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Season ended and I’m in coyote killing mode. Except no coyotes are showing up at my baits. So today I put my winter clothes on to see if I can find out why. And I did. Two fawns were killed by coyotes in the deep snow. Both were button bucks.

The only good news that will come from the EHD outbreak, is that the coyotes reproductive cycle is directly impacted by the availability of food. When food is plentiful, the bitch can drop 8-10 pups, when food is scarce, she will drop 1-2. So with the recent decimation of the herd in many WMU's from EHD, we should see a significant drop off this coming year.

This is just another example of the mismanagement of a game species by the DEC, and the condescending attitude that they have in regards to sportsmen's concerns.

I kid! I kid! ;-)

Can you could improve the 'sanctuary' aspect of your property? Or did they all rut-roam into danger zones beyond your control?

His response (in a combative tone) was: “what are you gonna do with the coyotes you kill in April; throw them in a ditch?’”

He then went further to tell me why they are good for NY’s ecosystem and overall ecology. I tried to explain that in my northern zone, they were abundant and well fed with deer kills due to the deep snows - and it was impossible to hunt them January through March because it’s you can’t get around until the snow melts in April. He was entirely uninterested and it became apparent in that ten minutes that this guy doesn’t want any of them killed.

That was my very first conversation with DEC. Future conversations with the deer guy were even more ridiculous.

In my zone, there’s no doe tags because the deer population is so low. So DEC gives guys 2 buck tags and 6 weeks of center fire rifle season that starts mid October and ends in December. I’ve managed to protect bucks over the years with my plots and sanctuary but the neighbors know my ground is the primo property and you can’t keep any buck on that small of a parcel. With 6 weeks of rifle eventually most of them get killed but the last two years have been brutal. Only one buck survived in 2020 and none in 2021.

So between the massive over harvest of bucks, and the coyotes picking off buck fawns in deep snow, it’s pretty much hopeless despite my best efforts there.

The land is paid off and my family loves it. And for what it’s worth, it’s the best turkey hunting I’ve ever seen. So I’m hanging onto it and maybe one day the DEC will bring in a biologist that isn’t afraid of the political climate and make substantive changes to seasons and tags.

I won’t hold my breath.

But, coyotes are a problem. Some areas have guys hunting them with dogs and some groups kill 40 - 50 songdogs a year. Maybe try to find a group to come hunt your area Pat. Or maybe the snow gets too deep there....

I do agree that both bow hunters and gun hunters need to shoot more coyotes when deer hunting. Many won’t do it, afraid of spooking deer ?

Also, not sure if coyotes are worst neighbors than the Amish ? Here they hunt all night on horse back and buggies, and shoot whatever they want.

There used to be an abundance of dedicated Fish and Wildlife personnel, including biologists that worked for the state. They would conduct their field research, their studies, compile the collective data, sometimes after years of dedication to one project, analyze that data and formulate a plan, based on their knowledge and sound science of animal biology, carrying capacity, conservation, etc... They would submit their findings and their proposed suggestions to the "suits". The "suits" would then scrub their recommendations and do whatever they wanted anyway, which 99 times out of 100 was wrong, and based solely on financial impact. How much money can we make by doing it this way?

Due to their years of continued rejection, and firsthand knowledge of how poorly the department was being run, over 70 senior personnel chose an early retirement, rather than stay on board a dysfunctional ship. Truly, a thankless job, reinforcing "thankless" by their bosses, the "suits".

The vacuum that was created, has resulted in what we have been experiencing. I cannot blame them at all, as the political climate here is extremely harsh and unforgiving. We have THE worst wildlife management department in the entire country. And their management of coyote control is a clear indicator of that.

I do not want to discredit everyone, there are a few who really care, but they really are a few and far between.

Case in point. This season I've had conversations with guys hunting adjacent land around my camp that had filled every one of their doe permits, buck tags, and, where legal, friends and families doe permits as well. I just recently spoke with a neighboring land owner who boasted of having taken 6 deer, and I know that at least two of his guests took another three from the same camp adjacent to mine. 9 deer from one camp!

I have a parcel about one-third the size of Pats, 120 acres, complete with food plots and a small thick sanctuary of 30 acres that we don't even walk through. I have had this for over 30 years, and what I have come to conclude is that this is not nearly enough property to hold or manage any deer.

The issue now is that neighboring properties and farms have all been sliced into mini hunting camps of 5 to 30 Acres over the last 20 years increasing the pressure on our hilltop tenfold. Coupled with all the friends that are invited to the camps, which I have no problem with, the deer herd is slain to virtually nothing each season. What does survive makes its way onto unhuntable properties where nature lovers do their thing, again no problem there. The following season does rear their fawns on these properties and gradually filter back on to the huntable lands where are they are once again taken by an ever-increasing hunting population.

I am really deciding what to do with the property. Do I keep paying high taxes, planting food plots, and spending dollars trying to keep what few deer remain on my hundred and twenty acres, or do I just let it go and use it as my escape with no trophy potential, or, do I sell it and make one or two forays into trophy rich areas in the midwest and west each year? Unfortunately, finances do not allow more than one trip out west each year with the cost of the camp. I really enjoy my place with my rifle range, archery range, bass Pond, and ATV trails for recreation, but I feel like I'm getting to the point, where, unlike Pat who has decided he will keep his property, I may decide to sell. I'm almost thinking I'm on a three-year plan.

In the meantime I have decided to try something. I've contacted most of the landowners on our road and asked for a meeting on curtailing the shooting of does by property owners and their guests. During the phone conversation I cited some facts that I had received from neighboring properties and tallied up The Kill. I think I may have opened a few eyes when I said that between the adjacent camps we had killed about 40 deer in a half a mile radius, (my camp took one doe for 4 guys).

We are trying to get together in March or April. We'll see how that meeting goes.

To get to my point; We as Hunters can fix the problem. Although the DEC may issue as many permits as they want, we are the ones that ultimately decide to use, or not use the permits.

Sorry this was so long-winded.

Arrowsmith

Case in point was what we experienced in my WMU, and immediate area with the EHD outbreak. Dozens of dead deer within a 2 square mile area. 4 farms and 8 landowners, including myself, made a conscious decision to NOT kill any deer this year. I went out into the woods, because I love it there, and I wanted to see just how bad it was, and bad, is not bad enough a word to describe it. I saw nothing, not even droppings or tracks.

So you are on point for opening that discussion with your neighbors. As a collective, your group can make great strides in improving your herd dynamics.

It is unfortunate, that the DEC does none of that. They ignore the pleas of sportsmen, and are consistent in their ignorance.

I did the same. And my landowners are all large ones, 1000 acres, 700 acres and two around your size. I explained that (given our large tracts) we had the ability to protect young bucks and then in 3-4 years, have some of those bucks make it to maturity. They were ecstatic, and they all agreed to start the following season.

That lasted until opening day. Only one person held up his end of the agreement - me. In fact, since I bought my place and did all the plots and habitat improvements, they are all shooting the biggest bucks of their lives (2.5's and an occassional 3.5) during the 6 week gun season. And they all attribute it to my efforts.

So I hope it works better for you than it did for me.

I do have a suggestion for you: If you sell your property, consider buying in Ohio. It's not that far from NY and it's a different world down there. Instead of seeing 90% of my bucks get killed, 90% of my bucks survive. Last year, I had 58 rack bucks on my 130 acres, and 53 survived. This year, I had 48 bucks and only one died - a PY 140" 8 point that was 5.5 and killed by me. The other 47 bucks are still sending me pics.

Good luck

You stated that about 40 deer were shot in a half mile radius which is .785 square miles. That puts the deer harvest at 51 deer per square mile! Easy to see why there are very few deer in the area. I certainly agree that the hunters are the problem if you are trying to trophy hunt. It does not seem like the area will be a trophy area regardless of what you do. Just too many hunters in the area.

Upper NY I saw zero oak trees, not sure how the beech nut crop is, but found scattered old apple trees with never many apples underneath. Suspect the deer gobbled them as fast as they dropped.

It is true though, that in an area with a large black bear population, they will kill 50% of fawns, with coyotes accounting for the other 50%.

Getting back to coyotes though, do you recall the trailcam set up on a coyote den about a decade ago. In 2 weeks, they brought back 72 fawns to the den.

If I really wanted a bear badly, I'd book a guided, baited hunt in Maine.

As far as time/reward fixing coyotes is a losing battle. Best to spend your time/$ elsewhere. But every coyote kill does feel good. Now that the market will die off on pelts they aren't even worth it anymore sadly.

I have this twisted theory though, no scientific research or merit, just my simple-minded take (who knows, maybe there is a publication out there that I'm not aware of). I feel that the more older coyotes that are taken out, the better for the fawns (at least from the coyotes). I feel that the mature coyotes are the ones that pack up, are smart, and can take down more deer and have more experience with finding fawns. The younger more inexperienced tend to feed on small prey (especially the loners). Again, just my theory, so take that for what its worth. It may not be worth much because when you factor in bears and bobcats, it probably a moot point.

With regard to Overland's opposition to bear baiting, I understand his point. That's why most state's do not allow baiting on public. It would be a shit show - no doubt. But why not private land? It would sell more licenses, kill more bears, and landowners can say yes or no to it. It can be done either in the spring, or the special early bear season in September. In Ohio, hunters can bait deer, but only on private land. They can designate zones where baiting would be appropriate.