Bowfreak's Link
If true..... finally a shred of sanity, morality and decency.
Leak is obviously an attempt to gain back some sort of momentum for Democrats in the mid-terms.
It won't' work, but it is an admirable low-rent attempt!
Pete
Always amazes me how pundits on both sides refuse to believe in 'backlash'.
If/when SCOTUS does overturn Roe v Wade, and I believe they will at least partially do so, it will galvanize the heck out of liberal women, and probably a lot of middle-of-the-roaders as well.
Personally I'm more concerned about the 'right of privacy' that RvW was based on. Will SCOTUS decide that we do not enjoy any such right? The implications are scary. (For instance, imagine that all your gun purchases are now 'public records' and anyone can publish them.)
Right to privacy is a poor argument relative to roe v wade. You don't perform an abortion in your own home and it has absolutely nothing to do with women's health.
If indeed it is true, and overturned at the federal level, it will flesh out the states that share liberal viewpoints instead of hiding behind the feds skirt.
"Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're f@#!"- George Carlin 1996- (edited out big bad f word for the sissies on here)
Ah, the old "you want rights you're a communist, I want to take your rights my God is freedom" rational
Notice how you didnt actually make an arguement except default to the republican playbook of screaming "communism" when you cant think of anything good to say
if the Govt tells people abortion is wrong, the babies are valuable and precious, do that for a decade and people will believe abortion is wrong, babies are valuable and precious
I hope its true - the leaked info says Fed laws won't control abortion, state laws will
That's just one example. How about your health records? Financials?
The ONLY people who need to be responsible for these, are THE PARENTS. If you can't feed 'em, then don't breed 'em. But that's a difficult concept for a "Gimme" Democrats to grasp and and don't expect you to as you're not capable.
This has been and will always be a disingenuous argument; first it draws a false equivalence between caring for the unborn versus believing in the concept of personal responsibility (the parties to the conception; obvious exception being rape).
This argument stems from the belief that one should not be held responsible for one's actions if those actions produce consequences one is not prepared to deal with responsibly. It's the textbook example of passing the buck, in this case not asking but demanding that the taxpayers pick up the tab.
It's couched in the language used because it's a transparent attempt to vilify; it's the stock and trade of the liberal; when the facts don't support an argument drive the argument towards pure emotion.
Sorry, not buying what you're selling.
"No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. "
Bullshit look around poor kids get breakfast and lunch now,free Obamacare,all get Head Start free,who needs food stamps the EBT is everywhere.Free daycare for the high school mommies.
And those that survive to can live in Dem cities and be killed by other Dems.
How long before we can stop playing games and get on with the inevitable split of red/blue states to live the way we want among people who share the same common values???
As far as food stamps and welfare, well, you can thank your local liberal for that one. "Government care is not a necessity, but an evil we must tolerate from time to time."
WW and others on here hit the nail on the head ....""The ONLY people who need to be responsible for these, are THE PARENTS."
He still believes there is no problem at the Southern border. Why would anyone listen to anything else he says?
My last duty as a USN Hospital Corpmen in 72 was in Labor/Delivery and unfortunately abortion procedures was part of it. Never forget that the CO's 16 yr old daughter was bought in 2am for the procedure and the suction machine was used and the fetus was disposed of and everyone that was involved was order to keep it unspoken, I was the person that had to deal with all of the end results. This was a vast difference from dealing with a stillborn. Remember the saying that Nixon withdraw from Viet Nam was what his father should have done, not a pleasant time area and coming out as a vet. May the Lord save the Republic.
You might want to go back to my post and re-read this part: " (the parties to the conception; obvious exception being rape)"
You may also want to eschew straw man arguments for awhile as well; no one who's responded to your post or this topic has said anything about forcing the victim of a rape to have the baby.
Finally, you might want to consider investing some time in researching a topic before showing how uniformed about it you are; to begin with the number of abortions performed due to cases of rape or incest is less than 10% of all abortions.
Hopefully you may weigh in again with a post that's worthy of the gravity of the subject; so far you've fallen well short of the mark....
Full outright bans regardless of the life of the mother will be next
I frankly don't understand the hand-wringing. If you don't like what your state does, elect someone else. Or move.
And personally the thought of a "rape exemption" gives me the cold chills. Imagine how many false reports of rape there will be if the only way to get an abortion is to get an exemption for rape . . . .
I really struggle with the overall personal accountability aspect of this issue. I can't imagine that it gets any simpler--if you don't want or can't afford the results, then don't have sex. Seems pretty damn clear cut to me.
Also all murders are homicides but not all homicides are murders.... and some homicides are legal. Durrr
Oklahoma aside this still leaves the vast majority (a bit over 90%) of pregnancies not involving rape or incest; I'd avoid addressing this inconvenient fact if I wanted to keep the argument an emotional one as opposed to one grounded in the facts.
" and some homicides are legal. Durrr"
I hope you're not falling back to the argument many liberals employ by trying to cast those who are against abortion but in favor of capital punishment as hypocritical?
I've had that one tossed my way and I've refrained from laughing at the sheer absurdity out of politeness; my reply to that argument is that if the person can provide an example of a capital crime perpetrated by a fetus I'm open to that discussion.
Murder is in fact murder. Don't twist the meaning with fancy jargon you have no idea how to use...
All pregnancies require a male at some point - so yeah, I'd say men have a rightful say in the matter as well.
Or worse, a stunt by radical libtard activists to push congress to stack the Supreme Court and nuke the filibuster prior to the Dems losing power.
Nothing. Are you incapable of ignoring a thread you have no interest in?
far as i know, no aborted baby ever got the opportunity to bow hunt.
My ex was raped at age 12. Her child was carried to full term and given up for adoption at birth. There are alternatives to abortion.
Will the upswing in first-time voters that are women change the outcome of any political contests this November? We will know in about 185 days.
im fine with just relying on the constitution.
Mississippi also has a trigger law in place which will ban nearly all abortions should Roe be overturned, as do a dozen other States.
pretty sure the constitution gives states that right.
Can't they just pop a pill to prevent getting pregnant? Or have the guy wear a rubber? Or just not screw like rabbits if they don't want to to have an unintended baby? Or take the morning-after pill if they mess up any of the previous instructions???
Or if ALL of that fails... they could have the child and live with their life choices. Or even give the child up for adoption.
How is murdering the unwanted baby the first-best choice for these women???
there are radicals on both sides but the overwhelming number of people that are against abortion are not against birth control.
Nope, we are a Constitutional Republic of federated states. We elect representatives to make laws, but we don't vote on every little thing at the national level, like killing babies or gun ownership. The USSC appears ready to defer to the Constitution on this issue, which either defers to the states or leaves it up to Congress to pass a law one way or the other.
Roe is an interpretation, just like the Causby/Leo USSC interpretations impact corner crossing. Nowhere in the Constitution or the Bible is abortion mentioned.
I never said it didn't. I was responding to Stix's comment about the abortion ban prior to 15 weeks. While that is the law that is at question, a ruling that overturns Roe will have immediate ramifications regarding abortion rights and going further than banning abortion prior to 15 weeks in MS (and other states). He was alluding to laws in Europe being more stringent than MS - if Roe is overturned that will not be the case.
Abortion kills more then the unborn, it just takes decades sometimes.
Lots of things in life sound good at the time, until you do it. Happens to me regularly.
Pray for our country, the unborn, and those burdened with hidden shame, sorrow and regret. There is nothing good that comes from an abortion, it is NOT a joyful thing.
As for abortion, I'd grant it for rape/incest cases. And make birth control plentiful for everyone. With that, would all democrats then be on board??? Or are those concerns just empty talking points?
The democrats don’t care about women. This whole thing is about the democrats and their planned parenthood MONEY. Why anyone would admit supporting the left and their drama filled false outrage is beyond me. Of course, recently, the bowlibs haven’t even been as outspoken as they typically are. It must be embarrassing to support pure stupidity in a regular basis?!
I don't think "This personifies the true character of this country currently" is accurate, it personifies our government corruption and direction.
Quite certain that religious doctrine, or the tenets of religious doctrine, were used as the premise for our Constitution and system of government...
less than 1% of all abortions are because of rape. ask any "pro choice" advocate if the only abortions that should be available are for victims of rape and youll find out real quick that the rape thing is a red herring.
KSflatlander's Link
MOST people would agree in the case of rape that carrying to full term would cause PTSD that would bring in other issues and complications.
And, the only thing that polls show are the results of the selected audience to provide the results sought after...
Norma vacillated between pro-life and pro-choice over the remainder of her life getting baptized and joining an evangelical church. On her death bed, she recanted and claimed the pro-life folks "paid her off" to join them. "Baby Roe", Shelley Lynn Thornton, chose not to meet Ms. McCorvey before her death because she suspected Ms. McCorvey only wanted to meet her for publicity.
Fast forward and there have been in excess of 60 MILLION abortions since 1973 and that ruling. It's hard to believe this thrice impregnated woman with mental and emotional trauma was the spark for so many abortions since.
Although, the federal government may send the issue back to the states to be decided by the people of each state, we have been involved in the single largest genocide in human history and most of us don't blink an eye over it. I'm trying to come up with a math formula for the percentage of incest/rape out of the 60 MILLION??????????????
it's a red herring in that it is an excuse pro choice advocates give for wanting abortions to be legal but when you take that off the table they start adding other things like health of the mother...which is also very rare... first trimester...etc...just like you just did.
so would you be willing to make all abortions due to rape and a verifiable risk to the mothers life legal...and all others illegal?
Sounds crazy right?
Yes, and I would focus on preventative measures (abundant, readily available, and free).
so you would be ok with 98+% of all abortions being illegal? if thats true, you definitely do not represent the vast majority of pro choice advocates.
No such thing.
Yes
With such extra ordinary measures he became a healthy boy, athlete teenager, great soccer player. Now almost 40 he fights an estranged wife for custody of his three children that she really never wanted. Sure they could have used birth control, she could have had several abortions but I doubt he would give those kids up for anything. After all who the heck would know more about the sanctity of life than someone who really wasn't supposed to be here??
Unecessary abortions happen all the time. In my opinion they should be rare. Life is just that precious. What concerns me more is the leak. Yet one more attempt to circumvent the American system by woke idiots, thugs and someone thinking they are above the law. Any law clerk or other SCOUTS employee signed non-disclosure agreement upon becoming an employee. They need to be identified, charged and prosecuted. End of story.
we agree then...do you think that can be said of the majority of the those who consider themselves pro-choice?
I can see that happening on almost all fronts. Until we get to the murdering of an innocent child. That is where evil steps in. And, as grasshopper noted, that is the burden many suffer through until it destroys them.
FWIW, the Bible is very clear on abortion. In more then one way. Saying different doesn’t change that. Murder is forbidden in the commandments. And, there is zero doubt when life begins. Abortion Is not debatable on any front if basing it on biblical law.
No, it isn't. Numbers 5:11-31 describes the test of the unfaithful wife, which involves giving a woman an abortion.
Exodus 21:22-24 says that if a woman is struck and miscarries the offender should be fined. Whereas, if a woman is struck and she dies the perpetrator forfeits his life too. Clearly there are different value judgements placed on the woman and her fetus, and the fetus is not treated like a living human being.
Plenty of prominent Christians have struggled as to answering the question of when life begins, or how to correlate the spiritual and biological development of a fetus. Saint Augustine felt the abortion of a fetus with limbs and shape was murder, but prior to that, it likely wasn't. As he said, "Now who is there that is not rather disposed to think that unformed abortions perish, like seeds that have never fructified?"
The Bible provided no guidance and provides zero answers on the question of when a human life begins.
Furthermore, murder may indeed be forbidden in the Commandments, but from Jesus' contemporaries to English common law and beyond, abortion of a pre-quickened fetus was deemed okay and abortion of a fetus post-quickening was not treated as murder.
Normal people are opposed to killing other innocent humans.
Normal people believe a person's health choices should be their own.
Whether you look at an unborn child as a human or as a lump of cells generally dictates the stance on abortion.
Pro-life folks don't oppose a woman getting a tumor removed.
Pro-choice people don't oppose requiring a burden on parents if it means saving the life of that parents toddler.
I was sort of ambivalent in my youth about abortion. Maturing and seeing my kids ultrasounds and the unexplainable feeling when you hold your child for the first time cemented my views.
We aren't solving this issue any time soon.
God taking the life of a child is not an abortion. This is what happens in the test for an unfaithful wife. God takes other lives in the OT too. They weren't abortions either. Man does not have this right, only God does.
I have no idea what you are claiming with regard to the Exodus verses.
Wonder what St. Augustine would think if he saw a 4D Ultrasound or could listen to the heartbeat of a baby that is yet to have limbs?
God strictly prohibits murder. Abortion is murder.
Seeing as the point of viability was labeled as 24 weeks per Roe and that >99% of abortions occur at <21 weeks (with 93% occurring before week 13), what exactly is it that you think is being contorted?
in terms of the law, the bible is irrelevant...the constitution is not.
... .
"The unborn” are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn." -Pastor Dave Barnhart, 2018-
Now move our goal posts...
(Literally dont care what your religion says)
I think it’s easy to let our emotions concentrate on the “murder” part while not paying attention to what type of life these kids likely will be subjected to.
I don’t like late term abortions as I do believe you should be able to make a decision within a month or two once you know your pregnant.
Rape cases def need to be able to get abortions in my opinion.
It’s not fair that the males can just run off with no repercussions after knocking someone up!
I think most sane people are okay with abortion with restrictions. Ie.... before 20 weeks or for the reasons stated above
Yet I hear few suggestions on how to MAKE the man responsible
Fix that, and I’ll be open to stricter abortion rules.
Its fairly simple I dont consider a 15 week developing human fetus/Embroy a actual human or baby. Is it alive? Sure is it going to be a baby soon? Absolutely. does it at that stage of development deserve the same rights, freedoms, and and protections as an 8 month developeding baby or a birthed one? Nope. Simple... no.
And if my dog miscarried at 1/4th of the way to having pups or I had to abort to save its life. Than I would do it in a heart beat. Honestly not really comparable to humans. Considering to get the domesticated dog early man culled 90% of offspring due to undesirable traits(aggression)
8 month old humans can't survive on their own. Why not move the time frame out to say 12 years. Give the kid some time to prove itself. If it looks like an undesirable human "abort " it then.
Of course I know that is insane, but so is murdering an unborn human being simply because you don't want it!!!
Democrats have learned threats, riots, violence and intimidation are way more effective than the ballot box.
ESPECIALLY, if I had my way with that too, if we can prove them guilty of killing someone than I say we kill them. Double homicide wouldn’t matter, dead is dead. Those type of things only matter in our weak ass justice system that started going down the drain as soon as we grew emotionally attached to everything
“If the 13% equates to 27% of the abortions”
Nobody else is killing their babies out of race hate, it’s the MOTHERS choices! That sounds like a culture problem not a race problem.
However, it’s their personal choice and their culture, I’m sure not going to push for laws to protect one specific race from themselves.
what if a pregnant woman is attacked and beaten. She lives but her unborn baby dies...then what? murder?
So you’re saying you are OK with an abortion as long as it’s early enough, right? Because that’s what the “morning after” pill does.
Seems to me…
It’s horribly convenient to label abortion “genocide“ because it disproportionately “affects” African-American women… But on the other hand… There is incontrovertible evidence that women who have children at a relatively early age and as single mothers are overwhelmingly likely to end up living below the poverty line. So essentially, we are saying that it’s wrong to deprive these children of life, but it’s OK to sentence them to a life of poverty. So (JMO) George Carlin had a point. It’s terribly convenient to write him off as “just a comedian“ when he is using his profession as an Artist to make a point that cuts straight to the bone. But he was not wrong.
Again, one man’s opinion… Getting an abortion (or NOT getting an abortion) has got to be about the absolutely most difficult and horrifying decision that a person would ever have to make, perhaps short of being a high-ranking military officer sending troops into a no-win scenario or someone who literally has his thumb on the big red button that could trigger the end of the world.
Now… A couple of guys have posted about women who were raped and who chose to carry to term. That was their choice, as it should be. I am certain that the children who were born as a result of those decisions are eternally grateful. But that was the decision made by a woman who had the Right to choose what was right FOR HER. Eliminating an abortion as an option for a woman who has been raped is no more humane than forcing her to have one.
Let’s not forget that getting pregnant is the most dangerous thing that most women ever do. Carrying and delivering a child has undeniable, permanent consequences for a woman’s body. Basically nothing is ever the same, and forcing a woman to go through that after she has already been raped is just another violation of the sanctity of her body. To argue that the psychological impact of that takes a back-seat to ANYTHING is to deny the humanity of the innocent victim of an act of violence.
The trouble is… If you leave a loophole for rape, then you would have to be a complete idiot to not foresee a tremendous spike in reports of rape, if that is the only non-medical justification for receiving abortion services. And if a woman has been impregnated as a result of a rape, then it naturally follows that the police should rightly be granted access to genetic reporting on the cells of the aborted fetus. In which case the “rapist” could be identified on the basis of DNA. In which case any man who had impregnated a woman (who then elected to use rape as justification for getting an abortion) could then be prosecuted and sent prison for rape when the act was in fact entirely consensual. Whether he knew she was seeking an an abortion or not. Because at that point the woman would have to choose to recant the story that she had been raped (and face prosecution for having secured abortion services under false pretenses) or watch an innocent man go to prison.
If you are the father of a young man (or you yourself are a young man) and that does not scare the ever-loving shit out of you, I don’t know what it’s going to take to get through to you.
When I was in high school… about 40 years ago… in our minds, at the time, abortion was basically perceived as a get out of jail free card for an “oops“ kind of a pregnancy which could completely derail a young person‘s life. Not surprisingly, seeing the ultrasounds of my own children when they were no larger than my thumb really changed my perspective on that.
I know one couple who learned that they had conceived and anencephalic fetus, and they chose to carry to term. That “baby“ died very quickly, as everyone knew that it would, and the parents saw fit to allow their virtual “stillborn” to become an organ donor, which spared the lives of several other children and certainly had an enormous impact on the quality of life for a number of others.
I know another couple who have a daughter who is affected by a condition which typically leads to an infant which never progresses beyond infancy and which becomes susceptible to seizures of an ever increasing frequency and magnitude until the child dies at about the age of five. Children like that are incredibly expensive for the parents to support, not uncommonly leading the parents into bankruptcy, and the children never enjoy anything resembling a decent quality of life, but are constantly enduring pain and suffering. In this particular case, the afflicted child was their first-born. A second child with the same condition would almost certainly have ruined them, both financially and as a couple.
Where I cannot help but to come down on this sort of thing is that no one other than the individual(s) in question has any concept of the totality of the circumstances which the mother and the prospective child are likely to face. Therefore, no one else is in a position to dictate what is the best option available.
This country was founded on the principle that the public should not be ruled according to the religious convictions of the government.
It’s Complicated.
JMO, pray as thou wilt…. But recognize the limitations of your knowledge, and leave the Omniscience to God. That position is filled. If there IS a God who frowns on abortion, then know that the aborted are in His hands and will never know fear nor want, and leave it to Him to sort the details of the women who choose abortion as the least awful alternative. It is not up to us to know the right thing for someone else.
That’s one thing I will never understand. “Pro-Life” folks would like everyone to perceive “pro-choice” thinkers as “pro-abortion”. Which is CRAP. No decent human being WANTS for ANYONE to feel the need for an abortion, but we DO live in an imperfect world.
Sorry to end on a Random note, but bottom line is, not everything can (or should) be under govt control, and this is one of those things which should NOT be.
Because they *can*. This has been the 'social' GOP's plan for decades. Install cocial-conservative judges at all levels. Mitch McConnell end-gamed it when he rejected Obama's nominee for SCOTUS, then maneuvered Trump into nominating three anti-abortion Justices. After that it was just a matter of waiting for a case to make its way up the ladder. And here we are.
(And Trump calls McConnell a 'loser'? Naive pawn was over his head from Day 1.)
We can keep moving the goal post if you want, I’ll keep playing.
In a just world, that slimy POS who would do that should be hung for the world to see! If it’s ok for her to shoot him in self defense, it should be ok for her to shoot him next week! What he did hasn’t changed so why should his punishment?
Ya see, I’m not all emotional and soft on criminals, doing so is why we have the problems we do today.
So, again to me the baby/pregnant part shouldn’t matter. He should be tried for what he was attempting to do. If he was beating on a woman I’m gonna assume he wanted to kill her, just because he failed shouldn’t change his punishment. So yea, let’s try him for murder, but not for the unborn baby, or do so also. I really don’t care, what I care about is taking low life’s out the gene pool. THAT should be our goals and concentrations more so than abortion rights. We have bigger problems in this world.
We can keep moving the goal post if you want, I’ll keep playing.
In a just world, that slimy POS who would do that should be hung for the world to see! If it’s ok for her to shoot him in self defense, it should be ok for her to shoot him next week! What he did hasn’t changed so why should his punishment?
Ya see, I’m not all emotional and soft on criminals, doing so is why we have the problems we do today.
So, again to me the baby/pregnant part shouldn’t matter. He should be tried for what he was attempting to do. If he was beating on a woman I’m gonna assume he wanted to kill her, just because he failed shouldn’t change his punishment. So yea, let’s try him for murder, but not for the unborn baby, or do so also. I really don’t care, what I care about is taking low life’s out the gene pool. THAT should be our goals and concentrations more so than abortion rights. We have bigger problems in this world.
We can keep moving the goal post if you want, I’ll keep playing.
In a just world, that slimy POS who would do that should be hung for the world to see! If it’s ok for her to shoot him in self defense, it should be ok for her to shoot him next week! What he did hasn’t changed so why should his punishment?
Ya see, I’m not all emotional and soft on criminals, doing so is why we have the problems we do today.
So, again to me the baby/pregnant part shouldn’t matter. He should be tried for what he was attempting to do. If he was beating on a woman I’m gonna assume he wanted to kill her, just because he failed shouldn’t change his punishment. So yea, let’s try him for murder, but not for the unborn baby, or do so also. I really don’t care, what I care about is taking low life’s out the gene pool. THAT should be our goals and concentrations more so than abortion rights. We have bigger problems in this world.
What a criminal should get charged should not coincide with what/how a woman can do with her body within limits.
A woman choosing an early term abortion shouldn’t be compared to a what a criminal will be charged
if it was "her body," wouldn't it have her dna? what other organ or clump of cells in "her body" has completely different dna?
What are you even getting at.
Are you one of the supporters of mass undocumented immigration while also living in a nice suburb or gated community being hidden from it?
If you are so anti abortion are you adopting a bunch of babies? Put your money where your mouth is
Easy to tell people how they should live when it don’t directly affect you.
My taxes pay for many abandoned children and children in poverty. I don’t wish to pay for more.
Make all parents liable to support their children and I’ll get on board. The cart don’t go before the horse.
ROFL... do you not see the contradiction and irony in that statement?
You tell me not to make black and white statements and then literally make a black and white statement about they very thing I had made a statement on... the real irony is that my statement wasn't black and white whereas yours was.
lol
a baby is either a separate human being or it isn't. If it has it's own dna, it's not part of a womans body. i never told you how to live. i never even said whether i am for or against all abortions. im just saying that if you are ok with abortion, at least be honest about the fact that you are ok with killing another human being. i just don't happen to think the federal government has any business in it one way or another. that is up to the states. thats what our constitution says. i do believe if a person chooses to have an abortion, legal or not, they will ultimately answer for it. that is my religious belief, and it may not be yours or anyone elses. that is a completely different matter. and no, i am 100% against all illegal immigration.
I bet when we helped in the Great Depression people weren’t buying prime meals like boiled seafood with their food stamps and driving away in new vehicles.
And no I’m not saying kill babies for my pocket. I’m saying they both track together, you wanna get more strict on abortions, start by being more strict on people being responsible for their actions!
How far you wanna take that since everything has to be played in literation.
Now women are just incubators?
as much as youd like to put words in other peoples mouths, its not going to work. let me make it very simple. the constitution says it's up to the states to decide. if the states (people) decide that it is legal, it is legal. when it comes to the law, individual religious beliefs are irrelevant. in the end, i believe we will all have to answer for the things weve done. at that point, what man said was legal will be irrelevant. i also believe that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven. mine arent any better or worse than anyone elses.
Did I once mention states or federal?
What about a very young girl who has not been taught about birth control, or even sex in general? Teenage boys are predatory as **** and just as ignorant of, and oblivious to 'consequences'.
so would we kill the mother that decided to kill her child, the doctor that actually killed the child, or both?
How many embryos were to become the discovers of the cure for cancer? Only God knows.
I shot a cow elk one winter, and when we dressed her, discovered she had an early developing fetus in her. I felt awful. I immediately thought about the potential impact of that one being a herd or satellite bull! How many could he have sired along the way? I no longer hunt late season cow or antlerless for that reason. How is it not instilled in everyone?
if not, other than size what does a child contain that an embryo doesnt...and when exactly does one become the other?
Should we come up with a way to monitor when ppl have unprotected sex to then start restricting them because they carrying?
See, these things can spiral into ridiculousness.
And one thing for sure, most people commenting are guaranteed to never have to make that decision, unless they believe men can get pregnant too.
Start your own bow hunting site. Do you complain because McDonalds sells thing you aren’t interested in?
it really only spirals into ridiculousness when people try to nuance their way around the fact that when an egg is fertilized it is a human being. at that point it is only a matter of stage of development. thats not to say that laws cant and wont be made by that make terminating that human being legal, but in our system, that's up to the people of each state to decide. the us constitution provides for that. that is completely separate and apart from the belief that we will have to answer for those decisions some day...the us constitution provides for that too.
Bidens silence is deafening and pathetic .
That’s hardly a “fact.” A woman isn’t even pregnant at this point, yet you’re saying a fertilized egg is a human being? The probability that a fertilized egg actually makes it to term is less that 50%. Many birth control products work after an egg is fertilized by preventing it from implanting in the uterus. Guessing you have a problem with anyone on the pill, Plan B, or IUDs then Ricky?
not necessarily...the pill is designed to prevent ovulation so there is no egg to fertilize...but it doesn't always work that way. plan b is an oral contraceptive and designed to prevent fertilization and is different than the abortion pill...ru486w...which terminates an actual pregnancy. many people think are the same. not even all iuds work the same. some are designed to prevent fertilization and some are designed to prevent implantation.
but you're right...that's why I said what I did in my last post.
Hormones in birth control pills prevent pregnancy by:
1. Stopping or reducing ovulation (the release of an egg from an ovary).
2. Thickening cervical mucus to keep sperm from entering the uterus.
3. Thinning the lining of the uterus so that a fertilized egg is less likely to attach.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/drugs/3977-birth-control-the-pill
plan b is an oral contraceptive and designed to prevent fertilization and is different than the abortion pill.
When taken correctly (within 72 hours of a contraceptive accident or unprotected sex), Plan B® works by:
Temporarily stopping the release of an egg from the ovary (ovulation)
Preventing fertilization
Preventing a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus by changing the uterine lining
https://planb.ca/en/how-plan-b-works/
not even all iuds work the same. some are designed to prevent fertilization and some are designed to prevent implantation.
I agree with you there.
So again, do you feel birth control that may prevent implantation of a fertilized egg is equivalent to abortion?
so again, that is why I said what i did in my earlier post.
"it really only spirals into ridiculousness when people try to nuance their way around the fact that when an egg is fertilized it is a human being. at that point it is only a matter of stage of development. thats not to say that laws cant and wont be made by that make terminating that human being legal, but in our system, that's up to the people of each state to decide. the us constitution provides for that. that is completely separate and apart from the belief that we will have to answer for those decisions some day...the us constitution provides for that too."
my personal belief is that anything that is intended to remove an egg that has been fertilized would be an abortion. that is completely irrelevant to who makes law and how the laws are to be made in a representative democracy...other than to say that I have one vote in the process. beyond that, my religious belief is that we will all ultimately answer for every decision that we have made, and that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven...ymmv
I am for stopping government interference in reproduction, medical decisions, gun ownership, drug use, etc.....
If a birthing person kills it's baby it's their cross to bear.
Especially with contraceptives and other things available today.
BLUF democrats are just securing their base for midterms.
I’m 100% with you, gflight. I’d say that I do think Roe was sound as abortion was not illegal prior to quickening when the Founder’s drafted the Constitution, and even after quickening it was treated essentially as a misdemeanor, so I do think there is historical context for the right to an abortion prior to some cutoff related to gestational age. Putting the constitutionality aside, I very much agree with the sentiment around stopping government interference. Overturning Roe revokes the reproductive rights you’re supportive of and allows for a whole host of additional government interference. While I support the Federal government staying out of our business for the most part, I support State governments doing the same.
Then lets say that unborn children identify as free ranging wolves, and the HSUS will spend millions protecting them. Win-win for everyone. :)
Quite disturbing seeing how many people truly fall for the ridiculous crap.
Mankind will be the cause of mankind’s demise, we are lost
Fyi birds take care of themselves not via gods
Ie... early bird gets the worm. Not delusional bird who prays gets worms magically from heaven
Ingredients and preservatives in it are used for things like killing algae in pools.
https://www.breastfeedingplace.com/exploring-ingredients-similac-infant-formula/
Hey Soccer. . . . a person who hides behind a fake registration and adds nothing to a discussion besides childish mocking is worthless. You should just leave here.
The fake registrations used to annoy me; however, I now see a different side to. When people who disagree with you and Google to find any derogatory information they can, and then post it as happened to a person who had a 52 year old criminal violation posted, I give it a pass today.
That is juicy on so many levels…. ;)
Religion : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
From who, the GOVERNMENT?? LMAO!!! You CANNOT be that ****ing stupid!!!
I know man should be good stewards of the environment.
Temperature has been flat since the 90s.
Climate change is a money making enterprise.
The sun's life cycle, earth's orbit, and wobble contribute to weather and cycles.
I tolerate those in the climate religion because they have some good intentions.
However it's mostly junk science based on grants.
Moving a weather station from pasture to asphalt does not mean the planet is warming.
Bowfreak's Link
Trump still living rent free in the liberal mind.....
Anyone that supports the fraudulent Democratic Party, has got to be a fraud themselves. No scruples, no integrity, and definitely no respect for America and those that built her.
Terry
As far as maxine waters goes, what in the hell makes any of those idiot's think people will continue to just fall in line with whatever whim they want...
I don’t remember pro life riots in the 1970s when Roe Vs Wade was enacted.
I can’t imagine a more barbaric and deviant practice. I pray that anyone that has been involved with this abhorrent act in anyway has asked for forgiveness.
No, that’s not at all what I’m saying. I’m asking you what qualifies as “acceptable” contraception. There are lots of contraceptive devices on the market, so I’m asking which ones in your view are acceptable.
We all knew that.
We've killed more innocent lives than Hitler and Stalin combined since 1973, if that don't concern you where we are as a nation nothing will.
Beyond the morning after pill, IUDs and even the pill don’t necessarily prevent fertilization, but may prevent implantation. Wonder if these fall into Lawdog’s arbitrarily acceptable category or not as well?
BEG - acceptable clearly means preventable, aka, stopping fertilization from even happening. It's really not that difficult to understand...
As mentioned above, that’s not how all contraceptives work. It’s really not that difficult to understand.
From news article:
“Clothing company Patagonia pledged to bail out employees who are arrested while protesting the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.”
“A growing number of major corporations, including Alaska Airlines, Dick's Sporting Goods, JPMorgan, Lyft and Apple have pledged to cover travel expenses for employees seeking out-of-state abortions. “
The people in this country would cry from the galley to put to death anyone who commits true harm to a child. Yet, argue over literally killing one while in the womb.
That’s the definition of hypocrisy, arrogance, and plain evil. That’s it.
It’s as simple as telling it like it is. We had laws that allowed the murder of babies, by their own mothers, as lawful. How is it that any one could defend that? How? It isn’t debatable. It’s murder.
Don’t want a child? Stay off your back and keep your legs closed. It’s a simple concept. But, murdering one is just that. Murder.
It most definitely is how they work. The morning after pill is for people who DON'T intend on keeping fertilization from happening in the first place and is the exception. Birth control pills and any other device's intended use is to keep fertilization from happening. Do we need to post up some cartoons for you to understand how it all works? Sometimes you ask some of the most off the wall questions that are normally common sense for most. Son, you are naïve...
As no birth control is 100% effective in stopping fertilization, they also work to thin the uterine wall to keep any potentially fertilized eggs from implanting, thus having an impact after fertilization. I’d post up a cartoon for you, but here’s a WebMD link instead.
“You become pregnant when an egg released from your ovary (the organ that holds eggs) is fertilized by sperm. The fertilized egg attaches to the inside of your womb (uterus), where it develops into a baby. Hormones in your body control the release of the egg from the ovary -- called ovulation -- and prepare your body to accept the fertilized egg.
Hormonal contraceptives (the pill, the patch, and the vaginal ring) all contain a small amount of human-made estrogen and progestin hormones. These hormones inhibit your body's natural hormones to prevent pregnancy in a few ways. The hormonal contraceptive usually stops the body from ovulating. They also change the cervical mucus to make it difficult for the sperm to go through the cervix and find an egg. They can also prevent pregnancy by changing the lining of the womb so it's unlikely the fertilized egg will be implanted.”
https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills
And it’s very sad you’re convinced that people are asking for elective abortions at 9 months. Nobody is asking for this. When a baby is aborted in a late stage abortion, it is out of a deemed medical necessity.
Lay & collect taxes. Pay debts & borrow money. Regulate commerce. Coin money. Establish post offices. Protect patents & copyrights. Establish lower courts. Declare war. Raise and support an Army & Navy.
Now unless abortion is a form of commerce it does not fit under the realm of enumerated powers for the Federal Govt. This along with all other rights are reserved for the states. ie. marriage, education, etc. Roe was an overreach as is the ruling on same sex marriage, and others. That is Constitutional not emotional.
But it's not THEIR bodies that are being ground into chum, it's their BABIES bodies!! If it WAS "their" bodies, then they'd be the dead ones!
But you can force the same "choicers" to take a vaccine and wear a mask. Got it.
Woods Walker's Link
bigeasygator's Link
Abortions occurring at or after 21 weeks gestational age are rare. They are often difficult to obtain, as they are typically costly, time-intensive and only performed by a small subset of abortion providers. Yet these abortions receive a disproportionate amount of attention in the news, policy and the law, and discussions on this topic are often fraught with misinformation; for example, intense public discussions have been sparked after several policymakers have theorized about abortions occurring “moments before birth” or even “after birth.” In reality, these scenarios do not occur, nor are they legal, in the U.S.
…
While very limited data exists on this issue, a study from 1992 estimated 0.02% of all abortions occurred after 26 weeks gestation (320 to 600 cases per year). This may overestimate current day numbers, given the abortion rate is currently at a historic low, and restrictions on abortions later in pregnancy have increased.
Most large companies. And Govt agencies would love for you to not have, or terminate a pregnancy. Babies and babies healthcare is expensive. Woman need paid time off, it’s nothing but financial.
But simpleton women are being used and don’t know it.
Thanks Hackbow. I know you have a fear of data and statistics and facts just like a bunch of others on these threads, but y’all should really try them sometime.
The only place that argument fits is in a situation like mandatory vaccines. You can’t apply that to abortion. It’s not your body. That’s like me driving a vehicle, and saying “my body, my choice!” while driving the passenger side of my vehicle into a dump truck, killing only my passenger and somehow justifying it because of me having sovereignty over my own body.
Anyone else find the irony in so many libs screaming my body my choice only months after pushing for mandatory vaccines?
Not everything is black and white. And life isn’t all rainbows and sunshine.
Foster care sucks, and the truth is there’s hundreds of thousands of kids sitting in foster care or homes.
Mother health reasons are another concern.
Then you can even add in the fact of any implications with the baby that may pop up. Now, before you all chastise me, I bet each and one of you have had conversations with friends stating something along the lines of
“before you let me live as a vegetable please let me die”,
yet nobody wants to think about things like that being reasons some may want to abort. What kind of life is it for the parent OR the child to live a life of suffering?
Where the racism trigger?
In 2019, the abortion rate for Black women was 23.8 per 1,000 women. For Hispanic women, it was 11.7 per 1,000. And for White women, it was 6.6 per 1,000.
Yet I don’t remember mentioning races
I also see tiptoeing around the vegetable reference
Pretty much the same thing with government sanctioned murder.
(Excuse me if I missed the pro choicers mention race)
Tip toe tip toe
BSBD - so you're saying the statement below is incorrect?
"It’s literally illegal in every State after the 24th week at the latest, the only exception being a medical justification (mother’s health, baby is not viable, etc)." ~ BEG
With that said, intact dilation and extraction procedures account for .2% of all abortions, the majority undoubtedly out of a medical necessity (miscarriage, risk to the mother, fetal viability, etc). So painting the picture that this happens all the time because someone just changes their mind is a fallacy, as is the fallacy that everyone who supports abortion supports this. 60% of the country supports the right to abortion, with limitations. I have no problem moving that limitation to something like 12-15 weeks (or even earlier), with exceptions for the health of the mother.
And before that point??
You get the same thing from the right. It's all a matter of perspective.
Seeing as there is no scientific consensus at all around when a human life begins, it's facts, science, and opinion.
Then perhaps we should err on the side of caution. After all the anti-death penalty adovcates use the same argument. If one innocent person........ In the case of abortion they ALL are innocent.
Left: I should be able to kill my baby, but not in the electric chair
Right: My body my choice, no vaccines, don't tell me what I have to put in my body
Left: My body my choice, don't tell me what I can't take out of my body.
I could go on for pages hypocrites all.
The debate is more about when you become a person.
There are some flaws in your logic...
But a baby can’t survive the early stages of development without the mothers life support.
Just playing devils advocate.
If we could come together to work on reducing the former until the right time, it would be good for everyone.
Were any of them allowed any choice?
Again, all depends on your definition of "audible" and "heartbeat." Semantics, but that's what this is all about. Plenty of scientists will argue that what you have at 3 weeks (and even much later in fact) is neither audible nor is it a heartbeat - it is a group of cells that will eventually become the heart emitting an electrical signal that could never be heard audibly by human beings.
Furthermore, a heartbeat is a is a two-part (diastole and systole) pumping action that takes about a second involving the chambers and valves of the heart. Literally none of these things exist at three weeks.
So, scientists are detecting something but it certainly isn’t audible, nor is it a heartbeat from a medical perspective.
Left: My body my choice, don't tell me what I can't take out of my body."
in the case of a vaccine, the only body involved is yours. every cell in your body has the same dna.
in the case of an abortion it is a separate body. different dna...different body.
And they have zero evidence confirming it. It is what they all believe to be true based on observation of the cognitive world we live in. Until a "fetus" is interviewed at 23 weeks to confirm, nobody will ever know.
I am a baby killer.
I stopped mid-step on my way into my office in Manhattan, and that thought scrolled through my brain yet again: “I am a baby killer.” It was an April day this year, nine weeks after I ended my child’s life.
I decided to keep walking.
That is a choice I have to make every day: Give up or keep moving. I have been choosing the latter, over and over again.
I consider myself “pro-life.” But that phrase is heavy with multiple meanings. Like “pro-choice.” I identify with both of those terms. I am a walking contradiction. It all began in January. My husband and I went to our 20-week anatomy scan. We watched in amazement and excitement as the tech showed us all the precious growing parts of our baby girl: her spine, left hand, right ankle, 10 fingers, 10 toes, lips, tiny little tush. After the appointment, I downloaded all of these images to my phone, where they are still stored. “She looks perfect,” the tech said. My heart swelled with pride when she added: “Your baby is being nice. She isn’t moving too much.”
Not until the end of the appointment did we get our first hint that all was not well. “I see something,” the tech said. “I’m not sure what it is. Come back tomorrow.”
What followed was a few weeks of agony: an amniocentesis, a fetal M.R.I., multiple ultrasounds. After much waiting, we learned the diagnosis: severe brain abnormalities. There was a small empty space where brain matter should have developed in our child’s frontal lobe. She also had agenesis of the corpus callosum, which meant that the middle structure joining left and right hemispheres hadn’t grown properly. And there was a third abnormality, a “rough” area of gray matter.
We knew the diagnosis but we didn’t know what it would mean for our daughter’s daily life. It was explained to us that she would face seizures. Hourly, daily, weekly or monthly? No one could say. She would face developmental delays. Could she breathe? Yes. Could she feed herself, crawl, walk, talk? No one could say. She would face cognitive impairment. Would she know what was happening to her? Would she know us as her parents? No one could say.
What was certain was pain, confusion, frustration, isolation. Precisely how much? Exactly how severe? Only time would tell.
If you identify as “pro-life,” what does that phrase mean to you? I know that in advocacy circles, it means, essentially, “anti-abortion.” But what does life mean to you — the life that you are “for”? Does it mean breathing on your own? Does it mean having a heartbeat? What are the markers of a life of quality, of purpose, of meaning? If your brain was not functioning following a traumatic car accident, would you want your body artificially sustained indefinitely? What is the threshold of experience for you to want to continue living? I’m asking honestly. People’s answers differ. If it’s hard to imagine answering these questions for yourself, can you imagine being asked to answer them for someone else?
My husband and I chose to end our child’s life. Many imagine this as an impossible decision to make, one that would take hours of deliberation. I will be honest with you. You may not want to hear this, but the decision was obvious to us. Our child would not be given a life of pain and suffering. Instead, we would take her pain on as our own.
I regret that we had to make the choice. I regret that she was so sick, so broken. But I do not regret the decision we made. Within 15 minutes of the diagnosis, we knew what we had to do: We would become baby killers.
Am I punishing myself by using that term? I don’t think so. I want people to know: I ended my child’s life. At 23 weeks and six days into my pregnancy, I had a “late term” abortion. When people ask, “How could you?” I reply that allowing her to live would have been a fate worse than death. Her diagnosis was not fatal, not incompatible with the bare mechanics of a living body. But it was incompatible with a fulfilling life. And that makes all the difference to me. That’s why I call myself “pro-life.”
The night before our abortion (a procedure that takes three days to complete), President Trump delivered the annual State of the Union address. I did not watch, but later I saw his comments about late-term abortion make the rounds on social media. Who are these monstrous women and doctors that, in his lurid language, “rip” babies “from the mother’s womb moments before birth”?
My child was lovingly cared for until her last heartbeat. She was gently laid to rest after her footprints were stamped in black ink on a rectangle of paper. Those same footprints hang on my bedroom wall along with a locket containing her ashes. Is this not the picture of maternal feticide you had in mind? I am not a dark shadowy imaginary figure. I am a grieving mother.
President Trump lamented the “living, feeling, beautiful babies who will never get the chance to share their love and their dreams with the world.” I, too, lament their unlived potential. Through a fluke of nature, my beautiful baby was given a broken brain. A brain that would have limited every moment of her life. If she had made it to full term, what love and dreams would she have shared with the world?
Do you know what I find more chilling than the specter of a ghoulish doctor “ripping” babies out of their mothers’ wombs? The idea that my husband and I should have been given the diagnosis, told of the dire outcomes — and then sent home to hope for a natural miscarriage. Is it any less barbaric to be told that your child will suffer and then be deprived of any ability to protect her?
October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month. Most of the related initiatives are designed to help those who have suffered “miscarriage, stillbirth and newborn death.” Where do I fit in? If my body had recognized that my baby was sick and miscarried naturally, I know that I would be offered immediate, unqualified compassion. But because I was faced with a choice, I am made to feel unworthy of support.
I mourn my daughter’s absence every day. I whisper her name in the morning when I wake up. I breathe it out before I go to sleep. She is present in my every thought and action.
I pray you never have to face a decision like the one I faced. You might swear up and down that you could never make the choice I did, but you never know for sure until the time comes. I know I made the best choice for my child. I do not regret it, and I will not hide it.
Nice to see a modicum of compassion and a recognition that this is a choice that is never easy for people that make it at such an advanced stage of pregnancy.
Cancel culture?? Nah. But honesty and integrity are a thing where I come from, player.
I wouldn’t say it’s drivel. It’s someone’s reality. It does certainly represent a minority of abortions, as you say - late term abortions are certainly very, very rare.
In terms of tens of millions of healthy babies that weren’t ultimately born, that’s you projecting your values on things. You could easily say something similar about the births that have been prevented by condoms.
not really...big difference between prevented and exterminated.
They are all biologically unique. The point is if your threshold is "we're preventing healthy babies from being born," you can draw that line at any point in the reproductive cycle. And I'll argue all day long that a fertilized egg is a lot closer from a biological perspective to a sperm cell than it is to a fetus.
And just to clarify an earlier point you made, do you believe that if 60+% of the country thought owning slaves (with some limitations) was acceptable, that we should codify it? I must have missed the day about majority rule in our representative republic in civics class.
That's a strawman. The point was that the majority that supports abortion in this country does so with limitations. And any position has the opportunity to be codified in this country. Do I think slavery should? No, and I'm sure slavery doesn't enjoy support from 60% of the people in this country.
not really...big difference between prevented and exterminated.
To many people on both sides of this issue there is no difference. The right to contraception for all was only established a year before the right to an abortion was. And Thomas explicitly said in his concurrence that the Dobbs ruling calls into question that right.
first, i dont know anyone that thinks sperm or egg alone constitutes a living being. second thomas said there is nothing in the constitution that guarantees a right to contraception therefore that should also be left up to the states. third, i know a lot of people that choose not to use birth control but i dont know anyone that thinks it should be illegal for everyone...and im catholic. im sure there are a few out there that think it should be illegal but nowhere near enough to make it illegal in any state through the legislative process.
Well, hate to burst your bubble, but it most certainly is debatable. See above.
A heart beat is a heart beat
We have a process if we want abortion, contraceptives, gay marriage or year-round, no license required hunting in National Parks to be national rights.
Hate to burst your bubble, but it's not debatable. Your fancy word play and "thoughtful" rhetoric may earn you brownie points in your corporate office setting with whatever executive sponsors you have, but in the real world, it's plain nonsense...
Incorrect about what? What a heartbeat is? What is a heartbeat then?
And as far as a heartbeat equating to life, there are plenty of things that are categorized as “life” that have no heart. Whether y’all like it or not, the reality is you’re picking arbitrary milestones to define when concepts (life, being alive) that have no consistent definition begin. Now you may have your own rationale and justification as to why you’re picking those milestones, but you’re dealing with terms that are entirely subjective.
Leftists can't sell the baby as a mass of cells like a pimple or blood clot though if they admit the truth.
And the exact opposite could be said for the other side depending on your perspective - the anti-abortion crowd can’t sell a mass of cells as a human being if they admit the truth. Again, these are all subjective concepts.
I'd argue a heart has nothing to do with what is life. Amoebas aren't life? Trees aren't life? Sperm - which have distinct genetic material, metabolize sugars, grow and mature, move on their own - aren't life? I'd argue that they are all life. Any cellular organism - be it singular or multi-celled - is life, regardless if it has a heart.
How long before these righteous snoops vote themselves the power to inspect your mail to make sure you're not getting 'abortion pills'? How long before they monitor your daughters and nieces every move? Why is she at the drug store? What's she buying? Stone the harlot!
These are not the people I want running the lives of my female relatives.
What's next, when you get old enough that you cannot take care of yourself any longer it's OK for a relative to hack you to pieces and flush you down a sink?
Thank you jaquomo
Tell a woman? Hell, they can't even DEFINE what a woman is!!!!
PS when it comes to rights, 'enumerated' means jack shite. Remember, throwing out Roe-v-Wade also threw out your 'right to privacy'. Whether that was 'enumerated' or not, I firmly believe in it. The government does not, as the 'Patriot Act' made obvious.
That's exactly what we need more of. Freedom doesn't mean people are only free to do the shit you agree with. You don't want people telling you what to do with your life and people don't want you telling them what to do with theirs. If what they're doing doesn't affect you, then stay in your lane.
It's a never ending issue because society will never agree on what the issue even is.
Completely agree, Glunt.
Almost 500 posts and Glunt pretty much says it all right here. Just read that sentence and carry on! Well said!
On your second part above.....eating sea turtle eggs affects every one of us and our potential future enjoyment of the species. It's a bad analogy. Human's are not an endangered species, in fact most would agree we are overpopulated already!
You should rest easy as the structure that allows a person to breathe doesn't develop until about the 24th week of pregnancy.
Nobody is calling abortion and contraception the same thing. The point is abortion and contraception are all designed to stop the reproductive cycle in human beings at different points. Again, it all comes to where you are comfortable drawing the line...pre-fertilization, post-fertilization, post-implantation, gastrulation, later stages of embryogenesis, and lastly into the fetal development stages. I will add that there are plenty of people on here who have claimed that life begins at contraception, before a pregnancy even takes place. Different people view each of these stages differently from a legal, moral, ethical, and biological perspective - and suggesting the answer to any of the questions abortion raises is black and white is a fallacy independent of what lens you view these questions through.
Why is there no expectation of personal responsibility on the front end of the equation from you pro baby murderers?
That's a strawman. The decision to end a pregnancy involves a tremendous amount of personal responsibility. But no, not everyone thinks that a mistake or accident should result in having to continue a pregnancy that was never intended in the first place nor should it mean that person need burden themselves with the life changing consequences that result from having to care for a child that, again, was never intended in the first place.
For all of you that think abortion is ok just think about this for a moment! What if your mother decided you were an inconvenience?
It's easy to stay consistent in your line of reasoning when you view one of the scenarios involves something that isn't a person.
No disagreement there. I'd take it even further and state that is the case even before we have a human life involved.
And who, exactly, gets to name the board members? Because there are extremist who would just shrug and say, 'it's god's will, let her die.' And given the political climate in some places, these wackos might well wrangle control of your board.
Funny, some states regard the death of an unborn in a DUI accident as murder. So either it's a person, or it isn't. 38 states have fetal homicide laws. 29 have laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy. Looks to me like deciding if it's a person comes down to choice and..........convenience.
Curious. My oldest daughter is a nurse in a large NICU. When babies are born at 22, 23, 24 weeks and they basically can't breathe in their own, should we let them die? Are they a person, even though it takes an extrordinary amount of care just for them to breathe, eat, survive. They are for all intents and purposes in an artifcial womb. Completely reliant on others to live.
I guess according to some, we should just let them pass. I mean with over population and all.... it's not like it's a sea turtle or some other "endangered" species.
Again, as I clearly stated above, depending on what lens you want to view things through - legal, moral, ethical, biological, etc - you can arrive at different answers as to what constitutes a person and what it means to be alive. There is no one size fits all answer and it is far from black and white. As you've just pointed out, not every state provides criminal protection for the unborn. So thanks for making my point, HB.
So, are those states just flat out wrong? Are they not following science? Are their collective legislatures simply less intelligent than you?
Nope, it's just a sign that there isn't a singular answer and different people apply a different value system on things. There is no right or wrong when the answer is a matter of opinion.
Most giant conflicts in history involve people on both sides that are convinced their cause is righteous. We can look back on many and see one side was definitely wrong.
So you think life begins before we even have a pregnancy. If you're so concerned about saving lives, I suggest you focus your energy on the millions of "lives" we lose every year when those fertilized eggs don't implant - it's likely far more than what are lost to abortion.
Again, the notion of "life begins at conception" is purely opinion. The reproductive cycle is continuous, and to suggest that an arbitrary point on that spectrum is where a human life truly begins is, again, pure opinion, no matter how passionately you feel about it or what biological milestone that point represents (be it the combining of gametes, the implantation of a blastocyst, the first electrical impulses of the cells that will form a heart, or the point at which a fetus has developed enough to survive outside of the womb).
Personally, I support a right to choose, but I feel uncomfortable with that choice being made after around the 12th week (with exceptions due to medical risk), and would probably put a cutoff even earlier (8th week or so). At that point, we are transitioning from an embryo to a fetus. The fetus at this stage has no fully developed organs, no developed central nervous system, can't think, can't feel, can't see, can't survive outside the womb - that on the spectrum is closer to a gamete/zygote than it is to a newly born baby in my opinion (both in terms of biological function as well as on a timescale). Again, I recognize this is purely opinion that attempts to strike a balance across multiple parameters and aligns with my value system - just like saying "life begins at fertilization" is for others.
