Summit Treestands
FOC or Total Arrow Weight
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
Blood 03-Apr-22
midwest 03-Apr-22
HDE 03-Apr-22
Banjo 03-Apr-22
Matt 04-Apr-22
Bou'bound 04-Apr-22
DanaC 04-Apr-22
Blood 04-Apr-22
WV Mountaineer 04-Apr-22
Ollie 04-Apr-22
HDE 04-Apr-22
Ambush 04-Apr-22
Buglmin 04-Apr-22
12yards 04-Apr-22
Blood 04-Apr-22
Buck Watcher 04-Apr-22
HDE 04-Apr-22
ahunter76 04-Apr-22
Ziek 04-Apr-22
Ironbow 04-Apr-22
wyobullshooter 04-Apr-22
12yards 04-Apr-22
Blood 04-Apr-22
DanaC 04-Apr-22
Ziek 04-Apr-22
Kodiak 04-Apr-22
Matt 04-Apr-22
Banjo 04-Apr-22
ohiohunter 04-Apr-22
12yards 05-Apr-22
Beendare 05-Apr-22
ohiohunter 05-Apr-22
goyt 05-Apr-22
ohiohunter 05-Apr-22
ohiohunter 05-Apr-22
goyt 05-Apr-22
HDE 05-Apr-22
goyt 05-Apr-22
Tim257 05-Apr-22
ohiohunter 05-Apr-22
Ziek 05-Apr-22
Matt 05-Apr-22
Coondog 05-Apr-22
ohiohunter 05-Apr-22
Matt 05-Apr-22
ohiohunter 05-Apr-22
Matt 05-Apr-22
ohiohunter 05-Apr-22
Lee 06-Apr-22
Bowfreak 06-Apr-22
Matt 06-Apr-22
Matt 06-Apr-22
x-man 06-Apr-22
HDE 06-Apr-22
ohiohunter 06-Apr-22
Beendare 06-Apr-22
bluedog 06-Apr-22
Blood 06-Apr-22
ohiohunter 06-Apr-22
HDE 06-Apr-22
carcus 07-Apr-22
Blood 07-Apr-22
Matt 07-Apr-22
Ziek 07-Apr-22
goyt 07-Apr-22
Matt 07-Apr-22
HDE 07-Apr-22
Kodiak 07-Apr-22
ohiohunter 07-Apr-22
WV Mountaineer 07-Apr-22
Blood 11-May-22
Tim257 19-May-22
carcus 20-May-22
Beendare 20-May-22
Whatthefoc 20-May-22
Corax_latrans 21-May-22
Whatthefoc 22-May-22
Shawn 22-May-22
Empty Freezer 22-May-22
rattling_junkie 22-May-22
x-man 23-May-22
ohiohunter 23-May-22
Lee 23-May-22
WapitiBob 23-May-22
TREESTANDWOLF 23-May-22
TREESTANDWOLF 23-May-22
TREESTANDWOLF 23-May-22
TREESTANDWOLF 23-May-22
TREESTANDWOLF 23-May-22
WapitiBob 23-May-22
ohiohunter 23-May-22
WapitiBob 23-May-22
ohiohunter 24-May-22
Blood 24-May-22
carcus 24-May-22
ohiohunter 24-May-22
Beendare 24-May-22
TREESTANDWOLF 24-May-22
TREESTANDWOLF 24-May-22
TREESTANDWOLF 24-May-22
ohiohunter 24-May-22
x-man 24-May-22
ohiohunter 24-May-22
Bill in MI 24-May-22
GFL 25-May-22
Whatthefoc 25-May-22
Blood 29-May-22
From: Blood
03-Apr-22
What’s better and why:

I shoot a 523 Gr Easton Axis 300. 10.7 GPI. 25 Gr insert. 10 Gr impact collar. 125 Gr head. Nocturnal nock, wrap and three Q2iarchery fletches. 286 fps. They shoot pretty well.

I can build a stiffer 250 RIP TKO. 8.9 GPI. 75 Gr insert. All other components the same. 523 Gr total weight.

What is better or more effective, since one is light on FOC and the other is heavy on FOC…..Or does it matter since they’re the same weight flying at the same fps? Thanks all you physics gurus in advance.

From: midwest
03-Apr-22
I'd shoot which ever one groups better.

From: HDE
03-Apr-22
The second one if it flys well.

From: Banjo
03-Apr-22
I know since I’ve switched to more weight up front it seems my broadheads tune a lot easier.

From: Matt
04-Apr-22
The first because the shaft is likely more durable. Ashby says arrow integrity is #1 but in the internet age some guys try to split atoms and go with high FOC which is way down the list, That can result in a weaker shaft which can result in arrow failure.

From: Bou'bound
04-Apr-22
what does randy ulmer say

From: DanaC
04-Apr-22
What's the FOC (percentage) of the first arrow? And the second? As long as the first meets the 7-10% minimum recommended, it's fine. If the second flies better, great.

Does anyone think giving up accuracy for more FOC is a *good* idea?

From: Blood
04-Apr-22
I think I got a little over 10% when I did the measurements on the first one. I haven’t made the TKO arrow yet….so I don’t know what the FOC is…..but obviously it’s much more…..maybe “extreme FOC” as they say now.

Matt, the 250 is a stiffer arrow, what do you mean the Axis is more durable? Thanks!

04-Apr-22
If you load the front of that stiffer arrow up, you are indeed making the arrow weaker. That’s what he meant.

There is zero reason to excessively front load an arrow setup out of a modern compound bow. None.

From: Ollie
04-Apr-22
Both are important when it comes to penetration. IMO a heavy arrow with high FOC is the ultimate shaft for penetration. Try each setup and see which flies best.

From: HDE
04-Apr-22
The arrow does not become weaker. Weight upfront does not change the fiber structure of the arrow. What it does do is that it changes the axis of rotation (end over end) more forward which changes the dynamic spine that could result in too much "tail-whipping" if the draw weight it too high for the arrow setup. This will concentrate the compressive/tensile stress along the axis of the shaft to a shorter length magnifying them further back toward the fletching and the new axis of rotation.

From: Ambush
04-Apr-22
A stiffer shaft is better for penetration regardless of FOC. Shoot the stiffest shaft possible (within reason) that doesn't degrade accuracy.

From: Buglmin
04-Apr-22
Adding tip weight does weaken the spine of the arrow. Spend time bare shaft tuning instead of just putting components on that guys tell you to. Most guys on here will move the rest out of center shot to tune the bow, instead of taking the time to tune the arrow instead. If you want to see which flies better, spend time bare shaft tuning. You're gonna find you'll need more the another 50 grains tip weight to get the VAP 250 to tune.

From: 12yards
04-Apr-22
As long as the arrow is flying straight, I can't imagine there would be a perceptible difference in penetration.

From: Blood
04-Apr-22
Buglmin, I have a Hoyt Carbon Spyder Turbo at 73lbs, so I can yoke tune this bow pretty easily. I paper tune too, walk back tune, broad head tune, etc. I know to keep the rest centered and move all other variables respectively.

I guess what I was hoping to do, going down this rabbit hole, was see if anyone has experience moving to lighter, stiffer shaft, loading up the FOC and see a MEASURABLE difference shooting these two scenarios.

I can very accurately shoot the Axis out to 80-90 yards on the practice range. I have zero complaints……but what if the other arrow offers some advantages??

I wish TBM was still here :)

From: Buck Watcher
04-Apr-22
I would shoot the one made in the USA and never even consider the TKO. I shoot Axis 300 50gr insert.

From: HDE
04-Apr-22
No, the spine of the shaft is a set property reflective of the diameter, wall thickness, and content makeup whether it's aluminum or carbon fiber.

What varies is the dynamic spine dependent on all the input variables of the applied forces to the shaft.

From: ahunter76
04-Apr-22
I cut, add my insert, screw in my point & have no idea what my FOC is. I shoot Aluminum shafts for everything. A 2216 or 2219 hunting & 1716 or 1913 out door targets. No tuning problems, fly awesome & like bullets. I did Carbons 2 years & was "never" satisfied & yes, I do know how to tune..

From: Ziek
04-Apr-22
"...high FOC which is way down the list, That can result in a weaker shaft which can result in arrow failure."

How does that result in a weaker shaft? Higher FOC might require a stronger shaft.

What most fail to consider is that there are two dynamic spine components; one at launch and one at impact, that are opposite. The higher the FOC, the stiffer the dynamic spine at impact, resulting in less arrow flexion and more efficient transfer of energy through the arrow point. That results in better penetration. A higher FOC arrow properly spined for good arrow launch will necessarily require a stiffer/stronger/heavier shaft, a more stable arrow in flight, and better penetration at impact. What's not to like?

From: Ironbow
04-Apr-22
So how much penetration are you looking for? On whitetails or something bigger?

04-Apr-22
“I'd shoot which ever one groups better.”

“There is zero reason to excessively front load an arrow setup out of a modern compound bow. None.”

I couldn’t agree more with with both those observations. With your arrow weight and speed, there’s zero need to sweat the minutiae. Pick whichever tunes best out of your bow and go kill things.

From: 12yards
04-Apr-22
My current arrows weigh around 441 gr with an FOC around 14%.

From: Blood
04-Apr-22
I already pass thru on whitetails, no issues. I also hunt elk. I’ve passed thru on them with a lesser arrow. I just like the idea that I have confidence in penetration, arrow flight and efficiency. And now the gears are turning on this much higher FOC arrow. It’s a lighter, stiffer shaft with A lot up front. It will be interesting to see and play around with.

Ziek, that was the only thing I was thinking of, driving that new arrow thru my target. I’ll have to see if I can find one 250 RIP TKO and buy just one, set it up and figure it out.

From: DanaC
04-Apr-22
Question - do high-FOC arrows tune as easily?

From: Ziek
04-Apr-22
There is another consideration. Virtually every impact on an animal results in some deflection. If there is any crosswind the arrow is not aligned with its direction of travel. If the hit is not perfectly broadside, some blades engage first. Different blades may impact different types of tissue (ie rib on one blade, soft tissue between ribs on others. Use your imagination). Animal moving on impact. Again think about every and any scenario. ANY deflection at impact is made worse by less FOC. The more weight behind the point, and the greater that distance that weight is, the more force there is to continue that deflection. Vanes stop steering the arrow at impact. At that point the BH is steering based on how far out of alignment the shaft is, and it can be quite significant. FOC and type of BH can make a difference.

Is it THAT important? I guess that depends on each individual hit. But if there's no downside to improving your odds of turning a bad outcome into a good one, even a little, why wouldn't you?

From: Kodiak
04-Apr-22
Ziek that was a great post. Outstanding.

From: Matt
04-Apr-22
I can’t disagree with a thing that Ziek posted, but in why flip side I have a hard time thinking back to any of my ~100 bow kills where I think it could have made a difference.

If I had a 32” DL, I wouldn’t give FOC a second thought. That long a power strike can cure a lot of ills.

From: Banjo
04-Apr-22
Check out the Ranch Fairy on YouTube, he’s done lots of experiments with high foc and has some good video’s about it.

From: ohiohunter
04-Apr-22
With a compound the advantages aren’t nearly as noticeable and about impossible to quantify at typical hunting ranges (<30yds). Longer distances will better illustrate advantages, but obviously within the limitations of the archer. Bottom line, physics says the higher foc projectile will be more stable in flight… if you can prove it otherwise get the hell off Bowsite and go cure cancer.

From: 12yards
05-Apr-22
How would wind factor in? A higher FOC will be weighted more in front, so wouldn't the wind impact the lighter tail more than a more evenly weighted arrow? I don't think about wind much because I am a short range whitetail hunter, but just trying to wrap my head around it.

From: Beendare
05-Apr-22
Very high FOC is pushed by a small group of “ Look at me” internet influencers….where on the contrary its worth noting;

1) Easton recommends avg FOC (8-16%)

2) Every single experienced bowhunter I know places low to no priority on FOC.

3) every single pro in every single archery discipline shoots an avg FOC- not one single legit pro shoots uber FOC

Who are you going to believe? Grin

.

From: ohiohunter
05-Apr-22
The “heavier” tip, weight foc will maintain its path of trajectory. The more weight distributed to the front the less influential the rest of the projectile becomes. Higher foc will result in less deflection from its intended path.

From: goyt
05-Apr-22
12yards, Here are my thoughts on wind impact. The greater the FOC the more forward the center of gravity is and the more leverage the fletching has to steer the arrow over the broad head. Wind blowing on the side of the arrow may make that a bad thing because the higher surface area of the fletching would have a greater impact on the back of the arrow than on the front. However at the speed that arrows travel today the greater leverage that the drag from the fletching gets from the increases leverage trumps the impact of a side wind. If wind is a big concern a greater twist of angle to the fletching will provide added drag which really helps to straighten out the arrow in wind.

Also I think that wind drift is dependent on arrow profile area and speed and is pretty much independent of FOC.

05-Apr-22

Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
1.75 long 1/2” high fletch, proper spine for 250 grains up front and length of arrow. Draw weight. 26% FOC This is a 30” arrow
Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
1.75 long 1/2” high fletch, proper spine for 250 grains up front and length of arrow. Draw weight. 26% FOC This is a 30” arrow
Goyt, it’s actually the opposite. The more FOC the less fletching is needed. Excessive fletching is wasted energy.

The best analogy for FOC is how a passenger jet is designed versus a fighter jet

fighter jets need to maneuver and change direction quickly so the center of gravity is more in the middle to pivot on

passenger jets are built with a high FOC and can almost fly themselves and are harder to change course quickly

From: ohiohunter
05-Apr-22
All things equal, except weight distribution, the projectile with the most weight forward will be more resistant to deviation.

05-Apr-22
The jet analogy isn’t perfect by any means. And may not even be relevant :>))) Because a jet is propelled from the center and has to land on wheels so isn’t much like an arrow at all I guess.

From: ohiohunter
05-Apr-22
Who has played jarts? Make your own with arrows and tell us which weight distribution you prefer.

AS, I bet them arrows fly like a thing of beauty. I love the feeling of a nicely weighted arrow launched via stick n string.. the feed back and trajectory is just… aaaaah

05-Apr-22
Ohio, I have slo Mo video of the arrow flight. It recovers from the initial flex quicker and your right. It flys like a laser. And the penetration is impressive

From: goyt
05-Apr-22
Altitude Sickness, I think that we are saying the same thing. I certainly agree that the higher the FOC the easier it is for the fletching to control the arrow. My point was that with a larger FOC the wind has an increased advantage to push the fletching end of the arrow more than the front but that IMO the advantage gained by the drag on the fletching from a larger FOC is more significant so even in wind a higher FOC is better which is also consistent with your statement.

From: HDE
05-Apr-22
"Very high FOC is pushed by a small group of 'Look at me' internet influencers….where on the contrary its worth noting;"

Well, crap. I just found out that I'm not an experienced bowhunter. By the way, the influencers and experienced bowhunters that don't push the "look at me" on FOC push the "look at me" in the opposite direction. I wouldn't follow an experienced bowhunter or archer pro off a cliff either...

From: goyt
05-Apr-22
Sometimes we discuss what is necessary when asked what is better. I have some arrows that are not as good in theory and probably not in practice either that I use because they are still extremely effective, and I have them.

From: Tim257
05-Apr-22
Its no wonder that we cannot discuss emotional issues, when we cannot even agree if weaker arrows are more flexible or more likely to break.

If you add weight, then why would you not want it in the part that does the killing?

From: ohiohunter
05-Apr-22
FOC is an emotional topic.

Feelings bout to get hurt… I guarantee every Olympic archer, or their coach, makes sure they’re heavy up front.. calculated or not I bet it’s over 15%. More likely around 20%

From: Ziek
05-Apr-22
"...thinking back to any of my ~100 bow kills where I think it could have made a difference."

Matt, respectfully, those are irrelevant. It's the ones you hit and didn't recover you should be considering. Of course those are all conjecture. All you can say is 'maybe only if I did this in my seat-up'. Since it's usually impossible to really know what went wrong, I look to the physics to give me ANY possible advantage, no matter how small.

And to be clear, I don't use or promote ridiculously high FOC. The more the better, within reason. It's just too hard to assemble a balanced arrow for the higher speeds of compounds. I try for about 9 gr/# of draw weight for total arrow weight, and 15% or more FOC. And the lower the power of the bow, the more important it becomes. My wife's grains/# and FOC are a bit higher than mine. With other aspects of my choices, mostly BH, both my wife and I get excellent results.

From: Matt
05-Apr-22
"Matt, respectfully, those are irrelevant. It's the ones you hit and didn't recover you should be considering. Of course those are all conjecture. All you can say is 'maybe only if I did this in my seat-up'. Since it's usually impossible to really know what went wrong, I look to the physics to give me ANY possible advantage, no matter how small.":

Understood and I should have clarified, I don't have any of those I can think of. Every animal I have hit and lost has been either shot placement or scapula-related. Not one deflection or head scratcher that I can recall. Even the couple of "failures" I have experienced have been BH-related (folded ferrules) but thankfully resulted in recovered animals.

Tim257, right there with you, I said the above but know of a couple of instances where guys tried to get high FOC and keep the total arrow weight down and had shaft failures on impact (presumably due to side force cause by a deflection). One resulted in a really long afternoon but a successful hunt after a follow-up shot (antelope), but a couple resulted in lost animals (elk). Ashby has FOC quite a ways down the list compared to structural integrity (#1) for a reason.

From: Coondog
05-Apr-22
9 grains per pound of draw weight?! That would mean I would need a 720 grain arrow. C’mon now…

From: ohiohunter
05-Apr-22
Definitely need details regarding these shaft failures at impact. I think everyone could use this info.

From: Matt
05-Apr-22
One was a Carbontech Cheetah and I am not sure about the other 2.

From: ohiohunter
05-Apr-22
How did they fail? I can’t imagine a shaft failing under its own momentum.

From: Matt
05-Apr-22
Hit a bone at an angle and the shaft sheared behind the insert if memory serves. When you start pushing 7.0 gr/", my sense is that you lose a lot of margin for error.

From: ohiohunter
05-Apr-22
Anything can happen when you hit bone, I don’t care if you have foc, fda, cod, or fha. We all know hunting is like real estate.. location location location… in more ways than one.

From: Lee
06-Apr-22
Matt - noted your comment on losses related to scapula hits - to me that’s the reason to shoot a heavier setup with higher FOC. If I hit them in the ribs every time I wouldn’t even think about it as about anybodies setup will put the arrow in the dirt on the other side. I always plan for the worst. If I screw up the shot I want that arrow to not fail on the scapula.

Just my .02. Lee

From: Bowfreak
06-Apr-22
Just shoot a reasonable weight arrow and forget about it. In bowhunting there is only about 100 other things we should be worried about over FOC.

From: Matt
06-Apr-22
Lee, I believe that if my friend had the same arrow weight but a higher GPI, more durable shaft (and less FOC), he likely would not have broken the shaft on that hit. Would he have penetrated the scapula? Who knows. The point is that FOC in a vacuum can hurt more than help.

From: Matt
06-Apr-22

From: x-man
06-Apr-22
Getting into this conversation late... Didn't read all of the posts... Here's what science tells us for certain...

We already know that shot placement and a durable sharp head are crucial. After that, use enough weight to achieve good momentum for the game hunted. Tune your setup so the arrow travels without wobble & fishtailing. Now for the science part... it matters not where the weight is throughout the arrow as long as the aforementioned items are good. Picture in your mind an arrow falling straight down from above. That arrow will penetrate the same with 10% FOC as it will with 30% FOC. Honest...

From: HDE
06-Apr-22
^^^ A free falling object at terminal velocity relative to it's own mass is not the same dynamic as when additional force is applied for forward motion and impact of a projectile...

From: ohiohunter
06-Apr-22
You cannot replace a vector with a scalar.

From: Beendare
06-Apr-22
I’m not sure why this is such an emotional topic, but I stand by my comments.

A lawn dart comparison, really?

What the very high FOC folks forget is the law of Physics rule of equal and opposite reactions. An arrow is launched under extreme tension. The additional mass on the tip can be a benefit once in flight but its a big destabilizing force on the launch. Put a lawn dart….or one of the soda straws Ashby uses to trick his followers in a bow and see what happens.

I look at it like this; If Ashbys original criteria of 30% + FOC…(edited, 39% was a typo, Ashby original paper on FOC was a “Threshold of 30% plus) or even over 20%FOC was better, every single pro would be using it…and Easton would be all over it. Nope, not a one.

If you think it works for you, then great.

From: bluedog
06-Apr-22
Here's trivia.... granted not a broad head application...

Frank Pearson my occasional mentor was a champion back some time ago. (His wife Becky was also).They call it NFAA or something, not 3D. He got arrows by the case from Easton, a sponsor.

Anyway he'd just got back from South Africa where he won a 100 meter special contest. He was showing me the trophy. We were in his shop at his home in Vail, Arizona. I think Ulmer was there also.

Anyway (ramble, ramble)..I asked him what his FOC was on his arrows. He had never checked them, he just tuned for good flight.

We checked them out of curiosity and ....... they were a little less than 2.5%. Truth.

I think over the years my hunting arrows ran from 6.5% to 11% depending on my setup. 3D likely 4% to 6%

No point in post, just felt like rambling. ;)

From: Blood
06-Apr-22
Thanks for the responses. I think we’re all missing something in translation. I’m not taking the same arrow and adding more weight upfront……

I guess I was more interested to see if the two arrows would react the same……..since one is 300 spine and the the other is a 250 spine with 50 Gr more upfront…..effectively creating a similar effect…..but I was hoping a physics guy would chime in. :)

I’m seeing it as the arrows will react similarly. But the 250 might be more effective at lots of the stuff already mentioned. But I have to find a place I can buy one 250……and that’s more difficult than one can believe.

From: ohiohunter
06-Apr-22
You’re looking at it wrong. At this point you are only conversing with yourself as NO ONE, I’ll repeat slower.. NO ONE is advocating for extreme foc. So no need to attempt to derail the topic any further. The op asked a specific question, choice A or B, which is the better option? If anything you’re the emotional person in the room.

From: HDE
06-Apr-22
Beendare - you might want to go back and edit your most recent post...

Blood (OP) - "physics guys" have chimed in, take it for what it's worth.

From: carcus
07-Apr-22
Shoot a properly spined fmj and your good, you want foc add a 125gr bh, there u go

From: Blood
07-Apr-22
Thanks Carcus. But at 11.5 - 12 GPI on the FMJ’s you’ll need ALOT more than adding a 125 Gr broadhead to give you heavier FOC on those. Great arrows however.

From: Matt
07-Apr-22
FMJ's and chasing FOC are mutually exclusive.

From: Ziek
07-Apr-22
"FMJ's and chasing FOC are mutually exclusive."

Really?

I shoot FMJ 300, 28 1/4" with 14.9 % FOC without even trying very hard. 150 gr. BH + 16 gr. outsert.

My wife shoots FMJ 500, 25 1/4" with 16.8 % FOC with 125 gr. BH + 20 gr. outsert.

125 gr. up front is really pretty light if you're shooting over 60#.

From: goyt
07-Apr-22
I shoot FMJ 400 with either 150 gr or 175 gr. head and I have a great FOC and a strong arrow.

From: Matt
07-Apr-22
"125 gr. up front is really pretty light if you're shooting over 60#."

Based on sales across the industry, 125 gr. is on the heavy side regardless of draw weight. Looking at Lancaster Archery as one example, they list 63 125 gr. BH's, 61 100's, and only 12 150's. Volumes by SKU would only further demonstrate that.

Shooting a 150 gr, head essentially means you are trying hard just be virtue of deviation from the mean/mode in terms of head weight.

From: HDE
07-Apr-22
^^^ customer preference due to marketing is irrelevant with flight dynamics. Doesn't mean a thing...

From: Kodiak
07-Apr-22
"Shooting a 150 gr, head essentially means you are trying hard just be virtue of deviation from the mean/mode in terms of head weight."

Maybe some people just like a little more steel in their broadheads. Not a bad strategy.

From: ohiohunter
07-Apr-22
Lancaster Sales?? blahahahaha… I think Biden could conjure up a better argument about cockroaches and his blond leg hair.

07-Apr-22
Tuned is tuned. Center shot and the race of the arrow to stabilize in relation to where weight is applied, is a mute point if the arrow is tuned. Regardless of foc.

I like a heavier broadhead for the extra steel in it. I don’t think it does anything for penetration out of a modern compound. Because of my reasoning in my first paragraph.

However, I do believe it helps penetration with finger shot trad bows. Because fingers do funky things versus a release on a compound. But, in my opinion, there is a point that shows no benefit to extra upfront weight.

One of the better traditional bow shooters ever born is Rick Barbee. He’s tinkered with this stuff long before Ashby put out his “report”. He’s got a long draw and shoots 65-70 pound trad bows even at close to 70 or more years old. His findings were in contradiction to Ashby’s extreme foc.

Rick claims anything over 18-19% is no benefit for penetration. Or accuracy. I see no reason to doubt him. Especially after watching him shoot out candles at 60 yards in the dark. Or, tennis balls at 90 yards during daylight practice. Since most sponsored bow shooters I know in the compound world are looking for the 13-14% foc, I’m guessing there’s merit to the idea that it has its place for both. I just don’t think it’s a huge issue in the realm of modern compounds.

Am I right? I do not know. But, after shooting quite a bit of stuff with both trad bows and compounds, it’d take a lot to convince me I’m not. Or, I’d have to want to research it more then watching this paint dry. That’s about how important I think it is for a modern compound setup.

Just sayin’.

From: Blood
11-May-22
Ok. Here’s an update. I was able to find the RIP TKO 250’s and had to buy a dozen shafts. Just made up 6 arrows like I described. Nock tuned them and fletched them. They are almost 17% FOC. They all come in at 526Gr. and are all 286-287 FPS. I’ll shoot them for the next week and compare them. Right now, I’m liking the way they came out and paper tuned very nicely. We’ll see….

From: Tim257
19-May-22
As a fan of the Ranch Fairy and someone seriously considering the 775gr shartac broadheads… I think 98% of the deal is putting the arrow where it matters.

That being said; if you are not actually recording your own data, then you are a fool if you are not paying attention to Ashby’s actual data.

From: carcus
20-May-22
A 775 gr arrow is great as long as its travelling 270-285 fps

From: Beendare
20-May-22
A 775g BH?

The ridiculousness of that recommendation should be obvious to all of us.

Let’s just hope that you don’t have a splintered carbon shaft run through the back of your hand with that set up.

From: Whatthefoc
20-May-22

Whatthefoc's embedded Photo
Bare shafts about to become bear shafts
Whatthefoc's embedded Photo
Bare shafts about to become bear shafts
I love the posts that start with ‘the science is clear’ - why does that trigger me? :)

Since unbalanced forces on a projectile will cause it to rotate about its centre of gravity, the position of that centre of gravity is important. Increased FOC moves the cog forward causing two effects - both of which are positive on arrow flight. Consider the forces at the fletch and the broadhead during flight. Increasing the distance between the fletch and the cog creates a longer lever arm for the ‘good’ torque. At the same time the lever arm between cog and the broadhead is decreased, lessening the effect of the ‘bad’ torque due to forces applied to the blades.

I believe that moving the cog forward (aka foc) creates a more stable projectile. However, as with most things, pursuing the extreme will reveal real world drawbacks. If you are chasing higher FOC by using a light shaft that is not able to handle the launch or the landing, that makes no sense.

I have added about 100 grains to my ‘22 hunting arrows for a total of 550g. Most of the added weight is up front, but I had to beef up the shaft as well, for adequate spine. Completely unscientific findings here, but I believe that ease of tuning and forgiveness with a bh is better now than before. Admittedly, there are lots of variables in this equation - an obvious one is the fact that I’ve given up some speed, which would also deliver benefits in bh forgiveness (at the expense of trajectory).

21-May-22
“Now for the science part... it matters not where the weight is throughout the arrow as long as the aforementioned items are good. Picture in your mind an arrow falling straight down from above. That arrow will penetrate the same with 10% FOC as it will with 30% FOC. Honest...“

Well….

You are overlooking something.

The whole reason we tune our set ups is because arrows flex upon release when the string starts pushing and the nock starts moving…. before the head does. But arrows also flex upon impact, when the head slows/stops moving before the nock end does.

When you hit something soft like flesh or maybe a rib, that amount of flex on impact remains pretty trivial, because the arrow doesn’t slow down that much on a rib. At least not with a conventional BH. A big mechanical that’s confronting two or three or four ribs…. There’s a reason that there is usually a KE minimum recommendation with those, right?

So I’m pretty sure that most people assume that flex upon impact doesn’t really matter. A lot of people probably don’t even entertain the possibility that it happens at all.

But if you do the math… Let’s say an arrow flexes to a deflection of X at launch, during which the acceleration goes from 0 to max on a power stroke of 21”. If you hit something hard and get 7” of penetration, the arrow is stopping in 1/3 the distance, so the point is applying roughly 3 times the force that the nock did. If you take out FOC and lever arm considerations, I’m going to guess that the deflection would then be 3X.

In reality it would be nowhere near that clean, of course, because of velocity lost to drag through the air and friction applied to the shaft in the target medium, but I think the basic premise is sound.

When you load up an arrow with high FOC, you need to go with a stiffer shaft, because force applied at the nock end has a longer lever to use to flex the shaft to the necessary degree. High FOC arrows also tend to be made from lighter shaft materials (because for a given total arrow mass, there is no alternative).

Anyway… I have this crackpot theory that when an arrow flexes upon impact, the nock end will travel off of the axis of flight and basically begins to overtake the point by passing on the outside, creating a lateral force. And it’s really not so far-fetched, because many years ago I saw a video where someone was trying to prove how tough their broadheads were, so they shot them into beef bones and filmed the impacts at a very high number of frames per second. And what you could see very clearly in the video was that upon impact, the point would stop moving, and the nock end would wrap/bend all the way around until it snapped the arrow. So clearly a very large amount of force was redirected from the task of penetrating straight on through the target and ended up being used to do nothing more than destroy the arrow. I don’t think that’s a good thing in a hunting arrow.

And the lighter and stiffer the shaft material, the less potential there is for that to happen, because less nock-end mass will be displaced from the line of travel, and there will be a stiffer shaft in place to control its movement. If you could come up with an infinitely light, infinitely stiff shaft (and somehow get it to tune), it wouldn’t happen, but it does.

Then the other thing is… As someone mentioned up above, that longer lever acts as a force multiplier for the fletching that you have on there, which helps to straighten up your arrow quickly and keep the nock end perfectly aligned behind the point throughout flight and on impact, thereby lessening the potential for that lateral force to develop in the first place.

Because if you think about dropping a 2 x 4 from some considerable height onto a cement floor, if it lands plumb, it’s going to bounce pretty high. Maybe more than once. But if it were to strike at say 3° or 5° (or more) off of vertical, it would slap the floor a lot quicker and a lot harder. You don’t want that on a deer.

So I suppose I’m rambling a bit here, but you get the idea. There are a lot of reasons related to the physics of an impact which support the idea that a high FOC arrow should penetrate better than an old-fashioned arrow.

How much difference those things make when nothing very solid is hit probably approaches zero, but if you hit (for example) a shoulder blade… With a big mechanical…

That’s why deploy-on-impact mechanicals don’t make any sense to me. Too much leverage to send the tail of the arrow off line.

From: Whatthefoc
22-May-22
Yes! It’s not as simple as F=ma …

If Biden ever creates a Ministry of Penetration, my vote is for Corax.

From: Shawn
22-May-22
First off if the bow is a modern compound and is tuned to perfection I don't believe high FOC makes much of a difference. If you shoot a moderately heavy arrow say 450 grains and up from a 50 to 70 pound comound you will be fine on most NA game. I also know for a fact that if you shoot a tradtional bow even tunes to perfection a high FOC definitely can make a diffference for a few reason, one is paradox and another is speed. When going under say 185 fps a high FOC arrow goes through less flex when it encounters an animal. All that said I like a higher FOC out of all my bows, whether recurve or compound. Lastly the "Fairy" has done the biggest disservice to the young archery community that anyone has in a long time. I am in no way saying he is wrong but to lead everyone to believe his way is the right way is insane. Guys were killing tons of animals long before any of this FOC garbage came along!! Shawn

22-May-22
The Ranch Fairy, Elk Shape, Iron Will and MFJJ just to name a few have given us all alot of information that we have a choice to use or not. None of these guys are making me increase my FOC but it has helped on my arrow settup. Just sayin, feed me more and i will sort the bullshit on my own. my .02

22-May-22
I agree Shawn.

From: x-man
23-May-22
People passing off their opinions as facts.

Edit: oops this was meant for the pet peeve thread.

From: ohiohunter
23-May-22
I see you suffer from an interpersonal conflict.

From: Lee
23-May-22
One thing I find funny is when we talk 3D and the “pros” not shooting a high FOC - these guys aren’t trying to kill anything but a score! Put it where it counts and it doesn’t matter! Hell a field point will kill a deer in the right spot! Prepare for the worst (scapula hit) and you won’t be disappointed…. I’ve shot a lot of critters over the years and I can promise you a heavier arrow out penetrates a 3d setup on bone. Shooting a target and shooting an animal aren’t even close to the same thing. Nor is winning field tournaments.

Lee

From: WapitiBob
23-May-22
Actually they’re real close to the same thing and I’ve shot enough Elk and won enough field tournaments to see it.

23-May-22
Joel Maxfield did a excellent series on all the subjects above.

It was on Facebook last late summer or so.

I tried finding the link but with no luck.

His testing was extensive and proving through all sorts of media and arrows weights.

I’ll keep looking because it’s that good.

23-May-22

TREESTANDWOLF's Link
Here is one.

23-May-22

TREESTANDWOLF's Link
And the second

23-May-22

TREESTANDWOLF's Link
Thea best one.

Joel did a great job here.

I’m not sure if he posted this info other than on Facebook.

23-May-22

TREESTANDWOLF's embedded Photo
TREESTANDWOLF's embedded Photo
Of course the heavier arrow gets ugly down range.

Personally, I like my 525 grain arrow out to 25-30 yards, but that’s it.

From: WapitiBob
23-May-22
I shoot 420gr with 140 total up front and have never shot an arrow over 265 fps in my life. Don't care what it looks like thru paper; I want it to group and the pointy end to hit first. Bull Elk die just fine with that setup, fixed and mechanical. Get a decent weight arrow and a decent broadhead and you'll be fine. Spend your time shooting so you can hit what your aiming at instead of high foc mental gymnastics.

Some of you may recall the "have you ever recovered an Elk shot in the scapula" thread from a few years back. I don't recall FOC meaning much, if anything.

From: ohiohunter
23-May-22
Easy there Treestand… I posted that and miz gg had a chit fit.

There’s a big difference between being FOC conscious and an FOC extremist. Shooting 125gr bh isn’t the norm anymore, hell some bh aren’t even offered in 125. So Bob (I assume) shooting 125 + 15 insert= 140gr you just did an FOC cartwheel, congrats. You could’ve easily made up the weight with an extra inch or 2 of shaft, long wrap, bigger vanes, or even an fmj with an 85gr tip… but instead you put it up front, hmmm. Of course this is speculation bc you did not divulge any detail. Nonetheless.

So for the millionth time for the teenage foc anti-physics rebels, no one is advocating for extreme foc and if someone what’s to experiment why crucify them? Heaven forbid if someone wants to tinker with THEIR rig and discuss it here.

From: WapitiBob
23-May-22
my arrow is 14% foc

From: ohiohunter
24-May-22
Considering a lot of guys just twist a 100grainer onto a 11gpi arrow or an fmj and are 5-8%. Nothing wrong with it, but I’d say most would agree there are more optimal configurations.

I used to slap an 85gr thunderhead on my 2413, but I wasn’t doing myself any favors when trying to win $$$ on the 150yd (or further??) elk closest to the middle jackpot. We used to aim off the tree line.

From: Blood
24-May-22
You guys keep up the good points….. ;)

With a little extra tuning and tweaking with my bow……

Here’s what I saw between the two arrows. Both fly great in calm conditions. The RIP TKO with higher FOC was more accurate in windy conditions and if I had a poor release……especially this! These were shot out to 100 yards. With a “perfect” release, the higher FOC also hit more accurately at long range…..I would surmise that the arrow is able to stay on course easier with more weight up front……given the factors.

Interestingly, I was able to use the same sight tape. Initially it appeared I’d need a different one (I assumed more drop out at longer distance since the point might “pull” the tip down), but after some adjusting for paper tune, I was able to use the same tape.

I feel more confident in the higher FOC, FPS and weight of this arrow set up. And if it drives straighter through the air….and animal….I think this works better.

From: carcus
24-May-22
"First off if the bow is a modern compound and is tuned to perfection I don't believe high FOC makes much of a difference. If you shoot a moderately heavy arrow say 450 grains and up from a 50 to 70 pound comound you will be fine on most NA game. I also know for a fact that if you shoot a tradtional bow even tunes to perfection a high FOC definitely can make a diffference for a few reason, one is paradox and another is speed. When going under say 185 fps a high FOC arrow goes through less flex when it encounters an animal. All that said I like a higher FOC out of all my bows, whether recurve or compound. Lastly the "Fairy" has done the biggest disservice to the young archery community that anyone has in a long time. I am in no way saying he is wrong but to lead everyone to believe his way is the right way is insane. Guys were killing tons of animals long before any of this FOC garbage came along!! Shawn"

Well said Shawn, only time I increase my FOC if I get a deal on 125gr broadheads!

From: ohiohunter
24-May-22
Blood, nice to see your due diligence paying off. You’re experiencing exactly what some these guys said you wouldnt. Perhaps they will redefine gravity in another thread, these brainiacs I tell you hwhat.

Ever since man was launching sticks in the air foc has been here. Certainly not new by any stretch of your imagination.

With attitudes above its amazing we shoot compounds and these over built factory arrows, who needs proper spined arrows anyway!!.. then choose among 100’s of different bh’s… pffftttt people been killing plenty animals before this stuff came along.

From: Beendare
24-May-22
There has never been a controlled scientific study to show massive FOC - in the 30% range- is better for penetration.

Yes there are guys that CLAIM this….but then do not provide a controlled study to prove it. Its their OBSERVATIONS that they want you to believe.

Last time I checked Archery and bowhunting is a game of accuracy. Following along with all of the most accurate archers in the world makes good sense. So when every experienced bowhunter I know including a couple shop owners…. And every single pro in every Archery discipline Scoffs at EFOC….that should tell you something. Grin

I will go with the experts before I go with a guy that uses rubber bands to prove his ‘theories’ or some guy sprinkling fairy dust on his arrows.

.

24-May-22

TREESTANDWOLF's Link
Thea best one.

Joel did a great job here.

I’m not sure if he posted this info other than on Facebook.

24-May-22

TREESTANDWOLF's Link
And the second

24-May-22

TREESTANDWOLF's Link
Here is one.

From: ohiohunter
24-May-22
Bender…. Who is advocating EFOC??? please list their screen names bc I can’t find them.

From: x-man
24-May-22
A few years ago there were dozens promoting EFOC. It was a major topic here before the pandemic hit...

Mostly those posters are either gone or changed their screen names due to embarrassment. I'm apparently not the only one to get sucked back into that old debate now every time the term FOC comes up.

Truth be told, one has to either be really dumb when buying components or, really have to try hard to make an arrow with less than 10% or more than 20% FOC.

I wouldn't personally consider anything inside those parameters as high or low, just "normal". Which is why I for one automatically think "extreme" when I see the words high or low used.

From: ohiohunter
24-May-22
With wraps and mostly 100gr bh available I think more often than not people are single digit foc. Rough estimate puts an fmj 340 with 100gr front and 5gr wrap at about 7%. Same setup with axis 400 is about 9.5%. I feel like I have to go out of my way to buy 125’s. I should probably shoot a heavier insert and 100gr but tit for tat. I just try to position myself for convenience should I get in a pinch. Iron will collars aren’t exactly on the Wallace world shelf.

From: Bill in MI
24-May-22
Ahhhh, the off season. I recall these days vividly. ;^)

From: GFL
25-May-22
For guys having a hard time finding RIP TKOs I highly recommend looking at the Sirius Apollo shafts. I’m impressed with them so far. There direct to consumer and have great service.

From: Whatthefoc
25-May-22
Make that a mixed review on Sirius. I’ll give them an A for service, but a B- for quality.

From: Blood
29-May-22
Ok. So another interesting update…. The RIP TKO’s are less durable than the Axis. I was at TAC in VT and spoke to the Victory rep there. He explained that the Victory arrows are a true All carbon weave. And the axis arrows have a fiberglass core with carbon wrapped around it.

While shooting the RIP TKO’s I hit some rebar in some targets there and the arrows completely snapped off at the insert. I’ve done this before with the Axis arrows and they don’t snap into pieces….they splinter…..therefore still having the ability to drive the arrow and broadhead into your target.

Still more testing to do….but I’m leaning to go back to the Axis for pure hunting scenario-real life scenarios.

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