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Broadhead Tuning Question
I'm trying like heck to avoid a mechanical....
I am shooting a Hoyt Rx7 (IBO of 343) at 65 lbs and a GoldTip 340, carbon to carbon of 28" with a 125 gr head. With the little blazer vanes. My first time shooting them.
I am consistently right with my broadheads (started at like 6"). I started moving my rest to the left slightly. It moved my field tip and broadhead POI slightly towards each other. So I moved my rest slightly more. I am getting occasionally erratic arrow flight now and my POI is not yet together.
Is it reasonable that I am underspined?
You are moving the the rest the wrong way. Broadheads hitting right of field points is like a tail left bareshaft where you move the rest in small increments to the right. To back up a bit, have you tried shooting like three fletched field points and then a bareshaft to see how they are grouping. Ideally, you want the bareshaft to hit with the fletched arrows, straight in, no tail left or right.
I'm shootin about the same as you and i went from 350 to a 300 spined VAP TKO and it made a huge difference with my fixed blades. Good luck.
yeager...I went to Wasp's website and this is what it said: "Start by moving your rest one hash mark, usually 1/16-inch on most rests, to the right (always make rest movement opposite of where your broadhead arrow is hitting, both horizontally and vertically). "
and this was from bowhunting.net that was consistent with that: "Bob Mizek, Production Manager for New Archery Products, taught me a simple technique that really works. Its seems like magic, but it’s not. It is simply amazing how much difference tiny changes in rest position have on broadhead group location. Basically, if your broadheads group separately from your field points, move your rest very slightly in the direction you want your hunting arrows to go."
I do not claim to be an expert though!
I think you verbiage is wrong Yeager he was moving his rest the right way if his field points are left of his fixed blades he needs to move left
Checkout "Inside Out Precision" on YouTube. Guy knows his stuff. He says to move the rest towards the direction of the wayward broadheads, because what is causing it to hit left or right is a tail kick as it leaves the rest. Moving it the direction you want the broadheads to go exaggerates the tail kick. Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting his words. I chased my broadheads with my rest as he suggested and my problem was solved.
I think you’re underspined and that should be pretty easy to figure out by dropping point weight and either shooting a bareshaft or through paper. Either that or you’re torquing the grip.
Murph has it correct. In order to get your broadheads back to your field points, move your rest in micro increments toward your field points. If that doesn’t help….
SIP has it correct too. Go back to square one. Center your rest. Paper tune. Check your cam timing. Shoot again.
Easy way to check spine is to turn your bow down.
You can always turn it back up if it’s not a spine issue.
Make sure you don't have vane contact.
I’m am shooting the Ventum 30 pro and the initial shop setup had me to close to the riser at just 3/4” off I was getting contact with the cables using TAC driver 225 in a four fletch made tweaks at home and fixed issue
If you are right handed and your arrows impact right of your point of aim you have a weak dynamic spine reaction. It doesn't matter what kind of point you are shooting.
When you say "little Blazer Vanes", which ones are you talking about? The standard 2", or smaller?
When you moved the rest left the second time, did they get closer together or stay the same distance apart?
My first response is to lower the draw weight and check again. This will identify weak spine. (you're currently on the fence) & I would suggest stiffer shafts, lower draw weight or lighter heads.
Double check fletch contact on the right side vane.
Hand torque is very likely. "gripping" the bow will cause broadheads to fly right every time. (right handed shooter)
If that bow had yokes, I would go there next...
You can find experts saying to move the rest in either direction. If you are starting with a good paper tune mark that spot on your rest and experiment. One thing I ran into with my setup for this year was trying to use lighted nocks. They were a little longer than the standard nocks and obviously slightly heavier. I think the difference was the longer nock was getting pinched in my string loop. Pay attention to the way your release twists the loop and if its putting any side pressure on the nock that could be an issue.
Thank yall for the feedback. This bow has a much lower brace height than my previous so I suspect it is magnifying the "me" issue. But I also believe something else is contributing.
The vanes I am shooting are the 2" blazers, straight fletched. I do not believe I am getting cable contact. I am paying attention to my level but may be grabbing the bow on release, but I don't think so.
I have been doing this for a long time. I am amazed at how little I have learned along the way on bow tuning. But I also have shot feathers that would let me shoot a skillet on the end of the arrow.
I will try a 100 gr broadhead and then turn the bow down and see if that brings my points together. If so, i will likely go to a 300 arrow and try that with the 125s and cranking the draw weight back up.
I first make sure that my bow is set to specs-A to A, cam timing, etc. Be meticulous here. This is the foundation. If it's not right, the rest of my explanation won't be either. Hoyt recommends a center shot of about 3/4". Start there. Here's where opinions differ, but this is what I do. I start with bullet holes through paper with FPs. I then do walk back tuning with FPs out to 50 yards. I then start at 20 and get the FPs and BHs together. Move the rest so that you are moving the BHs to the FPs. I do elevation first. Move to 30 and do the same. At this distance I shoot all BHs to determine if they are grouping together. If it's good here, it should be good on out. Anal as I am, I verify the BHs at 40, 50, and 60. I don't know if it still exists, but Easton had a publication on this. One other thought that occurred to me is cam lean. On the newer bows you may want (have) to yoke tune to get the right/left bullet holes (if it's a tail high or low, you need to move the rest up or down) through paper with FPs.
For everyone saying that you need to move your rest left and the ones saying to move your rest right, you are both right. Typical school of thought, like on Wasp's website, is the if BH is right you move your rest left. However, a BH impacting right is a tail left reaction. For this reaction you move your rest right. Bare shafters are hell bent on moving the rest based on the tear and broadhead tuners always want to move the rest in the direction you want the broadhead to move. I have had bows tune both ways. I usually tune by moving my rest based on correcting the tail right/tail left reaction and then if that makes it worse I go the other way.
With that particular system, if my rest wasn't running pretty much where I expected it to be (about 13/16" from the riser not pad) I'd shim the cams a touch to the right.
If your DL is greater than about 29" you could be slightly underspined too.
I'm shooting the same bow. DL of 29" @ 72# with 300 Kinetic Kaos at 28". With three 2-inch Blazers (helical) and 100 grain points. Had no trouble getting BH hitting with FP when I first set it up. But I will say that a 1/16" move on the rest is a very large move....too large. I usually go with moves of roughly 10-15 thousandths at a time. What is the centershot distance you are using currently? I ended up at just about exactly 13/16" (measured off the metal surface, not the black insert). That is where I would start if I was making a recommendation. And with nock height dead level.
You said that your shafts are straight fletched. You'd need consistently perfect form to shoot broadheads with no helical or offset. Which a few can achieve at the range and a very rare few while hunting, but broadhead tipped arrows require some spin.
I would think(hope) they are straight-offset, which would spin.
Another thing you could check is which way your arrow wants to spin coming off the string. Put a mark on the top of the shaft and shoot it into a target from 3' and see what way it spins. Match your offset or helical to that direction. My arrows naturally spin left so when I shoot a right offset vane there is actually a point where the arrow stops spinning and then turns back the opposite way. Put a fixed head on the front of the arrow and you are asking for trouble at that point.
"so when I shoot a right offset vane there is actually a point where the arrow stops spinning and then turns back the opposite way. ".......I'm guessing not. The spin imparted by the surface area of the vane or feather would never allow the arrow shaft to spin against the helical or offset direction.
Correct. It's hard to believe that "natural spin" wives tale ever gained any following. Some youtubers will do and say anything to try to be important...
Your arrow reaches peak speed at the very moment it leaves the string. From that point on, it starts slowing down. So, while at peak speed there is also peak drag on the fletching. It's not possible for it to spin against the offset/helical of the fletching as it leaves the bow.
^^^^. Oh boy X-man, you better have your flak suit done up tight!!
But I agree with you :)
Oh bareshafts spin. At least in my experience. When this subject first started gaining steam I did some testing with bare shafts to satisfy my own curiosity. I attached a piece of string on the tail end of a bare shaft and shot it from different yardages. And sure enough, when I would walk to the target butt, the string would be wrapped around the shaft in a consistent direction. Didn't change the choice of wing selection/offset that I use at all.
Yes, I will agree that a bare shaft will spin. A properly fletched shaft will not change direction.... Yes, I have seen the youtube videos...
Check your grip. Improper grip will be magnified with broad heads.
Im just basing that off a slow motion video taken with my iphone. If anyone would like to see it send me a PM.
Paper tune your bow. I was having the same issue. I did the adjustment on the arrow rest. I chased the issue for days before I broke down and figured out a setup to hold a small sheet of paper. After about a half dozen to a dozen shots it was fixed. I so wished I had done the paper tuning earlier!
“It's not possible for it to spin against the offset/helical of the fletching as it leaves the bow.“
Mine stops spinning left and starts to reverse due to rh fletch drag at about 11’.
Candor - have you tried other fixed blade broadheads or are you only trying one particular model with your setup and if it doesn't work, you'll go to a mechanical? I collect fixed blade broadheads and shoot about 10 different models to see which flies the best out of my current setup. Last year's winner was the QAD Exodus. If you can afford it, trying other broadheads might lead to a remedy.
This year's contenders
This year's contenders
Thanks Bob. I was explaining my arrow flight to the guys at the shop and I said it’s like the arrow pauses on its was to the target. We videoed it in slow motion and sure enough I was seeing the arrow when it was between rotations.
So I have shot a few different heads. I get much better flight with the Magnus Stinger. Worst was the VPA and middle was the QAD Exodus. Even with really good flight, the Stinger still was not shooting with the same POI as my field tips.
I’ve listened to a lot of people who have confidence in their head of choice and I’ve tried several but IMO to this day 80yds slick trick 100 gr standard my trophy room is filled with animals I’ve killed with that head never had it fail me not sure why I was ever looking for the better mouse trap
Where do yall buy fletched arrows with a helical or offset? I used to get them from Lancaster and they were custom order but they do not appear to offer the same service.
Have you ruled out hand torque? Easy way to do that is deliberately torque it one way and then the other and see what PO is.
I bring that up because Hoyt’s do not like heel pressure from your hand.
Since your bow is an RX7 you do not have split yokes. So that is not an option for you.
Things to check for. 1 torque 2 under spined arrows 3 fletching contact 4 cam timing 5 nick travel 6 center shot.
As far as some broad heads flying better then others. It’s simple. Some are more forgiving then others.
It was said above. You will want helical or offset in your vanes.
Candor- Pick up an Arizona EZ Fletch. I do all my own now with helical.
Candor, Black Ovis Custom Arrow Builder. I haven't used them but have friends who do and are very happy with them.
At my link...