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Back story: Every buck I had on my NY property was killed during the 6 week rifle season.
Season ended and I’m in coyote killing mode. Except no coyotes are showing up at my baits. So today I put my winter clothes on to see if I can find out why. And I did. Two fawns were killed by coyotes in the deep snow. Both were button bucks.
Is it legal to find a road kill, put it on your property and yote hunt over it?
I don’t need to, I have two dead cows
The yotes killed off the others or was it hunters?
Two weeks ago we had grass showing, and now we have 2 feet of the white stuff... the deer have a trail to my birdfeeder. I hope the yotes don't catch on.
Can u sell it for a lot more than u bought it for?
Maybe put that one up for sale... "Salt the mine" with some shed antlers and maybe a couple of good racks from somewhere else in the cabin not looking overly obvious...
Pat, I have long argued with the DEC about amending the coyote season to all year long. The season ends at the end of March, which is about 6 weeks before does bred during early rut start dropping fawns. This, one of several bad decisions by the DEC, is not based on ANY scientific data. I have never gotten a straight answer from the DEC other than, "You bowhunters need to kill more coyotes when you're out there."
The only good news that will come from the EHD outbreak, is that the coyotes reproductive cycle is directly impacted by the availability of food. When food is plentiful, the bitch can drop 8-10 pups, when food is scarce, she will drop 1-2. So with the recent decimation of the herd in many WMU's from EHD, we should see a significant drop off this coming year.
This is just another example of the mismanagement of a game species by the DEC, and the condescending attitude that they have in regards to sportsmen's concerns.
Those Ohio Amish probably don’t seem quite so bad, now!
I kid! I kid! ;-)
"Back story: Every buck I had on my NY property was killed during the 6 week rifle season. "
Can you could improve the 'sanctuary' aspect of your property? Or did they all rut-roam into danger zones beyond your control?
Al, I did get a straight answer from DEC when I met with the furbearer biologist. When I bought my property there 10 years ago I was horrified to learn that NY actually has a limited coyote season?? Even Uber liberal CT allows us to kill coyotes all year long. So I asked him why?
His response (in a combative tone) was: “what are you gonna do with the coyotes you kill in April; throw them in a ditch?’”
He then went further to tell me why they are good for NY’s ecosystem and overall ecology. I tried to explain that in my northern zone, they were abundant and well fed with deer kills due to the deep snows - and it was impossible to hunt them January through March because it’s you can’t get around until the snow melts in April. He was entirely uninterested and it became apparent in that ten minutes that this guy doesn’t want any of them killed.
That was my very first conversation with DEC. Future conversations with the deer guy were even more ridiculous.
What county are you in Pat?
Dana, I have 320 acres and 50% is sanctuary.
In my zone, there’s no doe tags because the deer population is so low. So DEC gives guys 2 buck tags and 6 weeks of center fire rifle season that starts mid October and ends in December. I’ve managed to protect bucks over the years with my plots and sanctuary but the neighbors know my ground is the primo property and you can’t keep any buck on that small of a parcel. With 6 weeks of rifle eventually most of them get killed but the last two years have been brutal. Only one buck survived in 2020 and none in 2021.
So between the massive over harvest of bucks, and the coyotes picking off buck fawns in deep snow, it’s pretty much hopeless despite my best efforts there.
The land is paid off and my family loves it. And for what it’s worth, it’s the best turkey hunting I’ve ever seen. So I’m hanging onto it and maybe one day the DEC will bring in a biologist that isn’t afraid of the political climate and make substantive changes to seasons and tags.
I won’t hold my breath.
Oneida Steve. It’s the lake effect snow belt region at the lower edge of the Tug Hill plateau.
At least you have great snowmobiling!
Definitely. We own sleds and my family loves riding the trail system up there.
Hunted up in the Florence area some years ago, early ML, saw a few deer but it was great grouse country. Was wishing for a dog and my 20 gauge...
Is trapping legal? I find it far more effective than calling or bait piles. Got 5 off my 214 acres in the last few weeks.
The only thing worse then NYS Dec seasons and regulations is a hunting culture in NY that fully supports it. I used to blame the hunting culture on ignorance however I since amended it to stupidity.
Not to argue, but just to clarify, NYS does have a 2 buck rule. But, one is on an archery/muzzleloader tag and the other is a rifle tag. I don't think Pat's area has a late archery/muzz season like the NYS "Southern Zone".
But, coyotes are a problem. Some areas have guys hunting them with dogs and some groups kill 40 - 50 songdogs a year. Maybe try to find a group to come hunt your area Pat. Or maybe the snow gets too deep there....
Amazing.... a state that literally protects coyotes!! I bet the smack of a bullet hitting coyote flesh sounds even better in an idiotic state like NY....at any time of the year!
Just an honest question, how many do you have to kill to actually have an impact?
Yes you can trap coyotes in NY, but there are few trappers and a short window in the fall to trap before the deep snow arrives. Tough to trap Yotes with 2’ - 3’ of snow on the ground. Snares are the answer but illegal in NY.
I do agree that both bow hunters and gun hunters need to shoot more coyotes when deer hunting. Many won’t do it, afraid of spooking deer ?
Also, not sure if coyotes are worst neighbors than the Amish ? Here they hunt all night on horse back and buggies, and shoot whatever they want.
12 yards. A lot. I get 30-60 a year in a five mile radius. Been doing it for 15 plus years around the house. It’s like I don’t exist. Every year I get around the same amount of them. It makes me feel better thinking I’m doing some good though.
Just to give a little insight into our NYS-DEC, for those fortunate enough to NOT live or hunt NYS.
There used to be an abundance of dedicated Fish and Wildlife personnel, including biologists that worked for the state. They would conduct their field research, their studies, compile the collective data, sometimes after years of dedication to one project, analyze that data and formulate a plan, based on their knowledge and sound science of animal biology, carrying capacity, conservation, etc... They would submit their findings and their proposed suggestions to the "suits". The "suits" would then scrub their recommendations and do whatever they wanted anyway, which 99 times out of 100 was wrong, and based solely on financial impact. How much money can we make by doing it this way?
Due to their years of continued rejection, and firsthand knowledge of how poorly the department was being run, over 70 senior personnel chose an early retirement, rather than stay on board a dysfunctional ship. Truly, a thankless job, reinforcing "thankless" by their bosses, the "suits".
The vacuum that was created, has resulted in what we have been experiencing. I cannot blame them at all, as the political climate here is extremely harsh and unforgiving. We have THE worst wildlife management department in the entire country. And their management of coyote control is a clear indicator of that.
I do not want to discredit everyone, there are a few who really care, but they really are a few and far between.
Al, I agree with you in the most part about the dec, and coyotes do present a problem, but we may be our own worst enemies.
Case in point. This season I've had conversations with guys hunting adjacent land around my camp that had filled every one of their doe permits, buck tags, and, where legal, friends and families doe permits as well. I just recently spoke with a neighboring land owner who boasted of having taken 6 deer, and I know that at least two of his guests took another three from the same camp adjacent to mine. 9 deer from one camp!
I have a parcel about one-third the size of Pats, 120 acres, complete with food plots and a small thick sanctuary of 30 acres that we don't even walk through. I have had this for over 30 years, and what I have come to conclude is that this is not nearly enough property to hold or manage any deer.
The issue now is that neighboring properties and farms have all been sliced into mini hunting camps of 5 to 30 Acres over the last 20 years increasing the pressure on our hilltop tenfold. Coupled with all the friends that are invited to the camps, which I have no problem with, the deer herd is slain to virtually nothing each season. What does survive makes its way onto unhuntable properties where nature lovers do their thing, again no problem there. The following season does rear their fawns on these properties and gradually filter back on to the huntable lands where are they are once again taken by an ever-increasing hunting population.
I am really deciding what to do with the property. Do I keep paying high taxes, planting food plots, and spending dollars trying to keep what few deer remain on my hundred and twenty acres, or do I just let it go and use it as my escape with no trophy potential, or, do I sell it and make one or two forays into trophy rich areas in the midwest and west each year? Unfortunately, finances do not allow more than one trip out west each year with the cost of the camp. I really enjoy my place with my rifle range, archery range, bass Pond, and ATV trails for recreation, but I feel like I'm getting to the point, where, unlike Pat who has decided he will keep his property, I may decide to sell. I'm almost thinking I'm on a three-year plan.
In the meantime I have decided to try something. I've contacted most of the landowners on our road and asked for a meeting on curtailing the shooting of does by property owners and their guests. During the phone conversation I cited some facts that I had received from neighboring properties and tallied up The Kill. I think I may have opened a few eyes when I said that between the adjacent camps we had killed about 40 deer in a half a mile radius, (my camp took one doe for 4 guys).
We are trying to get together in March or April. We'll see how that meeting goes.
To get to my point; We as Hunters can fix the problem. Although the DEC may issue as many permits as they want, we are the ones that ultimately decide to use, or not use the permits.
Sorry this was so long-winded.
Arrowsmith, I can see your point entirely. Hunters need to be stewards of the land, and even though they have purchased tags to kill "X" amount of a species, does not make that the right choice, if the opportunity allows for that to happen.
Case in point was what we experienced in my WMU, and immediate area with the EHD outbreak. Dozens of dead deer within a 2 square mile area. 4 farms and 8 landowners, including myself, made a conscious decision to NOT kill any deer this year. I went out into the woods, because I love it there, and I wanted to see just how bad it was, and bad, is not bad enough a word to describe it. I saw nothing, not even droppings or tracks.
So you are on point for opening that discussion with your neighbors. As a collective, your group can make great strides in improving your herd dynamics.
It is unfortunate, that the DEC does none of that. They ignore the pleas of sportsmen, and are consistent in their ignorance.
Arrowsmith, that's a good plan and maybe it will work.
I did the same. And my landowners are all large ones, 1000 acres, 700 acres and two around your size. I explained that (given our large tracts) we had the ability to protect young bucks and then in 3-4 years, have some of those bucks make it to maturity. They were ecstatic, and they all agreed to start the following season.
That lasted until opening day. Only one person held up his end of the agreement - me. In fact, since I bought my place and did all the plots and habitat improvements, they are all shooting the biggest bucks of their lives (2.5's and an occassional 3.5) during the 6 week gun season. And they all attribute it to my efforts.
So I hope it works better for you than it did for me.
I do have a suggestion for you: If you sell your property, consider buying in Ohio. It's not that far from NY and it's a different world down there. Instead of seeing 90% of my bucks get killed, 90% of my bucks survive. Last year, I had 58 rack bucks on my 130 acres, and 53 survived. This year, I had 48 bucks and only one died - a PY 140" 8 point that was 5.5 and killed by me. The other 47 bucks are still sending me pics.
Arrow smith, good luck with your plan. I tried the same thing 10 years ago and only received cooperation from 1 adjacent landowner, overall our cooperative was a failure . Hope you have better luck.
Oh,, there's a season in NY? My bad.
Arrowsmith, Good luck with your efforts. Just a though for your meeting. I do not know what is the carrying capacity of the land in your area. In Ohio we do not have a winter kill so in areas with great food sources there can be a lot of deer without destroying the habitat. Once the population is as high as it can be tolerated, about half of the mature does can be shot every year without lowering the population. If the habitat can handle it, a couple of years with minimal doe harvest may get the herd to a point where it can support a doe harvest higher that what is being experienced now. Some of your neighbors might be willing to buy into that. Unfortunately, I think that it is rare for any deer herd to be able to withstand a doe harvest of over one doe per 40 acres which would be 16 does per square mile. If there are two does for everyone shot and 2 fawns per doe there would be 64 anterless deer per square mile! If all of the land in a given area is being hunted, it is hard for a bunch of small landowners to harvest even a few does each on 30 acres.
You stated that about 40 deer were shot in a half mile radius which is .785 square miles. That puts the deer harvest at 51 deer per square mile! Easy to see why there are very few deer in the area. I certainly agree that the hunters are the problem if you are trying to trophy hunt. It does not seem like the area will be a trophy area regardless of what you do. Just too many hunters in the area.
Sell and buy in a state where your ROE (return on effort) meets your expectations.
Thanks for all the great input. I have had the same concerns about others not holding their end of the agreement, if we even come to an agreement. I'm trying to be optimistic, but time will tell. Thanks again, Arrowsmith
Pat, I live in Oneida Co. and we have loads of coyotes here. And no shortage of deer. And a bunch of public land hunted by bow and gun hunters all season. Neighbors have hunted yotes with hounds for years, taking upwards of 50 dogs a year in this area. The yotes just reproduce and replace them with no evident population decrease. I fill one or two,doe tags a season here, and usually get one buck. This year I picked up,a fresh killed button buck some yahoo shot and left...to damn lazy to step 30 feet from his truck across the snow in an open lot to retrieve it. Still warm when I found it so I tagged it with one of my doe tags...tasted pretty good for dinner tonight. Point is, deer are heavily harvested by both humans and yotes in central Oneida Co. and the pop is still strong. Not sure why its so different in Highmarket, Redfield or White Lake, except maybe more yahoos party killing deer. I find yote killed fawns and yearlings all the time here. And big bucks are regular visitors to cameras. Maybe not 47 bucks on one plot like Ohio, but they're not scarce here. I don't think DEC management has anything to do with deer pop. decrease here. It is not evident if so. More and bigger deer than I've ever seen in CNY IMO. And more coyotes, and WAY more fishers. Go figure.
TrapperkAyak, I agree with most of your post. The deer population in Oneida and Lewis County are way higher than they were in the 1960’s and 70’s. A series of mild winters spiked the population in the 1980’s and 90’s, and now the population has dropped some from those decades. But still higher than the 60’s. As far as predations goes, coyotes are a problem, but even more troublesome is the expansion of the B Bear population. I’ve hunted Tug Hill for over 50 years, for 35 years rarely if ever saw a bear track. Today, hunting Tug Hill I see bear tracks every day, multiple bear photos on trail cameras, killed one in 2019 and missed one this past fall. As for buck quality and maturity, the big woods areas That I hunt have i’ve seen a net gain in mature quality bucks.
I have 6 pics from last spring just like this.
I have 6 pics from last spring just like this.
Trapper, is your area of Oneida in the Southern zone? Mine is NZ. Our experience over the last few years is nothing like you describe. I agree with Squash, bears are taking a lot of fawns - I'm sure, but I have lots of evidence of coyotes killing them especially from last summer where I got 6 different pics of coyotes with fawns in their mouth. I've been trying to kill bears for 10 years - I have yet to see one. I have hundreds of trail cam photos but just can't get one with my bow. I wish they allowed baiting for bears during the early bear season. That would be a game changer.
Lots of bears on my ground. Some really good ones too. I have only seen them once in person, and that was during turkey season.
Dandy bear. Is baiting ok there? They love apples...
Baiting bears is illegal in NY. Heck the state even banned bear hunting with hounds a few years ago. I have long advocated for a spring baiting season for bears here. But will never happen, I’m surprised that NY has not banned baiting for coyotes .
We lost bear-hounding decades ago, 'public referendum' heavily financed by antis. No baiting either. Bear population is increasing, I see a few every year - except when season is open ;-)
Upper NY I saw zero oak trees, not sure how the beech nut crop is, but found scattered old apple trees with never many apples underneath. Suspect the deer gobbled them as fast as they dropped.
Almost every bear killed in NYS was due to a lucky encounter. Because baiting is not allowed, no one really sets out to "hunt" black bears. If one ambles by while on the stand deer hunting, and the opportunity presents itself, that hunter is extremely lucky for that extremely rare occurrence. Another example of how NYS-DEC is out of touch with reality.
It is true though, that in an area with a large black bear population, they will kill 50% of fawns, with coyotes accounting for the other 50%.
Getting back to coyotes though, do you recall the trailcam set up on a coyote den about a decade ago. In 2 weeks, they brought back 72 fawns to the den.
5 fawns a day for 2 weeks ? Where was there a dense enough deer population for that to occur ? I know where there are two coyote dens ( 15 miles apart ) that I've watched for years and while they do get deer bones around them each spring/summer there's nothing like that and both dens are in very high deer population areas.
I agree that NY's coyotes are not managed properly. Not very many guys trap and those who call predators usually only try a few times a season. With fur prices being at rock bottom and the remainder of the coyote season that is open after deer season often being extremely cold, the desire to get out there after them can be minimal. I do not agree with the idea of allowing baiting for bears in NY. The vast majority of NY hunters, myself included, do not have large tracts of private land. Baiting on public land would be a total shitshow. NY has such a significant population (of people) that baiting would be ridiculous. I hunt in the Catskills and have had decent success on bears when targeting them during the early September bear season. They can be patterned and food sources identified. Yes, it takes a lot of effort to do this in the mountains but it is there for those who want the challenge. Allowing baiting would ruin it for those of us willing to put in the time and effort to get after them on their own terms.
I respect Overlands opinion, but in a nutshell this is why nothing will ever change in NY. Hunter attitudes need to change. Just because a segment of hunters feel a certain management policy, ie baiting bears, won’t work where they hunt, it should not be implemented anywhere in NY. Managing All the SZ the same and NZ the same, has brought us to where we are now. Plenty of bear baiting happened on public land in ME, other states, and Provence’s, don’t recall any ____shows ? And plenty of illegal bear baiting going on in NY too.
Al Dente, here in MA we have an early (September) season when bears bare often still in standing corn. Orchards can be good but not that many around. Otherwise, as you say, it's largely a random thing to find and shoot one. I had an opportunity during late season a few years ago but I won't shoot a sow with a cub. Legal, just wouldn't feel right.
If I really wanted a bear badly, I'd book a guided, baited hunt in Maine.
I honestly don't believe coyotes can be managed by the average guy. Look at hillbilly taking 50-60 within a 5 mile radius annually. Who here can boast that kind of success? Yet, even for him, the population doesn't change. I think about the only way a person could increase his own fawn recruitment, is if you somehow managed to slay a stupid number of coyotes the week before your does give birth. That might help. On one property.
As far as time/reward fixing coyotes is a losing battle. Best to spend your time/$ elsewhere. But every coyote kill does feel good. Now that the market will die off on pelts they aren't even worth it anymore sadly.
Champ your statement that there were no coyotes in NY until the 70’s is positively not true. There have been coyotes in NY since the mid50’s. If I could post pictures here, I’d show a picture of a coyote shot by my grandfather in 1957 in Lewis County. Plus my Dad and others started trying to hunt them with dogs in the 60’s after most of the Bobcats were killed off.
I agree Adam, what other animal can typically have a year round season, no bag limit and they still flourish. I understand that they are not always hunted by the masses like deer are, but that was my first thought with Hillbilly's post. Don't get me wrong, shoot them as often as you can, but the average person will not make a dent in the coyote population.
I have this twisted theory though, no scientific research or merit, just my simple-minded take (who knows, maybe there is a publication out there that I'm not aware of). I feel that the more older coyotes that are taken out, the better for the fawns (at least from the coyotes). I feel that the mature coyotes are the ones that pack up, are smart, and can take down more deer and have more experience with finding fawns. The younger more inexperienced tend to feed on small prey (especially the loners). Again, just my theory, so take that for what its worth. It may not be worth much because when you factor in bears and bobcats, it probably a moot point.
58lb deer killer
58lb deer killer
Here’s a coyote I shot on my land a few years ago. Weighed 58lbs. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to learn there’s some wolf dna in northern NY coyotes.
I agree Pat, in the northeast US for that matter. Here is a big male I shot on state land in the NW corner of CT a few years back (with a 17hmr, thank you CT...lol). I was over a mile in and not going to carry the entire thing out, so I case-skinned it in the woods. Wish I was able to weigh it, but it was a big, heavy one.
Personal experience here: year 2019 I killed 16 coyotes within one mile of my property (Buffalo County, WI). The neighbor shot two others for a total of 18 for the year. 2020 I killed exactly 18 more! Moral of the story is this, if you want to truly help your deer/fawns out you HAVE TO keep killing coyotes. I don't care if it's only one coyote, it's still dead and can't kill any more deer. The timing of when you kill them is critical. You will help the deer in your immediate area the most by killing coyotes from January till May. That's when they are mating and taking up residence in new areas. Kill the coyotes that live there at that time of year and that is going to help the deer and your fawn recruitment most. 35-40 years ago you never heard or saw coyotes in the lower half of WI. Now they are everywhere. It's pretty sad when you go out hunting at night with a thermal and you see more coyotes then deer! Kill every damn coyote you can!
Pat - all Eastern coyotes are a cross between red wolves & coyotes. Genetically, they are "close" and can/did interbreed. That why our Eastern coyotes are bigger than Western coyotes. There is no such thing anymore as "red Wolf" pure DNA. Its all crossed with coyotes and coyotes are crossed with the red wolves.
Most eastern 'wolves' are part coyote, and many eastern coyotes are part wolf. Can all be traced back to western wolves and coyotes. (That's the simplified version.)
My best night so far....5 in one night!
My best night so far....5 in one night!
I kill about 10-15 coyotes a year in NY, I Hunt them at night over bait. I could kill 40 a year if the season didn't end in March. The best time to kill coyotes with a rifle is not in the winter, it's during the hay season - especially after first cut. They come in for the mice and we hammer them in CT. Pelts are worthless, but they're pretty much worthless anyway. The second best time to call coyotes is in May with a fawn distress. The NY Coyote season is one of the worst time to kill coyotes. Everyone is busy deer hunting or trying to keep what little deer they have on their property - so they won't hunt coyotes. After the season closes, especially in the NZ, it's just too hard to move around due to the deep snow. Again, another stupid regulation by the DEC. Hell, even California lets you hunt coyotes all year round.
With regard to Overland's opposition to bear baiting, I understand his point. That's why most state's do not allow baiting on public. It would be a shit show - no doubt. But why not private land? It would sell more licenses, kill more bears, and landowners can say yes or no to it. It can be done either in the spring, or the special early bear season in September. In Ohio, hunters can bait deer, but only on private land. They can designate zones where baiting would be appropriate.
That makes tooooo much sense Pat with the bear hunts..... definitely can't do things that way!
Coyote shot by my grandfather in Lewis County NY late 1950’s. Eastern Coyotes have been here for long time.
A Lobo is a Lobo, only major difference is their size...
I don't remember where that trail cam set up was, it was a long time ago. Coyotes are THE dominant predator by me. We have 2 packs that are separated by a valley, you can hear them howl back and forth at each other on clear night. My cousin traps about 35 every year, and it does not make a dent in their population. We also have a feral dog population as well, and no doubt that they have been interbred. Some "coy-dogs" that have killed are well over 65 pounds. Be it part wolf, part feral dog, or coyote, they need to be eliminated from the equation. And not just for deer, for small game, wild turkey, and upland birds. Their populations have all but disappeared.
Pat, yes but pretty close to the NZ/SZ line. Just south of Rome. Dogs and deer everywhere, and now an occasional bear. Had bear tracks on lease further south near Rt. 20 this year. Fishers all over too, and I bet they take newborn fawns. Thia dog,I shot two years ago opening day rifle,deer. The previous winter it approached me and my dog in the woods, shadowed us for half hour, and would not leave, kept barking at us. It had a fawn kill near that we later found. Had no weapon with me that day or she would have died then and there. No matter how many dogs guys shoot here, it does not impact the overall pop. from year to year.