Contributors to this thread:
KMS - Buffs Hitting The Salt
We’ve been busy with cape buffalo the last two weeks…Six bulls shot, five in the salt.
The late rains and ultra green, thick foliage is making it tough but we’re getting it done. All of the buff taken from day 5 on. If you’re looking for walk and stalk adventure and close range encounters, contact me to make that happen. Will keep posting as the buffalo hit the salt.
That last buffalo is huge, carrying his mass deep down the horn.
they all look massive to me!
They all look great. But that 44” is special
Better photo of that was 39” bull. Didn’t like the first one I posted.
That 44 is a tank. Damnnn
He definitely has the hooks. The mass throughout the horns is superb. Really heavy.
He has a massive body as well. Thick neck, huge girth. Great buffalo.
He’s Like this brute I saw in Kruger a few weeks ago
57” Kudu bull hit the salt. Free range, Botswana border.
57” Kudu bull hit the salt. Free range, Botswana border.
No worries Dave. Just keep your broadheads sharp :)
Do you have blinds set up on the salt or stalk in?
Don't kill them all before I get there...
Wkochevar, I think when Ken says “In the salt” or “ hit the salt” he means the skull and hide being put in the salt shed. They store the skulls and hides in salt until the taxidermist picks them up.
48” Sable bull, last morning on departure day! Tremendous bull.
A 48” Sable bull is tremendous. It certainly didn’t look that big when we saw it. I thought 45” initially but once back at the skinning shed, the tape corrected my assumption. I’m so happy for our returning clients from Texas. They both shot buffalo last season and this year, a buff and this sable.
Would a 30-06 180grain nosler partition take care of a Buffalo
Ken, Do you feel it will dry up by the end of June and and leaves fall?
The Nosler Partition was a great bullet in its day and still does very well but IMO the Swift A Frame is superior. A 30/06 can kill a buffalo eventually :) but the .375 H&H Mag is the smallest legal caliber to hunt them in most places. The best all around caliber for buffalo is any of the .416s…yes, it is still very wet here and has rained off and on throughout May. Everything is still very green and thick but it dries out quickly and I think by the end of June it will come right. The wet veldt makes it tough to pattern buffalo tho. Their drinking patterns are erratic.
Wow, a 48” sable is amazing!
Ken, what’s your recommended bullet and velocity range for a 375 Ruger for buff?
If you hand load use Swift A Frames or Barnes TSX with 300 grain bullets pushing 2000fps or better.
If you don’t hand load, the standard ammo offered in Hornady DGX will work. The new Hornady offerings are much better than their old stuff. The standard factory ammo pushes the 300 grain Hornady at 2600+.
ken, thanks for sharing.
those that are rifle kills, what is a typical shot distance?
When are solid/ non expanding bullets recommended?
Some really great animals across the board. Good Buffalo!!
Clients should really only use softs. Solids are for backing up as penetration is key to stopping a charging buffalo which must be hit in the brain or spine to stop. You might turn a charge with a well placed shot but to stop it ultimately, you need to hit the brain or spine. Softs expend more energy into the buffalo and cause more internal damage. Clients really shouldn’t bother with solids unless hunting elephant or rhino. A solid can also pass thru one buffalo and hit another. Just stick with quality softs like the A frame.
Ken what size were the bases on those Buffalo?
Cannot say. Didn’t measure anything but the spread. Here’s an old warrior we dropped yesterday. Client was using a Chapuis double rifle in 450/400. Two shots close range.
Those side by side rifles are so "classy", they just speak Africa............ Wow what a big animal,,,,,,
It’s a sweet rifle. Much lighter than my Merkel .470. Did a number on the buffalo as well. The 450/400 3” and 3 1/4” are two of my favorite calibers in a double.
Just reading those calibers makes my shoulder sore….
Good Lord Ken, those are some old warriors for sure. Thanks for this thread.
30” Nyala bull hit the salt today.
Wow. Very impressive. Don’t see a lot of true 30s. Congrats to the Hunter and good job to the PH
Grounded another today. Client from Quebec. First shot was good but the buffalo wasn’t impressed. Brought in the dogs and they were on him in about 300 yards. Buffalo bayed a bit then ran, bayed and ran, and finally broke out of the thickets where we could hit with one from my .470 Nitro, two from a .500 Nitro, and two from the client’s .375. Buff made it about another 100 yards and fell. He was in some of the thickets stuff you can find. Good dogs for wounded buffalo are life savers.
And people bowhunt these things?
First shot on this buffalo ruptured the aorta. The blood trail was significant but he still ran 300 or so yards, and circled back to our flank, as they usually do, waiting on us. The dogs jumped him and ran him out of the thorns and thickets where it took another five good shots to ultimately drop him. Cape Buffalo are different.
Bou’ That is why you bow hunt them. The unpredictability :>)))
That's why when people bowhunt them a lot die due to lead poisoning. The guys who truly kill one with a bow have done something amazing.
The first picture of this thread is of me. The top 4 hunters were my group of buddies. The 4th pic looks like a success by Moody, but its misleading. They were stalking my friend's wounded buff and saw that one and shot it. Wrong buff. Here is the description of the hunt that the 4 of us booked: " This is a newly acquired reserve on the boundary of the Kruger, others similar to this you may have heard of are the Balule, Kalserie, Mthimkulu, Timbavati, etc. The fence between the 5 million acre park and this reserve will be permanently removed in July 2018 - thus hunting will commence in 2019. This will allow the grossly over grown population (in the park) of buffalo, elephant and other game to have more area to roam - and I assure you they will." What we got was a caged hunt. None of us would have booked this hunt had we known. Lots of other bad things. We are all really pissed. Unethical outfitter.
I think he should proceed with any legitimate complaints Just like any other hunt report
Love to wake up in Africa to a bit of nonsense. I’ve always believed that social media retaliatory posts fall within the realm of bitter teenage girls and men with no sack. I don’t like participating in such childishness, but when silly accusations are made, my hand is forced… Point 1… The venue change occurred due to the closure of the area. As you can see, official hunting there was due to commence in 2019 on a limited basis and fully implemented in 2020, but as I recall, a certain worldwide event occurred in late 2019 and carried over into 2020 when no international travel was allowed. Many hunting/touring operations closed their doors as no income forced them to. The APNR area near Kruger Park discussed was one of those. Infrastructure was in place but in light of absolutely no business, this new area was abandoned. Management cut their losses and pulled out. My company had deposited $23,000 there and that was not recovered. A hard knock but we carried on and never went to our clients with this information. We simply honored their deposits. It was the ethical thing to do. Venues in Africa change from time to time due to many factors, but Covid’s impact on the industry here cannot be overstated…Above is the contract signed by this particular individual, clearly showing the hunting area was to be Limpopo North, not the area originally discussed. Limpopo North is exactly where he hunted.
Point 2…The buffalo pictured that he claims I’m trying to pass off as something it is not was, in fact, shot by me and my team. We had tracked the client Roger’s wounded buffalo for a over five hours and when we got our dogs on the scene, continued with the track which led to the river. As we stopped for a quick rest, a bull jumped from upon the track and charged up the hill towards one of my PHs. It ran past him and I told him to shoot it after which I shot it as well. When we inspected it, we discovered it was not the wounded bull but one that was lying in a thicket directly upon the track of the wounded one. I would have shot this bull 100 out of 100 times as everything indicated it was the wounded bull and leaving an injured buffalo to hurt or kill someone else is something you do your utmost to prevent. I’ve attached a photo of a post I made about it on another thread clearly stating that it was me who shot this bull. No one is trying to hide anything. I paid in full for the buffalo and we carried on.
Point 3…The cage referenced is over 5,700 hectares (14,000 plus acres). The other cages we hunt are similar in size. These areas of Limpopo North are huge, thick, and challenging.
Point 4…Unethical? “We are all really pissed.” Interesting…The other members of the group don’t see it that way. In fact, on 20 June, a rifle hunter killed the buffalo that was previously wounded by Roger. The broadhead was found during skinning and recovered. As ‘unethical’ as I am, I didn’t keep it quiet and pocket his trophy fee (only three of us knew what happened). No, I sent him an email with a photo of the broadhead and told him what had happened and that his wounded bull had been recovered and that he was owed a buffalo from me.
One of the other “really pissed” hunters in the group contacted me about a return to hunt our Zululand area which is free range.
The other member of the group also approached me and asked about a return with his wife next year. We discussed at length and he too, left very happy. In fact, the perpetrator of this bullshit also inquired about a return if I would just let him extort me for a break on his hunt as claimed he had ‘issues’ with his PH. I did offer one as an appeasement but why, if I’m so ‘unethical’ would he and his ‘really pissed off’ friends all want to return?
In business, especially the hunting business, you’ll get a client from time to time that cannot be satisfied for whatever reason. Many times the client’s inability to shoot well results in the blaming of others for the misfortunes of wounding game. Now, I’ve got another buffalo to hunt this afternoon. I hope everyone has a very good day!
Here we go. Moody is like CNN vs Trump. Everything out of context. Except for Roger (who is pissed out fences), we made these comments because we thought Moody may possibly make up for the injustices that he did too us. These are my best buddies. I can’t speak for Roger because I haven’t talked to him recently, but other than him I guarantee that none of us will return. And yes we signed on to Limpopo North because we thought it was the free range venue along Kruger. He will continue to try to discredit me in every way he can. It’s interesting how many PMs I’m getting from guys that agree to his past deceit. Check out the Outfitter Review I wrote.
You look pretty happy in your kill photo.....
If you are continuing to have “issues,” pick up the phone and call me like a man might do. You know what time it is in Africa.
The guys has decades of support and positive references on this site and elsewhere for his current and prior operations. I'd hunt with him any day if Africa was of interest. Any day.
The smiles in the trophy pics above just cry "injustice".
So BullBuster just for context it looks like Ken explained why the area was changed to Limpopo North and that you signed a contract to hunt Limpopo north. Your team continued to hunt and shot buffalo. However, it is obvious your expectations were not met. What were your expectations?
Ken just sent us a contract. He never said there was a change. We had no idea that Limpopo North was not the hunt that was sold to us along Kruger. We only booked the hunt because it was described as free range. When we arrived in Johannesburg, the day before going to camp, we learned that the camp was not near Kruger. So I emailed Ken and said what’s the deal? That was the first time that he told us that he had lost that concession but we were hunting self propagating Buffalo and we would be happy. Again never mention fences. What were you gonna gonna do, turn around and go home? When we got there it was a caged hunt for sure. Never an apology. No compensation. There is no arguing this point. He even sold the meat to a butcher for additional profit. His website had said meat was donated to local communities. This is just tip of the iceberg.
This safari, originating in 2018 (four years ago) was booked thru a booking agent who provided the narrative and description of venue. He booked about a dozen buffalo hunts for us that year at various locations based on where our quota was available. As you can see from the email sent to this individual in 2019, I stated “depending on venue” when describing how far we were from Johannesburg. He never questioned the venue then. We plan the hunts based on where we have available quota. The venue mentioned by the agent, failed to open as previously stated. We simply planned around that, and contracted the hunt for Limpopo North. Contracts were signed without any questions regarding venue location. Yes, meat shot in Limpopo is mine and I sell it outright. It’s then sold thru local butcheries to the local populace. Meat shot in the North West is donated to the local village as they control the hunting on the property. Meat shot in Zululand, the same. It’s kept there. Caged hunt is the most misleading, dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
4-7 hours travel depending on venue? Excuse my naivety. I thought venue might have referred to property where we’re going to stay. 1.5 hours north of Kruger vs 1.5 hours south is a 3 hour difference. I had complete trust so I never questioned anything.
You got a great bull. Nice job.
You got a great bull. Nice job.
I try to avoid your threads Ken to avoid "the Africa itch". Keep telling myself I'm too old for that shit. Lol
Bullbuster, I'm not sure what you mean by a "caged hunt ". Was Mr Moodys description of the situation inaccurate? I've never hunted Africa, probably never will. I have hunted Stateside with Ken and never known him to mis-state, understate, overstate, prevaricate, sugar-coat or otherwise do more or less than state the situation bluntly as he sees it.
I can’t get over 14,000 acres being a cage. I hunted a 16,000 acre cage once with RK, never saw the fence except entering and leaving. Fouteen thousand acres aint the King Ranch, but it is still a big chunk of real eastate.
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but if I was gonna hunt buff, Ken is the guy I’d go with.
Ken, It's great to see continued success, especially with the bow hunts. Cape Bufallo are not easy to get with a bow and you have provided solid opportunities for many a bowhunter.
I keep telling you maybe next year but I've just about talked myself into it. I'll be in touch when you get back to the states. Goiod luck on the rest of the season.
During the first 3 days of my hunt I was told 15k ac but that’s a joke. The total property may be that but it’s divided into fenced square sections that are cut up by parallel sandy roads forming blocks . These sections connect to each other by gates that are left open so game can theoretically cross. We were driving and turning along fences constantly and trying to isolate the herd within the blocks. Some of the ranches after that were larger but not all. The 5th afternoon we were driving by a waterhole and the bull I eventually shot stepped out in front of us on the road. We backed out then started a slow stalk. My bull cut to the right (no wind) and other tracks to the left. Trackers wanted to go right but my PH said no and we went to to left looking for other bull tracks. Then he called it off as usual after only 200 yds. I said let’s go after the big bull but PH said no I don’t want to push him. We can try to drive around and see if he comes out. WTF! Next mid day they put me on that same water hole with an African tracker. The PH was so addicted to cigarettes he couldn’t sit at a water hole with me. He asked me if I’d shoot a buff from water blind and I said I guess I would on day 6 because things weren’t going well but that was not my preference. At 13:00 I shot my bull. Turns out the PH was watching me on live video from the lodge. I later found out he knew that bull was coming into that water hole every day so that’s why he wouldn’t pursue it the day before. That my friends is a caged hunt.
The ‘Cage’ is 14,100 acres
Within the ‘cage’ is an agricultural area of 1100 acres where citrus and cattle are farmed. Outside of the ag area is 13,000 acres of wild bush and hunting. This is where we hunt. The camp is within the ag area so that it can be monitored against theft. To access the bush you will obviously go thru gates and around the fenced in agriculture which is fenced to keep the game out of it.
Sounds like your first time to Africa?
Lack of due diligence on your part is not fault of others….
You still killed the buff as well. Could have switched to a plains game hunt I imagine.
Or if you were truly an idealist could have left and gone home and tried to recoup damages… but you did sign the contract.
We do not hunt property, we hunt the animals upon it. Along with my PHs, we scouted the area to find where the buffalo were moving for this particular hunt. It was the first hunt of the season and we were going in cold. For two days we hit every water source in the area and found that nearly all the buffalo activity was concentrated in the north and east. This is where we concentrated our efforts for three or four days with this group so yes, we weren’t there to conduct game drives but kill buffalo. They were not exposed to the rest of the property for that reason.
In SA we generally have a decent road network wherever we hunt and we use it because we’re not stupid. When hunting buffalo, we try and locate where they are drinking and then find an acceptable track to follow. You have to then determine how old the track is. If it’s last nights track you follow it until it hits a two track, dirt road. You then normally drive around the ‘block’ the buffalo entered and see if you can locate tracks indicating where they may have moved thru and into another block. You do this until you can isolate the block that the buffalo are in. These blocks can be anywhere from 50 to a few hundred acres. Once that’s determined, you get the wind and track into the block if it’s early enough. If it’s closer to midday, the wind will usually begin to start swirling and the buffalo will be laying down, not the way you want to find them. In that case, you pull out and return to the area in the late afternoon to try and catch them up and feeding. This is how you hunt buffalo using the roads and terrain available to you. In areas without a road network (Zimbabwe for instance), you haven’t any blocks to use so you start straight away on the track and follow it for hours to the buffalo. If there are any roads, you’ll certainly take advantage of them. This is not a novel hunting technique. It’s funny though as we didn’t kill a single buffalo in this ‘cage’ even with numerous encounters and attempts. Guess we need a much smaller cage.
We hunt 8 areas in the northern Limpopo and bagged all the buffalo on this hunt from two of the others available to us. When the next buffalo hunter arrived, we started again in the northeast here on the main property but, after two days of hunting, discovered that they had moved to another part in the property. I sent the client off property where he bagged a tremendous bull while I tried to sort out the herd here. We found them in the western portion of the hunting area, taking residence in terribly thick bush. We also located a single bull track that had wandered into the eastern side.
Honestly this sounds like a class A type problem for the hunter that most people will have a very difficult time empathizing with
You went to Africa with one of the best outfitters out there you killed a cape buffalo and a nice one at that. you did it 100% with a bow with no gun drama follow up that seems to often accompany bowhunts
In the end you may have preferred that some of the details of the story were a bit more traditional or romantic but that’s not necessarily hunting and you did what anyone would do which is take reasonable advantage of the opportunity to be successful given the situation and given the fact that everything you were doing made total sense and was perfectly legitimate.
The things in your mind that stop this from being the world class experience you would have preferred to be able to articulate apparently really weren’t that important. We know this because unless you left out the part about being forced at gunpoint to hunt where and how you were told, and to shoot what you were told to, you were the one that voluntarily agreed to the hunting plan. You said you were six days in and it was your best option so that was the way to do it. Sounds smart to most of us I assume. On day six that waterhole blind vs. spot and stalk must have seemed to you like the way to go since that was the way you went. Again, unless you left out the part about being forced to hunt there and that way.
You were fully aware of what the blind sit entailed, i.e. being in the blind versus sneaking through the tall grass. You certainly realized when you were sitting in that blind that you weren’t stalking animals out on the savannah. Would you have been preferring to sit in a blind that had no activity or did the outfitter do the right thing by putting you in a place where the object of your pursuit actually had a chance of showing up.
I’m sure in the outfitters' mind the fact you were sitting in a hot water hole with some thing known to be visiting it was on the plus side of the ledger for your hunt and not a negative. Should he have put you somewhere where Buffalo hadn’t been seen for weeks?
You were pleased enough with the animal and the conditions to voluntarily kill it so why now turn it in to some type of abomination of hunting etiquette and protocol?
Based on the above that you have shared and Ken shared it seems like everyone did the right thing and the best thing they could do to satisfy the other in the moment. The result seems to be that the goal you left the united states to accomplish, which was taking a great buffalo with your bow and in a way that was acceptable enough for you to execute if and when the opportunity arose, was what happened.
Yep definitely seems like a class A type problem.
My tracker and I sat along the fringe of the block of thicket the buffalo were in at this stage, and discovered they came out onto an open field just at dusk.
We hunted this part of the area with our next client and had one chance at a great bull at 60 yards but the wind gave us up and the herd stampeded and ran. We’ve just now this week taken two bulls off our main property. We don’t do caged hunts.
What I'm reading is "I consistently disagreed with the person assigned to facilitate my hunt. When I finally agreed to follow instructions I was successful. One guy was a smoker and I dislike smokers. There were roads and fences. We used the roads to get to hunting areas. I don't like roads or fences. I never saw Tarzan because he avoids roads and fences. The staff had done due diligence in patterning movements of a trophy bull and placed me in a likely location for a shot. I'd have preferred to have a blundered onto a huge bull by using my own superior instinct for African hunting"
Failure Grizz stik Alaskan?
Failure Grizz stik Alaskan?
I would say this was a Broadhead failure- broken ferrule on that wounded buff-. (Finished with a rifle?)
says Alaskan so it’s a Grizzly stik- they tout Ashby design but I thought the first rule was Broadhead integrity! Is the problem the steel they use? Process?
I would not use those on big animals….
We recommend two broadhead types that have worked repeatedly with us; the old, original German Kinetics and the new Iron Will Buff heads. These are consistent performers. Of the two, the IW is number 1. Penetrates well and is extremely tough. The GK doesn’t appear to be very solid for buffalo but they seem to hold together…the head pictured struck the shoulder area and achieved minimum penetration. Yes, the shearing at the ferrule is concerning. This particular buffalo was tracked for two days but not recovered. It was killed by a rifle hunter about 7 weeks later and we found this head in the buffalo’s stomach.
It’s also worth mentioning that the money is already paid. There is no additional trophy fee for the bull.
An unscrupulous PH would want to leave that paid for bull for the next hunt. And the next. Every mature bull killed is 8 or more years to replace.
Ken - I’m confused. How did the broadhead that hit the shoulder with minimal penetration end up in the stomach?
Broadheads can migrate once inside an animal and this one worked it’s way into the buffalo’s stomach as it wasn’t lodged in any bone.
Are you saying that the broadhead migrated from the shoulder area to inside the stomach? Even if it made it that far, how would it get through the stomach wall? Osmosis? ;-)
Steve. African Magic No other reason. It happened some in India back in the day also with Tigers
Broadheads can work their way into many places within a large animal over time. This is not even the weirdest I’ve seen. A small, two blade, 1” wide broadhead can migrate inside a wounded animal as it moves. This particular wound was 7 weeks old. The shot was near the shoulder/neck area, struck something and the broadhead sheared at the ferrule, the balance of the arrow falling out. It was not impacted in any bone so it was free to ‘swim’ it’s way thru the bull. This is not as uncommon as you think.
How can you be sure it’s the same bull? Is this a caged hunt? Sorry - couldn’t resist.
It could be worse man. You could have shot a huge Buffalo, paid big money, and then never seen the trophy again. At least you’re probably getting your head back.
The last time these shenanigans saw daylight, the whole thread got removed by Pat.
I’m still waiting on my refund, or promised return trip, or whatever. I think I just need to accept that I got hosed.
That can happen. It’s especially prevalent in Africa. I know my Buffalo experience there soured me on the whole continent.
This is the first time I’ve looked at this site in YEARS. I wonder how many of these threads have been taken down in that time? What are the odds that another “Big Buffalo Mystery” could happen?
I’d say pretty good.
When I hunted Buffalo through Ken Moody, we drove within 15 feet of dozens of bull Buffalo eating out of troughs inside a small enclosure. That was AFTER I’d killed my bull.
I flattened that SOB and was VERY pleased with the whole thing, other than the poor organization that led to the trophy being lost to God knows where. That too was kinda acceptable, until they tried to pass off a totally different head as mine, which I believe makes them liars.
Is there a different English word to describe deliberate deception? If you’d prefer, you could use that word instead of liars.
The Africa of old may not have ever been. Certainly not in the past 80 years is certainly not in South Africa today. South Africa eradicated much of the game decades ago as expanded ranch operations then later reintroduced animals for hunting. Herds that are self-sustaining is about as good as you will find in South Africa. Fences are almost a certainty on South African hunts as are used to create a grid to locate tracks then get closer by entering a land grid. Is a well-known method. As is hunting over water in a blind during the dry season.
I am told that if you do not have fences and vigilance in modern South Africa then you will lose things and animals to two-legged intruders. Herds are supplemented inside fences from time to time to add diversity or new variants such as the Golden Wildebeest. Feed may be supplemented. I think of hunting in South Africa much as I do of hunting ranches in Texas.
Not sure of all the disconnect with expectations. If a free-range, no fence opportunity was discussed during the sales cycle but not available at time of contract then communication should have been thorough and prompt, imho, so expectations are in line with what will soon be the reality of the actual hunt. Is too late as hunters arrive in country. A successful hunt does not mean expectations were met as much of the African experience is not the killing. Various curveballs such as the weather or what animals encounter are just part of the adventure though I would not put up with a chain smoker in a vehicle much less a blind.
My experience was great. I knew there would be fences. I knew the “red line buffalo” were probably still being fed supplementally. No problem.
I paid Ken Moody the maximum trophy fee up front.
I shot a huge buffalo.
The landowner demanded more money.
My buffalo got taken by the landowner.
The PH tried to send me a totally different buffalo skull.
I never got any of the animals I took with that PH, including the buffalo, an ostrich, a warthog and an impala.
Ken Moody got his trophy fees. I never got my trophies.
This isn’t me complaining, these are just facts about the experience.
Ken half-heartedly offered me a “free” return trip. He never set dates and assured me that “you’re the only bad experience EVER”
Well, I guess I’m not.
Buffalo carry bovine tuberculosis and foot and mouth disease. There is a "red line" that was established just west of Kruger park in order to contain the wild buffalo that carry it.
The buffalo that have been introduced into areas outside of this line, where virtually all of the hunting properties are in South Africa, must be certified disease free by veterinarians in order to protect the cattle industry.
I guess more time led to the loss of recognition. Or maybe a bi-polar episode?
Ken I just sent you a PM and upon reflection wish I'd posted as an open comment. Please feel free to post it here if you feel it has relevance or merit.
Gotta love email! A great example of why written correspondence is almost always better than a phone call.
Stekewood that's the truth. I've gone to scheduling all my jobs by email or text. Even if I have a phone call with all the details and price explained I still back it up with a "confirming " text or email which I print and put in a file with a job number. Had a guy "stiff" me on a $50 consulting job last month. Sending him a past due invoice with interest charges.
Fuzzy Some people would rather owe it to you than cheat you out of it. Even for $50
So what happened to halibutman's buff?
Haliburtonman, we never remove outfitter reports. I have no clue what you’re talking about. We will sometimes remove threads started on the forums when we feel clients are leveraging them to pressure outfitters for whatever reason. I don’t have any recollection of either occurrence happening but wanted to set the record straight.
You’ll see Bullbusters outfitter report and this thread posted for all to see. If I was trying to stifle information why would I do it for you and not others?
Look, things sometimes go south on hunts. It’s happened to me. Particularly in Africa where contracts and agreements between landowners can go sideways. And it happens in the US too. That’s the chance we all take when we book hunts. Of course you know that.
I don't have a dog in the hunt so to speak, could you get some type of trip insurance to cover situations like this??
I love people. At work we’ve gone to signed contracts for most all jobs because of how people are. And most have to sign hold harmless forms for hooking up appliances dishwashers washer machines etc not supplied but us that they expect us to stand behind. These people are the exact reason why we have to do that in todays day and age.
I agreed to take a replacement hunt after it was offered to me YEARS later. Why not? At least I could try to salvage something, right?
Ken Moody has never seen me in person. I don’t particularly hold a grudge against him. It wasn’t technically his fault, as you see above. That’s true.
He took all the money. I sent it to him. He refunded none of the lost trophy fees, played hard to get, and only offered a MUCH cheaper replacement hunt for free after I lit him up on social media.
No one remembers the “Big Buffalo Mystery” thread where he used my photos to advertise here? I lit him up then too.
Pat removed that thread. He insisted Ken is a stand up guy.
Maybe he is. In my case he should have refunded me the trophy fees I paid for the lost animals due to bad landowner organization. Or he could have offered a timely replacement hunt. 2024 will be 10 full years after I went on safari.
I can post screen shots too. He violated our contract 100%. Was it his fault? Not really. Sure wasn’t what I’d paid for though.
All the buffalo there are tame as cattle. They feed them meal in small lots right next to rhinos. It’s super weird to see. Definitely wasn’t something I was expecting.
The sable I shot with Herman on the same safari was in a 2-300 acre pen. We shot it in less than 10 minutes. Herman told me I wasn’t going to like that hunt. I’d spent about 2 weeks with him by then, and he was right. I shot it anyway since I’d paid for it in full in advance.
Herman and Annette were wonderful hosts for the last 18-20 days of my trip. That guy Steyn Potgeiter needs to be out of business.
Ken claimed that he is no longer operating and that he lost everything. I just did a search on him and he’s still open and operating under the same name. ESP Hunting Safaris. Ken is no longer booking hunts with him after my debacle.
Although I do not appreciate being called derogatory terms, in this case, the client is correct to be unhappy. To answer this I’ll recap… When this safari was taken, my company was very large in terms of clients booked. Too big, to be honest. It was increasingly difficult for me to run and be on site as we had safaris occurring not only in various places in SA, but other countries as well. It was a big operation… To facilitate the hunting, I would subcontract with two or so other outfitters to conduct individual hunts for buffalo which consisted of one client or a client and wife. Our primary focus at the time was plains game so an outlet for single 1x1 buffalo hunts was established… The outfitter I used was referred to me by a Bowsiter who raved about his abilities. in fact, there’s been a few buffalo hunters here on Bowsite, that were extremely happy with their hunts with this PH… When I contacted the PH about the hunt he suggested a venue called Mauricedale where Pete Shepley of PSE had killed a buffalo. The property is 6,600 hectares (over 16,000 acres) with lots of buffalo. It was in the redline area so all parts of any buffalo killed there remained in quarantine on the property for a time, but then would be released once that period was over. The PH sent me the rates and I passed them along to the client. The trophy fee for a buffalo was 10k and that was to be for any buffalo taken as I understood it… The PH had not hunted the property and was going in cold. Normally, when this occurs the landowner provides a tracker to guide the PH on the property so that problems do not arise. This did not happen and the PH entered the areas without that help… The PH and client got onto buffalo and killed a great bull. It was later revealed that the buffalo killed was a breeding bull and was off limits according to management. There is a small 300 acre breeding area in the center of the property for rhino and buffalo breeding. The reserve hunts game under exemption, but also breeds game for sale at auction. Based on what the client has said and the supplemental feeding he witnessed, I believe the PH bungled into this area and shot a breeding bull. Commercial, supplemental feeding like that described can only mean they were in the breeding camp… At this stage the PH should have contacted me and told me there was an issue but he did not. Instead he asked for the trophy fee payment from me which I wired to him and he subsequently paid over to the landowner… Having the horns in quarantine, the landowner demanded an additional 15k on top of the ten already paid, as the correct compensation for the buffalo killed. Again, I was not informed of this at the time. In fact, I had no idea of any problem until I saw a post weeks later by the client mentioning the issue with the horns. I then contacted the client for clarification and discovered the issue… I then contacted the PH and he tried to play it off and said the landowner was trying to extort more money, blah, blah, blah. He said that he was not informed of any buffalo that could not be shot and that he should have been given a tracker from there if there were buffalo not on open quota… Legal action was taken against the PH by the landowner for lack of payment. The case dragged on for years but was finally resolved (I thought) when judgement was awarded to the landowner. Without having the funds to pay the 15k, the court ordered that the assets of the PH be inventoried and a value assessed for them… During all of this time I was in contact with both the landowner and his attorneys. All I wanted was the horns. They told me that when the account was settled, the horns would be released. I even made them an offer to buy the horns outright. They had won their case and didn’t need them any longer but they insisted that the horns were evidence and couldn’t be released until the court enforced its decision… Before the decision was enforced, the landowner went into bankruptcy and could no longer afford to pay his attorneys. No action was ever taken against the PH as I understand it… I pressed the landowner and his attorneys continuously to release the horns but they went dark. The entire property went under auction… This entire, single incident caused me to drop the way I was doing business and to dissolve all associations with any outside hunting providers and run the entire operation myself. We pivoted to specializing in buffalo hunts, reduced the number of clients taken each season so that we can provide personalized service and so I can be there to oversee everything. Bigger does not mean better and growing to a size that was not professionally controllable, was a mistake…I have my own camp, professional hunters, chef, all of it… To rectify what occurred, I offered the client a complete redo on his safari for buffalo and the other species left there at the venue where he first hunted. We will hunt a free range area and I will personally take him along with my top PH. The value of the safari is over 20k and we will show him the hunt he deserves… From the email correspondence previously posted, you can see that he agreed to the do over hunt and I am now just waiting for him to give me dates…. Even with the harsh words from him, I hold no hard feelings. I want to show him the way a buffalo hunt should be, not shooting a bull out of a breeding camp. Additionally, the original horns are likely still with the landowner and I am still trying to recover them. They must eventually show up.
The landowner first tried to sell the property but it is my understanding that it fell to the auction block in the end.
If there is one thing I have learned in business it is that there will be times in life where even though you try and set things up for the best, bad things can happen. It is usually then where the quality of people come out, and how you conduct yourself after this situation that often even wins customers for life, and some of the best reviews.
There are also some situations it seems with customers that no matter what you do you will never be able to make them happy. At that time I've been forced to look at myself and talk to trusted people to ensure that what we've offered is fair and that is the best we can do. You can not promise 100% happiness.
This thread has been very interesting to follow. I have newly gotten into the travel business and so it is interesting to see how some grievances are dealt with. I think it is both rare and commendable to see a business owner lay bare his communication for the world to see. The reason I think Ken is doing this is because though it looks like his clients are unhappy; in this case he has looked at the situation and thought he has done all that he can do and can go to sleep at night knowing he has been just and fair with the situation. The unfortunate reality is that some times crap happens. You can't undo what was done. There are no "redo's" in life. The situation happened and is past. Unfortunately we can only move on and do the best with the future that we can.
I don't know if I would ever hunt Africa, but if I did I would definitely do a lot of research on how hunts are conducted so that my expectations might accurately match reality. I am not hunting in my home country. Having seen what I have seen here I would gladly hunt with Ken.
I'm glad the thread was left alone for all to read and make their own assessment(s) - that is the true value of Bowsite.
All the best to all parties involved.
If the client doesn't want the free return trip I will take it lol.
I just couldn't resist
To be clear, I accepted the return trip.
Also to be clear, it’s going to take place 10 YEARS after the debacle with that PH subcontractor that Ken booked me with.
I don’t want to get into a nuanced argument online. It’s a waste of time, especially when much of the audience is attempting to curry favor with an active sponsor/outfitter.
I travel to hunt WAY too much. I’ve had tons of crazy ridiculous stuff happen to me. That’s part of it. This is just another crazy ass story.
Like I said, it could be worse. When I said that, I was directly addressing the dude with the grievance above.
Ken explained what happened in his post above perfectly. It was one of the longest most drawn out things I’ve ever been a part of. It was terrible. Most of the information I was getting was 3rd or even 4th hand type stuff. One day my head was in hand, next I was getting photos of some other skull.
Bottom line is that Ken has made a diligent effort to locate and recover that buffalo head. I believe that. I also believe that he made the right choice to never do business with Steyn Potgeiter again. I think that guy is an incredibly shady character that will likely wind up in a jail over there somewhere.
I guess the reason this one bugs me was my efforts to avoid exactly what happened. I made sure to organize a trip I could afford where we were just going hunting. I made sure to pay for the highest category of trophy, even offering that I might be happy with a smaller one and use the surplus for other stuff. I’d saved up for several years and used my work bonus to pay for the trip. It was a big deal for me at the time for sure.
It’s easy to misread and misinterpret intentions and direction of commentary online.
I guess I can go back to not looking at this site anymore now. Y’all have a good one.
^....this was actually a great thread to follow along. As I said above, I don't have a dog in this hunt....but I learned a lot from both parties and have a better appreciation about the importance of good comms. I say thanks to both guys for discussing it.
Lol, this guy….. and I say that as someone that will never hunt Africa, not someone trying to curry favor with an outfitter
SIP same here. I find that statement "currying favor") illuminating.
This was an awesome thread
# 2 Halibutman issue was answered very well
The original complaint Keith got jumbled up pretty fast.
The issue was simply, Keith booked a free range buffalo hunt and when he got to Africa it became a high fence hunt. Does not matter how many Hectares it is it’s still fenced. Yep buffalo are wild as hell and will kill you in a second. I have had two PH friends killed by fenced buffalo.
The issue is when did Ken know he could not produce the hunt he sold Keith. Was their time to address that with Keith before he arrived in Africa. That was never addressed in any of this
I don’t know Ken. Know of him and his successes in Africa. He does not run the best outfit or the worst outfit Just a solid outfit with good PH and produces great trophies. Certainly not a bad choice for a hunt
I know Keith because he and Rodney ( one of the other African Clients on the trip) hunted whitetail deer and hogs with us in Texas last year.
Keith and Rodney booked a hunt with us, came on the hunt, sot their animals and left. No issues. Another successful hunt
I probably missed something while reading all of this but I came away with a communication problem between parties and not notifying the client of the changes until the client arrived in Africa.
Just my perspective on this after 40 years in the business
You got that right Rob but the deception was much much deeper. I won’t go into it all. Thanks for mentioning that about Rodney and I. We just want up front straight shooters out of our outfitters. Ken and his wife actually admitted that they “overlooked “ not notifying us about the change in venue. Yeah right! No apology. No reparations. In their typical passive aggressive manner they tried to pass the blame onto us. The 4 of us spent somewhere in the $50k range with Moody. None of us would have booked this hunt had we known the changes.
Hopefully, my last comments on this matter…this hunt was booked thru an agent, not directly with us. We have around 6 good agents we use, each one working differently…The agent took all the bookings and deposits, forwarding me the balances once his commission was deducted…this particular booking occurred simultaneously with the booking of many other buffalo hunts from the same agent…The info being passed back and forth from the agent and myself (including this group) was part of a 60 message email thread pertaining to all the clients requesting info or making actual bookings, around 20 plus individuals…All of this occurring while we were on the road finishing up our trade show season and preparing to leave for Africa…there is no formal booking sheet from the agent to us specifying hunt particulars. It’s booked as a buffalo hunt package, no venues, or other particulars annotated anywhere…it was a flurry of activity from the agent as he was overwhelmed with information requests and people making actual bookings…I was trying to manage the schedule and ensure we had no overlapping in bookings as they were coming in fast…We made the bookings with no specific venue in mind as some of them were two years out..while I may have been cc’d in the emails between the agent and potential clients, I didn’t read thru all of them as I was working our trade show booth at the time…in short, bookings were coming in faster than normal and neither the agent nor myself did a good enough job making sure all the pertinent info per client was properly addressed…it was booking en masse.
When the contracts were issued to these clients, two years after the actual booking, the Limpopo North venue was annotated on the contracts. This is what they signed and this is where they hunted. Covid delayed the safari for two years and while the buffalo hunt package was $10,950 at the time of the hunt, I honored the contracted rate of $8900 which was the price in 2018 when they made the initial booking. There was virtually no profit margin on this hunt. Irrelevant to the situation, but important to note.
Three of the four clients had a great time with us and requested information for return hunts. I’ve included their actual comments above. The fourth client shot a buffalo, wounded a sable, and wounded a red lechwe. He apparently wasn’t happy when the PH had to track and actually kill his game for him. His complaints about the PH only came to me on the trip back to the airport at the end of the hunt. I addressed the matter with the PH and we moved on…the fourth client then also messaged me about a return trip provided I provide some sort of compensation for his perceived troubles…to appease him and honestly, because I really like the other three and would enjoy hunting with them again, I offered a $3500 credit to him on a follow on hunt.
This situation occurred because the clients booked a hunt with one of our agents during a peak period of incoming bookings and the flow of information from the agent to us was sketchy at best. It didn’t help that the time from booking to the actual hunt was four years which is a lifetime in Africa.
I’m attaching some of the messages between the agent and myself to highlight the confusion that was occurring during this 60 message chain of surplus hunt requests. I’ve redacted his information as he’s a quality agent and a friend and do not want to disparage him in any way. We both just got overwhelmed for a bit as these bookings were all made within a short span…corrections have been made now both on our contracts and our handoff from agent to us.
I also had another agent trying to book up our quota which added to the confusion with date availability as I was juggling between these two agents and what dates were left open.
There's always 3 sides to every story. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of the Jay Fuller mountain lion hunt finally?
Enough of this nonsense, you guys work your disagreements out somewhere else.
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