Summit Treestands
MT preference point cost doubles
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Pop-r 25-Feb-22
Mule Power 25-Feb-22
Zim 25-Feb-22
JL 25-Feb-22
Pop-r 25-Feb-22
Scrappy 25-Feb-22
Mule Power 25-Feb-22
Scoot 25-Feb-22
Missouribreaks 25-Feb-22
JohnMC 25-Feb-22
Scoot 25-Feb-22
Missouribreaks 25-Feb-22
WI Shedhead 25-Feb-22
WI Shedhead 25-Feb-22
Scoot 25-Feb-22
midwest 25-Feb-22
Missouribreaks 25-Feb-22
Scrappy 25-Feb-22
JohnMC 25-Feb-22
Pop-r 25-Feb-22
bghunter 25-Feb-22
JohnMC 25-Feb-22
JL 25-Feb-22
midwest 25-Feb-22
pav 25-Feb-22
Pop-r 25-Feb-22
Missouribreaks 25-Feb-22
WI Shedhead 25-Feb-22
Grey Ghost 25-Feb-22
JL 25-Feb-22
Zim 25-Feb-22
Scoot 25-Feb-22
SmokedTrout 25-Feb-22
redneck hunter 25-Feb-22
ohiohunter 25-Feb-22
nmwapiti 25-Feb-22
pav 26-Feb-22
Blood 26-Feb-22
Blood 26-Feb-22
Grey Ghost 26-Feb-22
Pop-r 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
JL 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
JL 26-Feb-22
Pop-r 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
JL 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
DonVathome 26-Feb-22
Grasshopper 26-Feb-22
Grunt-N-Gobble 26-Feb-22
Pop-r 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
Pop-r 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
Pop-r 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
DonVathome 26-Feb-22
Pop-r 26-Feb-22
Scrappy 26-Feb-22
Pop-r 26-Feb-22
Daff 26-Feb-22
JL 26-Feb-22
SmokedTrout 27-Feb-22
Mule Power 27-Feb-22
From: Pop-r
25-Feb-22
100% increase overnight. Smh.

From: Mule Power
25-Feb-22
I have the maximum number of points that I want in Montana. Zero. Their preference/bonus point system sucks. A price increase like that shows that they don’t care about the faithful people who have already been paying for points for many years. They are so stupid and blind it was probably their long term solution for point creep.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
Ditto Mule Power. I am in a lot of state systems, but I smelled a rat from day one in MT unfortunately. No regrets.

From: JL
25-Feb-22
I got that email too. What a crock. But....as I often say, until sportsmen who are members of national sportsman organizations demand these orgs get onboard to try and stop states from shaking down NR's with way overpriced license and point fees....it will only get worse. Shame on sportsmen and those organizations from across the country who idly sit by and let that happen.

From: Pop-r
25-Feb-22
We're outnumbered unfortunately. Pushes a fella to just go do as he pleases.

From: Scrappy
25-Feb-22
You can thank your local outfitters for all the NR DIY screwing going on. Outfitters suck suck suck.

From: Mule Power
25-Feb-22
Scrappy MOGA is mainly comprised of private land outfitters. They do nothing for a hard working “real” outfitter. My take from personal experience. Try not to generalize. They don’t all suck.

From: Scoot
25-Feb-22
The doubling of PP cost is the least of the screw job NRs are taking in MT. DIY guys are getting so screwed in MT is incredible. The outfitters assoc has ahold of the policy maker's ball sacks and the regs are clearly reflecting it. Take a look at the advantage the NRs who go with an outfitter are getting vs DIY guys. It's shameful and maddening as hell. Once my bonus points in MT get burned I'm pretty sure I'm done with that debacle.

I know.... I know... "goodbye and good riddance Scoot! Wish more people felt the same." It won't matter much but all I can do frome here is vote with my feet. Policies like these are so terribly short sighted and will certainly help in the death of hunting in the US. For those who think that's melodramatic or overstated, sadly you'll get to watch me proven right. And the guides and their association (and associated criminal-politicians) who rammed guide welfare down the DIY guy's throats will certainly be to blame for a chunk of it.

25-Feb-22
As a nonresident I do not mind the increased cost of preference points, nobody is forcing me to pay it.

From: JohnMC
25-Feb-22
I am not saying that raising cost for NRs is good or bad. But the truth is the amount of folks wanting to come west and hunt elk is much higher than the number that quality elk hunting can accommodate. State are either going to have to price people out, people are going to have to wait years to get tags, or there is going to be more and more overly crowded areas like CO OTC units. That is not the states doing that is simply supply and demand. No matter what done some are going to bitch and moan about it. Pop-r would complain about the denomination of the bills if you gave him a million dollars.

From: Scoot
25-Feb-22
Mbreaks, I don't mind an increase, but 100% is a jagged pill IMO. But like I said above, that's not my real concern with MT at all. People should educate themselves on the changes or their going to be very surprised and disappointed.

25-Feb-22
I agree it is 100% increase, but that is still only half a tank of gas for my truck. It all becomes relative.

From: WI Shedhead
25-Feb-22
For the big 3 too? That would be $200 a point

From: WI Shedhead
25-Feb-22
For the big 3 too? That would be $200 a point

From: Scoot
25-Feb-22
1) goodness gracious your truck has a huge gas tank!

2) it is all relative but to me there's a part of this that gets back to pricing out the average Joe (and yes I've heard all the arguments about that not really being the typical NR hunter) ... and that just piggybacks on the rest of the Fing of NR DIY hunters MT is doing.

From: midwest
25-Feb-22
"State are either going to have to price people out, people are going to have to wait years to get tags, or there is going to be more and more overly crowded areas like CO OTC units. That is not the states doing that is simply supply and demand."

Supply and demand should never affect the price of a public resource. Limiting tag numbers...yes.

25-Feb-22
The increase of 50 dollars is only about half a tank of gas in my pickup. I do not like the increase either, but it is not catastrophic to my overall hunting experience.

From: Scrappy
25-Feb-22
Comes down to your going to pay three hundred bucks for a random draw pretty much starting next year.

From: JohnMC
25-Feb-22
I mostly you agree with you midwest. However if hunting is important enough to you to be willing to go out of state or to want to hunt the once in a lifetime tags, it doesn't hurt that you got to have some skin in the game. For example, I like that CO now charges $50 for a sheep, goat and moose point. When it was just $3 dollar to apply I know of people that would draw a sheep tag and put about as much effort into it as I would a doe deer tag. However no one should be priced out of hunting their home state. If a dad wants to take their kid hunting no matter the state cost should not be what is preventing them from doing so. However I have less of a problem seeing it being expensive to go on a out of state hunt. Yes I live in CO and hunt here and would like to less NR hunters. I also hunt in other states and don't mind spend much more than the locals do. You are from Iowa a NR get a tag in 5 yearsish and it cost about as much as a elk tag to hunt a whitetail. That is supply and demand. I have no problem with that. That why Iowa arguably has the best deer hunting in the country.

From: Pop-r
25-Feb-22
Some people are just idiots and nothing will ever change that.

From: bghunter
25-Feb-22
So what is the cost then to say apply for elk in MT

From: JohnMC
25-Feb-22
Says the pot to the kettle

From: JL
25-Feb-22
If anyone cares to send them an email voicing your opinion either way...here's the address.

[email protected]

Here's their email from today.

Hunting and fishing license year begins March 1

The 2022 license year opens March 1, which means that is the day you can buy new hunting and fishing licenses and begin applying for permits and special licenses. The deadline to apply for deer and elk permits is April 1.

Applications for most species – deer, elk, antelope, deer B, elk B, antelope B, moose, sheep, goat, bison, bear, turkey – can be made beginning March 1.

This spring Fish, Wildlife & Parks will be launching the new MyFWP mobile app that will store and display licenses, permits, and digital carcass tags, known as E-Tags, which can be used in the field without cellular service. The new app will be released soon with more information on how to download and use it. To use the app, hunters and anglers will need a MyFWP account, which is a secure and convenient digital profile that stores licenses, permits and related information.

To create a new account, visit fwp.mt.gov. Users need to make sure to link their ALS number to the MyFWP account to ensure their hunting and fishing licenses are attached to their MyFWP account.

Hunters will also still have the option to print copies of licenses they purchase online or at FWP offices.

Also new for the 2022 license year:

Hunters have the option to donate their drawing refund to the block management program.

Bonus points can now only be purchased by applicants that are eligible to apply for licenses (bonus points can no longer be purchased by youth less than the age of 12). Preference points fee for nonresidents is now $100 instead of $50. A nonresident planning to hunt with an outfitter can purchase a second preference point for the Nonresident Combo drawing. Remember to have your outfitter information with you at the time you apply. Applicants purchasing a conservation license can now opt out of donating 25 cents of that fee to Search and Rescue.

Hunters and anglers can buy licenses and apply for permits on the FWP website beginning at 5 a.m. on March 1; simply click on “Buy and Apply.” Most FWP offices will be open from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday through Friday.

If people have questions, the FWP licensing call center will be open from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. from March 1 through April 1; after April 1, the hours will return to 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. The call center can be reached at 406-444-2950.

Remember, if you’re applying for a special license or permit, you will need to have a valid email address.

From: midwest
25-Feb-22
John, my point was a state can't raise their prices to what the market can bear like a private business. Their prices should reflect what the state needs to charge in order to cover their expenses and preserve the resource. Selfish me would gladly pay double, especially if it meant better hunting and less competition for good tags. But I'd rather more people were able to experience good hunting and I'd be willing to wait in line if need be.

From: pav
25-Feb-22
What turns my stomach is the fact Montana doubled preference point prices and lowered their actual value in one fell swoop. Never heard of "earning" two preference points per year in any western draw system? Montana outfitter clients can now do just that!

From: Pop-r
25-Feb-22
Yes Pav, welfare.

25-Feb-22
I am sure the state would rather have non resident hunters who support local Montana outfitters, who also support the Montana economy and pay taxes. The worst investment is the non resident who drives off with a trophy elk while leaving as little money as possible in the state. Think about economics carefully.

From: WI Shedhead
25-Feb-22
Johnmc-

U must be talking about residents paying $60 for big 3 tags in Colorado. It’s now $100 for nrs and the odds are 3 ten times worse now that they decreased the application price. I sent $7000 every year to Colorado to collect interest off of to increase my odds and that’s the thanks I got

From: Grey Ghost
25-Feb-22

Grey Ghost's Link
There's a lot more changes to Montana's hunting regulations than just the increase in PP fees. See link.

Matt

From: JL
25-Feb-22
Nick....as I recall from a previous conversation here....they get most of their money from NR's.

Maybe these agencies should to stop increasing the size of their bureaucracy and take a look at reducing some of the non-wildlife programs they have. Maybe they have too many people on the payroll to run too many programs (large budgets)? It could be a host of reasons...it doesn't really matter. Right now these agencies seem to be unchecked and running loose with the NR increases.

If a resource can sustain a harvest.....I can't see the agency cutting or limiting tags for R's and NR's. That is a revenue loss. I don't mind paying a little more as a NR vs a resident....it should be that way. However, IMO these agencies have gone too far with these increasing NR license costs and fees and need to be reeled in. If NR's don't speak up, they'll keep raising costs.

From: Zim
25-Feb-22
Used to have Montana as a plan B in case I didn’t draw anywhere else. But now it’s relegated to “bye bye”.

Comes down to supply & demand and I just have better options available.

From: Scoot
25-Feb-22
Midwest gets it. Some others... not so much.

From: SmokedTrout
25-Feb-22
MissouriBreaks "I am sure the state would rather have non resident hunters who support local Montana outfitters, who also support the Montana economy and pay taxes. The worst investment is the non resident who drives off with a trophy elk while leaving as little money as possible in the state. Think about economics carefully."

Not me. I would rather have DIY hunters over outfitters that lease up private land. Think about sportsman opportunity carefully, and the effects of having more income for land leasing outfitters.

25-Feb-22
For the sake of argument, does anyone think the ability to buy points in 15 states for 10 animals has "gummed " up the draws?

For some animals, if you don't start buying points when your a teenager, you will never catch up or have a chance to draw.

I get that folks like to "plan" their falls years in advance but would any of you support a truly random yearly draw with no points allowed?

And I'll add that the buying of points is a big money maker with no real cost to the state. Some are buying points they will never live long enough to use. Like buying a gift card that's never redeemed.

From: ohiohunter
25-Feb-22
Redneck, despite the glamour of a random no point system they will/can still reap the financial benefits. For example New Mexico, you have to buy a small game license to apply and if not drawn they still keep about $20 per app. Points vs random pretty much comes down to personal preference and what suites the persons situation. At least in a point system your odds increase over time to the point of 100% whereas random your odds may stay at 5% for life.

I do however feel for NRs some form of a weighted system is desirable simply for planning purposes. It sucks to think you can put in for NM for a lifetime and maybe never draw… or you could draw several times. With gohunt insider simplifying the process for all states the odds for all hunts will continue their downward trend despite a decreasing hunting population.

From: nmwapiti
25-Feb-22
As long as I can afford it, I'll keep playing the game. Since I live in Utah, the land of no opportunity, I have to pay through the nose to hunt bull elk most years.

From: pav
26-Feb-22
To be clear, I will be applying for Montana next week...and because I already have points, will be using the preference point option. It's not so much a $50 preference point rate hike that bothers me...but the fact this double preference point outfitter welfare reduces my DIY odds of drawing THIS YEAR. Went from pretty confident in the upcoming draw...to who knows? Again, Montana doubled the preference point cost and DEVALUED preference points for the DIY hunter at the same time.

From: Blood
26-Feb-22
Won’t this start a steady decline in the amount of guys buying pints in the future…..this increasing your odds if you stay in the game?

And I think you’ll see a bunch of guys dump their points in the next 1-2 years. Isn’t this good for odds at drawing in the future?

From: Blood
26-Feb-22

And I think you’ll see a bunch of guys dump their points in the next 1-2 years. Isn’t this good for odds at drawing in the future?

From: Grey Ghost
26-Feb-22
A 30% increase in total applications last year was the reason the Montana Outfitter and Guide Association used to secure more guaranteed licenses for themselves. They call it "license stability", which is also known as outfitter welfare. So, I doubt the increased PP fees is going to significantly reduce the number of applications.

MOGA was also able to reduce the requirements necessary to become a licensed outfitter in Montana, including reduced fees and no first aid training. More outfitter welfare.

Allowing outfitter clients to purchase a second PP was the last spit in NR DIY hunters faces. MOGA obviously has the state legislators by the short hairs. Sad to see a once great state for outdoorsman become what it is today.

Matt

From: Pop-r
26-Feb-22
Yes Matt, in just a few short years its went from a great opportunity to down the drain.

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22
Has anyone been studying how many pp it will take to draw this year. Been following a thread over on rokslide and according to several posts it will take 3 points to get drawn this year. What do you guys guess???

From: JL
26-Feb-22
Drawn for what? The NR Big Game Combo??? The NR Elk only?? Deer???

It wasn't too long ago when there were always leftover NR BG Combos after the draw. As our economy struggles and folks don't have that disposable income....and the high NR costs....we might see leftover NR BG Combo tags again one of these days. That would be funny in that NR's won't need to spend any money on points. The joke would then be on the FWP for jacking the NR point fee up in hopes of cashing in.

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22
I'm just looking to get an elk combo. The amount of people that didn't draw last year as well as the new outfitter pp is setting it up to no matter what tag you want it will take 3 points to draw. Hope I'm wrong.

From: JL
26-Feb-22
Gotcha.....good point! Any idea how many didn't draw last year?

From: Pop-r
26-Feb-22
I believe you'll have a really good chance with two points. 3 will be 100%. (For elk and big game combos that is)

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22

Scrappy's Link
it was 99.98%, only 1 person with 2 didn't draw if I'm not mistaken. I have two now and I'm worried 3 wont make it this year with the Outfitter point addition to everyone that will apply this year having 1 point, purchasing a point AND adding an outfitter point to match my 3 points...there was 15,595 people with 1 point last year and 5,413 received a tag, so that means there are 10,182 people that APPLIED last year that can have 3 points this year. Not to mention the people, like me, that didn't apply at all....3 point wont be 100% this year. I hope my math is wrong....Just with the Big Game combo...

Above is from one of the post from over on rokslide which I added the thread here. If correct 3 points won't be a 100% this year.

From: JL
26-Feb-22
I drew last year with 0. Now I'm curious how this year will turn out.

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22
When you don't buy pp you fall into the 25% pool. At this point you may have better odds of drawing.

From: DonVathome
26-Feb-22
I did not check but how many "same as the rest of the states" justifications have been posted:)

We are not stopping this but it is not right. Almost nothing we can do. I am making a big effort to eliminate 1 state per year from my application. I am also eliminating a least a couple species per year from an app. For example I in Utah no more general deer point.

90% of my hunts are on national forest. No I do not want the feds managing elk & sheep. I have not seen any reason I agree with for NR to get 10% of tags and pay 90% of state budgets - to hunt 80% on federal land.

I can afford this and it benefits me with better draw odds. I will be the first to say it is NOT fair.

From: Grasshopper
26-Feb-22
But you can opt of of the 25 cent search and rescue fee...

Been a long time since I applied in MT. Sad deal, another one crossed off my list. My list is getting really small, my days of being a nonresident somewhere are likely over.

26-Feb-22
So if I'm understanding this correctly, if I bought a pp last year in the fall and DONT apply for a tag this year, I loose my point?

From: Pop-r
26-Feb-22
Scrappy im not sure how you figure the ones that had one point last year jump to three this year unless they enter the outfitter pool. I can't imagine 10k+ new people are going to sign outfitting contracts. So therefore most of those will have 2 points this year. Furthermore, i'm not sure your info is correct as I believe there are 17k NR elk tags total disbursed between elk combos, big game combos, etc.

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22
Grunt-N-Gobble yup if don't apply every year starting this year you will loose your pp.

From: Pop-r
26-Feb-22
After studying your post again I'm not sure you understand the MT process. The only way you do is if you were that one person you say didn't draw. I haven't studied the data so I am not sure if it's correct or not. You come out of the draw with the same points you went in with unless you draw and then of course you come out with zero. You buy your points as you apply and it immediately becomes a point then. (Excuse me if I misunderstood your understanding.) Im afraid you may have 2 points this year thinking you have 3?

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22
Pop- r those are not my numbers I just copied and pasted from the link I included. What I got out of those numbers is there is a guarantee that over 10,000 folks will be applying with at least 2 pp. With the rules of loosing your pp if you don't apply and the outfitter extra point I can't see there being very many tags left after all the 3 pp holders get drawn. For sure a lot of unknowns this year.

From: Pop-r
26-Feb-22
IF there was only one person last year that didn't draw with two then there's only one person this year with three outside of the outfitter pool.

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22
Sorry I'm not good at explaining myself. I have one point and I will buy a second when I apply for 2 total along with over 10,000 other folks. The unknown numbers are from how many folks are going to be jumping in this year so they won't loose their pp as well as how many will be buying the extra outfitter point. My gut feeling is very few or none with 2 point will be drawn this year and for sure none with 2 points starting next year. Or your right and I'm confused as he!! which when it comes to Montana could very well be true.

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22
Your not taking into account for the folks that didn't apply last year but where sitting on their points. It's an unknown number but I bet it is quite a few folks. We will just have to wait and see.

From: DonVathome
26-Feb-22
Guys did they increase the cost for sheep and mnt goat?

From: Pop-r
26-Feb-22
Scrappy are you applying with an outfitter this year?

From: Scrappy
26-Feb-22
Bite your tongue pop-r, how dare you even think I would give my money to a nasty outfitter.

From: Pop-r
26-Feb-22
There's not going to be a majority of applicants apply with an outfitter. I still think your chances are decent this year with 2.

From: Daff
26-Feb-22
As a NR DIY hunter, I just want to know one thing didn't they just a few years ago ditch the outfitter welfare system? Why would they revive it oh yea $$$. I've been hunting MT since the 90's they never miss a chance to stick it to the nonresidents! In all that time I've never taken home a TROPHY bull despite many trips to breaks. I'd be willing to bet if and when I get a TROPHY bull I will have contributed more money to their economy than any outfitted client. Think about it gas, groceries, rental SUV, tires, licenses, preference points, bonus points, souvenirs. I've made a lot of memories which are priceless! Eventually age or cost will take me out of game! wonder which one it'll be? just rambling and commiserating hopefully I and my brother will get out there this fall.

From: JL
26-Feb-22
"90% of my hunts are on national forest. No I do not want the feds managing elk & sheep. I have not seen any reason I agree with for NR to get 10% of tags and pay 90% of state budgets - to hunt 80% on federal land."

Don...great way to express that.

From: SmokedTrout
27-Feb-22
DonV I think his only pertains to preference points. Bonus points for MSG are $20 for non-residents, not sure what they were in the past. For the drawing the MSG fee is $50 for nonresidents, and if you draw the tag costs $1250

From: Mule Power
27-Feb-22
This will result in better hunting? What are you smoking? Who is successful in a drawing has no bearing on that. I’m calling bullshit other than the fact that like any business they can set prices however they want. THAT is the ONLY factor. Just remember businesses can also price themselves out of business. Or just do business with the rich or stupid.

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