The question of "fair chase".
Hogs
My question is...how does one define "fair chase"?
She can be buzzed but not drunk
@JohnMC that’s funny LMFAO
In real terms, the simplest definition would be legally harvested under state game laws, not inside a fence. JMO
It depends on who is defining it, and frankly is an irrelevant term for that reason. But I will define it as what is legal in the area one is hunting. I’m sure baiting will enter this discussion. It can be considered a fair chase issue. Baiting is not legal where I live in Mn, but is legal in Texas. And of course there are many states that allow or don’t allow baiting. Some will say baiting or food plots are not fair chase, and some will say the opposite. That debate and many other aspects around what is and is not fair chase will be around long after those that read this are dead. So, I’m back to fair chase is what’s legal. If a person wants to confine them self to more restrictive methods than are allowed, so as to meet their definition of “fair chase”, that’s fine. That’s their their definition of fair chase.
I do not define it, I simply use a little common sense when I go hunting hunt.
Agreed. Legal plays into it but usually not for defining fair chase. Swatting a duck swimming in the decoys is legal but I encourage jumping them first so they have a chance. If I am bowhunting ducks, then I throw that unwritten rule out.
A poacher stalking antelope with a self bow and no tag the day after rifle season ends is totally illegal but giving the game a way bigger chance than the guy who tipped over a buck the day before at 600 yards legally.
The lines between legal, fair chase, and ethical often get blurred, IMO.
John, can you define "buzzed" and "drunk", please. I may have been guilty of non-fair chase a few times, but I'm not really sure. ;-)
Matt
From the strictest sense it depends on what you want. This is how Pope-Young defines it:
The term “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice.
From any power vehicle or power boat.
By “jacklighting” or shining at night.
By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons.
While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures.
By the use of any power vehicle or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground.
By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached with the exception of lighted nocks and recording devices that cast no light towards the target and do not aid in rangefinding, sighting or shooting the bow.
Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.
'Legal' changes depending on local circumstances. What is legal in New Jersey might not fit Nevada. In the end, are you comfortable with 'legal' or do you feel that 'just because it's legal' doesn't mean it's right *for you.*
A couple years ago I hunted baited deer with a rifle. Perfectly legal there but I have no desire to go back. I know guys who go every year and like it. Not my cup of coffee is all.
Legal or not with all the Aids available to hunters of today real fair chase is NON EXISTANT. Game cams with direct feed to your phone, food plots to hold game on a property, Google earth, attractants, baiting (legal or not) & so many other "things".. That being said, I have no problem with any weapon or ways one chooses to hunt if legal, period or the age/size critter they take.. But, there is no true "fair chase", only what one defines as "fair". I mean, names for wild Deer & a hit list, Come on man (I stole that from Brandon um er Biden). Oh, a photo from the early 60s, that "was" fair chase. Me, in my "Vietnam camo" in the snow when it's zero & my 60# 60" Pearson Golden Soverign & killed him @ 15 yds with a Micro-flite #8 Fiberglass shaft tipped with a MA3 blade on THE GROUND without a blind standing in some Pines by intersecting trails.. Those were the days but I love my Compound with all it's trinkets & tree stands too. It's all hunting, even High Fence can be fair depending on the enclosure (that will get the eletists).
Pigs are smart and have a nose as good as any deer. When they are hunted hard , they go nocturnal just like deer. I hate them so much I don’t call much non-fair chase with pigs!
Most places that outfit to hunt hogs are not fair chase in the complete sense of the word. They have hog proof fences and regularly haul more pigs in to hunt. But I have zero issue with hunting them every way you can think of. If you enjoy it, go for it.
But then, on my place I shoot them and leave them lay. They are on the same plain as coyotes, but they actually cause more harm.
Legal to the state you’re hunting in, but it’s tricky. Baiting is illegal in Illinois, food plots aren’t but is that the same thing?? To some yes and to some no. Some say trail cameras give an unfair advantage to the hunter. And obviously, crossbows are the most unethical ultimate evil to fair chase;)
To everything else, I’d defer to JohnMC’s second post in the thread.
In the broad sense, fair chase means the animal has a chance to get away. Even with all the available technology, gear, posse of scouters, etc. the average hunts are still only about 10-30% hunter success. That's a lot better than 50/50, so seems "fair". Even so there's a lot of stuff that is legal but I believe makes things "too easy"...
I follow the law but my ethics aren't shaped by the government.
I have occasionally had to do the wrong thing to remain legal and the illegal thing to remain ethical.
JohnMC, What if it is the reverse and you get drunk while on the hunt and SHE takes advantage of you because you are drunk???
This brings back some horrible memories and is part of the reason for me giving up drinking.
Rock first off I have been married over 20 years so this all assumes we are talking before that. I am also assuming it was not much of a hunt or you would not have been getting drunk. Then it clearly comes down to what she looks like in the morning. It sounds like you went to bed at 2 with a 10 and woke up the next morning at 10 with a 2 and for that I am very sorry.
"John, can you define "buzzed" and "drunk", please. I may have been guilty of non-fair chase a few times, but I'm not really sure. ;-)"
Reminds me of how I met "She Who Must Be Obeyed".... Over forty years ago.
Bowbender it goes back to the rating thing. If normally you could score a 5 you might be able to land a buzzed 6. However if you got a chance and the score is more than 2 points above what you normally can land she definitely drunk.
I won't say any names but for a few of you if have a shot at all she is way to drunk.
no fence, no bait, no electronics, no trail cams, no electronic communication with anyone else regarding your quarry, no gun (seriously how is using a gun from a distance even fair chase when an animal can be shot 500+ yards and not smell or see you?) , not ozonics no camoflage (idealy you are wearing a loin cloth or naked), no mechanical broadheads, no wheels or cams on bow, no commercially manufactured limbs, no commercially manufactured broadheads, no commerially manufactured arrows.... So - hunt with a spear, or self made bow and self made arrows with a self made stone cutting tip, otherwise not really fair chase
Is buying drinks for your quarry considered fair chase? If not, I’m so guilty. That was 35 years ago, though, so definitions may have changed.
Matt.
1. ^..............What your eyes do when you had one too many....
2. As long as it's legal where you're hunting....that should be the definition of fair chase IMO.
I remember some less than fair chase as a younger guy, but I was generally the one lubricated. Vodka is a helluva tonic and it comes with a memorable hangover.
As for hunting our four legged quarries, fair chase (to me) means legally pursuing and taking wild game, mostly for the table, with exceptions for varmints. I don’t eat varmints.
If there was such a thing as fair chase, then you'd think I'd win at least half the time.
I've hunted a lot and never died so I'm not being too fair.
No bait, no cameras, no lighted sight pins, no waterholes, no ag field smaller than 60 acres and you cannot sit within 200 yards of a fruit bearing tree.
(In Val Kilmer’s voice, as Doc Holliday) Why LINK, you madcap !
How could something considered " fair chase " in the 1960's still be considered " fair chase " after all of the technological advancements? Especially since the advancements all benefit only one side of the chase. Seems we may have altered our standards of, " fair chase ". Could this be a form of " unconscious bias "?
I disagree that being legal makes something fair chase. Laws are often written around what the hunting community considers to be legitimate hunting.
Being legal just allows someone to do something without being sanctioned by the government. Abortion is legal, yet I'd wager that >50% of the people who read Bowsite think that it's "wrong."
I like P&Y's definition of fair chase and it reflects my ethic and view of hunting.
There will always be people who push the limits of what is fair chase for their own reasons. Just because they convince the government to allow them to do it doesn't necessarily make it feel right.
There is absolutely a point where it becomes too easy and IMO, it should be difficult as possible without being impossible.
Success as measured by dead animals should not be the driving force behind the definition of fair chase, IMO.
Remember, 200 yard shots with a compound bow, or any bow, are legal.
Here is a perfect example of the golden rule = The gent with the gold makes the rules. Or in this case the politicians bent them slightly !!!
In va baiting is illegal & I believe baiting waterfowl is against federal regulations. But in my area a common practice among those that can afford to do so is to build a dyked impoundment plant it with corn, Millett or sorghum or whatever else ducks like. Then once it's done growing flood the impoundment in the fall. And shoot the ducks & geese when the come & yes they come.
And this is perfectly legal & considered hunting naturally occurring agricultural practices !!!
Now some how some way some wealthy waterfowl hunters Figured out how to slide this one under the rug.
Funny how with all the technological advances in archery equipment, compound bows with 90% letoff, rangefinder, cell cameras, Ozonics, satellite scouting in the field, GPS, apps that tell us what to do when we see or hear an elk, etc, etc, ..pretty much everything Jack Harris listed, the bowhunting success rate in Colorado is basically the same as when I started bowhunting big game in 1970. And there are more than double the number of elk today. Were we better hunters back then, or are today's hunters crappier, relying too much on tech and YouTube and not enough on woodcraft skills?
An important variable in this state is the exponential increase in competition with less land to hunt (due to leasing and outfitting). So maybe all that tech just keeps the game level rather than tilting the playing field.
Are we worse because of things getting easier or did things getting easier make us worse?
Other than GPS and spots I steal off the internet, I use the same gear I did 30 years ago.
My success rate has slightly improved but I still throw plenty of unfilled tags in the drawer.
If I were you guys I would continue to fight to keep the next level of archery advancements out of Colorado archery seasons, that being the scoped and cocked crossbow. But then again, if it does not matter why be concerned with it?
“ Funny how with all the technological advances in archery equipment, compound bows with 90% letoff, rangefinder, cell cameras, Ozonics, satellite scouting in the field, GPS, apps that tell us what to do when we see or hear an elk, etc, etc, ..pretty much everything Jack Harris Listed……”.
I had you in mind Lou - hunting with self made bow arrows and broad heads, hunting naked or with just a loin cloth. Don’t be offended
I'm speaking for myself of course but I honestly don't see that things have changed that much over the years. I shot a round wheel 48" 80# hoyt pro vantage with pin sights & fingers for 10 years & killed plenty of deer. Then the next 10 years I shot a mild cam 44" 80# hoyt super slam with fingers. The next 10 years I shot a habu recurve 62" 62# @ 26" and didn't kill as many deer but we still had plenty of venison to eat. The next ten years I shot a bowtec 101st airborne. 44" 70# & radical cam. & release. And yes I killed a bunch of deer with that bow. One pin to 35 yards. But the fact is in all my years of bow hunting I've killed 2 deer at 50 yards. Somewhere around 10 at 40 yards. I'd say that easily 85% of the deer I've killed with a bow in the 45 years I've bowhunted have been inside 25 yards. And the 10 years I went trad only a few were past 20 yards.
I'm hunting with a 55# Oneida Phoenix now last Oct was just so hot I bow hunted very little. I killed 2 does the same evening one was 10 yards the other 15. Bow hunting is not about how far can you shoot its about getting close. Perhaps in different regions its different in the eastern hard woods high tec reality just doesn't change things that much imo
I have to agree timex. If you cannot see past 25-30 yards, all the high tech, long range gear has little relevance.
Is a scoped crossbow with 100 yard accuracy, used during BOW season, 'fair chase'? Is a muzzle-loader with 400 yard accuracy, used during 'primitive' arms season, 'fair chase'?
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against guns - when used during GUN season. And I like accurate weapons. I admire accurate shooting with any weapon. But when does 'hunting' get simplified down to merely showing up and shooting? That, for me, is where 'fair chase' has left the building.
If there was such a thing as " fair chase ", we would not need game laws, limited licenses and seasons. Fair chase is a man made, feel good phrase used and defined differently by individuals and groups to fit their narrative.
The Hog Forum is probably not the ideal spot for a fair chase discussion. If you live in an area with hogs you understand this.
I would guess you are right. Now, penning up farm raised deer, bison or elk for shooting purposes?
“Can be no fair chase over bait or records in any type of club taken over bait.“
I always get tripped up over this - does that apply to archery black bears or is it species-specific? Baiting black bears is by far #1 method for P&Y Black Bears. The percentage of P&Y Whitetails shot over bait ( like Pat’s slammer Ct buck in the blood trail challenge) are probably far less.
If someone wants to simplify their hunting "experience", then by all means, have at it.
But don't pretend your simplification should be the standard of others...
"Now, penning up farm raised deer, bison or elk for shooting purposes? "
That isn't hunting, it's a 'you slaughter it' trip to a meat market.
Timex - the 101st was no where near 44” ATA. I think more like 36”
John, you are correct. The 101st Airborne was 36 5/16”, same as my old 82nd Airborne.
I do believe legal plays into it but that also can be slippery. I for one believe the use of cellular game cameras should be outlawed during hunting seasons in all states. It has gotten out of hand!! Too many things to list as far as I am concerned!! Too many of todays generation of young hunters want instant success and do not want to actually to the prep and learn the skills of actually hunting!!
Beside the "legal" issue, you also know in your heart, "if its right, regardless if its legal.
