously considering cashing in all my CO moose weighted points to try to draw a cow tag, just so I can hunt local moose once before I get too old.
Jaq just because I know you also understand finances any idea what you got into those moose points if you add in TVM as compared to a mediocre mutual fund?
Beendere, you mentioned you drew unit 9 with 2 points 30 years ago. Arizona’s population was 3.6 million in 1990. Today, it’s over 7.5 million. Draw success 30 years ago is irrelevant today. It’s a whole different monster here now in Arizona. Hell, I can’t even draw a mid-tier September hunt anymore with 7 points as a resident.
Adam, not much, because until the last couple years a point only cost $3.00. So it isn't monetary value. More aggravation because I see moose almost every day from April-November, even occasionally in winter, but haven't drawn in all those years. I know two people who drew bull moose with 3+1.
Jaquomo a lot more of that coming with the influx of applicants thanks to CPW getting rid of the up front fee. cnelk that's funny glad you called that hypocrite out.
"Says the guy who gained 22 PPs and still went elk hunting those years"
I played the game by the rules that were set for me. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be satisfied playing under a different set of rules. I'd actually like to see my 35 year old best friend draw a premium tag before I'm too old to share the hunt with him. As it stands now, that won't happen.
Not sure what all the hate on Matt is about. But if you can't see the logic in not allowing people to build points while elk hunting every year helping point creep you're crazy. Further I see nothing hypocritical about playing the shit system setup by the CPW while wishing for something better. I hunted elk in Colorado this year and got my point and hope for a change if that makes me a hypocrite I bet I'm in good company.
Glad I got in on the 90s up until about 2013………..wish I would have know what I was doing in the 80s……not seeing other bow hunters for days.
Every time I've discussed my 3 year stint as a partner in a outfitting business, I've stated it was the worst career move I've ever made. I couldn't care less what outfitters think of my plan. They are part of the problem, not the solution, IMO.
If you want hunting to continue its slow decline into oblivion, continue to promote policies that favor those who capitalize on a state owned resource. Just look at the sheep hunting costs threads. Guys who could afford those hunts not too long ago now bemoan the fact they can't afford them any more. How long do you think it will be before those same threads will be about elk hunting?
F*** O** Shawn. You’ve been booted more than PaulZ. You contribute zero and I’m not sure why Pat tolerates your constant confrontational bravo Sierra.
Honestly Pat, block this clown. Permanently.
Hey, Dick Grass (Shawn), how'd you like getting your ass handed to you by Rocky on the Biden thread, yesterday? I notice you're licking his quiver today, "sol-jah". LMAO!!
Wow that went side ways! I am just happy to go out west and have an adventure. Collect a few points here and there and then go hunt when I draw. I have enjoyed some great hunts with my kids and friends for good representative animals. Just wish I had the time and money back in the 90's when I could have hit a few better areas.
Not being able to hunt OTC and get a point would likely reduce revenue. Many nonres won't blow their points or skip getting more in order to get an otc tag.
Here’s the dealio tho.
Grey Ghost woulda howled like scalded cat if the CPW would’ve changed ‘the rules set for him’ after 15 years of collecting PPs
You know it. I know it. We all know it.
I disagree. I think a lot of NR hunters in PP no-man's land, who aren't willing to give up their annual OTC hunt, would cash in their points. That would take pressure off of point creep. Guys who are committed to a "trophy unit" tag would stay in the game.
LOL. When I started applying for my dream unit, it took 4-6 preference points. I drew it at 22 PPs. Why is that? It's because those units were only a handful of units that the CPW limited the number of hunters. Imagine that.
I drew the Unit 2 archery tag 7 years ago. I was 60 when I finally drew the tag.
No one made you "invest" 27 years to draw unit 2! Haha you are still several years out I really hope your not crying about this next year too.
“ It's because those units were only a handful of units that the CPW limited the number of hunters. ”
GG, it’s really great that CPW is focusing on quantity instead of quality and maximizing hunting opportunities!
I guess they live by the motto of “go ugly early”.
I would have hunted Utah long ago if they hadn’t changed it so NRs could apply for everything. That Actually I should say changed it to give the appearance we can apply for multiple species. That change doubled the competition and upped the points needed considerably