Contributors to this thread:
Insert / outsert
Building some new arrows since the ones ive used for years are not being made anymore. I have settled on Easton 5mm Axis. My total weight will be around 525ish which is exactly what I want. Getting there, I have options though... 100g vs. 125g head. And then I would go with an insert or a "half out" outsert. These also come in brass, steel, and aluminum with varying weights. I can get the total arrow weight that I want a number of ways so really the decision I have to make is whether I want an insert or a half out and then what type of material I want that to be. Im not interested in other arrows so please refrain from going down that rabbit hole. Can you guys shed some light on inserts vs. half outs and then steel vs. aluminum vs. brass? Thanks!
Lots of bad internet info on the Hit inserts. They are excellent if installed correctly.
A longer insert is better as it derives its straightness from the shaft itself. A thick epoxy is critical- the one they provide has worked well for me.
Clean the inside of the shaft with 90% alcohol and a Q tip. Let dry. An even coating of epoxy matters for best straightness, spin slowly and get an even layer. Use the insert tool as directed and lay the shafts flat to cure.
You have to run the ends on a jig and the chamfer stone to get perfectly square and a solid mating surface. I use a jig with 220 or 320 sandpaper. Arrows right off the saw have what look like hairy ends when viewed under a microscope.
The std inserts are good…as are the longer break off inserts, use whatever but don’t get in an underspined condition with BHs. Stiff tunes fine in a modern compound.
I have Axis 300 with 50gr brass HIT insert. ZERO issues in many years.
Just lurking, but I’m curious. I’ve never really thought about it, as I shoot carbons. Is it possible, or do they already, tap an aluminum shaft, and use a metal/plastic male threaded insert? We do it for broad heads…?
I have a feeling I’m about to find out how old school I am!
I hate the HIT inserts but much prefer them over a half out. I now install them with the point or broadhead screwed into the insert almost all the way then apply hot melt on the whole shebang. I also use an impact collar over the end before installing.
If I need to swap out the point, I just dip it in boiling water for a hot minute and they pull right out.
I shoot Axis 5mm and use only the HIT insert. The outserts can be a pain to install and aren’t as durable as the insert imo. I’d get some Iron Will impacts collars. Work great for me.
Wanted to bring this post back. I have the HIT inserts from iron will and the impact collars on the 5mm 300 Axis. I can’t see what the collars do when you hit something hard…. IE a tree, rock, wood, etc. The arrow still mushrooms and the FP pushes the IC down the shaft.
I’ve also seen the Easton stainless outserts and how nicely they fit into the arrow. So I’m interested in these over the HIT.
Does anyone have any info on using both? Thanks.
Left; milled, Right is just off the saw.
Left; milled, Right is just off the saw.
If you look at the ends of a carbon arrow right off the saw through a microscope you will see The irregularity and the fine splintering. Not good. Even in my cell phone picture that I posted you can see it with the naked eye.
The end of a 5mm axis is exposed and contacts the point or BH. Right off the saw these carbon shafts have an imperfect surface for good mating with a BH. This can cause a weaker connection and/or wobble in your BHs- bad. The collars enclose the ends of the carbon, which is good but you still need to mill the ends of the carbon to square and even it up.
I run mine on a home made squaring jig with 220 or 320 sandpaper and It definitely makes these stronger as I see much less breakage and better BH alignment since I started doing that about 20 yrs ago. I’ve tried outserts but have not found them any more durable. These axis assembled properly have been almost indestructible - very durable.
It’s hard to beat HITs and Iron Will collars. I’ve never had a problem using HITs. I’ve always sanded and cleaned them before epoxy. I install the inserts with the broadheads attached so I can spin them.
I like how the arrow stays together. But…..
I like how the arrow stays together. But…..
Thanks. I don’t think the IW collars do what they say. They don’t cover the whole arrow. If they were tight against the ferrel they would do better. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
I’m looking at the Ethics insert - outsert with the sleeve. I’m finding all kinds of positive reviews using this system vs anything else. Does anyone have some experience with this system and hard impacts etc.? Thank you again. Keep shooting straight.
If you failed with Iron Will your beating a dead horse with Ethic. Outserts are way worse than HITS. From a lot of experience.
I’ve had good luck with the Ethics outserts. I haven’t had many bend. If I have bent any the shaft usually was broken. I also have some of the Ironwill collars and they make for a slick setup. If your using hidden inserts then the Ironwill collars are they way to go
I’ve been shooting the Axis 5mm for quite a few years. The HIT system is definitely the weak link. But by adding a sleeve or footing, they become one of the toughest shafts out there. Outserts actually only add more leverage to break out the side wall of the shaft, IMO being worse than the HIT with nothing.
Since I can, I make footers for all my shafts and for some buddies too. If I couldn’t do that, I’d spring for the Iron Will sleeve system. From an engineering perspective, I don’t think you could do better.
I use the same components/adhesive as Midwest but use the Iron Will tool to seat the HIT's.
Matt, recognize that broadhead?
Probably, reverse snowbird?
“Probably, reverse snowbird?”
I used Rage’s for bears so this spring so I could save the good, made in the US Spitfires you sent me.
Long broadheads like the Spitfire can exert a lot of leverage on the shaft’s sidewall and a collar over comes that.
I thought about going down the rabbit hole of outserts and collars. With the cost of all the components I just couldn’t justify it. If I hit something hard in an animal then I figure that arrow and broadhead toast anyways. I stick with a 50 grain brass HIT, 125-150 grain broadhead and call it good. I never use epoxy either. Just a good hot melt glue.
The HIT insert system is a disaster waiting to happen. And the IW collars we've seen come into the shop don't fit as well as they should. Ethics Archery and Fire Nock make a lot better system, something designed to work together to enforce the tip end, instead of something like the IW collars that are basically a band aid. There is a reason why several arrow manufactures don't want hot melt used on their arrows. Too hot of an insert pushed into a carbon shaft weakens the shaft. Seen it happen a bunch of times. Can't understand why someone would want to use hot melt on a HIT insert in the first place.
"Can't understand why someone would want to use hot melt on a HIT insert in the first place."
Some like to be able to index BH's or even remove inserts without damaging the shaft, so heat reversibility is a nice feature.
Not directly applicable but using 4mm Carbon Injexions I’ve found the following to very durable shooting a 65# @ 29” draw compound: I install the stock Easton supplied stainless steel 22 gr Deep-6 insert pushed in with their tool and glued in with the supplied epoxy. I then install a Firenock aluminum outsert glued on with Bohning Fer-l-tite hot melt. The combo of insert and outsert has proven very durable, as well as adjustable with a bit of heat on the outsert to get perfect broadhead alignment (as Matt says). Also allows me to use regular 8-32 threaded broadheads vs the much weaker Deep 6 broadhead shanks as well.
You might use a similar system with good results on the 5mm Axis shaft…although the combo would be heavier.
"I install the stock Easton supplied stainless steel 22 gr Deep-6 insert pushed in with their tool and glued in with the supplied epoxy. I then install a Firenock aluminum outsert glued on with Bohning Fer-l-tite hot melt. The combo of insert and outsert has proven very durable, as well as adjustable with a bit of heat on the outsert to get perfect broadhead alignment (as Matt says). Also allows me to use regular 8-32 threaded broadheads vs the much weaker Deep 6 broadhead shanks as well. You might use a similar system with good results on the 5mm Axis shaft…although the combo would be heavier."
Help me understand... is the Deep 6 insert just there to take up the space immediately behind the threaded portion of ferrule and provide some support to the shaft wall over that section?
I don't shoot the Axis arrow. Instead, I shoot a .166 arrow with a stainless steel insert that has a portion of the insert within the shaft and a portion outside the shaft. I have had good luck with these. Hope you find what you are looking for in arrow components.
SaddleReaper, The Deep 6 insert is purely put in to strengthen the front of the carbon arrow shaft in my case. It also provides 22 gr of additional weight and increases the FOC. The D-6 insert is installed about 1/4" beyond the end of the carbon shaft and is 1" long. The outsert covers 9/16" of the end of the shaft.
I am not a fan of the Deep-6 system using 6-40 threaded components as the broadhead shanks are very small and weak....about 1/2 as strong as a regular 8-32 threaded broadhead made from the same material. Also the D-6 system does not protect the end of the shaft like the outsert system.
I've never had a tougher more durable arrow system than this one where the inside of the carbon arrow shaft is reinforced, as is the outside of the shaft with the outsert. And the arrow shafts already came with the stainless steel D-6 insert and epoxy to glue them in. In fact my first outserts were installed on some arrows I was shooting D-6 broadheads and field points previously...and not happy with the results. The outserts over the D-6 insert eliminated the shortcomings so I've kept using them for the past 8 years. The Easton Carbon Injexion shaft was replaced by the 4mm Axis shaft last year...I have no experience or comment on them.
If you like .204 arrows the HIT system is the only way to go in my opinion. I love .204 arrows, but still choose to shoot .246 arrows simply because the internal component system is much more fool proof to me. I played with all of the thin shafts and don't shoot well enough to see a difference in flight and my standard diameter arrows have never been a limiting factor on my killing stuff. They still work as well as ever.
To me, using hot melt on the HIT inserts is practical to allow for removal, but impractical with respect to integrity. A solid bond between the insert and the shaft wall is needed to resist hard impact. If that bond is broken you get damage like in the picture Blood posted. I have never played with the footers or collars, so correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see how they provide anything other than lateral support. The collar would resist the leverage force from a broadhead causing the threads to split out the side of the shaft. If you shoot .204's...it is the best system going as I would never choose the half outs or anything with an outsert. In my limited experience all of these half outs or outserts end up bending over time. Some of them bend just shooting into a bag target.
"I have never played with the footers or collars, so correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see how they provide anything other than lateral support."
On the IW collars, there is a lip that covers a portion of the front of the shaft, so they provide some additional protection from the point/insert being pushed into the shaft - similar to the shoulder on a standard internal .246 insert does. The hole in the end of the collar is wider than the ID of the shaft so they do not provide as much coverage as they could, but they certainly add some strength to resist the insert being pushed back into the arrow.
What you see in the picture above is that shoulder on the collar having been bent out (that is what that bulge at the front of the collar) and the splintered shaft pushing up between the collar and the ferrule of the field point. While that impact certainly resulted in an arrow failure, I would much rather see that than the insert being pushed out the side of the shaft which would have been more likely absent the collar.
The gap is shown here.
The gap is shown here.
Yup. Here’s an IW collar. They do not cover the whole lip of the shaft….it’s their weakest point. IW claims they do this on purpose because a lot of broadheads have a flared ferrule and it sits better on the carbon…..I think it’s BS, because you can use a broadhead wrench to tighten down as hard as you can…..eliminating the need for a gap.
The Ethics or Sirius insert with a full containment sleeve is essentially a solid piece with zero gaps on the weakest area. So straight on impacts as well as side torque is now reduced further. I’m trying these and will report back. They’re less expensive than IW with added punch.
Blood, what adhesive did you use in the HIT and did you use any on the collar for the arrow pic you posted above?
I had never seen how the IW collars work. That is a definite improvement over the old aluminum shaft footers. Also....I could see how a person could get by with using hot melt on that system.
I think that is a massive improvement and the only thing that would keep me from that system is cost because the IW collars aren't cheap. Not a huge cost but an extra $70l dozen adds up.
Question....do you hot melt the collars too? If so, I'm assuming they are fairly tough and could be reused.
"Question....do you hot melt the collars too? If so, I'm assuming they are fairly tough and could be reused."
I don't but sometimes question that strategy.
I use the two part Easton epoxy for the HIT’s. I’m using both 25 Gr and 75 Gr IW stainless inserts. The two part is the strongest bond I’ve played with.
I’ve also used the IW collars with and without any adhesive. The only thing I’ve tried with the collars is the Bohning Hot Melt. I get it just hot enough to work with. I thought gluing the collars would help the bond, but I haven’t seen any difference with results on hard impacts. Perhaps if you used the 2 part epoxy on the collars, it would help.
One more thing, the HIT tool has a major flaw. It seats the HIT’s too deep. There is a gap between the top the HIT and where the threads of most field points and broadheads meet the ferrel. If you wrap some thread or tape around the top of the tool, you can seat the HIT shallower to get it closer or right up to your ferrel.
Or, you can screw your head right down tight to the HIT before inserting it. Then you glue the whole thing right into the shaft. It’s permanent….but it’s solid.
Are you saying it seats them so deep that you can't even get a BH started? I think seating them too shallow causes a bigger problem.
I don’t see how HIT inserts can be a weak link. I shot axis since they came out up until last year when I switched to Victory and still use the HIT. Never in all that time with all the arrows launched has there been any failure of that insert. Outserts bend, some easily. Not worth it. Plus, they just look bad.
"One more thing, the HIT tool has a major flaw. It seats the HIT’s too deep."
Not all point manufacturers have the same specs, so if you set the insert depth just right for one manufacturer's point it is possible it is too shallow for others. So not sure if that is a weakness so much as reflection of the reality component manufacturers face. There is nothing more annoying than having an insert which results in a gap between the back of the BH and the front of the insert or shaft, Been there, done that.
Bowfreak, it doesn’t seat them so deep that you can’t get a twist or two onto the threads. It just seats them deep enough that you can’t get most of the threads embedded into the insert. Try it out outside the shaft and place it next where the HIT tool would seat the insert and you’ll see that there’s a lot of the threads not going into the insert. I’ll keep messing around with some different things and hopefully find a happy medium. I do appreciate some of the opinions here.
Don’t use the tool. If you want the IW to fully thread install the insert on broadheads and then glue in. I use oil on the threads so epoxy won’t stick to head. If you want to try some Siris outserts with sleeves I’ll send you some. I couldn’t tune a head with them. There also the new design that Ethics makes.
I use the epoxy that comes with the HIT inserts for both the insert and the collar. If you're still breaking shafts with these set ups, you should spring for a target and quit using rocks.
There is nothing out there that you cannot destroy if you work at it hard enough.
I completely agree! Epoxy those collars. I haven’t had any fail on over 20 animals. I also don’t shoot concrete walls or rebar.
I've seen impact collars save dozens of arrows on heavy bone, tree, and rocky dirt impacts. I've shot several TAC events with groups of people where half outs and outserts were all bending but HITs with Impact Collars were still spinning true with similar hits (trees & gravel or rocky dirt). The image above of a damaged collar was likely an impact on steel since even the hardened steel field point tip was smashed flat. Your arrow probably won't survive a hard steel or granite boulder impact, but it should survive most hunting situations and a lot of missed target situations. HITs have the advantage of aligning your broadhead directly to the inside of your arrow and this is a huge benefit for accurate long range flight in my opinion. They can be a bit of a pain to install properly for some people. Check out the Iron Will Outfitters YouTube channel for recommended methods of Epoxy and Hot Melt installation. A properly installed HIT should take over 400 pounds to pull out.
Bill, what is your sense of how much strength do you give up by using hot melt versus epoxy?
Push out force for HITs with 24 hour 2-part epoxy was about 430 lbs for the shorter 25 grain and about 800 lbs for the longer 100 grain HIT. I tested seven different hot melts and many of them have very low pull out strength. We now sell the highest strength one from my testing. This had about 150-250 lbs push-out force if only bonding in the HIT. If you use hot melt to glue in the HIT and the field point or broadhead together, then the force was over 300 lbs. This is the way I would recommend doing it if you want to use hot melt. You can always remove them later with boiling water. I've used both methods a lot now through targets and lots of animals and both work great.
Bill, thanks a lot for your response. Very enlightening.
"If you use hot melt to glue in the HIT and the field point or broadhead together"
Are you saying to glue the broadhead into the insert threads or glue insert along with exposed portions of the ferrule into the shaft?
Also....will the lip of your collar aid in preventing shaft damage in the event that a heavy impact causes the the bond between the HIT and the shaft break? Do you have any specific data, similar to the push out force figures you provided for hot melt?
^^^ I'm looking for clarification on that also Bowfreak.
Bill, how is a push out force test conducted if you don't mind my asking? Did you mean pull out?
I wonder if there's a notable difference in gradually increasing the load (assuming that's the way the tests are conducted for a forced failure) with regard to shear stress-strain on the adhesive bond Vs. a "real world" shock/ impact load. Of course it would be slightly challenging to actually capture data from a flying arrow crashing into a hard substrate :^)
Adhesive choice certainly matters when it comes to this application, but if I'm reading correctly, real world results are showing a strong favor toward epoxy vs a more ductile bond via hot melt.
Back before the collars came out my only problem using melt on hard hits it would drive the HIT deeper in the shaft and split the arrow. I’ve never had that happen with epoxy on HITS and collars. I scuff the inside of collars and HITs and put in alcohol. Epoxy collar then screw broadheads in hits and epoxy. I put Goat Tuff oil on broadhead threads and shank so they will un screw.
If you screw your field point or broadhead into the HIT first then use hot melt you dont want to glue the threads. Just the insert and broadhead ferrule. Or, just the insert but some of the glue will spread onto the ferrule when it’s pushed in. I used epoxy once and will never do it again. I also don’t use the fer-l-tight or whatever it’s called. I use a low heat hot melt glue that is a little more soft and less brittle. Also, Aron Snyder has a pretty good video out about how he glues in his insert, broadhead, and collar combo if anyone still is confused on how to do it.
For me personally, I just don’t see a need to use any kind of collar. I’ve broken and bent aluminum, wood, and carbon arrows on many different areas of an arrow. Not just behind the insert or the front of the arrow. A collar would never have prevented those breaks or bends. I try to keep everything as simple and cost effective as possible.
SaddleReaper, to measure the push-out force, I cut a piece of the arrow shaft and hold it in a steel fixture and then push on the HIT insert with an Instron Machine to get a very accurate force x distance curve. The pull and push force should be the same, just easier to setup and fixture for a push force. I do a high speed impact test also since I agree it could act differently at high speed.
Bill V - Iron Will 's Link
"Are you saying to glue the broadhead into the insert threads or glue insert along with exposed portions of the ferrule into the shaft?"
I screw the insert to the point, apply Kimsha Quick-Stick Point Glue on the insert and the portion of the point that gets buried in the shaft, shove it all in and index how I want it. To remove, just dip the end in boiling water.
Here is a video showing the hot melt method. I'm doing it with the Snyder CORE system, but the process is the same for .204, Deep Six, and Snyder CORE systems using a HIT insert.
Another update. Here are the arrows with the accessories I built. After much research and testing, I went with Sirius Archery Apollo 5mm shafts, with their half jacket system. I really like the way the entire front of the Carbon is contained in either aluminum, stainless or a mix of either. And these arrows are built on a very strong base.
Total arrow weight is 555 Gr with a regular nock and 570 Gr with a lighted nock. I am at 282 FPS with a regular nock and 279 with a lighted. I think is have my happy place for both speed, penetration and strength.