Summit Treestands
Utah Limiting Number Of Guides
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
brettpsu 28-Feb-22
elkmtngear 28-Feb-22
Treeline 28-Feb-22
midwest 28-Feb-22
Grey Ghost 28-Feb-22
bigswivle 28-Feb-22
TREESTANDWOLF 28-Feb-22
200 28-Feb-22
JL 28-Feb-22
smarba 28-Feb-22
RK 28-Feb-22
HDE 28-Feb-22
Tracker 28-Feb-22
YZF-88 28-Feb-22
Aspen Ghost 28-Feb-22
YZF-88 28-Feb-22
Dikndirt 01-Mar-22
Aspen Ghost 01-Mar-22
DanaC 01-Mar-22
DanaC 01-Mar-22
Sivart 01-Mar-22
Jaquomo 01-Mar-22
smarba 01-Mar-22
Grey Ghost 01-Mar-22
JL 01-Mar-22
KHNC 01-Mar-22
smarba 01-Mar-22
Brotsky 01-Mar-22
Bowbender 01-Mar-22
Cheesehead Mike 01-Mar-22
Twinetickler 01-Mar-22
Scoot 01-Mar-22
DanaC 01-Mar-22
'Ike' (Phone) 01-Mar-22
Norseman 01-Mar-22
Missouribreaks 01-Mar-22
JL 01-Mar-22
BC173 01-Mar-22
BC173 01-Mar-22
Bowbender 01-Mar-22
TreeWalker 01-Mar-22
Grey Ghost 01-Mar-22
JL 02-Mar-22
Bill in MI 02-Mar-22
Bowbender 02-Mar-22
Rockbass 04-Mar-22
Grey Ghost 04-Mar-22
8point 04-Mar-22
8point 04-Mar-22
Norseman 04-Mar-22
HDE 04-Mar-22
From: brettpsu
28-Feb-22

brettpsu's Link
I was away for a couple weeks. I didn't see anything posted about this but if it was already posted please ignore.

Seems like a great idea to me. I despise seeing the trophy pics with 10 guys standing over a kill.

From: elkmtngear
28-Feb-22
I like it.

Not exactly "fair chase", when an Army of guides and scouts is involved in the kill (like "Spiderbull"). Just my opinion

From: Treeline
28-Feb-22
Gonna be a tough one to enforce, but all for the concept.

From: midwest
28-Feb-22
Good luck enforcing that.

From: Grey Ghost
28-Feb-22
Jimmy John is bummed.

From: bigswivle
28-Feb-22
Billionaire problems lol!!!

28-Feb-22
They could issue an assistance license to each tag holder. So for every kill tag there would be say 5 licenses for assistants.

They would need to show them if found to be glassing or assisting in any way. Of course people could and will cheat as they do now. All over the country

28-Feb-22
It would be nice to limit Unpaid assistance also. No uncles, cousins, step cousins of my wife’s side grandpas nephew

28-Feb-22
I’m hopeful it works.

I never got the 13 plus people behind the animal pic anyway.

From: 200
28-Feb-22
One license one meat humper only! FJB

From: JL
28-Feb-22
Maybe limit the number of outfitters leasing up ranches in the western states.......just thinking out loud there.

From: smarba
28-Feb-22
Money talks. What is the driver for this? Rest assured it has nothing to do with "fair chase". Perhaps it's the Outfitters who are behind this to keep paid spotters from competing with them? Gotta be some reason for the change.

From: RK
28-Feb-22
Yes blame outfitters again. Braid brush. Similar to what the Nazis did to the Jews. Every negative issue with hunting these days is due to outfitter interference

Got to have that scape goat

From: HDE
28-Feb-22
What has brought on too many helpers? LE and OIL tags that take 25 years to draw with the real possibility of shooting a 190" muley, a 380" bull, or whatever inch whatever animal.

UT did it to themselves, just don't correct it at the expense of ordinary people that go with a friend, sibling, or cousin that draws with a total in the hunting party that number 2 or 3.

Place the blame where it belongs on the flatbrimmers trying to make a name for themselves. I like the bill.

From: Tracker
28-Feb-22
Well all the outfitters getting big dollars are going to have a buffer time locating them. Might even have to work for a living. Im sure there will still be some under the table payments going on.

From: YZF-88
28-Feb-22
I like all the bills this guy has brought to the plate! Too bad these good improvements have been brought through legislation. With a system so corrupt as Utah, there doesn’t seem to be another avenue.

From: Aspen Ghost
28-Feb-22
So a state goes through the trouble of developing an ultra-premier unit. Such a unit holds trophies that are unimaginable to a common hunter. Such a unit requires that a hunter invest decades of time (and money) to maybe one-day finally succeed in getting a permit.

When the hunter finally gets the coveted, once in a lifetime, dream permit the state expects the hunter to treat it just like any old regular tag? I'm sure those units must be a zoo. But what does the state really expect? They created the monster.

From: YZF-88
28-Feb-22
You have to see it to believe it man. It’s a shit show.

From: Dikndirt
01-Mar-22
Good intent but will be a nightmare to enforce. I am not in favor of Legislation introduced by state legislators who are far away from the front line…. Influenced by special interest groups. Opening up a can of worms that will be hard to stop.

From: Aspen Ghost
01-Mar-22
The law seems to say a hunter can have only one guide during the hunt. So once a guide takes a client out, the outfitter can't assign client a new guide even if the first guide is sick or for any other reason. Or say the outfitters best guide gets his assigned client an elk day 1 or 2, Outfitter can't rotate this guide to another client for day 3 or 4 because hunter can only have 1 guide. Hopefully that is not correct.

From: DanaC
01-Mar-22
There's an old saying that 'the rich aren't like you and me, they have more money.'

I guess it's nice that you can hire an 'outfitter' who leases several thousand acres, and who employs not only guides and wranglers but 'scouts' who go out and keep tabs on the best critters on the lease. Fly in, get hauled out to the pre-selected ambush, and shoot.

A few years back I did the 'poor man's' version of this myself, shooting deer from blinds down south. Not quite the same, but the outfit had cameras watching every bait pile, knew which ones were most active, so they could rotate us into productive stands.

So what's difference between having three dozen trail cams set out or a half dozen guys with optics on the ground? Besides 'more money' ?

I guess we need to realize that wildlife, whether it's small whitetails or trophy bucks and bulls, are a 'commodity' now. Like meat. And most of us ain't dining on marbled wagyu beef tonight.

From: DanaC
01-Mar-22
PS I'm not resentful, I GET that the folks that can afford this have mostly busted hump for decades so they could. It just saddens me to think that hunting in the USA is becoming a 'luxury item' similar to fine watches and fancy wines.

From: Sivart
01-Mar-22
I'm all for this change.

From: Jaquomo
01-Mar-22
Dana, cameras don't slash tires, block roads, intimidate and threaten regular guy hunters, pay "finders fees", pay guys to literally dog a bull or buck for a month before the hunt starts.

On my OIAL elk hunt, that battery of cameras around a waterhole got to watch me shoot my bull. Didn't bother me or him one bit.

From: smarba
01-Mar-22
RK I didn't say "it's the Outfitters". I just said MAYBE. All I was asking is what was the reason behind this change? It likely relates to $ somehow, because rules rarely get made just because something sounds good.

Maybe they could simplify the rule that if you can't fit yourself and entire scouting posse behind the trophy, it's too many LOL

From: Grey Ghost
01-Mar-22

Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
I don't know of any truly dedicated hunters who would want to be a part of a fiasco like this, much less pay for it. I don't care how big the animal is, or how much money they may have.

Matt

From: JL
01-Mar-22
Matt,

Playing devils advocate. How should a rich person hunt who has a busy schedule and can only dedicate a short number of days to hunt?

John

From: KHNC
01-Mar-22
They should just stick to buying hookers instead. ^^^

From: smarba
01-Mar-22
Grey Ghost...yep, there's too many to fit behind that trophy. Either need really skinny guides or less of them LOL. And the shooter needs to fit too, so if they're fat that further reduces the allowable number of guides!

From: Brotsky
01-Mar-22
JL...we all have busy schedules and not as much PTO as we would like.

Unless you're Treeman of course.

From: Bowbender
01-Mar-22
"How should a rich person hunt who has a busy schedule and can only dedicate a short number of days to hunt?"

Well holy McShit! Busy schedule, limited time....Sounds like most people I know. And hint...they ain't rich.

01-Mar-22
When I see those huge elk hunting entourages and all those people posing with the kill I think to myself that's the last thing I would want no matter how long I waited or how much I paid. In fact to me, all the hoopla and all those people would just diminish the experience. The more rare and valuable the tag is, the more I would want to keep the entire experience pristine. I guess I must be anti social...

From: Twinetickler
01-Mar-22
That picture isn't even in Utah. I've spent a lot of time on premier limited entry units. Is there an issue? Maybe, but not nearly as bad as what is portrayed. The real issue is putting our management through legislation. Sneider isn't doing the diy average Joe hunter any favors. Limiting opportunity, limiting who can go, limiting how to hunt. C'mon that's garbage. Changes need to be made, but not through legislation.

From: Scoot
01-Mar-22
RK, are you an outfitter?

FYI- it hardly seems fair to call outfitters a scapegoat at this point when their association(s) is clearly and directly cavorting to completely screw over NR DIY guys. Outfitters can't play innocent and ignorant to the welfare they are receiving. "I'm just a hard working regular Joe myself" doesn't pass muster when the person who says that takes the welfare earned by their association's unscrupulous efforts gained through being financial bed fellows of the state's politicians. You can't have it both ways.

From: DanaC
01-Mar-22
"Changes need to be made, but not through legislation. "

I've long followed the wildlife management 'processes' here and in a few other nearby states. Seems like, when the F&G does something some hunters don't like, they cry to the legislature to 'fix' it. Then when others don't like the law, they whine that 'decisions should be left up to F&G.'

D* if you do, d* if you don't.

01-Mar-22
Just do like AZ, say they're all friends and family.... :')

From: Norseman
01-Mar-22
If you don’t have a tag and are not with the tag holder for the current hunt, and you purposely bump elk you could be interfering and hit with harassment? And no more radio or cell phone updating a Hunter in the field as well.

01-Mar-22
This is a non issue.

From: JL
01-Mar-22
"Well holy McShit! Busy schedule, limited time....Sounds like most people I know. And hint...they ain't rich."

Holy leapfrog BB....how many days a year do you hunt?

From: BC173
01-Mar-22
^^^^^^ What Cheesehead Mike said.

From: BC173
01-Mar-22
^^^^^^ What Cheesehead Mike said.

From: Bowbender
01-Mar-22
"Holy leapfrog BB....how many days a year do you hunt?"

Remind me how that is any of your concern? And when I do get out, I do it myself. Did that answer your seemingly condescending question?

From: TreeWalker
01-Mar-22
Is it illegal to be on public land bird-watching during elk season? Honest people don't need laws to do the right thing and the rest of the people will do everything to not have a law enforced against them. The fact so many hunters show up to drool over Spiderbull-type mounts that had a small army spot and track the animal until the shooter shows up, has the animal pointed out for them and they pull the trigger. I mean, heck, you can fly in a chopper to the top of Mount Everest but is not the same as having risked death to climb to the summit. Is your story to tell but know some of us shake our head and know the difference between earning something vs. buying something. I know who I want to share a cold adult beverage with to hear about their adventure but to each his or her own.

From: Grey Ghost
01-Mar-22
Amen, Treewalker.

Matt

From: JL
02-Mar-22
BB...don't be so sensitive. Everyone gets out and hunts when they can...some more than others. Those that can hunt a lot do. Those that can't hunt a lot make the most of it when they do. If they have the money to hire a bunch of scouts...have at it. It's their money, their hunt and their memory. That's the direction I was heading playing devils advocate in my first post. I wouldn't hunt with a big crew like that. Most of my hunts are by myself.

From: Bill in MI
02-Mar-22
Having had a UT Pauns rifle tag before I can attest to the posse reality. A half a dozen guys scouting and each glassing from prominent spots indicating they 'have a hunter down there' when in reality they are just glassing effectively blocks you out. Now, I could have been a dick and hunted those spots or sat and glassed myself but I chose to move on. I knew the deal when I drew the tag. Regulating paid numbers of guides vs family and friend participation feels like a slippery slope IMO.

From: Bowbender
02-Mar-22
"BB...don't be so sensitive."

Not sensitive at all. But having 10-20 guys running interference, directing the "hunter" to the bull, if you can't see that pretty much violates every tenant of fair chase... It would be like paying 10 guys to have foreplay with your wife for two hours, step in for the money shot, then claim to be a rock star in the bedroom... You know, for the memories. Looks like pimps, johns and whores can be found in hunting as well.

From: Rockbass
04-Mar-22
Bowbender...that is my LAUGH for the day. Thank you.

From: Grey Ghost
04-Mar-22
Now THAT was funny, Tom!! LOL.

Matt

From: 8point
04-Mar-22
Why not create a pool of guides one of which will be drawn at random, won't be known until the client selects a date. Just pie in the sky I guess.

From: 8point
04-Mar-22
Why not create a pool of guides one of which will be drawn at random, won't be known until the client selects a date. Just pie in the sky I guess.

From: Norseman
04-Mar-22
This “john” has called many a cow elk a whore for busting my stalk. So yes…they are out there. Have yet to use a pump yet, though

From: HDE
04-Mar-22
The Spider Bull is about the most freak-ugly set of antlers I've ever seen.

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