Wyoming outfitter tags!
Elk
I thought I would bring this to the attention of nonres that enjoy hunting Wyo elk, deer, and antelope. As many probably know there is a task force in Wyo that formed to discuss tag allotments. Outfitters in the latest meeting have suggested taking current tags away from nonres and placing them in an outfitter only pool in the draws for deer, elk, and antelope. This is similar to what was done in New Mexico several years ago. If you are a nonres that enjoys DIY hunting deer, elk, and antelope in Wyoming I would suggest staying tuned and possibly commenting on this subject to the Wyoming Task Force.
Do you have a link for public comment?
Can you imagine if it goes to 90/5/5? Sure wouldn’t surprise me.
https://sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce/home/public-input
Just talked to a Wyoming outfitter yesterday about elk. He said the talk is the 90/5/5 split in tags mentioned above.
Currently this proposal is to gage support and not an agenda item.
Wyoming Wildlife Task Force
Issue Recommendation
Resident/Non-Resident Limited Quota Permit Allocation & Non-Resident Outfitter Pool Challenges & Principles Identified:
1. Parity across western states – On average, the western states allocate nearly 90% of deer, elk, and antelope permits to its residents. Wyoming allocates just less than 81%. In principle, Wyoming residents should have similar numbers of limited permits allocated to them as residents from other western states current receive.
2. Economic Impact of Outfitting Industry – Reductions in permits allocated to non-residents could result in negative economic impact on the state’s economy. Wyoming’s outfitting industry contributes to the state’s economy, especially through outfitted non-resident hunters.
3. Leftover Permit Allocation – Many permits in Wyoming would go unallocated if strict ratios for resident/non-resident allocations where adhered too after all sales. Unallocated licenses negatively impact the ability to manage game populations and revenue generated by WGF.
Proposed Solutions:
1. 90/10 on Initial Draw – On the initial drawing for limited quota deer, elk, and antelope, residents would be allocated at least 90% of all permits, and non-residents would receive 10%. This would require the resident draw to go first, and count all three of the applicant’s choices, until all applicants have been drawn or the 90% allocation has been met. The non-resident draw would follow, and count all three of the applicant’s choices until all applicants have been drawn or the 10% allocation has been met.
2. Outfitter Pool – Of the 10% non-resident allocation, at least 5% (half of the available 10%) would be placed in a separate pool where non-residents who are contracted with a licensed outfitter can apply. The outfitter pool draw would be the first draw in the non-resident drawing process, again considering all three of an applicant’s choices, until all applicants in this pool have been drawn or the 5% has been reached. In the case of the former, remaining permits would tip into the general non-resident pool. Any permit issued in the outfitter pool will be sold at the Special license fee level.
3. Leftover Licenses – Any permits remaining after the resident, non-resident outfitter, and nonresident draw would be sold as currently done, on a first-come, first-served basis. The sales of leftover permits have no bearing on the ultimate resident/non-resident allocations proportions.
Would cost the state a ton of revenue. Maybe they don't need it?
Geez, don't WY outfitters already have a welfare subsidy with the stupid wilderness law?
You don't exist to WYOGA unless you're handing them a check.
Outfitters profit off of a state owned resource. It’s a joke to give them more subsidies.
Matt
Lots of proposals out there are being considered. My advice use your points if you can.
Don't think this would cost WY anything. Also don't think it should happen. Any decent outfitter is booked years out, unless they want to up the number of hu ters per week this makes no sense.
Bordering Colorado offers 30% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags to nonres plus OTC elk. If Wyo cuts nonres tags in 1/2 guess where nonres hunters will come. With all the added OTC hunting pressure plus 20% more nonres tags available you can bet that Colo will follow suit with Wyo. I'm a Colo resident and believe it's a sad day for nonres DIY hunters if this happens in both Wyo and Colo. Colo and Wyo are the only 2 states left in the Western US that offer decent nonres opportunity.
It sure is sad if Wyoming follows in New Mexico's footsteps. In the end, wealthy nonres will be able to hunt every year and DIY nonres public hunters will be waiting in super long lines for tags. What happens 20+ years from now if both Wyo and Colo flip their middle fingers to nonres. I really believe our hunting heritage as we know it is in serious jeopardy!
Exactly why I can’t wait to draw and be done. Unfortunate for my kids and grandkids though. My kids have drawn 2 antelope tags and my dad and I have each drawn an elk tag in 16 years. At over $600 per year for points, my over $9000 invested makes us look really really stupid that we’ve supported this- Potentially
I was born right around 15 years too late.
"On average, the western states allocate nearly 90% of deer, elk, and antelope permits to its residents."
Wow. Since CO is 35% NR for limited tags and thats after 20%-25% are taken off the top for land owners/outfitters that can be used by NR, plus OTC elk tags that are around 50/50 Res vs NR, the rest of the states are pretty stingy to get to a 10% NR average.
What's a little fudging of statistics when that much money is at stake.....
Tis the season for Subsidy Sy looking for carve outs.
Montana's doing something similar for the once "rejected by voters" outfitter tags for guided deer. They now get a preference point for booking with a guide, then can purchase another point going into the drawing. Immediately at two points. So much for diy hunters. Screwed again.
Just what we need is something to add to more point creep.
From what I understand I made a mistake. Wyo res are asking for 90% of the tags. Outfitters would get 5% and nonres public would get the remaining 5%. That would be a 75% decrease in limited deer, elk, and antelope tags for public draw nonres.
It would take 3x longer for nonres to draw the same tag. There are quite a few Wyo elk units that only have a couple tags so nonres would likely get 0! If a tag now takes 10 years to draw it would take 30 years to draw if this happens! What a bunch of crock!
What's even sadder is Wyo landowners already get a chunk of tags. No one I talk to knows exactly how many limited tags landowners get because these numbers are kept on the low-low and aren't in the harvest or pref pt statistics.
Outfitters have screwed it up for residents as well. It is all about $$$ now. The ranchers lock up millions of acres of public land access and then lease out to outfitters. Everybody benefits... except sports men and women. Huntinghas gone the way of the european model whereas only the rich have primo hunting and fishing.
Outfitters have screwed it up for residents as well. It is all about $$$ now. The ranchers lock up millions of acres of public land access and then lease out to outfitters. Everybody benefits... except sports men and women. Huntinghas gone the way of the european model whereas only the rich have primo hunting and fishing.
No way is worth buying points as a NR to have a chance at up to 5% when the Outfitter bucket will take all the primo tags. A 3rd Choice Outfitter tag NR choice trumps a 1st choice by a NR not paying for a babysitter. Was it WY that screwed up the wolf compact? FFS, stop it WY, just stop it.
None of this is a surprise. Outfitter welfare has spread like a cancer all over the country when it comes to big game. Even out East where it took a bite out of my Maine moose points recently. But talk about flip flopping DIY opportunity, it eliminated me hunting New Mexico. Last year was my tenth consecutive not drawing my low demand archery unit. Can’t believe my last hunt there was in 2011. Was glad to exit the NR Oregon treadmill in 2020 and will never look back. They got the same 50% deal. Big bites in Utah & Nevada too. All I can say is I’m glad I like Midwest whitetail & walleye fishing as I get older. And thankful I drew so many great Western hunts back in my youth.
With just about everything else in life remaining so constant overtime the amount of change in hunting is just astounding we never could’ve seen this coming and it borders on the edge of criminality
What's even sadder is that Colo offers 20 to 30% of it's limited tags to nonres plus OTC elk. With 3/4 fewer nonres hunting Wyo you can bet that more hunters will come to Colo to hunt OTC elk. Colo can only support so many hunters. You can imagine Colo will follow Wyo's lead and cut nonres opportunity like every other Western state. It's really a shame if this happens in Wyo. Colo and Wyo are the only 2 Western states that offer nonres public DIY hunters opportunity. As I've been preaching all along, enjoy it now because our hunting heritage is headed for the dumps!
I just play by the rules dealt me over the years in many states I apply for my hunts.
If I don't like the new rules, I simply don't apply there anymore.
No doubt there is going to be some new type of Fee $tructure coming too.
Good luck, Robb
Just curious, what are the success rates for NR DIY vs guided hunts?
I cannot believe I am mentioning NM in a good way. But when the DIY hunter receives a proctology exam by Dr Big Hands, at least it is done without preference points.
Don’t worry about cost Jaq. They’ve got it figured out that a $3 stamp is going to cover all the lost revenue from non residents. Even if that were true I can’t wait for the HOWLING of the massive $3 increase oppression to the fine residents of Wyoming. NR just get ready for a 50-100% license quota cut and a doubling of the NR license cost. I have over 20 years invested into Wyoming and have been watching all the meetings with great interest. It is truly sad.
Greatest bait and switch of all time.
"With just about everything else in life remaining so constant overtime the amount of change in hunting is just astounding we never could’ve seen this coming and it borders on the edge of criminality"
Are you serious, Bou? You didn't see that the commercialization and capitalization of hunting was quickly ruining it? Good grief, I've been preaching it for years, as has others. Yet, we still have a large portion of hunters who support and defend outfitters...until they can't afford certain hunts anymore, then they whine and bemoan the circumstances that they helped to create.
Matt
It looks like a political play to me.
The Wyoming Welfare Wranglers Association comes up with the most outrageous proposal they can conceive. (Likely after partaking in a Boulder Snack shop). Once that proposal is shot down, that is the "Starting Point" in negotiations. Anything after that is a "compromise" and when they "meet in the middle", the WWWA (WYOGA) can say how they "gave so much". LOL!
Matt, Bou often tries to make his points with hyperbole and dripping with sarcasm. It is annoying but that’s his calling and his charm.
Steve, that's why I asked if he was serious. Sarcasm often doesn't translate well on internet posts, as you know.
Matt
The only answer I see is move to Wyoming.
Z Barebow has it right. We just took a huge jump in license and stamp cost here in Mass. They started talking about tripling the cost and 'settled' on nearly doubling it, phasing the increases over the next several years. I'll be getting my basic license free in two years when I turn 70, but the cost of archery, ML, bear, turkey etc. stamps will be double.
No surprise to me. I am just hoping this doesn't ruin draw odds for this year I'm trying to get off the bus. Sadly the end is nearing for the blue color NR hunter and the Res will be next. The thought of having to buy my way into hunting Fed land makes me puke in my mouth
WY is the only real conservative State left in the West. I will be very surprised if this passes. Or should I say, disappointed.
Jims - " Colo and Wyo are the only 2 Western states that offer nonres public DIY hunters opportunity."
??? Odd statement.
I think you know what I meant to say!
As I read it....it would be 90/10. Of that "10" for NR's.....5 goes to the outfitters and the remaining 5 to non-guided NR's. All 10% is still for NR's....just a 5% carve out for the outfitters. I suspect Randy N. will be talking about this if he hasn't already.
When I was doing my lope hunt in MT in October, I was talking to a rancher there who said he will never lease his place to the outfitters. He mentioned there are a few other like-minded ranchers out there too. He had family there hunting at the time, otherwise he was going to let me hunt his ranch. Sooo.....for creating new private access opportunities, there might be some wisdom out there in speaking with the ranchers you come across and plant some seeds of not leasing to outfitters or not renewing the lease arrangement. Some of course may like the lease money, but I think many ranchers are independent minded and some may just consider the seeds you planted and not want to be beholding to an outfitter. Just a thought....
This is what happens when the main hunting industry is made up of Instagram hunters.
The DIY guys are becoming a smaller and smaller group that are willing save spending money to guarantee success.
There is prob more support for this type thing than there is non support because of all the Instagram hunters wanting to pay someone to take them to an animal so they can post pics.
Take social media away and there’s be no reason for many to even hunt anymore as that’s all they in it for.
If I was a WY resident I wouldn't care about the 80/20 or 90/10 discussion as long as I could still get a general OTC. Even if you don't draw a LE tag you have great elk hunting at your fingertips.
However.... residents or nonresidents should all be ticked about more outfitter welfare.
I'd be curious how this will affect landowners that do not have an outfitters license for their land. Will WYGOA try to push for an outfitters license to get into that draw pool. As it stands now, landowners may outfit their lands, and lands they lease, with their family. You may well find some landowners against this proposal.
Why don't they just offer private land only tags? Wouldn't this solve the problem?
Sivart, I suggested that on public comment to the Task Force. We already have private land only tags an just adding some of those instead of set asides would work, imo. Maybe require landowner permission for those tags so you have to have access to apply.
The PLO tags are only for immediate family landowners, correct?
There are a few "PLO" tags for antelope a d deer in a couple areas that are almost entirely private lands. These tags are drawn same as any other tag but always leftovers. Don't confuse these tags with "Landowner Tags" which are issued directly to landowners for them and immediate family only and may not be transferred. I know these LO tags count against the quota available to the peasants. If you mean issue more LO tags to the Kings, cut off your tongue!
If you are a nonres that enjoys hunting Wyo take a look at the following chart. This is a list of most of the limited quota elk units in Wyo and the number of nonres special and regular tags available in 2021, with 90/10 reductions, and with 90/5/5 reductions. As you see there are hardly any nonres tags currently issued. With 90/10 there will be 50% fewer limited nonres tags. With 90/5/5 there will be 75% fewer nonguided nonres tags.
What becomes apparent in a hurry is how few limited tags are currently issued to nonres. Once nonres tags are segmented into random regular, random special, pref pt regular, and pref pt special there are almost 0 tags issued in any one of these pools with 90/5/5.
No, I was not talking about LO tags. Private land only tags are just that, valid for private land only but are allocated by WG&F in the draw.
Landowners can only get 2 licenses total for their property and those are available to immediate family but can not be transferred as you stated. One proposal was to allow transferrable LO tags but residents do not want that.
I would rather see areas that are mostly private offer some Private Land only licenses, maybe require landowner permission to apply. Outfitters would benefit from that without set asides. They would still be available to NR with private access that DIY hunt.
Outfitter set asides are not favorable to most residents.
Outfitter set asides are flat out wrong IMO. Not needed as well since most elk outfitters are fully booked anyway for years.
I know there are some private only antelope tags, but haven't noticed any elk ones. Where I elk hunt is just about all public though so I wouldn't have noticed
It's my understanding that 90/10 does not include elk and deer at this time.
Yes, at this point the only proposal is the "big 5"
Elk deer, and antelope could be added in a moment's notice. All it has to do is pass at one of the Task Force meetings. If you are a DIY nonres that enjoys hunting big game on your own I would make sure to voice your opinions before the next Task Force meeting.
The next Task Force meeting is a 2 day event in Casper on March 22 and 23. I'm certain elk, deer, and antelope will be debated at this meeting.
You boys that think it is only going to screw the sheep and moose non residents might want to spend some time watching the past meetings. They are all on YouTube.
Wyoming will be 90/10 or 90/5/5 for EVERYTHING before you can blink.
Haha. Chicken little is alive and well. The sky is falling the sky is falling.
First of all Going 90/10 for elk will not change the number of type one or “bull tags available to NR. It will shift tags away from the high demand units and add tags to the general pool.
Next it will not affect the majority of deer tags in the state as the regional general units for NR deer would stay the same. In fact It could lead to an increase tags in the regional general tags as more residents would be shifted to limited tags and fewer residents in the general.
It will hit lope the most, yet I don’t recall most on this thread being upset that the one shot gets 80 lope tags a year?
It will shift preference to residents for cow elk, doe lope, doe deer, but there is really no way to know at this time if odds will greatly change?
Lastly I have not ran into anyone outside the outfitters that believe we need an outfitter set aside. Hell I can’t hardly find anyone who even wants transferable landowner tags. Which would be the lowest hanging fruit. Allowing the landowners to sell the tags they already get would have no effect on the draw odds and that can’t even get traction because we as a state value our walk-in programs and the significant amount of public private partnerships.
Kinda thought Outfitters already got a pretty sweet deal with the Wilderness rules. Guessing these points would be brought up in meetings? Or maybe the Wilderness rules are an indicator of how much pull they actually have...... the general public is not where they need the pull, it's up the steps and inside behind closed doors it really matters.
Unless it pulls tags out of their pockets, residents aren't going for the tar and feathers over too much on the outfitter/NR landscape. They might shake their heads..... but not wring any necks.....
With 90/10 it will cut nonres limited tags in 1/2 requiring 2 x more years to draw. With 90/5/5 and set aside outfitter tags it would take 75% of current limited tags away from nonres DIY hunters.
Take a look at my chart above with 2021, 90/10, and 90/5/5 numbers. Yep the sky is definitely falling down for those nonres that enjoy hunting limited units for elk, deer, and antelope in Wyo!
When a large chunk of the Task Force members are affiliated with outfitters and landowners you know who will get screwed....DIY nonres hunters!
