Bear defense gun revisited
Bears
After reading this article I thought I’d revisit this topic. Not surprising results at all but good reading.
I'm more worried about moose in my area than the black bears. And I'd take spray over a gun if given only 1 option. Even for grizzly. Doesnt hurt to carry both though. Spray is 10oz that could save your life
Not sure why anyone would carry a light weight 44 Mag with a 2.5” barrel, much less think it would perform well in a speed and accuracy test.
If you truly had time to squeeze off 5 shots on a charging bear, the 10 mm is the obvious choice. If the bear was on you, and you had one shot to kill or be killed, I’d take the 44 mag every time.
There’s not one caliber that is best suited for all possible scenarios, IMO.
Matt
GG, as little as I know about bears, I cut my shooting teeth on handguns. I have to agree that I can see no need for a snubbie in anything larger than a .38 Special. I think a guy would have to practice A LOT to not anticipate the recoil and especially the muzzle blast from a snubbie in .44 or larger. Of course, there’s that school of thought that says “ in the heat of the moment” you wouldn’t think about such things, but my school says that if you want to be fast and accurate “in the heat of the moment” then you had better spend lots of moments practicing with said gun and the load that you’re gonna use.
GG you do bring up a good point but I’m not sure a 44 mag to the head would have any different results then a 10mm hard cast to the head.
“ Not sure why anyone would carry a light weight 44 Mag with a 2.5” barrel”
Because he’s 40 pounds overweight and a full-size is “too heavy”….
I don’t know much about big handguns, but I know enough to take a hard pass on a .44 Mag snubbie! A .44 Spcl, maybe.
“ but I’m not sure a 44 mag to the head would have any different results then a 10mm hard cast to the head.”
Who carries a .44 OR a 10 “in case” they hit the bear in the head?
;)
I wouldn’t call the gun they ran a snub nose .44 mag. It has a 4.25” barrel. No one is gonna argue about the stopping power of a .44 mag being superior. This test highlights the fact that there’s a lot more that goes into choosing a gun for defensive purposes than stopping power. For me, a Glock 20 with a RDS and a light are a better choice for a multitude of reasons.
OK, so having read the article…
Gee, that’s SHOCKING. It’s easier to shoot a gun that’s set up to work than one that has been set up to fail.
Who knew?
Nothing new.
A couple buddies have that SW scanadium frame 329PD loaded with 305g hardcast. Yeah its snappy but accurate with a little bit of practice.
A 10mm with hard cast ammo has more than enough penetration to put a bullet all the way through a big bears skull…and its easier to shoot accurately- a win win.
A short 12 gauge with heavy slugs is really the way to go. I shot handguns a lot for a lot of years. The issue is most folks don't practice with one enough to be proficient. The recoil on a short .44 mag with heavy handloads is more than most folks realize. I do believe a reliable 10 mm would allow more shots on target if one practices enough as to control muzzle jump. Shawn
What a skewed article, take a base 329 which is arguably the worst .44 mag that exists to shoot quickly, compare it so some tricked out 10mm pistols, and then act surprised at the predictable results.
The shotgun would be best but isn't practical most of the time. S&W .500. You're not shooting if it's not really close. May be like trying to hit a butterfly as fast as they are. Practice is all you can do.
Don’t forget drawing on a charging bear or most likely one already on top of you by the time you draw would be a good chance of having to shoot one handed making the 44 magnum or larger a whole nother beast.
Gator, I have to admit I didn’t read the article before commenting. Yeah, a 4” barrel is not a snubbie in my book, but between the two guns mentioned I would probably still choose the G20. The reason for that would be that a Glock fits me and I fit a Glock. I love revolvers too, but I don’t shoot them as well as I shoot semis, at least not shooting fast. I’ll never believe that a 10mm will stack up against a .44 mag on an energy basis, but a couple of slow hits will beat a fast miss any day of the week.
“ A 10mm with hard cast ammo has more than enough penetration to put a bullet all the way through a big bears skull…”
So does a .38 Spcl.
Point is…. what happens When (not If) you miss the brain case?
No doubt you’ll always be better off with any hit than a miss with a Tyrannosaur, but let’s go waaaaaay out on a limb here and we suppose that you miss a moving, 6” bullseye with your first (extremely rushed) shot at 20 yards? Just imagine it. Purely for the sake of argument, because while I’m certain that nobody has EVER missed a target that size and at that range with a handgun, but just imagine that somehow in the heat of the moment…. People win the lottery every day, so hey, IT COULD HAPPEN!
And not for nothin’, but…..
These guys averaged 1.3 misses out of 5 with that .44…
I wonder what percentage of those misses were at the two longest targets? I’m kinda gonna guess that their first shot was on the money, second probably missed, and then misses were fewest at close quarters.
So if the bear’s closing rate is independent of your rate of fire, that second shot is NOT going to be at the same distance with the big revolver, now, is it?
It’s going to be closer, where most shooters will be more accurate.
And is rate of fire a big advantage? Because I don’t know, but I don’t imagine it would take a pissed-off griz any 3.5 seconds to cover 20 yards.
Seems to me that you might get two rounds off with the 44 and perhaps three with the 10.
What IF the 10 jams?! Too big of concern for me personally. To each his own. I have several semi's and every single one of them has jammed on me at some point or another. For me that has to be something to consider.
I have been involved in weapons all of my life,,, from the military 69 to 72 to LEO from 75 to 2007 (retired). I am not expert but was full time on police tng ranges for 10 years of my career, before the academys, As far as mal functions ( only civilians refer to them as jams),,,,,,, Difference in the real world they do ocurr, other difference is training, and the ability to clear, malfunctions,,,, its called TRAINING,,,,,,,,,,,,
The 10 mm is a formidable round, and in my humble opinion is an outstanding round.
I have never faced a bear, I have faced humans,,,,, I think the Bear is the biggest threat anyone could consider.... Humans will hesitate, believe me from NVA to the Middle East, a human at times, will hesitate, a BEAR, will never hesitate,,,,,
I have been in gun fights, take the biggest weapon you can handle, have trained with, and have confidence in,,,,,, In a no BS moment, you only have a breath
I guess I'm just a civilian and it's just a jam to me. To think anyone on earth is trained enough to clear a jam and get another round off on a charging pissed off griz would be insane. I'd rather face every gangster in Chicago one after another than one pissed off griz.
Pop R, I agree, but why would the weapon jam? Why would you have a stove pipe, why would you have a malfunction, that takes a 2 step clearance,,,, I agree with a BEAR, you will have no time, but WHY would the malfunction occur......
If your not confident in your semi auto carry a revolver... Again I have never faced a bear..... By the time you need a hand gun, I would imagine its pucker time, and you have one last chance,,,
I believe that a charging bear, is your worst nightmare....... I went to SA to hunt plains game,,,, In my camp, a guy wounded a Buff, and the PH, finished it off at close range,,, that night at the camp fire, there was no talk, they were all involved in their own thoughts, and what could have happened,,,,,, Later on a few days later I got the story,,,,,, Things happen,,,,, Got alot of balls to hunt Buff,,,,, Got a lot of balls to hunt any dangerous game,,,,, When things get close, its another dimension....
I have alot of respect for the big game guides, on big bears,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A 12 ga. W/slugs is the ony viable choice in a bear attack!
Groundhunter I'm going to assume John Browning & every gunsmith since him has had that same question in their mind. They just do. Whether it be bad ammo, a piece of sand or stick or whatever. It just happens. You'd know way more than I how often.
I’ve always wondered about that… I was under the impression that any back-pressure on the slide would take a semi out of battery… Sure would suck to have a bear right on top of you and you can’t get the damn gun to go off for love nor money.
I’d swap a busted wrist for a severe mauling ANY day….
There is a guy on another forum I frequent whose livelihood is to test firearms/scopes/ammo for the government and he pointed out a 9mm will outpenetrate a 10mm in gel.
Once owned a 357 snubbie Colt. 'Joyless to shoot' is an understatement. Was happy to sell it at a modest loss.
Had a 44 mag Dan Wesson, with full power loads and a 4" full lug barrel it was bearly manageable. Scandium frame 44? No thanks. S&W probably gets rich off these things but you'd best have magnum hands.
Magnum is an understatement. Recoil is very moderate as well. Corax it'll go off once for sure but after that it's just an odds game.
Most of you's probably seen this list if not here it is :https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz7QcYybrQd Every encounter different this caliber list is not Bible , just every couple years I read it . I thank the Lord never had a bear "charge " . 10MM Glock with high cap IMO for back up probably the best on paper insurance , as long as you don't get a jam I guess . Might not be the best choise but when I stickbow in grizz / brown bear etc territory I currently carry : S&W mdl 69 44 mag 2.75 " barrel (5 shot ) with DiamondDLeather chest rigg . Extra rounds on me , not that I believe in an encounter I would be able to re load espiecially a wheel gun . I own various other 44 mag's / 45 ACP's / and two 10MM 's but they are 1911 style low cap pistols . I never even bought a can of premium bear spray . Probably should and keep buying them "fresh " and not tote older stock spray sitting around for near two years and up . Find I can shoot the mdl 69 very well and it's light . Good thread btw on the age old revolver / pistol / bear spray debate .
re Link's link - Barrel Length 14.375"
Is that legal for civilians? I thought legal shotguns were minimum 18" barrel, 26" OAL, or did that change? (Or is it state by state?)
I won’t add to the actual bear defence part as it’s pretty speculative and situational in my opinion. But I did own and shoot a S&W 329 with a 4” barrel. One of the few guns I bought factory loads for, which I shot HSM Bear loads, a stout hard cast load. Yes it recoiled but honestly, only enough to put a big ol smile on my face. Sure I’m not going to pound out 100/200 rounds in a range session, but practicing dumping the cylinder a few times on a Saturday was no issue, and target shooting it really was no problem at all. As expected, great accuracy was difficult with the recoil, so a guy did have to pay attention. I really enjoyed that gun
Gel would be a waste of everything involved. I know the .500 is going to extremely outperform everything handgun wise. It shoots TWICE the bullet as a 44 mag the same velocity if not faster. For what most people that have actually shot both believe to be about a 15% increase in recoil.
Dana watch the first minute of this video. In a nut shell it’s because it’s manufactured this way and not modified and overall length is over 26” at like 26.3”. I don’t own one but if ever I hunt in big bear country I will.
OK.Makes sense. But I think I'd prefer this one ;-)
I have carried and hunted with a .45 Long Colt. It's loaded hot so similar to 454 Casull level. It has a lot of recoil but manageable and not really a factor when hunting. In big bear country, a 44 mag with factory loads is at the light end of what I would choose as a last ditch option.
Not diminishing the 10mm in an auto. It's certainly a better platform for multiple hits quicker. Seems like most incidences are decided in the first couple rounds.
I don't like the odds of stopping an angry Griz charging at close range with any handgun but for me, a big revolver round gets the nod. I Hope I never have to find out.
On a couple hunts I carried a 21" barreled shotgun slung on my back. Really not that bad if you don't need a big pack and didn't impede drawing and shooting. Also took a pile of ducks with it on Kodiak.
In a panic situation nearly everyone would be farther ahead with the gun being automatic than the shooter. How many times have you read a story about "... the gun jammed!!!" at a critical moment. Well, the gun didn't "jam" the shooter jammed it. Short stroking in a panic situation is pretty common, which usually means only one shot gets to or near the target.
In the brown bear thread, I posted about the guy that hunted problem brownies in close and often sudden encounters. He used a Remington auto loader in 308. Fastest back on target and no human "malfunctions". In a defensive encounter, you first want to stop the charge, then kill it, so your ammo should shed it's energy fairly quickly rather than passing through. In one test from Alaska, the 30-06 was preferable to a magnum in the same caliber. Bullet selection is another issue.
Basically, a tool that is "auto" when your brain is not.
I’m not going to question Pop-r’s numbers comparing to .500 to the .44… Until you get to the recoil part.
Are you comparing a ported barrel to one that’s not? Or does the .500 just weigh that much more? Because somewhere it seems like they’d have to have violated the No Free Lunch law of Physics…. Which nobody has ever gotten away with.
Ever.
FWIW… The .500 is so damn potent on paper that I’m not sure I would care to shoot a RIFLE in that chambering. And now I’m recalling seeing videos of people accidentally double-tapping those beasts when they ripped out of the shooter’s hands during recoil - during which they evidently released the trigger - and in their panic to reestablish a grip they end up squeezing the trigger a second time so fast that you can hardly tell it was two shots. At least that’s the best explanation I can come up with….
Which would be fine if the second round went toward the target…. And provided that you would actually shoot and carry the .500….
Anyway…. Seems to me that it has way more to do with the shooter and the pistol than the round. So if you want to settle the debate, you have buy the .44 that you’d honestly be willing to carry afield AND shoot regularly…. and stack that up against the 10 of your choice… and shoot them both. A Lot. Then you won’t have The Answer, but you will have Your Answer.
And (just a guess)… If you don’t shoot enough to KNOW which one you’re better off with….. you should probably go with the pepper spray.
Corax,,,, that is a good post and very true,,,,,, You will perform, as you train.......either way, a bear charge, has to be a scary thing......
One more thought...... If I was going to be in dangerous bear area, or on a hunt, I would go to Montana, and take that course, that is offered , by the ex Navy Seal, and an instructor, that survived a full bear attack...... Bet those guys have an opinion. Read about the training, but can not remember the name of the course......
Surviving the Griz...... TACTICMT........ Just looked it up,,,,, train to use gun and spray at the same time,,,,,, Looks like a good course
Yes corax it's ported. It's on the new X frame but it only weighs an ounce or two more than my buddy's 44.
Pepper spray should be trained with as well. I had a buddy who had never used it fail to get it working when a sow black bear was posing a threat. Turned out she was bluffing luckily. Adrenaline and stress make simple things hard.
Anyone ever listen to the podcast that was on rokslide last fall? Guy got charged by a grizz and shot it with his G20. Probably saved his life let alone a mauling. It’s a good listen. As for me, I would rather throw a lot of lead and stop the charge/distract the bear, or turn it than trying to hit it in the head with one shot. I seriously doubt anyone could do that during the “oh sh*#e! BEAR!” moment.
Any gun can jam…thats why you test.
My buddies .357 revolver wouldnt work on a hog one time, the drawstring on his jacket got wrapped in the gap between the cylinder and frame ( a total fluke, I know) Ive seen guy grip a revolver wrong and keep the cylinder from turning.
My stock G 20 has a 1,000 round track record…not one single failure….and thats with about 650 of those rds being hardcast too.
I have seen modified G20’s with different barrels and springs malfunction. Duh. A tighter chamber than the stock Glock barrel ( LW, Barsto, KKM ) can cause feeding problems.
I have seen my nieces and sister in law get a FTF in a couple of my 9mm Glocks. They were holding the pistol so loose it almost popped out of their hand. If you grip a semi auto, they can be 100%.
If you have weak hands or are a smaller woman, the only semi auto Ive ever seen that you cannot make it malfunction is an H&K. You can literally hold that gun between your thumb and forefinger and it will function.
My Glocks are 100% in my hands, one handed, shoot from the waist, off hand, etc.
Butcherboy I'm not necessarily shooting for his head at all. I think that's a huge misconception by some that may get them mauled or killed. I'm putting it in him. Or TRYING to I might say.
Ammoland compiles all the recorded cases of Pistol vs Bear. Excellent article if someone can post a link. The calibers ranged from. 22 to .500 S&W magnum. Come to your own conclusions based on actual events.
BEG. I wouldn't use a red dot sight on a pistol that you're hiking with in bear country. I've had the crystal shatter, batteries die, aluminum mounts on a plastic frame pistol come loose, and the crystal can condensate and freeze in a frigid environment. I can shoot faster with tritium open sights anyway.
“ As for me, I would rather throw a lot of lead and stop the charge/distract the bear, or turn it than trying to hit it in the head with one shot.”
Mind you… I’m not saying that this is actually an entirely logical extension of that thinking…
But if pepper spray is good, then why wouldn’t a 3 1/2” 12-gauge loaded with a ridiculous quantity of #8 or #9 birdshot be even better as a first round?
I think I’d want something really solid for #2 through Empty, mind you, but if a solid wall of light shot doesn’t sting a lot worse than spray….
“ Pepper spray should be trained with as well. I had a buddy who had never used it fail to get it working when a sow black bear was posing a threat”
No doubt about that!
I really wish that the pepper spray manufactures would do a better job of putting bear-strength spray into a system like the Mace pepper gun. All of the quick draw-functionality of a double action… With zero recoil.
Looks like people are now selling paintball guns with Capsaicin/tear-gas pellets, but I don’t think I like the concept against a bear.
My Benelli supernova has been shipped, it will be beside me this fall on the moose hunt, our new area is in grizzly and polar bear territory. Im thinking 00 buck shoot followed by a slug then 00 again. Likely never need it but im not messing around with pepper spray with a bear that wants to eat me!
Carcus, just load it with six, 3" Brenneke slugs. The idea of alternating shot and slugs sounds good in theory, but doesn't "bear" out on the ground. The purpose in a close range charge is expend all the bullets energy to physically stop the mass coming toward you. Think of a big club as opposed to stabbing. The stabbing will kill it eventually, but the big club will bring him to his knees, allowing you to finish the job.
Bears can soak up several bullets to the lungs and still go a ways, which is fine if you're hunting them. Not so good if he's close and coming to harm you!
One other aspect of the "deter them with shot" thought. If that happens and the bear leaves, you're now in the area of a wounded grizzly or brown bear. And even if you can extract, the bear may well seek revenge on the next unaware and unprepared person to happen by, even months later. If a bear threatens your life, kill it. Dead. Follow up if necessary.
Corax quote,” But if pepper spray is good, then why wouldn’t a 3 1/2” 12-gauge loaded with a ridiculous quantity of #8 or #9 birdshot be even better as a first round?”
I think thats the recommended load by AKFG… or at least it used to be.
FYI, I have buddies that had a pissed off brownie in their camp and they shot him in the face with birdshot as you suggest. He shook it off……and it pissed him off even more than he was before that….shortly there after he charged them.
.
Corax you don't understand. That's the problem we "allow" this behavior from bears. If a grizzly bear charges a human at close enough range to shoot it with bird shot it needs killed. End of story. To have any other mindset on it is nothing short of dangerous.
“ One other aspect of the ‘deter them with shot’ thought. If that happens and the bear leaves, you're now in the area of a wounded grizzly or brown bear… And even if you can extract, the bear may well seek revenge on the next [person]…”
Yep, I have thought that through several times… Bear with me… :p
That’s why I would think you’d want/need a pattern that would come as close as you could possibly imagine to guaranteeing that you’d blind the beast entirely with the first shot. Or at least take about half of its face off. Seems that if pepper would stop a charge, so would an impenetrable fog of birdshot.
Yes, you would have to finish the job. Just on principle.
But if a bear somehow survived the initial encounter… isn’t part of the logic behind Spray that the bears will not just quit the attack, but that they’ll learn - as they do with porcupines and skunks - to leave us alone in the future, isn’t it?
And bears are not well known for exacting “revenge” on skunks or porcupines, are they? Not worth the aggravation.
So I have always wondered about that “revenge” angle. (Not saying that a crippled bear that’s starving due to injury isn’t a poor choice for a neighbor in the backcountry.)
But when you pursue a wounded animal… it’s not coming after you. It’s trying to get away. If you bump a buck and it circles down-wind of its back-trail, it’s not Stalking you. It’s playing smart defense.
But an animal that is hurting and doesn’t feel like running is probably going to back into - or circle around into - a defensive position… at which point if you pursue it, you’re basically cornering a wounded animal… and walking into its Last Stand on its own, chosen terms. And in the case of an ambush predator, I don’t like your odds.
Just the same, that’s a far cry from the animal “seeking out Revenge”. It’s just trying to escape.
Note that I am not saying that a starving, fully or partially blinded bear is not going to seek out the easiest food available - which is quite likely to be a human camp/kill. Nor am I saying that I would care to be the next person to accidentally make that bear feel threatened. But neither is it going to forget what a bad experience it had the last time it ran into a human.
We spend a lot of time bashing the Antis for attributing human emotions to animals. I’m just not convinced that we’re not doing the same damn thing here.
And from a purely practical standpoint… I would be a lot more afraid of a one-eyed bear that had had its jaw broken by buckshot than a completely blind bear that couldn’t charge at me without running into a tree or tripping over a rock/log/pothole… or couldn’t see me dodging out of way.
Just seems off that on the one hand we’re saying there needs to be a season on L48 Griz to re-instill a little fear of humans…. and then we say that wounding one will turn it into a man-eater/hater/hunter.
I was in Alaska at bar and the subject turned to bears. This guy says the only way to stop a full out charge is with a 38. Let the bear grab your arm the put the 38 in the ear and squeez, he pulled up his left shirt arm and whar a mess of scars. He says yep happened three times to me.
Cor-L, an interior grizzly is a far different animal even amongst predators. Even brown bears , though larger, are often considered more even tempered. A male grizzly has to be dominate to survive and will use any opportunity to stake his claim. Food and breeding rights are often scarce and fiercely guarded. And, yes bears are much smarter than than nearly every animal in NA. Coyotes and wolves are right there, albiet they express there cleverness differently than a grizzly.
Does a grizzly seek revenge? In a human sense, I'd say no. But it is true that if a grizzly sees a threat, there is a good chance he will try to neutralize it to solidify his dominance. Wounded grizzlies have often been encountered having circled back and laying in wait on their back trail, sometimes dead, sometimes not.
The grizzlies here in BC are definitely becoming less afraid of humans, but so far we're mostly being treated as irrelevant. Neither food nor foe. The western states are experiencing an advanced stage of the process.
I've shot a few black bears with slugs. It typically slams their head to the dirt, resulting in a complete stop and roll. If you miss the head (good chance) then you should hit legs, back, chest or shoulder giving time for the follow ups. Anything other than a slug will cause only flesh wounds.
“ If a grizzly bear charges a human at close enough range to shoot it with bird shot it needs killed. End of story. To have any other mindset on it is nothing short of dangerous.”
Just since you seem to be missing my point on this…. I’m not advocating the use of the birdshot to do anything other than shock, blind and disorient the bear long enough to make it easier to place the slugs right where they will get the job done quickest.
I understand corax. I apologize. On the bears hunting humans or getting revenge I'm not sure that's not what we're already seeing as these bears being trapped and relocated know what a human is and know that's what put them in that trap and they're pissed about it! Next time they run into a human they'd better look out! Idk if bears can reason as such but they can smell and they know the smells that ultimately put them in the most danger and they aren't scared of a human.
“ If a grizzly bear charges a human at close enough range to shoot it with bird shot it needs killed. End of story. To have any other mindset on it is nothing short of dangerous.”
Just since you seem to be missing my point on this…. I’m not advocating the use of the birdshot to do anything other than shock, blind and disorient the bear long enough to make it easier to place the slugs right where they will get the job done quickest.
Lots of these buggers where I bow hunt black bears.
Lots of these buggers where I bow hunt black bears.
Folks should do what they think is right for them, then there’s no one else to blame. I’ll admit to being pretty cavalier around bears having had hundreds of encounters. I carry spray. If I’m worried about a bear during meat retrieval, I pack a full stock Remington 870 with a 12.5” barrel. Six slugs. I’d prefer an auto but good ones are expensive.
“ Wounded grizzlies have often been encountered having circled back and laying in wait on their back trail, sometimes dead, sometimes not.”
But when deer & Elk bed down down-wind of their back trail (wounded or not) we don’t assume that they have Vengeance in mind - they are simply playing good D.
But again - ambush predator. Full-time, professional grade. I sure don’t want to piss one off. And I sure as hell wouldn’t ever trail a wounded Griz without a HEAVY firearm… by which I mean a rifle chambered for a RIFLE round. Or maybe the Smith .500, since it’s pretty much a heavy rifle round from the ground up. Might be a market for a semi-auto rifle built around that one… I really like my big lever, but I am so much faster, smoother, and more reliable with a bolt that it would be pretty silly of me to stake it all on the 1895 vs a potent short mag or something like the .500 Smith in a bolt.
Maybe I should buy myself a good lever action .22 and go burn 10,000 rounds or so and see how I like it….
Everyone has been talking calibers or spray here and I think your are all missing an important point with the pistols. You should be modifying the pistol to the situation! Its generally always the same. The pistol will be best suited by filing down the front sight so it is flush with the barrel. Take care to round over all sharp burrs and edges. This is critical. That way when the bear takes it from you and shoves it up your ying yang it won't hurt so bad. Hope this helps someone...
I own several short lever actions in various calibers. Light, handy, and accurate out to 80-100 yards. Faster than a bolt action for sure, and I've used bolt actions to kill stuff for almost 30 years. One of the 3 shootings I was involved in I responded with a Berretta 92 and I've never felt so under armed and impotent. I instantly wished I had a shotgun or rifle. I can only assume I'd feel the same way with a giant brown bear.
I used to pack a short shotgun on Kodiak on a sling over my shoulder.
Many years ago, I jumped a big brownie in the thick alders at close range while bushwhacking across canyon. He had been in one of those dugout beds the size of a meteor crater- so hard to see until it was too late. Luckily he was gone in a flash as he could have been on me by the time I got that shotgun over my shoulder. Which, btw was a problem I hadn’t considered in those thick alders grabbing at the sling.
I can draw a pistol from a belt holster and shoot in under 2 seconds.
“ Faster than a bolt action for sure,”
I guess that depends how slow you are with a bolt.
I copied Kevin Dills Alaska rifle. Marlin Guide Gun 45-70 Skinner sights, large loop, action and trigger job.
If your not hunting alone, why not have one archery hunter and the other guy has a rifle or shotgun. Everyone also Carry’s a hand gun to get you back to a long gun.
Thornton’s story about the Berreta 92 made me think of a funny story. It was told to me by a good friend but it may not be a fact. Seems this Deputy Sheriff went to church in his uniform and carrying his sidearm. An older lady ask him if he was expecting trouble. “No Ma’am” he answered, “if I was expecting trouble I would have brought my rifle”. A point to ponder.
Corax there's really no reason to argue the matter. Even with a straight pull bolt gun,it doesn't even come close to a pistol caliber lever gun. Feel free to google these videos.
Dry creek, although I was a volunteer deputy at a small town in college, this shooting I'm referring to happened last spring at my house. Drug deal turf fight in the street, and the guy started shooting. The bullet detectives retrieved for evidence came out of my tree that stopped the bullet from hitting my house. The other bullets ended up in my neighbor's bedroom and garage. Not knowing what happened, I was out the back door and circled around the house with my Beretta and Kevlar in about 1 minute. I was quick enough, I was able to see the vehicle, and the guy came back around the block I suppose to see what he hit. He looked right at me and sped off. The cops got him a short time later using my description of the vehicle.
#1 - How fast somebody on YouTube is with a lever has next to nothing to do with how fast you are or how fast I am. If you search on YouTube, you can see Usain Bolt run the hundred meter dash. Doesn’t mean YOU can do it in anything close.
#2 - Who said anything about restricting yourself to a pistol caliber? And if you were seriously expecting big, toothy trouble with long claws, why would you even consider that? (Special consideration for the really big Smiths and the BFR, which is a pistol chambered for a rifle cartridge.) Yes, a carbine will get more out of a pistol round than a revolver will, but if you’re going to carry the weight of a rifle, you might as well carry a flippin’ Rifle. I don’t know if the Casull can be used in a little Marlin, but that’s another that can blur the lines a bit, I suppose. Maybe it’s too bad that there is no lever action in a .480 Ruger? (or did they come out with that and I just didn’t notice because I don’t really follow guns anymore?)
#3 - Once your cycling rate gets down to the same interval as your recovery from recoil, there is no longer a difference between the two, because only AIMED shots count. The one time I had to shoot fast on a second shot with my 7-08 bolt rifle, the bolt was secure before the crosshairs settled. I don’t know what would be necessary to be faster than that.
Jay’s Dill-inspired Marlin looks pretty thoughtfully modified. My only complaint with it is that it would be awfully hard on your ears to practice much with it, but that porting could save your bacon given the recoil output of a hot loaded .45/70 or a .450 Marlin. Yeah, I know… Hearing protection. But I lost a really big chunk of hearing on my right side after an hour at the range next to some moron with a “ported” mil-surp carbine, and I was wearing muffs AND plugs… as I always do. I guess I’d rather be deaf than dead, but…. And maybe a ported rifle is no louder than a revolver anyway?
At any rate…
The only thing that matters is what words FOR YOU, personally. There is no one right answer.
I am really impressed to share this site with guys who have been able to hit both eyes of an attacking brown bear with their first shot.
At least I assume that is the case given how much conviction some have regarding their opinions on the topic.
A rifle is always better due to being shoulder fired and longer sight plane. As said a thousand times before, the only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to a rifle. Problem is, like you said, a rifle can be cumbersome. All I know is, I've shot over 50 whitetails, several mulies, 6 elk, and 5 pronghorn and I don't know how many coyotes with a scoped bolt action of various calibers, and a fair number of them running (I live in open country). My farthest shot was running straight away at 455 yards. Follow up shots if needed were a tad slower than a lever gun for the fact your hand is not already on the action, and most bolts have a degree of throw before pulling back. If you read that link I posted, most pistol calibers were successful in deterring bear attacks. Some of those same calibers will be even better in a lever action due to better accuracy and increased Velocity. I had already considered the long action rifle calibers, hence the reason for using pistol calibers as example of better repeatability on speed in a lever action vs a bolt action. As proven by the link to Ammoland, the Alaska Fish and Game website clearly states that magnum calibers are not needed. That being said, I would carry only the following pistol caliber carbines including : 45 long Colt handloaded to at least 1500 fps, 44-40 handloaded to at least 1500 fps, 44 mag, 357 mag,or 454 Cassull.
@Matt -
It’s the off-season… if we couldn’t sit around and chew the fat, we’d all go out of our freaking minds.
All I can tell you is that I can cycle my 7-08 a lot faster than my .45/70… All about practice.
Williams Gunsight in Davison Mi. Did the action and trigger work. The action is amazing. Smooth and solid. Zero slop or side movement. And the work was reasonably priced compared to companies like (Grizzly)
Yeah ported barrels are loud. But I don’t need to shoot at a range. And if I had to back someone up with a shot while they are bow hunting. I think they would appreciate me getting back on target sooner and forgive me.
The field diverges at hunting or defensive. Unless you want to go the "jack of all trades and master of none" route.
Both would work equally well for me when the griz charges me and I point the gun at my temple and pull the trigger to save myself the agony of being eaten by a griz.
Yeah, I get it....some are calling this subject mental masturbation....
I think its, Survival favors the prepared...and I'm living proof of it.
These subjects get debated to death....but is it really a bad thing? I look at that incident a couple years ago where the guide was charged and killed and his hunter couldn't operate their only unloaded backup gun. To add insult to injury, the hunter ejected the magazine before he tossed it to the guide.
Theres a case where a bit of thinking it through beforehand and communication would have saved that guides life.
Mental masturbation questions;
When hunting that grizzly country, who rides back in without a shotgun or a rifle and without giving instruction to the hunter?
Who keeps their defensive handgun in their pack anyway...or packs it around on an empty chamber?
Why wasn't the hunter standing guard with a firearm in their hand ready to go?
Maybe your answer to these questions or the gist of this thread [practice, practice, practice] help some Dad to come home to his kids......
To be clear, my tongue in cheek comment was not disparaging preparedness, but rather bravado around the minutia. If almost any of us was surprised by a charging brown bear, the strategy tied to the differing shot placement based on the order that shells with different payloads were put into the chamber/magazine wouldn't come to mind until well after the smoke had cleared. A shot would hopefully get fired before contact (which requires presenting the weapon, disengaging safety, etc.), would hopefully be aimed, and would hopefully hit something substantial enough to avert the attack.
A guide friend had a client continue to pull the trigger on an empty DA wheel gun after a charging grizzly bear was down and out (click, click, click, click, click).
My belief is about the level of conscious response most people would exhibit when faced with an actual charge/attack. Contrast that with some thinking they would have the wherewithal to put an aimed shot to the eyes and then all subsequent shots to the CNS.
When I am on Kodiak, my pistol is on my pack belt with 1 in the chamber, loaded when I hit the beach and unloaded when the skiff arrives. And I have trained to where I can draw from the holster and put 2 aimed shots in a human-sized thoracic cavity at 5 yards in ~1.5 seconds. I hope to never find out how my training translates in the field. Add to that the instructors I have trained with say that, in the heat of battle, most perform ~50% as well as their highest level of training.
I’ve had a lot of military training and post military training. As the saying goes. Your skills degrade every minute off the range.
Some training courses and instructors are better than others.
A trainer I can’t recommend highly enough is John McPhee.
He has classes all over the eastern US at very reasonable prices. He also has online training. You send him a video of specific tasks and he diagnoses issues. It’s amazingly effective for people just needing a tune up or enhancement.
Real life training from a guy that’s cleared more rooms in a night then a Swat guy gets in 30 yrs.
Tell him you want to prepare for a charging Bear at 10 yds. He’ll get you ready.
Sobtactical.com
An example of the video diagnostics. You record yourself shooting. send him a video and he slows it down to every split second. Then coaches you through issues he sees. All timed. he can break down each sequence of your shot process. In very short order he drastically improves your skills. Attending a class is better but this online training is a great tool.
I hate to give an Army puke too much credit but the Army Tier 1 guys are top notch.
I view training as something city folks do that don't shoot very much.
Here John critiques my grip allow too much muzzle rise. He tuned my grip up quickly.
Reload drill. I was reloading too far in front. He took a lot of time off my reloads.
The pistol should be in the circle while reloading
Here you can see too much muzzle jump. Before he corrected me. 9mm
Shot timer and too much muzzle jump.
Thorton, Do You see any high rises in the back ground. :>)))
I’m five miles from a village with a 3 way stop as the downtown.
And I practice A lot
Thornton: all should come from the East and spend a thousand to spend a weekend with you to get the true pix of real life in the wild.
I'm certainly not the best shot out there but I won enough at the state sporting clays championships to break even and pay for my travel, shells, motels, and entry fees 3 years in a row. The year I got first in class. I didn't even shoot my registered targets or practice and that can actually be looked up. Having a house in the country with no internet or TV and limited cell service and about 80 guns scattered around makes for an expensive past time. I have a 100 yard range I can shoot out of every east window on cold days, and a 400 yard range between the barn and silo. I run my business through my Cabelas card and the points covers a lot of my ammo which is sometimes several hundred bucks a month. Other months I just shoot .22s several times a week or sometimes every day. Squaring up with a perfect bilateral grip often isn't the case. I practice with one hand quite a bit with pistols. Using both hands, I can routinely hit my 80 yard gong with everything but my .380 pocket pistols or my short barreled. 38 revolvers. I'm also pretty good at hitting my 300 yard gong with my high-powered rifles without using a rest.
Not a bear, but he was fast!
Not a bear, but he was fast!
AS, did you ever get any feedback to hold the gun in a bit closer/bend the elbows to allow you to increase isometric tension and decrease muzzle rise? Seems like there are many ways to skin a cat.
When I was first taught they preached the modified Weaver. And many still use it. But no I’ve switched to this stance, presentation and grip.
Thorton is correct. Standing squared up. Only teaches proper form. Like starting archery with proper form. It’s very important to practice off hand shooting and reloads. Doing one hand and off hand from your back also
I posted the previous info not to get into a big di$k contest. But to add to the topic of getting proper training. Instead of buying a big gun and hoping. And to help people that want affordable practical training from a legit Delta force operator. ( actually They don’t use or like the term Delta Force). I used it for reference He’s helped tune up my shooting quickly and cheap. I am merely a student of his. Not Doc Holiday or the American Sniper. Just the prepared.
Great points Rocky. Master the fundamentals
Trust me I’m not some tactical vest wearing sidewalk commando wanna be And have nothing to gain by pushing John as an instructor. I just thought I would share for people that want an affordable way to get prepared to carry, draw and engage safely and effectively. Many people that offer training are not very good at training other people. The video diagnostics are very effective tools that you do on your schedule at a reasonable cost. As said many many times on similar threads. Get training from somewhere and be prepared for 2 and 4 leggers.
I've never trained reloading. I don't figure it's a skill a 4th grader couldn't handle as well as it needs to be in any of my scenarios or anyone's concerning bears.
For hundreds of years we trained with one hand, clear to the point of death by duel. It has quickly become a lost practice. I would venture to say most guys can't hit much with one hand, especially with a large caliber pistol or revolver. A hundred scenarios could play put where your other hand is needed even if it was to move branches while retreating or moving combative bystanders in a hostile situation.
In the event you don't want or can't afford a private teacher practice drawing to where it becomes second nature." The rule is slow is fast and fast is slow. " also, plenty of videos on you tube that can be watched and learned from, just pick the ones with X military or police doing the teaching. Stay away from Tex grubner lol. The only thing you'll learn from him is how to shoot yourself in the thigh lol.
I treated one of our ex military pistol instructors in ER years ago. He attempted a quick draw with a 1911 he had crammed into a molded plastic holster meant for a Browning Hi-power. First shot cut a deep groove down his anterior thigh which caused him to flinch, sending another bullet groove right next to the first one. Both 9mm grooves were deep and about 10" long. His pride was hurt more than anything.
In the event you don't want or can't afford a private teacher practice drawing to where it becomes second nature." The rule is slow is fast and fast is slow. " also, plenty of videos on you tube that can be watched and learned from, just pick the ones with X military or police doing the teaching. Stay away from Tex grubner lol. The only thing you'll learn from him is how to shoot yourself in the thigh lol.
I like where this thread is going; training
These threads always seem to devolve into; “my blaster is bigger/better than your blaster” when its really about preparedness and training.
One of the best bowhunters I know doesn’t have a dozen rounds down the barrel of his bear defense weapon. Not good.
I posted a link of the Uptain mauling, lots of read between the lines info there.
Lastly, i do think a cheap laser bullet is the best $16 you can spend when it comes to firearms training.
I’m in the camp of shoot something you can shoot well under duress. Have had my pistol drawn on a few black bears over the years but never had to pull the trigger. Hoping if I ever run into a griz (and I do have to pull the trigger) it goes something like this.....................
Two friends went to the Predator Defense class at Gunsite Academy (AZ) and had good things to say about it. The class included Robo Bear, a remote-controlled charging bear target.
Seeing that video, I wonder if he *intended* to shoot into the water...
It sounds like every one is in agreement.
A lever action, semi auto 500 S&W revolver with buck shot and slugs.
LOL! Well, this one probably comes the closest! ;-)
Dana- I’m assuming since he only fired once, it was intentional. If that was me, I think I would have fired more than once and would have at least tried to get closer to the target! ;-)
I’ve tried many times shooting squared up and I can hit the target but I shoot way more accurately with the old Weaver stance like Paul Harrel shoots. For anyone having issues shooting give it a try. I think I shoot better due to the gun being alittle closer to my eyes not sure but it works for me!
Good episode on stance. Love Paul’s videos
I still get a kick out of this one- Rob Lathum, very short vid
Arguably THE expert on fast accurate pistol shooting; Rob, "First thing the instructor tells you is align the sights and squeeze the trigger...its all Bullshit"
I love this guy...at link
Great video,
He is absolutely correct. It’s Grip, Grip, Grip. If the gun is indexed properly to begin with and someone has a proper grip. Someone 5’ to the side should be able to run the trigger with a dowel rod. IF the weapon is gripped properly.
Then, it’s trigger straight back.
Sorry, that's like trying to teach an 'instinctive' shooter to practice good form ;-) (I *know!*)
Makes sense to me. I can’t imagine a defensive situation where any real aiming would be on the radar, but if the round is jerked clear of the bull…. Better hope they have sensitive hearing and bad nerves.
Just the perspective of someone who has overcome a wicked flinch…
These things happen SO fast…
Though I can’t help but think that if I were floating a river and I saw cubs… Gun’s coming out NOW.
I’m glad that sow was not harmed. And maybe with several guys in the boat, presumably all armed, it’s smarter to try to turn out the charge with no blood spilled, rather than setting yourself up to go into the alders after 4 Griz, one of ‘em wounded…. & thoroughly pissed off.
One big mistake when some start to shoot a handgun is starting out with a big caliber and a flinch is developed. Start out with a 22 and learn good habits then move up in caliber.
LB, the same holds true for rifles. I do a fair amount of shooting with my 22's, makes it easier when practicing with a centerfire, slug gun or ML.
That instinctive comment was funny Dana....
Obviously a person has to aim.....and learn how to aim. I did a CQB pistol class years ago and the stat they gave us for law enforcement hits in a gunfight was a paltry 17%. WTF? The instructors put it bluntly; They didn't aim. And the avg distance was close...something like 15'. That was 30 years ago. Training has changed a lot.....and I think they brought that percentage up a few points- grin
Leathum's good...but of course what he was referring to is AFTER someone that practiced their draw to the point you could draw with your eyes closed and when open the pistol was aligned....then its all about gripping the gun.
Any of you guys shoot both eyes open? My uncle taught me how when I was 12. I've used it ever since on everything from pistol shooting to sporting clays to long range with a scoped high power. Absolutely deadly on a deer drive and you've got a few seconds to get a shot into a running buck headed across the open.
I'm never going to shoot at Thorton's house ever again.
I watched a video of a Chicago narcotics detective that was involved in 14 gunfights in his career and he said when it hits the fan he finds himself basically point shooting with just the front sight.
Hopefully at center mass.
Anyone here remember a little book titled 'Hit the White Part!' by Massad Ayoob? Mainly about bowling pin shooting but solid advice. His book titled 'Stressfire' is also a good one.
From: Corax_latrans 25-Apr-22
I’m glad that sow was not harmed. And maybe with several guys in the boat, presumably all armed, it’s smarter to try to turn out the charge with no blood spilled, rather than setting yourself up to go into the alders after 4 Griz, one of ‘em wounded…. & thoroughly pissed off.
Why would you “go into the Alders after 4 griz?”
I would float on by whether I wounded one of them or not. If it stopped the threat, I am out of there ASAP!
In that case, please keep everybody filled in on your itinerary… Because I don’t think anybody wants to go into an area if you’ve just been through it with that attitude.
I said before that I don’t think animals like bears have any sense of Vengeance, but I’m sure that they will defend themselves if they feel pressured when they are hurting. And ambush predator tactics make for a good defense.
I’ve never heard of a human – bear altercation in which a bear was wounded and the authorities did not go in and end it. The only thing I would like even less than surprising a big bear would be surprising a big, wounded bear.
And FWIW- I am a huge proponent of the mighty .22 LR. The first rifle I ever bought was a seven mag. The first thing I did with it was to develop a ridiculous flinch. The next thing I did was to buy a good .22, and I proceeded to burn eight or ten thousand rounds through it shooting rimfire silhouettes at 50. No more flinch. It’s amazing what you can hit when you keep your eyes open until the bullet strikes.
Bought my first 7 mag at age 18. Shot more game with that rifle from Kansas to Canada than any other I own.
I think dryfire with one of these makes for some good trigger time. My wife is conditioned to me having a pistol on the coffee table while watching a football/ baseball/basketball game with one of the laser bullets in there. Yeah dryfire with focus on the front sight is good…but the laser shows you exactly how steady you are holding the pistol.
If that laser is bouncing around, you need grip work. It helps you diagnose what you are doing wrong too. Its typical for RH shooters to group low left when squeezing the trigger down instead of straight back. You can rectify issues like that.
There are 9mm laser bullet on Amazon for $25 ( I wish they had 10mm more avail)
From: Corax_latrans 27-Apr-22
In that case, please keep everybody filled in on your itinerary… Because I don’t think anybody wants to go into an area if you’ve just been through it with that attitude.
Not sure what you mean by “that attitude?” I think it would just be common sense NOT to go into heavy brush after a wounded Grizzly. Obviously I would contact the local authorities and report the incident ASAP. But I would let the professionals handle it from there.
Corax, despite being unable to proficiently handle a 7 mag, regressed to a .22, then a 7mm 08. He is now the expert on all things guns.
RutNut, do you think wounding a dangerous animal and then passing the buck to the 'professionals' is a *good* idea? Around here people with that attitude get elected Mayor ;-)
7mag brings to my mind the guy I saw at the public range while I had the duty there. He was shooting with a bench rest and had to stop after each shot and pick up his ball cap behind him. I decided then and there to be happy with my .308.
Dana- obviously it's not an optimal situation. I would do what I need to do for self protection. If the outcome was wounding a griz that went in to thick cover I would not be foolish enough to go in after it. Let the professionals come in with a chopper, trucks or UTV's and much more firepower, manpower and equipment than I can provide.
2wildBill- 7 mag is mild compared to a lot of calibers. In a cheap, light gun, it might be bad, but 10 shots for a sight in is doable. I've got a Tikka and a Winchester M70. With the YHM silencer, it had very tame recoil and sounds like a. 22. My friend's 10 year old daughter shot a buck with it last year and proclaimed it was her favorite rifle.
“He is now the expert on all things guns.”
Nope, but I know a Thang or two about developing (and getting beyond) a REALLY bad flinch. And I have no delusions about being the Baddest MoFo in the room, so I don’t feel any need to make excuses for not thinking that I need a belted magnum to kill whitetails at stickbow range.
Of course I don’t NEED a .45/70 or a .54, either, but they’re fun to shoot.
For that matter, I don’t NEED a #62 longbow, either, but it just SHOOTS so damn well for me….
