Sitka Gear
Another Grizzz Attack
Bears
Contributors to this thread:
BULELK1 27-Aug-22
Rocky D 27-Aug-22
Rocky D 27-Aug-22
fubar racin 27-Aug-22
JL 27-Aug-22
Fuzz 27-Aug-22
LBshooter 27-Aug-22
APauls 27-Aug-22
Beendare 27-Aug-22
Catscratch 27-Aug-22
azelkhntr 27-Aug-22
Beendare 27-Aug-22
Corax_latrans 27-Aug-22
TGbow 27-Aug-22
BULELK1 28-Aug-22
Goelk 28-Aug-22
Rocky D 28-Aug-22
Inshart 28-Aug-22
BULELK1 29-Aug-22
Catscratch 29-Aug-22
JL 02-Sep-22
KHNC 02-Sep-22
Corax_latrans 03-Sep-22
JL 03-Sep-22
Thornton 03-Sep-22
DanaC 03-Sep-22
JL 03-Sep-22
DanaC 03-Sep-22
From: BULELK1
27-Aug-22

BULELK1's Link
This is why ya practice with your pistol Before needing it!

I recently sold my 9mm and went with the Kimber RMEF 10mm, so this is a confidence builder for me on a new pistol and caliber.

Good luck, Robb

From: Rocky D
27-Aug-22
Relentless in training and unyielding in battle!!!

27-Aug-22
Rocky, another good one is “There are no advanced tactics, only the fundamentals mastered”

I use a (Mantis) device for dry fire practice. It’s the best way I’ve found for maintaining skills. It attaches to the rail and gives feedback to an app on what you were doing before and during the shot sequence. Grip, torque, trigger pull. It’s worth every penny for the quality practice. Between live fire drills.

From: Rocky D
27-Aug-22
Alt, Mantis X is awesome. A friend’s assessment of the Mantis.

“Mantis X is awesome. I have about 20k shots on them. Short version is it gives all the movement during 0.35 seconds of the shot. 0.25 before and 0.10 after.

You get to see highly accurate movement path to diagnose issues. Score is based off that movement. The vibration from the striker in a glock can cost you a tenth. A 100 is absolutely zero perceivable movement So all dry fire can be logged, scored and reviewed.

You can also use it to validate gun stuff like muzzle devices, different ammo types and shooter stability Weather is OK but everything else is pretty shitty As in validate do you mean the effects there of? And... You can run it live. So you could, over time, know that a score of 40 will get you a hit on E type at X range but to hit targets at Y range you need a 80. Truth. So mantis in the squads, with new simulation with hard shooting, fire control and practice, and you can fix a lot of problems One problem with Mantis though. It's app based and Bluetooth. But, they have the ability to make Army only app, and have dedicated tablet per squad that doesn't store on the cloud. And they can do secured network or the personal Bluetooth like thing Army made Yep. Imagine if you had to shoot at 92+ before you could go into the simulator. Then in the simulator, you had to print 2 MOA groups to go on, maintain 3 MOA throughout table 2, hold 92 for table 3 and 4, then qualify. And, you turn them on for collective and see dudes go from 92 to 13 under stress. Joe fires 60 rounds in live fire all in the teens. He ain't hitting shit. Pitch the squad average in the AAR. Just that number being put on a board in the head shed would make good squad leaders compete. I have about 20 shots on them. Short version is it gives all the movement during 0.35 seconds of the shot. 0.25 before and 0.10 after.

You get to see highly accurate movement path to diagnose issues. Score is based off that movement. The vibration from the striker in a glock can cost you a tenth. A 100 is absolutely zero perceivable movement So all dry fire can be logged, scored and reviewed.

You can also use it to validate gun stuff like muzzle devices, different ammo types and shooter stability Weather is OK but everything else is pretty shitty! And... You can run it live. So you could, over time, know that a score of 40 will get you a hit on E type at X range but to hit targets at Y range you need a 80. Truth. So mantis in the squads, with new simulation with hard shooting, fire control and practice, you could solve a lot of problems. Yep. Imagine if you had to shoot at 92+ before you could go into the simulator. Then in the simulator, you had to print 2 MOA groups to go on, maintain 3 MOA throughout table 2, hold 92 for table 3 and 4, then qualify. And, you turn them on for collective and see dudes go from 92 to 13 under stress. Joe fires 60 rounds in live fire all in the teens. He ain't hitting shit. Pitch the squad average in the AAR. Just that number being put on a board in the head shed would make good squad leaders compete!”

From: fubar racin
27-Aug-22
Robb how do you like your camp guard 10? Mine is by far the most accurate handgun I own but took a lot of rounds before it would run makes me nervous to carry in a life or death situation.

From: JL
27-Aug-22
From the article. IMO...people in a situation and having this thought in the back of their minds may make them hesitate and get killed. There was also a great point about the bear spray/wind problem.

""Next morning we met with the wardens, a state and a federal warden, plus Wyoming’s big-game biologist. I was kind of nervous, but I knew it was the right thing. The night before, the state warden had told me the process. He told me, ‘You have the right to defend your life, but we’ll treat this as a federal investigation because you may have killed an endangered species. You will be under federal investigation.’ I mean, I was hot about that. Here I had just about been killed by this bear, and I’d be treated like a criminal?""

From: Fuzz
27-Aug-22
Thanks for posting... I encourage everyone to read the article that Bullelk shared the link to. It definitely has changed my perspective and I will be sure to "practice with a purpose " before heading to Kodiak next October!

From: LBshooter
27-Aug-22
Well it wasn't his time to die and luckily his buddy was there. I would like to know the rounds he used, he said full metal jacket which wouldn't be my first choice. Something hotter like a buffalo bore would be better. Unfortunate that she had been wounded prior and had she not been shot by some moron she probably wouldn't have attacked. I know it's armchair quarterbacking but I have a hard time with leaving that bear and not knowing if you killed it, and considering you had two guns and sight of the bear I think it would have been best to finish her off so that your. Not putting another hunter/hiker who may not be armed in jeapordy . Glad it worked out for him, and when a law enforcement officer says your being investigated for a possible crime it's time to shut up. Good on the hunter for being prepared with his pistol, I couldn't imagine being under that ins of stress, I'd say it was a happy ending. When are the powers that be going to figure out that Grizzlies aren't endangered and need to be hunted to control. The numbers and to make them scared of man?

From: APauls
27-Aug-22
wow. Great article! Wish we could use pistols in Canada. That whole wind issue almost never gets brought up in debates. I mean theoretically if it's a windy day bear spray is like 40% useless out of the gate depending on attack direction.

From: Beendare
27-Aug-22
Good lessons, thx Robb for sharing.

From: Catscratch
27-Aug-22
You all have sparked my interest on this Mantis thing. Just curious, would you be able to visually see the same info dry firing with a Lazer bore sight in?

From: azelkhntr
27-Aug-22
Wow! Practice does make perfect. I'm glad they came out of that A-Ok. My personal view is as his, gun first bear spray 2nd. The only issue I have with Sam is his lack of ethics. He made a killing shot on a bull, failed to recover it, but kept on hunting the next day. Thats a big red X in my book. You had your shot and made it. You should always punch your tag and call it done after such a failure. If you won't be an ethical hunter, then you're just a shooter. IMO.

27-Aug-22
Catscratch, you can still use a laser device. The mantis measures muzzle movement.for example, If your grip isn’t correct and your pulling the trigger to the side or down. It shows that.

And gives you data in many different forms. A simple visual bullseye target for visual people. And or data tables for numbers driven people. It’s a great tool. Not the entire enchilada for training but a good additional tool.

From: Beendare
27-Aug-22
Dry fire with a laser bullet is one of the best practice routines ever invented. The laser gives you feedback on barrel movement.

I have the Mantis but rarely set it up...instead I shoot at Football players or the folks on TV while watching a game...my wife is immune to it now- it used to bug her.

I haven't seen the 10mm version laser......but have a couple of the 9mm and essentially its the same Glock platform but in a slightly smaller frame. They are like $16 on Amazon.

.

27-Aug-22
“I have a hard time with leaving that bear and not knowing if you killed it, and considering you had two guns and sight of the bear I think it would have been best to finish her off so that your. Not putting another hunter/hiker who may not be armed in jeapordy .”

I agree in principle. 100%. But by the same token… I have to be honest and say that I’m not sure I’d be up for going on a Griz hunt with a handgun. Especially not a wounded one. That doesn’t like me. And might not be alone, as this one apparently was not.

And don’t forget that at least one of them got a pretty good face-full of spray. Not sure how bad off he was, so it might or might not have been 2 on 1 at that point, and her cub is a wildcard. But it would sure be easier to surprise a bear from down-wind, so having to spray into the wind maybe isn’t so unlikely?

Anyway - a lot of considerations before you go after a wounded bear.

Makes me wonder though…. I guess I have always assumed that a bear that had been hit hard with spray would be LESS likely to pose a threat to the next person, but that a wounded bear would be MORE. But I don’t think anybody really has good data on that….

From: TGbow
27-Aug-22
I don't hunt in Grizz country..I think I would stay a nervous wreck

From: BULELK1
28-Aug-22

BULELK1's Link
Y'all are Welcome.

Still getting used to it Chris.

Less than a month of ownership.

Good looking Pistol for sure.

I'll have to look into that Mantis gig--Thanks for the Heads-Up.

Good luck, Robb

From: Goelk
28-Aug-22
Wow amazing Thanks for sharing

From: Rocky D
28-Aug-22
“ Dry fire with a laser bullet is one of the best practice routines ever invented. The laser gives you feedback on barrel movement.”

I agree but it doesn’t really give you measurable feedback that you can monitor your improvement over a period of time.

It all depends on how much you really want improve.

If people would do any dry fire practice they’d probably be a hell of a lot better than they are but that’s not the case normally!

From most people the mantis is not worth the money because they wouldn’t use it anyway!

From: Inshart
28-Aug-22
Good read, absolutely an eye opener, for sure.

From: BULELK1
29-Aug-22
Learn something new every day is always a good thing!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Fella's,

Robb

From: Catscratch
29-Aug-22
As I think about this Mantis thing I would love to have one on a bow or shotgun during a hunt! I can punch paper or ding a gong all day, but it would be cool to have an app that showed what I did in the moment of truth... such as when that monster buck is standing at 12yds and you go into instinct mode. I've shot deer that I was so worked up that I didn't remember the site picture on the shot. That would be cool data to have!

From: JL
02-Sep-22

JL's Link
The bro sent me this from yesterday. I think they got lucky the spray scared the grizz.

"" Grizzly encounter resolves in cloud of bear spray

Rob Chaney 11 hrs ago

"A near-disaster became a testimonial for the effectiveness of bear spray when two University of Montana men met a real-life angry grizzly bear last weekend.

UM Forestry School Dean Alan Townsend and Lubrecht Experimental Forest Associate Director Scott Ferrenberg were doing some archery scouting on Sunday near Lake Upsata. The two men were working their way up from a pothole pond to a copse of trees around lunchtime when the worst six seconds of their lives popped out of the brush.

“We were making complacency mistakes,” Townsend said. “Both of us are very experienced in the outdoors doing this kind of thing. We were walking quietly along game trails, looking for signs, and getting a little too cavalier in thinking the combination of midday sunshine and being down in the more open part of that country was lower risk.”

The men had seen a couple black bears, but assumed they were close enough to Highway 200 that bigger predators wouldn’t be around. People are also reading…

“When the bear popped up, I was slightly upslope of Alan, forming a triangle off my right shoulder,” Ferrenberg said. “There was a loud growl and breaking limbs. I swiveled my head and my first response was — this is a grizzly bear, this is a game-changer.”

“I was about 25 or 30 feet behind,” Townsend said. “It took a step or two toward Scott in what might have been a bluff charge. Then it looked downhill at me and just came for me. That was a full-blown rush.”

Townsend had both a pistol and a can of bear spray with him, and a pair of binoculars around his neck. As the bear charged, Townsend said he got mentally tangled in which option to grab, and then physically tangled in the straps.

“I made the mistake of not having a clear plan in advance what my primary defense tools should be,” Townsend said. “Not having that front of mind, I reached across for the sidearm but found my arm blocked by the binoculars.

“By that point he was coming for me, and I needed to buy myself a couple seconds,” Townsend continued. “I turned and ran a few steps to a small grove of trees, hoping that might at least slow it down a bit. We all know you can’t run from a grizzly.”

Ferrenberg thinks the grizzly switched from bluffing to aggression the instant it realized it had two opponents rather than one. It pivoted toward Townsend, and Ferrenberg ran toward it with his bear spray unholstered. He was able to send a broadside blast of the irritating gas just ahead of the grizzly’s head. The spray contained a bright orange dye, so he could see the 6-foot cloud it made.

“It was really fascinating,” Ferrenberg said. “I had this idea that it (the grizzly) had committed its weight to a strong sideways turn. But when it met the spray, it almost did a 180 — just up and spun out of there in an instant. After seeing it do those gymnastics, I realized that weight idea was really silly.”

Ferrenberg was well-versed in past reports of grizzlies continuing to attack even when hit by multiple bullets.

“It was such a profound reaction, for an animal that can endure great pain,” Ferrenberg said. “It wasn’t that its eyes were burning. I think it knew the scenario had changed. The bear never wanted this encounter. It just wanted a way out of there and it saw an escape route.”

He also had a long familiarity with firearms, having a father and grandfather with military experience.

“I know the ability to be accurate when the adrenaline is pumping is something only special operators train for,” Ferrenberg said. “People think if they get good on paper targets, the firearm will work. But even with years of experience, I wouldn’t have been able to help Alan in that scenario. I would have had to fire in his direction. If he’s being mauled, what am I going to do? Shoot him and the bear? I was struck by how much in control I was with the pepper spray.”

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks Region 2 Bear Manager Jamie Jonkel said the incident resolved as well as anyone could have hoped for.

“When I’m in the woods, I carry both spray and a sidearm,” Jonkel said. “But the go-to is spray first.”

Jonkel suspects the grizzly might have been a sow with a cub to protect, but can’t be certain. He does know the foothills of the Bob Marshall Wilderness Complex north of Highway 200 have at least three family groups of grizzly sows and cubs in the Ovando area, along with multiple lone grizzlies. Helmville and the Clearwater Junction vicinities have equal numbers of families and solo grizzlies.

That’s an issue for anyone scouting in anticipation of Montana’s big-game archery backcountry season, which starts Sunday Sept. 4, or general archery on Sept. 15. Jonkel said the hot, dry August has affected many bear food sources.

“Hunters are going to see more bear activity in the hidey-hole pockets where the bull elk hang out, because that’s where the coolness and berries and natural bear foods are. The berry crop isn’t the greatest this year, but it’s still OK.

“As a result, we will have a lot of bears concentrated,” Jonkel said. “If you find a huckleberry patch in the high cirques where the elk are bugling, you might be dealing with twice the number of grizzlies as normal. In the low elevations, they’re going to be in riparian sites and ag fields that are heavily watered.”

Both Townsend and Ferrenberg were amazed at the size of the grizzly.

“I’m 6-foot-4,” Ferrenberg said. “That bear’s snout standing on four feet would be around my sternum.”

“You have all these things that run through your head, thinking this is not good — damn that’s a magnificent animal,” Townsend said. “It was an absolutely beautiful bear.”

From: KHNC
02-Sep-22
F those bears! And BTW Jaquomo says pistols are useless and for using on a bear while he is on top mauling you. Says to go with bear spray. Sorry, I can draw and accurately fire my weapon from a chest rig at 20 yards in 1.75 seconds. Time to draw and deploy a can of spray is more like 4-5 seconds. Im going with my weapon Every time!

Unfortunately we are hunting in Griz country week after next. Fortunately we are going elk hunting. Double edge sword.

03-Sep-22
Yeah, what does Lou know, anyway??

LOL

I do wish spray was as quick and easy to bring into action as a sidearm, and I know that it’s not fool-proof, but… A big ol’ cloud of spray vs a projectile with a diameter of less than 1/2” that has to hit a moving target about the size of a softball…. Which is a target that an awful lot of the pistol shooters that I’ve seen cannot hit at 15 yards on a range, no pressure.

I’m thinkin’ that you’d have to be pretty much Hollywood Good to stop a griz that really had it in for you….. You know, like the guys who can fan 10 rounds out of a Peacemaker in a second and a half and 12 Bad Guys fall down and none of ‘em ever even twitch.

The more I think it through, the more I come down on the side of suspenders and a belt, if for no other reason than which way the wind blows.

From: JL
03-Sep-22
Remember this encounter??

From: Thornton
03-Sep-22
I see the guy was brainwashed into thinking he couldn't be accurate because he wasn't a "trained military operator". Dumbest thing I've read all week. I guess he better stick with his bear spray.

From: DanaC
03-Sep-22

DanaC's Link
Here in Mass. bears are still a minor nuisance but coyotes are becoming more of a threat lately.

.

"Coyote bites man in Cohasset, off-leash dog dies after attack from pack of 7 coyotes "

From: JL
03-Sep-22
Reading some of the comments....does Mass have a coyote season?

From: DanaC
03-Sep-22
Yes we do. Up in Vermont there is no 'closed' season on 'em.

There *may* be a few people around here who ignore the regs on 'em. I wouldn't know...

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