Could you have made that 40y shot?
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Beendare 28-Jul-22
Beendare 28-Jul-22
cnelk 28-Jul-22
huntr4477 28-Jul-22
Beendare 28-Jul-22
Shawn 28-Jul-22
HDE 28-Jul-22
JL 28-Jul-22
bigeasygator 28-Jul-22
Thornton 28-Jul-22
molsonarcher 28-Jul-22
RK 28-Jul-22
RK 28-Jul-22
Dale06 28-Jul-22
RK 28-Jul-22
spike78 28-Jul-22
Buffalo1 28-Jul-22
Grey Ghost 28-Jul-22
Catscratch 28-Jul-22
Boris 28-Jul-22
Grey Ghost 28-Jul-22
Woods Walker 28-Jul-22
SBH 28-Jul-22
Woods Walker 28-Jul-22
WV Mountaineer 28-Jul-22
cnelk 28-Jul-22
Matt 28-Jul-22
Kurt 28-Jul-22
MrPoindexter 28-Jul-22
cnelk 28-Jul-22
DanaC 29-Jul-22
pav 29-Jul-22
midwest 29-Jul-22
WV Mountaineer 29-Jul-22
Woods Walker 29-Jul-22
fuzzy 29-Jul-22
bigswivle 29-Jul-22
RonP 29-Jul-22
Hackbow 29-Jul-22
Matte 29-Jul-22
Charlie Rehor 29-Jul-22
Inshart 29-Jul-22
12yards 29-Jul-22
Brotsky 29-Jul-22
Will 29-Jul-22
dakotaduner 29-Jul-22
brettpsu 29-Jul-22
scentman 29-Jul-22
fuzzy 29-Jul-22
BowSniper 29-Jul-22
Ucsdryder 29-Jul-22
deerhunter72 29-Jul-22
Thornton 29-Jul-22
Beendare 29-Jul-22
Bowfreak 29-Jul-22
drycreek 29-Jul-22
RK 29-Jul-22
Corax_latrans 29-Jul-22
KSflatlander 29-Jul-22
Thornton 29-Jul-22
scentman 29-Jul-22
ToomanybowsBob 29-Jul-22
Thornton 29-Jul-22
Thornton 29-Jul-22
Scar Finga 29-Jul-22
Corax_latrans 29-Jul-22
fuzzy 30-Jul-22
Beendare 30-Jul-22
Treeline 30-Jul-22
Huntiam 30-Jul-22
Matte 31-Jul-22
2Wild Bill 31-Jul-22
LBshooter 31-Jul-22
Thornton 31-Jul-22
Thornton 31-Jul-22
Thornton 31-Jul-22
Thornton 31-Jul-22
Pat Lefemine 31-Jul-22
Rocky D 31-Jul-22
Will tell 31-Jul-22
Bake 31-Jul-22
Rocky D 31-Jul-22
ahunter76 31-Jul-22
bigeasygator 31-Jul-22
nmwapiti 31-Jul-22
bigeasygator 31-Jul-22
Rocky D 31-Jul-22
deerhunter72 31-Jul-22
bigeasygator 31-Jul-22
Rocky D 31-Jul-22
tobywon 31-Jul-22
Thornton 31-Jul-22
ahunter76 31-Jul-22
deerhunter72 31-Jul-22
Thornton 31-Jul-22
bigeasygator 01-Aug-22
keepemsharp 01-Aug-22
Thornton 01-Aug-22
cnelk 01-Aug-22
bigeasygator 01-Aug-22
keepemsharp 01-Aug-22
Thornton 01-Aug-22
Thornton 01-Aug-22
Thornton 01-Aug-22
RK 01-Aug-22
Thornton 01-Aug-22
Thornton 01-Aug-22
Rocky D 02-Aug-22
bigeasygator 02-Aug-22
scentman 02-Aug-22
Thornton 02-Aug-22
RK 02-Aug-22
Thornton 02-Aug-22
bigeasygator 02-Aug-22
RK 02-Aug-22
Rocky D 02-Aug-22
Rut Nut 02-Aug-22
Thornton 02-Aug-22
bigeasygator 02-Aug-22
fuzzy 02-Aug-22
IdyllwildArcher 02-Aug-22
Rocky D 02-Aug-22
Zim 02-Aug-22
Grey Ghost 02-Aug-22
WV Mountaineer 02-Aug-22
IdyllwildArcher 02-Aug-22
Grey Ghost 02-Aug-22
scentman 02-Aug-22
KSflatlander 02-Aug-22
RK 02-Aug-22
bigeasygator 02-Aug-22
Thornton 02-Aug-22
Thornton 02-Aug-22
Thornton 02-Aug-22
Thornton 02-Aug-22
t-roy 02-Aug-22
Thornton 03-Aug-22
Rocky D 03-Aug-22
Ken Taylor 03-Aug-22
Rocky D 03-Aug-22
bigeasygator 03-Aug-22
Thornton 03-Aug-22
Thornton 03-Aug-22
Thornton 03-Aug-22
Grey Ghost 03-Aug-22
groundhunter50 04-Aug-22
Thornton 04-Aug-22
fuzzy 04-Aug-22
fuzzy 04-Aug-22
Bowbender 04-Aug-22
KSflatlander 04-Aug-22
deerhunter72 04-Aug-22
Thornton 04-Aug-22
RK 04-Aug-22
Thornton 04-Aug-22
Thornton 04-Aug-22
Rocky D 04-Aug-22
Thornton 04-Aug-22
IdyllwildArcher 04-Aug-22
Bowbender 04-Aug-22
bigeasygator 04-Aug-22
Thornton 04-Aug-22
bigeasygator 04-Aug-22
Grey Ghost 04-Aug-22
Grey Ghost 05-Aug-22
Thornton 05-Aug-22
bigeasygator 05-Aug-22
Thornton 05-Aug-22
Thornton 05-Aug-22
Catscratch 05-Aug-22
Thornton 05-Aug-22
Catscratch 05-Aug-22
Thornton 05-Aug-22
Fuzzy 05-Aug-22
Catscratch 05-Aug-22
Rocky D 05-Aug-22
Orion 05-Aug-22
Rocky D 05-Aug-22
Catscratch 05-Aug-22
WV Mountaineer 05-Aug-22
bigeasygator 05-Aug-22
Catscratch 05-Aug-22
Catscratch 05-Aug-22
Will tell 05-Aug-22
Thornton 05-Aug-22
bigeasygator 05-Aug-22
Thornton 05-Aug-22
Thornton 05-Aug-22
Orion 06-Aug-22
bigeasygator 06-Aug-22
Bowbender 06-Aug-22
bigeasygator 06-Aug-22
krieger 06-Aug-22
Thornton 07-Aug-22
Beendare 07-Aug-22
JSW 07-Aug-22
Orion 09-Aug-22
Grey Ghost 09-Aug-22
Thornton 09-Aug-22
bigeasygator 09-Aug-22
Orion 09-Aug-22
Rocky D 09-Aug-22
fuzzy 09-Aug-22
spike78 09-Aug-22
keepemsharp 09-Aug-22
Rocky D 09-Aug-22
Thornton 09-Aug-22
Thornton 09-Aug-22
Rocky D 10-Aug-22
From: Beendare
28-Jul-22
With a defensive pistol!

The news story of that 20y old kid that drilled the active shooter in an Indiana mall- saving who knows how many people. The news said he drilled him at 40yds braced against something.

We are talking defensive pistol here....my guess is many of us are much better with our bows at that distance than a CC pistol- a layup shot with a compound.

Could you have made that shot in the same circumstances as that 20y old kid with your defensive pistol of choice?

I'm going to say no....as I never practice past about 40ft with a pistol [but I am now!]

From: Beendare
28-Jul-22
FWIW, I pulled this from a forum where cops were discussing the shoot, not sure if its legit but sounds like it;

Got some info from a Simon Properties guy who has watched the Greenwood mall active shooter attack video footage. He doesn't think about the details like we do, but I confirmed a few things thru him.

The distance at which Eli Dickens fired was 43 yards, according to the computerized AI video system there in the mall. The system is accurate to within ten feet.

Eli was up out of his chair within seconds and engaged with the shooter.

Eli fired from around the side of a flat-topped, squared-sided trash bin next to a floor-to-ceiling column or pillar there inside the building. He was shooting from what we'd refer to as a "strong-side barricade" position. Using the side of the bin to stabilize his grip and weapon. The guy told me it looked more like he was crouched there as opposed to kneeling.

It appears Eli made a kill shot with the first round he fired based on the suspect's reaction. His second round was a hit also. The active shooter simply wilted after being shot and showed no interest in doing anything other than getting back into the men's restroom door. The active shooter never fired at Eli, never even swung his gun toward him. It appears that he wasn't expecting anyone else to have a gun.

After the active shooter collapsed, he kept moving, and Eli continued to fire until the target's movements halted. Eli hit with 8 of the 10 shots he fired. It was a blessing that the active shooter collapsed so quickly. It's always easier to hit a stationary target.

There appear to have been bystanders running between Eli and the active shooter as Eli was firing. The bystanders were running for the nearby exit door. Eli was so focused on stopping the threat that he came close to hitting some of the fleeing bystanders, but luck was with him. I don't understand people running toward or past people who are armed and shooting at someone. But people do strange things when they're under stress.

This part is in no way confirmed, but another security guy at the Greenwood mall said the empty casings from Eli's pistol were marked with Federal Cartridge headstamps.

I find it interesting that the active shooter was psychologically out of the fight pretty much immediately upon being shot. That's largely been the case with active shooter incidents since we've been keeping stats on them in the 1990's. Except, of course, for the ones involving militarized terrorists, like the Inland Empire (California) attack in 2012. I'm thinking of the active shooters involving suspects who are video-gaming incel civilians like the recent ones in Highland Park and Buffalo.

From: cnelk
28-Jul-22
Did he only fire one shot?

From: huntr4477
28-Jul-22
God bless him! He is a REAL hero !

From: Beendare
28-Jul-22
You guys didn't answer the question.....

The hero fired something like 10 shots and had 8 hits in the one story I read.

From: Shawn
28-Jul-22
I shot a lot for a lot of years, combat pistol, defensive pistol drills and even long range handguns 300 yards plus. I shot tens of thousands of rounds over about 30 years, thought I was pretty good. I can say without a doubt I would of struggled to do what this kid did. I may of hit the guy my first shot, if I remained calm enough but a kill shot at 43 yards is incredible. To me it would of involved a lot of luck but this kid was very skilled!! I will say this, some people are just naturally gifted and this 22 year old kid seems to have the gift!! Shawn

From: HDE
28-Jul-22
Yes, I could not.

From: JL
28-Jul-22
The Youtube channel Police Activity has some long range pistol shots taken.

WRT to the perp situation in question, me thinks if it was indeed 40+ yards, that first take down shot was a lucky shot. The follow up ones may be more doable with the body laying on the ground. I know one technique we were trained on way back when was to skip the shots...especially shotgun shots. Shoot in front of the shooter and the round(s) will bounce off the ground and skip into the perp or body. Of course it's easier if the perp is laying horizontal. The idea for a standing perp skip shot was to hit the lower extremities. If the guy was skipping shots, ya...I can see him hitting the perp with a few at a distance. Whether intentional or not.....it was effective shooting.

From: bigeasygator
28-Jul-22
I have trained A LOT and also compete in USPSA pretty regularly. USPSA doesn’t necessarily put a premium on distance, but the guys I’ve trained with regularly do and running drills at 50-100 yards with pistols is fairly common. So I’d like to think I’ve trained for that scenario and consider myself a pretty decent pistol shot. Now with that said, all of that is on paper on a one way range with no one shooting back. Even on paper when you start to push it past 25 yards, if your fundamentals aren’t solid you’re going to struggle with a pistol. It really was incredible what Eli pulled off.

28-Jul-22
Not capable of doing it.

From: Thornton
28-Jul-22
I got bashed earlier for saying it is easy. But then again, I live in the country and when I get bored, I try to to hit the 18" gong at 100 yards with my 9mm or .22 pistols. I've got an old Browning semi auto I can hit it almost every time. I've watched my buddy walk .45 ACP bullets out of a Glock into hit a 300 yard gong across a watershed lake. What you described is what I read, the active shooter never fired at him and he seized the moment. Sounded like a turkey shoot to me on behalf of Eli.

From: molsonarcher
28-Jul-22
Im with Gator on this one. Eli pulled off something most of us couldnt, and probably shouldnt attempt. Ive shot many tens of thousands of pistol rounds at ranges from 0 feet to over 100 yds. With some of my more custom handguns (think 1911 style), milk jugs at 100yds plus are a regular thing. My compact concealed carry guns, the same at 50yds. Static targets, no adrenaline, buddies around, not potential bystanders, no bullets potentially coming back at me. This was truly a feat, and probably had some sort of divine intervention involved(not taking anything away from Eli).

From: RK
28-Jul-22
Great honest answers. No matter how many people any of us have shot in the past the answers were consistently the same with lots of real skill level.

I have to agree on two things. One skilled trained shooters here are impressed with this man’s skills

And two. Only Thornton is skilled enough to pull this off even with a 22 and blind folded. Shooting only at the sounds of the shooter. We all should be honored to have Thornton posting here with all of us mortals

28-Jul-22
RK,

It is one thing to shoot well when you are at a range, in the right mindset, and with distances you know and have practiced at is what a lot of responses seem to admit.

What is amazing is this young man responded so quickly without any warning. In an environment that he might have closely assimilated in training, but it wasn’t exactly the same and he had to quickly and accurately estimate the distance while everyone was running around.

I always shoot a lot better with my bow at home from marked yardages than I do at a 3D tournament with varied distances, and so do the other shooters I have attended with.

From: RK
28-Jul-22
Habitat. I agree. So many variables in this Nevertheless incredibly impressive by that young man.

Great stuff and really hero brave stuff even if the shooter did not know that at the time of the shooting

From: Dale06
28-Jul-22
If I had a rest, or a pillar to lean up against, yes, I could make the shot with several of my revolvers.

28-Jul-22
Agreed, another variable, think how much better we shoot without all of the pressure of someone watching.

Was there some luck, some Divine Assistance? Maybe, but I bet this kid practiced constantly, even just drawing his firearm to build the muscle memory to be able to do what he did.

From: RK
28-Jul-22
Habitat.

I agree with ALL of your last post.

Everything real and more were on that kids side

Skilled and to young to be scared

From: spike78
28-Jul-22
To make a very important point about this is that what I read is Eli carried a Glock 19 which is a sizable pistol same size as the P80 I carry. I first started out with small micro compacts purely for comfort carry but found I absolutely suck with them. Now add a capacity of 6-8 rounds and you are now under what Eli shot. Don’t carry for comfort carry for results. I now carry a P80 in .40 S&W with 13 rounds, a Sig P365xl, or a Glock 21 in .45 acp with 13+1. Screw the mouse guns. I’m a better shot with the larger guns and even at 5’4” and 155 pounds I can conceal a Glock 21. Can’t say it is the most comfortable but carry what you can shoot accurately. I will say I do not practice much at long shots but will be doing more in the future.

From: Buffalo1
28-Jul-22
Eli truly rose to the occasion at the "moment of truth." No telling how many lives he saved. A true hero.

From: Grey Ghost
28-Jul-22
Nope. I can still shoot some tight groups at 40 with my handguns, but that’s in a controlled relaxed environment. Under that kind of pressure I’d be lucky not to shoot myself.

Matt

From: Catscratch
28-Jul-22
^^^ What Grey Ghost said.

From: Boris
28-Jul-22
It sounds like he had tunnel vision and completely focused on his target. Remember, we do it all the time with our bows.

From: Grey Ghost
28-Jul-22
Boris has a point. Most good bow hunters excel at the moment of truth. I’d rather have you old bitches watching my back than some young gunny.

Matt

From: Woods Walker
28-Jul-22
No way. That's what a shotgun's for!

From: SBH
28-Jul-22
There was holy intervention on that man and his weapon that day.

I said this earlier in another thread but these candy ass worthless bags of skin that attempt this stuff do not expect anyone to fight back. They are cowards and if a few more of these shootings are met with return fire I think it will have an effect on preventing future events.

Helluva a shot young man and Thankyou for doing the right thing.

From: Woods Walker
28-Jul-22
The time has come for the "bad guys" to start being afraid of the rest of us!

28-Jul-22
These mass shooters pick gun free areas for a reason. So, you can bet this evil piece of trash wasn’t expecting that. I bet when that first bullet hit him he was as shocked and horrified as the people he intended to kill.

I smirk every time I think about that. And, the realization that a striker fired handgun, (only an assumption as I don’t watch the news much plus, the round count), fired with that precision, was the result of a very well trained shooter.

They walk among you everyday. People with a purpose and the ability to hurt or help you. I’ve always figured making laws that produce more capable helpers versus evil thugs was the best way to prevent these type things.

Life supports that theory. Think about it. Only one man in the last 55 years has openly mocked and tortured Mike Tyson willingly. For obvious reasons, the one idiot that did do it, won’t ever do that again. Same principle applies when these idiots pick their locations to do these shootings.

In my mind, that pretty much trumps emotions created by having more well trained good guys. Plus, it’ll fill the coffins with the bad guys instead of random people. I like it.

From: cnelk
28-Jul-22
I don’t know if I’d make that shot or not.

I do know my gun would be empty trying

From: Matt
28-Jul-22
What he did was amazing. I wouldn't begin to guess if I could have made those shots or not, near impossible to compare what you can do at the range versus what you could do if the $#!+ hit the fan right in front of you.

From: Kurt
28-Jul-22
I shot my .44 magnum S&W 629 6" barrel (before I moved to Canada) about as well as I shoot a bow...not in combat, rather shooting single action...including shooting a few prairie dogs out a ways with it, winning an egg shoot against semi auto shooters, etc.

The light, short 329 S&W 4" barrel .44 Mag I had that weighed half as much as the 629...I probably shot it half as well. I'd guess that semi-auto carry guns would be like shooting the 329 but with lighter recoil. Doubt the semi auto carry gun triggers are near as good as the two S&W revolvers mentioned were in single action mode....probably more like shooting them double action. So that said...sounds like the shooter did well with the carry gun...likely better than most would.

I'll ask the question...could you put 8 of 10 arrows in a combat situation into a man-sized silhouette target at +40 yards?

From: MrPoindexter
28-Jul-22
I certainly could put 8 of 10 arrows in a combat situation in that target, but not in 15 seconds and I would probably be dead from counterfire before I incapacitated the shooter. Bows are fantastic for hunting. They really suck as a defensive weapon.

From: cnelk
28-Jul-22
^^^ exactly why the native Americans wanted rifles

29-Jul-22
I would like to hear more about this young man’s upbringing and training. Moving to cover before firing, gaining a rest, taking aim to make that first round count. All while the aggressor is shooting people, Shows a lot of poise under fire. He obviously was well prepared and had the proper mindset.

Is there any legal action against him.

From: DanaC
29-Jul-22
I'd have a hard time with an open-sight rifle under those circumstances. This young man performed exceptionally well.

From: pav
29-Jul-22
Pistol at 40 yards...not a chance.

I don't know Eli personally...but very appreciative and proud of our hometown hero!

From: midwest
29-Jul-22
God was on Eli's side.

29-Jul-22
Boom. That’s right Nick.

God will help humanity. If people take what he offers. Instead of assuming they have all the answers.

From: Woods Walker
29-Jul-22
"God helps those who help themselves". He does, and Eli did.

From: fuzzy
29-Jul-22
No. I used to be a very good handgun shot. Not competitive level but good. Aerial targets with .22 rimfire, hunting squirrel with .22 killing groundhogs consistently, and deer hunting with .44 Magnum revolvers out to 50 yards. One or two hits maybe. 8/10 no way.

From: bigswivle
29-Jul-22
I can’t hit anything at forty feet with a pistol

From: RonP
29-Jul-22
i would need lots of luck to shoot that well with a handgun.

too bad this young man doesn't meet the criteria to have a statue built of him.

From: Hackbow
29-Jul-22
Not a chance. I'd be ecstatic with 8/10 on target at 25yds offhand in 30+ seconds. I cannot fathom what he did in that situation. Thank God he was there, prepared and willing.

From: Matte
29-Jul-22
Shoot alot of firearms weekly. I have also been a paintball park operator and player for 25+ years. I have done simunitions with swat (they really hurt) as a bad guy and that is not even close to fear I am sure a real threat would pose. Point is I have been in non life threatening simulations and answer is no not on a regular bases. Some swat training even the officers who are in control have their heart rates racing at 170+ during a simulation. Lots to think about on this one and a lot can be learned by this.

29-Jul-22
Realistic possibility of Divine Intervention.

From: Inshart
29-Jul-22
Eli did an outstanding job that VERY few could replicate. As others, I have put quite a few rounds through handguns - no way I could do what he did, even under controlled situations.

Relating to school shootings:::::: Several years ago I went to a seminar where Lt. Colonel Grossman talked about these "kids" who are playing games where they get points for killing people (extra points for killing first responders / law enforcement).

He talked about how these "kids" are extremely accurate - out-shooting most cops, and how they have grown incensed to what life really is -- to them (the active killers) this is just another game of sorts.

From: 12yards
29-Jul-22
No way I could do that.

From: Brotsky
29-Jul-22
I could not, but I knew Thornton could.

From: Will
29-Jul-22
I might hit a target at 40 with a handgun, if I threw the handgun at the target vs shooting it at the target. In that scenario, the larger surface area of the handgun flying through the air would increase the odds of success... Such is the measure of my skill.

From: dakotaduner
29-Jul-22
I would be way better with the bow at 40 yards than any 9mm I own. Glad he was there to step up

From: brettpsu
29-Jul-22
With my M&P CC gun....odds not great. With my revolvers or 1911 much better chance but not 8 of 10 in that circumstance. I will probably take Spike78's advice and carry my larger framed guns more often now.

From: scentman
29-Jul-22
I doubt I could pull that off. Thank God he did.

From: fuzzy
29-Jul-22
brettpsu, same here. That's why I don't even own a "carry gun". Virginia gun laws and rural LEO attitudes make it feasible to carry full size most places and I find a way to do it. If I need to shoot I need to hit.

From: BowSniper
29-Jul-22
With a compact carry, that is VERY impressive shooting at distance!!

Shooters on YouTube are videoing themselves trying something similar and calling it the "Dickinson Drill"

From: Ucsdryder
29-Jul-22
It seems unfathomable honestly. 80 hit rate at 40 yards with a pistol in a HIGH stress situation?! I bet .01% of people could do that and I bet the amount of military/police is less than 5%. Of course I’m just throughing oUT BS stats! Even if he didn’t have an 8/10 hit percent it still would have been highly effective because these shooters aren’t going into the situation figuring they’re going to engage with someone returning fire.

From: deerhunter72
29-Jul-22
No, I don't think I could've done what that young man did. He obviously has a lot of natural ability and outperformed what 99% of us could do in an extreme, live situation. I personally agree with several others here, God put him where he needed to be and gave him the ability to respond to save lives. What a hero!

From: Thornton
29-Jul-22
I think more of you could do this than you're giving yourself credit for. Read the narrative. This was not a situation where the shooter was even shooting at the good guy. I've seen a similar instance like this happen dozens of times in ER where a patient codes unexpectedly, and a new grad walks up and hits a vein with the IV while veteran paramedics and RNs are fumbling and scrambling around and the patient is flopping around from chest compressions and being turned for defibrillator pad placement and CPR board. Vomit from compressions and blood everywhere, alarms going off. People yelling, no IV access yet for lifesaving meds, and bam! The newb gets it. If you think it's easy, when the heart stops beating, or goes into a nonperfusing rhythm, the body shunts blood away from the extremities to protect organs. This causes veins to disappear or become nonpalpable. Some people just don't get excited, and focus on the task at hand. Bullets do not drop at 43 yards. In fact, pistol bullets only drop a few inches at 100 yards. If you keep your hands steady, and have a good trigger squeeze, that pistol will shoot where you're aiming.

From: Beendare
29-Jul-22
I would agree with Matte....a lot to be learned from this. I will be interested to hear the detailed story.

I don't think its a guess to say that Eli is a practiced pistol shooter- probably a club shooter.

I do think its worth examining the principles Grossman expounds on in his book, "On Combat" [hat tip to Mez for recommending that]

Eli shot 10 rounds....and he was totally focused on the shooter while folks ran in front of him- that could have been bad. Current combat training recommends accurate shots on target then expand your peripheral vision. It sure looks like Eli had tunnel vision on the threat- common in that situation. Grossman points out its critical to expand your peripheral vision for other possible threats.

The fact he reacted immediately to the gun fire ...and the fact he picked a barrier for stability and concealment exhibits he has been training.

It will be interesting to hear his story...but also my bet is the PD's take notice and incorporate this barrier long distance shooting into their training if they haven't already.

Eli....I hope they pay you a million bucks for your story.....

From: Bowfreak
29-Jul-22
"I've watched my buddy walk .45 ACP bullets out of a Glock into hit a 300 yard gong across a watershed lake." The shooting, while extremely impressive, pales in comparison to the ability to walk on water. :)

From: drycreek
29-Jul-22
At one time I could have nailed it if it was a target, gong, dirt clod, etc. They never shoot back. Now I’d be lucky to hit a torso silhouette at forty yards without a reflex sight, but my carry gun does have one on it. Has anyone considered that the first shot might have been plain old luck ! I once hit a hand thrown clay bird at about 25 yards with a .45 Auto but I never tried it again. :-)

From: RK
29-Jul-22
Bowfreak

Thank you for the perfect start to my weekend. Can’t stop laughing and smiling on that one!!

29-Jul-22
I don’t believe the first round was luck.

He ran to real cover, got a solid rest and most likely knew once he fired the first shot he would then draw fire.

He would have known that first shot was the only one he could take his time with.

29-Jul-22
That’s a helluva shot. Smart move to get to cover and a rest.

There’s probably something to be said for not knowing that making that kind of shot under those conditions is Not Possible. Good that nobody else got hurt. Hope Eli is not too traumatized by the whole thing. It’s a hell of a thing to kill a man… Or so I’m told by men who’ve done it. Don’t really want to find out.

I’m sure I can hit at that range with a rifle, irons or not. Assuming I keep my Stuff together. Vertical, man-sized target with a bow - like a standing bear 3D, I don’t expect to miss many on that walk-up. Not talking 10s, just not a lot of clean misses. Pistol, No Data. But I know that most people would have to get lucky to nail that one on the first take. So I’m gonna say I would probably have been looking for a good, covered position a whole lot closer before drawing the shooter’s attention to myself.

From: KSflatlander
29-Jul-22
“He would have known that first shot was the only one he could take his time with.“

This is a great point. He must of known or believed that once he fired the first shot that there would be return fire. Eli taking cover first makes believe this is probably true. Or maybe he was on autopilot.

Regardless, Eli is on a different level. It’s the guy you want next to you in a fox hole…as my WWII vet grandfather use to say. Some ordinary people do extraordinary things.

That’s a hell of a shot at that distance under that pressure. I couldn’t do it constantly. No way. I can’t do it constantly without pressure.

From: Thornton
29-Jul-22

From: scentman
29-Jul-22
Altitude got it, good perception!

29-Jul-22
And in the end luck had a great deal to do with it too. Not in his accuracy or his shooting ability, but can you imagine the outcry if he would have hit an innocent? All it would have taken was on running person to step into the line of fire and they would have been charging him with murder.

Glad it didn't happen like that. TMBB

From: Thornton
29-Jul-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
45 yards was easy this morning, ten rounds per pistol. But then again, there wasn't some guy randomly shooting at other people nearby.

From: Thornton
29-Jul-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Train at ten yards, and you'll be good at ten yards-maybe.

From: Scar Finga
29-Jul-22
No way could I do that, and I don't believe that 99% of the people walking could do it in a high stress combat situation! Very few special forces guys could have pulled that shot off! Pistols are a close quarters combat weapon! Look up the statistics on shots fired in close combat, within 21 feet, it's crazy!!! A 40-yard kill shot with a pistol in a combat situation is insane!! God was definitely on his side that day! I would love to see him recreate the situation on a range and see if he could pull it off... I bet he couldn't!

Thank God he did!! He probably saved a lot of lives! And now he has to deal with taking a human life. Even in self-defense that can be a brutal thing to deal with! He is in my prayers!

29-Jul-22
TMBB is dead right about that. I don’t get paranoid about leftist agendas, but there is certainly an anti-gun bias out there, and on this one all they have to talk about is how rare it is for a Good Guy to turn up when needed. Had anyone gotten into the line of fire, they’d talk about nothing else.

No Good Deed goes unpunished, right?

From: fuzzy
30-Jul-22
I think this conversation is (a rare thing with BS non bowhunting threads) a positive thing. Even those who come off a bit smug on the side of "heck yeah I'm ready, dunno why the guy flubbed the two misses" will be re evaluating their response and thinking about maintaining those skills. Those of us who carry and consider ourselves fairly competent will be motivated to sharpen skills. Those who carry and don't have the skills, or havent put in the practice time and money, May be motivated to improve. It's easy to say "self defense is a matter of inches to a few feet, I can hit a man in the chest at ten feet so I'm good". When you start thinking about a scenario where you're on the spot at what's essentially hunting ranges, 25 to 50 yards, most of us would have to get better in order to make a competent response

From: Beendare
30-Jul-22
I would disagree Scar. I think there are many folks that train with a pistol at that range that can make that shot.

The ex Navy seal at a pistol class I took, did a demonstration and hit an 8” steel plate EVERYTIME at 50y- bang bang bang with fairly rapid fire from his G19. I know many club shooters USPA and IPSC guys that can do it. These guy train.

Its my understanding, many cops don’t shoot much with their duty weapons- thus the reason for poor hits on target stats.

I’ve seen it in pistol classes. We consistently outshot the cops in the class and they admitted they needed to shoot more.

I built the outdoor pistol range for the LEOs in Concord,Ca and spent some time with the various agencies there. Some depts used to be tight on their ammo policy…… disincentivizing practicing with their firearm. The ones that do train are very proficient.

From: Treeline
30-Jul-22
Two things were obviously at play for him to make the shots he did.

This young man had good training and laser focus on the target. Glad he didn’t hit any of the people running past between him and the attacker! Doubt they even registered when he was in the zone…

From: Huntiam
30-Jul-22
On the internet yeA I could do it .. Real life prob not 8/10 times under that pressure no.. Good shot young man should get a metal

From: Matte
31-Jul-22
So far I have seen about 25 clips on Tictok and not one shooter has came close.

From: 2Wild Bill
31-Jul-22
He was not lucky, Providence was using him. General George Washington: “A man is never more truly noble than when he is sensible that he is only a secondary instrument of bringing to pass God’s great designs.”

From: LBshooter
31-Jul-22
The amazing thing is he put 8 out of 10 shots in the subject, that should be the question asked lol. I believe he used a glock and I would say I could hit a target at that distance at least once out of ten shots lol. Maybe he had a little help from the big guy upstairs to stomp out evil, either way you look at it that young man is a hero. He took a pea shooter up against a cannon, that's guts. Also, his girl friend sprung into action afterwards to help the wounded with her nursing skills. Hope they get the thanks and attention they deserve. Let's also remember the liberals like the views gals were upset that he had a pistol in a gun free zone, it's just nuts how these idiots think.

From: Thornton
31-Jul-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Tik Tok is about as unreliable as they come Matte. I searched a few youtube channels and they all did it.

From: Thornton
31-Jul-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo

From: Thornton
31-Jul-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo

From: Thornton
31-Jul-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Heck, even the guy shooting a snub nose .22 with a broken dominant put 7 of 8 shots on the target in 8 seconds at 40 yards.

From: Pat Lefemine
31-Jul-22

Pat Lefemine's Link
Great thread.

I’ve been in a shooter situation a long time ago when a nut walked into a convenience store in NY with an assault shotgun (I can’t carry in NY).

I learned two things that day: most people are paralyzed by fear, understandably, when a situation like this happens, and I also learned I wasn’t one of them. I immediately had situational awareness and moved quickly behind cover. I was hyper focused and wished I had my Sig when he entered. I know, without a shred of doubt that I would have neutralized that maggot had I been allowed to carry. It reminded me of my grizzly charge where I shot the grizzly with my recurve at 4 yards. Everything in slow motion and completely in control- until it was over then I had unbelievable anxiety.

Im sure there’s some psychological name for the ability to execute and focus during extreme danger. It’s absolutely real and I am sure this Indiana young man experienced it. Not everyone has it, but I do.

That being said, I couldn’t make those shots at 40 yards. I doubt Biden will give him the Presidential Medal of Freedom but if anyone deserves it, it’s this kid.

God bless the protectors. Like the guy defending the Texas church in Texas. Still gives me the chills.

From: Rocky D
31-Jul-22
Thornton, you are digging yourself a hole that you can’t climb out off!

It’s like my brother told me about whooping a guy that’s much smaller than you. You can only look bad and you look really bad if he beats you.

This guy was prepared and capable and had the presence of mind to act in a time of crisis.

It speaks volumes about your character as you continue to minimize this guy’s actions!

From: Will tell
31-Jul-22
I've seen some crazy things but Eli hitting that shooter with people running between them is amazing. I worked in a Prison and you train for situations. When the Shi# hits the fan all bets are off. I've seen some tough guys freeze up and some regular guys step up. Training is a necessity but being a good shot on the range has nothing to do with shooting when your Ahole is puckered up.

Personally I had to disarm inmates three times, one with a Knife, one with a pair of Scissors, and one with a Razor Blade. Your nuts have to be tight if your going to fight. I was very lucky and attacked rather than retreat surprising the Inmates. All three times I was without backup so it was a balls to the wall situation. For that young man to engage rather than run shows what kind of person he is.

From: Bake
31-Jul-22
I doubt I could have made the shot at 40 yards. I hope I would have tried. Without ever being in such a situation I just honestly don’t know.

It’s easy to talk tough when it’s never happened. I would trust the quiet guy over the loud talker every time FYI

From: Rocky D
31-Jul-22
Thornton, you are digging yourself a hole that you can’t climb out off!

It’s like my brother told me about whooping a guy that’s much smaller than you. You can only look bad and you look really bad if he beats you.

This guy was prepared and capable and had the presence of mind to act in a time of crisis.

It speaks volumes about your character as you continue to minimize this guy’s actions!

From: ahunter76
31-Jul-22
Thank God he was that skilled. I was a Navy Corpsman (medic) with the Marines. My weapon was a 45. When we rock n rolled my Marines passed the word, make sure Doc has a Rifle, he can't hit chit with his 45. I remember one time saying, boy, I wish I had my bow, I would be better off (that was in stick bow days). I say few can do what he pulled off without lots of practice & or talented as someone mentioned. Many lucky people he was there that day regardless.

From: bigeasygator
31-Jul-22
LOL @Thornton. Those videos you posted are all HIGHLY trained and HIGHLY skilled shooters. Those are guys with strong fundamentals who shoot A LOT. As I maintained, if you are in that camp and train at distance, 8/10 on a man sized target at 40 yards isn’t too crazy, especially on paper on a one way range.

But most people do not train or shoot nearly that much. Eli, from what I read, had no formal training and learned to shoot from his grandfather. As such, 8/10 shots at 40 yards on a man shooting other people and likely not completely static without formal training is near impossible. I’d add that I think most people that own pistols and even most people that carry have little to no formal training, which would also make this feat close to impossible for them as well.

And for the record, your blurry pictures of a target at 40 yards that you can’t see isn’t very convincing proof you can shoot. I also don’t see a timer in that photo.

Those of us who carry and consider ourselves fairly competent will be motivated to sharpen skills. Those who carry and don't have the skills, or havent put in the practice time and money, May be motivated to improve.

This right here^. I encourage everyone to get out and train!! Look up some reputable instructors in your area and take a class or two if you haven’t already. And if you have, keep training and improving.

From: nmwapiti
31-Jul-22
Dunno. Maybe. On a calm day at the range, sure. I hope I would have the composure and quick thinking to engage immediately. As long as you hit him with a couple, the job would get done. Never been in a scenario where someone could shoot back though. He's got my respect.

From: bigeasygator
31-Jul-22
Im sure there’s some psychological name for the ability to execute and focus during extreme danger. It’s absolutely real and I am sure this Indiana young man experienced it. Not everyone has it, but I do.

I have no doubt this happens at times. But from the vast majority of people I’ve trained with who have actually been in gun fights, they largely think the notion of “rising to the occasion” is a myth. They say instead, you will fall back to your level of training. The message is clear - build up your fundamentals and get as proficient as you can, as when the time comes it’s rare that you’ll ever be any better than your average day, and likely will be worse than that. Do all you can to make sure your “bad” is still relatively “good.”

From: Rocky D
31-Jul-22
Thornton, you are digging yourself a hole that you can’t climb out off!

It’s like my brother told me about whooping a guy that’s much smaller than you. You can only look bad and you look really bad if he beats you.

This guy was prepared and capable and had the presence of mind to act in a time of crisis.

It speaks volumes about your character as you continue to minimize this guy’s actions!

From: deerhunter72
31-Jul-22
Videos of people shooting 40 yards at a range proves nothing. You can’t reproduce a “live” situation where people are under fire. I agree that training is great and gives you an edge, maybe even a big one, but no one can say for certain how they would react to a live shooter until they’ve been through it. I really think I would react well and try to save lives but I can’t KNOW that for sure. I hope and pray I never have to find out.

From: bigeasygator
31-Jul-22
Im sure there’s some psychological name for the ability to execute and focus during extreme danger. It’s absolutely real and I am sure this Indiana young man experienced it. Not everyone has it, but I do.

I have no doubt this happens at times. But from the vast majority of people I’ve trained with who have actually been in gun fights, they largely think the notion of “rising to the occasion” is a myth. They say instead, you will fall back to your level of training. The message is clear - build up your fundamentals and get as proficient as you can, as when the time comes it’s rare that you’ll ever be any better than your average day, and you likely will be worse than that. Do all you can to make sure your “bad” is still relatively “good.”

From: Rocky D
31-Jul-22

From: tobywon
31-Jul-22
However it happened, I’m glad it happened the way it did, other than the loss of the innocent lives before the shooter was taken down. Prayers go out the these unfortunate people. I would need Devine intervention or luck to do it I know. I wonder what would have happened if he missed, there is a big part of me that thinks this coward would have retreated back into the bathroom if he knew someone was shooting back at him. We will never know and I’m glad it didn’t happen that way but these whackos go into situations like this not thinking they will have much resistance until they have done a lot of damage. Then most usually kill themselves as the pressure mounts.

From: Thornton
31-Jul-22
Rocky- sad the way you think. I am not taking away from the heroic actions of the shooter. Makes me sad that guys on here are agreeing that this shot can't be made, when in fact many people could do it, including you, if you wanted to. I suppose it's because this is a bowhunting forum and the gun forums are projecting a very different opinion on this shot than this one.

From: ahunter76
31-Jul-22
Many things come into play when you put a human in your sights & know you are going to kill them, bad as they are. Surprising how many would not pull the trigger if not trained.

From: deerhunter72
31-Jul-22
I’ll throw in one more thing here. I know a guy who was a fantastic shot with rifles and he was really big into black powder shooting for a time. He was not a hunter, just enjoyed shooting. A few years back some friends finally convinced him to try deer hunting and he was bitterly disappointed to find that his great target shooting did not extend to shooting at a live animal. Just couldn’t believe he missed the first few deer he shot at. He did not continue hunting because he didn’t like it. I think some of the same logic applies here. Just because you can drive tacks into a metal plate at 40 yards doesn’t mean that you can do the same when attempting to shoot a human.

From: Thornton
31-Jul-22
BEG- how do you explain the guy with a broken dominant hand and a snub nose? Your comments are making me think you're a bad shot. I tried it again this evening at the farm and was 9/10 the first try with a Beretta 92. Most law enforcement don't train that much. We are the biggest county in Kansas and officers only have to qualify 1-2 times per year. A civilian that shoots regularly has the potential to be a much better shot.

From: bigeasygator
01-Aug-22

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
BEG- how do you explain the guy with a broken dominant hand and a snub nose? Your comments are making me think you're a bad shot

No clue what you’re talking about regarding a broken dominant hand and a snub nose. As far as being a bad shot, I can post plenty of evidence that suggests I’m not. Here’s some runs from a local USPSA match as well as my picture with Kyle Defoor after a Defoor pistol hat qual (10 rounds, 25 yards, 15 seconds, 90 or better on a B-8). I’d say it’s a little more convincing than the pics of guns on a bench you posted.

I agree most law enforcement are not great shots. That said, most law enforcement have WAY more training than the average civilian and they still don’t shoot that well. The point is that the shot that Eli made is not an easy shot for the average person under zero stress. And under significant stress it’s almost impossible. You keep suggesting it’s easy based on you going outside, shooting without a timer, and without someone potentially shooting back at you. That’s not the shot he took.

From: keepemsharp
01-Aug-22
Thornton: you are not the biggest Co. in Kansas, you only have the most humans.

From: Thornton
01-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
BEG- I've got a video of me shooting at 41 yards if I can figure out how to get it to load. How close are you shooting at your matches? Yes we are keepemsharp and we don't have the most people because our 14 towns or so are fairly small. Johnson County beats everyone by population.

From: cnelk
01-Aug-22

cnelk's embedded Photo
cnelk's embedded Photo
Went to a Bar & Grill in Wellington Colorado yesterday - saw this on the front door. Thought I’d was worth taking a pic.

From: bigeasygator
01-Aug-22
BEG- I've got a video of me shooting at 41 yards if I can figure out how to get it to load

YouTube.

How close are you shooting at your matches?

Target distances vary in USPSA - from literally a few feet out to 25+ yards. USPSA does not put a premium on accuracy at distance. It is more about the balance of speed and accuracy required to get a solid hit factor. But no doubt the top shooters (guys like Max Michel, JJ Racaza, etc) have incredible fundamentals to perform as they do and are generally VERY good when shooting for accuracy at distance.

From: keepemsharp
01-Aug-22
Thought you haled from Sedgwick.

From: Thornton
01-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Big Easy. Had a buddy video me yesterday,but his I-phone was blurry when sent to my Android. So this evening, I shot the drill one handed, and videoing with my other hand. 9/10 hits in 13 seconds. I uploaded mine to YouTube but it isn't very clear. Good enough to see that I did it. Also the only guy to do it one handed on YouTube.

From: Thornton
01-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
I hung it in the tree after ranging it to get more of a clang sound during bullet strikes.

From: Thornton
01-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo

From: RK
01-Aug-22
Stop Thornton. Please just stop.

From: Thornton
01-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Crickets. I'm still waiting on the trash talkers. There are literally hundreds of guys shooting this drill now.

From: Thornton
01-Aug-22
Big Easy? Maybe we should have a longbow contest? Or maybe long range precision? Sporting clays anyone?

From: Rocky D
02-Aug-22
Thornton, killing big deer in Kansas is easy.

So how many net 170 or higher Whitetails do you have on the wall?

From: bigeasygator
02-Aug-22
That’s great shooting, Thornton. No clue what the gong size is, but clearly what you did requires a solid grip, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger press, and follow through…something most people that pick up a pistol don’t have. To Rocky’s point, just because you show you can do something doesn’t make it easy. Furthermore, running the drill on paper or steel will be far easier than on a live target shooting back at you, with the auditory exclusion that comes from gunfire in a contained food court, and people undoubtedly screaming and running by. For Eli to have the situational awareness to what was going on, maintain his composure, and execute in the manner he did was incredible. Nothing about it was easy.

From: scentman
02-Aug-22
Eli did it, we didn't... you can't foretell the future. What happened may be just a miracle, or a well trained person at just the right time... do not make this about yourself.

From: Thornton
02-Aug-22
Rocky D I see you like to change the subject and redirect when I call you out in trash talking in PM. That's ok.- maybe easy for you. I don't sit in a tree long, nor do I use feeders or cell cams. As proven by my semi live hunts, I do a lot of stalking in open, treeless country. I own a couple small properties saturated in bucks, but only 3 that crossed regularly have made the 170" mark. Too many neighbors shooting the 150"s, which I have 7 that are 150". I grew up hunting heavily pressured private land and public. My two biggest public bucks are 186" and 168".

Big Easy- thanks, I shoot both eyes open.. and, he wasn't being shot at.

From: RK
02-Aug-22
You should try to keep both eyes open in the rest of life’s issues also

From: Thornton
02-Aug-22
Again- redirection. Read the thread. It is presented in a question. I answered it, based on my abilities, and also suggested many of you can do the same thing. Apparently not.

From: bigeasygator
02-Aug-22
Big Easy- thanks, I shoot both eyes open.. and, he wasn't being shot at.

What does shooting with both eyes open have to do with anything? You still need solid front sight focus when shooting at that distance to get those kind of hits and it's going to result in some level of reduced situational awareness/tunnel vision.

And regardless of whether Eli was being shot directly at or not, the pressure of engaging someone actively murdering other people with the threat of potentially being shot back at is nowhere near the pressure of shooting steel or paper. Not sure why you feel the need to continually downplay what he accomplished in order to stroke your ego. What he did was nothing short of miraculous and the results he delivered would be extremely difficult to replicate by even the most skilled and experienced shooters under those conditions.

From: RK
02-Aug-22
Yes Thornton you did answer the question. And I might add you may have over answered it. Having said that, thanks for participating and now just go away. I bet you have heard that slot in your life, so I know you understand it

From: Rocky D
02-Aug-22
“ do not make this about yourself.”

Amen!

Thornton, not a redirect. I have been surrounded by some of the best shooters in the world but nothing that I have seen or anything that you have said has either added or taken away from what Eli accomplished.

His name will be remembered! Yours on the other hand, may not.

No, this was definitely not a redirect.

I was giving you a chance to talk about something that you may know about but all I got was a bunch of excuses.

As they say in the army, the maximum effective range of an excuse is 0 meters.

02-Aug-22
Rocky,

Thornton has a cousin in the Marine Corps, that trumps your actual service;-)

Thornton, go congratulate the hunter recognized by B&C for their 175” black tail, without making it about you and/or minimizing their accomplishment.

From: Rut Nut
02-Aug-22
From: 2Wild Bill31-Jul-22

He was not lucky, Providence was using him. General George Washington: “A man is never more truly noble than when he is sensible that he is only a secondary instrument of bringing to pass God’s great designs.

AMEN! You hear about it from time to time..........................people that do extraordinary things with God's help that they should NOT be able to do!

From: Thornton
02-Aug-22
Again, this thread was presented as a question. I answered it, and some of you disagreed. BEG felt the urge to plaster his pics and scores on here in an attempt to make himself look like a better shooter. Most of what you said is true BEG. If I wanted to stroke my ego, I would have made an elaborate video, showing my face, pounding my chest like every other one on YouTube. I only made it to prove a point because so many of you said it can't be done. I still haven't seen any other one handed shoots on there. Rocky- you are from Georgia. Sitting over a cornpile is not hunting. Until you prove you've taken bucks otherwise, I wouldn't call what you do, hunting.. Habitat, I have served the public for going on 17 years, on teams saving and improving lives. 1 year of that was at the VA in Wichita. Go back to your community college and continue filling those poor young minds with your endless hot air. I'm headed to the farm to do some skidsteer work. Maybe I'll make another video with a snubnose .38 at 40 yards..

From: bigeasygator
02-Aug-22
BEG felt the urge to plaster his pics and scores on here in an attempt to make himself look like a better shooter

No, I posted those in response to your assertion that, and I quote, "Your comments are making me think you're a bad shot." Also, I never called you a bad shot...I just said what you were offering up as proof - saying you could do this and posting blurry photos of a target - were not very convincing.

I only made it to prove a point because so many of you said it can't be done

I don't see anyone saying it can't be done. I see a lot of people saying they couldn't do it. People who train and shoot a lot can execute the drill fairly "easily." It doesn't mean it's an easy drill for the average shooter. Also, executing the drill is way different than executing the feat Eli accomplished in real life. You are literally the only person I've heard who maintains that what Eli did is "easy" - and this includes talking to a lot of people about this who have actually been in gunfights. The fact is, you are hypothesizing that it is "easy" and you'll never know unless you are put in that situation. There's always a fine line between confidence and arrogance, and the consensus here seems to be you're way overstepping the line.

From: fuzzy
02-Aug-22
It just occurred to me that (regardless of accuracy) I only wish I were SURE I could engage, and follow through until my weapon WAS EMPTY, in that situation. I think I could but I don't know for sure. Humbling thought.

02-Aug-22
I could not do it. I could hit a shed 8/10 at 43 yards.

From: Rocky D
02-Aug-22
“ Rocky- you are from Georgia. Sitting over a cornpile is not hunting. Until you prove you've taken bucks ”

You can’t bait on public ground!

This is not about me but was simply a reaction to you trying to minimize the enormity of the actions taken by Eli that day.

Ninety nine percent of the population cannot do what he did that day. In no way does going out on a flat range and banging away on steel compare to the actual event.

I know tons of guys who can shoot the 3-D target but come unglued when it’s on animals.

Does a target give you the same rush of adrenaline?

Imagine shopping with your girlfriend and all of a sudden there’s some freak show shooting people. What do you do? Do you stand there? Oh, now you remember you have a gun…

Eli acted bravely maintaining composure to hit the guy 8 out of 10 times. He eliminated the threat swiftly with deadly precision under the heat of the moment conditions.

He has been weighed and measured and found worthy!

His name will be remembered!

From: Zim
02-Aug-22
I have a Glock 22 but rarely shoot it. I rarely shoot any of my guns. I’m just an archery guy. But based on my Illinois CC qualifying shoot, I would have no chance of hitting 8/10 from 43 yards. Glad it was Eli there and not me.

From: Grey Ghost
02-Aug-22
Thornton must have the smallest dick of any man alive.

Matt

02-Aug-22
One thing I find telling about people is their quickness to belittle anyone that can do what they can’t.

I don’t forget a lot of things I read. I’ll forget your name in 5 minutes if we are talking. But, I don’t forget what people write.

I’ve always paid attention to the things Thornton has stated about firearms. Because it’s obvious from previous threads over the years, he knows a lot about him. So, it wouldn’t surprise me if every single thing he says pertaining to his accuracy is true. Actually, I’d be surprised if it wasn’t.

I don’t take it as bragging. Because he said most anyone can match him. That’s a guy that has been there and done it.

I know his frankness pisses some people off. But, If you know firearms and spend time around people who do as well, you know what he says is true. Even if you can’t accomplish it. I believe that because I know people who possess that kind of accuracy.

It’s like a bow in that Not all practice is the same. That’s my experience. And, it’s the experience of everyone who’s posted on this thread too.

But, it is funny to read this. I’m betting all who loathe him wouldn’t stand out and test if he’s lying. Regardless of their internet persona.

Keep on keeping on.

02-Aug-22
I also believe that Thorton is representing his shooting ability with honesty. I think he just rubs a lot of guys the wrong way.

That said, you can't say you could put 8/10 in a dude with an AR unless you've done it, just like you can't say you'd stand firm and make a good shot on a charging grizz till you've done it.

You can say that, on a target, you're X/XX at XX yards because you've done it. But it's just like bowhunting: Just because you can shoot a bow well to 80 yards and practice that far does not mean that you are going to kill anything at that distance.

From: Grey Ghost
02-Aug-22
I know from my experience in competitive archery, at a high level, that good practice shooters are a dime a dozen. The reason only a few guys consistently won every tournament was they'd excel under pressure. Until Thornton has excelled under the pressure this kid did, I'll remain unimpressed.

Matt

02-Aug-22

Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Actually Ike and Justin I think Matt has it right. No doubt Thornton is well above average…at a target range, the rest is unknown.

What is turning people off IMO is not his frankness about his own ability, but a failure to acknowledge that this young man rose to the occasion.

Using Thornton’s same logic, being an RN with an Associate’s degree is not that big of a deal since so many people accomplish the same every year. Yet most of us recognize the hard work and dedication that went into such an undertaking, and we respect it. No doubt this young shooter performed under extreme duress in a situation few of us have faced, and he deserves our admiration and respect even if we can do the same on paper. (Again, I cannot.)

From: scentman
02-Aug-22
From past experience at 40 yds aiming for his heart, I would hit him square in the nuts with my Ross compound... all the time a horse fly on the tip of my nose.

02-Aug-22
It’s the bow. A Hoyt would hit him square in the heart;-)

From: KSflatlander
02-Aug-22
I believe Thornton posted here within the last couple of years that he was shot at but I don’t remember him stating that he returned fire.

From: RK
02-Aug-22
If he returned fire you damn well would have heard about it Probably got peppered Dave or duck hunting

From: bigeasygator
02-Aug-22
What is turning people off IMO is not his frankness about his own ability, but a failure to acknowledge that this young man rose to the occasion.

100%, Frank. I’m fairly sure I could pass the drill fairly regularly. However, passing the drill - which I don’t think is an easy drill for someone that doesn’t shoot a lot - and doing what Eli did are two completely different things.

Until you’ve been in a gunfight you haven’t earned the right to call what he did easy, regardless of how well you shoot paper. And the people whose opinion I respect on this topic the most who have been there and done that have described Eli’s feat as anything but “easy.” Characterizing it as such is a level of arrogance that is almost unmatched.

02-Aug-22
Jason,

I agree. Have military friends who have said people would be surprised at the number of soldiers who freeze up first time in combat even though they trained for it.

A vivid memory I have from Marine Corps OCS is the guys who came in all tough talking about how bad they were. Usually is was the bigger guys who equated physical size with toughness. They were some of the first to DOR, drop on request.

To be honest, I was a poor working class kid who was under-weight so there was no limit on how much I could eat. I would have went to hell and back just to not feel hunger, so I stayed, lol. Of course, a couple of beers in me and the story changes to how bad I was;-)

From: Thornton
02-Aug-22
Rocky-if you shoot 170"s on public regularly, I could learn something from you.

Not sure how this damn thread became a question if I could shoot a mass murderer or not. Anybody that's spent 30 minutes around my house understands there's usually not ten feet between me and a gun ready to kill a varmint if it needs killed. Shooting a mass murderer would literally give me perma grin for the rest of my life. I work in emergency services. There's not a passive bone in my body and I'm used to running to trouble. But I do agree with some comments on here. We've had high, homicidal, drunk, abusive patients start threatening ER staff, and some of our most assertive doctors wilt and go hide in the med room until the patient is arrested.

As per my statements, I was surprised at how many people thought I was trying to take away from Mr. Dicken' heroic intervention. I was simply disagreeing that 40 yards is a hard shot on a man sized target , and most could make it if they tried or practiced. The trash talking commenced, and endures to even now. I mean, what else am I supposed to shoot besides a target to prove that for some, it is a fairly easy shot?

As was mentioned earlier, I think Mr. Dickens was proficient with his Sig Hellcat, which is a very accurate compact pistol. He seized the moment, much like many of us do when we make the decision during a hunt to execute a kill. His complete dedication to finishing the job makes it very clear to us all he knew what he was doing.

I have never returned fire. The trespasser in 1999 that fired 6, .22 bullets over our head was out of ammo. Back then, it was illegal to carry a pistol during archery season. However, my friend with me was a deputy and had a .45 Ruger in his pocket. The drive by shooting last spring was meant for the drug house a block up the street. The shooter mistook my and my neighbor's house as the victim's duplex. I was in the yard in less than 1 minute with Kevlar on and my Beretta at the ready. Quick enough to give a description of the shooter to the cop that showed up a few minutes later and they made an arrest on my description. I could still smell the gunsmoke. The detectives pulled a .40 cal. Bullet out of my tree for ballistics rather than tear the walls up in my neighbor's bedroom. Luckily she was laying down watching TV when the bullets went through her bedroom window. The 2019 incident seemed to be a pissed of hunter flinging lead at me and my hunting partner at a range of about 600 yards in Colorado. He fired 3 times, I was looking directly at him and saw the muzzle flash. In a panic, my mind told me I had maybe a second to hit the ground, which I did. All 3 bullets impacted about ten yards from us. Other hunters we encountered in the parking lot that were also hunting the burn, said there was no game on the burned mountainside when he started shooting. At the time, I supposed he thought we might be the black bear we had just seen up top, but then again, we were wearing blaze orange. Hindsight tells me he was pissed off.

RK, two years ago in the Fall River WA a guy was shooting doves at sunflower stalk level. I yelled at him we were across the field about 70 yards as were multiple other hunters, but he kept shooting. Doves were flying really low as usual prior to sunrise. He finally did hit me with a pellet in the leg and everything around me. Nothing more than a slight sting on my heavy upland pants, but there would be great harm bestowed on anyone that would put my dog's eye out. I promptly stormed across the field with my big lab and l walked up to him in a heated manner and warned him never to shoot at anything but 'up' again. He didn't say much, but he and his buddies left about ten minutes later.

Getting peppered happens all the time during teal season, but it's different because nobody knows where anyone else is in the cattails. Teal coming from all directions, and bigger shot that travels farther. Limited marsh access has our public Kansas spots packed.

02-Aug-22
“ Shooting a mass murderer would literally give me perma grin for the rest of my life”

Wow, just wow.

From: Thornton
02-Aug-22
Frank, I told you, if you carry on with this much excitement, you'll surely break a hip. Despite your military experience as a young boy, you still can't shoot, so I'm not sure why you must continue trash talking on this thread? I mean after all, if you get excited and experience symptomatic hypertension, that associate degree paramedic may just bring you to see me, God forbid. I mean after all, I'm only a nationally licensed RN with 2 associate degrees, and 2 credits shy of a bachelor's. 16 years ER experience and I think maybe I wouldn't be able to care for an aging, border line dementia patient with a superiority complex that likes to send nasty PMs to anyone that might support me. How about you just go comment on your boring Habitat thread and brag about all the biologists that come to your farm? You and ole Flatlander can sit around and reminisce how hard it was to kill deer before corn piles became popular. Talk about degrading somebody, especially when that somebody has devoted a better part of his life to take care of people.

02-Aug-22
Lol, the paramedic would have to be lost to drive me where you work.

But I would insist on seeing someone who places a higher value on life.

From: Thornton
02-Aug-22
BEG- that metal circle target is 17.5" across. It is my 550 yard rifle target. I believe the targets you shoot are 18"x30".

From: Thornton
02-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
First try. Couldn't get any better than 3/5. First 3 bullets were 125 gr jacketed and the last 2 were 158 gr wadcutters.

From: t-roy
02-Aug-22
Maybe your arm was just sore….

From: Thornton
03-Aug-22
No, but I was sure tired. I mowed, and trimmed 6 yards then jumped in the skidsteer and ran it for 3 hours in 103 degree heat with a broken AC. I noticed other guys on YouTube were making hits with that gun at 75 yards.

From: Rocky D
03-Aug-22

Rocky D's embedded Photo
Rocky D's embedded Photo
“ Rocky-if you shoot 170"s on public regularly, I could learn something from you.”

Thornton, not in Georgia. Comparing Georgia to Kansas Is like comparing an active shooter incident to a sterile range environment!

I’ve spent the last twenty years trying to increase realism to live and simulations training and in doing so I had to take subject matter experts within the area of a discussion and after 9/1/1 there was no use to take a SME unless he had a combat patch. No one wants to hear what he has to say.

The discussion turns south real quick when you have two combat veterans sitting there and you got a noncombat veteran trying to make comments! They ain’t buying it!

P.S. I just to took this Kansas public land deer to a friend who met me in Arkansas. They are out there!

From: Ken Taylor
03-Aug-22
Coincidently, there's an interesting article in the August edition of Fur Fish Game magazine about hunting and shooting at fairly long distances with regular handguns.

From: Rocky D
03-Aug-22

From: bigeasygator
03-Aug-22
As per my statements, I was surprised at how many people thought I was trying to take away from Mr. Dicken' heroic intervention. I was simply disagreeing that 40 yards is a hard shot on a man sized target , and most could make it if they tried or practiced. The trash talking commenced, and endures to even now. I mean, what else am I supposed to shoot besides a target to prove that for some, it is a fairly easy shot?

Well maybe you should've been a little more careful with your words, as you said

"Not sure of the situation, but 40 yards on a man sized target is pretty easy. Good shooting nonetheless."

The whole point is that (1) no 40 yards on a man sized target isn't easy unless you practice and become proficient (which most people don't) and (2) the situation was pretty obvious - a man fires 24 rounds from an AR-15 into a busy mall food court, murders three people, injures a few more. There is nothing easy about executing the shot that Eli did.

Regardless, what is your normal EDC gun Thornton? I'm assuming it isn't that Beretta...

From: Thornton
03-Aug-22
That's a once in ten lifetimes buck Rocky. I've lived here my whole life and I used to lease and guide on 6,000 acres and never saw or shot anything that big. Shot a 190's 6x6 back in 99' but he made it onto the neighbor. I found out his son found the rack. Conversation went quiet when I offered to buy the rack. I found 175" last February and I'm hoping just to see him this year.

From: Thornton
03-Aug-22
Again, I only know how I shoot, and again, the shooter never even pointed his rifle at Dicken. I grew up.big game hunting long before I got into targets. My dad, grandfather, and every soul went to church with owned land. Dad was an underwriter and sold crop insurance. We knew everyone and literally had thousands upon thousands of acres to hunt well into the late 90's not counting the 10,000 acres of public only a few minutes from town. There were times I would be flying down the road at 60 or 70 mph, see a coyote on property I had permission on, and be stopped and shooting in a matter of seconds.. Pretty much everyone I rifle hunted with was able to shoot like that with scoped high powers. I went on a deer drive once. We covered over 2 miles of ravines with open country at the top and in an hour filled 3 truck beds with 11 does during an antlerless management hunt and I didn't kill or shoot a single time. I was a blocker. All the herds kept running over the edge of the ravines instead of coming by me at the end. Almost all were running. That was back when we could get 5 doe tags and up to two buck tags.

From: Thornton
03-Aug-22
BEG, whatever I decide to carry I guess. My old Sig P6 is accurate enough to hit a milk jug every time at 50 yards. I bought it years ago when I was a volunteer deputy running traffic. Im not as accurate with the .40 cal Glock. But it is my truck gun and is always at hand when I get off work at 1 AM in the city. The Taurus Millenium is about as good as the Beretta and never jams, unlike the Sig. The Taurus 38 revolver is good enough for shooting something big out to 25 yards and isn't as accurate at the 38 Smith and Wesson. I often carry a Taurus TCP .380 as a pocket gun when going into stores. I've got a pair of them and have found them to be much more accurate that the Ruger LCP .380. The Beretta .22 and Taurus copy aren't reliable enough due to the usual primer issues with. 22 ammo. The 1911 Springfield is a great, accurate gun, but I don't like to carry it due to the weight.

From: Grey Ghost
03-Aug-22
I think Thornton’s dick may actually be inverted.

Matt

04-Aug-22
Either way, the guy did a tremendous job,,,, but for those of you who never took another humans life, regardless of the situation,,,,, their are things that stay with you,,,, for those of us, that have been there, done that, you know what I mean,,,,,,

From: Thornton
04-Aug-22
Says the character with a handle calling himself the "Grey Ghost" and an obsession with male genitalia.

From: fuzzy
04-Aug-22
Well this one finally went further South than I care to be.

From: fuzzy
04-Aug-22

fuzzy's embedded Photo
fuzzy's embedded Photo

From: Bowbender
04-Aug-22
Still....so much ego to admit what Eli did was extraordinary.

"Anybody that's spent 30 minutes around me understands there's usually not ten feet between me and a gun ready to kill something if it needs killed. Shooting a mass murderer would literally give me perma grin for the rest of my life."

First, every ER I have been ever in, has had armed security and a police presence just from bringing bad actors in. So stop pretending your part of a five man stack ready to breach, m'kay.

Second...A number of years ago my dad and I were watching a movie, typical terrorist hostage scenario, tables got turned good guys have the guns. I made the comment that I would just shoot them. Dad made the comment I never forgot. He said "It's not as easy as you think." For reference, he was a gunner in an M18 Hellcat tank destroyer. Saw some neat places like the Huertgen Forest, Bulge, Alsace, Remagen...

Third, While I didn't exchange fire, I did have a life threatening situation. Five "gentlemen" wanted to do bodily harm, as the situation escalated, I opened my jacket placed my hand on my SW6906 and asked if there was a problem. They decided not and left. I didn't have a perma-grin. I didn't have the attitude of "something needs killing". No. I puked. Shooting a milk jug at 50 yards ain't the same as a human at ten. Or forty.

Fourth. I would scrub all your posts about "something needs killing" and "have a perma-smile" at killing another person. Your glibness and almost lighthearted attitude at killing someone would be benefical to a gung-ho prosecuting DA.

Fifth. Step up, swallow that huge ego, and state that what Eli did was an extraordinary act. Like many have related from actual combat vets. But since the shooter didn't actually point his weapon at Eli, it was just like shooting a gong at ~40 yards. SMFH...

Sixth. Waiting with bated breath a long winded post filled with insults, derision, etc..

Seventh. I am truly impressed with your shooting ability. No, truly I am. With as much self back slapping I figgered your arm would be in a sling.

04-Aug-22
“ Sixth. Waiting with bated breath a long winded post filled with insults, derision, LIES, etc.”

Made it more accurate Tom, thanks.

04-Aug-22
“ Fourth. I would scrub all your posts about "something needs killing" and "have a perma-smile" at killing another person. Your glibness and almost lighthearted attitude at killing someone would be benefical to a gung-ho prosecuting DA.”

Is this what Red Flag laws are for? To prevent a ticking time bomb, someone with a chip on their shoulder and needing to prove something?

From: KSflatlander
04-Aug-22
“ Fourth. I would scrub all your posts about "something needs killing" and "have a perma-smile" at killing another person. Your glibness and almost lighthearted attitude at killing someone would be benefical to a gung-ho prosecuting DA.”

That’s really good advice but you are wasting your breath. I tried to tell Thornton something similar on a post a few years ago through a PM and he just tried to turn it around and said I was threatening him. He didn’t take the advice and his attacks, PMs, and threats escalated from there. Thornton apparently doesn’t understand the difference between an olive branch and a club.

From: deerhunter72
04-Aug-22
"Fourth. I would scrub all your posts about "something needs killing" and "have a perma-smile" at killing another person. Your glibness and almost lighthearted attitude at killing someone would be benefical to a gung-ho prosecuting DA."

Tom, thanks for pointing this out. I was thinking how insane it is for anyone, let alone the great Thornton, to put some of the things he has said in writing. These statements would highly incriminate anyone who ever actually has to defend himself. Could be the difference between self defense and murder. Circumstances wouldn't matter much to a DA who has a written proof that the "defendant" would enjoy killing another human.

From: Thornton
04-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
The word 'lambaste' should be chiseled into a few of your doors...

Lambasted for saying the vaccine didn't work as reported.

Lambasted for saying I'd shoot a mass murderer in a second, and smile knowing everyone in his range would be going home to their families.

Lambasted for saying I'm a RN.

Lambasted for saying I could make that shot, and lambasted again when I proved I could.

Surprised none of you took the time to conversate with WWII vets on their feeling toward killing the enemy, or took the time to understand their thoughts on what they would do to Hitler if given the opportunity.

Typical responses from the few instigators on here who "swing left" and plot like vipers to twist words.

Maybe Santa Rosa Sherrif Bob Johnson hit the head on the nail for you softies when he encouraged folks to shoot home invaders to save taxpayer's money on incarceration and legal costs.

Author Sam Keen said it best when he wrote: "If some incarnation of evil as unambiguous as Hitler appeared again,I would have no moral qualms about killing the enemy. But, in the modern world of moral murkiness, I prefer to keep my hands as free of enemy blood as possible."

Below is a varmint "that needed killing" before he caused damage to my Kubota wiring. A snake near my house suffered the same fate a few weeks ago when I went to check limb lines in my creek. Last winter, it was a mangy coyote lurking a short distance from my sister's chickens that I encountered while stalking her hedge row for deer.

From: RK
04-Aug-22
Brilliant. Kill the snake that would have helped keep the rats controlled. But as you said “there are lots of things that need killing”

Certainly a moron wrapped in an idiot is appropriate here

From: Thornton
04-Aug-22
Water snakes don't come into dry barns on top of a hill. The giant black snake that lives in said barn, has been allowed to thrive.

From: Thornton
04-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo

From: Rocky D
04-Aug-22
“ Sam Keen said it best when he wrote: "If some incarnation of evil as unambiguous as Hitler appeared again,I would have no moral qualms about killing the enemy. But, in the modern world of moral murkiness, I prefer to keep my hands as free of enemy blood as possible.”

Thornton, you can’t go quoting Sam Keen with a constant whine from all of your post filled with excuses. Fire InThe Belly is about being strong, resolute, and an independent vessel who doesn’t let the changing of the tides or the shifting of the wind take him off course!

Maybe you should read Iron John by Robert Bly if you’re still into self-help books!

From: Thornton
04-Aug-22
Bowbender- the hospital organization took away guns from our security over a year ago and subbed it out to Universal that doesn't use firearms. They have tasers, which are only used under extreme duress due to their potential to cause cardiac arrhythmia. There is one security guard at my hospital that is in good enough shape to do damage. He used to be a former bouncer, and actually used his CCL to stop a carjacking on I-35 and also shot a guy twice that was shooting into a crowd at a club in Wichita while he was working security.That being said, he is the only security guard I trust. The others are old, out of shape, overweight. and smoke. Last summer, he body slammed two aggressive patients. We handcuffed them while he restrained them in a bear hug. We then carried them to the lobby to await WPD. Since their firearms have been removed and county deputy badges taken, there has been a dramatic increase in hostility especially with intoxicated and psych patients. There is only one psych ER in town, and we get their diversions. My friend is a deputy in a nearby suburb and he said my ER has more calls some nights than his entire shift patrolling. That's a nice story about showing your gun to a couple guys and then nearly throwing up. I did that once in college to a guy that was driving on the wrong side of the road and nearly hit us and followed us home and refused to leave my porch. He called the cops after I produced a M92 and they showed up, cleared me, then made him leave after checking him for intoxication. All the cop said to me was, next time make sure the guy is in the main house like a living room, because a covered porch was a gray area as it wasn't used as a living space.

04-Aug-22
A bullet can cause a cardiac arrhythmia too ;)

From: Bowbender
04-Aug-22
"That's a nice story about showing your gun to a couple guys and then nearly throwing up."

If you could read, it was five not a couple. My friend and I had finished stocking a stream, about a mile stretch. As we got to our take out point, there was for better lack of words five bikers standing at our take out point. As we approached we started getting a ration of shit. As we approached the bank the five spread out. Told the lead big mouth (you know the type), Look just want to go to my truck and get a cold drink. That's when he said "That's not going to happen." At that point I stoppe, opened my jacket placed my hand on the grip and asked if there was a problem. He put his palms up said "no problem" and left. At that point, andrenaline kicked in, the shakes started and the nasuea set it.

I know it's not near as exciting as shooting a gong or a rat with a surpressed pistol, but hey we all can't be you. Honestly, reading your posts, you'd profile as a sociopath.

From: bigeasygator
04-Aug-22
Honestly, reading your posts, you'd profile as a sociopath.

I've felt that way ever since he tracked down my social media and posted a picture of me in a Halloween costume as a way to try and discredit me on another thread, as if that picture was somewhat relevant. Sociopathic behavior for sure.

From: Thornton
04-Aug-22
Sounds real scary bowbender. Nevermind the fact of your barrage of negative statements Big Easy before I did that. As with most of the threads that you dominate in an effort to appear like you are the all-knowing, the photo I posted showed you to be intoxicated in a dinosaur suit or something. BTW, you run slow in those pistol drills.

From: bigeasygator
04-Aug-22
lol

From: Grey Ghost
04-Aug-22
I’d like to nominate Thornton for the poster child for red flags laws. He’s the gun grabbing liberal's wet dream, sadly.

Matt.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Aug-22

From: Thornton
05-Aug-22
Feel free to include the entirety of the thread.

05-Aug-22
Thornton,

That you went back and changed “something” needs killing to a “varmint” is an admission you recognize your comments are in dangerous waters. In PMs you have threatened multiple people. Matt’s red flag comment is a legitimate concern regarding your judgment in my opinion. How many times after a tragic episode have people said there were warning signs?

Calm down, breathe. Consider talking to someone that can help you.

From: bigeasygator
05-Aug-22

bigeasygator's Link
Feel free to include the entirety of the thread.

I can only assume you’re talking to me and you mean this thread.

I wonder what happened to Dave.

From: Thornton
05-Aug-22
You are a hilarious hypocrite Hot Air Habitat. I did change it, because you twisted "something" to a person, even though I directly stated that if it were a person, that person would have to be a mass murderer, and I stand by that. "Something" is not to be confused with "someone" which I never said. As stated by another member on here, you are a "Dark Soul" content only to sit at home and find fault with others. You forget, I have on my laptop, screenshots of your threats from 2 years ago that you sent after you couldn't silence me. Those will come into play when the time is right. I'm not sure why you're so unhappy, but it is very obvious. I've been cleared by the ATF multiple times for Class III weapons, each of which took a 6 month background check. If a red flag law did exist in this state, I'd be more than happy to let anyone review anything I've typed, or anyone I work with, or anything I've put on Facebook.

From: Thornton
05-Aug-22
BEG- I meant this thread. Sad Frank is plotting to turn me in on a red flag law that doesn't exist, for threats that were never made. I'd be glad to give him the direct line to the ATF branch here in Wichita.

From: Catscratch
05-Aug-22
"I am innocent until proven guilty". Red flag laws goes completely against this concept. They are a slap in the face to freedom. For them to be touted on a hunting forum sucks. I've had disagreements with Thornton but they get worked out. And if ever in a shooter situation I'd be glad for him to be on my side.

05-Aug-22
Oh boy… All of us have history here, and it is recorded, even when we change stuff. Nice try on the bluffs, I don’t threaten, too smart for it and don’t want to invite a possible crazy to do something stupid. But yes, I did stand up to your threats just like others have done which sends you into a tizzy.

I had an FFL at one time. I would be surprised if the ATF would authorize you for one today. As you explained to BEG about why you stalked him on the internet, others would do the same and your social media posts are troubling at a minimum.

Everyone can see you are parsing your words now. That is good, it means you partially understand the serious nature here at least.

Like BEG, I also have kept a good record of exchanges. For proof, I quickly recalled the thread where I was attacked for hunting over bait didn’t I? Proceed with caution Thornton.

From: Thornton
05-Aug-22
Very interesting to watch Frank and his cronies twist this into something very dark.

05-Aug-22
Jason,

You ought to be bothered as much by his posts of false bravado as anything. Differences of opinion shouldn’t have to “ get worked out”, but as we see with Thornton that is too often the case. People should be able to state their views without being derided, attacked and lied about, or be stalked on the internet. I would rather have a person of character on my side, shooting straight in life is important in all facets, not just with a firearm.

05-Aug-22
There is no cronyism here, there is absolutely no collusion between people on the thoughts being expressed. That probably happens with who you associate with, but realize these are all very intelligent, independent minded men. We don’t let anyone tell us what to think.

What you need to understand is that numerous guys have had strong reaction to your posts for a reason. Focus on that for your own good.

From: Catscratch
05-Aug-22
I ignore his posts of false bravado. A lot of what Thornton has said is ill-advised in my opinion. It was suggested that he not say things like that as it could end in legal troubles for him. I agree completely and found it to be a good suggestion. But, until he murders someone he is an innocent and free man. Until his actions prove he it too irresponsible to own a gun then he should be allowed to own whatever gun he desires. The loudmouth drunk at the bar might be irritating to the core but as long as he doesn't drive himself home drunk he shouldn't have his car impounded. I believe in this core value of our system deeply. Throwing out redflag accusations at people sucks.

From: Thornton
05-Aug-22
"Person of character" is not how I'd describe you Frank. 2 years ago, I offered to meet you in person to figure out why you were attacking me and saying horrible false things you knew nothing of. Having never met you, nor having had a conversation before that point, I understood you are a deranged individual. When you attack someone, and they defend themselves, then you exclaim it's false bravado, you are the very description of a narcissist. I will ask that you not say another thing to me, or about me.

From: Fuzzy
05-Aug-22
does anyone know how to report concerns about a thread to a site moderator?

05-Aug-22
studies have shown that narcissists attract each other.

05-Aug-22
Jason,

Until he murders someone? Ok, we disagree.

More lies Thornton, to be expected.

From: Catscratch
05-Aug-22
ABSOLUTELY! Until he murders someone he is innocent of murder. Is this something we really disagree on?

05-Aug-22
No, what we disagree on is if action can and should be taken before murders. The mass murders weren’t murderers until they were. But we weren’t paying attention to the warnings.

By your own admission he is saying things ill advised. Yet, he continues. Judgment is rightfully questioned.

From: Rocky D
05-Aug-22
“ No, what we disagree on is if action can and should be taken before murders. The mass murders weren’t murderers until they were. But we weren’t paying attention to the warnings.”

WOW!

05-Aug-22
“… saying horrible false things you knew nothing of.”

You mean like labeling somebody ‘senile’ that you have never met?

I forget, your 16 years as a licensed RN grants you the capability to diagnose cognitive conditions over the web. That’s narcissism.

From: Orion
05-Aug-22
This thread is awesome. I hope habitat or bigeasy call in Thornton on a red flag law I'd love to see how that goes

05-Aug-22
I am not calling in anything.

Rocky, the majority including me support red flag laws when evidence supports the action. Evidence does not include a frivolous accusation.

But yes, wearing a perma grin after killing anyone, not what the guys here who have done it tell us. For me, I hope to never experience it.

From: Rocky D
05-Aug-22
“ Rocky, the majority including me support red flag laws when evidence supports the action.”

If you look at Thornton he doesn’t present any of the indicators that most nut jobs. So, I wouldn’t put a lot of credence into some lose talk.

Thornton has actually proven to be a pretty good sport than most people. My intent is not to belittle but to point out the ridiculous statements that he makes.

I would totally quit communicating with anyone long before I thought that they may become a problem and needed reporting to any government agency.

Do not worry, the FBI would love it because it fits the narrative that they’re wanting to chase right now so it would probably cause more harm than good since they have failed repeatedly in the past when red flags have been pointed out with prior shooters!

05-Aug-22
Hope you are correct.

From: Catscratch
05-Aug-22
Don't twist. I said ill-advised because it could cause legal issues, not because it makes him capable of murder.

We disagree in our foundation of what equates a free man.

I believe most who claim to want red flag laws actually want to be the finger pointer, and assume they themselves are immune to such accusations.

05-Aug-22
Be consistent Jason. Where were you when guys were posting crap they found on the web that had nothing to do with any disagreement being debated? Did you ever challenge any of that?

None of us are immune, but we have records that either protect us or otherwise from false accusations.

There is no twisting, legal violations of certain types can prevent gun ownership.

Willing to bet we will see less of this going forward. And that will be good.

05-Aug-22
There are definitely some people on this thread that hit the alarm button in my head. Ironically none are Thornton.

From: bigeasygator
05-Aug-22
I hope habitat or bigeasy call in Thornton on a red flag law I'd love to see how that goes

Not from me...he's just your run-of-the-mill creepy, stalkerish, internet sociopath; not your Red Flag warranting sociopath.

Back to the issue at hand. I had time to head to the range today after not having shot for quite a while (might even be a few months). Naturally, I devoted today to variations of the Dickens Drill. I ran it seven different times in four different ways - 1) running 40 yards first, 2) strong hand only (3x), 3) other strong hand only, and 4) the standard way it is meant to be done (2x). I ran it all concealed with my carry gun, a Glock 43X.

Had some issues with my timer that I had to deal with but it mostly worked. The results are below and Thornton now isn't the only person on the internet that as passed it with one hand. I taped each run so you can watch as well - and apparently couldn't get enough despite saying "one more time" about four times haha I guess I was having too much fun.

1. Run 40 yards - 10/10 ~17s FAIL on time 2. Standard drill - 9/10 ~9s PASS 3. Strong Hand Only - 6/10 FAIL 4. Strong Hand Only -7/9 FAIL on round count 5. Other Strong Hand Only - 5/10 FAIL 5. Standard Drill - 9/10 10.44s PASS 6. Strong Hand Only - 9/10 11.4s PASS

Shooting is simple...but not easy.

From: Catscratch
05-Aug-22
I don't even know what you are talking about anymore. Where was I during what? Do you expect me to defend everything that gets posted? Why are you asking me where I was, I have no interest in much of that stuff. My stance has not been unclear; I'm against redflag laws. Where have I said otherwise? Where have I inserted myself into any other part of this shit show? Where have I been inconsistent?

You did twist; "By your own admission he is saying things ill advised. Yet, he continues. Judgment is rightfully questioned.". I stand by my original statement that he said things that I feel is ill-advised. Him saying things that doesn't conform to my opinion of good things to say does not make him a murderer. Nobody's opinion of what he says determines he is a murderer. Since you brought up legal problems that can limit gun ownership please site the laws he's been convicted of that should require him to disarm. Please site facts and not just your personal judgements and feelings.

From: Catscratch
05-Aug-22
Never mind. Don't answer the questions. I've foolishly been sucked into something I have no business goofing with and I'm no longer willing to try to find the end of the circle. My stance is clear and unwavering. Saying it again and again makes no sense and is wasted effort.

05-Aug-22
Jason,

What I said is saying ill advised things, I will now add repeatedly, calls into question someone’s judgement. I NEVER said or implied it made him a murderer, and you know that.

Most felony convictions, such as threats, can warrant firearm possession being revoked.

Still uncomfortable with what I see as glibness over potentially taking a human life. Several others offered the same observation.

05-Aug-22
Agreed

From: Will tell
05-Aug-22
When I worked in a prison I had a Hispanic Inmate who worked for me. He shared his story with me.

I got into a argument with a very bad man. Everybody knew that this man killed three people. He told me, Roberto I'm going to kill you. He smiled and said, "I killed him first." He walked into the bar and shot him in the back of the head. He got sentenced 5 to 10 years but he said I'm still alive. Moral of the stories is don't make threats unless your going to back them up.

From: Thornton
05-Aug-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Big Easy, ole Dicken shooting that guy at 40 yards really caused us pistol shooters to step up our game. These guys that shoot at indoor ranges usually can't shoot past 25 yards. You ever hunt with a gun?

From: bigeasygator
05-Aug-22

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
99% of all of my hunts are bow hunts now. But I’ve dropped a few animals with my gun and I’m not necessarily opposed to doing it again one day.

From: Thornton
05-Aug-22
Looking forward to my mulie/Elk combo hunt this year.

From: Thornton
05-Aug-22
Are you TurkeyBowmaster Reincarnated? Lol. I've been flinging arrows from a longbow since I was 5.

From: Orion
06-Aug-22
Thornton ask him if any of those were shot without a guide holding his hand.

From: bigeasygator
06-Aug-22
Don’t see how that’s relevant to anything (besides somehow trying to diminish someone’s accomplishments), but since you asked, two out of those three were without a guide so…

From: Bowbender
06-Aug-22
"Looking forward to my mulie/Elk combo hunt this year."

Rifle or bow?

06-Aug-22
Nice animals, nice pictures BEG. Rifle or bow, we are hunters.

That muley? Seems so in the face, at least to me. Antlers seem to have whitetail characteristics. Is he a blend?

From: bigeasygator
06-Aug-22
Shot him in the very northeast corner of NM, Frank. I know there are whitetail in the area, but to my knowledge he’s all muley.

06-Aug-22
Thanks, hope I didn’t offend by asking. I have only hunted whitetail and observed very few Muley. Beautiful deer!

From: krieger
06-Aug-22
Whew, the thing that came to mind reading this gyrating thread was, at least we have agreed on the fact that individual range competency varies. Now we don't need to have any more arguments about if it's ethical for some guys to shot past 25 yds.

We have several admissions here, most likely justifiably so, that some folks can't do what a young lad demonstrated and DID. Maybe Eli is the Levi Morgan of the pistol world...who knows, " no formal training" that's one of my favorites..some of the best that ever lived had no formal training. Some of us would get nowhere with out it. That's the aspect of individualism that our culture wants to forget these days...we are all different in ability level.

Amazing. A 22 yr old , with no formal training , did what 300 fully trained and blessed by the powers that be, couldn't and wouldn't do, in Uvalde TX. Eli showed the ignorant cowards how a dynamic situation should be handled. When he solved a crime in seconds, with excellent judgement and tactical skill, he also embarrassed LEO's all over the country. Maybe his example will turn a few departments around...

From: Thornton
07-Aug-22
Don't forget the guy in Colorado that shot the active shooter last year and was later killed by police because he was mistaken for the active shooter.: https://www.courthousenews.com/cop-who-killed-hero-who-stopped-active-shooter-sued/

"The FBI has acknowledged the important role civilian intervention can play in ending high-profile shooting incidents. FBI’s “Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2016 and 2017” report stated,

Armed and unarmed citizens engaged the shooter in 10 incidents. They safely and successfully ended the shootings in eight of those incidents. Their selfless actions likely saved many lives. The enhanced threat posed by active shooters and the swiftness with which active shooter incidents unfold support the importance of preparation by law enforcement officers and citizens alike.

Moreover, research conducted by Economist John R. Lott suggests that the FBI tally of armed citizens stopping active shooters is an undercount.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20220725/another-good-guy-with-a-gun-stops-the-bad-guy

From: Beendare
07-Aug-22
Wow, this took a turn for the worst.

I think BEG nailed it with his comment that was lost in this thread:

.(When the shit hits the fan) “They say instead, you will fall back to your level of training. “

From: JSW
07-Aug-22
To answer the question, Yes, but......

I generally conceal carry a LCP 380 which is not accurate enough for 40 yards, more like 25 yards.

Just about every other handgun I own, absolutely. On a human size target 100 yards with any of my .44's or .454's would be expected. I practice at 100 yards with milk jugs and do very well off hand.

From: Orion
09-Aug-22
I wouldn't get too riled up fellas there is a video of a 12 year old girl completing the challenge with a Sig p365

From: Grey Ghost
09-Aug-22
What seems to be lost by some is the difference between target practice and a high pressure life threatening situation. Unless you’ve been in a similar situation, you can’t say with any certainty how you’d perform.

Matt

From: Thornton
09-Aug-22
You continually minimize our responses to the question, probably in part that you question what you would even do Grey Ghost. I know for a fact what I'd do. Per the NRA stats, plenty of other people have done the exact same thing. And, as I said and showed, the very act of completing the drill on a target is very easy for some. My question to you is, what would you do if the guy in front of you collapsed and wasn't breathing? My guess is you'd fumble around with your phone as minutes ticked by, and even if first responders got a pulse back, the guy would still be brain dead because you didn't start compressions. I deal with life and death every day I work, and responding quickly in high adrenaline situations is a must, or I get fired. If there is a code blue on the cardiac floor a quarter mile down several hallways, and its my turn that day to respond, I have to run down the hall with the doctor while lugging an airway box.

From: bigeasygator
09-Aug-22
I wouldn't get too riled up fellas there is a video of a 12 year old girl completing the challenge with a Sig p365

So this makes it easy?? Who's the 12 year old girl? I compete with the USPSA Ladies Carry Optics National Champion. She won it when she was 14. She can shoot circles around 99.9999% of the shooters in the world.

Sure she would crush this drill...but she makes everything look easy. Doesn't mean that it is.

From: Orion
09-Aug-22
Like I said you need to relax this is not the hardest feat in the world. We know you compete we get it lots of guys compete lots of guys don't compete that can shoot better then the competition crew. There are lots of skilled and competent shooters out there. There are also lots of people who can shoot under pressure and duress.

From: Rocky D
09-Aug-22
“ There are lots of skilled and competent shooters out there.”

I call bullshite, not a lot of forty yard pistol shots and damn sure not a lot that can do what the kid did in the situation that he did it!

Actually, there’s not even a lot of people qualified to discuss the shot.

From: fuzzy
09-Aug-22
^yep

From: spike78
09-Aug-22
Yes but you can compare those pro shooters to a pro bow shooter who would shake so bad on a buck they would miss. The very idea of people capable of the 40 yard shot does not compare when there is a person shooting or shooting back at you. It’s just absurd to think that. Some people may compose themselves but most will not.

From: keepemsharp
09-Aug-22
A fact that never makes the news is the number of firearm confrontations that are difussed by an armed individual where no shot is fired. No blood shed so the news folks don't care. If you get to do this successfully be the first one to call 911.

09-Aug-22
After calling your attorney

From: Rocky D
09-Aug-22
If you are involved in an incident try to prolong a official statement as long as possible.

From: Thornton
09-Aug-22
"Not a lot of people qualified to discuss the shot".. interesting we just hired a street paramedic from another city for the ER. He was tired of the crappy shifts and high stress. We were trading stories on gunshot wounds we've treated, and talking about pistols, the Dicken Drill, and general accuracy of the cops. This paramedic has treated more GSWs than I have. The first thing he said was "the cops around here can't shoot worth shit". He basically said that if the perp was moving, he usually survived most of the time. The last guy he treated had 2 cops empty mags at him and he suffered being shot in the thigh, and 3 times in both hands. Goes along with my experience guiding 2 SWAT sniper that couldn't hit a buck running straight away uphill at 100 yards. Who are we looking for here Mr. Rocky? Jack Reacher? Rambo? The NRA says 8 out of 10 bystanders did it between 2016 and 2017.

From: Thornton
09-Aug-22
One of the most well documented mass shootings and probably the first mass shooting was the Texas A&M massacre in 1966. Multiple civilians returned fire. I saw one video of a professor pulling a model 94 Winchester out of his office closet and returning fire on the clock tower. There was even a civilian that joined 2 cops to charge up the stairwell and end the shooter's life. Just normal people, doing what needed to be done.

From: Rocky D
10-Aug-22
“ Mr. Rocky? Jack Reacher? Rambo? The NRA says 8 out of 10 bystanders did it between 2016 and 2017.”

The common man steps but had Eli been common the outcome would probably be much different.

As far as discussion goes, How many people do you wanna hear talk about elk hunting but they haven’t killed, hunted, or ever have felt the excitement of one coming in bugling.

Now, you get the idea…

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