Mathews Inc.
Why does it matter what others use
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
timex 31-Jan-22
JohnMC 31-Jan-22
LINK 31-Jan-22
smarba 31-Jan-22
cnelk 31-Jan-22
WI Shedhead 31-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 31-Jan-22
foxbo 31-Jan-22
timex 31-Jan-22
DanaC 31-Jan-22
JohnMC 31-Jan-22
Michael 31-Jan-22
Hancock West 31-Jan-22
JL 31-Jan-22
RT 31-Jan-22
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APauls 31-Jan-22
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From: timex
31-Jan-22
The air bow thread got me thinking.

Growing up I hunted all seasons. Bow, muzzloader, rifle.

Then I moved to an 800 acre farm & had full control of the hunting. Shooting deer with a gun just became effortless so I went compound only for several years.

Then I got the trad bow bug & went about 10 years trad bow only. During that time never ever did I give a damn what others hunted with.

I will admit that I got a special sense of accomplishment killing deer with a trad bow & especially during the gun season.

But again It was a personal choice

Now fast forward & im back to hunting with all weapons again & in my area the deer population & especially does is out of control.

Horn - trophy hunting is the biggest problem in my area. A freezer full of venison is just not important to most modern hunters in my area.

The x bow has had zero impact in my area. Perhaps other parts of the country it has.

WHY is it so important to some what others choose to hunt with. Myself personally could care less.

From: JohnMC
31-Jan-22
If you lived in the west you might look at it differently. In CO for example most elk hunting done on public land. You either hunter OTC that almost anyone would agree is overly crowded. The draw units are requiring more and more points to draw each year. So the issue if you were to allow crossguns or air guns into archery season those issue becomes much worse. So to answer your question I don’t care what someone uses. Crossguns are legal in CO during rifle season and I think that if anyone is using one there it is awesome. I do care if someone tries to add them to archery season.

From: LINK
31-Jan-22
Yep not everyone hunts the own private 800 acre parcel.

From: smarba
31-Jan-22
Agreed, it's not necessarily WHAT people use, it's in which particular season it is ALLOWED. While I agree picking up a bow these days is easier to become proficient than ever before, it's still WAY harder than X-Bow or Air-Bow. To allow those weapons during a typical bow season substantially increases the pool of potential hunters competing for a limited number of available tags.

I don't understand the mentality of wanting to use a different weapon during a particular season except to make it easier. We never hear "It's too hard for me to ram a muzzle loader...I should be allowed to use a rifle", but it's common to hear "it's too hard to pull a bow, I should be allowed to use some other alternate weapon that makes it easier".

So while it may not impact my success, changing the playing field for types of weapons DEFINITELY adversely impacts our ability to get a tag in the first place.

From: cnelk
31-Jan-22
I’m gonna use whatever I can that’s legal for that season. Bow / Rifle / ML / Xbow / Pellet gun - whatever gives me the best draw odds

I’m an Equal Opportunity Hunter.

From: WI Shedhead
31-Jan-22
It isn’t the weapon, who uses it, or to hunt what. It’s inclusion of xguns and all these other gimmicks into the regular archery seasons.

Timex- Your detached from reality if you have 800 acres to hunt on, but good for you. If you take average Joe that hunts public or small parcels (20-40 acres) in heavily pressured areas, too many people want an easy advantage over thier able bodied do-it -by -the book neighbors.

Too many in the hunting community go for the easy button when a little work and common sense is required. Just because in some circles you can smoke dope pay for sex and worst of all hunt a fence line doesn’t mean you should. So to answer your question Mano e Mano. Keep the crap in the gun season for the able bodied where it belongs

From: Grey Ghost
31-Jan-22
I grew up hunting with a rifle. I chose to switch to a bow because I wanted a greater hunting challenge. I realized I enjoyed hunting more than just killing, and bow hunting gave me far more days in the woods to enjoy hunting. I also realized killing with a bow gave me so much more satisfaction. I have no desire to go back to just killing.

But that's just me. I wish all hunters felt the same, but sadly I know that won't ever be the case. I'm resolved to accept the "if it's legal, go for it" attitude. But I will always try to sway that mindset.

Matt

From: foxbo
31-Jan-22
Hey Todd, I completely agree with you. I also live in Virginia. How bout some of that 800 acre action? :)

From: timex
31-Jan-22
I moved away from that farm in 2000. That was 22 years ago. The ten years I hunted trad bow only the biggest peice of land I had was 100 acres. It just doesn't matter to me. I could care less where you live what you drive what camo you like what weapon you hunt with I don't give a damn.

You could take it a step further & go over to the leather wall & some of the purest over there are absolutely delusional. Out of 1000 things that two different hunters have in common if one of the two's bow happens to have a wheel on the limb than that hunter may as well be the devil himself.

Perhaps im just an old mule with blinders on. But honestly I like not being in other folks business.

From: DanaC
31-Jan-22
"But honestly I like not being in other folks business. "

Honestly, when they allow half-assed crossbow shooters into the ARCHERY season, they're in MY 'business'. Even with the 'medical reasons' requirement here I see too many guys who never put in the time as BOW hunters suddenly getting crossbow permits and stumbling around in bow season. Sorry, nope.

From: JohnMC
31-Jan-22
Timex would your opinion change if before crossguns where legal in VA they said ok next year we are going to make crossguns legal during VA archery season but bowhunters are only going to get to hunt 2 out 3 seasons moving forward. Also you can only get a tag during either archery or rifle with very few exceptions.

From: Michael
31-Jan-22
When I started bow hunting in the late 80’s in the upper Midwest. I did it for 2 reasons. Not a lot of people were bow hunting. Making access to land easier then if you were a gun hunter. The other reason was the longer season to be in the woods.

I am not saying you can’t gain permission by knocking on doors. But it is nothing like when I was younger.

Throw in more weapons in the season that just adds more people using the land at the same time.

Call me greedy all you want. I can wear that badge if need be.

From: Hancock West
31-Jan-22
I agree with you timex. I like all the seasons including my scoped crossbow during ARCHERY SEASON. I could care less if people bait to. Let the haters hate. If your following the law its none of anyone elses business. Bad shots and wounded animals didnt come about because of the crossbow. People have been taking long shots wounding animals with compounds & trad for along time. I think the purist should avoid using camo, totally unfair. Food plots & deer stands gotta go, way too easy. Cover scents no way. Four wheelers, utvs, tractors completely unacceptable. Stick bow with wooden arrow wearing only bear skin is the acceptable method.

From: JL
31-Jan-22
Can't remember who it was at Tinks....but he said something like.....he liked hunting so much, if there was a rock-chunking season, he'd go get a tag.

From: RT
31-Jan-22
Luckily there are different seasons for method of take in Colorado, for now. Bad enough as it is with archery equipment.

From: Jegs.mi
31-Jan-22
The only question in my mind is why call it archery season if you allow non archery methods in the season? I don't think it is possible to argue what the airbow is archery. While many traditional archery shooters don't appreciate the crossbow it is a long established form of archery. If anything goes just call it open season and fill your tags.

From: APauls
31-Jan-22
Does it bother you if someone else says a man is a woman? I don't care what people hunt with, I just like calling a bow a bow and a gun a gun. And IF it's a gun then don't use it in BOW season. And if you're a man stick to men's sports!

31-Jan-22
Not fair to point at bowhunters and pretend they are the bad guy who wants to control others behavior.

Bowhunting is on defense. Crossbow advocates pushed and pushed to be allowed in bow season. How many crossbow hunters existed before they were allowed in bow seasons? There wasn't some giant population of disenfranchised crossbow hunters who hunted with crossbows and were looking to expand their opportunities. No one used them because generally they were only allowed during rifle season. They didn't want to go with the harder weapon.

People wanted an easier way to hunt during bow season. The results are in when it comes to Midwest states. Crossbow inclusion during bow season is the biggest threat to bowhunting there is. Nothing else has reduced bowhunting numbers as much.

I have no issue with crossbows, rifles, spears, catapults or howitzers. I think weapons are cool. That's not the point.

I want bowhunting to thrive.

From: Ollie
31-Jan-22
If you want to hunt during archery season, use a hand held, hand released bow. If you don’t want to do this, then hunt during gun season.

From: Rgiesey
31-Jan-22
It matters! Bow seasons were made for bows

From: SB
31-Jan-22
Bingo ! Archery season was supposed to be for archery tackle. If it has a stock and a trigger there is already a season for that...it's called GUN season! Now over half of what WAS our archery season is some niche groups gun season!

01-Feb-22
Sad to see the bow and arrow season gone in so many states.

From: Bowbender
01-Feb-22
Just my thoughts...that and $5 will get you a shitty cup of coffee at Starbucks.

I keep hearing that there no is distinction between xbows and compounds. Remember the last time you nestled the butt stock of your compound into your shoulder, fingers wrapped around the pistol grip of the AR style stock, the forearm fully supported on a stable rest, peer thru the 4X power scope with the illuminated reticle and the range (73.5 yds) already set from the bluetooth rangefinder, flip the safety off, and squeeze the trigger. Ya, me neither.

Go to the Hunting Pennsylvania Facebook page. You would be hard pressed to find archery kills with compounds or sticks. In PA our numbers went from roughly 275,000 hunters in 2009 to 375,000 current year. I would venture a guess that the vast majority were attracted to archery, not because of the challenge, but the ease of becoming a bowhunter. At sixty years old, I still shoot 10 months out of the year, my bow is not a "set and forget" piece of equipment. I started bowhunting in 1980 because of the challenge, not the ease of buying a package and becoming an instant bowhunter.

Back in the late 70's, early 80's, I wanted to race superbikes. I found out I didn't have the dedication or determination to up my game and be competitive. I didn't ask or demand the governing authorities make it easier.

Never wish it was easier. Never. Wish you were better.

01-Feb-22
Scoped crossbow hunters are not bowhunters, they are scoped crossbow hunters. In reality, your current bow hunters likely declined from 2009.

From: JL
01-Feb-22

JL's Link
Related to my earlier post about it shouldn't matter what weapon you use to hunt. The guy associated with Tinks I was thinking about was who made the rock throwing season comment was Ben Lee. Here is a old interview with Tink Nathan. Interesting guy.....

From: drycreek
01-Feb-22
In the great state of Tejas, bowhunters have October to themselves, this is everything from a Black Widow to a Ravin. (If the state says it’s a bow, then it’s a bow) They also get to hunt the general season from the first Saturday in November until the first Sunday in January. They don’t get to hunt the muzzleloader season but if your county has the extended doe and spike season they get to hunt that also.

So…..from the first Saturday in October until the middle of January. Seems like the bow hunters have the best of it.

01-Feb-22
Where scoped crossbows and bolts are allowed for all, bow and arrow hunter numbers will continue the decline.

From: stealthycat
01-Feb-22
it would matter if/when seasons and bag limits are impacts

01-Feb-22
Technology has already impacted opportunity, in the form of limited drawings, quota seasons, point creep, APR's, minimum size, etc. You do not see it so much with whitetail deer, but some of us have expanded our horizons.

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
It amazes me that people who live in states where you get multiple deer tags every season, and can hunt for months think it is OK to allow every other weapon in archery season in other states. Here in Colorado, I have 2 deer preference points and may not draw an archery tag in the GMU in which I live. Keep your crossguns and airguns in your own state. Good luck with your unlimited whitetail and tags.

01-Feb-22
Around here it is called, " box blind mentality " or, " whitetail mentality ".

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
In the Virginia regs, I see you can kill 6 deer a year, 3 antlered, in some areas, and unlimited deer in other areas. No shit you don't care what other people use to kill them with. I get to hunt once every 4 or 5 years and kill one deer on my 40 acre property. You bet I care what others use in archery season.

From: Hancock West
01-Feb-22
Why wouldn't your state reduce the amount of tags per hunter and allow more hunters to have tags? I don't think that has anything to do with crossbows. Not all crossbow hunters shoot 90yards just like not all compound bow hunters shoot 60yards.

01-Feb-22
Deer tags are almost unlimited in parts of Michigan, 2 bucks, lots of doe permits. Very few real bow and arrow hunters left around here, most use scoped and cocked crossbows. Our bow and arrow and primitive black powder seasons are history. Scoped In lines and scoped crossbows are by far the norm.

From: pav
01-Feb-22
Every one of these weapons additions is a threat to the future of archery seasons. If you don't see that...please take off the freaking blinders!!!

Here in Indiana, we opened the door for crossbows with a disability permit. That turned into crossbows in the late archery season. Opened the door for crossbows across all archery seasons. Took seven years for the crossbow harvest in this state to eclipse the archery harvest. Bowhunting is absolutely on the decline here. Since that change, we have been fending off air guns and muzzleloaders in the archery seasons. Bottom line, give an inch and they will eventually take a mile. Won't surprise me at all if future hunting seasons become non-weapons specific at some point. I don't want to see that happen.

I don't care what anyone hunts with..as long as it is legal. I do care about WHEN they are allowed to hunt with their weapon of choice.

As for the crossbow "same as" compound BS....I can tell you my first and only three shots with a scoped crossbow hit a 2" bullseye at 35 yards. Been bowhunting with a compound for 40+ years and hitting a 2" bullseye at 35 yards once out of three shots has never been a given for me. Not at all the same weapon...not even close!

01-Feb-22
^^^ agree.

From: Bowbender
01-Feb-22
pav is spot on. Here in PA we also have one week of rifle, oops, I mean scoped in-line muzzle loader, the third week of October. They are basically a single shot rifle. I have a CVA in-line I bought in 2003 for our special regs area. It will shoot 1-1/2 groups all day at 100 yards. Every year there is a concerted push to allow them in our after Christmas Flintlock season. The reason they want included? Well it's a muzzleloader. Same sierra bravo with the 500fps, scoped, tripod mounted xbow.

From: timex
01-Feb-22

timex's embedded Photo
The best place I have to kill a big buck where I live. On the coast of VA
timex's embedded Photo
The best place I have to kill a big buck where I live. On the coast of VA
Here's a great example of how I could care less what others hunt with & in fact when va legalized x bows I just used the x bow hunters to my advantage.

In the middle of this pic is the rectangle tract with the blond colored field it runs west to east followed by another tract that borders the saltwater marsh labeled John Floyd.

When I moved here this was the first place I got permission to hunt. It's less than 100 acres & I had it to myself during bow season. There is a father & his 2 sons that gun hunt threr.

Sometime around 2005 when va legalized the x bow the first morning of bow season I get there & 2 pickups in the field......... well DAMN....... I backed out of the field drove down the road to the north of the property parked & came in the east side of the property along the marsh. It's the last time I ever hunted the field. Is it harder & more work ...yes... but worth it. The x bow hunters push the deer back to me.

Again I just don't care. They've got permission to be there just like myself & whatever the choose to hunt with is none of my business.

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
Timex, you don't get it. Come out to Colorado and bow hunt mule deer with me on my property. See you in about 10 years, it will take you that long to draw a tag. Oh, allow crossbows and air bows in out archery season because you don't care what others use? See you in 30 years, if I'm still alive.

From: ELKMAN
01-Feb-22
It absolutely doesn't matter "what others use" so long as it's legal. (Legal does not = ethical) But it also doesn't matter if people choose to judge them or hold them accountable for their decision and the impact it has on our way of life.

From: deerhunter72
01-Feb-22
I'm with timex, I couldn't care less what anyone else does as long as they follow the laws of the state they're hunting. It's the same old story and we are our own worst enemies. Now people hate crossbows, when compounds came out people hated them. It will never end. Like Hancock said above, if you're truly a purist then you shouldn't use camo, elevated stands, food plots, camera's, ebikes, and especially foot plots. All of those things give you an unfair advantage and eliminate fair chase. Unless you're sitting on a stump with a stick bow that you made using arrows and a stone broadhead that you made then someone can come along and say that you are creating an advantage for yourself. It's the old glass house thing, be careful of what you criticize unless you want someone looking at what you're doing. Those are my thoughts.

From: HDE
01-Feb-22
"WHY is it so important to some what others choose to hunt with."

Because they take this crap too serious. They don't focus on the preservation of the activity (hunting) itself because it's always been there. It's more about the nostalgia, romanticism, and "feel good feeling" of the experience rather than doing it for what it's primary purpose is: Game (herd) Management...

01-Feb-22
Most could see our current state of affairs coming. I lost some nice ,expansive property as bow hunting grew in popularity.

Pulled the trigger on a small parcel, 120 acres, and the best part of that is I don’t care what anyone else thinks now.

Encourage you all to do the same, no matter the sacrifice or who you do it with. We will never change the behaviors of others so find a way to control where you hunt.

I do miss hunting bigger acreage, but the trade-off has been worth it. Best wishes!

From: LBshooter
01-Feb-22
Here we go again, a bunch of guys who use high tech compguns with a trigger release, high tech sight,stabilizers, upto 80 percent let off of weight and on and on. Guys with these compguns are shooting out to 100 hundred yards and taking game at much further distances then a traditional bow could. Complaining about technology with other weapons is a bit rich. Is it your worried about others shooting game and you eating your tag? Is it that your worried that to many hunters are going to invade your public land spot? If your good hunters you'll find a spot/way to bring home the meat. If not, then your ego will have to take the hit and I'm sure you'll survive. I hunt very crowded Illinois public and lots of guys shooting xbows, and a few guys I see out there on a regular basis use xbows and zeroed this year. Worry about you and what you do, and let others do what they do, after all this is the land of the free, yes? If it is legal to use then Live with it, your not going to stop the politics of it. It's sort of like the guys who bitched at the original poster about hunting 800 acres, jealously shows it ugly head in many ways.

From: Bob H in NH
01-Feb-22
to me it's a wildlife management problem and should be looked at it like that.

Any change to include a new weapon type WILL have an effect, I really don't care if crossbows are included in bow season IF the biologists examine the change and the herd can handle it.

What I don't like is people trying to force a redefinition of a weapon to get it into an existing season. To me a cross bow isn't a bow, but it isn't a gun. If you want a crossbow season, fine, wildlife biologists should be making the determination that it can run parallel with bow season, or not, use the same tag, or not, and as long as it's made with the best interest of the herd, go for it.

Yes I know that draws a funny line, is an inline muzzleloader with scope, that can shoot 200 yards, really belong in primitive/muzzlerloader season? Does a crossbow, heck even a compound, belong in the same season as traditional bow?

01-Feb-22
I'm guessing all agree there is a technology line that matters. We just disagree on where to draw it. For me, the line for bow seasons was bows.

From: Jaquomo
01-Feb-22
Simple math. In western states, most archery tags are limited for nonresidents. Many for residents, too. In CO it is all draw for deer, and only one deer per season (for those lucky enough to draw)..

If you double the number of applicants by allowing crossbows in, that reduces opportunity for bowhunters by a corresponding amount.

I really don't care what someone hunts with as long as it is in the season allotted FOR THAT WEAPON. But when they want to barge into my archery season because it is longer and gives them more opportunity, and are now competing for MY archery tag and my slice of the available hunting land, that's when the gloves come

Selfish? Hell yes.

From: pav
01-Feb-22
Double the applications by allowing crossbows? Think bigger Lou!

01-Feb-22
At one time, it was all about the animals, and the health of the herds, habitat, and at one time record books were about honoring the animal..... Now its all about "ME" in many respects.............................. We are never going back to them days, and like weapon choice, it is not for me to dictate, what you use, but use it legally and ethically, and leave every space you have been too, a little bit better than before

01-Feb-22
Is there a universal meaning of "ethically"?

From: Driver
01-Feb-22
The well financed crossgun lobby is at it again in SD. We've made several concessions in the past by allowing them in rifle season and lowering the minimum bow poundage to 30#. Now they're trying to get crossguns approved in archery season for us old farts over 65. If they want/need to use a crossgun they can get a free form from gf&p and have their dr sign it. I can name dozens of old guys here who use 50 to 60# bows every year and don't need this handicap weapon. We have a very long archery season with otc tags but if they get these into archery season it will dramatically increase harvest and almost force gf&p to shorten seasons/limit tags.

From: Live2Hunt
01-Feb-22
Any of you who care about a healthy deer herd with adult buck populations that are able to breed had better give thought to "I don't care what others use and will use what is ever legal". Archery seasons were allowed in the timeframe they are because of the limited success compared to gun type weapons. The dumbest thing that happens to a deer herd is allowing gun weapons during the breeding season of animals if you want a healthy herd. You that have private lands, it doesn't matter to you does it as long as you get your kill. Well, there are thousands of acres of public land that is getting over hunted with gun weapons for the adult bucks and I am seeing the effect of this in Wisconsin big time. Never should have happened and our DNR is week as far as deer conservation. Anyone from other states thinking of coming here and hunting public forest property's in the Northern half of the state, don't do it. It is absolutely terrible for for deer hunting, there just isn't a huntable population anymore. The wolves make it impossible to rebuild a herd and the xgunners overrunning the forests taking out the breeding bucks during the most vulnerable time in their lives, plus a lot are taken the first 2 weeks of the season. The xguns have been full inclusion here for 6 years and you can see the effects of it now. They need to get these things out of the rut and the first 2 weeks of the season here, and the wolves need to be thinned out big time. Will it happen? Doubt it, our DNR has gotten almost anti-hunting. It will be kill them where they need thinning and the rest of the state (Public Land) will be off limits.

From: LBshooter
01-Feb-22
Yep , the era of me me me is here to stay. Remember public land is for all, the animals on public land are for all and for individuals to think its about them is sad.

In Illinois it's no longer about a mature herd, it's the direct opposite. The goal of the DNR is to lower the overall age of the deer herd, younger is better. It all has to do with CWD and they will shoot until they get to their number. That was told to me by one of the biologists so the public lands in Illinois are goi g to e tougher to hunt then in the past 10 years. The good ole days of seeing plenty of deer are over, at least where I'm hunting in the north.

From: LBshooter
01-Feb-22
Here we go again, a bunch of guys who use high tech compguns with a trigger release, high tech sight,stabilizers, upto 80 percent let off of weight and on and on. Guys with these compguns are shooting out to 100 hundred yards and taking game at much further distances then a traditional bow could. Complaining about technology with other weapons is a bit rich. Is it your worried about others shooting game and you eating your tag? Is it that your worried that to many hunters are going to invade your public land spot? If your good hunters you'll find a spot/way to bring home the meat. If not, then your ego will have to take the hit and I'm sure you'll survive. I hunt very crowded Illinois public and lots of guys shooting xbows, and a few guys I see out there on a regular basis use xbows and zeroed this year. Worry about you and what you do, and let others do what they do, after all this is the land of the free, yes? If it is legal to use then Live with it, your not going to stop the politics of it. It's sort of like the guys who bitched at the original poster about hunting 800 acres, jealously shows it ugly head in many ways.

01-Feb-22
Well, why have separate seasons then?

From: DanaC
01-Feb-22
Maine just increased crossbow access to archery deer season, did it with a 'sunset' provision.Three years, then re-evaluate.

From: Live2Hunt
01-Feb-22
Well, I use a recurve, don't care if I tag out, don't care about compound shooters because most shoot normal ranges and have to still draw/anchor/release at the shot. I do care about healthy deer herds and the ability to get into deer sign. I hunt a lot of square miles of forest in 4 counties in WI. Last year I came across 3 locations that I could say there was an adult buck around. Most had little to no DEER sign.

From: StickFlicker
01-Feb-22
I can't help but notice that almost without exception, those making comments above saying we shouldn't care what others hunt with are all from areas with nearly unlimited whitetails. The OP was originally commenting about the AZ airbow thread posted. The plea to disallow airbows was referring to the state of Arizona. In the OP's state of Virginia, a tiny state compared to AZ, hunters killed more than 208,000 deer last year. According to G&F estimates, AZ doesn't even HAVE 208,000 deer! When every hunter is guaranteed multiple tags each and every year, it's easy to have a "live and let live" opinion and criticize those who live in states that don't have those opportunities. Arizona's hunters (all weapon types) only kill about 13,000 deer per year in a much larger state with a much larger population. Each and every permit offered in the drawing is over-subscribed by applicants by many, many folds. Archery success has historically been 3-4% statewide, and it still takes more than 15 years to draw a tag in the best deer areas for a RESIDENT (that used to be OTC)! Doe hunting by adults has not been allowed for probably more than 30 years. The few remaining areas where a bowhunter could buy a tag are scheduled to be gone soon due to increased bowhunter success rates, and they continue to allow cross bows, airbows etc. in the archery seasons which assumedly is further increasing the "archery" hunt success. It's pretty easy for those in states overrun with whitetails, who get to hunt every year, often numerous deer per year, to say that we westerners are "greedy...and only think of me, me, me". Let me know if you feel the same when you have to wait years between hunts because your previous archery season that had unlimited permits (because bowhunters only had 3% success) changes to only the occasional permit because it was deemed by the G&F department that "archers" are now killing too many deer (after that same department allowed so many crossbow and airbow permits to move into your hunt). Sit home with no hunting permits at all for a few years, and then you can talk. You guys just have no perspective at all what it's like to be a hunter in the west with highly limited hunting opportunities and far, far more hunters than there are animals to hunt.

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
"Is it that your worried that to many hunters are going to invade your public land spot?" No, I'm worried about waiting even more years to draw a tag. We don't just go buy multiple tags every year. We apply and maybe draw after 3 or so years.

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
Well said stickflicker. You guys who get unlimited deer tags every year, read what stickflicker said again. Read it again, real slow.

From: Jegs.mi
01-Feb-22
I hunt with a group of family members on public land. In our camp you will find all currently legal forms of archery in Michigan. I care more about the people I hunt with than there choice of weapon. I am more successful with my longbow than family members who use a Xbox. I didn't vote for xbows in archery but they are legal. The air bow..... no way.

From: Jegs.mi
01-Feb-22
As 4nolz always says, all hunting like politics is regional.

From: Habitat
01-Feb-22
There are some states that track xgun use VS vertical bow and the xguns are killing double the number of deer that a vertical bow is already.

From: Hancock West
01-Feb-22
StickFlinger I agree with alot of what you've said especially only being able to draw every few years must be disappointing. I do think at some point you have to blame the state for poor tag allotment. Should AZ offer less non-res tags? I would be upset if my state gave out more non-res tag and cut locals out. Some Midwest states do have a lot of deer but they don't have the opportunity to go after sheep, pronghorn, elk, bear or Mule Deer like most western states.

From: StickFlicker
01-Feb-22
Hancock, there is certainly something to be said for having species other than whitetails in a western state. However, it takes years and years even for a resident to draw them, so that hardly replaces the chance to at least get to hunt one species (deer) a year. My last archery pronghorn tag took something like 13 years to draw, my last archery elk took 10 years, my only sheep tag took 33 years to draw, and although I got wildly lucky drawing a premium archery deer tag two years ago, my tag prior to that one took me 16 bonus points to draw. We only kill about 200-250 bears a year in our state, and it's almost exclusively rifle hunting.

It's easy to hunt 4-5 deer a year in your midwestern state, each and EVERY year, and then tell us how we only think of ourselves when all we want is the opportunity to hunt 1 deer a year in our own state! As far as the G&F doing poor tag allotment, it's hard to say what is proper tag allotment when our state can only afford for hunters to kill 12,000-13,000 deer (Coues and Mule Deer Combined) per year and we have 7.3 Million people in our state. And thanks to our G&F Department paying tens of thousands of dollars to TV Show and Social Media Hunting Influencers, record numbers of non-residents are now competing with us for those few tags. Fawn recruitment is terrible after decades of drought. The G&F can only do so much (even though they did help make the problem).

From: Hancock West
01-Feb-22
hopefully they can get it figured out one way or another. Congrats on one heck of a nice muley in 2020. wow thats a dandy buck.

From: deerhunter72
01-Feb-22
Stickflicker, I agree that I have no perspective on what it's like to live and hunt in the West with fewer tags but many, many more species of game. Likewise, maybe you have no idea what it's like to live and hunt in the east or midwest. In Illinois we have plenty of deer, some would now say not enough, but that's about it. The OP asked why people care what other hunters chose to hunt with. Maybe your lack of ability to draw tags based on state rules influences your views. If so, why is that a weapon of choice matter instead of a hunter pushback on the rules themselves. As I said above, if it's legal then it's none of my business.

01-Feb-22
Habitat,

What portion of the increase in Xbow harvests is due to demographics, aging hunter base needing to switch over?

I agree each state is different. Western state challenges are much different than where I hunt, including limited species for me.

From: keepemsharp
01-Feb-22
Basically Frank: it is not a bow, got a stock, got a trigger, got a scope, and maybe yardage figure. You carry it around cocked and loaded. With now maybe more than one round.

From: TonyBear
01-Feb-22
Having shot about every weapon out there in their respective seasons (including crossbow while temporarily disabled ), I am even more adamant about keeping crossbows out of the archery season.

Call me any name you want but the fact is for a tradional archer and just about any compound shooter who is honest you need to have game in close range while completing your draw and release. That is the deciding factor, being drawn, held and released under your own power. Just about anything else if you are physically capable belongs in the firearms season. This is because the archery seasons were created and structured around the principle I described above. Get rid of that principle and you don't need a separate, longer season. With what is happening in the states where crossbow harvest now exceeds hand held, hand drawn bow harvests just watch what will happen to the archery season. So much for tradition, fellowship and all the other reasons one would choose to hunt with a bow.

If you want to lengthen the firearms season, shorten the bow season or just put them all in one basket that is a matter for legislative debate. That is what will divide hunters into the respective ranks but one doesn't get thrown under the bus (e.g. hand-held archery equipment)in the name of unity for all hunters(e.g the cross bow air bow lobby).

Try that when it comes to fishing see how far you get (e.g any method of take at any time).

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
Maybe your lack of ability to draw tags based on state rules influences your views. If so, why is that a weapon of choice matter instead of a hunter pushback on the rules themselves." Georgia has 1.2 million deer. Arkansas 1.1 million, Illinois 850,000, According to Colorado Parks & Wildlife (CPW), the state’s current mule deer population of around 450,000 is about 25% below their objective.

From: StickFlicker
01-Feb-22
"The OP asked why people care what other hunters chose to hunt with. Maybe your lack of ability to draw tags based on state rules influences your views. If so, why is that a weapon of choice matter instead of a hunter pushback on the rules themselves."

I guess I don't really understand your last sentence? The post regarding airbows, the inspiration for this thread being posted, WAS requesting that bowhunters push back on the rules themselves.

You are completely correct. I don't know what it's like to be a hunter in the midwest or east. I'm sure having virtually unlimited permits has its great downsides as well, but at least you GET TO HUNT. And for now, we are discussing why we don't want to see crossbows and airbows in our AZ archery seasons (and the same applies to many western states). I'm fine if they are legal weapons, they can even have their own seasons or get merged into the gun season. We are just pushing back about their being included in the archery season. And as simply as possible, here's why: If Arizona can only afford to kill 13,000 deer per year, statewide, and the G&F Dept. says that nor more than 20 percent of the total killed can be with archery (which they do, and don't even get me started on why THIS is a thing!), that means archers can only take 2,600 deer statewide per year. If we exceed that, they shorten our archery seasons and they cut the bowhunting permit numbers to bring the harvest under 2,600 (not the exact number). They are doing both currently. Now, you ask why high success weapons like crossbows and airbows being included on archery hunts is a bad thing? As more and more are added, the 2,600 gets reached faster, so they allow fewer permits and they shorten the seasons each and every year. Adding those weapons to archery seasons in whitetail states probably doesn't do much except add to crowding. But you still get to hunt. Adding them in a state like AZ causes us to wait longer and longer and longer between years we are allowed to hunt.

It's really pretty simple, I think.

From: StickFlicker
01-Feb-22
Thank you Hancock. I was very fortunate to take him. But, you must not have seen the 2017 buck. It's more than 40 inches larger.

From: timex
01-Feb-22
Stickflicker..... very well said & educational. As iv never hunted further west than PA.

Now that being said you put words in my mouth that I absolutely did not say such as Greedy & me me me.

Ya got just a little carried away making a good point.

You live where you live & visa versa. I'm content living on the VA coast where whitetail is the only big game animal to hunt in fact where I am there's not even pigs or bears. The trade off for me is I get to offshore fish all summer long. Yes absolutely I can buy all the doe tags I want @ $18.00 for 6 tags.

But on the other hand I can guarantee ya I ll never kill a mule deer, antelope, grizz, elk , ram, goat , sheep, moose, etc in va. And you'll never catch a marlin in the desert. Deal with it brother. You live where you live & myself as well.

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
Do you guys really not understand that we don't have an unlimited amount of deer to kill? Do you really not understand that because we have a very limited number of deer, we can't push back for unlimited tags? Do you really not understand we don't get a deer, elk, goat, sheep and moose tag handed to us every year? Do you really not understand letting more weapons into archery season equals more hunters applying for the same low number of limited tags, meaning we get a tag less often? Really?

01-Feb-22
Dave, PM sent.

From: timex
01-Feb-22
Ok Peco2..... so you expecting the entire eastern half of the country to do exactly what because the western half has less deer.

From: deerhunter72
01-Feb-22
Again, I have to agree with timex. You live where you live and if you want to hunt you have to abide by the rules where you are. We all have the option to relocate. I would call it silly for me to move out west so I can hunt mule deer, maybe others wouldn’t.

Stickflicker, that was a very well thought out post and I see your point. Maybe there’s not a thing hunters can do to get crossbows banned in Arizona. I don’t have a clue.

PECO, I perfectly understand what you’re saying. You used the word “we” 5 times in your last post. But it read as “me”, meaning YOU will have less opportunity to draw if other hunters using legal equipment, but not equipment you deem worthy, apply for tags. I understand your plight.

01-Feb-22
Bow and arrow hunters are becoming few and far between in the east. For most, getting a rutting deer is now very, very easy. Archery hunting accomplishments are very diminished.

01-Feb-22
"You live where you live and if you want to hunt you have to abide by the rules where you are."

Thats sorta the point. Bowhunters were doing that for the most part. Crossbow advocates didn't like the idea of doing that so they just changed the rules.

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
Timex, I expect you to understand that letting crossbows and airguns into the archery season will have an effect on the hunters who live in states with low deer populations. I'm not bitching about living here and playing by the rules. I'm bitching about people who don't live here trying to change the rules because they don't understand and think it won't matter. It does matter.

From: PECO2
01-Feb-22
deerhunter72, I use the word "we" because "I" am not the only bow hunter in the west.

From: Mule Power
01-Feb-22
I have always hunted with all weapons. For different reasons. Late season shotgun hunting is family time with young hunters. Actually I don’t even bring a gun sometimes.

The only time I would ever shake my head at a hunters choice of setups is if it’s too light for the animal they want to hunt. For example elk hunting like the old days with overdraws and short skinny arrows. In my opinion you need some weight behind an arrow. Same goes for the tiny caliber guns that are all the rage.

But I don’t judge or belittle a guy for that. Instead I just tell him my thoughts on what I consider to be a more effective and ethical choice.

From: Hancock West
01-Feb-22
If trad & compound bow hunters want to keep archery seasons strictly to these two options only then they need to unite together in large numbers and lobby the government agencies about the hazards of what it can cause. I know thats not easy but youll have more success doing that than bitching on this forum. Ask for donations from compound bow manufacturers that dont make crossbows, call your state senators, representatives & your dnr agencies. Government moves only in its own interests unless people in large numbers force change .

From: deerhunter72
01-Feb-22
PECO, I’ll be a little more direct-you sound selfish. But I don’t really care either way. I do see your point, but Hancock is spot on- griping on here to other hunters gets you nowhere, plus it only makes us all look bad. Contact the people in your state who have the power to make the changes you’d like to take place.

01-Feb-22
Seems to be a lot of scoped crossbow lovers here.

From: Jegs.mi
01-Feb-22
I hope you western hunter's can keep the bow in bow season it would drive me crazy not being able to get a tag in my own state.

01-Feb-22
“ WHY is it so important to some what others choose to hunt with. Myself personally could care less.”

Hell, man…. If I had control of 800 acres, I’d be THRILLED to see cross-bow and compound shooters multiplying like Wabbits and pushing animals off of Public and into my little patch o’ heaven. There’s a guy down-river with 300-400 Elk stacked up on his toy “Ranch” who probably LOVES intensive archery season pressure.

Same thing out East. Guys who put out bait on private land have nothing but up-side when Public pressure ramps up.

Blows my mind that people who stand to do nothing but gain from high Public-land pressure are so self-absorbed as to pretend that it’s All Good to promote policies which benefit themselves while shafting Public hunters…..

Maybe Pat should instate a rule that no post will be tolerated if the premise of it is that What’s Good For Me is Good For Everyone…. Especially If Everyone Else Takes It In The Eye.

From: LBshooter
02-Feb-22
"Do you guys really not understand that we don't have an unlimited amount of deer to kill? Do you really not understand that because we have a very limited number of deer, we can't push back for unlimited tags? Do you really not understand we don't get a deer, elk, goat, sheep and moose tag handed to us every year? Do you really not understand letting more weapons into archery season equals more hunters applying for the same low number of limited tags, meaning we get a tag less often? Really?"

Yes Peco we or I understand this. So you want to stop hunters the ability to draw a tag so that you can draw more often? Seriously? You live in a state that runs their game department a certain way, and you agree to play by those rules. If you don't like the rules then plan out of state hunts or maybe think anout moving? It's laughable that you want others to suffer so you don't have to. Lol

From: timex
02-Feb-22
Corax .....you probably should read all the posts before spewing off on the keyboard.

That 800 acre farm I lived on was from 1997 to 2000 I only brought it up cause it's when I quit gun hunting for deer. From there I went from compound to trad bow only till my heart attack in 2010 then I went back to compound then when I acquired the plant nursery the numbers of deer they expect me to kill is just unrealistic with bows only so now I'm back to gun hunting.

The largest place I currently hunt is a 200 & something acre plant nursery & the majority of that is greenhouses. The only huntable land is the surrounding creek bottoms.

This thread has definitely shed some light on the subject. In the east there's an overpopulation of deer in the west there's an overpopulation of hunters. Or so it seams.

Now on the other hand western states have multiple big game species to pursue compared to the eastern states deer black bear & hogs to the south.

02-Feb-22
The real fact of the matter is there are many scoped crossbow users, enablers, and enthusiasts right here on this forum. They consider themselves "bowhunters" and are looking for acceptance from the rest of the bow and arrow hunting community. Bow and arrow use for hunting is on the decline, scoped crossbows are enjoying steady growth, especially in the eastern woods, and now some areas west of the Mississippi. In most of the east, scoped crossbow hunters are the majority during archery seasons, and steadily increasing. Do not think only real bow and arrow hunters hang out here. Scoped crossbow users now consider themselves actual bow hunters, with no bows, or arrows.

From: PECO2
02-Feb-22
You guys nailed it. I live in Colorado and agree to the rules we have. Some of you want to change the rules, and I'm the selfish one? Now that's laughable.

From: Hancock West
02-Feb-22
For the record, I never advocated for the change but i do slightly benefit from the crossbow addition to archery. I don't shoot over 40yards with my compound or crossbow. Actually, I think the compound bow is more forgiving in the heat of the moment if you pull in the least bit due to nerves. The crossbow is heavier, less sturdy & with the slightest movement can make the bolt completely miss its mark.

From: deerhunter72
02-Feb-22
This topic has been beat to death and it's pointless but I'll throw out one more thing. I will never understand why some hunters, sportsmen, outdoorsmen etc. will try to define what makes someone else a hunter solely based on what type of bow that hunter uses. What if a guy uses a stick bow, recurve, compound AND a crossbow all in the same season? I guess the crossbow disqualifies him as a hunter? All is fair until someone comes along and puts a label on some you elitists.

From: Live2Hunt
02-Feb-22
Deerhunter, guys that think like you had better wake up and see what it does to the resources when these weapons are used at very vulnerable time in an animals life.

02-Feb-22
Scoped crossbow and bolt users are indeed hunters, however when using such they are not bowhunters, or going bowhunting. To become a bowhunter, and be bowhunting, one needs a bow, and an arrow. No need to lie to the wife, kids, and friends.

Similarly, an animal killed with a scoped crossbow and bolt is NOT a bow kill, nor was it killed while bowhunting. It is a scoped crossbow and bolt kill, killed with scoped crossbow and bolt, while scoped crossbow and bolt hunting.

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-22
^^^ this.

Hand drawn and held bow shooters are "bowhunters". Muzzleloader shooters are muzzleloader hunters. Rifle shooters are rifle hunters.

Personally I see no reason why states on the East coast with deer overpopulation don't simply have a "deer season" with all weapons allowed at the same time. No "archery", no "crossbow", no "gun", no discrimination . Just "hunting season" like back in the good old days.

I will never hunt there, so I'm perfectly fine with that concept. That makes all hunters equal. Kumbaya. See what I did there?

From: deerhunter72
02-Feb-22
As I said, elitist branding. I don't care what anyone calls me, makes no difference as long as I'm following the laws. Traditional guys said that compound bows would ruin deer hunting and it didn't happen. Now, compound guys are saying that crossbows will ruin deer hunting. So far, not true, at least in Illinois. I just can't get over that a compound shooter will look down his nose at anyone else. Look at all of the technology built into these things. Hello pot, this is kettle.

02-Feb-22
The scoped and cocked crossbow will not ruin deer hunting in the east. Due to the deadly scoped and cocked crossbow increased use during the rut, buck age and size structures likely will become further challenged. However, in many, if not most areas, there are already deer populations far exceeding management objectives. There will be plenty deer to hunt, especially on private domains. The big woods and public lands are another story.

What has already happened is, the scoped and cocked crossbows have had a serious impact on the number of bow and arrow hunters, and the associated culture surrounding the unique challenges of bow and arrow hunting. Avid bow and arrow hunter numbers are rapidly declining.

As mentioned, at this point in the east, there really is no need for multiple deer seasons. May as well have one season and use whatever weapon you choose to fill your tags. We may be heading in that direction.

From: timex
02-Feb-22
Va always had a bow muzzloader & gun season. Or at least from the mid 70s. It was 7.50 hunt license & 7.50 big game tags. Later they added bonus doe tags then a separate fee for each season. Now its 22 hunt 22 tags and 18 for each different weapon used and 18 extra doe tags. See what they did there !!!

From: xtroutx
02-Feb-22
"Scoped crossbow and bolt users are indeed hunters, however when using such they are not bowhunters, or going bowhunting. To become a bowhunter, and be bowhunting, one needs a bow, and an arrow. No need to lie to the wife, kids, and friends." Similarly, an animal killed with a scoped crossbow and bolt is NOT a bow kill, nor was it killed while bowhunting. It is a scoped crossbow and bolt kill, killed with scoped crossbow and bolt, while scoped crossbow and bolt hunting. Well said Missouri. I don't understand why crossbow uses still call what they do bow hunting. Deer hunters yes. bow hunters no!

From: PECO2
02-Feb-22
It has already been stated that many compound bow shooters are hanging up their bows and buying scoped crossguns. Compound bow hunters aren't looking down on crossgun hunters, they are the crossgun hunters.

From: Don
02-Feb-22
It matters because the only reason there is a bow season is because they’re not guns. They are inferior primitive weapons. Crossbows are not bows.

From: TGbow
02-Feb-22
Technically, anything more than a bow and a string powered by the pull of the archers strength is a "bow".

I don't care what anyone uses. I don't and have never used a compound or cross bow...not that I look down on them or anyone that uses them. I don't think anything but compounds, recurves, longbows or crossbows should be used during archery season. I love guns a lot but I hardly ever hunt with one.

02-Feb-22
With crossbows its not "what" a person uses thats the issue. Its "when" they use it. The challenges of bowhunting, both in the moment when we have to be close, draw and make a good shot, and the challenge of getting and staying proficient, are like gold. They are valuable because those challenges are what allow bowhunting to usually have longer seasons, easier access to tags, easier access to less crowded spots and a high level of satisfaction when things work out. Its human nature to eliminate challenges that make accomplishment harder but bowhunting exists because of "harder"... thats the point of it. Its self-defeating to constantly work at eliminating the the pillars holding our house up.

From: Hancock West
02-Feb-22
If crossbow hunters aren't bow hunters then how can hunters shooting an advanced compound bows with letoff & a fancy site be considered a bowhunter? Where do you draw the line? I guess trad only is "real" bowhunting. Chatter like this is just another way to divide hunters. Bad enough the bowhunters go after the gun hunters.

02-Feb-22
“Where do you draw the line?”

For me it’s actually quite simple. If you have to draw your bow using your own strength, it’s a bow. If you have the skill to know when to draw your weapon in the presence of game, your a bowhunter. If you actually have to practice to remain proficient, it’s a bow.

OTOH, if you can use a mechanical cocking device, it’s not a bow. If your weapon can be cocked and loaded today and remain that way indefinitely, it’s not a bow. If you can show up once a year at the range, set up your shooting sticks, look through your 6x scope, take three shots that hit the bullseye at 50 yds, then profess “Yep, it’s still on”, it’s not a bow. If a leading manufacturer’s catchphrase is “Meet Your Next Rifle”, it’s not a bow.

As others have said , I have zero issues with crossbows or those that use them, but I’m not a fan of them being allowed during archery season. If that makes me an elitist, so be it.

From: deerhunter72
02-Feb-22
Compound bows give the hunter a “mechanical advantage” because of the pulley and cam system. I’m sure this is why traditional bow hunters weren’t happy when they came out. Not to mention 85-90% let off that they have now. How is that fair to the animal? Missouribreaks likes to repeatedly point out that crossbows are scoped, well guess what, there are plenty of compound sight scopes on the market today. I guess from now on we can define a “bow hunter” as someone who only shoots a traditional stick or recurve bow. Or we could use common sense and not label each other.

02-Feb-22
We could be honest and recognize that although compounds made bowhunting what it is and the explosion in numbers made States and industry take it seriously, it also did have negatives. My good friend 30 years my senior doesn't have enough fingers to count the resident ram and goat tags he has drawn (and he has all of his fingers). There just weren't that many bowhunters to compete with. I am working on trying to get just one while I can still climb up the mountain. Everything has trade-offs.

I occasionally hunt with an open sight Ruger Blackhawk .45 Long Colt pistol. With practice, its very similar in effective range to a scoped crossbow, maybe even a bit behind today's models. Should they be allowed in bow season? My answer is no and unlike some, I wouldn't dream of pushing to wedge my way into bow season or even muzzleloader season even though it's well behind a modern muzzleloader's capability. I just hunt during rifle season when I have hunted with it.

03-Feb-22
Some of you get it.

From: Rocky D
03-Feb-22
I just hope that the crossbow hunters doesn’t gain greater numbers than bowhunters because in politics the largest or richest constituency usually wins the argument!

Sadly, politics is how we compete for limited resources!

From: Hancock West
03-Feb-22
Definition of Bow: a weapon for shooting arrows, typically made of a curved piece of wood whose ends are joined by a taut string.

I guess it doesn't mention anything about cams, let off, fancy TRIGGER releases.

03-Feb-22
In the eastern half of the US, scoped and cocked crossbows already are the majority, and moving further ahead of bow hunters every year.

From: PECO2
03-Feb-22
"If a leading manufacturer’s catchphrase is “Meet Your Next Rifle”, it’s not a bow."

From: PECO2
03-Feb-22
"Missouribreaks likes to repeatedly point out that crossbows are scoped, well guess what, there are plenty of compound sight scopes on the market today."

Compound scope sights not legal in Colorado. Lighted sight pins are not legal. We only recently became legal to use lighted knocks.

03-Feb-22
I might also add, a compound bow is not shot out of a shooting vice. As seen over and over on videos, oftentimes the scoped and cocked crossbow is placed into a shooting vice inside a blind. The shooter does not do anything but line up the crosshairs and pull the trigger. The vice holds the crossbow and scope steady, the hunter does not. Contrast that to shooting any kind of a hand drawn bow.

Wow, what a set up for water hole antelope and mule deer, pick them off at 100 yards, no sweat. Great by bait or food plots for whitetails too. Guys, vice shooting is very common out of blinds.

From: Kevin Dill
03-Feb-22
I have repeated this many times:

In Ohio, we have a lot of deer. Archery season runs from late September to early February...nonstop. There is no hiatus and you can bowhunt every single one of those days. Annual archery harvest totals are approximately equal to firearms harvest totals. Of the archery kill, crossbow kills take well over half the total. Crossbows are the official and undisputed weapon of choice here during archery season. I didn't want them included many years ago, and I argued against them. So, would I get rid of them in Ohio today if I could? No.

The reason is there's simply no way that compound and stickbow hunters could kill enough deer to make up for the crossbow loss. That would mean a burgeoning deer population statewide which the state simply will never allow to happen. The deer management plan would need altered to somehow kill enough deer to meet objectives. How would it happen? Firearms would have to do it. Firearm seasons would be expanded. So would muzzleloaders. The types of firearms allowed might well be expanded to improve success rates. The bottom line is this: Firearms hunters would gain many more days, while archery hunters would have fewer days to themselves each year.

Crossbow, stickbow, compound bow. Ohio deer management relies on one of these MUCH more than the other two, and you can bet it's not by accident.

From: PECO2
03-Feb-22
Too many deer, multiple tags per season: Crossbow OK in archery season.

Too few deer, one tag every 3 or 4 years: Crossbow not OK in archery season.

03-Feb-22
Good post Kevin Dill. I too mentioned in many eastern areas whitetails are over managment objectives. I think the real issue is the potential impact on non whitetail species, especially in the west. Also, it is an absolute farce scoped crossbow users consider themselves bow hunters. That is an outrageous claim.

03-Feb-22
I might also add, there are areas where whitetails are not over managment objectives. In fact, in some areas a deer tag is already on a limited drawing.

From: Rocky D
03-Feb-22
“ Also, it is an absolute farce scoped crossbow users consider themselves bow hunters. That is an outrageous claim.”

MB, It doesn’t matter whether they consider themselves as bowhunters but evidently the state includes them as bowhunters or they wouldn’t be in the archery season!

Now, that’s an outrageous claim!

03-Feb-22
I guess, but you cannot shoot a hand drawn bow from a shooting vice/bench. Scoped and cocked crossbows are frequently fired from a fixed shooting bench and vice. Common here in the midwest.

From: LBshooter
03-Feb-22
Every winter this topic rears its ugly head. The high tech compgun shooters bitch about xbow Hunter. So high tech is bitching about others using equipment that has really stayed about the same. Let us not forget gents that a crossbow was around far longer the a compound bow. Changes have been made over the decades but it still operates the same as it did back in the day. Maybe a separate season should be installed for techno geeks, which would include compounds and xbows. Say, 4 weeks out of a 3 month season? Or maybe after the rut? The amount of influence the xbow manufactures have over the politicians is far greater than the hunting community so hunters lose. Worry about you and how you hunt and if your eat a tag don't look to blame anyone except you.

From: Rocky D
03-Feb-22
MB, There is a lot of wisdom and Kevin Dill’s post.

If we continue to try to confront crossbows in archery season or other bowhunting related issues in the same manner that we have in the past then we will continue to fail as we have in the past!

From: deerhunter72
03-Feb-22
Rocky D just used some common sense, see how that works? If we are going to bicker, belittle and judge each other as hunters then maybe it's best if we let our respective states define us.

I've been shooting bows of different varieties for 35 years now so you can call me what you want, not going to bother or affect me in the slightest. This thread has made it abundantly clear that some hunters don't like other hunters choice of bow, even if it's legal, and the most clear reason is jealousy and fear, mostly of losing out on tag draws. At least a few guys admitted it and had the guts to call it just that.

From: Jaquomo
03-Feb-22
Rocky, in Colorado, CPW allows muzzleloaders and rifle hunters during September "archery season". But they don't consider rifle hunters and muzzleloaders as "bowhunters". Crossbows are allowed during rifle seasons, so presumably they consider them to be "rifle hunters".

The biggest difference is that special rifle (high country deer, bears) and muzzleloaders draw tags from a separate license pool than bowhunters. If crossbows are allowed into the archery pool, they will compete for the same limited tags, and will also compete for already crowded public land during that same time.

I don't care if people hunt with crossbows, bazookas, flame throwers, poison darts, so long as they don't reduce my opportunity to hunt with a hand-held, hand-drawn bow. In the East and midwest that doesnt appear to be a problem. In the West with highly limited tags, it is a quantifiable problem.

03-Feb-22
^^ Yes!

From: Rocky D
03-Feb-22
Joq, I was referring to those states that do allow crossbows to be used during the archery season!

The biggest problem in the West is the game departments like the money of the nonresident hunter! No one does this better than CPW.

From: Rocky D
03-Feb-22

From: pav
03-Feb-22
A well known bowhunter told me years ago...bowhunter apathy will eventually spell the demise of bowhunting as we know it. This thread (on Bowsite no less) certainly drives his point home. We really are our own worse enemy.

Speaking strictly about Indiana...because that's where I live. Active lifetime member of the Indiana Bowhunter Association for 35+ years. Represented the IBA on the Indiana Deer Advisory Committee many years, until the group was eventually disbanded by the IDNR. Sat on more committees focused on bowhunting opportunity and whitetail deer hunting related issues than I care to count. Just saying, I have never been an armchair quarterback when it comes to issues I'm passionate about...and bowhunting is at or very near the top of the list.

The IBA has been instrumental over the years, working with the IDNR for additional bowhunter opportunity, including: Longer early archery season, establishment of late archery season, bowhunting opportunity on military and refuge draw hunts, bowhunter acceptance in state park deer reduction hunts (that was a tough one!) and availability of antlerless permits in the early archery season (another tough one!). Back then, we had numbers and numbers gave us clout.

In 2012, the IDNR finally caved into the crossbow industry...not hunters...and opened all archery seasons to crossbows. Just handed over everything we worked so hard to establish. I made a prediction crossbow harvests would eclipse bowhunter harvests in a decade. I was wrong, only took seven years.

We knew initially, the majority of crossbow hunters would come from the firearms hunter ranks. We accurately predicted a significant drop in future bowhunter recruitment. We did not anticipate the number of current bowhunters that would switch to crossbows. Bowhunters quickly became a minority in the seasons created for bowhunting.

Hard to find a good pro shop these days...so even IF a crossbow hunter wanted to switch to bowhunting...not going to be an easy task going forward. Too easy to order a crossbow and bolts from Amazon, delivered to your door and ready to hunt within minutes with zero assistance. If you can sight in a rifle...you can sight in a crossbow.

With bowhunter numbers spiraling, so too is the membership of the IBA. Went from being a big fish in a little pond....to a little fish in a big pond. Never going to recover. The IDNR still listens to the IBA...but it feels more patronizing than genuine interest. The clout is gone and I expect the existence of a once proud 57 year old state bowhunting organization isn't that far behind. I expect future decisions will be made FOR the bowhunters of this state rather than BY the bowhunters of this state. Very difficult to be optimistic about that...

Why do I care what others use? Because I care about the future of bowhunting.

From: pav
03-Feb-22
Much respect ...Kevin Dill. But unlike Ohio, your neighboring state of Indiana already had 16 days of general firearms season during the rut, followed by 16 days of inline muzzleloaders...BEFORE crossbows were ever introduced into archery season.

03-Feb-22
You can see the problem right here on this thread. There are many scoped crossbow users and sympathizers on this site. And, they support the notion that crossbow shooters are indeed real mainstream bowhunters which represent bowhunting in America.

From: timex
03-Feb-22
Gonna say again in my area with a deer population problem it matters not to me what one kills deer with.

My eyes have been opened about the states with limited tags. This talk about x bows & shooting vice or rest. Well it's kinda necessary. I imagine shooting a x bow offhand at any distance is challenging. Probably far more difficult then shooting a vertical bow.

My son participates in (Fallen outdoors) its similar to wounded warriors. We have taken several of these gentlemen hunting & fishing over the years. Every single one that we've taken during bow season has used an x bow. I could care less what they use. But again we have unlimited deer tags. The last one we took hunting this season during gun season showed up with his daughter & asked could she hunt in his place. What an admirable thing for a father to do. Of coarse they both hunted but got no shots. Fellas I understand those with limited opportunities argument about the x bow making those opportunities even more limited. But there's so much more to hunting than with which weapon one chooses to hunt with.

From: LBshooter
03-Feb-22
Every winter this topic rears its ugly head. The high tech compgun shooters bitch about xbow Hunter. So high tech is bitching about others using equipment that has really stayed about the same. Let us not forget gents that a crossbow was around far longer the a compound bow. Changes have been made over the decades but it still operates the same as it did back in the day. Maybe a separate season should be installed for techno geeks, which would include compounds and xbows. Say, 4 weeks out of a 3 month season? Or maybe after the rut? The amount of influence the xbow manufactures have over the politicians is far greater than the hunting community so hunters lose. Worry about you and how you hunt and if your eat a tag don't look to blame anyone except you.

From: APauls
03-Feb-22
If your state needs to add crossbow hunters to kill deer that's fine. Just run a parallel crossbow season to the bow season where both are hunting at the same time. Just don't call a crossbow a bow so that if at any point you need to separate the two it is still easy. Problem comes when elk move into Ohio due to a successful transplant and they allocate "X" special archery tags for them, and now you've got every single hunter in Ohio competing for the archery tags. Because any rifle hunter can be a bow hunter if you call a crossbow or an airbow a bow.

Having crossbow, airbow, muzzleloader or even rifle hunters killing deer in September is not an issue if the deer need killing. What is an issue is pretending a scoped, cocked firearm sitting on a bipod is the same as pulling a string back and lettin 'er fly.

From: tm
03-Feb-22
My main objective is to hunt myself and allow others to become hunters with whatever they choose. The more hunters the bigger their opinion becomes to the game managers and general public. JMHO

From: PECO2
03-Feb-22
"Worry about you and how you hunt and if your eat a tag don't look to blame anyone except you." I haven't heard one person bitch about eating a tag. I've only heard justifiable concern about even drawing a tag. A concept some of you still don't get.

From: deerhunter72
03-Feb-22
pav, I guess I may be apathetic then, however I do care about bow hunting a great deal. In my neck of the woods, crossbows have not been gloom and doom. My first experience with one came a few years back when my dad had to make the decision between no hunting or hunting with a crossbow. He decided he wasn’t done and got several more years and killed a slew more deer. No, he didn’t kill more than he did with his compound/recurve, he just kept going. He was one of the first archers to bow hunt in our area and the crossbow kept him in the woods. Why did he need it? After 2 shoulder surgeries he could still pull and aim but his accuracy was off and after he wounded a few deer he knew he had to make a change. He got the doctor to sign off and he got the crossbow. Fast forward to 8 years ago and I had to have surgery on both hands in the fall and I didn’t want to miss being in the woods so I got a crossbow and lugged it out a few times just to sit in a stand. After I recovered I went back to the compound and now I do switch back and forth a bit. On average I shoot one deer a year with a bow so I have killed a few bucks with it. Is it easier? In some ways yes and in more others no.

Politics aside, what I really don’t like is to have a bunch of high tech, compound wielding snobs saying that ANYONE lazy enough to take a crossbow to the woods is not a bow hunter. Is it personal to me, VERY. Will it affect me, not at all.

From: PECO2
03-Feb-22
deerhunter72, I don't have an issue with crossbows for legit medical reasons. I believe most guys here don't either. I tried a crossbow in Michigan, hated it. I did use it to get my nephew into hunting there. I brought it back to Colorado and gave it to a Colorado group (Outdoor Buddies) that takes handicap people hunting and fishing. When and if the day comes I can no longer shoot my compound and recurves, I'll get rid of them. I have a muzzle loader and rifles, I like to shoot them and will continue to hunt.

From: pav
03-Feb-22
deerhunter72,

Indiana offered a disability permit for bowhunters to use crossbows for decades. Wasn't good enough.

Indiana opened up late archery to crossbows for everyone and kept the disability permit for early archery season. Wasn't good enough.

Indiana opened all archery seasons to crossbows for everyone. Apparently wasn't good enough.

Been dodging air bow and muzzleloader in archery season proposals ever since. When those eventually get approved...and history says they will...that won't be enough either.

FYI, my dad had shoulder surgery at age 75 and was forced to hunt with the crossbow his last three seasons on earth. I never had an issue with the disability permit.

03-Feb-22
The same thing happened in neighboring states, Wisconsin and Michigan. Few bow hunters left in those states now, most able bodied now use the scoped and cocked crossbow during archery season. Bow and arrow hunting continues to decline.

From: Drummer Boy
03-Feb-22
Its not any different then when compounds came out,almost every one took the easy way.Most hunters used fingers, now most use releases.

From: deerhunter72
03-Feb-22
I appreciate your responses fellas. It is a shame that politics get in the way of the hunting that we are passionate about. It really does stink that some of these corporations weasel their way in to push their agenda for greed. I do understand the limited draw issue and sure would hate to be subjected to it. And I do see that the circumstances in my small window of the world are very different than a lot of others on bowsite and I hadn’t really considered that before now.

03-Feb-22
Good hunting everyone, regardless of weapon choice.

From: Hancock West
04-Feb-22

Hancock West's Link
Angry Bowhunter addressed this 3days prior to this post. Not saying i agree with it but its funny stuff no doubt. Missouribreaks you will LOVE this article.

From: Live2Hunt
04-Feb-22
"Its not any different then when compounds came out,almost every one took the easy way.Most hunters used fingers, now most use releases."

I was around for this. There were a few grublings but it was not as bad as this. At least it was a drawn bow against a drawn bow. That is why it wasn't that big of an issue.

From: timex
04-Feb-22
Peco2... you've beaten the if you even draw a tag thing into the ground. I get it. Now I have a question for ya. Exactly how many different big game species is there to hunt in Colorado ??? Elk, mule deer, whitetail, blacktail, coues, antelope, moose, black & grizz bear, cougar all the goat, ram & sheep species. I honestly don't know. But that's roughly 15 different big game species. Kinda makes all the whitail (does) ya want to kill seam like not such a big deal.

From: Drummer Boy
04-Feb-22
Live2hunt,your right but you have to remember compounds were nothing like the ones we have today.Plus at least in Wisconsin mec releases were not legal.Plus in wis we only had 10000 bow hunters,and know internet to complain on.

From: APauls
04-Feb-22
Recurve to compound is different than compound to crossbow. A compound is a proficient weapon. A Crossbow is a machine. A recurve is a proficient weapon out to 10 yards and after that you're simply hoping the animal doesn't move and taking tree stand selfies with you and your bow ;)

From: LINK
04-Feb-22
Timex have you ever looked into drawing a goat, sheep, moose or “grizz bear” tag. Next to impossible. So realistically in western states you’re hunting mule deer, elk, antelope and black bears . You ought to try public land archery elk in Colorado. I’d gladly go to a stick and string if it meant hunting elk that acted like elk.

04-Feb-22
Thank you for the link Hancock, my sentiments exactly.

From: PECO2
04-Feb-22
Timex, let me beat it some more... Hunting moose, sheep, and mountain goat, can take decades. You basically get to do it once. If you start applying this year, you may never draw. Most whitetails are east of I-25 which is 99% private land. Sooo, unless you live there, really not a viable option. We have cous and blacktail to hunt here? Antelope, who cares. Bears, are tough, no hounds or baiting. Most just carry a tag in case they find one while hunting mule deer or elk. We do have unlimited elk tags in some areas. Join the party, check out any one of the many Colorado bow hunting too crowded threads. Rifle OTC even worse. Ask where to turkey hunt in Colorado, you will be told to go east to Nebraska or Kansas. Stop acting like we get 15 tags for 15 different species EVERY year. For the last time, I live here and accept the rules. Stop trying to change them.

From: LFN
05-Feb-22
I'll try to help here with some numbers maybe will help explain our situation here in Colorado. last year 35,921 hunters applied for 318 available big horn sheep tags, 52,878 applied for 529 available moose tags, 27,340 applied for 234 available mountain goat tags. the preference point system for these species tops out at 3 then weighted points after 3, ( too confusing to go into) so you pretty much cannot draw a tag the first 3 years you apply but you have to pay $50 non refundable to get the point each year. the elk unit I used to be able to hunt every year had 1291 applicants (archery) for 500 tags, only 310 of which were for residents, of the 345 resident applicants with 0 preference points only 38 got a tag, so the unit I've been hunting for 30 years I can only hunt every other year unless I get one of those few (38) 0 point tags, but it gets worse every year. if those same 307 that didn't draw apply next year (now with 1 point) that would leave only 3 available tags for someone with no points. opening up our archery season to crossbows would likely draw in hunters from the rifle seasons since the crossbow has a short learning curve. which would speed up the point creep. Selfish to not want more archery hunters, no, if those hunters wanted to they can pick up a bow, nothing is stopping them. but if we have a bunch more hunters applying for the same number of tags due to crossbows EVERYONE will have a harder time drawing.

From: deerhunter72
05-Feb-22
LFN, thanks for adding some actual Colorado numbers to the thread. I certainly see the dilemma of drawing certain tags.

From: timex
05-Feb-22

timex's embedded Photo
My son Eddie beside a 550# blue marlin
timex's embedded Photo
My son Eddie beside a 550# blue marlin
Peco2.....dude you have issues I asked you a question & ya get rude. I'm not trying to change anyone's rules. And have no desire to go out west hunting. Yall shed some great light on the limited tag situation & competition with x bow hunters for those tags but ultimately it comes down to one's personal opinion of exactly what an x bow is ....... I'm perfectly content in va killing whitetail in the winter & tuna mahi wahoo & marlin in the summer. There's big game in the ocean as well brother....

From: PECO2
05-Feb-22
Timex, I feel like I answered your question and it wasn't my intent to be rude. I do have issues with crossbows and airguns in the archery season with the exception of medical issues. I'm going to just leave it like that. Very nice fish, I also love fishing. Take care.

16-Feb-22
With the overwhelming success of the scoped crossbow, and the ongoing evolution as a long range weapon, I believe in some more populated areas ( and states) we are headed toward the elimination of guns and gun seasons to control the deer herds. Voters will get on this train, especially on smaller public lands where non hunters also recreate. The scoped crossbow will be deemed safer, and with less noise pollution. Let's discuss in ten years and see where we are.

16-Feb-22
In MA, NH and RI, archery season has it's own window until shotgun, rifle and black powder. It keeps the hoards of orange vests down to a minimum and also allows the deer to continue relatively unimpeded through the rut. I've been fortunate to take a number of deer in those months preceding the firearms seasons and also ethically take quality animals in the process. I for one would vote to keep archery segregated to its own season then fold in those firearms seasons as it sits today. Just my humble opinion, but no matter what you use there is nothing like being in the stand in the fall! I think we all can agree on that.

From: Rocky D
16-Feb-22
“ I believe in some more populated areas ( and states) we are headed toward the elimination of guns and gun seasons to control the deer herds. Voters will get on this train, especially on smaller public lands where non hunters also recreate. ”

MB, we are already not currently meeting management objectives so why would they limit us even more?

16-Feb-22
Let's just wait and see, give it ten years. The ball will roll slow, but I predict it will roll. Voters and politicians do not follow science, they are compelled by emotions and perceived safety. Anything anti gun will win out, Sandy Hook helps set the stage. Even I can see some logic and support, in higher human density areas. We already have some of that (bow only) in certain metropolitan units. I predict an expansion, potentially far reaching.

From: Don
16-Feb-22
If I had 800 acres I could see not caring, but I’m a public land hunter and it definitely effects my hunting.

From: Juancho
17-Feb-22
My buddy of so many years and I , have gone hunting together probably more times in the last 25 years , than I went with my wife to the mall. We've hunted big and small game. The one thing that is a common though, we almost all the time go with different weapons. I take the recurve, he takes the shotgun. I take the flintlock , he takes the airgun. I take the airgun , he takes the .223. You get the picture. Never ever did we care what the other went with. We had many great hunts ,and many successful ones too. Last one I remember we went for Canada geese . We both score, I had my recurve he had his new over under 20 gauge . Why do people even care what others hunt with. We are all hunters period.

From: Jaquomo
17-Feb-22
"Why do people even care what others hunt with. We are all hunters period."

Yes we are. Unfortunately here in the US some want to take hunting opportunity away from others because of their choice of weapon. If archery tags are limited and tens of thousands of crossbow hunters are allowed to compete with archers for that same limited pool of licenses, bowhunting opportunity is reduced accordingly.

Here in Colorado, crossbow hunters can hunt in October and November. But that's not good enough. They want to horn in on our September archery season as well, take limited licenses away from bowhunters, and increase crowding in our already overrun Over The Counter bowhunting units.

That's why we care.

From: Bake
17-Feb-22
I didn't read the whole thread. I went through and cherry picked :)

This issue is region dependent and goes down from there. Yes, it's a big deal out west, with such limited resources and high demand for tags.

I don't see it being such a big deal in eastern or midwestern states with high deer populations (and some with high deer numbers, and reasonable hunter numbers).

Missouri legalized crossbows for everyone. I don't hunt throughout the entire state, I stick to my little SW corner where the Ozarks meet the plains. I was worried about it. I will say it has had zero effect on my hunting. I know people who aren't hard core bow guys that bought crossbows, and I was worried it would really increase the amount of people in the woods. I haven't seen that so far. It seems here at least, that it's a lot of non-hardcore folks that bought crossbows, and they're not in the woods anymore than they were before :)

I can understand that some regions may have a greater impact. So I can understand people being upset in certain places.

17-Feb-22
It is always interesting to hear bowhunters ask why it matters what others use. Do they really want the gun season to run concurrent with the archery seasons? I think it does matter.

From: Zim
17-Feb-22
“WHY is it so important to some what others choose to hunt with. Myself personally could care less.”

Same as a few others have said here. I don’t care what others use until it adversely affects game management and pressure on public land. And Xguns most definitely have done that here in Illinois. The worst part is these regulation changes are made by special interest group greased politicians like Jerry Costello here. You guessed it, a guy with zero wildlife management education. All it takes is one corrupt one to bypass the DNR’s authority to manage. What a system.

From: Live2Hunt
17-Feb-22
Bake, come to WI and hunt public land now, LOL. It's a joke, especially the past 2 years. Wolves first stopped hurds rebuilding, xguns came in and now you can't find enough animals to hunt, especially adults.

From: Darryl/Deni
17-Feb-22
I care because it will eventually lead to the loss of bow seasons as we know them. Many of the things that have become "legal" have done so due to a strong lobby of people who are selling a product and it is in their best interest to have them made legal. The X bow and air gun people do not care about bow hunting, they care about making a profit while they can. So yes I care and will continue to do any and everything I can to oppose them. Not caring is equal to acceptance and not caring about what happens to the sport. Darryl Payne.

From: Darryl/Deni
17-Feb-22
And APaul, I agree with you about the cross bow being a machine but if you think a traditional hunter past ten yards is just hoping, well I will just leave that alone. Also a lot of us that choose that way hunt from the ground with great success so have no need to just sit in a tree and take selfies.

From: Arrownoob
17-Feb-22
It matters because people want to feel superior and try to control others. That’s why. There may be genuine concern for the resource sprinkled in but that’s mostly a front, possibly unconsciously.

17-Feb-22
In the case of the eastern whitetail deer (and perhaps some others) why not simply have one season, use whatever weapon you choose? This is exactly what it should be if weapon choice really does not matter.

From: timex
17-Feb-22
I started this thread & in my neck of the woods the x bow has had zero impact. The biggest problem in the areas I hunt is trophy hunting resulting in an overpopulation of does. An example = Loudoun County va has 8 months of deer season. The month of Sept is does only any legal weapon. Shotgun,muzzloader, rifle, handgun,× bow vertical bow. And no daily bag limit and doe tags are 6 for $18.00

Oct is either sex bow. First 2 weeks Nov is either sex muzzloader then rifle either sex till first sat in Nov. Then doe only again any legal weapons till the end of march then the month of April is bow only.

That's 8 months deer season no daily bag limit 3 bucks per season & all the does you want to kill at $3.00 per tag.

Just to give yall westerners an idea of the differences between regions.

I honestly understand the argument in tag draw states but I feel that yall just can't grasp the complete opposite of your situation in the eastern states.

...Don... that 800 acres was 22 years ago you really should read all posts before commenting.

17-Feb-22
Why not one long season, fill your tag how you choose?

From: Juancho
17-Feb-22
There is a season in Ontario for deer and moose that you can use anything. Bear season is open for all types of firearms ( a bow is consider a firearm in Ontario ). Most bear hunters I know use bows and muzzle loaders , I only know two guys that use crossbows. I have a crossbow , but I use it at home for my friends to shot and get involved in archery and have fun . In all the years I had it , I only took it once and shot a squirrel. I needed to experience it at least once. Didn't like it , so I moved on. Been a traditional archery hunter for 29 years , and flintlock for small game for 14 years. And hunting all together since '69.

From: timex
17-Feb-22
Midssouribreaks...... The answer is $$$$$

In va you buy your basic hunting license this entitles you to small game & fowl & varmints. Waterfowl also requires state & federal Waterfowl stamps.

Then ya have big game tags for deer, bear, turkey, & this is all that required during general firearms season.

There's an additional $18.00 permit required to hunt with a muzzloader during muzzloader season There's an additional $18.00 permit required to hunt with a vertical bow during bow season There's an additional $18.00 permit required to hunt with an x bow during Archery season

From: Jaquomo
17-Feb-22
Timex, with all due respect, we understand the eastern situation and I agree with MB that maybe just one long season free-for-all. OTOH, I don't think many eastern hunters who are crossbow proponents understand how allowing crossbows into an either-or, pick-your-season and weapon would blow up the bowhunting dynamics in a state like CO.

From: badbull
17-Feb-22
We care out here in the west for the reasons articulated by Jaq and others. Even for deer and elk the ramifications of allowing crossbows in archery season would be be far reaching. As I try to mentor young hunters to try real bowhunting getting decent bowhunting conditions can be difficult due to overcrowding and high demand for tags. Old folks like me and my wife must use our preference points wisely as we could run out of time before we draw these tags requiring ever increasing numbers needed to draw.

From: PECO2
17-Feb-22
"It matters because people want to feel superior and try to control others. That’s why. There may be genuine concern for the resource sprinkled in but that’s mostly a front, possibly unconsciously." Clueless, you have no idea what you are talking about.

From: pav
18-Feb-22
"I care because it will eventually lead to the loss of bow seasons as we know them. Many of the things that have become "legal" have done so due to a strong lobby of people who are selling a product and it is in their best interest to have them made legal. The X bow and air gun people do not care about bow hunting, they care about making a profit while they can. So yes I care and will continue to do any and everything I can to oppose them. Not caring is equal to acceptance and not caring about what happens to the sport. Darryl Payne. "

That statement sums it all up! If you don't care about crossbows in archery seasons, then you don't care about the future of archery seasons...period!

From: Bowbender
18-Feb-22
"Why not one long season, fill your tag how you choose?"

Because it would not be "one long season". At least here in PA. In 2009 we had about ~250,000 bowhunters. That is the same year crossbows were made legal across the board. We now have ~375,000 bowhunters. It's estimated well over 65% of the harvest is from xbows. My guess is, if we went to an any weapon season, those archery "converts" would revert to their preferred weapon. The rifle. They took up archery for the ease, not the challenge.

18-Feb-22
But, many on here are claiming scoped crossbows have no impact, so what difference does it make they say. Populations are regulated by tags issued, not the weapon used. If true, why does a hunter using a gun, not deserve the same opportunity as hunter using the newly engineered long range scoped crossbow?

From: Bowbender
18-Feb-22
"If true, why does a hunter using a gun, not deserve the same opportunity as hunter using the newly engineered long range scoped crossbow?"

Agreed. As long as both are in the same season. Which ain't archery.

18-Feb-22
I too agree, the scoped and cocked long range crossbow does not belong in archery seasons, period. Unfortunately that ship has sailed in most eastern states. In those states, why have a separate bow and arrow season when less than half hunting archery seasons use a hand drawn bow. No matter what some say, the newly engineered scoped crossbows are legitimate 100 yard plus weapons, and with good accuracy right off the shelf. In the east, the scoped crossbow and bolt should be replacing guns, not bows and arrows.

From: Live2Hunt
18-Feb-22
If you want to decimate the adult buck population in your state's public lands, use a gun type weapon of any kind during the rut. Main reasons deer were not hunted with a gun till after the rut was to give them a chance to breed. Bow hunting was allowed because of the limited harvest and would not affect the herd. This you can see in WI large tracts of public forest since the allowance for a gun type weapon during what was the archery season. Again, for what WI was for a deer hunting destination a few years ago is no more unless you have access to private land.

From: pav
18-Feb-22
Indiana legalized crossbows in archery season in 2012. Prior to 2012, bowhunters were annually responsible for 20%-22% of the total annual deer harvest. Every year since crossbow inclusion, that percentage has dropped. 2021 stats are not available yet, but the bowhunter harvest percentage in 2020 was 12.7%. We're down 40% and dropping more every year. Crossbow percentage of harvest in 2020 was 15.3% and climbing. Bowhunters are now a minority in archery season here and the gap consistently widens every year. To be clear, crossbow inclusion in archery season has reduced the harvest percentage for firearms seasons as well. We're not killing more deer (less overall actually)...just killing more deer in archery season.

You guys out west need to keep one thing in mind. The more "whitetail" states that adopt crossbows in archery season, the more $$$ the crossbow industry rakes in to fight for crossbow inclusion in your backyard. This is big business and they will never be satisfied until there is nationwide crossbow inclusion in archery seasons.

I'm done preaching. The combination of apathy and ignorance among bowhunters on this issue makes me ill. Those of you thinking crossbow inclusion has no affect on you as bowhunters are going to eat those words eventually. Don't believe me...do your own research.

From: Mad Trapper
18-Feb-22
PAV x 2. You want to talk future of Bowhunting? This is the battle that must be won. We have already lost it in several states. Not sure the true bowhunting organizations will be able to recover from it. Some tried. For those bowhunters who frequent Bowsite and who are not a member of the bowhunting organizations who are fighting this battle, you have nobody to blame but yourself when your "archery" seasons start to shrink from the inclusion of crossbows. My 2 cents...

From: Rocky D
18-Feb-22
IMHO, as long as bowhunters fight this as an us versus them issue then I think we will continue to lose this battle over time.

I think the best fight for the long game is one based on a weapons capability at a particular distance for the average Joe!

As noted,the east versus the west conversation is totally different. Out west visibility is the big difference. I don’t know how many hundred inch coues deer that I could have killed if I could have shot out to 100 yards versus a maximum of 60 yards. That was stalking, I could just imagine sitting at a waterhole with a crossbow on a stable platform where I could easily have pinpoint accuracy out to 100 yards!

This does not take into account the many crossbow hunters who would try to over extend their distance much like compound shooters do with their equipment!

Let’s be honest it is not that hard to get within 80 yards of a bull elk in the rut in many of the better units. Where this is really questionable with a compound at that distance it’s a no brainer with your better crossbows.

Sad thing, is that if politicians look at this as simply a vote then we will loose in the end.

18-Feb-22
What some of you are forgetting, is the fact that many on this forum are no longer bow and arrow hunters and enthusiasts. Many here ( perhaps most ) use the long range scoped and cocked crossbow, and/or they own one for their children and other family members. That is why there is little support here to keep the long range scoped crossbow out of the general archery seasons. Yes, some here still occasionally use, or own a compound bow, but more and more when the rut comes along they reach for the longer range and highly effective scoped crossbow to fill their archery tag. If you pay attention to the responses, this fact has been demonstrated over and over. Check out the support for the long range scoped crossbows on the Wisconsin forum. The Michigan forum is basically extinct, very few bow and arrow hunters left in my state, visiting an archery shop will prove that.

18-Feb-22
Those facts sure quieted this thread down, quite revealing.

From: deerhunter72
18-Feb-22
MB, I quit posting on this thread because it's pointless. You guys that preach gloom and doom are also dividing hunters that should be on the same side in the end. I am currently researching what kind of long bow would be best for me but according to you I'm not a "bow hunter" because I own a scoped crossbow. I've said it many times, we are our own worst enemies...

From: pav
18-Feb-22
Yeah, and I would really like to participate in the Tour de France, but I want to use an eBike and the bastards won't let me!

In most cases, the only thing stopping a man from picking up a bow and participating in archery season is the guy looking back at him in the mirror.

Truth is, hunters didn't push the crossbow agenda in Indiana...crossbow profiteers did all the work. Saw it first hand...over and over...for many years until they succeeded.

18-Feb-22
That is true Pav, but the ultimate outcome relies on hunters making a choice, and reaching into their pocketbook. Some hunters have resisted the temptation, and remain bow and arrow hunters. There are not very many of us left in the East.

From: deerhunter72
18-Feb-22
pav, using an eBike in the Tour de France is against the rules. Each state determines what is legal equipment to use in archery season, so as long as you are hunting with approved equipment then you are good to go. See the logic there?

I probably am apathetic to the issues that take place out west with the messed up way they dole out tags, but there's not a thing I can do about it. The issue I have with this thread is the way some hunters want to define other hunters. It's hypocritical in my opinion.

From: PECO2
18-Feb-22
What is hypocritical about wanting to keep rifles, muzzle loaders, cocked scoped crossbows and airguns out of a bow and arrow season? Shoulder fired weapons mounted to bipods or tripods don't belong in a bow and arrow season, call me crazy, selfish, hypocrite, jackass or whatever.

18-Feb-22
Hunters define themselves by the equipment they use. A gun hunter uses a gun and hunts the gun season. A bow and arrow hunter uses a bow and arrow and at one time hunted in a special season designed for bows and arrows with relatively short range, and low success. Now that special season is no more as it has been destroyed with hunters using the scoped crossbow which can easily (very easily) kill a rutting buck at 100 yards in dim light, and then some. Bowhunters use bows and arrows, gun hunters use guns and bullets, and scoped crossbow users use scoped crossbows and bolts. Each weapon has different limitations, and does define the hunter and the trophy. There is nothing wrong with that, just be honest with your entries and accomplishments (that is another story in itself).

I hope those in West can continue to keep the newly designed, long range scoped crossbows out of their archery seasons.

From: Live2Hunt
18-Feb-22
All those who are bringing issues up to stop going against xguns I'm sure are xgunners now. The most common of which are, putting hunters against hunters and I don't care what someone hunts with as long as it's legal, actually those are the only ones they use. For the most part have there own property to hunt and don't see the effects of these things on the public lands.

From: deerhunter72
18-Feb-22
PECO, what I find to be hypocritical is someone who uses a high tech compound bow with 90% let off, high tech sight and a mechanical release looking down their nose at any other hunter. If none of that applies to anyone posting here than please excuse me.

From: PECO2
18-Feb-22
ar·cher·y /?ärCH(?)r?/ noun 1.the sport or skill of shooting with a bow and arrows, especially at a target.

From: Stringwacker
18-Feb-22
Archery only seasons are restrictive by design. It makes them unique and special. Historically they have always meant hand held bows.

I've always thought of it this way...either you support and defend archery only seasons; finding fairness in their existence..... or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

States can't expect to include 'everything you can push, pull, or drag' into the woods for the sake of revenue creation, and expect the seasons to continue without challenge from additional forms of weaponry.

From: PECO2
18-Feb-22
There is a huge difference between a modern high tech compound and a modern high tech crossbow.

From: deerhunter72
18-Feb-22
^^Try telling that to a traditional hunter.

18-Feb-22
I am a traditional, osage selfbow hunter. There is no comparison between a hand drawn compound bow, and the newer long range scoped crossbows. The crossbow is far more effective. The scoped crossbow can be, and oftentimes is, shot from a stationary shooting vice, requires zero arm motion, generally uses high power, light gathering scopes, shoots at greater speeds, is pre cocked, and can very easily hit dead on at 100 plus yardages. None of those facts are true of the most modern compound bows.

From: Live2Hunt
18-Feb-22
Missouri x2

From: BOHNTR
18-Feb-22
Spot on Missouribreaks!

From: deerhunter72
18-Feb-22
There is no denying the fact that traditional hunters predicted the end hunting of bow hunting when the compound bow was introduced. They were proven wrong, it wasn't the end of the world. Now bow hunters in general are predicting the end of bow hunting because of the crossbow. In my neck of the woods that hasn't happened, but I can see where the concern is for others, particularly with the tag draw situations out west.

Every so often these threads pop up on here and they always end up being completely useless. timex asked a question and stated his views and it devolved from there. I'm out on this topic. Happy hunting

From: pav
18-Feb-22
"pav, using an eBike in the Tour de France is against the rules. Each state determines what is legal equipment to use in archery season, so as long as you are hunting with approved equipment then you are good to go. See the logic there?"

You COMPLETELY missed the point. Rules can be changed...which is EXACTLY what is happening with crossbows in archery seasons. See the logic there?

From: Live2Hunt
18-Feb-22
"There is no denying the fact that traditional hunters predicted the end hunting of bow hunting when the compound bow was introduced. They were proven wrong"

Wrong again, I was around. There was griping, but not anything close to this. At least it was a bow against a bow, not a bow against a gun.

From: Brotsky
18-Feb-22
I'll give you the most simple and accurate analogy you'll read on this thread:

Allowing crossbows in archery season is like allowing men in women's sports.

From: Bowbender
18-Feb-22
"PECO, what I find to be hypocritical is someone who uses a high tech compound bow with 90% let off, high tech sight and a mechanical release looking down their nose at any other hunter. If none of that applies to anyone posting here than please excuse me."

I keep hearing that there no is distinction between xbows and compounds. Remember the last time you nestled the butt stock of your compound into your shoulder, fingers wrapped around the pistol grip of the AR style stock, the forearm fully supported on a tripod or other fully stable rest, peer thru the 4X power scope with the illuminated reticle and the range (73.5 yds) already set from the bluetooth rangefinder, flip the safety off, and squeeze the trigger. Ya, me neither.

You're excused.

From: SteveD
18-Feb-22
Live2Hunt agree, no way can this be compared to the "us" vs "them" when the compound came on the bowhunting scene or even close to division and instant success that device has created. The shoulder fired device was meant for handicap only, doesn't belong in archery seasons in any way shape or form.

23-Feb-22

Missouribreaks's Link
Looks like these people care.

From: TonyBear
23-Feb-22
150ft is about 50 yds, 250 ft still within the lethal range of most bows with a good broadhead. Most crossbows can shoot a couple tenths of a mile. That said, most of the inner city hunts I have participated in made tree stand hunting mandatory, 20 yd range preferred if not required, shooting at a downward angle.

With some city hunts having 2-3 acre plots can be hard to meet the restrictions but the deer are certainly there. Know what is in front of and beyond your target downrange....

From: timex
24-Feb-22
I'm absolutely not defending x bows. Their not for me but I also know that their not the killing machines folks believe they are. This is speaking for myself. I dearly love shooting & hunting with trad bows but am not an inherently accurate trad bow shot it litterly takes me months of regular practice to be able to consistently pack arrows into a small group at 20+ yards & especially without warm up as in hunting situations.

Next the compound it's more like a few weeks practice mostly to get muscles conditioned. Then the x bow just a few shots to check zero & go hunting. But but but. Try shooting one offhand or try still hunting - sneaking around with one. They definitely have stand specific limitations that other bow types don't have or at least imo.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
OP………” The x bow has had zero impact in my area. Perhaps other parts of the country it has.”

Duhhhh, ya think?!

Lol, Dude that’s because I just noticed you are from yet another state with crappy liberal deer management, Virginia. Your state has firearm hunting the entire month of November, the peak rut being two weeks of rifle! Then 2/3rds of December! Reminds me of Michigan here in the Midwest. So of course crossguns didn’t make any impact on your deer herd. It was already garbage to begin with! Same as Michigan. Same as why our Illinois woods are filled with guys from the southeast states in November. States like Illinois & Iowa have a lot to lose from xguns given they protect the deer herd from firearms. You have nothing. Take a look at any P&Y map and see the big white area that is called Virginia. Same as all the other states with crappy liberal deer management. So “zero impact in Virginia”……hell ya. And “Perhaps other parts of the country” ………hell ya!

I’ve seen the same argument from Michigan guys for years here. You all need to get a clue.

From: Rocky D
25-Feb-22
“ Lol, Dude that’s because I just noticed you are from yet another state with crappy liberal deer management, Virginia. Your state has firearm hunting the entire month of November, the peak rut being two weeks of rifle! Then 2/3rds of December! Reminds me of Michigan here in the Midwest.”

Zim, stick to killing big bucks since obviously you are not a biologist! It’s hard to evaluate deer management if you don’t know deer management!

From: timex
25-Feb-22

timex's embedded Photo
Killed this season just shy of 20" inside. Didn't measure beyond that. As I said I'm a meat hunter that occasionally kills a decent one for my area.
timex's embedded Photo
Killed this season just shy of 20" inside. Didn't measure beyond that. As I said I'm a meat hunter that occasionally kills a decent one for my area.
Zim.....

First off get your facts straight

Va, bow the month of Oct, muzzloader first 2 weeks Nov, then General firearms till first sat in Jan.

Most counties east of the blue ridge have unlimited doe kill & the highly deer populated counties have the earn a buck program that you must kill a doe before killing a 2nd & 3rd buck. No absolutely va is not a top """(((Trophy)))""" Whitetail state. But if your into a freezer full of venison & the occasional decent buck As I am. Than it's a great place to deer hunt.

I live & hunt in two of the top small grains producing counties in the state & the biggest problem here is trophy-horn hunters that don't kill does. The farmers are really between a rock & hard spot. City folk pay big $$$ for leases but only kil bucks & the farmers suffer from crop damage due to the doe population.

I honestly don't see it as a game management issue in my area. It's more of a pic on fb of a buck is more important than a freezer full of venison issue.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22

From: Zim
25-Feb-22

Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo

From: Zim
25-Feb-22

Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
See that huge white spot in the map? That's called Virginia. The only decent acre-for-acre Eastern coast state is Maryland, and guess what? Just checked and they only allow guns the last 4 days of November. The rest is protected. Why am I not surprised?

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
Like clockwork same as the Michigan xgun proponents on here, OP posts photo of one buck and claims this as evidence that xguns have zero impact in their already crappy states. Lol why am I not surprised?

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
"Zim, stick to killing big bucks since obviously you are not a biologist! It’s hard to evaluate deer management if you don’t know deer management!"

Deer management??? Dude, Your state doesn't even have deer management. And you are trying to educate people about crossgun's zero impact? Is this for real? Wait, Is this a joke? It's not April 1st.

From: Boris
25-Feb-22
Here is a little history lesson on archery equipment. For those that where not around when the recurve was introduced by Fred Bear and Co. The longbow shooters whined about that bow. Said it was going to hurt their archery season. Then we had a GREAT invention, the bow sight. People whined that it was going to harm the season. Too many deer would be harvested. Then it was fiberglass and alumun. arrows. Then the most devasting invention of all. THE COMPOUND BOW. The longbow and recurve shooters really got their girdle twisted. But, after a few short years, they where excepted. Then came the release. Even P&Y was against them. Then the higher let off. Again, P&Y was against it. Then it was the stiff and light weight carbon arrows. Look at the different types of broadheads we have. Even look at the string material. Sad, but true, we have to except technology. We are no different than the deer we hunt. They like to find the easiest route to get from point a to point b without getting killed. Humans are always looking for the easiest way around life. For us older hunters, we know the joy and misery of practicing our sport for hours on end. Take a look at gun hunters. Why does someone need a 45-70 to hunt deer. Why does someone need to use a 300 winchester magnum. This is the same thing that is going on in archery. Bigger, more powerful and longer range to shoot. Here in Pennsylvania, our season has increased. In other States, it mainly has stayed the same. Take a look at Ohio, their season is like 4 months long. I think they have had the crossbow in their season for 30 years if not 40 years. As for the crossbow, for most of the younger hunters, they can get instant success with very little effort. They don't know the real joys of bowhunting. As for the older bowhunters, we have experienced the joys and pleasure of bowhunting. The only problem is our bodies are telling us, you cannot do this any more. We want to get out there an hunt. Even if it means using a crossbow. Yes, there are guys that are in their 60's, 70's and 80's that are still using a compound and/or recurve. Sorry to be long winded. But, final note, I was once told back one of the top whitetail biologist. The most important thing in a good strong herd is the number of dead animals. Don't matter how they are killed.

From: Rocky D
25-Feb-22
Zim, most game departments may not use record book deer as their measure of success.

25-Feb-22
So, did any of this have an impact on point creep, especially with non whitetail species?

From: Rocky D
25-Feb-22

Rocky D's embedded Photo
Rocky D's embedded Photo
“ you are trying to educate people about crossgun's zero impact? Is this for real? Wait, Is this a joke? It's not April 1st”

Zim, I am not trying to educate On the use of crossbows. I just think that you were making assessment on Virginia based on a limited perspective and know absolutely nothing about Virginia or the deer management program.

You make over generalized analysis based off of little information, education, and probably zero hunting experience in Virginia!

My first P&Y class deer was killed on public land in Virginia with a bow! In 1982.

As far as Georgia goes the hunting is fantastic! I can bow hunt from September till almost the end of January.

Here is my buck from last year from public land in Georgia. Sorry, I didn’t do a hero shot.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22

Zim's embedded Photo
Georgia’s marathon gun season
Zim's embedded Photo
Georgia’s marathon gun season
So now you take your rhetoric to Georgia and yet again follow the Michigan narrative I described. I don’t need to post glory photos to debunk your theory. The bucks you post are exceptions to the rule. However, I need to tell you I’d pass on those where I hunt. In fact I passed on three 140’s and 160 prior to taking my 185 5/8” this year. So they really don’t impress me. But you are getting way off the topic here. Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. The point is you can’t compare crossgun impact in unprotected Virginia, Georgia nor Michigan to Iowa & Illinois. It’s not rocket science.

This year I had guys driving from Pennsylvania, Maryland, Michigan & Mississippi to hunt my public spot. In previous years the list went on to include many more…….Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee. Most packin xguns. There’s a reason they come here, and not Virginia.

From: Rocky D
25-Feb-22
“ you are trying to educate people about crossgun's zero impact? Is this for real? Wait, Is this a joke? It's not April 1st”

Zim, I am not trying to educate On the use of crossbows. I just think that you were making assessment on Virginia based on a limited perspective and know absolutely nothing about Virginia or the deer management program.

You make over generalized analysis based off of little information, education, and probably zero hunting experience in Virginia!

My first P&Y class deer was killed on public land in Virginia with a bow! In 1982.

As far as Georgia goes the hunting is fantastic! I can bow hunt from September till almost the end of January.

Here is my buck from last year from public land in Georgia. Sorry, I didn’t do a hero shot.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
It’s the OP timex that posted the ludicrous comment that crossguns don’t impact deer in his area.

A lifetime of experience has taught me the #1 factor in quality deer management is firearms in the breeding season. Bar none. There isn’t even a #2 management tool.

One of the other giant white spots on the P&Y map is Georgia, along with all the Southeast states. That’s why I got to meet half the hunters in your state in Illinois the last 30 years.

From: Rocky D
25-Feb-22
Zim, so only bowhunters should reap the benefits of the rut. Most game departments are saying there’s not enough you’re being killed so why would you limit your weapon types during the rut?

I would keep the conversation focused on crossbows and crossbows capabilities versus a bows capabilities. I think that’s the only argument that’s going to win in the end! Us versus them never works!

I bet one of the top five most populated counties in Georgia probably has more Pope & Young deer killed in it than the county you’re from in Indiana.

While you’re researching you may wanna look up Bergman’s rule.

From: timex
25-Feb-22
Zim your ignorance is overwhelming. First off your hunting season pic is a conglomeration of the entire state including inner city special seasons. Second va is a large state. If you look at that little finger of land or pinnensula between the Chesapeake bay & the Atlantic Ocean that's where I currently live & if you look to the nw that borders wva that's yellow to orange that's where I grew up. The season has been my entire life bow Oct muzzloader 1st 2 weeks Nov & rifle 3rd sat in Nov to 1st sat in Jan. Plain & simple I'm not into big bucks only with a bow only. I'm into a freezer full of venison & more than happy to kill a decent buck if one comes my way.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
Rocky D, I don’t hunt Indiana at all. They have 32 gun days, 16 in prime rut. No thanks. Not when I got an Illinois LL and 4 Iowa pref points.

Ten years of crossguns destroyed quality on Indiana public land.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
So you two are claiming xguns will have zero impact on Illinois & Iowa?

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
So you two are claiming xguns will have zero impact on Illinois & Iowa?

From: Rocky D
25-Feb-22
Absolutely not, but I am saying that your argument will not defeat the crossbow initiative.

From: timex
25-Feb-22
Zim the key words are (in my area) where I live in va there's a significant deer population problem & in fact all of the Eastern & north western part of the state has a problem.

Now you just can't seem to differentiate between deer herd management and trophy buck management.

If I understand your logic its your belief that no guns should be allowed during at least the first 3 weeks of November.

Now how about you try to explain that logic to a farmer that has 40 deer every evening in his corn or soy been field.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
timex, Does are vulnerable 24/7 round the clock. If farmers complain it’s their own fault. Mature bucks that’s a different story. They are by far most vulnerable during the rut. November in most of central US.

From: timex
25-Feb-22

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
“Now you just can't seem to differentiate between deer herd management and trophy buck management.”

I most definitely can differentiate the damage crossguns do in the archery season of a November protected state! Lol. I saw first hand in Indiana over a ten year period. I used to go sit on the ammo bunkers in September and count the studs. No more! It’s a barren wasteland these days. I stayed put and hunted the full season here because my mother-in-law visited 6 months from China. What a waste of my time. Never again. It’s IL or IA or nothing for me now. And IN wasn’t even a November protected state. But it was still decent ten years ago.

From: Live2Hunt
26-Feb-22
Zim, that’s exactly what is happening in WI now. We have a ton of public forest that i wasteland now. Adult breeding bucks are all but gone and I put the whole blame on the full inclusion of the xguns during November. The wolves are a big problem, but I could still find animals. Not anymore, the past 2 years have been horrible. We had xguns shoved down our throats 6-7 years ago and you can sure tell what they have done. Unless you can hunt private southern WI property, I would not consider WI for a hunting destination.

From: timex
26-Feb-22

timex's embedded Photo
My idea of a successful hunt.
timex's embedded Photo
My idea of a successful hunt.
Zim ......don't think it could be beat into your head with a 4x4. ((( In my area ))) there's so many does that bucks just don't travel like in areas with better buck to doe ratio herds.

And your solution to this problem is to or would be to eliminate guns the month of Nov to allow bucks a better survival percentage.

As I said it couldn't be beat into your head with a 4x4. There's more to deer herd management or mismanagement than just horns.

From: Live2Hunt
26-Feb-22

From: TonyBear
26-Feb-22
It used to be getting a doe with archery equipment was a big deal. In the early70s a really big deal as in the Midwest deer were scarce. The populations improved greatly and so did bowhunting popularity. Fast forward to the 2000s with multiple tags, multiple weapon seasons, but in my home state still 1 buck per season, regardless of weapon. In some areas the doe counted as that one buck, only one deer in some areas. Some of those areas I know have a large doe to buck ratio but if you shoot a doe it goes on your main tag.

Today we have a number of areas in my state that are multiple bonus tags for does but only 1 buck(any weapon). Just like WI there was a big push for crossbow inclusion in archery seasons. This was coming from the crossbow lobby as well as some specific ethnic groups claiming it was necessary for them to bowhunt, and the state for its recruitment issues. P& Y, MBI and few other organizations pushed back. As a compromise?? the minimum poundage was lowered to 30#, archery (including crossbows) for turkey all season, anyone 60 or older can use crossbow (no disability permits required). You also can use crossbows for bear and of course during the firearms season. That said , still not enough for the crossbow lobby, they still want full inclusion, including archery only hunt areas. As someone who has bowhunted close to 50 years I just can't see an upside for full crossbow inclusion-especially with the airbow and new stuff showing up at ATA.

Why? Because the archery seasons have a strong fraternal history, were developed for a more primitive handheld (under your own power) weapon that had to be drawn in the presence of game. Increasing the harvest with crossbows has demonstrated a negative effect on the archery season. This has happened in enough states that the argument is now moot. They need their own season.

Anyone who compares a compound to the new crossbows hasn't been paying attention. I am willing to bet I can take on any compound shooter with the older crossbow I have and still kick their butt. They are not hand-held bows, so yes it does matter what you shoot.

From: PECO2
26-Feb-22
timex, so your solution to deer management is a high number of does to bucks? Kill the few bucks that are left?

From: timex
26-Feb-22
Peco2...Not at all. It's Zim's belief as a trophy hunter that to insure a certain percentage of bucks survive the rut that the month of Nov should be Archery only. And that's great in areas with an average deer herd.

But what about ereas with an exaggerated deer herd such as where I live the herd size has continued to increase even with unlimited doe tags at 6 tags for $18. And gun starting the first sat in November

I've told Zim this several times & his response has been the same. It doesn't matter you want bigger bucks no guns or x bows in Nov.

There's a difference between game management. & trophy buck management.

In this picture you can see the plant nursery green houses in the middle & then you can see ALL the sounding small grains fields corn, beans & weat.

The plant nursery is roughly 200 acres but the majority of that is greenhouses or potted trees. They suffer significant deer damage on certain trees & shrubs. in the last three seasons myself & 3 others hunting as my guests have killed 73 deer.

And it's zims belief that in an area with this many deer that Nov should be changed from. Gun to bow so there will eventually be more mature bucks.

Yea ok sounds like a great idea.

From: timex
26-Feb-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo

From: pav
27-Feb-22
I find it interesting ...the OP started this thread to hear what others had to say. There has been plenty posted, including FACTS regarding the downward spiral of bowhunter recruitment in states which now allow crossbows in archery seasons. Yet, it is as if those posts were a complete waste of time.

Initial statement from OP - "WHY is it so important to some what others choose to hunt with. Myself personally could care less. "

Apparently you DO care about freedom of weapon choices...and apparently you DON'T care about the future of archery only seasons. That's your choice...as poor of a choice as that is for bowhunting. You posted photos of six dead deer and I don't see a bow in any of them? Don't care what you shot them with...but maybe that does help explain your perspective? For many on this website (BOWSITE), the bow IS the weapon of choice...and maybe that helps explain our perspectives?

From: DanaC
27-Feb-22
Just a small side note. Was looking at last fall's Cabelas/Bass Pro archery catalog yesterday and noticed that the x-bows were in package deals including 6 'arrows'. Not 'bolts', 'arrows'.

The game is over.

From: timex
27-Feb-22
Pav........ apparently you didn't read all posts. I dearly love bow hunting. When I moved to the farm I mentioned in the op I went bow exclusive then a few years after that went trad bow only until a heart attack in 2010 led me back to the compound. Then I acquired permission at the plant nursery & the # of deer they want - need killed requires gun hunting.

The op was basically saying that (in my area) the x bow has had zero impact ....

As for your this is bowsite comments well thats just hilarious. Did you just come from under a rock. Want a thread to go 300 posts just put up something politically controversial & watch it go.

From: Rocky D
27-Feb-22
I am totally against the inclusion of crossbows into archery seasons anywhere at any time!

I was just pointing out to Zim that his argument will have little effect on this discussion or future legislation pertaining to crossbows.

Most game departments are not evaluating their programs success based on the number of P & Y bucks that they produce.

From: Owl
27-Feb-22
The inclusion of crossbows in archery seasons should be seen as a success story for the history of bowhunting. Unfortunately, humans are hard-wired to be exclusionary for their own base psychological benefits so it is not. (Case in point, it took me a few years to arrive at that conclusion :)) Further, compound shooters who spent decades buying the newest, ever-lighter holding bows only have themselves to blame for it. We drove the market there. If a trad shooter objects, I disagree but, at least, they have a rational claim to logic.

That said, state DWRs and their constituents should decide what belongs. If your game pops. allow it, you should welcome it. We have much bigger fish to fry and standing on a soapbox about such a trivial topic is a horrible disposition. It looks small and does not function intelligently with more critical objectives. Well, unless the drive to exclude supersedes the will to thrive.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
timex, A huge factor you fail to address is a VERY high percentage of deer hunters target mature bucks. And even if they don’t acknowledge it, they are gonna dump a mature buck in a heartbeat if having to choose between that and a doe. In a New York minute. Nothing is gonna change that. So why not manage the heard with that in mind? Or you think it’s a good idea to ignore that in the equation?

Let me ask you a simple question I request you not to ignore…………Do you think it’s a great idea to have four people with a combined zero classes in wildlife management, two with only high school degrees, and one with a DWI conviction, all taking free money by Ravin to bypass a professional department of natural resources………to make deer hunting regulations?

Just a simple YES or NO.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
Owl, Therein lies the problem. “DWRs and their constituents” had absolutely nothing to do with xgun inclusion in any state. It was corrupt uneducated Ravin bribed politicians. Are you unaware of that???

From: PECO2
27-Feb-22
"The inclusion of crossbows in archery seasons should be seen as a success story for the history of bowhunting."

Huh? You didn't explain that one.

From: PECO2
27-Feb-22
Zim and Timex, what if, xbows are permitted in the archery season in November, but does only, only in those areas overpopulated with deer?

27-Feb-22
It is the hunters who financially support the long range scoped crossbow revolution. Many hide out right here claiming they are bow hunters.

From: Bou'bound
27-Feb-22
Those duplicitous scoundrels will Stop at nothing to ruin our bowhunting heritage and legacy

From: Rocky D
27-Feb-22
I am totally against the inclusion of crossbows into archery seasons anywhere at any time!

I was just pointing out to Zim that his argument will have little effect on this discussion or future legislation pertaining to crossbows.

Most game departments are not evaluating their programs success based on the number of P & Y bucks that they produce.

From: timex
27-Feb-22
Zim......I have said it I believe 3 times on this thread. #1 a freezer full of venison has no value compared to horns these days #2 farmers are between a rock & hard spot. City folks pay big $$$ for land lease but then only trophy hunt & the resulting doe herd crop damage is substantial. """You actually commented to this one. Something like that's the farmers problem "" #3 a freezer full of venison has zero value these days compared to a pic of a buck on fb. You just can't get it through your head that in Sept when the fields are full of young beans I can drive you around & show you field after field with 20 to 40 deer in most of them. There's roughly 95 days of deer season depending on how the calendar falls. 30 of those are bow 65 gun. Now even with my description of the doe overpopulation problem it's still your recommendation to make Archery 60 days & gun 35.

As for your game management officials with no game management education.

I'm gonna give you the same response as you gave me about the farmers. That's your problem... your tax dollars pay them !!! So do something about it !!! Lastly I got a dwi 42 years ago. I was at a bar chasing girls & drank to much. Got caught on my way home. Damn I'm glad I got that off my chest. Maybe I can sleep tonight after all this time.

From: DanaC
27-Feb-22
re Owl - "If your game pops. allow it, you should welcome it."

The problem is, the x-bow makers don't give a shit about anything but their own short-term profitability. Impact on game? Impact on seasons? Impact on quality of the hunt? Nope, "How much money did we make this quarter?" is their only consideration. And that means they'll push for x-bow inclusion in every 'bow' season everywhere, for anyone.

Here in Mass. it's still by medical permit but when I can 't pull an honest hunting bow back any more I'm done. Still have guns and fishing.

From: timex
27-Feb-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Peco2 ..... In this map the areas with red triangles have the earn a buck program & the areas with black diamonds the month of Sept and Jan, Feb & March is does only any legal weapon & no daily bag limit. Yellow diamonds are Sept only any legal weapon does only no daily bagimit ....

Perhaps this will better explain the problem in certain areas.

27-Feb-22
The long range scoped crossbow issue is just not about the eastern whitetail deer herd. Some of you sound just like Dems.

From: timex
27-Feb-22
Mb....... been lots of good info & dialog on this thread especially in the tag draw states. I can also completely understand the x bows impact on public land in close proximity to large city's. The areas I hunt in va have neither of these issues & in fact the complete opposite. Then ya have Zim who believes irregardless of the herd population problem we initially to manage for trophy deer. I'm no biologist but I do know that in the trophy buck regions genetics & naturally occurring land minerals are a major aspect of why these areas produce the majority of record book deer. Clearly there are major differences from region to region I do accept this however others just can't seem to grasp that fact

From: timex
27-Feb-22

From: pav
27-Feb-22
"As for your this is bowsite comments well thats just hilarious. Did you just come from under a rock. Want a thread to go 300 posts just put up something politically controversial & watch it go."

Unfortunately, I did not just crawl out from under a rock here. Been a Bowsite member since the early days.....'96ish I'm thinking? Will be forever grateful for Bowsite and to many of the dedicated bowhunters I met on Bowsite. That said, you are correct, times have changed and I honestly don't seem to have much in common with most of the people that dominate Bowsite these days. Much the same way I don't have much in common with the crossbow hunters now dominating Indiana's archery season.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
timex, a simple YES or NO is what I asked for. I know even you can do it if you only try.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
timex, There is nothing natural nor healthy about having spikes breeding does because the age structure of a herd has no diversity.

From: Owl
27-Feb-22
"The inclusion of crossbows in archery seasons should be seen as a success story for the history of bowhunting." Huh? You didn't explain that one.

-PECO2, The efforts of 20th century revivalists have resulted in the expansion of legitimate archery equipment and, sans the unfortunate divisiveness, should expand the appeal and entry into bowhunting. Keep in mind crossbows pre-date Fred Bear, Art Young, Saxon Pope and even Ishi's grandpappy.

The problem is, the x-bow makers don't give a shit about anything but their own short-term profitability. Impact on game? Impact on seasons? Impact on quality of the hunt? Nope, "How much money did we make this quarter?" is their only consideration. And that means they'll push for x-bow inclusion in every 'bow' season everywhere, for anyone.

DanaC, You're arguing against capitalism more than crossbows with that line of reasoning. Applying that thinking to other weapons manufacturers, how is it our firearm seasons aren't 6, 8 or 12 months long? Or our bow makers, for that matter. Do you not think these companies don't care about a profit or quarterly report? That dog won't hunt.

From: Whatthefoc
27-Feb-22
Brotsky nailed it. It’s not that different from men elbowing their way into women's athletics.

I identify as a bowhunter, so you have to let me in your season.

From: Rocky D
27-Feb-22
“ There is nothing natural nor healthy about having spikes breeding does because the age structure of a herd has no diversity.”

Zim, where is this a huge problem?

27-Feb-22
Crossbows may expand hunting but they have proven to be the biggest thing to shrink bowhunting in midwest states.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
"Then ya have Zim who believes irregardless of the herd population problem we initially to manage for trophy deer."

100% Wrong. It was wildlife managers who instituted the game seasons in Iowa & Illinois. Not greased politicians with high school educations & DWI's. All these states that have crossgun inclusion got that way by taking control away from professional wildlife managers.

Now timex just answer my question YES or NO.

27-Feb-22
The bowhunters association here in our state fought to keep the crossgun out of archery seasons and was successful. They have a season that runs concurrently and supposedly counted separate from the archery harvest. Reasons they wanted it separate was 1) It's not a bow 2) Increased harvest could/might/will shorten our season. The crossgun kill surpassed the archery kill in 3 short years and is now being looked at as a management tool. It will surpass the gun kill in a few short years IMO. Piss and moan all you want but a crossgun is not a bow and has proven that in the success rate . Which is why it shouldn't be included in archery kill data. Most of you worked for a company that the management didn't have a clue, it's no different in government. You can give them all the data they need to make a decision and they still will make the wrong one. So 15 years from now when your archery seasons have been diminished to a week or so don't be whining. Open your eyes folks!

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
Rocky D, Got tired of watching that on the 40 acres I used to own in Indiana. And that was well before it attained crap management status. Never see that activity where I hunt now.

27-Feb-22
The crossbows predating Fred Bear have no resemblance of the machines being currently marketed as crossbows. I hope I do not have to explain the differences.

From: PECO2
27-Feb-22
"Keep in mind crossbows pre-date Fred Bear, Art Young, Saxon Pope and even Ishi's grandpappy." When they first came out, Chinese Generals tried to outlaw them for use in war because of their long range effectiveness compared to the longbows. That should tell you something. Kept out of war, they should be kept out of archery season.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
After listening to the mentality of some people in this thread I had to do something so I just signed up for a 3 year membership in the Iowa Bowhunter's Assoc. This despite the fact I live in Indiana, and have an Illinois lifetime hunting license. I totally support IBA for their hard work fighting off Ravin parasites & their corrupt politicians. There's too many people that just don't have a clue.

I sure hope Iowa & Illinois never turn into the next Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Michigan or Virginia. Those states can keep their "wildlife management philosophies" to themselves.

From: RK
27-Feb-22
Peco2.

You win for the funniest post on this thread so far. I’d have to see proof of any General in any army that would not use the most efficient weapon available. Now I know nothing about the Chinese crossbow but up until about the 1400s the English Longbow shot further than the available English Crossbow

I know it’s fun to make up crap to further ones cause but it’s just ignorant

On that subject Zim, how does having a DWI interfere with ones ability to manage wildlife.

You guys on on a roll today! Carry on. :)

From: timex
27-Feb-22
Pav.... Your not alone I first got on the leather wall in 2000 when AOL dialup became available in my area. Back then I shot trad bows only the entire hunting season. I dearly love bow hunting there's very few things in hunting as special as an arrow shot instinctively from a trad bow dissapering into a deer exactly where you were concentrating on. Due to several reasons heart attack, arthritis, time. Iv gone back to a compound well sort of shooting an Oneida Phoenix now. And I'm very lucky to have exclusive hunting rights to a large plant nursery close to my house. The conditions of my hunting permission is that I'm to kill a minimum of 25 deer per season so now I'm back to gun hunting again. I love hunting & fishing. All of it. I respect those that only do it with a wood bow or bamboo fly rod. But I'm not that type. I just simply enjoy it all..

From: PECO2
27-Feb-22
RK, it's been discussed on here many times. I'll get some links posted for you. The Generals were afraid of being picked off from a longer distance, I believe both sides agreed to not use them.

From: PECO2
27-Feb-22
RK, not the example I'm looking for, but here it is and stand by for more.

Why The Catholic Church Tried To Ban Crossbows In 1139 Pope Innocent II issued an official ban on the use of crossbows against Christians. Thus in effect meant a ban for the entire European continent which was in effect predominantly Christian. Despite the official ban under the threat of ex-communication armies in Europe continued using crossbows in a battle against other European kingdoms.

They tried banning it because the crossbow was such a powerful weapon that even a peasant could in effect take down a knight. Thus the crossbow gave too much power to the common man which jeopardized the social hierarchy of the continent.

A peasant with a crossbow could take out a lord in full armor. During peasant revolts, you can see how dangerous that could be for elites. Of course, the ban went into effect but no one paid any attention to it.

https://archeryfacts.com/history-of-the-crossbow-explained/

From: Owl
27-Feb-22
"The crossbows predating Fred Bear have no resemblance of the machines being currently marketed as crossbows. I hope I do not have to explain the differences."

-The exact same criticism can be accurately ascribed to the compound bow and, brother, I know I don't have to explain that further.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
“in my area the deer population & especially does is out of control. Horn - trophy hunting is the biggest problem in my area. A freezer full of venison is just not important to most modern hunters in my area.”

If in your own admission your problem is hunters don’t want to shoot does, how the hell is a two month gun season, or even a 3 or 12 month gun season going to get your doe overpopulation solved? If everyone wants a mature buck, doesn’t it possibly make more sense to adopt earn-a-buck management? That’s what the property requires where I hunt. Guess what? It works AND they have mature bucks. Both the property and the hunters are happy. Go figure.

But for some reason, Ravin lobbyists nor yourself have approached your quasi wildlife managing corrupt politicians on the topic. What up?!

From: RK
27-Feb-22
Obvious that you have never managed any significant sized property Zim. And with regard to Illinois, what a disaster in corrupt wildlife management. Unbelievable. Of course I guess sone of the managers must have DWI convictions because they suck as deed and wildlife managers. I could write two books on the outlaws they have had as managers of that States wildlife department

From: Rocky D
27-Feb-22
Zim, I just cannot believe someone that lived in Indiana for as long as you have and don’t have an acre of land worth hunting in a top ten B & C producing state in the last twenty years.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22

Zim's Link
“And with regard to Illinois, what a disaster in corrupt wildlife management. Unbelievable. Of course I guess sone of the managers must have DWI convictions because they suck as deed and wildlife managers. I could write two books on the outlaws they have had as managers of that States wildlife department.”

Lol, This is hilarious. If you indeed knew anything about Illinois wildlife, or even just read my prior posts, you’d know the ILDNR wildlife managers are not allowed to manage wildlife. A Ravin bought and paid for corrupt politician by the name of Jerry Costello is responsible for crossguns there. With the urging of this representative Sue Scherer, who clearly missed her high school class when they were teaching about the 2nd amendment (see link above). Please note neither of these imbeciles have any wildlife management educations, much less work for the ILDNR.

From: Zim
27-Feb-22
“Zim, I just cannot believe someone that lived in Indiana for as long as you have and don’t have an acre of land worth hunting in a top ten B & C producing state in the last twenty years.”

Yes I live here but I won’t waste a single day of hunting deer in Indiana after ten years of crossgun pressure and 16 peak rut firearm days. And I don’t own land in a B&C state, but not sure that’s necessary as I did take a P&Y, a booner, plus one doe off public with my bow last year.

From: timex
28-Feb-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Zim .......I'm not sure what your smoking but it's some good stuff. I posted this earlier but apparently you missed it. Every county with a red triangle is in the earn a buck program.

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-22
“ And I don’t own land in a B&C state, but not sure that’s necessary as I did take a P&Y, a booner, plus one doe off public with my bow last year.”

Zim, I like your passion but argument is misguided and not biologically sound!

You missed the point on the land. I was alluding to the fact that you lived there your whole life and had no permission to hunt land worthy of your time. Where are all your friends? Hopefully, you are not to polarizing to have any friends that would let you hunt!

We are talking about managing deer not killing deer. As far as Iowa and Illinois is concerned I bet that their resident bowhunters wished that you stayed in Indiana. I wonder if they can legislate that but then those OUTLAW game departments wouldn’t be selling all those jacked up nonresident tag prices. If you don’t draw an Iowa tag maybe you can by one of their celebrity tags.

What do you recommend other than I hate crossbows in my season.

Many state game departments are saying they need more hunters. This is especially true in the east.

You have no biological data that supports restricting hunters more other than some record book graph and some anecdotal comments on spikes breeding doe in Indiana.

This is how the anti hunters constantly hand hunters their ass and crossbows win in the end.

From: Bou'bound
28-Feb-22
If anyone has had their original position changed over the past two weeks and 350 posts here just type in

I AM A CONVERT

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-22
Bou, converted how?

From: timex
28-Feb-22
I'm a convert.......... My eyes have been opened & absolutely there's a huge difference between whe western tag draw states & the eastern over population states & the mid western states somewhere in the middle. Even though it's gotten a little ridiculous at times I have learned from this thread.

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-22

Rocky D's embedded Photo
Rocky D's embedded Photo
Zim, Public land Virginia 2021!

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-22

28-Feb-22
I have learned many hunters are not concerned about conservation, or the bow and arrow hunting tradition. They only want to kill with the easiest technology available during the archery season, with horn porn the goal. The antis recognize the lack of caring among the hunting community and exploit it at every opportunity.

From: 200
28-Feb-22
There can be no glory without doing it the hard way. Unless your in it for the end goal of taking a hero shot with yer face removed from the photo. Just to grab bone and ride the Happy Gilmore Deer pony.

BullB

From: Zim
28-Feb-22
“You missed the point on the land. I was alluding to the fact that you lived there your whole life and had no permission to hunt land worthy of your time. Where are all your friends? Hopefully, you are not to polarizing to have any friends that would let you hunt!” I used to own my own land that produced the #1 archery buck in that county’s contest three consecutive years. I was offered great private land in west central Illinois several times with a sanctuary behind one. This includes 4 farms this year. (Contractor friend shot a 170+ & 180+ last year). However I don’t like imposing on people for free. Especially when I know they can make thousands leasing. I’m old school, 61 years old and too proud to have been on unemployment a day in my life. So I hunt public.

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-22
“ I have learned many hunters are not concerned about conservation, or the bow and arrow hunting tradition. ”

You are right, It’s easy to bring issues and their symptoms up but we don’t have a lot of solutions being recommended.

Then you have to get game departments to accept the recommendation. All that I’m saying from a game departments management standpoint that Zim’s solution doesn’t support the game departments objectives.

Most states are not meeting their whitetail deer harvest goal. That’s why in most states east of the Mississippi you can still buy over the counter nonresident deer tag.

Zim is wanting to limit and restrict while most states need more deer harvested. I think that this is the biggest obstacle to overcome.

To overcome the crossbow I think the better argument would be attack its capabilities and that is not best suited to be included into archery season.

Take that most deer are shot and under 100 yards and most of today’s top of the line crossbows can easily kill deer at that distance. I think this angle may be more acceptable than wanting to kill less deer when there needs to be more deer killed.

I would bet that the biggest problem on most QDMA managed land is trying to harvest enough harvest enough deer annually. The bigger the piece of land the harder for this to be accomplished!

Hunters must be better at defending their position than just saying what meets their personal goals.

28-Feb-22
There is no solution in the East, the ship has left the port. Bow and arrow hunting there is for the select few.

From: timex
28-Feb-22
Mb.....I wouldn't say the select few in my area anyhow. Most I know including myself still use vertical bows. I bow hunted very little last season in Oct it was just to darn hot. In the low to mid 90s I did kill 2 does the same evening the last week in October it had cooled off a little .

From: PECO2
28-Feb-22
I'm a convert. How much is a nonresident tag in Virginia? I would love a freezer full of farmland yearling whitetail venison. Any of those annoyed farmers with fields full of does on here, want to give me a free hunt? I'll help you out with that problem.

28-Feb-22
Almost all states where the scoped long range crossbow is legal for all have substantially fewer bowhunters than scoped crossbow users. Michigan and Wisconsin are two prime examples. Wisconsin even has published statistics. Bow and arrow hunting in the East is for the select few, and their numbers are declining every year.

From: Zim
28-Feb-22
I’m a holdout. Even with two damaged rotator cuffs & pinched nerve killing the muscle under my right shoulder blade. Lol. And at 62 was eligible for xgun in Illinois just by my age pre-inclusion. No thanks.

From: DanaC
28-Feb-22
"Bow and arrow hunting in the East is for the select few, and their numbers are declining every year. "

I think you'd have to modify that to *quality* B&A hunting. Plenty of places here you can go and see very little, game-wise. Plenty of public land that ain't worth killing yourself to get into. And if you do, you won't be alone.

From: Whatthefoc
28-Feb-22
In sask, Xbows have to follow muzzleloader regs, with a few exceptions. They now allow Xbows in the bow zone I live in … which immediately meant 100 clowns stumbling around the bow zone in September. Locked, loaded and clueless. I had guys ask me for help in getting started, - these are all rifle guys who have only hunted from their trucks or by pushing deer. I said ok - first I teach you how to shoot a real bow, no Xbows … deal or no deal? All but one hit the easy button and chose the xbow. The one guy I am mentoring is learning how to shoot, and how to hunt. IMO, he is doing it the right way.

It’s comical how some people see the greediness of the xbow hunter, wanting to get in on the archery seasons and zones - without having to learn how to shoot a bow. While others think it is greedy for the vertical bow guys to push back and say - hey, get outta my season!

In the end, I think we all have our own agenda and we are all guilty of being greedy to a certain degree. But the xbow guys can add ‘lazy’ to their list of attributes. Bottom line is that it’s easier to lobby for regulation changes than it is to learn how to shoot a bow.

I’m sure the first reply I’ll get to this will be ‘I never lobbied for Xbows in bow season - I’m just following the regs”. To that I say EXACTLY - see how easy that was?

I thought this was a bowhunting website…

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-22
“ Plenty of public land that ain't worth killing yourself to get into. And if you do, you won't be alone.”

This may be true in the northeast but I would hate to think in a state like Virginia with over 1.6M acres of public land that I couldn’t kill a deer!

From: Zim
28-Feb-22
WTF, Love your response to the newbies seeking advice. Hope the guy you mentored catches on and sticks with it. The lazy folks definitely don’t need to exert any energy lobbying. Ravin takes care of that for everyone. Like it or not.

From: Zim
28-Feb-22

Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
RockyD..............."Then you have to get game departments to accept the recommendation. All that I’m saying from a game departments management standpoint that Zim’s solution doesn’t support the game departments objectives.

RockyD, As I've stated again and again, but it doesn't seem to sink in, or you think I'm joking.............game departments have nothing to do with crossgun inclusion (in most cases they fight it), nor any other major deer management decisions. Corrupt politicians in every state have taken over that job, in exchange for special interest coin. In this case, Ravin Crossgun Company. What don't you get about that????????????????????????????????????????????? Do I need to post the legislative records for you? In Illinois it was Jerry Costello. I got the names of the four tools that did it in Indiana if you want that too.

From: RK
28-Feb-22
Damn Zim. Illinois is one of the worse corrupted dept. in the country. Always has been. Lose the blinders

From: Bowbender
28-Feb-22
"Bottom line is that it’s easier to lobby for regulation changes than it is to learn how to shoot a bow.

I’m sure the first reply I’ll get to this will be ‘I never lobbied for Xbows in bow season - I’m just following the regs”. To that I say EXACTLY - see how easy that was?"

Drops mic, exits stage.

From: Zim
28-Feb-22
RK, What is it with you crossgun tools? None of you can read? Surely there’s got to be one. Maybe Woody Williams?

I never said Illinois wasn’t corrupt!!!!! Where you get that BS? In fact I even posted the King Tool himself’s name in my last post, Jerry Costello. Also Sue Scherer! I posted a link on her. I actually moved away from Illinois in 2019 due to ridiculous blue taxes and million dollar state employee pensions. 95% of legislators are corrupt in every state. I have personally battled many for years. I even have a gullible honest one in my family in Utah. I had to educate her.

You people are unbelievable.

From: RK
28-Feb-22
Who are you people?

From: Jaquomo
28-Feb-22
Somewhere out there is a fat guy in a recliner with a beer on the coffee table thinking to himself, "Damn, I'd take up deer hunting if only crossbows were legal during archery season".

Or not.

From: Zim
28-Feb-22
You, RockyD & timex for 3............. Don't read posts.............Don't answer questions............ Make up flat out lies. WTF? It seems none of you know how the real world works. For some reason fantasize game agencies hold power over legislators. Think 12 month long any weapon deer seasons are awesome management. Lol. How bizarre. Well at least now I know why you have such horrible deer management in the Southeast. I'll see all your buds in Illinois next fall, like every year.

From: timex
01-Mar-22
Zim......I've come to the conclusion that your posts or at least some of them are alcohol influenced.....do you get drunk loose your rationale & start spewing off on the keyboard ?

First off. I'm not a trophy hunter I'm a meat hunter. I honestly can't remember the last time I bought cow in the grocery store. And the last thing I want to eat is a 5-6 year old rutted up stinking old buck.

Now I'm not saying I won't kill a big buck & be proud of it cause I have h will continue to do so but it's not my priority. A freezer full of 100lb does is my priority. So that being said va is a great place to hunt.

Furthermore to debunk some of your management or mismanagement theories va is a wealthy state in fact Loudoun County is the wealthiest County in the entire United States. Loudoun County also happens to have the highest deer population of all the counties in va. WHY very exclusive horse farms vineyards micro cattle operations & lots of no hunting estates. So you have lots of deer living there entire lives without ever being hunted a single day.

But guess what the place isn't loaded with 180" bucks not even close.

I have friends that are horn hunters and yes every November there somewhere in the Midwest hoping for that 200" monster. And there's more to those big horns than just management as you believe. It takes genetics naturally occurring land minerals and other factors.

Zim....I admire your passion on the subject but on the other hand you've allowed your passion of the subject to CORRUPT YOUR COMMON SENSE

From: Zim
01-Mar-22
timex, You ramble on senselessly but fail to acknowledge reality. I don't care what you choose to hunt, nor I. What I do care about is knowledgeable, qualified & educated people managing wildlife. Not soccer moms like in your area, drunk high school kids, greased politicians, nor special interest groups.

timex, A huge factor you fail to address is a VERY high percentage of deer hunters target mature bucks. And even if they don’t acknowledge it, they are gonna dump a mature buck in a heartbeat if having to choose between that and a doe. In a New York minute. Nothing is gonna change that. So why not manage the herd with that in mind? Or you think it’s a good idea to ignore that in the equation?

SECOND REQUEST - Just a simple YES or NO for everyone following this thread to witness.......................

Let me ask you a simple question I request you not to ignore…………Do you think it’s a great idea to have four people (Senators Brent Steele, Johnny Nugent, Jim Lewis and Richard Young) with a combined zero classes in wildlife management, two with only high school degrees, and one with a DWI conviction, all taking free money by Ravin to bypass a professional department of natural resources………to make deer hunting regulations?

Just a simple YES or NO.

It seems your post just above implies you don't think it's important. Please just unleash your COMMON SENSE to answer.

From: PECO2
01-Mar-22
Do you think it’s a great idea to have four people (Senators Brent Steele, Johnny Nugent, Jim Lewis and Richard Young) with a combined zero classes in wildlife management, two with only high school degrees, and one with a DWI conviction, all taking free money by Ravin to bypass a professional department of natural resources………to make deer hunting regulations?

NO.

From: RK
01-Mar-22
YES if they know enough to handle the job NO if they don't know enough to handle the job

What the heck does the DWI have to do with wildlife management

From: Rocky D
01-Mar-22
“ You, RockyD & timex for 3............. Don't read posts.............Don't answer questions............ Make up flat out lies.”

Zim, I’m done with your ignorance! All that I have said is that your argument doesn’t provide enough merit to sway the decision makers opinions!

You want to keep up the banter of wanting to tell the game departments how to manage the deer with a one dimensional strategy!

From: Rocky D
01-Mar-22

From: PECO2
01-Mar-22
RK, so what if they have a DUI, no problem I should have had many when I was young. The main deal breaker is taking money from crossbow companies. Are you OK with that?

From: RK
01-Mar-22
I have a problem with them taking money from ALL lobbies. So technically yes But the crossbow industry is just one of many

From: Zim
02-Mar-22
RockyD, News Flash!……...game departments don’t manage deer any more.

From: Zim
02-Mar-22
RockyD, News Flash!……...game departments don’t manage deer any more.

From: Zim
02-Mar-22
RockyD, News Flash!……...game departments don’t manage deer any more.

From: timex
02-Mar-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Should politicians with no education on game management be making game laws ...no.....

Should a deer herd be managed with the only goal in mind being trophy class bucks ...no....

From: PECO2
02-Mar-22
LOL that picture is on point.

From: timex
02-Mar-22
You like that.......I forgot the leg shanks.

From: Mark S
02-Mar-22
Timex - that's pretty cool and that pic is worth a thousand words. But, I wonder if more hunters see it Zim's way? The reason I ask is because soooo many guys on guided and even local hunts want to donate the meat and just want the rack/cape. I know there are a lot of guys on here that utilize all the meats due to all the threads/participation on them. Glad that it's not wasted. That bugged me about the TV guys- they were always saying they were helping feed the needy by donating the meat. For me if I'm going to take an animal's life I want to utilize the whole thing rather than just killing for my ego.

From: PECO2
02-Mar-22
The TV guys.

From: Tall Paul
02-Mar-22
Zim, hang in there buddy! You're dealing with people that are utterly clueless. But more than likely they've only hunted their local area, and have never even hunted in another state. By the way, I had knee surgery this morning so I had the time to read every post on this thread.

From: Zim
02-Mar-22
Well at least one of the crew acknowledges present day reality, and admits it’s wrong. But apparently doesn’t give a dam and the attitude is……….the means justifies his end. Lol.

timex, Did it ever occur to you that hunters could have their cake & eat it too?……………..Manage for a balanced age class herd, including both does & bucks? So hunters can hunt whatever class deer they’d like? Because that’s how it is where I hunt with my barrier-to-entry public protected from the orange army of guns & crossguns.

Did you ever consider possibly a hunter could both be a trophy hunter and a meat hunter at the same time? Because that’s what I’ve been doing for the last 25 years. But you wouldn’t have a clue because you never met me. I have a wall full of trophies AND two box freezers full of elk, deer & pronghorn. I waste absolutely nothing when I harvest game. Hell, my wife is Chinese and no doubt the stuff you pitch in the trash in a heartbeat, is a delicacy to her. Walleye head soup, including the whole spine; deer & elk stomach, heart, liver, sometimes even intestines. On my mountain backpack elk & moose harvests I am complimented time and again by locals for my boning out in the field, even at night. One time in Wyoming the local who packed my moose out with his mules was so impressed he had me guide him and his dad to their cow moose. He saw I didn’t leave a scrap on the bones, and had game bags elevated. My last trip to Arizona unit 1, I trophy hunted for the first 12 days, passing on several 330’s but ended up arrowing a 290” dink the last day because I wanted my elk meat. Love it.

Any moron who hunts deer East of the Mississippi and can’t harvest three does with a bow, much less a gun or crossgun, in a week of hunting, either doesn’t want a doe, or needs his man card revoked immediately. So who the hell needs three MONTHS or more for gun/xgun seasons??? It’s ludicrous. All those long seasons do is hammer & destroy the buck populations. But you have no concept of responsible management of a game resource. If it’s brown it’s down mentality.

From: Zim
02-Mar-22

Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
Camp
Zim's embedded Photo
Camp
Zim's embedded Photo
Pond where my bull expired
Zim's embedded Photo
Pond where my bull expired
timex, I assure you this bull was delicious. And I boned out every last scrap by myself, even at 10,800’, solo backpacked in three miles from trailhead, in freezing temps. In the New Mexico Pecos Wilderness. Just one of my typical hunts. I know very well how to take care of game meat. Very well. Three miles in, at 10,800’, by myself, no horse, no ATV…………no problem.

Some people know what they are doing. Others just don’t have a clue.

From: timex
03-Mar-22
As I previously said it just couldn't be beat into your head with a 4x4.

There's no orange army of xgun hunters here there's way to many deer & its your suggestions to make the month of nov bow only.

Has it ever dawned upon your thick skull that bow hunting is only a small percentage of hunters compared to gun hunters.

Dude your addiction to horns has corrupted your common sense.

Imagine going to a place overrun with wild pigs & replacing a month of gun hunting with bow hunting cause you want more boars with tusks.

From: Bowbender
03-Mar-22
"My last trip to Arizona unit 1, I trophy hunted for the first 12 days, passing on several 330’s but ended up arrowing a 290” dink the last day because I wanted my elk meat. Love it."

Then why not shoot a cow? 'Cuz it's cooler to say you shot a bull, even though it's a "dink". I thought you supported the whole "Let 'em go, let 'em grow" bravo sierra. BTW, I think that term is disparaging. It implies the animal was somehow less than worthy.

"Any moron who hunts deer East of the Mississippi and can’t harvest three does with a bow, much less a gun or crossgun, in a week of hunting, either doesn’t want a doe, or needs to turn in his man card immediately."

Wow.... Curious? How the hell does your head fit in that hat?

From: PECO2
03-Mar-22
Zim nice elk! Freezing temps? Photo looks like typical bow season warm weather :)

From: Zim
03-Mar-22
timex, Your comment you emphasized in your original post was tags crossguns didn’t have any impact in your area. Well hell no, not when there’s months of gun season. Most hunters are gonna use whatever is easiest. In IA & IL with zero & 3 day Nov gun seasons, huge impact!

Peco2, Being from CO, surely you gotta be familiar with temps at tree line in September. I had to break the ice off the top of the stream where I stored one of the game bags in plastic. Photo was taken at noon. There was actually 8” of snow covering the entire area the week prior to my arrival. But 75% melted off by the time I backpacked in.

From: Rocky D
03-Mar-22
Zim, in most of the east the management methods that you are advocating would not meet the deer herd demands..

Ohio would be probably the most eastern state that you can get by with your methodology.

From: Zim
03-Mar-22
Rocky, Nobody needs three freakin months of gun season anywhere to shoot a deer. Some deer seasons out west are 5 days! Any states that do, have disgruntled hunters show up in Illinois every November. I know I meet them. Lol

From: Rocky D
03-Mar-22
Zim, so tell me what you would change with Georgia.

From: Zim
03-Mar-22
Super simple. 1st Choice - Just carbon copy all of Iowa’s seasons/weapons, adjust for latitude to match rut. 2nd Choice - Carbon copy Illinois seasons/weapons but move crossguns back to gun season where they belong, adjust for latitude to match rut. Very simple.

Let each public property set hunter quotas and determine other property specific regulations.

And my bonus fantasy would be to ban greased legislators from interfering with the Georgia DNR doing their jobs. Even that is not simple, as some states like Utah have had private bribed entities (SFW) covertly take over wildlife boards. Pathetic huh? They tried the same in AZ but failed. Anything for money.

From: Rocky D
03-Mar-22
Zim, don’t you think it’s rather naïve to think that you can take a cookie-cutter approach applying season structures from two agricultural states in the Midwest and effectively manage the deer herd in the East!

What are you gonna do with the over population! If Georgia can withstand three months of gun season and an additional month of bow season and then still needs more deer killed. How are you going to get the job done with the same season structure as Iowa?

Bowhunters can’t get the job done the job done! Too many deer and two few bow hunters! We can already killed ten doe and two bucks and most people don’t even come close to that.

Why do you think that they’re trying to recruit hunters?

From: PECO2
03-Mar-22
No one needs three months to kill a deer with a gun. But they aren't killing just one deer. They can kill as many as they want.

From: Rocky D
03-Mar-22
“ No one needs three months to kill a deer with a gun.”

Peco, they need more deer killed! What would you suggest they do to get them killed?

From: timex
03-Mar-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Good luck Zim. I also Google searched the square miles for each state. Va 42.775. Iowa 55.857.

So roughly speaking Ohio is 13 k larger than va and va has 600k more deer than iowa

And for the 4th time (IN MY AREA) changing the month of Nov from gun to bow with the only basis being to improve buck survival would be a disaster.

From: PECO2
03-Mar-22
Rocky D, I was quoting the other guy. I'm saying, true, you don't need 3 months to kill one deer. You need 3 months to kill as many deer as you want.

From: Zim
03-Mar-22
Any place that is overpopulated needs breeding does killed, not bucks. But 95% of hunters want bucks. So obviously the management needs to implement some incentive to harvest does. Simply making a 2 or 3 or 12 month gun/xgun season ain’t gonna make any difference. Earn-a-buck works pretty good if hunters are required to physically bring their doe in, like where I hunt. If reporting by phone or internet you’re gonna get a lot of fake doe reports. As I mentioned previously, the only thing long gun seasons do is hammer & punish buck populations. And cause the hunters to run to Iowa & Illinois.

From: RK
03-Mar-22
Zim. Give it up. You got nothing and know nothing. Your heart may be in the right place but Deer management is your weak area.

Rocky D nailed it

Comparing Georgia to Iowa and Illinois is simply being ignorant

From: Zim
03-Mar-22

Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
RK, Give it up. You got absolutely nuthin. You really need to shut down the oven more and get yourself out of that hollow tree.

I’ve hunted seventeen different states including your Texas and five in the Midwest. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to know five months of deer gun huntin ain’t gonna make a difference if nobody wants does. Lol

From: RK
03-Mar-22
Zim. You are a Legend in the hunting world. 17 states? Laughing my ass off. That's nothing You are a taker. Not a manager

What have you managed other than 40 acres or my back yard

Funny stuff

From: Zim
03-Mar-22
Lol, I’m one hell of a lot more qualified than Sue Scherer, Brent Steele, Johnny Nugent, Jim Lewis, Richard Young & Jerry Costello! That’s without a doubt. Lol

From: RK
03-Mar-22
Qualified ? How?

List properties, states And acreage you have managed. Just whitetail, not other species

From: LFN
04-Mar-22
So if Virginia and Georgia have so many deer that the hunters can't kill enough I propose we send them the wolves intended for Colorado, problem solved LOL.

Seriously this has gotten off track from the original question. Obviously the management goals differs depending on where your at. But archery seasons were enacted due to hard work by archers to give them a chance to hunt game without the pressure of gun hunters.

In states like Virginia do they need a separate season if there are so many deer you can't kill enough. What is the draw to crossbows? Are the archery season dates so desirable that it's drawing in gun hunters? And non dedicated bow hunters just looking for an easier way. Could bow hunters in this state still compete if all manners of take were lumped together?

I don't know how long the archery season is in these states but would leaving it bow only for those dates really have that much detrimental effect in the overall picture, or would there just be more taken in the other seasons?

Some of the responders above are hunting private land and trying to kill as many as possible, fair enough but for hunters without those access opportunities hunting public land is it fair to make them complete with a superior range weapon?

Sounds like in some of the mid western states that have allowed crossbows the consequences has been to drastically reduce the number of bow hunters in favor of the crossbow, do they still deserve a special season?

From: timex
04-Mar-22
Lfn.....I'm 60 been killing deer in va since I was 11. My take on the situation in va is that as the old timers whome hunted for food die off & are replaced by fewer younger hunters that are influenced by hunting shows and only interested in horns.

There are variants but va's basic hunting season is the month of Oct is bow or Xbox. First 2 weeks Nov is muzzloader then rifle till first sat in Jan. In recent years Oct has been so hot especially this past season in the 90s. That I bowhunted very little.

This thread isn't important enough to me to dig up the exact numbers but there on the vgdif website. I'd guess that the bow to gun kill numbers are 20% bow to 80% gun at best & probably lower possibility 10 to 90.

I'm not saying there isn't plenty of bowhunters. I'm saying that the majority of em want to be like Lee lakowski or Michael Waddell. And could care less about putting a bunch of venison in the freezer.

The gun hunters are the ones killing the deer in va I have friends that work at the local deer processor for extra $ & they don't even turn on the cooler in Oct or open for business till muzzloader season.

From: timex
04-Mar-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
I decided to look it up....

The graph is very interesting and as I said in my op. The x bow has had little if any affect (in my area) deer kill numbers lower than in 1995 way before the x bow was an issue. And Zim before ya jump on the buck kill numbers consider that bow hunters get 1/3 of the hunting season & kill 14% of the deer and that # includes the orange x bow army in a state with an overpopulation problem. Your no guns during the rut theories have merit but not in a state with a 1 million deer herd & declining deer kill numbers. Sorry pall just not gonna work here !!!

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-22
Zim, Why are we showing elk pics and touting how many states that we have hunted!

What does this have to with deer management or crossbows!

It’s not enough to agree on crossbows issue but if we don’t buy into your management philosophy we are morons.

Why are we talking about man cards and breaking ice? I guess that it wasn’t cold when everyone else went hunting.

Zim, for some reason you value your opinion more than others do. Evidently, you have had some success in several states on two or three species and somehow you view yourself as accomplished!

You are on the wrong forum to demand credibility with such a limited resume.

Bowsite has some true legends and some legends in the making so do think that everyone is stop to listen when you go on your rant like you are the E.F. Hutton of the hunting world!

04-Mar-22
If deer are so overpopulated east of the Mississippi, why not allow gun hunters the same opportunity at rutting whitetails? In each state, have one long season and use whatever weapon the hunter chooses. What difference does it make what others hunt with?

From: PECO2
04-Mar-22
"So if Virginia and Georgia have so many deer that the hunters can't kill enough I propose we send them the wolves intended for Colorado, problem solved LOL." This, for the win.

From: PECO2
04-Mar-22
Does Virginia have a donate a deer to feed the hungry program? Drop off your deer at the processor and it goes to families in need or want, food kitchens etc.? What if Virginia gave out free, feed the hungry tags, and paid the hunter $$$ for each doe he/she brought in to the program? Would that put a dent in the doe population?

From: timex
04-Mar-22
Yes va has hunters for the hungry program. They have refrigerated drop off trailers at several locations in the counties where I live. But honestly hunter partication is not that great. Friends of mine work evenings at one of the processors. The state pays them $50 per deer to grind & package. The food bank picks up the meat.

I do not donate to the hfh program but I grind & donate deer burger to the local church that cooks meals twice a week for the needy

I also give the Hispanic workers at the plant nursery I hunt several deer each season. It's funny they see me coming with a deer & come over to help hang it in the shop & all they say is thank you, thank you, thank you & fajitas, fajitas, fajitas. It's not a deer to them it's a walking fajita. Way to funny.

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
"In states like Virginia do they need a separate season if there are so many deer you can't kill enough." - No, you need to shoot more does.

What is the draw to crossbows? Are the archery season dates so desirable that it's drawing in gun hunters? And non dedicated bow hunters just looking for an easier way. - HELL YES and HELL YES

Could bow hunters in this state still compete if all manners of take were lumped together? - HELL NO

Sounds like in some of the mid western states that have allowed crossbows the consequences has been to drastically reduce the number of bow hunters in favor of the crossbow, do they still deserve a special season? - (ALL Midwestern states, not SOME) NO, It's an insideous slow but unrelenting decline.

Stats courtesy Bowsite PAV Originally, crossbows were legalized during Indiana archery seasons for those with a disability permit. Then came late archery season antlerless only, no disability permit required. In 2012, Indiana adopted full crossbow inclusion in all seasons. Prior to 2012, the annual crossbow harvest floated around 1,000 animals. This is what happened since 2012:

2012: 27,580 deer with bows, 8,452 deer with crossbows

2013: 24,288 deer with bows, 10,171 deer with crossbows

2014: 22,375 deer with bows, 11,723 deer with crossbows

2015: 20,309 deer with bows, 11,837 deer with crossbows

2016: 16,996 deer with bows, 11,260 deer with crossbows

2017: 17,034 deer with bows, 14,747 deer with crossbows

2018: 16,069 deer with bows, 15,623 deer with crossbows

2019: 15,884 deer with bows, 17,136 deer with crossbows

2020 harvest numbers by weapon have not yet been released.

Notice both the steady climb of crossbow harvests and the steady decline in bow harvests. We (the IBA) told the DNR...crossbow harvest would eclipse the bow harvest in ten years. We were wrong, it only took eight years. Keep fighting the good fight fellas...or this is what you get.

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
RockyD, "Zim, Why are we showing elk pics and touting how many states that we have hunted! What does this have to with deer management or crossbows!" - Read the posts!!! To defend myself from personal attacks by timex that I am exclusively a trophy hunter and his implications that I don't eat my game meat, which was pure speculation and polar opposite of reality. Even in adverse conditions such as in the photo while DIY backpacking at 10,800'. Come over and try some of my wife's fish head soup, stir fry deer stomach, liver & intestines that you critics routinely disgard don't lie.

"It’s not enough to agree on crossbows issue but if we don’t buy into your management philosophy we are morons." - Yes anyone who actually believes 3 month long gun seasons will cause hunters who don't want does to harvest does is indeed a moron.

"Why are we talking about man cards and breaking ice? I guess that it wasn’t cold when everyone else went hunting." - I'll stand by my position anyone who can't shoot a doe in a week of hunting with a gun needs man card revoked. You tell us why not.

"Zim, for some reason you value your opinion more than others do. Evidently, you have had some success in several states on two or three species and somehow you view yourself as accomplished!" - I value reality and the real world. Not believing what is best for us from the mouths of 100% corrupt politicians. I have a lifetime of experiencing these aholes.

"You are on the wrong forum to demand credibility with such a limited resume." - Escuse me??? I'm on the wrong forum??? This thread is specifically about crossguns, which is NOT ARCHERY. There are crossgun specific websites like Woody William's Hunting Indiana or Crossbow Nation. Pat doesn't even take ads from xgun companies last I checked. What are you doing here???

"Bowsite has some true legends and some legends in the making so do think that everyone is stop to listen when you go on your rant like you are the E.F. Hutton of the hunting world!" - You sir are a legend in your own mind. I am simply a defender of archery hunting, and a Bowsite member since 1996.

From: Bowbender
04-Mar-22
"To defend myself from personal attacks..."

Calls the people that don't agree with him morons. Oxford should include that with examples of irony.

BTW, Still waiting on why you would shoot a "dink" bull, instead of a cow, cuz you wanted elk meat. Is it cuz no great elk hunting story ended with "...and I shot a cow"?

From: Zim
04-Mar-22

Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
Excuse me while I take a “trophy hunter” lunch break of stinky rutted up Oregon elk chili. Cold out today.

Hope it doesn’t offend anyone.

From: Zim
04-Mar-22

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
“Still waiting on why you would shoot a "dink" bull, instead of a cow, cuz you wanted elk meat. Is it cuz no great elk hunting story ended with "...and I shot a cow"?”

Don’t remember if my last two elk tags were bull only, or any elk. However I was hunting wallows on both of them. Usually via my LW climber from a pine or fir tree. Cows don’t really wallow and I had none in bow range on either hunt. If I did and had not scored by the last two days I would have dropped one. Maybe I should have chose to use a Ravin crossgun to extend my range? Because both my shoulders are trashed and I could have easily gotten a doctor’s note if my age alone didn’t qualify me. But I chose archery.

From: timex
04-Mar-22
Zim .....you said your wife is of Asian decent & cooks all kind of crazy stuff. Intestines , stomach & what have. Does she have any good recipes for cooking them horns ????

From: PECO2
04-Mar-22
"Does she have any good recipes for cooking them horns ????" LOLOLOL now that's funny!

04-Mar-22
Good stuff Zim.

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
timex, Very sorry. It’s obvious my lunch break did in fact offend you. Never asked wife about horns. But I do know she’s happy when she sees them because she knows I’m bringing home a lot more venison.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Mar-22
So, after 368 posts, have we figured why it matters what others use? ;-)

Matt

From: RK
04-Mar-22
GG. Of course not ..like most threads on the bowsite

From: RK
04-Mar-22
GG. Of course not ..like most threads on the bowsite

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-22
Zim, I’m just wondering why every time you get on a crossbow thread or you turn it into a management thread you go to Showing pictures of yourself!

I mean if you need additional attention maybe Pat would interview you if you asked!

Have ever thought about writing an article! You know we have several people who contributed to bowhunter magazine, Pope & Young and many other publications. You might want to ask them for help!

I know there’s several other mediums that you could use. Have you ever thought about videoing your hunt? Maybe, you could start YouTube channel?

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
timex, Very sorry. It’s obvious my lunch break did in fact offend you. Never asked wife about horns. But I do know she’s happy when she sees them because she knows I’m bringing home a lot more venison.

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
I only posted photos of my game & recipes after timex’s personal attack accusations that I waste meat. A picture says a thousand words. BTW chili was great. Couldn’t stop eating. The wife is from Sichuan so she like everything spicy.

I don’t video my hunts, but I do enjoy watching some that others post on YouTube, including your Georgia bruthas in Illinois.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Mar-22
My father was a self-proclaimed "meat hunter", yet he always managed to shoot the biggest buck in camp. When we questioned him about that apparent dichotomy, he'd always say, "if you're going to kill a deer for meat, why not the kill the biggest one you can?" ;-)

Matt

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-22
“ I only posted photos of my game & recipes after timex’s personal attack accusations that I waste meat.”

And the thread before that?

I am starting to see a trend in your behavior. you may need to talk to someone about that. They say that acceptance is the first step to recovery.

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
What thread you talkin about? I think you need to seek counseling for your love of the crossgun. The truth will set you free.

04-Mar-22
Who here at least occasionally hunts during the archery season with the long ranged scoped and cocked crossbow? Time to get this thread back on course.

04-Mar-22
And, who here has a long ranged scoped and cocked crossbow in the family, for use by others who do not have a real physical disability?

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-22
“ What thread you talkin about? ”

The big buck that was killed in your home state of Indiana thread.

From: RK
04-Mar-22
Missouri

I probably have several of just about any weapon you can name. I kill on average just over 90 deer a year, depending on contract work. I’ve probably killed a dozen or so deer of various species with a crossbow. Shot a new model about a week or so ago out to 150 yards. Pretty incredible weapon. Probably the most improvements in the last 10 years have been to crossbows and air guns

I use neither to any great degree as nothing is going to be more efficient to kill deer than a rifle

FYI I do leave the crossbows scoped but never cocked. No one else in the Fam. Uses them. My son only likes bird and predator shooting

04-Mar-22
150 yards is pretty amazing. The new crossbows are the ultimate for range and accuracy.

From: timex
04-Mar-22

timex's embedded Photo
Zim I do my big game hunting in the ocean. I'd like to see your wife put this fish head in a pot.
timex's embedded Photo
Zim I do my big game hunting in the ocean. I'd like to see your wife put this fish head in a pot.
Zim at this point nothing you could possibly type on this forum could possibly offend me. As for food or to be specific. I killed 12 deer my son killed 7 so 19 between the 2 of us is plenty of venison Gave some to the church that feeds the needy twice a week gave some to the Hispanic workers at the nursery. I'm perfectly content here in va killing all the whitetails I want during the winter and offshore fishing during the summer.

From: RK
04-Mar-22
I did not really answer the original question

For public land hunts I tend to side with there being seasons for each type of weapon. With the great strides in muzzle loaders and crossbows from a management standpoint I think they should be included with modern firearms

For private property regulations should be less stringent. Property owners are prone to do what they want anyway

Game Departments mission is to manage people and that leads to somewhat managing wildlife

From: PECO2
04-Mar-22
I tried a crossbow in Michigan while hunting the wife's family farm. Hated it. If and when I can no longer shoot a recurve or my old compound I'll just rifle and muzzle loader hunt.

From: PECO2
04-Mar-22
90 deer a year? All in Texas?

From: RK
04-Mar-22
Nope but mostly yes. Not pleasure hunting, management killing

From: Zim
04-Mar-22

Zim's embedded Photo
Zim's embedded Photo
I’m not sure how tuna fishing is back on track, but my nephew in Lewiston, Maine got this 700+ pounder last summer but I’m not so sure they are healthy to eat with heavy metals accumulating so many years. I prefer my walleye from Canada & the Maumee.

I got one rifle, one slug gun, one muzzleloader, and one handgun, all of which I very rarely shoot much less hunt with. Once every five years. I got zero crossguns and no need for one at this point of my life.

From: RK
04-Mar-22
Zim. You don’t have a need for a bad attitude either but you have one of those. Might as well get a crossbow

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
I have a great attitude about my upcoming year! Lol; April Maumee walleye, May IL/IN/WI turkey, June Canada fishing, Aug/Sept CO elk, Oct prolly another premium Western tag, Nov IL deer. And 12 months of hunting down Ravin lobbyist biatches.

From: RK
04-Mar-22
Not about your year. Just in general. Miserable person for sure

I’m sure the Ravin Lobbyist are shaking in their boots. Why don’t you chase down the corruption in the Illinois DNR

Do something useful

Oh, and how about your answer to my question on your qualifications to manage Any wildlife, what have you managed. State, acreage species etc

From: timex
04-Mar-22
Hey zim..... I just went back & read some posts I missed. You honestly believe that in the pic of the 2 deer I was implying that you waste game animals. For someone that's supposed to be so intelligent ya sure fudged that one.

I was implying that all you see & seem to be interested in is horns.

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
They would be if they found out how much coin I cost Utah SFW in 2012! lol. Cost me two empty death threats but I loved it and it was so worth it. That one act alone cost them well into the millions of dollars. Add ten years of their 10% commission on $30 million in tags. You add it up. Lol. No doubt I did more for the US sportsman in that one act than you will in your entire life. $30 million in tags saved from the auction block every year. Not just one. THAT is real management! Not the BS of Ravin greasing crooked legislators circumventing state DNR’s.

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-22
“ No doubt I did more for the US sportsman in that one act than you will in your entire life.”

I love me…

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
Sorry, just a fact. It was a unique situation and I took advantage of it. In the ten years that have passed, 5,000 of Arizona’s most valuable premium trophy hunt tags have been saved from the auction block for every US taxpayer to apply for. Many of these are BH sheep tags worth far North of six figures each.

What have you done? Oh ya………….nuthin.

From: RK
04-Mar-22
Zim

You are so full of Shit.

Absolutely incredible Whatever you were trying to sell NEVER happened and if it did YOU had nothing to do with it

From: RK
04-Mar-22
Pick it up Zim

Prove your words !!

Easy to do if you have the proof

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
Although it’s been ten years, all you have to do is Google 2012 AZ HB2072 and you can still find all the records you want. On top of that, I still have all my email records of it. Including with the KTVK reporter Crystal Cruz, who now works in LA. I’m truly sorry you are nothing but an elfin magic blowhard baking fudge packer cookies in yer hollow tree in a crappily managed deer state. But your first step is to accept you are a loser. Remember, the truth will set you free.

From: RK
04-Mar-22
Nice Zim. Personal attacks, classic nonesense. Pretty much ruined your credibility, if you ever had any.

Are you going to answer the questions or it that only reserved for you and your demanding Timex answer yours?

From: Zim
04-Mar-22
I already answered your question but you just don’t get reality and the way things work. Legislatively. Who makes game laws. Who manages. And who hunts the frauds down. Fish & Game Departments mean well, but if fact are powerless to do their jobs. You need to join IBA and watch what they do. They will cram Ravin’s bribe money and corrupt documents where the Sun don’t shine in Iowa. And I intend to help make dam sure of that. That’s MY game management. You can’t do it any other way these days. But you just don’t get it. All while you sit in yur hollow tree ..………not makin a difference. Just makin yur dam El Fudges.

You did nuthin to help me in 2012. And now yur gonna do nuthin in Iowa 2022. Letting the days go by………….

https://youtu.be/5IsSpAOD6K8

Same as it ever was.

From: Zim
04-Mar-22

Zim's Link
Same as it ever was.

From: Primus
05-Mar-22
Triple Fudge Paker bargain bundle. Elfin Majik!

P.

From: DanaC
05-Mar-22
At some point most threads pass the 'MHTL' point. I think it's happened here.

* More Heat Than Light

From: PECO2
05-Mar-22
Why single out Raven? What about the other crossbow companies? What about the compound bow companies that are now making crossbows?

From: Rocky D
05-Mar-22

Rocky D's Link
This is a real bowhunter!

From: Zim
05-Mar-22
"Why single out Raven? What about the other crossbow companies? What about the compound bow companies that are now making crossbows?"

Ravin sent no less than THREE full time paid lobbyists to the Iowa legislature last year at the same time, to lobby before the house. With one agenda. Crossgun inclusion in the archery season. I did not see any other companies do this, but my intent is to attack any that do. Right now they are public enemy #1.

From: Rocky D
05-Mar-22

Rocky D's Link
DP

From: PECO2
05-Mar-22
Raven does the dirty work, and the other companies sit back and rake in the $$$$$. Maybe the real bow companies should fight to keep crossbows out, so that they keep selling bows and making money.

From: Zim
05-Mar-22
Ya who knows who all is behind the dirt. They very well could take a collection plate but I'm not a lobbyist so I wouldn't know. The other mystery is how much money is being paid under the table to the bill sponsors. Sure some comes in the form of campaign contributions, like in AZ. But no doubt the big money is never seen. All you can do is attack the visible target which in Iowa's case is very likely to be Ravin Inc. again.

Here's two pieces of current legislation off the Bowsite Iowa forum. Oh joy, my two favorite................outfitter welfare and crossguns, Lol. What a start:

Contact your legislators & let them know how you feel. Yea or nay. HF 60 - Nonresident Licenses for Outfitters (A) - The bill requires the natural resources commission to reserve 500 of the nonresident antlered or any sex deer hunting licenses for nonresidents who have made a reservation with a hunting guide company which company is currently registered as a business entity with the secretary of state and has maintained registration since prior to July 1, 2020. If fewer than 500 nonresidents apply for a reserved license by the application deadline set by the commission, the excess reserved licenses shall be available for purchase in the same manner as other excess nonresident antlered or any sex deer hunting licenses. A nonresident shall include with the license application evidence that the reservation is scheduled for a time during which the license is valid. Not more than 35 percent of the issued reserved licenses and not more than 35 percent of the remaining licenses shall be bow season licenses.

Approved by subcommittee Our position is opposed, so many loopholes

HSB 158 - More Crossbow (A) - Under current law, a crossbow is a legal method of take when hunting deer during the late muzzleloader season, during bow season if the hunter is over the age of 70, or by certain individuals who are incapable of using a bow and arrow under the conditions in which a bow and arrow is permitted, with the applicable license depending on the situation. This bill allows a person hunting with a bow license during the late split archery season to use a crossbow.

Approved by subcommittee Our position is opposed

From: Whatthefoc
06-Mar-22
All game management arguments aside … I always thought crossbows in archery season was like crashing a party you weren’t invited to, and changing the music as soon as you got in the door.

This thread has kinda gone into the weeds with herd management and trophy management being tangled together. What I will say with respect is that Zim’s choice of weapon fits his values. Not the other way around … can you say the same?

From: timex
07-Mar-22
Wtf......so you believe a person's values, principles, morals, ethics etc can be judged by what weapons one chooses to hunt with.

Myself personally have to question a person's values that puts so much importance on the horns on an animal's head over the basic principles of what hunting has traditionally been. To me it's morally wrong to only value an animal for the horns on its head !!!

I don't disagree with Zim's logic on game management. However that logic must be considered on a regional basis. What is good management for one region is by no means a good management plan for another. Zims reluctantly to accept this fact is the reason this thread has gone to poop. Another thing Zim can't seem to grasp is certain species do best in certain regions. Ya want lots of big bass go to fla. Ya want lots of bears go to Canada. Ya want 160"+ whitetail go to the mid west. Yet Zim believes mid west states have big horned bucks because of management and management only.

From: Rocky D
07-Mar-22
WTF, here’s the problem in Indiana.

“ More Hoosiers used high-powered rifles to hunt deer last year, following a new state law that expanded the firepower allowed for hunting on private land.

But while the change made it easier for hunters, Indiana didn't see an increase in the number of deer harvested last year. The total was actually lower than the previous several years.

Those details were included in an Indiana Department of Natural Resources' annual report on white-tailed deer that was released earlier this month. ”

That’s why Zim’s argument falls on deaf ears.

The smarter choice would be to focus on the weapons capabilities and limitations to determine what season would be best for what weapon. Step into deer management and the issue goes south.

From: Rocky D
07-Mar-22

From: DanaC
07-Mar-22
"This bill allows a person hunting with a bow license during the late split archery season to use a crossbow. "

Should read, 'this bill allows ANY...'

'during the late split archery season'.

Yeah, for now. Remember the old saying about the camel's nose.

From: Zim
07-Mar-22
timex, Your interpretation of my personal philosophy and priorities are mixed up. Let me clarify in order of priority:

1. Let professional wildlife managers at each state’s DNR do their jobs and manage all species of wildlife based on their knowledge, with SOME limited input from residents as they see fit. Remove all control of wildlife management from corrupt politicians greased by special interest groups.

2. Ban outfitter welfare in all states. All public tags should go to taxpayers.

That’s it.

If these two basic policies were followed, 90% of what me and 95% of other sportsmen want would come to fruition naturally. That’s if corruption could be prevented from within the DNR’s. DNR’s would manage for a balanced age class in deer herds, because that's something they learn in wildlife biology 101 their freshman year in college. They don't learn to manage for turkey shoots.

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